# Frogs & Toads > Aquatic Clawed Frogs >  Clawed Frog Bloated

## rob2000

HI, 
I have an african clawed frog for about 3 years now and recently he seems very bloated. Not to extreme bloating stage but about 1/2 way. I havent noticed additional bloating over last few days but no decrease either. 
I change water every week since only 1gal with no filtration which has been no issue until now. 
He eats regularly and has had no appetite loss since bloating began. 
I add 1/2 tsp of salt to the 1gal of water weekly. 
Temperature is usually between 68 degrees F and 72 degrees F. 
No other animal/fish etc is in the tank with him. 

I read online that MarOxy is a good medication to use for this but I am concerned. Anyone have any experience with MarOxy with clawed frog and any sucess with this issue?

Any ideas would be great. Until then I am going to do water changes every 3 days instead to see if that helps.

Thanks!

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## Felis

Hi,

an ACF in 1 gal of water?! That´s way too small, even for an ADF! It´s simply impossible to provide good environmental conditions in that little volume. Toxic nitrogen compounds like ammonia and nitrite build up rapidly (within a few hours), especially when the frog grows. Frogs don´t like salt, it shouldn´t be added on a regular basis. Please read here FrogsArtNeale and fix the environment ASAP, otherwise this frog is doomed. No medication or MarOxy or whatever will safe it unless you change your keeping conditions drastically.
Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, I surely don´t want to insult you- but it´s necessary to clearly state that deathtraps like one gallon "tanks" are absolutely inappropriate for animal keeping. The fact that this poor frog was able to survive in there for three years only shows how tough they are; it´s not to be misunderstood as a proof that everything is fine.

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## Michael

> *I change water every week since only 1gal with no filtration which has been no issue until now.*


I put the above statement in a large, bold, red font because this is exactly why your frog is suffering/dying.

Put away your epsom salt, your MarOxy, and whatever various potions your local Petsmart/Petco sell that would have you believe it solve this serious problem and please take that money saved and do the following:

1. Purchase a 10 gallon aquarium from Walmart or PetCo, which are often sold at $1/gallon._ est. price $13
_2. Purchase a filter capable of double capacity of said 10 gallons, a Whisper 20i would work. _est. price $15
_3. Purchase a good water conditioner such as Prime or Stress Coat and perform weekly 50% water changes on the 10 gallon aquarium._ est. price $8-12_ for the water conditioner.

For $40 dollars you can provide your frog the adequate, though minimal housing it needs to live. If the frog is only slightly bloated, assuming it is soft bloat when you place the frog in proper conditions it should rebound and begin to heal. These are VERY hardy amphibians but these conditions will cause a premature death. Do these things before his condition worsens and he is beyond recovery.

Sorry to be blunt but I am being 100% honest with you. Medications will not solve this, this frog needs to be placed in better conditions and what I've described are the very minimum conditions these frogs need to live. If you can afford a larger than 10 gallon tank, perhaps a 20 gallon long tank, and a stronger filter perhaps a Whisper 40i or equivalent then please, provide larger housing for this frog. The more the better.

If $40 is too steep I strongly urge you to rehome the frog, it will not survive much longer in the conditions you are keeping it.

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## Necromencer

> I put the above statement in a large, bold, red font because this is exactly why your frog is suffering/dying.
> 
> Put away your epsom salt, your MarOxy, and whatever various potions your local Petsmart/Petco sell that would have you believe it solve this serious problem and please take that money saved and do the following:
> 
> 1. Purchase a 10 gallon aquarium from Walmart or PetCo, which are often sold at $1/gallon._ est. price $13
> _2. Purchase a filter capable of double capacity of said 10 gallons, a Whisper 20i would work. _est. price $15
> _3. Purchase a good water conditioner such as Prime or Stress Coat and perform weekly 50% water changes on the 10 gallon aquarium._ est. price $8-12_ for the water conditioner.
> 
> For $40 dollars you can provide your frog the adequate, though minimal housing it needs to live. If the frog is only slightly bloated, assuming it is soft bloat when you place the frog in proper conditions it should rebound and begin to heal. These are VERY hardy amphibians but these conditions will cause a premature death. Do these things before his condition worsens and he is beyond recovery.
> ...



1) IF this is the case, PLEASE follow this guy's intructions

2) IF you mean that you change 1G of water/week then the problem isn't as drastic, but still very serious.


EDIT: Nevermind, I just read that you put 1/2 spoon of salt into the ONE GALLON OF WATER. 


I feel so sorry for this frog, how it lived three years perplexes me. It looks like you've done some very basic research, how could you exclude something so so basic when it comes to frog-keeping?  I can't see any human being thinking this would be okay for a frog, seriously, I bet the frog can hardly move in a 4L environment...

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## rob2000

My reply:

First of all, I do not appreciate any of you speaking to me in the way you are speaking to me. I myself am an animal lover and would never do anything intentionally to hurt an animal. I have done research online and there are many varying opininons on frogs, how they should be kept and their reactions to salt. I wanted to seek some help from some others that might have different experiences. Your advice, although I see clearly that I have been doing something wrong, is rude and obnoxious. To be honest,your comments will only hurt other frogs in the future because people will be nervous to seek help and advice from people like you who may have good insight but are completely rude about giving an answer. It would have been enough for you to give me the feedback without the attitude.  

I will take your comments into consideration obviously and make the environment as comfortable as I can for him but I do not appreciate the treatment I have been getting on this site and will take action to write to the heads of the site to advise on how rude you are. 

Thank you









> I put the above statement in a large, bold, red font because this is exactly why your frog is suffering/dying.
> 
> Put away your epsom salt, your MarOxy, and whatever various potions your local Petsmart/Petco sell that would have you believe it solve this serious problem and please take that money saved and do the following:
> 
> 1. Purchase a 10 gallon aquarium from Walmart or PetCo, which are often sold at $1/gallon._ est. price $13
> _2. Purchase a filter capable of double capacity of said 10 gallons, a Whisper 20i would work. _est. price $15
> _3. Purchase a good water conditioner such as Prime or Stress Coat and perform weekly 50% water changes on the 10 gallon aquarium._ est. price $8-12_ for the water conditioner.
> 
> For $40 dollars you can provide your frog the adequate, though minimal housing it needs to live. If the frog is only slightly bloated, assuming it is soft bloat when you place the frog in proper conditions it should rebound and begin to heal. These are VERY hardy amphibians but these conditions will cause a premature death. Do these things before his condition worsens and he is beyond recovery.
> ...

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## Felis

It´s sad that you see it like this. Everyone said as politely as possible what´s wrong with your frog and it won´t help if you just feel offended and retreat from the forum. I hope you really considerate to change your setup. I don´t know where you´ve got your information on frog keeping from, but it´s obviously not a reasonable source. As you already are pouting, I think it´s ok to say it clearly: you didn´t do your homework (which means you weren´t able to investigate the minimum requirements of those easy-to-keep-frogs) and you did everything wrong, which is why your pet is suffering now. Hopefully, you will change this situation (which is still possible), with or without further help of people who know how to keep these animals properly.

P.S.: you  have quite a weird way to show your "love"; anyhow, frogs don´t care about being loved, they just need their basic needs to be met.

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## Necromencer

'I change water every week since only 1gal with no filtration which has been no issue until now.'


This is the problem I have with your comment. let's ignore everything else for a moment. You're playing the victim here, when that poor frog has lived three years in pauper conditions, because of your ignorance and misguidance. I'm quoting you, and I want to point out that you've mentioned that you change the water every week, but you have no filter. This seems to me that you've done your basic homework and research, but yet you've chose to go against what was recommended (every site I've seen says 10g/frog), and you've opted to go for whatever was most convenient for you, regardless of any potential ramifications. This is even more so, when you say: 'I've had no issue up to now'. That says to me that you were aware of the issues, because you knew that having no filtration or a small amount of water would be bad, but you chose not to give it a decent quality of life. That's how I read it. 


Out response was quite tame (except the guy whom you quoted, who has a famous reputation for being bold and having an attitude), but this forum is dedicated to frogs, and to see this cruelty and torture only brings sadness and in some cases anger, because it was caused by a human, who could have dealt with the situation a lot better. 


I don't know about you, but after three years I'm pretty sure I would know how to treat a frog, either by research or common sense (trial and error). After three years, I can imagine that you would see that the frog is too big to move, 1G must be visually small enough for you to understand this. 

In addition, what responses would you expect if you found out that an adult woman was kept in a small cage for three years? I'm sure the responses of the person who put her there wouldn't be very good ones. We're not being personal at you, per se, but rather at your poor animal keeping skills and common sense. 

Please, by all means, write to the head of the website, but I'm sure he'll understand, where we are coming from. 


We would have given you a lot better response if you hadn't of been torturing your pet, excuse the boldness.

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## Michael

I humbly apologize for not simply validating your inadequate care for your animals.

Your frog's declining health is due to the poor conditions it is living in. I'm not sure how I am supposed to sugar coat this for you to make the statement more palatable but that is the bottom line here.

