# General Topics > Vivarium, Terrarium & Enclosure Discussion >  Argh, take note, why water features suck

## Amy

So apparently the water area in my grey tree frog tank has started leaking into the drainage layer and swamping my substrate.  I noticed the last few days that the water level was dropping more than should account for evaporation, even with a heater running.  So I took a peek at my drainage layer, and sure enough, it was about 3/4 full after only being "moist," no noticeable water level, just a week ago.  So it's a slow leak, but a leak nonetheless, looks like that will be my unfortunate project today.  Also realizing I need a bigger qt tank, my four greys are going to be pissed shoved into a 10 gallon for a couple days while I fix this.

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## Josh

Dang, that really blows  :Frown: . I hope you get it fixed without too much effort

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## Amy

Well, I'm going to have to scrape out all the silicone because unfortunately, you can't just patch it.  Just unsure of how this happened, I used LOADS of silicone and made sure it was thick on both sides to prevent this from happening.  Months without an issue.  Just irritated right now!  I drained the drainage layer last night and it is about half full again.

Edit - on second thought, I'm just going to keep draining the drainage layer as it leaks into it until it stops so I can guesstimate at least what level the leak is, then I can rip apart a little less.  If it's at the bottom though, I'm out of luck.

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## Amy

My nat geo digital hygro/thermometer also stopped working yesterday.  I took it apart and it was all rusted inside and the battery was corroded.  Apparently, despite saying it measures humidity up to 90%, it's not made to stay in humid environments.  I will buy another one, but will put it in to check things and then pull it back out, I left mine in 24/7.  I guess I shouldn't have spent so much money yesterday setting up a betta!

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## Lija

Yeah..... I can write a book on why water features suck lol

 Amy..... Mmmmm.... I tried to fix mine..... Like really tried..... Like scraping, glue, etc, shall I say it again.... I really tried....Ended up completely redoing my tank telling myself why on earth I was trying to fix and wasted so much time lol


just saying  :Smile: 

 oh and digital with probes are better,

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## Josh

Yeah, my nat geo still "works", but I've noticed that it doesn't read quite correctly. Right after misting, it says 99%, but the screen top is only half covered. Also, I've aired out the tank, and it hasn't dropped below 80%, which is pretty unbelievable. I just used it when I was first misting the tank, and now just in case there's a huge swing. The coloring of my frog (lol) and the condition of my plants really helps me, particularly my tilly and broms. If I ever do a glass or acrylic divider, I think I'll just have an aquarium shop do it. I don't trust my skills enough. Hopefully the leak is up high  :Encouragement:

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## Amy

Ugh Lija, it really stinks!  I love the water area and can't understand why it started leaking suddenly after months.  The amount of silicone I used...it should not be possible!  Making me rethink the other tank I have planned out and do something simple instead, even if it means daily water bowl changes.

I have a digital with probes, the humidity measurement is never accurate.  I take it out of the tank between uses, but as soon as I drop it in the tank, it shoots up to 99%.  I don't really need to measure the humidity, I usually have a good idea of where it is at without measuring, I just like having it as a backup.  So maybe I'll just stick with what I have.  So long as I know where the temps are at, which the probe reads accurately and I can move it around the tank, I'm good.

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## Josh

Yeah, I worry more about temps than humidity. With humidity, if plants thrive, the frog usually thrives. With temp, though, you could have a 10 degree drop or raising, and the plants wouldn't show it at all. You might just find it easier to do a leca layer style tank, and still have the water feature, I don't know.

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## Lija

just get infrared gun and use it for all your tanks  :Smile:  for humidity, with experience you just know if it s good or not.
honestly I have thermometers/ hydrometers only in tanks that are plugged into hydrotherms and only because these things read that  :Smile:  I do check tanks close to daily with temp gun.

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## Amy

This may be a really stupid question, but will the infrared read water temp?  I need something for the betta tank I set up also, so if that covers all of them, I'd be very happy lol

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## Lija

It reads anything, but on a surface.

oh I lied.... Pardon me, forgot, I have a few glass thermometers  :Smile:  the floating kind. Paul said these are the best for anything.
i believe 2$ at Walmart. These would totally work for betta or frog tank  :Smile:

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## Carlos

A Floating thermometer like Lija mentioned is best deal for Betta.  Sorry for water leak  :Frown:  ; but that is nature of silicone when used to build a "glass wall dam" in an aquarium/enclosure.  The issue is, new silicone wont stick well to old silicone or if any glass surface has a contaminant on it.  

For it not to leak you have to scrape off all old silicone so that none comes into contact with new one.  Also, after scrapping it; a cleaning with acetone (wear gloves and eye/breathing protection) to remove any contaminants and silicone remains is required  :Smile:  .

