# General Topics > Food, Feeders, Live, Frozen, Culturing, etc >  Dubia Colors

## Kreamcheese

So I recently noticed a few of my newly matured dubias have a strikingly different color than my other ones. I thought that maybe they haven't fully hardened yet from their molt but it's been days. 
The top pic is the new color of dubia I am seeing. And the second is the normal colors I usually see. Both are mature females. Anybody else have different color dubias like this?

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## MonsterPyxie

I forget what its called, but the first one looks like its from high humidity, it can mess with there color's.

The second one looks normal, but bright colored. funny thing is me and the wife where talking about this tonight. We picked out a few roaches, and noticed how some of the females where MUCH brighter orange colors, and stripes, while others where almost mostly black, and the color they did have was more of a brown.


If I remember too, I'll take some pictures of mine also  :Big Grin:

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## Kreamcheese

My humidity seems to be pretty normal. Whenever i add in oranges i take out the water crystals. On a side note I finally saw some baby nymphs today. Glad they're finally breeding  :Smile:

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## MonsterPyxie

> My humidity seems to be pretty normal. Whenever i add in oranges i take out the water crystals. On a side note I finally saw some baby nymphs today. Glad they're finally breeding


good to hear about the babies. What size is your colony again? and what is the humidity level?

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## Kreamcheese

Humidity last I saw was around 50% and I started with a small number of adults but about 300 large nymphs who are starting to molt into adults. I knew it wasn't be an instant thing because I didn't start with a bunch of adults.

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## MonsterPyxie

> Humidity last I saw was around 50% and I started with a small number of adults but about 300 large nymphs who are starting to molt into adults. I knew it wasn't be an instant thing because I didn't start with a bunch of adults.


Well 50% is about normal. I like to keep mine around 60%, its what I have found to work well. who knows...


300 large nymph's is the PERFECT starter colony IMO. Not to low numbers, but not so high that you send a ton of money. And with large nymphs, over adults, you don't have to worry about a bunch dying off due to "old age" or something else.

so while it will take 1-3 months for them to molt and be ready to breed, you will get the most babies, and production due to all of them being good breeding adults!

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## Kreamcheese

Yeah that was the plan. I decided against a ton of adults like you said cause of price and the possibility of them being old as hell  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## MonsterPyxie

I know humidity can screw with there colors..... just can't remember what its called :/

albino roach possible? idk.

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## Kreamcheese

I have a few that have these colors. Males too

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## MonsterPyxie

> I have a few that have these colors. Males too



I have had them also. but they never seem to last, or they get there dark colors back.

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## Jeff

Hypopigmented I think is the word you were looking for Monster = )

I have a few adults that look like that, I'm not really sure what the deal is to be honest. Could be the result of humidity during the molt as mentioned, could be something else. Whats weird is the lack of any yellow pigment, maybe its Axanthic! Can you have an axanthic invert?? lol!

But really, I have no clue. I'd say it will be able to function just fine and make babies still...hopefully. I've only ever witnessed the color change from humidity errors in nymphs, so I've no clue what adults look like a as a result, and your humidity does seem fine. Maybe its a fluke, the one in the second picture is a prime example of an adult female dubia though.

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## MonsterPyxie

> Hypopigmented I think is the word you were looking for Monster = )
> 
> I have a few adults that look like that, I'm not really sure what the deal is to be honest. Could be the result of humidity during the molt as mentioned, could be something else. Whats weird is the lack of any yellow pigment, maybe its Axanthic! Can you have an axanthic invert?? lol!
> 
> But really, I have no clue. I'd say it will be able to function just fine and make babies still...hopefully. I've only ever witnessed the color change from humidity errors in nymphs, so I've no clue what adults look like a as a result, and your humidity does seem fine. Maybe its a fluke, the one in the second picture is a prime example of an adult female dubia though.


time to separate that female, wait for a male to pop up, and start a whole new morph of roach!  :Big Grin: 

Thanks for the info Jeff, your the man!

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## Kreamcheese

I have a male with the same exact colors. Maybe it is just a fluke but who knows.

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## Sublime

All my adults are orange when I received them like your second picture.  We'll see with the new bloodline I got from Jeff though if they molt into a different color.  Haha everyone is bashing me for buying adults, nah jk.  It's cool - next time I'll make sure to get large nymphs.  Good to hear that they're breeding for you.

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## Badger

Try to breed the "Axanthic"s and see if it's genetic  :Big Grin:

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## MonsterPyxie

welp, here's my finding fella's.


*Here is a female with BRIGHT orange colors.*








*
Here is a different one with a seemingly unique patter on the head portion. (or prothorax)*





*
Here is a DARK pattern of sorts.*







*here is a white/albino/Axanthic female*







*notice her different shape, and the underside of her abdomen seems softer, and thinner, yet wider? kinda odd.


here is a male*














enjoy!

(kinda tempted to put the male and female together on there own, in there own tupperware....... HRM!