I don't know what else to tell you, if you simply wanted validation and want us to agree with adding chemicals to the water to fix an issue caused by the fact the frog is simply kept in an unfiltered and woefully tiny enclosure I guess you are out of luck friend.

Nothing I said to you was rude in any way. Sounds to me like you came here to get the answer you wanted to hear, not the answer you needed to hear. I never once insulted you, by all means please show me where I personally attacked you in this thread?

I provided you the information you need to save the life of your frog, no more no less.

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## Carlos

> HI, 
> I have an african clawed frog for about 3 years now and recently he seems very bloated. Not to extreme bloating stage but about 1/2 way. I havent noticed additional bloating over last few days but no decrease either. 
> I change water every week since only 1gal with no filtration which has been no issue until now. 
> He eats regularly and has had no appetite loss since bloating began. 
> I add 1/2 tsp of salt to the 1gal of water weekly. 
> Temperature is usually between 68 degrees F and 72 degrees F. 
> No other animal/fish etc is in the tank with him. 
> 
> I read online that MarOxy is a good medication to use for this but I am concerned. Anyone have any experience with MarOxy with clawed frog and any sucess with this issue?
> ...


Hello Rob and welcome to FF  :Smile:  !  Could you please answer the following questions and provide pics of both frog and enclosure, thank you!   

1. Size of tank

5. Water - source and chemicals (dechlorinator, conditioners, medications) added. 

6. Materials used for substrate

7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants_- How were things prepared prior to being put into tank.

8. Main food source

10. Lighting

11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the water

12. When is the last time he/she ate

13. Have you found poop lately

14. A pic would be helpful including frog and tank (any including cell phone pic is fine)

15. How old is the frog

18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats

20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area

21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)_

MarOxy by Mardel is an anti-fungal fish medication with some effect against bacteria.  Although I'm not aware of successful anti-bloating treatments with MarOxy; maybe you can share link with info so we are all clear about it. 

Do you have an aquarium test kit available?  If not, can you take a clean water sample to your local Pet Shop and request a complimentary analysis of Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates.  Please take sample before you do a water change; otherwise we are just testing your source water.  After you have results then please share here.  

The frog is suffering edema because it's Lymph Hearts are failing due to a possible bacterial attack.  Treating against the bacteria without correcting the cause that compromised the frog's immunity and gave rise to bacteria bloom inside frog is just a temporary fix.  The medicine chemical bath could actually make things worse in the presence of Ammonia and other toxic chemicals. Hope to hear from you soon and good luck  :Frog Smile:  !

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## Michael

> MarOxy by Mardel is an anti-fungal fish medication with some effect against bacteria.  Although I'm not aware of successful anti-bloating treatments with MarOxy; maybe you can share link with info so we are all clear about it.




The medication (which in this case will not even treat bloat as you've mentioned) is moot. The problem here is environmental, 1 gallon is not enough water to support these frogs. Not enough room for the frog to move around, and more than likely becomes foul/toxic very quickly. It's 10% of the water volume recommended to keep these frogs at a minimum.




> Do you have an aquarium test kit available?  If not, can you take a clean water sample to your local Pet Shop and request a complimentary





> analysis of Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates.  Please take sample before you do a water change; otherwise we are just testing your source water.  After you have results then please share here.




It's 1 gallon of water, there's nothing to really test here. Even in a laboratory (in which these frogs are not meant to live out their entire natural lives) these conditions are unacceptable. There simply isn't enough water to support this animal and now it is dying.




> The frog is suffering edema because it's Lymph Hearts are failing due to a possible bacterial attack.  Treating against the bacteria without correcting the cause that compromised the frog's immunity and gave rise to bacteria bloom inside frog is just a temporary fix.  The medicine chemical bath could actually make things worse in the presence of Ammonia and other toxic chemicals. Hope to hear from you soon and good luck  !


You're 100% correct. This is a dying/suffering animal that needs to be cared for properly and must have a larger volume of water to live in to recover. Dumping chemicals on this frog will simply exasperated the situation.

To OP: Please provide a better and more suitable environment for your frog so he can recover from this. Even if you hate me, think I'm a mean jerk and would like the earth swallow me up, whatever. I urge you to please follow the given advice from myself and others on this forum and please provide an adequate aquarium for this animal so it does not need to suffer any longer than it has.

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

People, Take a deep breath. 

We need to back off a little bit here. 
And let cooler heads prevail. 
Rob came here for help not beratement*.

We all agree that the frog is ill and needs help. 

And I will agree that larger accommodations are in order. 

And adding any drugs or chemicals is ill advised especially since dosing would be very difficult giving the 
small volume of water. What kind of salt are you using , If it is iodized table salt. Stop I have always heard that is really bad to use iodized salt in aquariums.


I totally agree with Carlos,

I would first recomend that he take a sample of the water to a local fish store and have it tested by some one 
that has done tests many times. (Rob if you see them use test strips and not small bottles of reagent to do the testing go to another store.) 
And see if the problem is being caused by a water quality issue. 

Until you get that test I would cut back on feeding by 1/2 until this issue is resolved. 
Is the frog eating ok.
And please answer Carlos questions that will help us understand what is going on.


*

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## rob2000

HI Louis and Carlos, 
I thank you very much for trying to find out more information and for trying to save me from the patronizing and belittling comments from other users. It is not what is being said but the way that it is being said. I just want to find a resolution to the problem and will do anything I need to in order to help. I also think that there is a misunderstanding of exactly how big this frog is. He is only about 1"-1.5" long and has plenty of space to move around or hide etc.

You commented on having the water tested. I have an ammonia test kit for my fish tanks that I could use to check water but since I just changed it yesterday I am not sure how helpful it would be. What are your thoughts?

That being said. I will answer your questions from above:

1. Size of tank
The tank is 2Gal but since I read that frogs like shallow water, I only keep 1G in it. There are two plants in the tank similar to what you would put in a betta tank that the frog enjoys sitting under or on in some cases. There is also a little cave in the back of the tank with shelter so the frog can hide if he would like to.

5. Water - source and chemicals (dechlorinator, conditioners, medications) added. 
The water is tap water and I do not add any chemicals for dechlorination. I do let the water sit for at least 24 hrs for temperature and dechlorination to occur. I read somewhere a long time ago that adding 1/2 tsp of salt to water is helpful to keep frog healthy although some here disagree.

6. Materials used for substrate
I use a small rock gravel for substrate. I would say that it is about basic fish tank size.

7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants_- How were things prepared prior to being put into tank.
_See above point #1. Items were rinsed in hot water prior to putting into tank. These have been in tank for at least a year. No live plants are used.

8. Main food source
His main food source was fish flakes with some freeze dried brine shrimp but I recently updated to aquatic frog food with some freeze dried brine shrimp to help nutrition.

10. Lighting
Lighting is basically room lighting. I didnt want the tank to be too bright. Natural light from the outdoors is standard. I have a towel over the back of the tank for shelter and shade when needed. 

11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the water
No mechanical items are used to heat water. The room temperature is always between 68-72 for the most part.

12. When is the last time he/she ate
He eats one time per day in low doses. 

13. Have you found poop lately
I cleaned the tank yesterday to keep water cleaner then the 1ce per week and yes I believe there was poop in there.

14. A pic would be helpful including frog and tank (any including cell phone pic is fine)
2 pictures below. One of him in front on tank (begging for food) and the second is more close up.
Attachment 53357
Attachment 53358 
15. How old is the frog
Frog is about 3 years old. 

18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
Once per day and no additional treats.

20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
Low traffic. It is in a bed room on top of a dresser.

21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)
Water changes of entire gallon weekly until this week when I am changing every 3 days or so. All water gets changed out.

I hope this helps. I also read that frogs dont like the water deep because they want to get to the surface for air so I am confused on how you would use a 20gal tank which would make the tank over 1ft deep for a frog that is so small. 

Thanks for your help.

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## Lynn

Sigh........So this thread is now, sadly, under very watchful eyes.
Replies- here- have been reported .

And such *good* information here, too! 

New members should be readily distinguishable from others. Because they are new. We like new!
We need to remember how , why , and when we posted  our 1st questions.
Rob has hit the "nail on the head "It is not what is being said but the way that it is being said"
--
All FF members need  to use, at all times,* friendly* and sportively- written advice to all members .
I understand, how easy it is to get upset when we see another frog's care could possibly be causing it's problems or illness.
--
I see replies here have a 'mounted guard' on behalf of this frog.  It is easy to get upset when all we are are trying to do is take care of the frog. Especially when they are struggling.  Sometimes, good intentions are not clearly understood. This is a learning environment .........in many respects. We need to be objective when, those of us,* ( including myself  )* are given advice as to how to correct a possible mistake or make needed adjustments in day to day care. We need to have patience and understanding that a reply is always intended to HELP. 

We ALL need to set watch for those who seek help , be sharp but NOT bite back, and by all means keep our cool.

