# Frogs & Toads > Tree Frogs >  White's Tree Frog having trouble with his back legs - advice needed please.

## Heather

Hey everyone, hopefully somebody here can help us ...

We noticed one of our white's tree frogs having trouble moving his back legs yesterday. His toes were curling up and his legs seemed really stiff, like it was difficult for him to move them. We took him out and had a look at him, but he looks normal, no discolourations or redness anywhere. We made sure he had plenty water and dusted crickets in the tank and left him so as to not stress him out. 

He slept normally on the glass wall of the tank, toes spread out and legs tucked in, but tonight his legs seemed to be in the same state. I took him out and within a few minutes he was holding himself up and hopping around the table, but when I put him in some lukewarm water with a little honey to try to bathe him, he freaked out, his legs started twitching and he was lying on his tummy. I lifted him out and he seems much happier sitting on the ground, if moving much more slowly than normal.

We have two white's and there seems to be nothing wrong with the other one, he's constantly hungry and flinging himself towards anything that moves, also very alert and bathing just fine. It's possible, since Ritty (the one we're worried about) has always been a bit littler than Bertie, that he doesn't get quite as much to eat.

He behaved like this a couple of months ago, we thought it was because it had been too cold for them and after plenty water and food and the heating turned up, he was fine. But maybe that wasn't the problem?

He ate one cricket yesterday but doesn't seem interested in food today.

The tank set up is below. Bertie is the brown one on the vine, Ritty the green one on the ground. They've always been these colours. We've had them for eight months so they're 9 - 10 months old.



1. 30 gallon enclosure
2. 2 white's, same age (9 - 10 months) and very close in size
3. no hygrometer but I'd guess between 60-70%
4. temperature 70-75F
5. spring water in two soaking dishes and for misting twice a day
6. orchid bark for substrate
7. one plastic vine, two plastic plants, one branch
8. fed crickets and locusts, alternating every few weeks
9. calcium the food every second feeding
10. no lighting within the tank but constant day-night hours are kept
11. heat mat covering about a quarter of the tank floor
12. Ritty ate at least one cricket yesterday and was seen hunting and eating three locusts 5 days ago 
13. difficult to monitor who the poop belongs to but there hasn't been as much lately

17. living in the UK, I would assume the frogs are captive bred, but I don't know for sure

19. Bertie prefers being handled, every two weeks or so, Ritty more rarely than once a month
20. low traffic area
21. Spot check every week or when dirt is obvious. Everything taken out and cleaned with boiling spring water, substrate changed, once every two months. Water change twice every three days.

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## Lindsey

> Hey everyone, hopefully somebody here can help us ...
> 
> We noticed one of our white's tree frogs having trouble moving his back legs yesterday. His toes were curling up and his legs seemed really stiff, like it was difficult for him to move them. We took him out and had a look at him, but he looks normal, no discolourations or redness anywhere. We made sure he had plenty water and dusted crickets in the tank and left him so as to not stress him out. 
> 
> He slept normally on the glass wall of the tank, toes spread out and legs tucked in, but tonight his legs seemed to be in the same state. I took him out and within a few minutes he was holding himself up and hopping around the table, but when I put him in some lukewarm water with a little honey to try to bathe him, he freaked out, his legs started twitching and he was lying on his tummy. I lifted him out and he seems much happier sitting on the ground, if moving much more slowly than normal.
> 
> We have two white's and there seems to be nothing wrong with the other one, he's constantly hungry and flinging himself towards anything that moves, also very alert and bathing just fine. It's possible, since Ritty (the one we're worried about) has always been a bit littler than Bertie, that he doesn't get quite as much to eat.
> 
> He behaved like this a couple of months ago, we thought it was because it had been too cold for them and after plenty water and food and the heating turned up, he was fine. But maybe that wasn't the problem?
> ...


