# Classifieds > Testimonials >  Buyer Beware of Mike's Phat Frogs

## CHiNO

I would like to write about my experience with Mike Matson (MikesPhat Frogs). On the morning of Wednesday May 7th, 2014 I placed anorder for two albino woodhouse toads, and one samurai blue cranwelli. Mike promptlyshipped on Thursday May 8th, 2014 and I received the package in themorning of Friday May 9th, 2014. I took them home and immediatelymoved them individually into larger (4-5) Dixie cups with plastic plants forthem to hide under. Mind you the toads were only about the size of a small cricket;these enclosures were quite large for them. I came home the next day to findone of the toads sprawled out dead, I moved the dead one into the sauce cupthat mike provided in case he would want me to ship it back. I contacted Mike, heasks for proof and I send it to him. He then moves on to accuse me of keepingthe toad in the original container that he shipped with, and blames the deathon me. Mikes argument was that he kept lots of frogs/toads and none of themdie, so it must be my fault. I bought two toads, both kept in similar conditionsand one ups and dies. I just wanted Mike to right the situation, he pretty muchtold me to pay for another one. I have lots of experience raising baby frogsall the way into healthy large adult frogs. Mike not only was unprofessional,he even called me a moron. It was obvious to me I could not come to an agreementwith himas he was not professional and rude. I filed for a claim on Paypal forthe dead toad. Mike messages me and tells me Paypal will side with him. I lateron called Paypal to see why they closed the claim, they stated that they do notdeal with disputes on livestock, no wonder he was so smug. This was the worstvendor I have ever dealt with and I will never ever deal with him again. Also http://www.sandfiredragonranch.com/sells the same albino toads for only $15 dollars each. I gave Mike plenty ofchances to rectify the situation, but he resorted to name calling and immature tactics. Enjoy my $35 Mike, I hope it makes youRICH!

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## Carlos

Hello CHINO!  Understand you are not a happy camper with this deal; but the fact is most live animal sellers only provide a live arrival warranty.  Unless Mike offered you a different warranty, your frogs arrived alive and that is the end of it.

I'm not saying the frog died from being placed in a small container; but strongly recommend you move the survivor to a larger enclosure where you can accurately monitor it's temperature and humidity parameters.  Sorry for your loss  :Frown:  !

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XDragonFrogX

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## lindsayshocking

I don't know. Honestly, if the toad dies within 24 hours that seems suspicious to me. I'm surprised he wouldn't offer to refund you the money or send another toad. That's what I would have done. Kind of unprofessional for him to call you names, as well. I will definitely keep this in mind next time I go frog shopping. I am sorry to hear about your experience :/

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## r3k2p

Chino- definitely good to know when going shopping in the future. Thanks for the heads up... Now following thread.

I'll vouch for Chino knowing how to care for fogs. I've purchased quite a few frogs, juvenile and adult, that were all in great health and eating well. I've seen first hand and can tell you that his animals are well kept.

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## Lija

Sorry for your loss, i dealt with Mike, got 2 frogs from him and can tell you he was very professional and caring. In my experience if you want proper customer service you gotta behave yourself. Im not saying that was the case here, but given situation emotions might have run wild.

 At any rate most sellers have live arrival guarantee. Meaning they will arrive alive and healthy. If it is not the case you need to contact him within 2 hours ( +/-) with a proof they are dead or smth is wrong, you provide pic, you never ship dead/injured frogs back. 

 A lot of things might happen in 24 hours, even kept in ideal conditions, some just cant adapt well to stressful situations and that is not sellers fault, those are the risks of buying baby frogs/toads.

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## Helios

This may not be the most helpful suggestion, and I certainly understand your frustration. Dealing with shipping animals always makes me a tad nervous and amphibians can be so delicate in responding to their environments. I always try to garner every last detail about how they're being kept where I'm buying from in order to recreate those exact conditions during the quarantine period. 
Just throwing that out as a little aside in the topic.