Carlos and Louis ,
Thank you for your calming replies.

Let's get this back on track  :Smile: 
Lynn

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Gnag the nameless, Heatheranne

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## rob2000

Thank you Lynn.  :Smile:

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## Carlos

> ...He is only about 1"-1.5" long and has plenty of space to move around or hide etc.
> Could you please tell me if the eyes are on top of head or on sides.  Also, are front hands webbed or not?
> 
> You commented on having the water tested. I have an ammonia test kit for my fish tanks that I could use to check water but since I just changed it yesterday I am not sure how helpful it would be. What are your thoughts?
> Go ahead and do test tomorrow prior to water change.  Until we solve this, might want to do 50% water change daily (with dechlorinator - see below). Remember to replace salt removed by volume.
> 
> 1. Size of tank
> The tank is 2Gal but since I read that frogs like shallow water, I only keep 1G in it. There are two plants in the tank similar to what you would put in a betta tank that the frog enjoys sitting under or on in some cases. There is also a little cave in the back of the tank with shelter so the frog can hide if he would like to.
> Don't wash plants or gravel in tap water.  Can use tank water to rinse.
> ...


OK, my thoughts are that the salt is slow acting and will take some time to work.  Issue with medicating is that the size of tank makes it challenging.  Can you get a bottle of Melafix at your local pet or fish shop. It's a natural anti-bacterial that I read is safe for frogs (when dosed correctly).  Only thing is, can't find if there are any side effects on a bloated frog.  Keeps those pics of frog handy to compare with frog in a couple day's to check for improvement.  Good luck  :Frog Smile:  !

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## rob2000

Sorry I dont know how to do that quote response thing. I hope this will suffice. 

- ...He is only about 1"-1.5" long and has plenty of space to move around or hide etc.
- Could you please tell me if the eyes are on top of head or on sides.  Also, are front hands webbed or not?
- Eyes are mostly on top of head I would say but off to sides slightly and front hands are not webbed. 



 - You commented on having the water tested. I have an ammonia test kit for my fish tanks that I could use to check water but since I just changed it yesterday I am not sure how helpful it would be. What are your thoughts?
- Go ahead and do test tomorrow prior to water change.  Until we solve this, might want to do 50% water change daily (with dechlorinator - see below). Remember to replace salt removed by volume.
- OK will do, salt is aquarium salt and amount was applicable to fish aquarium maintenence amounts. Do you think this is ok? Below you mention that you only use salt to medicate but above it seems you are advising to replace salt.  :Smile: 


- 1. Size of tank
 - The tank is 2Gal but since I read that frogs like shallow water, I only keep 1G in it. There are two plants in the tank similar to what you would put in a betta tank that the frog enjoys sitting under or on in some cases. There is also a little cave in the back of the tank with shelter so the frog can hide if he would like to.
- Don't wash plants or gravel in tap water.  Can use tank water to rinse.
- How do I rinse out gravel if no tap water? I usually swish the water through the gravel to get it clean. 


 - The water is tap water and I do not add any chemicals for dechlorination. I do let the water sit for at least 24 hrs for temperature and dechlorination to occur. I read somewhere a long time ago that adding 1/2 tsp of salt to water is helpful to keep frog healthy although some here disagree.
 - Do get dechlorinator like Seachem Prime and start using now.  Chloramines are very stable and will not disperse by aerating or boiling water.  I don't use salt with frogs unless medicating at 1 teaspoon per 1.25 gal.  Note that it should be aquarium salt; not table salt for humans.
 - I actually keep a 29gal and a 10gal with fish and usually put the salt in the tank there as well. I can get dechlorinator. Are you advising dechlorinator and let water sit as well?


- I use a small rock gravel for substrate. I would say that it is about basic fish tank size.
- Make sure gravel can't be ingested by frog.  If it can; get a larger substrate because is can become an impaction hazard.
- I can change to either really small sand recommended by Louis or larger rocks. 


 - His main food source was fish flakes with some freeze dried brine shrimp but I recently updated to aquatic frog food with some freeze dried brine shrimp to help nutrition.
- Please take a look at this care sheet for more feeding ideas appropriate to your frog size:  Care Sheet: African Dwarf Frog.
- It seems most of the comments in that care sheet are for a dwarf frog and I actually think my frog is a clawed frog. Is that correct? It also seems that my tank size is ok for my frog then since they recommend 1gal per dwarf frog and my frog is the same size as a dwarf frog.

- No mechanical items are used to heat water. The room temperature is always between 68-72 for the most part.
 - If frog is what I think; water should not drop below 70F and better if higher.  Will worry about this once dealt with bacteria. 
- Ok, I can come back to this one. 

I cleaned the tank yesterday to keep water cleaner then the 1ce per week and yes I believe there was poop in there.
 OK, change 50% per previous comments.
- OK



 - 2 pictures below. One of him in front on tank (begging for food) and the second is more close up.
- Can't open attachments.
- mmm. I wonder why. I dont know how to add them correctly. I used "insert image" button.


 - Once per day and no additional treats.
- See previous comments.
- ok


 - Water changes of entire gallon weekly until this week when I am changing every 3 days or so. All water gets changed out.
 - Let's try 50% daily per previous comments.
- Ok, I will start this tomorrow since I dont have a good dechlorinator (one that I can read the directions on anyway) and no water aside overnight.


OK, my thoughts are that the salt is slow acting and will take some time to work. (Rob - salt is in tank all the time.) Issue with medicating is that the size of tank makes it challenging.  Will look around some more for possible anti-biotics or maybe try Melafix (have to check if safe).  Keeps those pics of frog handy to compare with frog in a couple day's to check for improvement.  Good luck  :Frog Smile:  ! (Thank you)

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## Michael

Hi Rob. Just some additional questions and advice here, I genuinely want to help you and your frog.

We need to establish what type of frog you have because these species are very different. The size and age of your frog leads me to believe it is an african dwarf frog (hymenochirus) but the physical description sounds much like the larger african clawed frog (xenopus laevis).



This is an african dwarf frog. They are around the size you describe when adults.



This is an african clawed frog (albino, one of my own actually) these guys get 3-5+ inches depending on gender. The females are larger.

Are you sure if is an african clawed frog? I ask because african clawed frogs (the big guys) are fairly salt tolerant and the smaller african dwarf frog really isn't so you have to be a lot more careful if you attempt a salt treatment.

I do believe that by treating this frog however we are still ignoring the fact it is residing in too small amount of water to survive in the long run. You really must address the size of the tank the frog is kept in for any successful treatment to have any lasting effect. 1 gallon just isn't enough, it's not enough for an african dwarf frog and it's way too little for an african clawed frog as I previously mentioned.

I strongly feel that by having a proper sized tank, filtration, using a water dechlorinator (the heavy metals and chlorine in tap is toxic to frogs) and a cycled tank will put this frog on the path to recovery faster than salt treatments or other medications sold in pet stores. If the frog continues to show signs of bloating and his conditions do not improve after the husbandry improves perhaps then will be the time to move to more aggressive treatments. I am a firm believer that chemicals should be a last resort as many times it does more harm than good. I am absolutely positive that with proper care this frogs bloat will subside.

I hope this helps.

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## rob2000

HI Michael,
Thank you for the write up and the pictures. He/she definitely looks like the one in the bottom picture. I tried again to attach my pictures.
I do have a 5gal tank that I could move to, I am just not sure how to do it with little stress and I was concerned it would be too deep and difficult for him to get to the top. What are your thoughts on that part?
I myself am hesitant to put medications in the tank because I feel that clean water etc will help which is why I am doing more water changes religiously in the meantime. I also kept him in a smaller tank because it was much easier for me to keep clean more often which I thought was a good thing.  I will definitely get a dechlorinator on my way home tomorrow.

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

I will agree it does look like a ACF.   
Moving it to the 5 g can be very easy. 

I would start using some water from one of you other tanks to get the 5 Gal 
started. It will have some of the bacteria to help get the cycle started. 
and if you can get a small sachet of gravel from the same tank you got the water from
that would be great. 
Does the 5 G have a filter?

I would also put a small fish in it like a tetra to help get it cycled.
then you can move it to your other tank. 

you would move him like you would a fish.

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## rob2000

HI there. 1/2 of 5 gal filled with fresh clean water. Will pick up dechlorinator tomorrow. Im concerned to use water from other tank since last frog in that tank died and just lost a fish recently. Other fish are healthy but I wont know if there is any bad bacteria in there. The 5 gal has a filter but it was used to house a sick fish previously and not sure how to clean it well. Stressed.. lol. Will figure it out though if it is best for Frogee for sure.

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

Best is a 10% solution of clorox and water.  and rinse out with a mixture of over dosed de-chlorinator and tap water. 
3X the normal dose for 1 gallon, 

and then rinse with plain de Chlorinated water 

let sit over night dry and see if you still smell any clorox
if there is any hard water stains a paper towel damped with white vinegar will do the trick 
and that will kill just about any bug.

