# Frogs & Toads > Frogs >  Housing other frogs with a leopard frog

## Mr Leopard

Hi,

I currently have a leopard frog in a 20 gallon long terrarium and I'd like to get a second frog. I'd like to know if there's a good rule of thumb to keep in mind, size-wise, to avoid one frog eating the other.

I might like the second frog to be of another species, but I just read in a different thread that their skin can be toxic to other frog species. It's the first time I've ever heard / read that and I was wondering if there is any truth to this. It was stated as a general fact if I remember correctly (something like frog skins can be toxic to other frog species), which seems wrong to me since frogs commonly eat other species of frogs.

I might like to get a wood frog because in the hope that it will turn out to be a female because they are so beautiful during the reproduction periode, but would that end up being too small to house with a leopard frog (especially if it turns out to be a male wood frog?).

Any advice would be appreciated

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## Xavier

No, but if we can't stop you, make the tank larger and taller, and add something big enough not to be eaten, and highly aboreal. Again, I would say no, but if you are dead-centered, get a green or gray tree frog. (P.S. STILL JUST DON'T! IT'S MUCH EASIER :Smile:  :Wink: )

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## AAron

Frogs and toads have toxins in their skin that is harmful to each other. The secretions of a toad will kill a dog very fast if untreated. Leopard Frogs don't have very many species that can attain a size that they will not eat or be eaten by the other frog. Wood Frogs will not get eaten or eat leopards if they are both adults. The problem is that wood frogs are more like an American toad. They don't live by the water like other frogs do. I've found some in the woods decently far from a pond. And the size of your tank is a bit small to keep both of them. 2 leopards will do good in a minimum 29-30 Gallon long. A wood frog doesn't need as much space since it's more terrestrial then aquatic but, you would need a 40-55 or more to do this. It looks more natural and decreases territorial standoffs. I have a 75 Gallon Vivarium with American Toads (a sexed pair) and Northern Leopard Frogs (sexed also), this is the minimum for 4 of them even with lots of hides and plants. I don't discourage you but I would say to see if your frog is happy. Why I got sexed pairs is because it to me feels more natural and the 2 species are happy. With a 20 gallon your one frog is probably happy, they aren't usually social with each other. So they don't need a friend. But a mate imo is something that everything and everyone wants so if you get a bigger tank, you'll find that would be all you'd need. 
You can checkout my Viv I have info posted on there about stuff that May interest you

http://www.frogforum.net/showthread.php?t=34251

Don't try this unless you have years of experience and knowledge about both species. 

Don't add a tree frog because the leopard frog will eat it. Mine can jump higher than 3 feet that I know of. 

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Cliygh and Mia 2, deranged chipmunk, LilyPad

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## Mr Leopard

I'm not necessarily dead set on housing them together (the alternative  will need carfeful consideration), but none of the care sheets I've read  make any fuss about them being kept with other frogs (at least not with  other leopard frogs). The recommendation is always 10 gallons per frog  (granted, that's a minimum....and, granted, a few of those care sheets  were dead wrong with regards to the frog's biology). I agree that the  bigger the terrarium, the better, though. That's generally the case.

As  for the toxicity of the skin, does anyone have a scientific source that  backs the general claim that frogs have toxins that are harmful to each  other? I may be new to keeping frogs in captivity, but (even though I  wouldn't call myself an expert on frogs) I do know a bit about the life  in the wild (a very different ball game) of several species. Some do  have toxins that are harmful to other frogs, but if all (or the greater  majority of them) did, cannibalism and the eating of other frogs species  wouldn't be so widespread. It sounds to me like it could be the result  of an agglomeration of other facts, something like: toads have toxins +  some frogs have toxins + the frog mucus often contains chemicals like  antibacterials, etc., all being turned into the general statement that  all frogs have harmful toxins in their skins.

(Makes me feel like bullfrogs and leopard frogs could overdose on frogs...)