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## irThumper

Never again... http://www.frogforum.net/showthread.php?t=34578

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## irThumper



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## Stephanie

> 


Sorry for your loss but thanks for sharing so no one else makes that mistake. 


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irThumper

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## irThumper

It's extremely important that prospective purchasers educate themselves about diseases like this. And it is the responsibility of breeders and sellers to be accountable when a problem is discovered. Covering such things up only hurts the frogs, the people who love them, and the amphibian industry as a whole.  :Frown:

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## Amy

Oh man,  Lisa,  I haven't been in much to catch up.   That is horrible!   I will keep the rest of your frogs in my thoughts and cross my fingers that it didn't spread at all.   No good  :Frown:

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irThumper

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## Stephanie

> It's extremely important that prospective purchasers educate themselves about diseases like this. And it is the responsibility of breeders and sellers to be accountable when a problem is discovered. Covering such things up only hurts the frogs, the people who love them, and the amphibian industry as a whole.


Very well said. You are so right I just wish the rest of the breeders out there would take more precaution and put a little more love in to it. If all the breeders and sellers out there would put even half the love in, we wouldn't be in this pickle. I must say I've learned so much from you Lisa through all your posts and all the frog forum froggers as well. My frogs live happier, healthier lives now because of all of this. I'm always looking for ways to better my frogs well being and there housing and caring for them  too. 


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irThumper

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## Frogger00

I know you are upset, and I don't know the whole story, but there is many other things to blame other than the breeder. Maybe your frogs came in contact with the disease while being shipped, or the breeder didn't even know that his frogs had caught the terrible disease. Don't get me wrong, it's great that you are sharing your experience, but please take into account these other possibilities. I'm sorry you've had such bad luck with a few of your frogs, I hope the others are doing well.


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## irThumper

This is no snap judgement, believe me. The veterinarians confirmed that the frogs would have been infected before coming to me. If you want to know the WHOLE story, including the threats made against me by Mike for trying to notify people about the Chytrid (and that they should test/treat their frogs to be on the safe side) then you can PM me and I will fill you in. I have been trying to piece together some very disturbing puzzle pieces, including the fact that frogs from the same breeder were dying at our local Petco-- they weren't dying from coccidiosis, after seeing it first hand I am 99% sure it was Chytrid. I also hear constantly about people's Petco frogs getting sick and up and dying... there has to be a common denominator, other than Petco just sucks at amphibian care. On Facebook was also a little girl who purchased WTFs from this same breeder (not Mike, the supplier in my case) more than once. The last time she got them directly from him at an expo... all of them got sick and died in short order. These Petco (etc) frog deaths all need to be investigated, they cannot simply be brushed off as the fault of the store or of the owners. Someone needs to be accountable. Mike even tried to say the fault was mine because he said he knew I "never quarantined any of my frogs." Anyone who's been following me on here knows THAT sure as shoot isn't true! He said they had to have caught it from one of my other frogs... I told him if that was true then we really had a big problem, as ALL my frogs (except one) came from the same breeder! My only non-Sandfire frog is Martha, and she came to me as an adult from a different Petco (35 miles away) and a different supplier. Also, I document EVERYTHING in both photos and video. Other than having a myriad of internal parasites they have been treated for all of my other guys have been healthy and living with me since Oct, Dec & Jan... Pole Bean came to me already skinny and sick, and Butter Bean was dead within 29 days with no obvious outward signs until just before he died. 

People need to stop sticking their heads in the sand and brushing domestic frog deaths under the rug, they are not doing the herp industry a bit of good by doing so. I am not interested in replacement frogs... I would refuse them at this point rather than risk going through this again! And even though we are out a substantial amount of money I am not asking for a refund, I am asking for accountability, not threats and redirection away from the issue.