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## bill

For a betta tank, I would use a fluval nano thermometer. Small and unobtrusive. I use them in all my aquatic tanks. Infrared thermometer will read water temps. As long as the beam reflects, it will read. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Amy

The fix, before and after.




I originally had a flexible piece of plastic in there so I could have a curved water area.  I think the flexibility was my downfall.  The leak was slow but persistent, filling my drainage layer in about two days.  I wanted to be lazy in this fix and not rip everything out.  My mistake, as my plants are now in poor condition as a result.  

I ordered a piece of acrylic from Delvies Plastics, precut to the size I wanted.  Then I siliconed it in, in front of the previous barrier.  I had moved my aquatic plants out and into my betta tank, so I will probably just get more.  I'm happy with the results and so far, no leaks.  It is just under 5.5 inches deep and holds approximately 1.75 gallons of water.

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## Paul

That sucks big time Amy. Sorry to hear about your plants :/ I was never brave enough to divide a tank like that. the closest I could bring myself to try was doing a false bottom and just using the whole tank bottom as the reservoir, but even that has draw backs. All my tanks now have been converted to traditional drainage layer tanks and are drilled for drainage lol. In some of them I lowered the land and drainage in a corner (or in the mantella tank down the middle) to create a boggy section of soil for marginal plants and aquatic mosses. That will be the extent of complexity for me moving forward lol. I will leave water features and the like to better qualified people such as yourself  :Smile: 


Again sorry you had to go through this. I know the frustration all to well.

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## Amy

I love the divided tanks, that's why I went for it to begin with (knowing what kind of issues can arise.)  It looks really nice now other than all the poor plants.  At least it wasn't my frogs, and at least it wasn't my red eyed tree frog tank.  All of my "good" plants are in with the red eyes.  My greys are plant bullies so anything of quality doesn't get put in there.  I guess I can be thankful for that.  I had thought about removing the water area completely, but I hate hate hate hate hate having to do daily water changes.  Reaching into the bottom of that tank is the biggest pita.  So far, it held up overnight.  I have a piece of paper taped to the side of the tank that I marked out the water levels to make sure it doesn't drop too much LOL.

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## bill

I never liked the divided tanks. There are always 2 weak spots in them and there is no way around it. I'll take a false bottom over tank division for a deep water feature any day.  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Paul

What are the 2 weak spots?

I will give a Paludarium a shot again at some point, but for now plain ole Vivariums will work. 

Hope your plants recover for you. I'm with you though, much rather have to replace the plants than have hurt the frogs.

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## bill

The 2 weak spots are the bottom corners where the plexi meets the tanks original silicone seal. Unless you reseal the tank, those two little corners will always develop leaks. Silicone on silicone. Bad joo joo.  :Frown: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Paul

Ahh yep I hadn't thought of the silicon beads along the bottom edges of the tank.  Hope you have better luck this time around Amy.

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## Amy

Yeah, I'm sure I'll eventually face problems again with it, because of that.  Hopefully not until I'm bored of the tank and ready to do another build though!

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## bill

Well, if you are like me, that will be next month lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Amy

LOL Except I have the 24x18x24 that I need to get working on.  Planning on that one taking a while.  So if the grey tank doesn't hold up until I'm done with that, I will be switching back to a water bowl until the big red eye tank is done. I have so many build ideas running through my brain, I'm not even sure where to start haha.

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## bill

Welcome to my world!! Lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## AbranV

There must be something in the air! 

I was just getting ready to write a post about water features before I came across yours.  

I've spent the past two evenings banging my head against the wall trying to figure out my water feature! :Mad: 

It just sits there mocking me, knowing that this is the last major hurdle before the foam, paint, dirt and the rest of the artsy fun stuff.

I could almost swear that the way I have it set up right now, the pipes and tubing look to be configured into a PVC "hand" with a clear tube "middle finger"......... must be my imagination,  :Wink: 

Next one, oh yes the next one will be sooooo much easier right?  That's how it goes, right guys? They get easier to build the more you do,  right?......

Sorry, little tank stress mental breakdown.....

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## Paul

Unfortunately water features tend to be the hardest part of builds. They either work great or the mock you and kick your butt.

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## Amy

I was going to do a built-inwaterfall in the new red eye tank.  This has made me rethink that.  I think I will probably build some kind of stand alone fountain to help keep the humidity up.  That way, if it stops working, I can just pull it back out.  The red eyes really seem to ignore the water anyway, the humidity is high enough that their needs are satisfied.  The greys enjoy a good swim, so I like giving them that option.