I  could be wrong, though, and if so I'd love more details. A scientific  source (or something close to that) would be awesome if anyone can  direct me toward one.

If I do decide to house them together,  would the frogs need to be very similar in size or does the small one  just need to be bigger than the other one's head? (I'm assuming the  closer the size, the better, but what's the  "smaller-than-this-you-risk-tragedy" point?...the one to stay far away  from) Also, what's the quarantine time. Is it the same as with snakes  (2-3 months)? How hard is it to make sure that they both get their fill  at feeding time (do you need to place them in separate containers while  they eat?)?

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## Eli

Each species has very different behavior. A leopard frog would bully smaller frogs like wood frogs and be bullied by larger frogs like bullfrogs and green frogs. It doesn't matter if you feed them in separate containers, they will still cause stress for each other. It isn't really the fact that the frogs can eat each other as the fact that the frogs think they can. If you must get another frog, I would strongly advise on getting another leopard frog and upgrading the tank size. The new frog should be quarantined for at least a month and a fecal test should be performed. Furthermore, the frogs should not have a size different more than a quarter of their nose to vent length. 

I can guarantee you that even in tanks run by the most experienced people, mixed species tanks will not yield the same long lifespan as same species tanks would

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## AAron

A minimum tank for a leopard frog is 20 gallons, that's why I said a 29 or 30. They do not make 30 gallons as much as 29, idk why. Why would you want to cramp them together anyway? If one frog has something wrong with it, you risk more with a smaller tank. And imo it reduces the lifespan or the frog or frogs. You haven't seen care sheets tell you to mix frogs with Leopards either. Green Frogs will eat Leos and so will Bullfrogs. They will eat most native tree frogs as well. I think the size rule goes with the species and with adulthood for Amphibs. An adult of either wood or Leo would not consume another adult of the other species. If you want real proof, my only example would be to frighten a toad until white foam comes out of it and put it with the leopard frog. If it dies then there is proof. I know a lot about the wild also as my Vivarium is one of the most natural you will find. There are insects in there that came from the leaf litter from the woods. It's not as different as you think. Animals need there space and need to be provided with what niches they need. From what I believe, if the frog doesn't eat the other one quickly, and the secretions come out as a defense then the frog will die. A pickerel frog is very poisonous. Live read on care sheets not to house them with anything because of how they pollute the water in the tank. I think if you have the feces examined and get it checked out by a local exotic vet, it should be ok to put in if you get all the go aheads. For feeding you must make sure each animal eats. I used to put in 8 crickets, 4 for one frog and 4 for the other. You may have to put them in different containers. Hope this helps






> Each species has very different behavior. A leopard frog would bully smaller frogs like wood frogs and be bullied by larger frogs like bullfrogs and green frogs. It doesn't matter if you feed them in separate containers, they will still cause stress for each other. It isn't really the fact that the frogs can eat each other as the fact that the frogs think they can. If you must get another frog, I would strongly advise on getting another leopard frog and upgrading the tank size. The new frog should be quarantined for at least a month and a fecal test should be performed. Furthermore, the frogs should not have a size different more than a quarter of their nose to vent length. 
> 
> I can guarantee you that even in tanks run by the most experienced people, mixed species tanks will not yield the same long lifespan as same species tanks would


We have a difference of opinion on that one. If the person cannot provide care and have an environment for both species your correct. However that's not everyone. I certainly make sure my animals are taken care of. I have a thread going from April showing the progress. I'm willing to go all out for my frogs and toads. So if they die it will be in a long time. They are healthy. What if my animals would live longer than yours would? That would be pretty interesting 


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## Mr Leopard

Thanks for making things clearer in my mind with regards to whether or not the second frog could be of a different species if it's going to be in the same terrarium (no, for now at least).

Space is one of the main reasons I said captivity and life in the wild were different ball games (others include things like variation gradients in the environment). You can find several species of frogs even within two feet of one another, but they're not stuck together forever. The same goes for multiple frogs of the same species.