> I know you are upset, and I don't know the whole story, but there is many other things to blame other than the breeder. Maybe your frogs came in contact with the disease while being shipped, or the breeder didn't even know that his frogs had caught the terrible disease. Don't get me wrong, it's great that you are sharing your experience, but please take into account these other possibilities. I'm sorry you've had such bad luck with a few of your frogs, I hope the others are doing well.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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LilyPad

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## Xavier

Honestly, I get kind of a vibe of Mike's, because he kind of feels like the McDonalds of the breeder's world. You see adds for them all the time, and then stuff like this happens...

http://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en/your_...mcnuggets.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCqKl4Q3hW4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_slime
http://grist.org/list/mcdonalds-mcre...e-site-advice/
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/201...dvice-website/

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## irThumper

Xavier, McDonalds never threatened to come to someone's house and F-them up. Go inquire at Faunaclassifieds.com as to why Mike's been banned from there.

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## gut

I'm very sorry for your loss, but thank you for sharing it.

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irThumper

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## Frogger00

> Xavier, McDonalds never threatened to come to someone's house and F-them up. Go inquire at Faunaclassifieds.com as to why Mike's been banned from there.


Wow. That is so unprofessional! Hope you and your frogs are doing okay. 


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irThumper

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## irThumper

I'm not doing ok, I've come down with some respiratory virus or something and feel like ****, just when I need all my strength for this  :Frown:  The rest of the frogs... I don't know yet. My vets recommended I NOT use the aerosol of Lamasil (have to trust them on this one Crunchy, just can't afford to take any more chances) because the other ingredients will not gas off completely and can still absorb into the frogs systems, causing potential problems. They are working on mixing me up a bath of Itraconazole (sp?) that is unadulterated with other potentially harmful ingredients, it's not been easy to mix and dose, however, and they want to make absolutely sure that the frogs will receive the proper dose. 

I just messaged this to Mike... "The snowflake is also dead. Will you please let me know who sent/boxed/shipped these frogs you sold me?" 
Lets see what response that gets.

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## irThumper

Fail!

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

Trust me I am no friend of Mike Maston. 
I am so sorry for your loss and I wish you the best of luck.

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irThumper

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## irThumper

> Trust me I am no friend of Mike Maston. 
> I am so sorry for your loss and I wish you the best of luck.


Thanks, Louis.

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## mikesfrogs

This will be my only post to this thread as I have not received any documentation that supports what you have claimed. Show me a vet report backing what you say.  Let alone give me the vets number and I can contact him myself. 

You have also have collected wild tree frogs and placed them inside your home.i I have those screen shots. Those alone will cause plenty of problems with cb frogs and allow diseases to be transferred. You have no treatment method let alone a quarantine method. I have talked to a few vets and they say there is no possible way that a vet would make the statement that "those animals arrived with chitrid". Especially knowing that they were in your care for atleast 25-30 days. Those animals were at the same facility for 6-12 months. These are not babies. They were sub adult animals and have been healthy their entire lives. 



These frogs are produced and raised at sAndfire Dragon ranch. There is 1000s of them that all have no signs of chitrid. We do this for a living and know what is going on with our animals. 


YOU exposed them to this fungus......  It is your responsibility to put me in contact with the vet that sent you the results. This is a completely unsupported claim. 


Treatment options for chytridiomycosis include antifungal drugs and heat-induced therapy.[25] The antifungal drug itraconazole is the most popular form of treatment.[9][25][26][27] Individuals infected with chytridiomycosis from B. dendrobatidis are bathed in intraconazole solutions, and within a few weeks, previously infected individuals test negative for B. dendrobatidis using PCR assays.[9][26][27] Heat therapy is also used to neutralize B. dendrobatidis in infected individuals.[25][28] Temperature-controlled laboratory experiments are used to increase the temperature of an individual past the optimal temperature range of B. dendrobatidis.[28] Experiments, where the temperature is increased beyond the upper bound of the B. dendrobatidis optimal range of 25 to 30 °C, show B. dendrobatidis presence will dissipate within a few weeks and individuals infected with chytridiomycosis return to normal.[28] Formalin/malachite green has also been used to successfully treat individuals infected with chytridiomycosis.[9] An Archey's frog was successfully cured of chytridiomycosis by applying chloramphenicol topically.