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## Paul

I have been "Cheating" with my tanks lately. No water features, but I have been exposing parts of the drainage layer to let the water held in there be more exposed to the air and heat to help keep humidity up lol. I am done with water features in my tanks until I practice with them more and find a way to do it that I can succeed at more often than not. lol. Right now I suck at them and have had to just walk away and stick to similar builds....

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## bill

Oh waa waa waa, water features suck lol the problem with water features is that they are rarely planned out and tested well enough. They are easy if you keep a few things in mind, one being that you have to accept the fact that the water will go where IT wants, not where you want it to go. Another being that people tend to flow too much water, so it goes all over. Adding a backup flow control valve in the output tubing is so helpful because the flow control on most pumps sucks. This lets too much water flow and it gets everywhere. Respect the water, and it's power, test often, then test again, then test when the tank is complete, before you add plants. Adding items in the tank tends to change things. If all else fails and your water feature doesn't work as planned, work with it instead of trying to fix it.  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## AbranV

[QUOTE=deranged chipmunk;244136]Oh waa waa waa, water features suck lol the problem with water features is that they are rarely planned out and tested well enough.......


Amen chipmunk!

I thought I had it planned out but soon realized that I hadn't taken the flow adjustment knob into consideration. One little oversight and I've been at a standstill for three days now trying to make it work with the plumbing....  

 :Frown: 


One good thing to come out of this build.....Now I know to never ever ever ever ever use a submersible pump again. Canister filters from here on out!

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## Dendro Dave

I hit upon the trick of using the top of a medium or large exoterra and letting the pump dangle in the top/middle of the water column. Since sediment and junk tends to float on the top or sink to the bottom a pump is less likely to clog if it draws water from the middle or just under the surface. You can hide the guts/bottom of the waterfall with driftwood or something. Here is an example...


This tank also serves as an example of how I do ponds, which is similar to how others mentioned they do it. My pond reservoir shares its water with the false bottom. So I keep my false bottom fairly full most of the time. If you don't over mist you should never flood your tank, and the misting in conguntion with a larger volume of water makes evaporation and thus frequent topping off of the water less of an issue.

 If you do flood your tank... you're over misting  :Wink:  A mostly sealed viv with water in its drainage area will maintain humidity just fine (but I highly recommend some ventilation on every viv). You should hand mist or set an automated misting schedual that wets the surface of everything and a lil moisture will of course get into the substrate, but not be misting so much that everything is wet looking and saturated all day everyday. Moist substrate will keep ambient humidity in the green, the misting is for a temporary boost and to replenish the soil moisture. That is a healthy balance, saturated is not a healthy state for a viv or its inhabitants usually.

Oh and keeping your pond surfaces at or below the base of your substrate combats waters tendency to wick or craw out of the pond. If it does it goes immediately into the bottom most layer and the drier soil above absorbes it, but once that very bottom layer is moist the rate If any at which water wicks out keeps the upper levels of substrate moist but not saturated.

I'm not sure I'm explaining that well so here is an example:

Bury a bowl so the top of the water in the bowl/shoreline is pretty much at top of your dirt where moss and plants are... and watch the water "crawl" out and saturate the substrate from the top down.

Bury a bowl so that the top is even with the false bottom water level, and any creeping or crawling (wicking action), will be going straight into the bottom layer, and only very slowly working against gravity to moisten the upper levels of substrate... as long as you don't help it to much by over misting. Drilling a tank for overflow is nice and useful, but I've made dozens of successful vivs with water features capable of supporting tads or a few small fish with no filter in the last decade and never drilled a tank, or owned a drilled tank. 

Planting the pond, and letting the water mature over weeks or months till it finishes the nitrogen cycle and letting beneficial bacteria colonize will be enough filtration for tads and fish tolerant of low oxygen or capable of breathing through their mouth.  Add an air pump/stone for less tollerant fish. The key is not to over populate the pond and to let the water age. Usually stagnate scum will eventually disappear when the pond has aged enough. If it persists and/or you're impatient, throw some frogbit or salvia natens in there for the lily pad look and to hide the scum and help filter the water further. I stay away from duck weed. Since once it is in you never get it out unless you let the vivs dry and die completely.

I seal the driftwood, rock and/or foam shoreline enough to keep animals out of the false bottom but otherwise let water pass through. In the rare event my shoreline is to waterproof I jam a coat hanger along the bottom glass and punch holes in the foam/silicone holding my shoreline material in place. Gravel seals these holes enough so fish and tadpoles can't get under the falsebottom.

Many construction pics in my signature gallery links. Looks like **** when your building it, but comes out nice in the end  :Wink: 


Oh and the water is only foggy in that pic I posted because i had recently been screwing with the tank.

Using a layer of activated charcoal in your false bottom or as the bottom layer of your substrate and/or a mostly inorganic soil mix should keep water from becoming to tea stained from taninns.

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