----------


## reptileszz

> My reply:
> 
> First of all, I do not appreciate any of you speaking to me in the way you are speaking to me. I myself am an animal lover and would never do anything intentionally to hurt an animal. I have done research online and there are many varying opininons on frogs, how they should be kept and their reactions to salt. I wanted to seek some help from some others that might have different experiences. Your advice, although I see clearly that I have been doing something wrong, is rude and obnoxious. To be honest,your comments will only hurt other frogs in the future because people will be nervous to seek help and advice from people like you who may have good insight but are completely rude about giving an answer. It would have been enough for you to give me the feedback without the attitude.  
> 
> I will take your comments into consideration obviously and make the environment as comfortable as I can for him but I do not appreciate the treatment I have been getting on this site and will take action to write to the heads of the site to advise on how rude you are. 
> 
> Thank you


This is very sad. You are not being treated poorly. You are being given important advice. You are keeping your frog in conditions that are obviously harmful. I suggest you step back, read the advice, follow it and you will have a happy healthy frog. If not I dont think you will have this frog anymore  :Frown: 

Carole

Oops, should have read farther along. I am glad you are taking the advice. Your frog will be much healthier for it  :Smile:

----------


## Louis Charles Bruckner

> Oops, should have read farther along. I am glad you are taking the advice. Your frog will be much healthier for it


Yep a clear case of open mouth insert foot.  LOL

----------


## Jen

Let's stop worrying about talking about other members and let's focus on helping this frog. 

Welcome Rob. 

I highly recommend filling that 5 gallon up, not half way.  I had frogs in 22" of water in my tanks and they thrived.  At 3 years old, your frog should be full grown and depending on gender it should be over 3" of body length (nose to bottom, not including stretched out hind legs) if a male and over 5" if female. 

The small tank, poor diet and inadequate water volume have stunted his growth. The 5 gallon will be a much healthier environment for him.   While switching, I would not move over the gravel as he is looking rather rolly polly as it is and has problem ingested some which can be quite damaging to their insides.   Opt for a bare bottom tank or a thin layer of sand in the new tank. 

If you are going to keep not filtering, please do a 50% water change every three days. This will help him immensely  - only treat the water with a fresh water conditioner like API, do not treat the tank with salt, pH buffers, ammonia remover etc.    The fresher the water is, the more fresh water creatures appreciate it!

You already greatly improved his diet so well done there. Instead of freezedried brineshrimp try switching to the frozen brine shrimp cubes.   Just cut off a small amount from the block (keep the rest of the block frozen), thaw his portion in tank water then feed.  It is easiest to feed using a little plate on the bottom of the tank and squirting the sinking food onto it (the brine and depends on which type of pellet you use - some float, some sink).   Feeding in the same place every time teaches the frog where to go when it smells food (their vision is awful!) and it keeps the tank cleaner by not having food scattered all over the place to be missed so it rots.  Rotting food fouls the water.

----------


## Necromencer

Hey Rob, 

I know you're worried about the depth of the water, but it shouldn't really be an issue. As long as the tank isn't extremely tall (12''+) then the frog shouldn't have much of a problem. It's always best to go for a longer tank than a higher tank. 
Here is a picture of my current tank I'm using now (the big one). As you can see, it's quite deep. I have my water filled almost to the top and I've been observing my frogs for fatigue and difficulty getting air, and they have no problems what so ever. My frogs are roughly the same size as your one now, you can see one of my frogs in my profile picture. I do recommend that you get either a basking platform or floating plants. This is more so for my species of frog (Silurana Tropicalis [xenopus]), but I'm sure your frog would appreciate it too. With either a basking platform or floating plants, your frog can attach itself to it and rest there, instead of having to go up and down for water all the time. 

Hope this helps

----------


## Carlos

> HI there. 1/2 of 5 gal filled with fresh clean water. Will pick up dechlorinator tomorrow. Im concerned to use water from other tank since last frog in that tank died and just lost a fish recently. Other fish are healthy but I wont know if there is any bad bacteria in there. The 5 gal has a filter but it was used to house a sick fish previously and not sure how to clean it well. Stressed.. lol. Will figure it out though if it is best for Frogee for sure.


Hi Rob!  Have not read all new posts yet but will answer this one.  One quick option to 10% soak is to use a clean sponge or paper towel (in ventilated area, wear old clothes, rubber gloves and eye protection) soak it in plain house bleach (Clorox) and go over all surfaces of tank, filter, glass tops, etc.  Let it be for ten minutes and rinse well in tap water.  Then prepare a concentrated dechlorinator solution (about 4x strong) and go over everything with it; done.  

For plastic decor make plain bleach solution at 1 part bleach to 10 parts water and soak all plastic decor there for 24 hours and then rinse in tap water.  

Natural gravel (not painted or clear coated) can be baked in oven.  Make tray with aluminum foil and spread it on it, then cook for 1 hour at 250F, turn oven off and let it remain in overnight... done.  For colored or clear coated gravel would just throw away and replace.

For filter media; dispose of all filter pads and get new ones.  Plastic bio-balls can be handled as the plastic decor and any sintered glass media/lava rock/etc. can be baked with gravel (do not soak anything porous like gravel or media in bleach).  Good luck  :Frog Smile:  !

----------


## Carlos

> ...
> - OK will do, salt is aquarium salt and amount was applicable to fish aquarium maintenence amounts. Do you think this is ok? Below you mention that you only use salt to medicate but above it seems you are advising to replace salt. 
> 
> - Don't wash plants or gravel in tap water.  Can use tank water to rinse.
> - How do I rinse out gravel if no tap water? I usually swish the water through the gravel to get it clean. 
> 
> ...Are you advising dechlorinator and let water sit as well?
> 
> - It seems most of the comments in that care sheet are for a dwarf frog and I actually think my frog is a clawed frog. Is that correct? It also seems that my tank size is ok for my frog then since they recommend 1gal per dwarf frog and my frog is the same size as a dwarf frog.


Agree with Jen that appears you have a stunted ACF.  I only use salt to medicate frogs, did advice you to replace it as you water change for that issue.  If you have always used salt and frog still got sick; then think it will not help in this case.  Understand your decision not to medicate, that is your choice.  Recommend then follow Jen's advice and see how that goes.

Reason I stated not to wash gravel in tap water is because you do not use a filter and the small amount of good bacteria live in that gravel.  By washing it on tap you kill them and the ammonia/nitrite problem becomes permanent.  So swishing in removed tank water is similar to "vacuuming" gravel during water change in bigger tank. 

After using dechlorinator in proper dose can use water immediately if same temperature.

Understand frog is not a Dwarf Clawed Frog; reason referenced that care sheet was to point out additional feeding items  :Frog Smile:  .

----------


## rob2000

Hi All, 
Thank you for your feedback. 
I have put aside about 3/4 of the 5gal tank of water and have an additional gallon set aside seperately that i can add as well. It has been sitting since late last night. I also bought a dechlorinator called Kordon NovAqua Plus Water Conditioner to remove the cloramines. I did not clean the tank with clorox which is my only concern. The fish that was housed in that tank died over a month ago and the tank was dry. Do we think that I should start over with clorox and wait for temp to return to room temperature again or would bacteria be dead already. It was only used for 2 days and no algae grew on it etc. 

I did get some white and black sand for that tank instead of the "bite sized" gravel. 
I already had the ammonia kit so I bought the Nitrate kit (nitrite kit was not there) and I am going to test the water tonight now that it has been 2 days and see what is happening in there before dumping that water.
I have to get some new filter media before using the filter but the increased water will hopefully help. Just worried he will not like the current since he isnt used to that. 
Will keep you posted when I do the tests. He is still active and looking for food today.  :Smile:

----------


## rob2000

HI all, 
I didnt have the test kit for nitrites but I did test for ammonia, nitrates and pH.
Nitrates were 0
Ammonia was just about .25ppm (slightly green)
pH was acidic.

Seems that you were all correct and the water quality is horrible. I had no idea that such a small frog could make the water change so fast and thought that the weekly change was ok. I am going to upgrade his conditions as soon as I understand if my tank is clean enough or if I need to do a better cleaning job first. 
I used basic soap, kind of like antibacterial hand soap with very hot water to clean last night. Scrubbed soap all over and rinsed. Repeated one time.

Thoughts?

----------


## Michael

> HI all, 
> I didnt have the test kit for nitrites but I did test for ammonia, nitrates and pH.
> Nitrates were 0
> Ammonia was just about .25ppm (slightly green)
> pH was acidic.
> 
> Seems that you were all correct and the water quality is horrible. I had no idea that such a small frog could make the water change so fast and thought that the weekly change was ok. I am going to upgrade his conditions as soon as I understand if my tank is clean enough or if I need to do a better cleaning job first. 
> I used basic soap, kind of like antibacterial hand soap with very hot water to clean last night. Scrubbed soap all over and rinsed. Repeated one time.
> 
> Thoughts?


Never use soap on an aquarium the residue lingers for a very long time and is toxic to frogs and fish. The best way to clean out an aquarium for use again is bleach, rinse it out a ton (and I mean a lot), then use a dechlorinater.