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## mikesfrogs

I am just seeing this now and CHINO you know this entire thread isn't what happened...... You left the frogs for 2 days in.the same small deli container that they were shipped in. Lazily you did not change them. If I recall correctly there was a large amount of humidity on the cups. Which would indicate the temps were atleast in the 80s. Frogs are not snakes. You cannot leave them in tubs for days and not clean or care for them...

I offered you half off on a replacement. You just would have to pay shipping. Those toads are live arrival guarantee. I have been doing this for quite a few years now and everyone that messes up and kills their frogs within the first few days makes up a story that doesn't match the picture.  You killed that frog. 

You then also tried to go back to paypal and get all of your money back. Which then you would be trying to rip me off. I usually work very well with people when frogs die and replace them as I see stories match the picture. However, when you come at me like an ******* demanding money back for something that you did..... That's where I am going to draw the line 

Also, I am part of sAndfire. Those toads were posted on kingsnake.com at wholesale prices because there was a overload of them. Good luck finding them at $15.00 again. The retail value for albino Woodhouse is $30-$50.00 just depending on how well started the babies are 




> I would like to write about my experience with Mike Matson (Mike’sPhat Frogs). On the morning of Wednesday May 7th, 2014 I placed anorder for two albino woodhouse toads, and one samurai blue cranwelli. Mike promptlyshipped on Thursday May 8th, 2014 and I received the package in themorning of Friday May 9th, 2014. I took them home and immediatelymoved them individually into larger (4”-5”) Dixie cups with plastic plants forthem to hide under. Mind you the toads were only about the size of a small cricket;these enclosures were quite large for them. I came home the next day to findone of the toads sprawled out dead, I moved the dead one into the sauce cupthat mike provided in case he would want me to ship it back. I contacted Mike, heasks for proof and I send it to him. He then moves on to accuse me of keepingthe toad in the original container that he shipped with, and blames the deathon me. Mike’s argument was that he kept lots of frogs/toads and none of themdie, so it must be my fault. I bought two toads, both kept in similar conditionsand one ups and dies. I just wanted Mike to right the situation, he pretty muchtold me to pay for another one. I have lots of experience raising baby frogsall the way into healthy large adult frogs. Mike not only was unprofessional,he even called me a moron. It was obvious to me I could not come to an agreementwith him…as he was not professional and rude. I filed for a claim on Paypal forthe dead toad. Mike messages me and tells me Paypal will side with him. I lateron called Paypal to see why they closed the claim, they stated that they do notdeal with disputes on livestock, no wonder he was so smug. This was the worstvendor I have ever dealt with and I will never ever deal with him again. Also http://www.sandfiredragonranch.com/sells the same albino toads for only $15 dollars each. I gave Mike plenty ofchances to rectify the situation, but he resorted to name calling and immature tactics. Enjoy my $35 Mike, I hope it makes youRICH!

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## Frogger00

Mike, please do not make things up. IrThumper always always always quarantines any new additions and treats any illnesses with vet recommended meds. It is very possible that it your fault, but it is also possible that it is IrThumper's fault. I don't know the whole story, but putting the blame on her and bashing her publicly is incredibly unprofessional and rude. 

Honestly, I'd have to say that you yourself are most likely at fault here, especially with your poor reviews. 


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irThumper

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## mikesfrogs

> Trust me I am no friend of Mike Maston. 
> I am so sorry for your loss and I wish you the best of luck.


And Louis I could care less if we are friends or not. You have never purchased frogs from me. You were at the wrong end of a discussion with a few admins and I and we corrected you. We may not see eye to eye. You have little to no actual experience with these animals. 

My best example of that is you saying "a male pacman that's an adult weighs 300-400 grams" that is the size of a large healthy female. Males rarely make it into the 200 gram range....