I have *no idea* what would cause a frog's hind legs to act this way, sorry.
But one thing pops up at me that may be an issue?
Do you bowl feed the crickets and locust?  Or do the frogs hunt their own food?  The substrate you're using could cause an impaction risk if swallowed.  White's are notorious for dive bombing their food, and the substrate must be indigestible if feeding that way.  Something like coco fiber or paper towels.
If you bowl feed, then nevermind...
Otherwise the behavior could be neurological?  I see you're dusting with calcium, so I don't think MBD is an issue...
Do you have a vet nearby?

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## Patsy

I agree with Bolisnide on the substrate. Even if you bowl feed a cricket could get loose and there's a chance your frog will ingest the bark. I'm not sure about frogs but I know that with bearded dragons if they have an impaction they could have paralysis in their legs.

I would quarantine him from the other frog. And dust crickets daily with calcium w/D3. Clean the water and food bowls daily. Find a vet. 

I had a white's tree frog with a similar problem, I would find her with stiff straight legs. By the time I found a vet that would see her she was having seizures and I would find her on her back in her water bowl. Fecal showed parasites and we treated her and her tank mate for that. She was too small to get any blood work from to see see if she had any deficencies. Even though I dusted daily, the vet said that her reflexes and posture looked like MBD. I was convinced it was neurological. 



About your enclosure ....try positioning the vine and the plants up high in the tank. Whites tree frogs like to climb and be up high.

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## Lynn

Sorry   :Frown: 
Patsy and Lindsey have given you excellent advice.
You do what to switch substrate..........to cocoa fiber instead.

Please let us know : 
WATER! - what water are you using- It must always be de- chlorinated 
EXACTLY- which calcium product are you using.

This sound like it could be symptoms of MBD- (even know you have been dusting )  
It could be as a result of some food competition?
I wood remove this frog and put it into into own little 'hospital' tank
A seperate take will enable him to eat well and you will be ablt to do treatment soak, monitor food intak and poop.
Feed him well, and daily for a while-- make sure his feeder is not too large
Do the pedi alternated w/ honey soaks for a couple days.
Do the homey soak first so the frog can rinse in the pedi soak. 

In the link below ... toward the bottom of the post information about a rescue product for calcium deficiency:
You might get an order placed for this --just to have on hand. Please read all about if first. 
You might seriously consider taking this little guy to a herp vet ! 
Fluker&#39;s Liquid Calcium

Instructions for the soaks/quarantine are here:
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-supplies.html

Note:
I see you have your 'country' as Scotland. 
In the US plain  Pedialyte is a electrolyte replacement used sick children and infants.
Here it is found in any supermarket or pharmacy. I'm not sure of the Brand name of a product like this if you live live Scotland.
It's likely there thought, it's made by Abbott Pharmaceuticals.

Keep in touch-Lynn

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## Heather

Hello. I wanted to comment to tell you that when I read this, I agree 100% with both Bolisnide and Sasha. 

I would recommend bowl feeding and would change the substrate to coconut fiber. Avoid the husk. Change your substrate monthly if you do not have a false bottom.

It's very important to get a hygrometer to keep track of humidity. 

What brand of calcium are you using? Does it have vitamin D3 in it?

I would put the little one in a hospital tank with just paper towel flooring, changed daily, a water bowl rinsed and refilled daily, and most importantly use the calcium with vitamin D3 every day to see if the leg movement improves. I would also pick up some Herptivite or Repashy multivitamin and dust one day a week with it. It could be another deficiency. Cover 3 sides of the tank to make him feel safe. This allows you to monitor his intake and pooping, and if it's an infection it helps to prevent spread. Monitor his feces also for color and consistency.

Please keep us posted.

Great answers Bolisnide and Sasha!!!

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## Heather

Hey everyone, 

Thank you so much for your quick replies and loads of advice  :Smile: 

To answer your questions, no we don't bowl feed, we let them chase the food themselves, so it is possible he's swallowed some of the bark. We were told the bark would be fine for them but the more I read posts on here the more I doubt about some pet stores... anyway, coco fibre is on its way now.
We're using mountain spring water that's bottled at source about 20 miles away. 
The calcium powder is Nutrobal, it does include D3 and a bunch of other vitamins and minerals in a long list.

