# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Beginner Discussion >  A bit in the dark

## Vort

Hey, I'm new here, and looking to start a dart frog terrarium, I am not new to herp keeping, but have never kept dart frogs before, if possible, can you guys reccomend a short list of equipment for me to have, mostly if you could reccomend substrate, especially. Also, I was wondering if an exo Terra terrarium or my 20 gallon tall would be a less/more expensive/simpler option - the frogs I would be keeping would just be azures. Thanks mangs.

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## bshmerlie

With D. Azureus you want to use whichever tank has the most horizontal square footage. You also need to have a full glass lid. You can get ABG (Atlanta Botanical Gardens) mix from Joshs Frogs. It is a well draining soil mix that is often used in the dart frog community.  It helps with plant health and is a good substrate for microfauna.  You can also get a fruitfly starter package from Joshs.  It will include cups, excelsior, fruit fly mix,  and fruit flies. You can also get springtails and isopods to seed the tank with.  Besides deciding which plants and the type of background to do that's about all you're gonna need.  I would recommend a mated pair of adult Azureus so that you don't have to worry about territorial issues.

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## Vort

Thanks for the reply - I have looked at D. Ventrimaculatus, would they require vertical space as well? And I am assuming an exo Terra 12x12x18 would suffice for a single frog, correct? Now, as for the mated pair of animals, that would be a wonderful experience to breed these frogs - but I'm afraid I do not have the budget for the tank and both animals. Really, all the items I already need are expensive enough, heh, oh well.

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## Vort

Another thing, why the glass lid? Can I not keep humidity without? Don't glass lids block UV light to some degree? E: Is a background necessary, really I'm not very handy with uh. Things...

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## bshmerlie

I personally can't recommend a thumbnail frog to someone who has never kept a standard size dart before.  They are extremely small and a first timer should stick with something more hardy and bold such as the Azureus.  The Azureus would be too big and require more floor space than a 12X12X18 would provide.  You could do a pair of Vents in that size tank but for the Azureus you would need the 20 gallon to be horizontal.  I recommend full glass lids at the beginning because many people struggle with keeping the humidity level at the right level.  The frogs will be fine with the glass lids.  As you become more experienced then leave a one inch section of screen at the top for ventilation. The ventilation will help the plants but the frogs won't really care either way.  I use Exo Terra's and it is more difficult to keep the humidity level up as there is gaps around the doors and at the bottom vent.  On the other hand I live in California and the weather is extremely dry here so that may not be such a factor for you in North Carolina.  I recommended a mated pair because Azureus are very territorial and you "could" have problems if you end up with two females.  Not saying that you would, but there is always that possibility.  I still think the Azureus are the way for you to go but ultimately it is up to you.

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## Vort

Honestly, I am going for the azureus in the 20 high, I doubt
I can get 2 frogs, and even if my budget could allow, I wouldn't know how to obtain a mated pair - there is a breeder in Greensboro I will attempt to get over there once the setup is complete.

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## bshmerlie

You should be able to get a couple of babies for $35-$40 each.  If not get one, let it grow up, ID the sex and then get the opposite sex later on.

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## Vort

Okay, I'll probably buy one, and get a second later - as for light, I was probably going to get a clamp lamp and full spectrum bulb from home depot, that would be fine, yes?

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## Don

I run two cfl 5500K bulbs on my 15 gallon vertical to get enough light to the bottom so it might depend on your build and plants.
My 20 long runs 1 T8 florescent tube and 2 cfl 5500K bulbs and the plants do well.

You can get away with one if the plants you place lower only need lower light provided.

The lighting is more for the plants life, although it also should be timed to give a day and night cycle.

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## Vort

Well, I can't use a tube - and must I have so much light? I don't even use T5s for my reef (though I probably should...). Will a simple lamp and full-spectrum bulb not suffice?

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## Don

Only way to know is try it.  Like I said, it depends the lighting needs of the plants you select and then where you place them in the vivarium.

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## Vort

I'm getting the 20 gallon high pack from Josh's frogs, if that helps.

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## Don

Try the one CFL bulb or buy the Zoo Med dual dome fixture and just do the two right off the bat.
     I think you'll like the light and brightness better with two bulbs.
     One might work well if the larger plants are not blocking the light from getting to the lower plants.

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## Vort

Alright, I'll go for the one CFL bulb and if that doesn't work pick up another from home depot, I mean, you can get a lamp and bulb that's essentially the same that you get a petsmart for around $40 total. It's ridiculous I tell ya what.

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## Lacibeth

> Alright, I'll go for the one CFL bulb and if that doesn't work pick up another from home depot, I mean, you can get a lamp and bulb that's essentially the same that you get a petsmart for around $40 total. It's ridiculous I tell ya what.


petmountain.com is my new best buddy mostly b/c I can let thing sit in the shopping cart for 24 hrs but if I get inside a Home Depot/Lowes I spend a bazillion dollars.

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## Vort

Well I mean, the whole light system would only cost maybe $20 dollars at maximum.

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## Lacibeth

> Well I mean, the whole light system would only cost maybe $20 dollars at maximum.


Yep, I just picked up one of Zilla's slimlines for $23ish or so.

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