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## mikesfrogs

iRthumper she has never responded saying she did any quarantine method. She has not responded with proof of a vet report.  I packed the animals. She purchased them thru me knowing that they are sAndfire frogs. These did not even touch my warehouse.   I will put blame on her. Especially after her throwing my name and sandfires around stating these frogs came from our facilities with chitrid. She has no proof at all.....  If so show me. I would like to contact the vet myself.... This entire claim is a joke. I am tired of dealing with it. 

she is a very busy body type person. I can understand someone being upset. However, all of us breeders treat every animal that enters our facility for chitrid.... So, no she didn't quarantine and treat these frogs properly.  Seeing that these we're the only two animals that passed it is possible that the tank or items within has chitrid. It is possible that she touched something outside that has the fungus on it. It's possible that the frogs she collected last year had chitrid. It is possible the frogs she currently has is carrying it and has not reacted to it because their environment has not changed. She may have not cleaned her equipment properly. Chitrid is in a lot of areas as it is transferred quite a few ways ....

The good thing is in captivity this fungus can be cured with little to no casualties

And as far as my poor reviews..... I have received very few compared to the 1000s of frogs that I have sold. I would bet it is less than 1% 




> Mike, please do not make things up. IrThumper always always always quarantines any new additions and treats any illnesses with vet recommended meds. It is very possible that it your fault, but it is also possible that it is IrThumper's fault. I don't know the whole story, but putting the blame on her and bashing her publicly is incredibly unprofessional and rude. 
> 
> Honestly, I'd have to say that you yourself are most likely at fault here, especially with your poor reviews. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## mikesfrogs

Every response and post on here will be saved and forwarded to sandfire and Petco. You are also throwing Petco under the bus saying they have infected frogs ect.   Petco does not play around with accusations. Neither will sandfire or I. If these false claims continue we will have an attorney contact you. 

The frogs are gone and have passed away. There is no issues with frogs on our properties. So right now every comment, thread and picture is being saved as libel defamation.

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## Xavier

Mike, all she has been doing is proof! Let me direct you to this post.
http://www.frogforum.net/showthread.php?t=34578
Or this one
http://www.frogforum.net/showthread....313#post260313
Or this one too!
http://www.frogforum.net/showthread....293#post260293
So take responsibility for the hurt you caused our friend, who quarantines all of her animals before hand.

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irThumper

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## Xavier

> Every response and post on here will be saved and forwarded to sandfire and Petco. You are also throwing Petco under the bus saying they have infected frogs ect.   Petco does not play around with accusations. Neither will sandfire or I. If these false claims continue we will have an attorney contact you. 
> 
> The frogs are gone and have passed away. There is no issues with frogs on our properties. So right now every comment, thread and picture is being saved as libel defamation.


You know, that's all you ever say. If you were to actually sue someone that did nothing wrong (you did) you would have sued by now. So stop accusing her before she actually sues you first!

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irThumper

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## Xavier

Bet you haven't seen this either Mike...
http://www.frogforum.net/showthread....313#post260313

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irThumper

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## mikesfrogs

> Bet you haven't seen this either Mike...
> http://www.frogforum.net/showthread....313#post260313


Xavier where is the actual proof? There is no vet report at all. Just a bunch of hear say..... I am meeting with an attorney in the morning actually. It takes time to schedule appointments. Please have her sue me. I would love to see how she can prove that they came in with chitrid.... No vet will put their name on a chopping board like that. 

I will do a batch test her shortly along with sandfire. So, when they come back negative this all becomes defamation... We have thousands of animals that are showing no symptoms... 


Please xavier tell me how she can prove this came from us and something she did not expose to them.

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## Xavier

on the vet report that the frogs would have come to her already infected. Now explain to me, why you said you would come to her house and f-her up? Doesn't seem like something somebody would want if they were trying to sell sick animals

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irThumper

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## mikesfrogs

You show me where i said that

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## Xavier

> Xavier where is the actual proof? There is no vet report at all. Just a bunch of hear say.....


