# General Topics > Vivarium, Terrarium & Enclosure Discussion >  AGTF Newbie! Zillions of questions! Halp

## karikatzi

OK I have a zillion questions for you all, but first here's the background....

So I bought 2 cute, fat, lil frogs from a friend. I believe they are a male & female as one is larger, she had had them for a year. The setup I got included a 10 gallon vertical tank, coconut substrate, a dead looking pillow moss, 2 sticks (no idea if they were sterilized first but I doubt it), a plant, looks like a rubber-tree plant(? but not sure. It's pretty big) a deep pyrex dish for swimming, a jelly jar lid for feeding, various rocks and a bottle of dried meal worms.  

Attachment 72835

I then replaced the bowl & lid with 2 ReptiRock dishes (a small for feeding and medium for splashing in). Chucked the moss covered skinny stick and got a sand blasted grapevine instead (I cut off the sharp nubs, sanded, washed and dried it). Threw out the dead moss and got some moss floor covering, hoping it would be like a meshed together carpet but it's a bit too crumbly and ends up in the water bowl every night. Just took it all out, washed it and am drying it flat, so maybe it will be a bit more carpet like this time? I got an Exoterra mini canopy light with a 13 watt UVB light, which I've only put on for an hour or so a day so far and turn off when they hide under the leaves. And a temperature/humidity checker thingy (ye for being in Tennessee, no problems there so far). Got some small, gut-loaded crickets (& that whole setup) and some live meal worms (the yummy calcium dip). Oh and just glued in a cork background, so that's curing till tomorrow. For now they're in a very shexy plastic tote with all the fixings and seem to be quite enjoying it. 



Well that's question 1, how can you tell when they're happy? The smaller one, Mr Hopkins generally hangs out up top and comes down in the evening. The larger one Beryl just sits in the top corner or under the leaf, but my friend tells me she's the big waterbowl fan and makes a mess of it everynight. Hopkins goes dark occasionally not black dark, just darker green is that OK? They don't seem to like the crickets, I rescued 3 out of there when I emptied it out just now. I guess they were hiding in the moss? Is the moss to fluffy? They did eat a live meal worm each just now and another 2 about 5 days ago. I think 1 cricket is AWOL so hopefully he got ate too. Right now they're both mooching around checking out the new digs trying to find a comfy spot. How can you tell when they're stressed?

OK and another big question is to false-bottom or not to false-bottom? is it worth it if I don't have a water feature? should I just put a gravel layer at the bottom for drainage and a false-bottom sheet then the coconut substate?

How do I clean the new cork background?

And what plants are good for AGTF? This rubberplant thingy seems so huge, I also got what I believe is called Spikemoss (but don't worry it's very soft) latin name according to the interwebs is Selaginella and this little guy, absolutely no idea what it is though, other that 2" foilage from Home Depot. Both say they like being kept moist, I know the moss spreads but stays short, thoughts?



And what about their not liking crickets only meal worms, my friend did say she'd spoiled them by pretty much only giving them meal worms. Anyone have any good ideas how to get them back on a healthy diet of less compacting food? Also how the heck are you supposed to dip a cricket in calcium powder? Hee hee

OK I'm sure I'll think of more questions, but for now I'll appreciate all the help I can get, thanks in advance!

K

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## Josh

Ok, let's see on what I can help with  :Smile: . I may not be able to cover it all, but I'll try to get most.

 First of all, tank size. A ten gallon high is a suitable quarantine tank for a frog, but a permanent tank needs to be larger. For two AGTFs, I would buy an 18x18x24 exo terra tank.

Since you've already shown that you want live plants, some things have to happen. To grow plants, you need to get a light that has a certain color temperature measured in Kelvins. The recommended range is 5700K - 6500K. I just found two Compact Fluorescent (CFL) bulbs with a 6500K temp today at home depot for $8, so they're not too hard to find. 

