# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Beginner Discussion >  howdy!

## 68mudstud

Hey everyone, n00b here. Been browsing the site for a few days. My girlfriend and I would love to start a viv or a paludarium. I want darts, she wants a turtle. Lol

I built an 80 gallon glass tank, 34" long, 24 wide and 24 high. I want to be able to walk all the way around it, so im not going to have a background. I was kind of thinking 2 small ponds, on opposite corners, fed by their own waterfalls. Then I was thinking a fake volcano in the middle with the humidifier plumbed into it so it looks like its smoking. Im not sure what kind of frogs I want, but im loving the looks of these. Dendrobates auratus 'Nicaraguan Green & Black' | Josh's Frogs 

If I get those, how many do you think I should go with? Im sure ill have lots more questions. Thanks in advance!

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## Eli

Welcome to the frog forum  :Smile: !! Thats a nice big tank and you have some great ideas! Probably about 6 or seven Auratus i would say would be happy in there. Keep in mind they are a shy species, and without a background or at least some covering and if kept in a high traffic area, they will be hiding a lot and you won't see them very often

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## bill

Saw that volcano paludarium on YouTube, did we? Lol please oh please tell me you are not planning on keeping turtles and darts together. That would be a bad move. 

You said you built the tank, so I am assuming you also built a glass top for it as well? 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Lynn

Hello and welcome to Frog Forum

You have a big project planned  :Smile: 

May I respectfully suggest being extremely careful with water features and/or any similar feature a frog can crawl into  :Frown: 

As Eli has mentioned...D auratus is a shy species. (My most shy species ...by far, anyway) I go days without seeing them.  This species is especially good at hiding and finding ridiculous and dangerous places to do so. As with all PDF enclosures , care must be taken that all potential openings are secure ---especially those within an enclosure that lead to any 'mechanical devices' ie pump/filters/tubing/background material etc. If this species gets frightened enough it will even go so far as to dig or burrow under enclosure decor.

A bold species- and always out - are the D leucomelas.  They do well in a group also. Leucs are a great species for a more open -family -area as they are bold and will be less stressed by on-going activity outside the enclosure. 

If you have never built an enclosure for dart frogs before...it might be a good idea to practice on a smaller one first ?  :Smile:  ; unless of course, you have had plenty of experience to tackle this project. It sounds great !

Nothing is impossible....BUT.....we (including myself) have visions of exciting and elaborate enclosures! We, have seen some outstanding displays. 

After gaining a little experience....I realize..... it's all about the frogs ! 
It's all about creating a proper and safe habitat for the frogs. 

 :Butterfly:

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## 68mudstud

> Welcome to the frog forum !! Thats a nice big tank and you have some great ideas! Probably about 6 or seven Auratus i would say would be happy in there. Keep in mind they are a shy species, and without a background or at least some covering and if kept in a high traffic area, they will be hiding a lot and you won't see them very often


Cool. The more I think about it, the more im thinking a bolder type like this...Phyllobates bicolor 'Green Leg' | Josh's Frogs

Thanks!

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## 68mudstud

> Saw that volcano paludarium on YouTube, did we? Lol please oh please tell me you are not planning on keeping turtles and darts together. That would be a bad move. 
> 
> You said you built the tank, so I am assuming you also built a glass top for it as well? 
> 
> Nope, must have missed that one on youtube. Lol dang, I thought I had a unique idea... no I told my girlfriend that id build her a seperate tank for a stupid turtle if she paid for the glass. 
> 
> No, I havent made the top of the enclosure yet until I figured out how I wanted my lights and tubes and cords run. Im kind of on a limited budget right now. 
> 
> If I could just figure out how to incorporate this in with a few fish and a hydroponic setup for my superhot peppers.... 
> ...