You didn't even admit it on there. You didn't even bother to say what she said. The reason she's in this mess, is she bought the frogs, put them in quarantine until they both died. Before they both did, (The first had already died) she took the other one to the vet and it tested positive for Chytrid fungus. The vet said that it would have had to get the chytrid from the person who sent them. Plus with your anger, and bad recommendations, and being banned from faunaclassifieds, it seems kind of suspicious, as I'm sure others would agree...

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irThumper

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## mikesfrogs

> on the vet report that the frogs would have come to her already infected. Now explain to me, why you said you would come to her house and f-her up? Doesn't seem like something somebody would want if they were trying to sell sick animals


Show me the vet report.... No one has done so... 

Also, as far as f-her up or the statement that she claims. Here is the context below. I told her that I will not be conducting anymore messages on Facebook until I receive a vet report. She refuses to show it to me... So I said I have no problem stopping by on my way up to Washington at the address that I have. Which is her fathers barber shop. I figured I could talk to an actual adult their. 

This ML Richards/ whatever non real name she goes by is a busy body and flat out nuts. Every person that she has done business with will tell you the same.... 








5/22, 11:14am








Mike Matson






When I get messages like that. That will piss me off. 


You are blasting my name all over the internet with nothing that is tied to me except a name on a label. The frogs don't come from my facility. You know this in previous threads. 


This is defamation of character and slander. I'll be taking notes down on the average amount of money I lose because of these post. I'll have an attorney contact you and you will be responsible for what I lose. Especially when the test I will do here after this next week come back negative .








.


...








Mike Matson




5/22, 11:16am








Mike Matson






You need to remove those post. >>>>>>I don't mind stopping by next week on my way up to Washington. I do have an address<<<<<<<<

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## Xavier

> Show me the vet report.... No one has done so... 
> 
> Also, as far as f-her up or the statement that she claims. Here is the context below. I told her that I will not be conducting anymore messages on Facebook until I receive a vet report. She refuses to show it to me... So I said I have no problem stopping by on my way up to Washington at the address that I have. Which is her fathers barber shop. I figured I could talk to an actual adult their. 
> 
> This ML Richards/ whatever non real name she goes by is a busy body and flat out nuts. Every person that she has done business with will tell you the same.... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He was trying SO hard to get me to remove my posts, which were not slanderous or libelous (we know law in this family) that he first threatened to sick attorneys on me, then he threatened to come to our address (something he's actually done to others in the past apparently-- Faunaclassifieds.com), then as a last ditch effort he pulled out the amphibian ban card and said that I, MYSELF, would be giving them fuel to take away EVERYONE'S frogsd-- excuse me? I'm not the one who sent me sick frogs! he also threw Sandfire under the bus by saying that they came directly from them and were never at HIS facility-- oh? Then why did the payment go to Mike and not Sandfire if these were frogs he did not own(?) or were not in his possession? Who was in charge of boxing and sending these frogs to me? Why was I sent one "apparently" healthy (appearing) frog (Butter Bean) and one obviously thin and sickly frog (Pole Bean) and he never replied to my msg about it?  He tried to accuse my other frogs of making these frogs sick, but I've had my frogs since Oct, Dec and Jan and they have ALL been QT'd (up until a few weeks ago in April/May) and tested and treated numerous times for intestinal parasites. No one ever told me they should be tested for Chytrid too, and treated as a safeguard... that NEEDS to be common knowledge! Also, breeders/sellers need to be accountable... THEY need to test, and treat, and make that information publically available to their clients.


This is what she said to me. Seems like your being a bit aggressive, how did you even find her address?

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irThumper

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## mikesfrogs

I was was banned from fauna classifieds when I was 19 years old. That was 6 years ago. 