Another option is LED lighting. Aquatraders.com has some amazing LED prices, or you could get an 18" BeamsWork LED from Amazon for like $40. LED lighting has just reached the point where it is affordable, and they last super long, and are perfect for plants. Many vivarium keepers are switching to LED's right now. Also, if you wish for LEDs in your compact top, joshsfrogs.com and neherpetoculture.com have very good ballast style bulbs.

A third option is just regular old fluorescent lighting, like you see in the ceilings of schools or office buildings. T5HO (high output) bulbs are the best of these, and are known to grow plants like crazy! Just ask Paul, one of our moderators, lol. You can find the bulbs and fixtures at Home Depot or Lowe's I believe.

Now for drainage. I would keep it simple. Go to petsmart or petco, and find hydroballs or LECA balls. This serves the purpose of letting water collect below the soil level, and prevent bog conditions. You could then get fiberglass screening material or weed block from a hardware store to serve as a layer between the drainage layer and the soil. If you want to save money, aquarium gravel works for drainage as well, but it REALLY weighs the tank down.

Soil. I'm sorry, but coco fiber just isn't suited for plants, or moss. What you need is ABG (Atlanta Botanical Garden) mix, another version (like from neherpetoculture.com) or a home-made version of mix. You can find ABG mix at both joshsfrogs and neherpetoculture, as well as other sites. For an 18x18x24, two bags minimum, with three being for some extra security. If you don't want to deal with soil, just buy a bag of ABG and pot some plants in it and stick the potted plants in the tank.

Grapewood. I'm sorry, but this also won't work. Grapewood unfortunately will mold and rot in anything above 50% humidity. Mopani, malaysian driftwood, ghostwood, cork, and manzanita branches all work. They also need to be soaked in a 10% bleach, 90% water solution and baked in the oven at 200F for an hour before being placed in the tank (obviously after cooling  :Wink: )

The water dish should allow the frog to soak, but doesn't need to be swim-depth. The water should come to the frogs chin.

Food! Mealworms are a no-no. They have chitin, which can cause impaction in a frog (food that cannot be digested right). The gut-loaded crickets should be the main staple. Also, you need to dust the crickets with a calcium w/D3 supplement, as well as a multivitamin supplement. Here's a very good thread for that:http://www.frogforum.net/food-feeder...schedules.html You can also use the pyrex dish to bowl-feed your frogs. The crickets cannot climb the glass, and are too dumb to jump. This way the crickets don't just roam and bite the frogs, or die in the vivarium.

Humidity. The tank should be at 70% - 80% humidity. For this, you should cover a screen lid at least 60-75% with Seram wrap or maybe even packing tape, maybe not the tape. Analog, and even most digital hygrometers have a 10% + error on humidity levels, so are usually not to be trusted. If the frogs are doing well, and the plants as well, you'll know the humidity is right.

Temperature. Should be 70-74 at night, and 73-78 during the day. Enough said.

Plants. That is selaginella, and the other plant is called Pilea Watermelon _Pilea Cadieri_ because the leaves look like little watermelons  :Smile:  I would definitely go with pothos and snake plants, as they are sturdy enough to hold the weight of tree frogs. There are a few others, but I cannot remember them right now. Just keep in mind the humidity and light requirements of the plants as well.

Also, for lighting, you should have the light on twelve hours a day, and turned off during nighttime. This gives the frogs a natural day/night cycle.

As for the happiness: Frogs aren't really "happy" per-say, but they can be healthy. As long as their coloring doesn't change dramatically a lot, and as long as they are well-kept, they will be "happy".

The background shouldn't need to be "cleaned" It won't get really dirty, becuase, well, nothing in nature really gets "dirty", it's just naturally like that. The cork background is actual bark, so it's not going to be clean like a bathroom or kitchen, but it is like what is in the frogs' natural environment.

I think I covered most of it. 

Couple questions now:

What glue did you use to attach the cork background? (very important)

What is your budget for the frogs? Keep in mind that the more you spend on the initial setup, the less you'll have to spend in the long run. I've already made the mistake of NOT spending enough money.