Have you considered picking up a cheapo 10 gallon tank at Walmart of PetCo? I think for about 10 bucks that would give your frog enough space.

----------


## rob2000

So Frogee is in his new home. I need to figure out the best filter for the 5 gal (that was the best tank I had to upgrade to tonight so that he got out of that crappy water) such as underwater or cascading and plants. I will consider the 10gal. He seems to be ok so far. He went into his little cave rock for about 3 min and now is out in the front looking for food. I did not add salt back into the tank. Let me know if you guys feel that I should because of the bloating or if I should leave it out. 
Ill continue to feed froggee bites for now and will leave out the freeze dried blood worms until bloating subsides a bit (hopefully). 
Will keep you posted tomorow.

----------


## SwimminSteve

Hi Rob,

I'm glad to see that you are taking steps in the right direction for your frog. I would really advise buying the 10gal tank. I remember buying one for around $15 at walmart and I've seen them on craigslist for less than that even. The reason that we are pushing for a 10gal is that you will have a hard time keeping adequate water conditions in a smaller tank. The cycling process and maintenance will be easier in a 10gal than a 5.5gal. Do you have a lid on your tank? That is a must, because these frogs are surprisingly good at escaping.

As for a filter: Since you are still considering upgrading to a 10gal, I would advise that you get a filter large enough for a 10, but small enough for a 5.5. My personal favorite filter for a small tank is the Whisper i series by Tetra. Even a whisper 10i (about $10 on amazon) would be hugely beneficial to your frog's health. Once your filter is up and running you would only need to do 25% water changes each week (it's so easy). 

I prefer bare-bottom tanks, because the upkeep is much simpler. I may have missed it if you mentioned what kind of frog pellets you were feeding, but I prefer HBH frog and tadpole bites and Reptomin turtle sticks. These are a healthy staple diet for your frog. Frozen/thawed brine shrimp and earthworms would be great occasional treats. I would definitely stay away from anything with bloodworms, since these are a potential contributor to bloat. 

Once your frog's environment has improved, we would be happy to address treating the bloat. I'm optimistic that some of it will subside when his water conditions improve, but you shouldn't expect to see a 100% recovery. He will probably always have some subcutaneous fluid trapped from this, but I'm hoping that it will decrease to the point where it causes him no discomfort. 

Rob, I hope you can understand the reactions of the folks on the forum. You came here, a place where self-admitted frog nerds come together, for help. Of course everyone is quite passionate about frog care and wants to see the best possible treatment of them. As an animal-lover, I'm sure you can see why people put the animal's needs before the feelings of its owner. I can promise you that no one intended to insult you or question your dedication to your pet, they just hoped that strong words would jolt you into action  :Smile: .

----------


## rob2000

HI Swimmin Steve, 
Thanks for your advice. I think I have a whisper filter but I had it on the tank with the sick fish. Would I use bleach on this component too without the media and just get new media? Just want to make sure I dont add more bad bacteria etc to the tank by accident.

I am feeding Zoo Med Aquatic Frog and Tadpole Food (micro pellets). I am just concerned that Frogee can't find it as easily since the tank is bigger and he has to go further to the top. There is a filter hole which I covered (until I get the filter straightened out tomorrow) with paper and tape so I think it will be ok.  

I can say that so far so good... Frogee doesnt seem to mind the new tank and once I get him some more plants or little enclosures etc I think he will be even happier. I can always move that stuff to the 10gal. I will continue to monitor the water with the testers until then to make sure it isnt an issue in the meantime. 
I put a towel over the tank for now so that he has some shade instead of light and he can hide a bit more since there isnt too much in the tank right now. I did take the advise of others in the forum and I got white sand for the bottom. Will definitely leave the bloodworms out of the diet. 
Hopefully he will feel a little better soon. I definitely understand the concern of others. To be honest I think the 3rd response or so upset me the most and I felt attacked and belittled. I am over it now and am glad that I am taking steps now to make Frogee feel better. Hopefully my efforts work. I will keep you posted.

----------


## Michael

> HI Swimmin Steve, 
> Thanks for your advice. I think I have a whisper filter but I had it on the tank with the sick fish. Would I use bleach on this component too without the media and just get new media? Just want to make sure I dont add more bad bacteria etc to the tank by accident.


How did the fish die? New media would start your aquariums cycling process over again. Did the fish die from some kind of bacterial issue? Filters contain beneficial bacteria that breaks down ammonia into nitrite then nitrate which is beneficial to your aquarium (cycling is basically the nitrogen cycle of NH3 > NO2 > NO3).




> I am feeding Zoo Med Aquatic Frog and Tadpole Food (micro pellets). I am just concerned that Frogee can't find it as easily since the tank is bigger and he has to go further to the top. There is a filter hole which I covered (until I get the filter straightened out tomorrow) with paper and tape so I think it will be ok.


The Zoo Med food is perfectly fine. Whatever food is not found can be removed with a turkey baster (one never washed with soap!) or a gravel vac. I would remove food daily if any is left over. Have you considered live food such as nightcrawlers? I feed these often to my frogs, probably more so than pellets and they really enjoy it. You can buy them at a bait store or walmart so long as they are not dyed or scented or have any weird 'enhancements' to attract fish.

I have used tape to cover gaps on my tanks before and it is necessary as these guys can and will leave the tank given half a chance. Do not worry about their ability to swim/surface for air. I kept small froglets (tiny!) in a 20G high tank and they were able to dart upward for air in half a second. They are very capable swimmers don't underestimate them, lol.




> I can say that so far so good... Frogee doesnt seem to mind the new tank and once I get him some more plants or little enclosures etc I think he will be even happier. I can always move that stuff to the 10gal. I will continue to monitor the water with the testers until then to make sure it isnt an issue in the meantime.


10 gallon would be ideal.




> I put a towel over the tank for now so that he has some shade instead of light and he can hide a bit more since there isnt too much in the tank right now. I did take the advise of others in the forum and I got white sand for the bottom. Will definitely leave the bloodworms out of the diet. 
> Hopefully he will feel a little better soon. I definitely understand the concern of others. To be honest I think the 3rd response or so upset me the most and I felt attacked and belittled. I am over it now and am glad that I am taking steps now to make Frogee feel better. Hopefully my efforts work. I will keep you posted.


White sand is good, I like the CaribSea Moonlight sand personally it's very fine sand and if they digest any of it, it goes right through them. I did not mean to belittle you but the frog sounded in trouble and I was trying to put some urgency in my tone.

I think you can get this frog on the road to recovery and I hope he gets better soon!

----------


## rob2000

HI Michael, 
Thanks for your response. 
The fish was taken out of the primary tank and put into a secondary tank (this 5gal) to rest and sit by himself. To be honest, I am not sure what killed him. I think it was a type of fungus though based on the white tufty material he ended up getting on him. Two fish in that tank were picking on eachother and although I tried to seperate them in the tank, they both ended up dying. The fish was only in that tank for a few days. I think I would have to get at least new filter media but I am not sure how to clean the rest of the filter. I will take a look online. Have you ever had luck with that bacteria set up that they sell to add beneficial bacteria to water?
He still seems to be doing well and doesnt mind the tank. I just have to get a filter up and running and get that tank in good shape.

Its ok, I am very passionate about animals myself which is why I was very upset. I have actually stopped eating beef and pork and hope to cut out some others as well because I care about animals so much. My Aunt was an animal rights person and almost got arrested several times for standing up for dogs in cages at pet stores.  :Smile: 
I really do try to keep all animals (water or land) healthy and happy but apparently I am a little better at land animals and need some more guidance on water creatures.. lol.

We will see how I do. Hopefully he will feel better soon.

----------


## Necromencer

> HI Michael, 
> Thanks for your response. 
> The fish was taken out of the primary tank and put into a secondary tank (this 5gal) to rest and sit by himself. To be honest, I am not sure what killed him. I think it was a type of fungus though based on the white tufty material he ended up getting on him. Two fish in that tank were picking on eachother and although I tried to seperate them in the tank, they both ended up dying. The fish was only in that tank for a few days. I think I would have to get at least new filter media but I am not sure how to clean the rest of the filter. I will take a look online. Have you ever had luck with that bacteria set up that they sell to add beneficial bacteria to water?
> He still seems to be doing well and doesnt mind the tank. I just have to get a filter up and running and get that tank in good shape.
> 
> Its ok, I am very passionate about animals myself which is why I was very upset. I have actually stopped eating beef and pork and hope to cut out some others as well because I care about animals so much. My Aunt was an animal rights person and almost got arrested several times for standing up for dogs in cages at pet stores. 
> I really do try to keep all animals (water or land) healthy and happy but apparently I am a little better at land animals and need some more guidance on water creatures.. lol.
> 
> We will see how I do. Hopefully he will feel better soon.



Are you turning into a vegetarian purely out of principle or because you think that somehow you will stop people eating meat?