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## Jeff

I'm going to ask my friend Kyle about this one, he's a cockroach ascended being... do you guys mind if I use your pictures in the email I'll write him?

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## Kreamcheese

Not at all. If you're able to find out what might be the reasoning for this then please do!

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## MonsterPyxie

> I'm going to ask my friend Kyle about this one, he's a cockroach ascended being... do you guys mind if I use your pictures in the email I'll write him?


feel free to use mine.

the male looks like it could just be coming out of molt or something, I will check on them in the morning, and if they are still white, I will remove them and give them there own little home together. It will be a interesting experiment.

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## Jeff

I appreciate the photos guys, I used them in my email to Kyle and he promptly responded. THE RESULTS ARE IN!

I'm pasting his response to my email regarding the roach coloration and your pictures (the Very Light, The Very Dark, and the "Axanthic" looking adult females).

Kyle from Home - Roach Crossing , unde the username of "Zephyr" , "ZephyrG" and "ZephAmp"  on a number of invert related forums wrote:

*Message body* * "Hello Jeff. 
I have watched with a certain amount of amusement many people try to isolate various strains of dubias only for them to give up or the strains prove untrue in the end.
Some of these color differences may be genetic; for example, the dark and more-striped phenotypes appear to fit this mold. However, in the case of extremely orange individuals, the cause is more than likely entirely environmental. As dubias are often kept as feeders, they are also often kept in conditions that are not ideal for development (per say) and more oriented towards collecting nymphs and overall breeding. These tend to be drier than pet roach environments and thus individuals can molt with any number of physical anomalies. I have seen this in other species of Blaberid when crowding has been an issue; there are two sides of thinking involved. The first, which I believe, is that a lack of food, increased dryness, and decreased access to moisture other than ambient humidity causes a physiological defect in roach species that causes them to become hypopigmented. The other school of thought (which very well could be true but would need scientific experimentation) is that overcrowding in roaches causes them to emit pheromones causing effects similar to swarming locusts, signaled by a change in the coloration of the nymphs which can be molted out of. The reason I am inclined to think against this being the case is that it often takes several molts for roach nymphs to stop showing the effects of the coloration alteration.
However, in an argument for the genetic basis of these color changes, I have heard that in Germany they have isolated a light color morph of B. dubia (possibly another species but the news is relatively new), however from the pictures I have seen it does not resemble the orange dubias people have been finding in their colonies in the US.
I hope this helps clarify some things. :P  "
-Kyle 



** 
*

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## Badger

Buzzkill. I was hoping it would be genetic. Either way, thanks for the info Jeff, and once I finally can get a roach colony I'll keep an eye out for abnormalities.

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## Kreamcheese

Thank you Jeff for contacting kyle. That was great information that he had to say about what may be causing it.

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## MonsterPyxie

HRM. idk.

I know my roaches are at pretty optimum temp's, humidity, and have a premium food supply... Maybe to much of a good thing/s ?


I'm puzzled.

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## Jeff

I think the key phrase in Kyle's email was the "per say" in paranthesis. He makes a strong argument when he claims that dubia are raised for maximal production, and not necessarily "ideal." I'll elaborate:

Most serious roach enthusiasts create somewhat naturalistic caging for their inverts; this inlcudes a substrate, often dry hardwood/oak leaves, and decaying wood to munch on. Furthermore, this allow the ambient humidity to remain more constant and creates a number of constant food and moisture sources. The ideal B. dubia environment in all honestly is probably an enclosure with a coir based substrate, littered with oak leaves, and having lots of dead wood available for hiding and munching on. Also - the temperatures we keep them at for production are not their ideal. We actually kind of force them to grow at an extremely rapid rate for our production goals. Higher temperatures force them to dehydrate faster than they can absorb water for metabolic purposes (thats why roaches kept warmer seem to consume absolutely massive quanitity of moisture product).

Believe it or not, temperatures where B. dubia come from very seldom exceed ~86 degrees F. Can they handle 100? you bet, and you force their metabolism to go crazy which leads to roaches attaining adult size rapidly and therefore reproducing at a more rapid rate. B. dubia's optimal environment is honestly temperatures between 75-90 degrees MAX... probably a thermogradiant that allows for a high 70's cool end and an 88 degree hot spot. They may grow a little slower and breed a little slower, but thats the kind of environment they naturally live in. Also, overcrowding... while I agree they do breed better in crowded conditions (along with a number of other species, such as some in the Blaberus genus) that doesn't necessarily mean its optimal for their development. Pheromone production begins to dictate breeding as priority over doing other daily roachies activites, it becomes more of a massive orgy rather than living in boring normal roach land.

If they have a constant supply of food and a constant supply of moisture, they will do their best to reproduce at the maximal rate they can. Temperatures are proportional to growth in insects (to a certain point) because metabolism increases with temps. But that doesn't mean staying at a constant ultimate metabolism is good, and that may be representative in their pigmentation. Not saying that keeping them the way we do is "bad" because we are attaining our goal of producing as many nymphs as possible for our herps - but many of us rearing feeding insects would get back-handed by a die-hard roach enthusiast for keeping them the way we do LOL!