Do you know if the frogs are captive bred, or are they wild caught? Where did your friend get them from?

And a big question: Do you want vivarium/live-plant syle, or are you ok with a fake plant, carpet-bottomed tank? The second option is much cheaper, but the first is MUCH more beautiful and natural. Both set-ups will work well for the frog, it really matters what YOU want.

Any more questions, just ask away. I'm not the expert, but I try my best to help. It's a lot of information to take in, but doing it one step at a time makes it a lot easier. Frogs can actually be in Quarantine tanks (paper towel bottom, food and water dish, lighting, top, and maybe a fake plant) for even years, so you can take your time on giving them a good setup that will last for years as well. 

Also, here are some good threads to look at:

http://www.frogforum.net/care-sheet-...ves-final.html
http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...ion-101-a.html

And a little Ethos for me  :Smile: 

http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...d-journal.html

I hope you enjoy taking care of these animals, as they are very special, and are completely dependent on you. If taken care of, they will provide you with entertainment and joy for years.  :Frog Smile:

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## Eli

Josh has you covered :Smile: ! I'm not sure if he mentioned this, mostly cause i got lost in his response, but my method for dusting crickets is i put the crickets in a cup, pour a little tiny bit of powder in and swish them around until they are covered and add more if necessary. Poor crickets get dizzy but they're gonna die anyway

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## bill

Nice write up josh! A few notes though, yes, the one plant is selaginella Kraussiana "gold tip", the other, unfortunately, is not a pilea. It has the wrong stem/leaf structure. I wi figure out the plant later. 

The t5ho lighting that Home Depot sells isn't really an option for most people.  They are commercial fixtures without reflectors or wiring. You have to wire them yourself and build reflectors for them as well. That, coupled with the fact that the depot doesn't sell t5ho bulbs in the correct color temp. Best bet is aquatraders for them as well. I have about 6 of their t5ho fixtures and they are wonderful  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Josh

Lol, sorry, meant peperomia watermelon, woops. I saw it on neherp, and I remembered the watermelon, just mixed up the beginning. _Peperomia argyreia_ for the scientific name. I should know my pileas, I have two in my new tank, lol. Sorry about the mix-up.

Oh and like Bill said about the lighting. Aquatraders is really the best place for lighting. Bill's like their main salesman, lol.  :Wink:

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## Josh

Oh, and Eli, I use the same method, too. It's really simple and easy. Just remember to clean the cup out afterwards too Karikatzi. I actually shake the egg carton that's in my cricket container over a shallow storage container, and I usually get about 4-6 crickets. That way you don't have to somehow grab the crickets with your fingers from the container, but rather just scoop them up with a paper towel roll, and piece of paper, or even your hand.

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## karikatzi

yikes, that is a lot of info. OK let's see so yah it's a 12x12x18" tank  that's 10 gallon right? They've been living in it happily for a year  already, what's the down side of not getting a larger tank? More  frequent cleaning needed? Bacteria build up? I'll have to see if I can  convince the hubs they need more space.

I'm not committed to live  plants, but it would be nicer to look at and for the frogs too I'm  sure. The tank is in a nice bright room, and again this rubbertree plant  thingy has grown so big with no light at all, in my friends also sunny  front room. I got the light because my instinct said it would help the  larger of the two who didn't seem to move around very much. I'd read  about the lack of UVB and calcium causing pain so thought maybe that was  why. As for budget I've spent about $250 setting these guys up so far  (shhhh don't tell the hubs) and not sure I can go too much further other  than maintenance at least for a while, then I can sneak in more goodies  over time. Hee hee. So if there's a not-huge-investment change I can do  for the lighting that would be favorite. Now I have a UVB 100, 13w bulb  by exoterra. Can't see anything on the box about kelvins but I'm all  about frog comfort over plant growth so will this do or should I see  about your other suggestions?

I like the drainage idea. Ha! I already had the hydroballs in my Amazon  cart, so that doesn't count as extra spending right? How about the  weekly cleaning. Do you scoop the whole thing out and wash it all,  false-bottom and all? Or just the top of the subtrate? How deep do I go?