----------


## rob2000

I don't want to be the reason that a pig or cow is killed. I actually have a potbelly pig too so it really doesnt make sense. Ultimately I am going to try to cut out Chickens and Turkeys as well but I have to take baby steps. I will not recommend that others follow me but they can if they would like. I also watched a movie called "forks over knives". If you haven't seen it I would recommend it. It was very interesting and was one of the reasons I am trying to cut animals out of my diet. 
Needless to say I wont be eating frogs legs.. lol

----------


## Carlos

> ...I am going to upgrade his conditions as soon as I understand if my tank is clean enough or if I need to do a better cleaning job first. 
> I used basic soap, kind of like antibacterial hand soap with very hot water to clean last night. Scrubbed soap all over and rinsed. Repeated one time.  Thoughts?


Wow Rob... I'm both surprised and confused about this comment.  Did you used soap because someone told you or is that an established practice when you clean your fish and frog tanks?  The reason I ask is because soap is a great human skin antibacterial; but a very toxic substance in aquatic environments.  Nothing (brushes, pails, etc.) that comes in contact with soap should be shared when cleaning fish/frog tanks and the tank itself should never be washed with soap.  If you have used soap in the past, that probably explains your fish deaths and frog ailments  :Frown:  .

----------


## rob2000

No, I havent had to wash any of my tanks (for disinfecting purposes) and actually it is not a regular occasion that I loose fish believe it or not. I have not used any soap in frogees environment in the past so that is definitely not the cause of any of his issues.

----------


## rob2000

Well I was on a good track and ran to the store to get a new filter. However, when I put the filter on the tank, of course some sand goes into it and clogs it. Looks like I have to get another filter. Any recommends?

----------


## Felis

Hi,

I realize that this thread is back to the main topic, but I still want to apologize for my second post here. That was unnecessarily aggresive and I´m not proud of it.

What kind of filter did you purchase? Normally, sand doesn´t cause any problems. Is it possible to put the intake of the filter in a higher position, so that it can´t suck in the sand that easily?

----------


## Tony

> I will agree it does look like a ACF.   
> Moving it to the 5 g can be very easy. 
> 
> I would start using some water from one of you other tanks to get the 5 Gal 
> started. It will have some of the bacteria to help get the cycle started. 
> and if you can get a small sachet of gravel from the same tank you got the water from
> that would be great. 
> Does the 5 G have a filter?
> 
> ...


This isn't sound advice, the kind of bacteria that establish the nitrogen cycle are not present in the water column and I would never recommend adding a fish or any other creature to a tank that will already be pushing the limits. This guy is striving hard to improve the condition and life style of his frog so lets not stear him in the wrong direction.

----------


## Tony

> Best is a 10% solution of clorox and water.  and rinse out with a mixture of over dosed de-chlorinator and tap water. 
> 3X the normal dose for 1 gallon, 
> 
> and then rinse with plain de Chlorinated water 
> 
> let sit over night dry and see if you still smell any clorox
> if there is any hard water stains a paper towel damped with white vinegar will do the trick 
> and that will kill just about any bug.


If this filter has been sitting dry for some time a simple rinse will suffice. No know fish diseases can survive total dryout.

----------


## Tony

> Hi All, 
> Thank you for your feedback. 
> I have put aside about 3/4 of the 5gal tank of water and have an additional gallon set aside seperately that i can add as well. It has been sitting since late last night. I also bought a dechlorinator called Kordon NovAqua Plus Water Conditioner to remove the cloramines. I did not clean the tank with clorox which is my only concern. The fish that was housed in that tank died over a month ago and the tank was dry. Do we think that I should start over with clorox and wait for temp to return to room temperature again or would bacteria be dead already. It was only used for 2 days and no algae grew on it etc. 
> 
> I did get some white and black sand for that tank instead of the "bite sized" gravel. 
> I already had the ammonia kit so I bought the Nitrate kit (nitrite kit was not there) and I am going to test the water tonight now that it has been 2 days and see what is happening in there before dumping that water.
> I have to get some new filter media before using the filter but the increased water will hopefully help. Just worried he will not like the current since he isnt used to that. 
> Will keep you posted when I do the tests. He is still active and looking for food today.


Good news and great progress.

----------


## Tony

> Well I was on a good track and ran to the store to get a new filter. However, when I put the filter on the tank, of course some sand goes into it and clogs it. Looks like I have to get another filter. Any recommends?


Put a sponge or filter bag over the intake. You can also use a piece of pantyhose to keep from sucking sand up. What filter did you go with?

----------


## Louis Charles Bruckner

> Put a sponge or filter bag over the intake. You can also use a piece of pantyhose to keep from sucking sand up. What filter did you go with?


True that will protect the filter but won't solve the issue. 
also what ever you put over the intake will get clogged as well in time. 

The problem is the intake tube is too long. 
I will bet that there are two segments and the intake guard.

I would take out one of the segments to shorten the intake tube. 
So the intake is not so close to the sand.

and if there isn't a way to shorten the intake tube you can adjust the flow on the intake to a lower flow 
and would set it to the lowest setting so the moving water doesn't stress out the frog.

----------


## rob2000

HI All 
I got the whisper PF 10 for up to 10 gal so I can switch if needed to a 10 gal.
I haven't seen Frogee eat but I did give up on the small pellets and went for repto min because it is easier for him to see at the top. I put a small piece in last night and I dont see it today so I am hoping that he ate it. He is out and about today but still looks fat. The pet shop (on my second visit) recommended I put the Fluval Edge foam piece over the filter tip. Unfortunately it is at its shortest seting which means I have to cut the intake. I will try it at the longest level with the foam and see if it works without too much trouble, then I will try to cut if that doesnt work. I will try a few things. Tank is at 74degrees right now. 
Found some live plants but wanted to do some research first. Some found are argentine sword, aqua fern, amazon sword, kyoto and compacta.. any thoughts on these?
Don't worry Felis, we are all ok now. I think a good lesson was learned for all of us so I am happy that it happend.  :Smile:

----------

Felis

----------


## rob2000

I should also say, thank you all for your help. I am hoping this will really improve frogee's life with me and although we got off to a rough start, I am very happy that I was able to gather some great information. 

I will keep updating until bloat decreases (hopefully). I may need some assistance in making sure the tank cycles properly. 
I did not rinse his small housing cave on the last change to the 5gal so hopefully some good bacteria hung around.

----------


## Felis

Hi,

do you know anyone with a healthy, cycled tank? Then you could ask this person to give you some dirt from a matured filter to seed your tank with beneficial bacteria. However, this bacteria are aerobic and die off quickly, so the transport shouldn´t last longer than about one hour. You would still need to test the water in your frog´s new home, but this procedure greatly helps to shorten the cycling.

P.S.: I would recommend very robust plants such as Anubias sp. or Bolbitis heudelotii, and cheap, fast growing species (e.g. Ceratophyllum sp., Egeria sp., Lemna minor, Najas sp. etc. With floating plants, you don´t have problems with your frog displanting them  :Wink: ). Especially fast growing plants help to improve the water quality and provide hiding places for the frog. Thin-leafed plants are easily damaged by the frog´s claws and at least in my tank, they don´t do well. Personally I like Echinodorus very much, but they just don´t really work with my ACFs.

----------


## Tony

> True that will protect the filter but won't solve the issue. 
> also what ever you put over the intake will get clogged as well in time. 
> 
> The problem is the intake tube is too long. 
> I will bet that there are two segments and the intake guard.
> 
> I would take out one of the segments to shorten the intake tube. 
> So the intake is not so close to the sand.
> 
> ...


How do you know what filter he has? Not all small tank filters have " tubes", so don' t try to quote and correct me because you don't like that I called you out earlier, and don't send me anymore of you PM's trying to convince me that you are a genius. I don't care what worked for you, and that you have had a couple of freshwater tanks over the last 20 years. 
Our advice here needs to be kept to a set of standards that are fool proof, not people's proud opinions based on their so called "success".

----------


## Louis Charles Bruckner

At least I had the common courtesy to do it privately.

----------


## rob2000

Aww, lets all take a nice Sunday relaxation breath. Hope the weather is just as nice there as it is here or better!

Anyway, good news is that the foam thing seems to be working. The filter is up and running. Not sure if it is too strong of a current for him or not, he seems to be getting swept away a little and goes to the little silky plants I have in there for protection. I am thinking I might stop at the pet store (yet again) and pick up some more hiding places etc so he can move around some more without getting pushed around. 
How active should a clawed frog really be? Usually he just comes to the front for food but now he seems to be moving around more. Is this ok?

----------


## Felis

Hi,

I bet it just enjoys the room it has now  :Wink:  It also has to get used to the new tank. ACFs like to swim; as long as it does take a rest from time to time, it will be just fine.

You can also use simple terracotta pots (new ones without fertilizer residues) for the frog to hide in; you only have to make sure that there are no too-small holes so that the frog can´t get stuck.