I got some UK-Pedialyte (it's called Dioralyte here) and we'll quarantine him and give him honey and pedi baths like you recommended.

Should the hospital tank also be vertical with a lot of height, or would a lower one be ok too?

There is an exotics vet about an hour away, I'll give them a phone tomorrow after we see how he does tonight.

He's sleeping at the bottom of one of the tank walls and seems to be happy enough right now, we'll get a better idea when he wakes up later.

Thanks again!

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## Heather

Update: Ritty sat in the pedi bath for 10 minutes, did a huge poop (I have never been more proud!) and was climbing around the quarantine tank within minutes!! He looked a lot skinnier after that poop but he ate two dusted smallish locusts and filled out again. He really seems a lot happier. We're not out of the woods yet but he was scaling the walls like a pro - it's amazing, such a huge difference from earlier!

The poop was watery and had lots of little brown flakes in it, it was also pretty large with respect to its owner. Not sure what that means, but I figure some of you guys might?

Thank you everybody so much for all the advice.  :Big Grin:   I would have been panicking and probably overhandling him on my own and I wouldn't even have thought of using pedialyte for frogs.

I've cleaned out the soaking dish and refilled it and I'll give him soaks for the next days and make sure he eats and poops and looks ok.

I've been up through the night here with him so it's bedtime now but thank you, thank you!

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## Lynn

Hi Heather,
Hang in there.You're on the mend.   :Smile: 
Just keep an eye on the poop. ( that is not in the water) 
If it's runny - you will need to bring (a  poop ) a fecal sample to the vet to have it tested for parasites. If this were to be positive; quick fix! You simply dust feeders w/ a medication once a week for a month or so.

Keep us posted.  :Butterfly:

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## Patsy

That's good news Heather, keep us updated!

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## Will

Heather, Glad to hear things are looking better.  Whites are very big eaters and with that comes big poops.  There are a couple times when I was spot cleaning I would have swore that an animal 3 times their size was in there.  Keep up the good work and follow Lynn & Heathers advice, they are 2 of the smartest froggin ladies I know!

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## Heather

Great to hear!

See of you can catch a poo sample. It sounds as though a nice panacur treatment would do him well. It's easy to tolerated and they feel so much better ridding their bellies of the infectious agents. Persistent runny poo is usually a sign needing treatment.

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## Heather

Everything's still looking good on night two. He took another pedi bath and ate some more dusted locusts. Legs seem normal - he was hopping around and climbing up my arm. Only problem tonight was that I couldn't get him to sit still in the soak for 15 minutes! 

Changed to using paper towels as the substrate until the coco fibre arrives, it should give me a chance to spot poop easily so I can keep an eye on that too. And no risk of them shoving it into their mouths! Good to know treatment could be so easy. I'll give the vet a phone to see if he'll do a fecal, and price etc, even if it does look ok it's better to be safe  :Smile: 

Glad we have the advice of wonderful froggers on our side.  :Big Grin:

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## Patsy

> Everything's still looking good on night two. He took another pedi bath and ate some more dusted locusts. Legs seem normal - he was hopping around and climbing up my arm. Only problem tonight was that I couldn't get him to sit still in the soak for 15 minutes!


I use a 4 cup plastic Gladware bowl. Poke air holes in the top (from the underside of the lid up). Fill it with enough water to cover the frog to his chin. His feet will get wet and he can't stick to the plastic sides of the bowl, he will just keep sliding into the water. After a few minutes of trying to climb the side of the bowl he should tire out sit in the water. Just keep an eye on him so that he doesn't stick his head under the water.

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## Gail

Happy to read the good news!!

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## Heather

Great job!!! How are his legs moving when he climbs? Does he have full motion of his legs? Any more feet curling?

I'm so glad to hear he's doing better  :Smile: . 

I'd still do a fecal lab test to be on the safe side.

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## Heather

Thanks, Sasha, for the bathing tip! We had been compromising with him and getting him to sit half in, half out. 