This is hard on a tablet. Lol

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## 68mudstud

> Hello and welcome to Frog Forum
> 
> You have a big project planned 
> 
> May I respectfully suggest being extremely careful with water features and/or any similar feature a frog can crawl into 
> 
> As Eli has mentioned...D auratus is a shy species. (My most shy species ...by far, anyway) I go days without seeing them.  This species is especially good at hiding and finding ridiculous and dangerous places to do so. As with all PDF enclosures , care must be taken that all potential openings are secure ---especially those within an enclosure that lead to any 'mechanical devices' ie pump/filters/tubing/background material etc. If this species gets frightened enough it will even go so far as to dig or burrow under enclosure decor.
> 
> A bold species- and always out - are the D leucomelas.  They do well in a group also. Leucs are a great species for a more open -family -area as they are bold and will be less stressed by on-going activity outside the enclosure. 
> ...


Duly noted Lynn, I appreciate the thoughts. I think I will go with a more bold species first. And I pretty much have the glasswork done, and it holds 84 gallons of water. Lol

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## Happy Frog

> Hey everyone, n00b here. Been browsing the site for a few days. My girlfriend and I would love to start a viv or a paludarium. I want darts, she wants a turtle. Lol
> 
> I built an 80 gallon glass tank, 34" long, 24 wide and 24 high. I want to be able to walk all the way around it, so im not going to have a background. I was kind of thinking 2 small ponds, on opposite corners, fed by their own waterfalls. Then I was thinking a fake volcano in the middle with the humidifier plumbed into it so it looks like its smoking. Im not sure what kind of frogs I want, but im loving the looks of these. Dendrobates auratus 'Nicaraguan Green & Black' | Josh's Frogs 
> 
> If I get those, how many do you think I should go with? Im sure ill have lots more questions. Thanks in advance!


Where are you going to put the ferris wheel and roller coaster?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyFfWnlZ-8k

BTW - Most turtles are omnivores.

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## 68mudstud

> Where are you going to put the ferris wheel and roller coaster?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyFfWnlZ-8k
> 
> BTW - Most turtles are omnivores.


Are you saying im trying too hard?  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Happy Frog

> Are you saying im trying too hard?


What you are intending to do is a recipe for disaster.  There is no one on this site that is more understanding of beginners than me, but you are already wanting to create things for your first vivarium than go beyond your level of experience.

First, you can not keep turtles and dart frogs together.  Period.  Case closed!  Second, if you choose dart frogs that volcano is unnecessary and will only cause problems.  You may not realize it but the first thing your frogs are going to do is crawl down the hole of that volcano.  Forget any type of water feature.  I've seen very few that work good and the really good ones have been created by people who are experienced in creating vivariums.  Water features are cool to look at but they have to be done right.

Read, read, read.  And then read some more.  Start by learning the basic way a simple dart frog enclosure is created.  You can create quite a little jungle with a 20 gallon tall.  Cork tubes, driftwood, and lots of leaf litter are more important to a dart frog than a volcano and a little stream.  Start by going to Josh's frogs.  They have sections that show how to create a simple enclosure.

Now - as far as the turtle...I have three ponds that are filled with turtles that people thought were going to be neat to own and then got tired of them.

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## Fbt123

I agree with Happy Frog, the turtles will most likely attempt to eat the darts, plus the turtles need deep water and darts arent very good swimmers. Dont do anything too over the top as it may wreck everything else you do with the viv  :Smile:

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## Carlos

Hello and welcome to FF  :Smile:  !  Think when you mentioned the different pets you and girlfriend want; forum members presumed you were planing to mix them.  Just in case; that is a no no.

Best thing to get you started is to head to the Vivarium Section and read some of the excellent build posts in there.  Recommend look at those by Bill (Deranged Chipmunk); specially this one:  http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...aludarium.html.

The issue with water is that in vivariums; it tends to go where it wants to without exactly following the builder's intention.  Your substrate (ABG type soil for the plants) need to remain above the water level and not flooded by water features gone rampant.  If it get's soaked, substrate will become a bacteria breeding bog.  In the case of your desire to build a 360 degree observation peninsula type display; those planned water features are going to be challenging to build since there is no background in which to hide the equipment (pump and or filters) and tubing.  And everything has to be sealed tight with no way for a frog to access the equipment area.

_P. bicolor_ are outgoing frogs.  We do not have a care guide for them yet; but you can use this one to get an idea of it's requirements:  Frog Forum - Care & Breeding of the Golden Poison Frog, Phyllobates terribilis.  Good luck  :Smile:  !

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