----------


## rob2000

Well that would be great! I think I am going to also pick up an argentine sword or two to help him rest close to the top. For now I have to figure out how to close up the filter so he doesnt escape while I am out.
He is really active right now. I think I am going to be careful of how much food I give him so he doesnt get more bloated from fatness! How often should I feed?

Anyone have experience with those tubed plants at Petco. No one online seems to mention that they could have disease etc. Tube said "no snails". Should I be concerned?

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## rob2000

Anyone have experience with those Petco tubed plants? I did some research online and seems that they arent raised with snails. My main concern would be bacteria/parasites etc obviously.

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## Felis

Hm, about every two to three days is normally a good feeding regime for an adult frog. Yours is very small for its age, but I would try it like this. Just watch it carefully; you will soon find out the right amount. 
I´m not sure if it will grow despite of it´s age or if the bloat will reduce (could be a permanent kidney damage amongst other possibilities), but there still is a good chance that it will have a good life with improved environmental conditions. High quality food might help as well.

As we don´t have Petco shops here, I can´t say anything about those plants. But many bacteria/ parasites will die off if you quarantine the plants in a bucket of water (with enough light and daily water changes) for 1-2 weeks before adding them to the tank.

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## rob2000

I bought the Repto min pellets so I will try every 2 days or so for now. His belly seems to be a little red from where the sand is touching him probably because his belly is too big and it is rubbing on the bottom more.. It is only in the spot that would hit the ground more due to bloating so hopefully that is all it is.

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## Felis

I never used Repto min pellets, but after all I´ve read they seem to make a very good staple. 
Can you upload a picture from the red belly?

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

> Anyone have experience with those Petco tubed plants? I did some research online and seems that they arent raised with snails. My main concern would be bacteria/parasites etc obviously.


I think that Petsmart also caries the same brand of plant. 
To be totally honest  I haven't had the greatest result as far as plant hardiness.

You might have better luck. 
The plants are packaged with a hydro-gell and what looks like fertilizer 
small white granules. I don't think they are perlite.
I would rinse the plants very well before planting in the tank. 

The three plants in the front of the tank are plants I bought at petsmart (tubes) 
and the two were bought at a local trusted pet shop. 
At the same time and the plants were roughly the same size.  4 months ago.
The three plants haven't grown much and I started out with 5 (tube plants) and 2 died 
so I am not impressed with that brand and way of selling plants.

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## rob2000

mmm interesting. Those two plants look really nice! Im only nervous because a lot of the shops put them in the same tank as other fish. 
I do have a localish aquarium that I have had some luck with in Greenwich, CT for fish purchasing and they gave me some good advice with my goldfish tank when I went away on vacay. As long as the tube plants have no history of disease with them I could try it. The disease issue was my main concern.

I will try to get a picture of the red belly when he stands up. It is really just a little pink and I dont see anything on his legs or arms. It is literally just like a little faint pink rash on the lowest part of his belly that would touch the sand. I also added some smooth large rocks to the tank in hopes that it might help him move around a little smoother.

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

> As long as the tube plants have no history of disease with them I could try it. The disease issue was my main concern.


All I can say is that I never had a problem concerning any diseases with either sources of the plants I have bought from.
or snails.

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## Michael

> I bought the Repto min pellets so I will try every 2 days or so for now. His belly seems to be a little red from where the sand is touching him probably because his belly is too big and it is rubbing on the bottom more.. It is only in the spot that would hit the ground more due to bloating so hopefully that is all it is.


What brand of sand did you wind up purchasing?

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## rob2000

I got sand from petco, not sure of the exact brand name. 
Tonight isn't looking good for Frogee. He seemed pretty perky yesterday but today he seems sluggish and isn't moving around too much. Still very bloated. Not sure if there is anything else I can do for him. 
Any suggestions? SHould I put salt back into tank?

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## rob2000

Wow.. what happend? Everyone disappeared on me? 
Well, Frogee is still in his 5gal. I fixed it up a bit better so it wasnt as open and he seems to like it better. He is moving around a little more and I saw him eat yesterday. I actually took him to the vet and although I didnt get much good information, the vet did say that it felt like there was air in his tummy. I am thinking it is fluid. He recommended that I leave him in the 5gal to see what happens. Didn't really recommend medicine but did say that he though Tetracycline was safe for frogs if needed. 
I will keep watching Frogee. Going to check water tonight. It was ok on Monday night (no pH, ammonia or Nitrates).

EDIT:
I checked perameters today and found Ammonia a little high. pH and Nitrates not an issue. How much water do I change to keep tank cycling but remove some ammonia?

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## Michael

> Wow.. what happend? Everyone disappeared on me? 
> Well, Frogee is still in his 5gal. I fixed it up a bit better so it wasnt as open and he seems to like it better. He is moving around a little more and I saw him eat yesterday. I actually took him to the vet and although I didnt get much good information, the vet did say that it felt like there was air in his tummy. I am thinking it is fluid. He recommended that I leave him in the 5gal to see what happens. Didn't really recommend medicine but did say that he though Tetracycline was safe for frogs if needed. 
> I will keep watching Frogee. Going to check water tonight. It was ok on Monday night (no pH, ammonia or Nitrates).
> 
> EDIT:
> I checked perameters today and found Ammonia a little high. pH and Nitrates not an issue. How much water do I change to keep tank cycling but remove some ammonia?


I still think a 10 gallon would be better and I'd avoid medication. Ammonia is still bad news unfortunately. I would do 50% water changes.

Did you pick up a filter yet? Also maybe pick up some Prime, it neutralizes Ammonia but it's not a permanent fix, it may make your frogs life a little easier though until the tank is cycled.

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## xxianxx

I am suprised how often "get a ten gal tank " has been ignored, it is the min requirement required for this species. The problems you are still getting with water quality are based on water volume. Get a bigger tank and solve the issue.

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## Michael

> I am suprised how often "get a ten gal tank " has been ignored, it is the min requirement required for this species. The problems you are still getting with water quality are based on water volume. Get a bigger tank and solve the issue.


I've noticed that 10 gallon aquariums are often priced lower than the 5 gallon/even smaller gimmick 'tanks' they sell. I just don't understand why people have a hard time acquiring a 10 gallon aquarium, they literally are often slightly over $10 dollars and almost always under $15.

It's the price of going to see a movie and some popcorn.

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## rob2000

HI Guys, 
Well I wanted to give you a quick update. Bought a anubias nana for the tank to help it cycle (will wash it out first and let it sit with some clean water for a few days-week before putting it in). I also bought some fake plants for the back of the tank since it is darker back there. 

Also, after my water change issue 2 days ago, I have only changed 1 more gallon (readings of ammonia very low at that point) and yesterday and today the ammonia is 0. The nitrates are also 0 and I need to buy a kit for nitrites so that I can check that as well. I have bought "stability" just in case I need some help cycling but I am trying to avoid using it. Just have it on standby for now. 

Frogee is eating and seems happy. He is still bloated but hopefully it will go down (although I know it may not). No meds have been put in the tank.

If I do have a water quality issue I will upgrade to a 10 gal. The filter I bought can support a 10 gal so we will see. Money is not the issue at all, I already have a 29gal tank with fish and a 10gal tank with fish and now a 5gal tank all in the same room and believe me I spend a lot of time and money maintaining them. I just am not sure that the 10 gal is needed just yet. Will keep you posted but I will not be afraid to upgrade if really needed. Thanks for the suggestion. (P.S. I didnt buy the 5gal, I had it here already and that was the best immediate fix for this issue since it was available quickly and I had an emergency situation).

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## rob2000

> I've noticed that 10 gallon aquariums are often priced lower than the 5 gallon/even smaller gimmick 'tanks' they sell. I just don't understand why people have a hard time acquiring a 10 gallon aquarium, they literally are often slightly over $10 dollars and almost always under $15.
> 
> It's the price of going to see a movie and some popcorn.


Just as a random side note... I wish I lived in Illinois, a movie and popcorn in NY is about $20! ha ha.

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## rob2000

> I am suprised how often "get a ten gal tank " has been ignored, it is the min requirement required for this species. The problems you are still getting with water quality are based on water volume. Get a bigger tank and solve the issue.



I believe I am having water quality issues that are standard for a tank that is not cycled yet. I am still understanding cycling but from the research I have done it seems that the tank will build with ammonia then nitrites and nitrates to complete the cycle. I kind of expected an increase in ammonia.

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## rob2000

Tank is still testing good at 0 ammonia but still 0 nitrates. Frogee is still eating and seems to be enjoying his hiding places.  :Smile: 
Will keep you all posted.

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## Michael

> Tank is still testing good at 0 ammonia but still 0 nitrates. Frogee is still eating and seems to be enjoying his hiding places. 
> Will keep you all posted.


That's good he is doing well. I would check for Nitr*i*tes though because they can be more toxic than ammonia, it does mean your tank is starting to cycle though.

Did his bloating subside?

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## rob2000

> That's good he is doing well. I would check for Nitr*i*tes though because they can be more toxic than ammonia, it does mean your tank is starting to cycle though.
> 
> Did his bloating subside?