No more feet curling, he's climbing fine - moving all of his legs and able to hold on, just looking slightly weaker than usual. I'm hoping this is a result of having been not well and it may take a few more days before he's back to full normality. He's been stalking locusts and eating them fine too. Keeping up with the pedi and honey baths.

Got a huge poop this morning, will take it to the vet tomorrow hopefully to see if there is an underlying tummy problem.

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## Patsy

This is all good news! Glad the bath tip worked. I just recently figured that out with my Shrek, he had a very tiny prolapse and I gave him a honey bath. He was NOT happy! Let us know what the vet says tomorrow.

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## Heather

Glad to hear  :Smile: . Please keep us posted.

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## Heather

Everything still lookin good, didn't get a chance to get over to the vet today but I called and they'll do a fecal for £10 so I will deliver the offending poop to them tomorrow morning  :Smile:  Let you guys know when the results come back  :Smile:

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## Heather

Great! We'll be waiting to hear.

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## Heather

Got the test results back - the nurse says the sample had a few, not loads, but a few parasites. She says nothing necessarily needs done but if he's being acting funny recently treatment is a good idea for the long run. They'd like to see him to get a look and weigh him etc.

A few questions - if one of them has a few parasites will both of them need tests/treatment? Could I give treatment to Bertie as well without getting him looked at too? They've been together all the time we've had them and living in the same conditions so is it even possible that only one of them will have the parasites?
It's £30 (~$45) for a consultation (I assume any treatment is not included in this fee); is that a standard charge for a vet? It seems a lot to me, but then I am a final year student...

Anyway, not fantastic news but it also seems as if nothing too huge is wrong and the previous issues were bark-consumption related.

(Also been reading threads about gut-loading and I've got the insects on a new varied diet which they (and hopefully the frogs) are enjoying!)

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## Heather

> Got the test results back - the nurse says the sample had a few, not loads, but a few parasites. She says nothing necessarily needs done but if he's being acting funny recently treatment is a good idea for the long run. They'd like to see him to get a look and weigh him etc.
> 
> A few questions - if one of them has a few parasites will both of them need tests/treatment? Could I give treatment to Bertie as well without getting him looked at too? They've been together all the time we've had them and living in the same conditions so is it even possible that only one of them will have the parasites?
> It's &#163;30 (~$45) for a consultation (I assume any treatment is not included in this fee); is that a standard charge for a vet? It seems a lot to me, but then I am a final year student...
> 
> Anyway, not fantastic news but it also seems as if nothing too huge is wrong and the previous issues were bark-consumption related.
> 
> (Also been reading threads about gut-loading and I've got the insects on a new varied diet which they (and hopefully the frogs) are enjoying!)


Yes, they will both need treated and you'll need to clean out their house. They will likely need Panacur once a week for 4 weeks. I would recommend this. Parasites do not go away on their own. I'm glad you had them tested. Their fecal exams should be negative for any parasites. There is no need to have a second fecal exam done for the other...it will almost certainly have the same parasites. I would keep them in a hospital tank until they finish the full treatment. This also allows you time to clean and kill any parasites in their home.

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## Heather

At least the treatment is straightforward and not stressful for them. 

Could I use a large cricket pen (20.3 x 30.5 x 21.3 cm) for transporting them? I'm guessing this would be too small for a hospital tank though? 

How can I prevent this from happening again, other than being more vigilant with cleaning? Will the little guys have caught something like this from unclean tank, or food source or ? I hate to think I've caused them any unpleasantness and want to learn everything I can learn about preventing it in the future.

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## Patsy

Most likely if one has it the other does. As long as the vet knows the weight of the other frog he should be able to just give you the medicine. Shrek was being treated for parasites when I got Olive and Skitter. On one of our visits I brought their samples in to be tested and they were positive. I had weighed Olive and Skitter on a food scale before my visit and he was able to give me doses for each of them.

As far as the cricket keeper, you can use that to travel back and forth to the vet. Just make sure there are no holes for them to crawl out. I would get something a little bigger for a hospital tank.