Soil  so would the plants live in the soil they're already potted in, stuck  in the coconut fiber? Or just no, don't even bother? I'll look for ABG  mix but I want to get them all set up tomorrow when the cork has done  curing. It's Aqueon aquarium silicone sealant without mold inhibitors by the way. 

Gah  so bummed I didn't find this forum till after I'd gone shopping and the  PetSmartians really didn't know squat. I guess the grapewood is for dry  conditions and repitles  :Frown:  OK getting new wood

"The water dish should allow the frog to soak, but doesn't need to be swim-depth. The water should come to the frogs chin." check!

So  mealworms are a very sometimes food, got it. I have Flukers calcium w/D3 powder  but what do you recommend for the additional multivitamin supplement? And didn't I read somewhere to not do the calcium with the added D if you're using a light? And a silly question but what is the average lifespan of a treefrog? The dusting schedule says baby, juvenile, semi-adult, adult but how do I know where these guys are on that scale? Gah it would be so much easier if they could talk!

  And really crickets bite the frogs? Little buggers! The ones I got from the  petstore are pale and jump a lot, they can certainly jump out of the Pyrex dish no? I'll try it, but am I getting the wrong sort? Is it worth  getting a bunch and breeding them? As far as I can tell from the 2 butt  prongs, I got all males this time. Feeding them Flukers high calcium gutload food again, any other recommendations?

The humidity is usually at 75-85, as I said we're in hot and steamy TN,  but when the HVAC kicks on this fall I will prolly do the seran cover thing. Plus  at the mo I keep the cheesy fake plants that came with the tank on top  of the screen so I think that is helping to keep the humidity in too. I  got a National Geographic thermo/hygrometer are they bad? Which would  you recommend? 

So the frogs were rescued by my friend's husband, when he found them in  the middle of a hot asphalt parking lot, nowhere near trees or  anything!? He bought them home and she went out and bought the tank  setup that the pet store guy told her. As I said she has had them for  about a year, up until now when the kids decided they wanted a bunny  instead. So probably wild caught unless someone dumped their captive bred frogs in a parking lot?

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## Josh

Ok. I see that you have already spent quite a bit on the frogs, so I'm guessing you don't want to go into the  whole custom background/false bottom/expensive light fixture set-up.

For one- no evidence has really been seen that has proven that UVB lights are required for frogs. Some people using them have claimed that the frog looked healthier, but that could just be an opinion/other variable thing. UVB is more of a requirement for Bearded dragons and other such reptiles.

You're first question: The larger tank size isn't necessarily about maintenance, but rather allowing each frog to have enough room to be comfortable, and to have it's own little niche.  Think about it. These animals, in the wild, have literally acres of space to roam around, and we are putting them in something 1000x smaller. So the main goal with doing this is to make the tank as close to their natural environment as possible, so that the animal/frog is more comfortable, and doesn't feel so out of place.

For the plant issue, this is what I would recommend. For now, since you have already spent a butt-load of money (don't we all  :Smile: ), I would stick with your compact top. The next time you go to the hardware store, look around the light section (CFLs in particular) and look for a light with a Kelvin rating 5700-6500K (usually found on back of package). Just today, I found two great ones at Home Depot with 6500K for like $8! For soil, I would order a bag of ABG mix from neherpetoculture.com, or joshsfrogs.com, or I even found that joshsfrogs has it on amazon.com. Regular potting soil, miraclegro, and coco fiber don't have the nutrients that plants require, and can often cause root rot. I would plant your live plants in pots, and place the pots in the coco-fiber substrate. This way, you don't have to pay a lot of money for more ABG mix, and the plants still get nutrients. The bottom of the pots would have to have a drainage hole, and they would have to be above the drainage layer of course. Also, this way the plants look like they are planted in the soil, but they really don't have to be.