HI Michael!
Yeh, I am pretty happy that I seem to be clear right now with test issues but I do want to add nitrites to my list of tests.

I went to pet store to find the nitrite test but they didnt have it. Ill look again on my way home from work tomorrow.
No, bloating is the same but he does have a great appetite.

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## Miss Blue

I have been following this thread and am very glad to see you are taking the time (and money!) to make Frogee healthier and happier!  Sounds like he is doing well!  I have ADF's and had to do a ton of reading and questioning as I second guessed my every move!  Hope your little guy continues to do well!  :Cool:

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## rob2000

> I have been following this thread and am very glad to see you are taking the time (and money!) to make Frogee healthier and happier!  Sounds like he is doing well!  I have ADF's and had to do a ton of reading and questioning as I second guessed my every move!  Hope your little guy continues to do well!



Hi there Miss Blue!
Sorry for the late response. Thank you. I have definitely spent a lot of money on this one but that is no object for Frogee to feel better. 

Frogee has been hanging in there. He seems to really like his new tank. I bought some more plants and still have the live one in a seperate tank to try to ensure that there is no disease on it before putting it in with him. I might put it in this weekend. 

As for the tank, I have been unable to find a nitrite test at my local petshops but I can say that I am testing the ammonia and nitrate on an every other day basis and all is still 0. I am doing about a 1gal water change maybe once a week (if that) but not religiously to try not to disrupt the cycling. 

Frogee is still bloated and he has some red spots under his belly and legs where they would hit the sand due to his inflation status. I believe the sand was irritating his skin when he was looking for food so over the weekend I removed it and replaced with pebbles big enough that he can't get them in his mouth (I sat on the floor and sorted them ha ha). I left one patch with no pebbles or sand now so that he can find the food and he seems to be getting used to looking in that spot. 

He is eating extremely well. Always looking for food. I decided to use the frog and tadpole bites that sink and I give him about 4-5 per day as the instructions mention. There is no food leftover to remove at the end of his feeding!

Not really sure what to do about the bloating (if there is anything). I wish it would go down even a little. 

Well update you soon. Please let me know if you have any suggestions. I think we are on a good track now!

I have some friends with ADFs and I have recommended big tanks with filters  :Smile: 

Thanks!

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## Felis

Hi,

the problem with pebbles is that dirt can easily be trapped inside the holes between them. Please make sure to siphon out as much as possible with each water change- your frog is still far away from perfect health and should be kept in a more or less clean environment. I don´t know the pellets you are using, but instructions on the packaging tend towards overfeeding, which should be avoided as well. I still recommend to feed every other day in order to give him time to digest properly.
Nitrite tests are pretty much a standard product, so they should be widely available. Do you know another store or would it be possible to order it online?
Fingers crossed that your froggy will get better soon  :Wink:

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

Hi Rob, 
Glad to hear the froggy is doing better and eating well.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but if the bloating hasn't gone down any yet  it might never completely go away.
But you are doing great. :Big Applause: 

All that matters is that froggy is happy. And it sounds like it is. 

And I am pretty sure that your tank is fully cycled by now. 
So you can test every week or so. 
You do have a filter?
If so you can do water changes a little less frequent. Like every 2 weeks.
Your nose will tell you if you are waiting too long. 
Well before the tank turns toxic for froggy. 

What I did for my ADF and will more than likely work for your little guy 
I got a little ceramic shallow food dish (kidney shaped) and pushed it into the gravel 
of my tank so the gravel is level with the rim of the dish. 
and I drop the pellets into that dish and the frogs find it right away. 

I also have a large clean up crew in the tank, 
a buch of small snails that live in the gravel and 6 amano shrimp.  and the 3 cory catfish. 
so any extra gets eaten quickly. 

Post some picts!

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## rob2000

Hey!
Thanks for the info. I did get a filter about 2 weeks ago (maybe more.. time flies!). It is for a 10 gal so if I do upgrade to the 10 I have a filter that will work for it. 
I put some fake plants to help break the current a little so he isnt rolling all over the place. He seems to have gotten used to the movement now.

What I tried to do was leave the sand only in the spot where he would look for food so he knew where to find the food all the time. But because he is rolling on his belly over the sand frantically looking for food, it kept being irritated so I removed the sand from that section too. In his feeding spot now is just bare bottom tank and I always drop the food in that spot so that it doesnt get stuck in the rocks and he will never find it. I chose sinking food so it doesnt fly in circles around the top and drop in a random spot.

I took Felis advice and decreased the feeding. The pellets are very small (like pieces of course sand almost) and he is always hungry so I was feeding him every day. I am going to try every other day and see how that goes or I will feed every day and less pellets (2-3 instead of 5-6)  if needed. 

He doesnt seem uncomfortable but I do want that irritation on the belly to go away. It is hard to get a pic of it but it doesnt seem to have gotten worse since I removed the sand so I think that was it. 

Ill try to get some good pics later today when he is a little more active.

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## Miss Blue

> Hi there Miss Blue!
> Sorry for the late response. Thank you. I have definitely spent a lot of money on this one but that is no object for Frogee to feel better. 
> 
> Frogee has been hanging in there. He seems to really like his new tank. I bought some more plants and still have the live one in a seperate tank to try to ensure that there is no disease on it before putting it in with him. I might put it in this weekend. 
> 
> As for the tank, I have been unable to find a nitrite test at my local petshops but I can say that I am testing the ammonia and nitrate on an every other day basis and all is still 0. I am doing about a 1gal water change maybe once a week (if that) but not religiously to try not to disrupt the cycling. 
> 
> Frogee is still bloated and he has some red spots under his belly and legs where they would hit the sand due to his inflation status. I believe the sand was irritating his skin when he was looking for food so over the weekend I removed it and replaced with pebbles big enough that he can't get them in his mouth (I sat on the floor and sorted them ha ha). I left one patch with no pebbles or sand now so that he can find the food and he seems to be getting used to looking in that spot. 
> 
> ...


 My ADF's started in those tiny little containers the stores sell them in and ended up moving them to a nice fluval edge tank!  they have since reproduced multiple times and I think they are working on some more....needless to say when it comes to frogs price doesn't matter! cheers to frogs!

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## rob2000

HI All!
I thought I would give an update on Frogee's condition because I hate when people leave me hanging on these types of posts. 

Since we last spoke Frogee has deflated significantly! His entire body really slimmed down. Right now the only part of his body that is still fat is his legs. There is a white line under his belly but I believe that it is the extra skin that isnt being used anymore since the bloat. He doesnt seem bothered by it at all. 

I still find the the little pieces of left over sand in the tank on occassion make the bottoms of his legs red but I am slowly working that sand out. The larger rocks seemed to really help the situation and so far so good with the water condition. I try to check perameters once a week to make sure the ammonia isn't an issue and haven't had a big issue.. knock on wood! I try to change a galloon or so every two weeks/three weeks or when I see that the ammonia came up slightly. I am not sure the tank has cycled but I havent seen any large peaks of ammonia etc. 

Frogee's appetite is still good and I am feeding him every other day right now. 

Thank you to all of you who had great suggestions. I am hoping Frogee is on his way to recovery. So far so good.. keep your fingers crossed!  :Smile:

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## Necromencer

> HI All!
>  I hate when people leave me hanging on these types of posts.



Not to sound rude, but this thread has more than 1,500 views and 4 pages of comments. In the past three months, this thread has received the most attention. 

Glad to see the frog is slowly recuperating, though.

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## rob2000

> Not to sound rude, but this thread has more than 1,500 views and 4 pages of comments. In the past three months, this thread has received the most attention. 
> 
> Glad to see the frog is slowly recuperating, though.


Hi Necromencer, 
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. The goal of my post was to update all of you on the health of Frogee since all of you helped me try to make him better. I didnt want you to be wondering what happend to him (if you were interested). Usually, people get help from more experienced caregivers and then never update on if the animal is alive, well, bad etc. I was not trying to say that anyone ignored me which is how I think you took my comment. 

Hope you are all well.

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## rob2000

HI Guys, 
Well, after my positive post, I am concerned about Frogee. As you know, he deflated significantly in the belly area but is still inflated in the back legs. He was eating well and I was feeding him every other day. However, this morning, I noticed that Frogee is very lethargic and is not eating. He is struggling to get air at the top of the tank. I tested the water and found the pH to be in the green/blue range, the ammonia had a very slight amount and the nitrates were 0. I did a slight water change to get the ammonia back to 0. I have also lowered the water a bit so that the 10 gal has about 6 gal (just enough that the filter can run) to help Frogee get to the top. There are also some plants in there so he can use them as steps to get to the top. I dont see anything that happened which would have caused this to happen to him. Does anyone have any suggestions to help? I am afraid that I will loose him overnight or in the next day or so if he doesnt turn around soon. Thanks all.

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## Michael

Any update here? I think lowering the water so he can get air and keeping the water clean with frequent water changes is probably best for right now.

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