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## Heather

Got the little guys an appointment at their new vet on Friday. Since he's never seen them before the vet said just bring both in so he can have a look at them. That way if there's anything we've not noticed, he will. 

Other than that, things seem ok, they're both a little less active than usual but both going for food and legs working ok. Got a treat for them tonight - baths and LOTS of crickets!! Keeping the baths up every few days till we're told something more direct by the vet.

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## Gail

I hope all goes well at the vet.  Having sick babies is no fun.

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## Heather

It can be from their home or from their food source. Good luck at the vet! Please keep us updated.

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## Heather

Thanks for all the support guys  :Smile:  hopefully the little guys'll be perky and happier soon.

Few questions about transporting them tomorrow ... we have a reasonably big plastic storage box that we sometimes feed them in, we'll use that to transport them. The journey will be around an hour to get there (and an hour to get home again). It's pretty cold up here right now; around 40F. We need to walk (outside) for about 20minutes in total. I was planning on strapping a hot water bottle to the box and enclosing the whole thing in a thick towel. I'll take a thermometer too, so we can adjust the heating as much as possible. Can you think of any better ways to keep them cosy?

In terms of enclosure, I'll use some coco fibre since they seem to like that, plus a water dish, a vine and some plastic plants. 

Hopefully they will sleep during the journey.

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## Gail

I use a small deli type cup with holes in it with paper towel on the bottom of the container.  Make sure the holes are punched from the inside out so the inside is smooth.  I then use one of those foot warmer things that people put in their shoes and stick it to the bottom of a insulated bag.  Put a wash cloth over the foot warmer since they can get very warm.  I put the container in there and just keep and eye on the temps.  They stay warm for hours.

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## Heather

It would be easier to keep a smaller container warm, but wouldn't the frogs get stressed out by being enclosed like that?

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## Gail

Mine was fine, didn't even change his colors.  The container was about 5 inch round and he was in a nice dark, warm, moist place.

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## Heather

Excellent, we have plastic soup containers we can use that are a little bigger than that. 
Thanks  :Smile:

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## Patsy

Good luck Heather. Let us know how it goes.

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## Heather

Just back from the vet. He thinks they look a bit sluggish and there's a bit of a size difference but otherwise just fine. 

Treatment - 5 day worming treatment in a solution form, to syringe into their mouths or inject into bugs. He tried to give them the first dose today but they were being stubborn little things! Going to get some meal worms to bulk them up a bit and they'll be easy to catch too.

He also recommended getting a UVa bulb, since apparently amphibians see in tetra-colour. They never fail to fascinate me!

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## Heather

I would avoid mealworms, they can cause impaction. You could try earthworms cut to size.

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## Will

also if you cannot get a hold of earthworms, you can look for Wax Worms.  They are very fatty so not a regular diet item, but the whites seem to really like them and will usually gobble them right up.

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## Heather

> I would avoid mealworms, they can cause impaction. You could try earthworms cut to size.


Said mealworms, meant wax worms. Apologies!

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## Gail

If you have to give oral meds and they are eating well, inject the meds into the wax worms or crickets, roaches, what ever you are feeding.  This is what I did and it works GREAT!!!

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## Heather

I was lucky with that yesterday, and I dropped the grub into Ritty's mouth whilst he was shedding  -  success! He looked a little confused but seemed to enjoy it when he realised it was edible  :Smile: 

I've yet to get them to open their mouths for the med syringe but my partner's found the knack to it. He annoys them gently till they grab the thing then scoot!  Two days to go and they should be on the way up again  :Smile:

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## Heather

Last night of yukky medication for the little ones tonight.

Both seem a little run down, like the vet said they would, not eating or hopping around as much as usual. 
Aside from being a bit skinny, they look fine - bright eyes, good reactions, brightly coloured, shiny skin. Ritty's limbs still seem stiff and I'm keen to get plenty calcium and protein into him but he doesn't seem interested in food. Any tips? 
I'm planning to gut load, dust and inject the meds into some bugs tonight to give him everything he needs with minimal stress.

Once the meds are done, it's plenty vits and bugs to get them back into shape.

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