I'm guessing success with multiple species tanks depends on the species, the owner's care, the set up and the individual (leopards are notoriously skittish, but mine seems to have gotten used to me enough not to care much about hiding from me no matter what I do... unless I really [accidentally] scare the **** out of it). I'm actually scared this could change with the introduction of a new frog.

Just to clarify, I do not dispute the idea that toads have toxins, just the idea that all frogs do (or enough of them to make a generalization).

Do you guys have any suggestions regarding water management? What's the fastest way / set up you've found for the water changes. I have enough other animals to take care of that streamlining the water changes for my frog(s) would make a difference in deciding whether or not to house the frogs together. The same goes with the rest of terrarium care, if you have any tips.

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## AAron

I'll be honest, my frog has been skittish around me except when he is hungry. He has gotten better though. If you move slowly around them it helps. It takes getting used to for the frog and the owner. If you stress it less which is hard with these frogs, I believe it will trust you or at least not view you as a threat. My leopard frog like being on land. I see him at night on land and when it's warmer in the day, in the water. If you can get a small plastic container or something and cut it to fit your tank that would save some hassle of changing the whole tank. You could do what I did and make 60/40 land to water ratio when I had it in my 30 gallon. I really feel that the way the animals I have inhabit the enclosure makes it work. The frog has the water and the toads burrow for safety. They have similarities but with humidity, temp, & lighting all basically the same, it's already in a positive direction. I've had my one toad and leopard frog together since January. With the way I designed this enclosure it can house both species. It's not a beginner tank so to speak because it has native plants and insects that are breeding in the tank along with frogs and toads.  I waited 2 years before I attempted this. I got help with the idea from various sources and I knew the cost financially but that didn't stop me because I wanted to give them the closest simulation of what their life would be like but without predators and lack of prey. To answer your questions, it depends on the person, you can try a half land setup to lose some water, if you are still thinking of doing it still with another frog, go for it but make sure you don't favor one frog in research and designing the tank. If you are planning on making a project such as a bigger one, I hope my thread is a help to you. 


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## Platinumtreasure

I've been contemplating whether I should keep all the frogs I raised from tadpoles. They have all been froglets for about 2 to 3 weeks. There appears to be 2 green tree froglets, 2 grey tree froglets and 1 leopard froglet. As of right now the 2 green froglets seem to band together in close proximity. And the 2 grey tree froglets and the leopard frog band together more closely. Literally cuddled like puppies do when at rest. 




> Frogs and toads have toxins in their skin that is harmful to each other. The secretions of a toad will kill a dog very fast if untreated. Leopard Frogs don't have very many species that can attain a size that they will not eat or be eaten by the other frog. Wood Frogs will not get eaten or eat leopards if they are both adults. The problem is that wood frogs are more like an American toad. They don't live by the water like other frogs do. I've found some in the woods decently far from a pond. And the size of your tank is a bit small to keep both of them. 2 leopards will do good in a minimum 29-30 Gallon long. A wood frog doesn't need as much space since it's more terrestrial then aquatic but, you would need a 40-55 or more to do this. It looks more natural and decreases territorial standoffs. I have a 75 Gallon Vivarium with American Toads (a sexed pair) and Northern Leopard Frogs (sexed also), this is the minimum for 4 of them even with lots of hides and plants. I don't discourage you but I would say to see if your frog is happy. Why I got sexed pairs is because it to me feels more natural and the 2 species are happy. With a 20 gallon your one frog is probably happy, they aren't usually social with each other. So they don't need a friend. But a mate imo is something that everything and everyone wants so if you get a bigger tank, you'll find that would be all you'd need. 
> You can checkout my Viv I have info posted on there about stuff that May interest you
> 
> http://www.frogforum.net/showthread.php?t=34251
> 
> Don't try this unless you have years of experience and knowledge about both species. 
> 
> Don't add a tree frog because the leopard frog will eat it. Mine can jump higher than 3 feet that I know of. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## AAron

> I've been contemplating whether I should keep all the frogs I raised from tadpoles. They have all been froglets for about 2 to 3 weeks. There appears to be 2 green tree froglets, 2 grey tree froglets and 1 leopard froglet. As of right now the 2 green froglets seem to band together in close proximity. And the 2 grey tree froglets and the leopard frog band together more closely. Literally cuddled like puppies do when at rest.