Do you even know why I was banned??  I got into a local feud with a shop owner who couldn't match the prices I was advertising. She then started bashing me on fauna and we got into it. She's a heck of a character... Look up bianca trump. Shoot  even look up her jerry springer episode or her arrest record. She's a x porn star/ prostitute.  Who is the  one that would easily persuade the men that run fauna to ban me?? I think the woman who's a porn star.

i had a few drop shipments that went bad from  wholesalers that shipped direct to customers for me. Hence why I do not do that any longer.  I produce my own animals. 1000s of them xavier to supply  the USA  and other countries.......

so xavier anything else you would like to know.... Since you are so new here to this site 




> You didn't even admit it on there. You didn't even bother to say what she said. The reason she's in this mess, is she bought the frogs, put them in quarantine until they both died. Before they both did, (The first had already died) she took the other one to the vet and it tested positive for Chytrid fungus. The vet said that it would have had to get the chytrid from the person who sent them. Plus with your anger, and bad recommendations, and being banned from faunaclassifieds, it seems kind of suspicious, as I'm sure others would agree...

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## Xavier

Yeah, when did you start to breed the white's tree frogs? You just said on this thread
http://www.frogforum.net/showthread.php?t=34667
"xavier please educate yourself and your comments.  I did not produce the frogs in question and they were never at my facility."

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irThumper

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## mikesfrogs

There is still no vet report!!!!!!!  

The money goes to because I am the one that shipped them. I am part of sandfire. 

I am honestly tired of the proof less claim. Show me the vet report and the vets phone number. Until then you have absolutely nothing. 

If the frogs were testing within a few days of arriving and had chitrid it would be a different situation. The fact that nothing was tested til after 30 days and frogs didn't pass til then, they were exposed at her home to chitrid. If in fact it is even chitrid and not miss care....







> He was trying SO hard to get me to remove my posts, which were not slanderous or libelous (we know law in this family) that he first threatened to sick attorneys on me, then he threatened to come to our address (something he's actually done to others in the past apparently-- Faunaclassifieds.com), then as a last ditch effort he pulled out the amphibian ban card and said that I, MYSELF, would be giving them fuel to take away EVERYONE'S frogsd-- excuse me? I'm not the one who sent me sick frogs! he also threw Sandfire under the bus by saying that they came directly from them and were never at HIS facility-- oh? Then why did the payment go to Mike and not Sandfire if these were frogs he did not own(?) or were not in his possession? Who was in charge of boxing and sending these frogs to me? Why was I sent one "apparently" healthy (appearing) frog (Butter Bean) and one obviously thin and sickly frog (Pole Bean) and he never replied to my msg about it?  He tried to accuse my other frogs of making these frogs sick, but I've had my frogs since Oct, Dec and Jan and they have ALL been QT'd (up until a few weeks ago in April/May) and tested and treated numerous times for intestinal parasites. No one ever told me they should be tested for Chytrid too, and treated as a safeguard... that NEEDS to be common knowledge! Also, breeders/sellers need to be accountable... THEY need to test, and treat, and make that information publically available to their clients.
> 
> 
> This is what she said to me. Seems like your being a bit aggressive, how did you even find her address?

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## Xavier

I'm not the one who has the vet papers, irThumper is, and once she does show the vet papers, you are going to be caught in the act of selling sick frogs and everybody is going to know because you have sold sick frogs to petco and other various pet stores. Like she said it's people like you that are making the government put holds and limits on frogs

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## mikesfrogs

> I'm not the one who has the vet papers, irThumper is, and once she does show the vet papers, you are going to be caught in the act of selling sick frogs and everybody is going to know because you have sold sick frogs to petco and other various pet stores. Like she said it's people like you that are making the government put holds and limits on frogs


xavier honestly you are a moron.... Please get your facts right. Especially, on chitrid works and how it is spread. Those frogs would not have arrived with it.  She will look especially stupid when test come back negative here at both facilities. Then what will the response be??? Please tell me

Also, when it comes back negative both sAndfire and I have our proof that  her claim of us having chitrid is false.  Which a lawsuit would favor in our way. 