Edit: When I say "you" I'm not referring to anyone, should really read "we" because I keep my feeders on the hotter side, etc as well. I practically neglect half of my feeder colonies and baby the heck out of my collector species = )

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## Martin

JeffreH, that's an interesting post. Good thing I don't have any insect-loving friends...

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## badkelpie

Mine all looked like that after their adult shed.  I just assumed that it just took them a few days to get the orange.  All are normal colors now.

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## Sublime

@Jeff Yeah, that makes complete sense.  I actually subscribed to a guy on youtube by the name "TheRoachHut" - family run operated business stationed in the UK for collective & feeder species.  He shows you the amount of care that goes into the collective species with the coir based substrate and dead forest floor scatterings in the tank. 

I wanted to ask you a question though since you do have collector species... Have you ever come across Macropanesthia Rhinoseros (Giant Burowing Cockroach) or happen to own any?  These things are enormous size for roaches and have a life span of up to 10 years.

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## Jeff

This species is every roach enthusiasts dream = )

I have come across them for sale - usually quite rare but they pop up from time to time. Cheapest I've seen is ~$100 a nymph but I've seen upwards to $500 for older specimens. Keep in mind these guys take years to reach maturity... and they can be fragile. Dexter and Debbie are actually selling small nymphs:
Roaches

Occasionally a private seller will have them, and Kyle has a pair I think now (maybe more or less?). Only other actual name I've got in the US is Orin McMonigle <-- Allpet Roaches

Eurycotis decipiens will be my next species I think

Edit: I like that guy's videos, thanks for the name!

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## Sublime

Wow, that's a lot of dough to drop on roaches haha.  Yeah I heard that they take 3-4 years to reach sexual maturity and the females only produce 20-25 nymphs during fall.  Good to know the sources that are selling them.

No problem for the youtube channel.

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## MonsterPyxie

Jeff,

That puts it in perspective for me much better. I completely agree....... but... 




> ... it becomes more of a massive orgy rather than living in boring normal roach land...



let's keep it PG13 in here huh bud?  :Big Grin: 


I also looked into the M. Rhinoseros, and cheapest I found was like $120 each, and they only had two sub adults for sale. I was tempted, but when I told my wife she gave me that look that said if I went through with it, I would be castrated in my sleep, while saying "thats.... interesting..."

btw, that reminds me. Ever think about offering Eucalyptus to dubia?

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## Jeff

Lol! = )

I actually wouldn't feed any species of Eucalyptus to any species of roach (even Macropanesthia rhinoceros) - unless you could get it imported or know the source that has imported it from Australia. Every (well, darn near every) species of Eucalyptus that grows in the US as a landscape plant is absolutely toxic to roaches. There might be a a few species that could be safe but I don't trust myself in differentiating them. The garden varieties that are highly aromatic and most common in the states are a huge no-no though.

Oak leaves are the way to go; and I know of several keepers in the states who have had success rearing nymphs and adults of M. rhinoceros using no Eucalyptus at all in the diet. I'd definitely avoid it for B. dubia unless you are 110% certain of the source; which would really just be expensive potential risk in my opinion when most backyards have a variety of nice decayging hardwood and hardwood leaves that most every roach species adores = )

Try Oak, walnut, or maple leaves instead; not worth the risk. A lot of keepers have noted better success rates when not feeding Eucalyptus - and the kind that are toxic can take several days to kill a roach.

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## MonsterPyxie

good info to have. 

All the leaves are dropping here already so ive been thinking of gathering up some leaves, baking them, and serving them to the roaches just for something else for them the munch on.

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## Frost

I was browsing the net looking for information on the subject of Dubia color morphs. This was the most recent forum that I could find. I had similar color patterns a few years ago when I was raising Dubia for a hedgehog. I separated the color morphs into different classifications by their specific mutations, and began a selective breeding program. I was able to isolate the specific orange "face", yellow striped body, and clear wings (females only) in my breeders. I raise them in separate containers to only allow the females to breed with specific males. The issue with the males is that the color variation doesn't initially occur on the wings, it takes place on the body. So if you were to lift the wings you would be able to see that the stripes are genetic, the hypo is genetic, and the coloration of the underside is also genetic. Is there anyone else that has had any success with this kind of breeding program? I am trying to establish an acceptable "cull" Percentage to be able to isolate this as a consistent morph.


 





These are examples of an isolated female with the light body and the "face", Isolated female with the orange head, and pictures of a male that exhibits the yellow body trait and clear wing trait. All of my 37 females exhibit the same striped body trait, my 6 breeding males exhibit the striped body trait, but only 2 males and 6 females have the orange head trait, all of which came from the same mother/father, so direct cross breeding will be impossible due to inbreeding depression. The question is, "Is anyone interested in this color morph?". I will post pictures of my breeders if anyone is interested in seeing how they are progressing.

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