The Leopard Frog will eat the other frogs. In about a year when it's large it will have eaten or will attempt to eat the frogs. I've done a lot of research since 2015 and I can say it's too dangerous to use a leopard frog with a tree frog because the leopard frog is territorial and not good to house with smaller tank mates. They can work with toads in large setups but it's very dangerous to house them with tree frogs. They can jump higher then the height of your enclosure as they are the farthest jumper I've read so they will literally pick off the tree frogs from wherever they are. I've had to release toads because they tried to hunt my gray tree frogs. I would even encourage you to just have 2 setups for both tree frog species. It makes it more of a competition if you have multiple species competing for the same space. My all terrestrial setup the leopard frogs and toads wasn't the best idea because they competed for space but my other setup works because I spent years after the Leopard Frog passed to find that two species inhabiting different parts of the enclosure is the best way with keeping a mixed species setup but again it doesn't just work putting even these toads and tree frogs together. There are a lot of variables that need time to be planned out and finances that need to be secured in order to provide the exact care for both so one tank mate isn't getting seconds they should get the same amount and quality of care. If you can't love both species and be even then it isn't going to work no matter what the facts say or other experts say because the only way a mixed species setup works is when you are making a setup where both species are the primary animal. You didn't suggest anything for me to say this but other people may see this and think I support keeping mixed species and when I still do have a mixed species tank I know after years of experience it's not something that is for everyone it's a very demanding type of responsibility. I hope you keep the frog or frogs you really want and if it's all 3 then that's awesome they are all great! 

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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## Platinumtreasure

Thanks for your insight! The only reason I haven't released them it's because they're so small. My granddaughter has gotten really attached to them but I've explained to her we want them to be able to live free. So right now I think I'm just trying to get them to a larger size before releasing them into the wild to give them a Fighting Chance for survival. I have a 55 gallon tank and my ultimate would be to get a captive-bred pixie frog or cane toad.





> The Leopard Frog will eat the other frogs. In about a year when it's large it will have eaten or will attempt to eat the frogs. I've done a lot of research since 2015 and I can say it's too dangerous to use a leopard frog with a tree frog because the leopard frog is territorial and not good to house with smaller tank mates. They can work with toads in large setups but it's very dangerous to house them with tree frogs. They can jump higher then the height of your enclosure as they are the farthest jumper I've read so they will literally pick off the tree frogs from wherever they are. I've had to release toads because they tried to hunt my gray tree frogs. I would even encourage you to just have 2 setups for both tree frog species. It makes it more of a competition if you have multiple species competing for the same space. My all terrestrial setup the leopard frogs and toads wasn't the best idea because they competed for space but my other setup works because I spent years after the Leopard Frog passed to find that two species inhabiting different parts of the enclosure is the best way with keeping a mixed species setup but again it doesn't just work putting even these toads and tree frogs together. There are a lot of variables that need time to be planned out and finances that need to be secured in order to provide the exact care for both so one tank mate isn't getting seconds they should get the same amount and quality of care. If you can't love both species and be even then it isn't going to work no matter what the facts say or other experts say because the only way a mixed species setup works is when you are making a setup where both species are the primary animal. You didn't suggest anything for me to say this but other people may see this and think I support keeping mixed species and when I still do have a mixed species tank I know after years of experience it's not something that is for everyone it's a very demanding type of responsibility. I hope you keep the frog or frogs you really want and if it's all 3 then that's awesome they are all great! 
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk

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