Especially , after your statement above proving that apparently everybody is going to know. I'm curious to how much money in lost sales she will be responsible for. 

This is will be fun.  

She apparently received vet reports a week ago or so. I have yet to see them... So false claims with no proof. 

Answer this.... What happens when our recent tests come back negative???????????????????

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## Xavier

And even more evidence, if her forgs did have Chytrid fungus, they would have died by now.
*Effect of chytridiomycosis  on infected frogs*Dead and dying frogs  generally have disorders of the epidermis, and often exhibit behavioral changes  such as lethargy and loss of righting reflex. Chytrid zoosporangia live in the  heavily keratinized _stratum corneum_ and _stratum granulosum_ of the frogs  pelvic patch, digits, and ventral body, and in the keratinized mouthparts of  tadpoles. Associated epidermal changes included irregular cell loss,  hyperkeratosis, and excessive sloughing of the skin. Infected frogs begin to  die roughly 21 days post-infection, and though larvae are susceptible to  infection, deaths are generally restricted to metamorphosed individuals (this  is because larvae do not have much keratin). Though chytridiomycosis is  unlikely to cause larval mortality, it can significantly decrease body mass at  metamorphosis and increase the duration of the larval period, both of which are  likely to negatively affect the amphibian's survivorship in the long run. Two  leading hypotheses have been put forward to explain how _Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis_ directly kills its host: 1) toxic,  proteolytic enzymes are released by the fungus, and 2) loss of electrolytes  negatively affects osmoregulation and/or oxygen uptake, two primary functions  of amphibian skin.
(Cited from http://www.************.com/threats/chytrid/)

It says that frogs infected with Chytrid die typically in 21 days. Her frogs have been with her for years, if you want the link, here you go!
http://www.************.com/threats/chytrid/

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## mikesfrogs

Those two frogs were introduced to something... At her home. Explain how the other 20 frogs that were house in the same cage as hers are still alive at other customers houses.. 

This is a one time occurrence. Which means they were introduced to it at her place. She had those frogs well over 30 days

You are a hobbyist if at best... I do this professionally. I know how these diseases work and how to connect the dots

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## mikesfrogs

She did also collect wild frogs and keep them within her home.............. I have a screen shot of it and her talking about them with photos. Find it interesting also with a woman that has nothing more to do than go one 1000+ word rants she is silent today. Especially when there is no vet report 

So stop wasting my time. I am thru with this thread. This is a lost cause

someone give me a txt or call when a actual vet report is posted... 714-782-8421

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## Amy

I am locking this thread for further review.

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## Heather

Following. I would like to mention I am very displeased with the behavior here. 

I would also like to mention that Petco has been proven to sell sick frogs in the past. Perhaps not all, but I cannot tell you how many we have helped to recover here. I do believe there are some healthy frogs from them as well. No slander needed. Much proof is evident throughout the forum and other frog community pages as well. 

As a forum, we do not encourage slander, but teach to know your buyers, what to look for for a healthy frog, how to quarantine and how to be prepared for any treatments necessary. 

All of the recent Chytrid/BD posts are being monitored here presently. We will discuss the issues at hand. 

Currently a few threads have been locked due to the threats being mentioned. We will not tolerate the behavior. 

Pleasant debate is always welcome. 

Those in the wrong please consider correcting your actions. 

It is recommended that any frogs in question be tested for Chytrid, as we all know it could potentially ruin the hobby we love.

Those of us who are so cautious to prevent such transmissions would like to be able to continue to enjoy our hobby. 

Itraconazole is the best know cure at this time. I would recommend anyone treating follow along closely with a vet for treatments and follow strict quarantining procedures. 

Enough said. 

We want to continue our amazing hobby? Do it right. 

I am sorry for any losses that anyone has incurred. Please, from both sides of any transactions, please do right by your purchasers and sellers and do the right thing. 

This thread will remain locked until further notice.

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Lija, LilyPad

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## Heather

Big sigh  :Frown:

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