Supplements: I'm not sure about the reputability of the Fluker's calcium w/D3 brand, but it should be ok for now. At petsmart or petco, you can find rep-cal brand multi-vitamin, which is what I use, or the best of the best, Repashy brand Supervite. 

Cleaning: Maintenance usually isn't that difficult. Make sure to change out the water in the dish every day. Clean out any food or cricket dishes between meals. You can spray the glass with distilled water to clean it (doesn't leave water spots). If you wish, you may spot clean frog poop, but most people prefer to let it just, let us call it, compost. If you so desire, you may completely clean out the tank, while trying not to stress out the frogs, every 3-6 months. Also, the layer of weeblock or screening between the drainage and soil prevents the coco fiber from getting down into the drainage layer.

Water: One super, super important thing I completely forgot about. You're water must be dechlorinated. At pet stores, you can find "tap water conditioners", which will allow you to make tap-water completely safe for the frogs. If the water is not conditioned, it could very easily make the frog sick. You can buy a $5 bottle that will last you several months. Once again, conditioned tap water for water dish and plants, and distilled for misting and cleaning glass.

Also, can you measure the frogs when they are on the glass, so we can determine what stage in life they are in?

Oh, and the average life in the wild is I believe about 6 years, but they can live longer in captivity.

I don't breed my crickets, as they last a long time, and are super cheap. You're talking maybe $5 for 1 1/2 to 2 months if you take care of the crickets. I have a storage container that I cut a hole in the top, taped screening material on top of the whole, and then placed egg cartons and their food and water in, super simple. Some of course die, but the majority live.

And yes, the frogs are probably wild-caught. If not now, then in the near future, I would find the closest exotic animal vet near you (typically found in big cities), and bring in poop from both frogs to be tested for bacteria or parasites, etc. I'm not sure what you would tell your hubby, but you seem pretty smart to me  :Wink: .

I would also get some fake plants, with no sharp edges or tips, and suction them in the corners, or up high in the tank. Being tree frogs, they tend to like to have things up high to climb on. 

As for the national geo hygro and thermometer, I haven't had experience with them, as they are fairly new to the market. Generally, the best is to use a simple glass thermometer placed on the glass, and your own mind for the humidity. As long as the plants are doing well, the frogs should too.

Any more questions, just shoot 'em our way  :Smile:

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## karikatzi

Ahhh OK that helps thanks. Yeah been using distilled water, we have a whole house filter but I don't trust it with the heavy metals.

"Also, can you measure the frogs when they are on the glass, so we can determine what stage in life they are in?" Big frogger is 2", smaller frog 1.75" so what's that adult?

What size storage container do you keep your crickets in? Good to know you can get a bunch and keep them I wasn't sure and so just got 6. But I did get the blue water gel and food so I'm ready for the cricket Hotel California (you can hop anytime you like but you can never leave!)

About bringing in the frog poop (now there's a sentence I never thought I would have to write), isn't it a wee bit on the, how shall we say, non legal side to have wild caught anything and therefore shouldn't really bring it to the attention of anyone? Shhhh.. I didn't not say nothing  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

Also , I was just checking out the pothos and snake plants you suggested, isn't the snake plant kinda spiky on the ends there? Will that hurt their skin?

Anyhooo thanks so much for all the info, gonna drag the kids out tommorrow to the Home Depot to look at carpet for the den (wink wink) and some screening, lightbulbs and plants might accidentally fall inot my cart on the way out the door... Ooops! Hee hee

Sweet froggy dreams y'all!

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## karikatzi

Oooh this is what I have, the blerb says it's got a *6700K Color temperature*. Yey... I think

 
     The Exo Terra Natural Light is a full spectrum daylight bulb with a very  high visual light output and high color rendering index (98 CRI). With  its high visual light output and *6700K Color temperature*, the Natural  Light Terrarium Bulb is recommended as general light source for all  terrarium types. The high light output makes this bulb ideal for planted  terrariums and it's even suitable for animals with lower UV  requirements, such as snakes, amphibians (frogs, toads and salamanders)  and nocturnal animals.  _A great choice for live vivariums._  (Formerly called REPTIGLO 2.0 UVB)

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## Josh

Nice, 6700K is typically what the sun is at at noon time. The snake plant isn't a problem either, I haven't really noticed a "spiky part", but the frogs are used to experiencing things like thorns and other "spiky" plants in the wild, so it shouldn't be a problem, unless there actually is somehow a thorn growing out of a snake plant  :Frog Surprise: . 

Now, I would keep the snake plant and the peperomia in the back half of the tank, as they tend to grow taller, and then stick the selaginella and the pothos in the front half. You can choose whatever plant design you want, though, and I think planting the tank is one of the best parts of the build  :Smile: .

It looks like you've got two adults. The 1.75" one may be a sub-adult female nearing adulthood, but the important thing is really their size. When buying crickets, the clerk should always give you size options. The rule of thumb is that the length of the cricket's body should be no longer than the width between the frog's eyes. Weird, right? But it typically is the rule, as this means that it is the appropriate size for the frog to digest. If they only have really big, and really small crickets, smaller is better, as you can always just feed more.

My cricket container is roughly 1ft. x 8in. x 1ft. WxDxH. It's only that small because I don't really have much more room in my bedroom for a larger container. It's just a simple plastic storage container, modified like I said earlier with a screen top. I have it stacked up with egg cartons, which they hide in. I usually buy about 4 dozen crickets every month to month and a half, which is about $5 generally. If you can store a larger container, do it, because this allows for more crickets to be bought, and it's just a lot better for them.

I don't believe that it is illegal to catch AGTFs in North Carolina, as they are plentiful, and really aren't linked to any diseases among humans. But if a vet were to ask, you could easily just tell them it's captive bred, as many people will fecal test their frogs when they buy them, just to be sure that they aren't carrying parasites or diseases.

One last tip, too: When looking for plants at Home Depot, make sure they're sturdy!  :Smile:

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## bill

I wouldn't worry too much about having them tested for parasites, since they have been living in their enclosure for a year. If they did have any issues, they would have appeared by now.  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## karikatzi

OK got the hydroballs in (I put some prettier looking rocks at the front to hide it though), then terrarium liner and then some moss. When my neherpetoculture order arrives next week, I'll take out the moss and put in the ABG then plant. But for now, they're much happier than they were in the tub they were in. Also I'm using the grapewood until the ghostwood I ordered comes, hopefully it wont mold too fast. I also stocked up on crickets while at the petco returning stuff today, yummm. Thanks so much for all your help Josh & Bill. I'll post a final pic once everything is in. Yey THANK YOOOOOU again!

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## Josh

Wow, very nice and clean looking  :Smile: . Ghostwood is awesome, I have some in my AGTF tank right now, and it's some of the best. Congratulations on actually taking the time, money, and effort to give the frogs a nice setup, it looks awesome!

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## bill

Hahaha! Looks like the frog is climbing the trellis in the last pic! Awesome! Looks great. It's a very nice first time Viv!!  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## karikatzi

The ghostwood and ABG mix finally arrived! Yey, here it is all planted and 2 fat happy froggles!

Thanks so much for your help ev'rbody!

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## karikatzi

Shoot i forgot the whole - soak your new ghostwood  in 10% bleach, 90% water - part and now I gots da mold  :Frown:  can I wash it and then soak and dry or is it done for?

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## bill

It would have grown mold anyway. Just let the mold cycle out. Takes a few weeks. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## karikatzi

> It would have grown mold anyway. Just let the mold cycle out. Takes a few weeks.


Really? And it wont hurt the frogs?

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## bill

Not if it's the normal white mold. It's normal in a new setup. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## karikatzi

I wish I took a picture before I washed it, there is a little fuzzy white mold but mostly it's a greenish blue litchen looking mold

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## Josh

Yeah, I thought I was getting some of the fresh vivarium mold on my ghostwood, until I realized that it was just the roots of my bromeliad growing in  :Wink:

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