# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) >  fiberglass screen vs fabric type barrier

## Lynn

Hi,
Wondering what FF members think?  
Re:
fiberglass screen vs fabric type barrier above hydro ( see link below) 

Substrate Barrier - Substrate Barrier | Josh's Frogs

Aslo, has anyone any experience with this product? Used with hydroponic gardening. Very cool!

GENERAL HYDROPONICS: CocoTek

GENERAL HYDROPONICS: CocoTek Liners

It is available in pots, block and mats.

GENERAL HYDROPONICS: CocoTek Mats

_"Made from natural coconut fibers and bound by organic latex, CocoTek® Mats are designed to lie underneath media containers and can be easily cut to any size. In ebb and flow tables, plant roots will grow through and under the Mats where moisture remains between flood cycles."_

I wondering what _"organic latex"_ is ? 

Thanks, Lynn

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## Beachfroggy

"Natural" or "synthetic" latex would be the actual distinction if there was one.  One rubber substance is derived from plant or tree sources and the other from petroleum type products There is no true "organic latex" because no certification of latex exists as to 100% organic components.  Recognized Boards certify "organic" and none certify latex as of yet.   As long as "latex" is okay for the enclosure the labeling is meaningless.  It is false advertising.

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## Brian

I've never used the stuff from Josh's that you've linked too but always preferred a fabric product to the fiberglass screen. It folds around corners easily, never has any sharp pokey bits, much nicer to cut and work with, and you can easily line not only the hydroton layer but also fold it to go an inch or so up the glass (however deep your substrate is) to hold the substrate in better.

It comes in a few varieties. The kind I use is more on the flimsy fabric side compared to some of the plasticy feeling heavier duty stuff used in landscaping especially where you'll have foot traffic. The flimsy fabric kind is more than durable enough for a vivarium as it likely won't be subject to a human foot :Smile: .

You can get small rolls at the dollar store and some garden centres will sell it from large rolls cut to the length you want for pretty cheap. Home Depot and other stores will also have rolls of it that are reasonably priced for what is likely a lifetime supply for the vivarium maker.

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## ToadPaparazzi

I prefer fiberglass screen.  It drains very well and is cheap.

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## Lynn

> "Natural" or "synthetic" latex would be the actual distinction if there was one.  One rubber substance is derived from plant or tree sources and the other from petroleum type products There is no true "organic latex" because no certification of latex exists as to 100% organic components.  Recognized Boards certify "organic" and none certify latex as of yet.   As long as "latex" is okay for the enclosure the labeling is meaningless.  It is false advertising.


My thoughts as well , it is ...... very confusing advertise.
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
Lynn

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## Lynn

> I've never used the stuff from Josh's that you've linked too but always preferred a fabric product to the fiberglass screen. It folds around corners easily, never has any sharp pokey bits, much nicer to cut and work with, and you can easily line not only the hydroton layer but also fold it to go an inch or so up the glass (however deep your substrate is) to hold the substrate in better.
> 
> It comes in a few varieties. The kind I use is more on the flimsy fabric side compared to some of the plasticy feeling heavier duty stuff used in landscaping especially where you'll have foot traffic. The flimsy fabric kind is more than durable enough for a vivarium as it likely won't be subject to a human foot.
> 
> You can get small rolls at the dollar store and some garden centres will sell it from large rolls cut to the length you want for pretty cheap. Home Depot and other stores will also have rolls of it that are reasonably priced for what is likely a lifetime supply for the vivarium maker.






> I prefer fiberglass screen.  It drains very well and is cheap.



Thanks Brian and Christian,
I am at a complete stand still................deciding which product to use  :Indecisiveness: 
I didn't like the fabric at first, then realized once it gets wet it drains really nicely.
It may have the advantage of not letting any silt through?

Good grief! I'm ridiculous about these things!
Lynn

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## Michael

I have used both and actually prefer the fabric to the plastic screen.

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## Lynn

> I have used both and actually prefer the fabric to the plastic screen.


Thanks Mike,
So far I am leaning that way.
It's in......... and the corners folded easily , like Brian mentioned.
Lynn  :Butterfly:

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## bill

definitely the fabric for me. keeps the silt and muck out of my water reservoir. still have my eye on that cocotek mat though Lynn

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## Lynn

> definitely the fabric for me. keeps the silt and muck out of my water reservoir. still have my eye on that cocotek mat though Lynn



I have to give the supplier a call.
I want to know more information about the "organic latex". 
What ever that is ??????
Would be great for epiphytes .....for sure!
 I have a pc set aside for you.
I will bring it to the show.

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## Lynn

I thought I would revive this tread, and share a recent experience.
I am officially done building 3 dart enclosures simultaneously.
I babied ,wonderful,  plant cuttings John Clare generously shared at the Hamburg show!

I completed the enclosures( finished about two weeks)  using hydro, substrate fabric ( if you are interested in where I purchased this--- please PM me) and pounds and pounds of ABG. I seeded them w/ the spring tails and isopods that I started weeks ago. I held off on extending my Mist King so I could pay close attention to the needs of each newly planted little treasure I have collected for months. 

I drove my self crazy during the time  I was deciding as to  which substrate barrier to use.
My final decision was fabric.

BUT- trouble started immediately. 
For 2 weeks I watched the obvious problem of very poor drainage occurring( because of the fabric ? ) , despite the added expense of having a drain hole drilled in each of my newly purchased exo enclosures. 

*I ripped  ALL 3 enclosures apart yesterday*. Carefully pulling every plant!   :Frown:  Only to find my suspicion to be correct.
The water was sitting on top of the fabric- yet the hydro layer had only a little water, despite lots and lots of hand misting to care for the plants?

I re-build all three yesterday. I changed to the following : (from the bottom up) 
1-hydro
2-filter media ( 100% polyester) 3/4 " thick
3-fiberglass screen
4-ABG

Overnight, ( I hand  misted twice yesterday ) the hydro layer is completely full!!! In, fact 2 of the 3 tanks have drained some.
Yikes ! This could have been a real disaster ! 


Lynn

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## bill

Wow lynn, good thing you caught that. You're newly acquired babies would have all started to "inexplicably " rot away. Guess you picked up an extremely tight weave landscaping fabric.  :Frown:  screen will work better since you are not working with a pump. Good luck and keep us updated!!

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## Brian

I'm really sorry to hear that Lynn :Frown: . This is not a problem I've ever had, and I've used a few different kinds inside vivariums and also for their original purpose. I'd be interested in knowing what kind of fabric you tried, was it plastic or fabric like? If you stretch a piece out and pour water on it, does the water just sit on it or eventually drain?

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## Heather

Oh wow :/. I'm glad you shared this with us. How disappointing  :Frown: . 

I use the fiberglass mesh/screen over eggcrate with PVC elbows underneath. It worked well for my large vivarium. I still have to start my dart viv, but I want the large exo.

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## Lynn

> I'm really sorry to hear that Lynn. This is not a problem I've ever had, and I've used a few different kinds inside vivariums and also for their original purpose. I'd be interested in knowing what kind of fabric you tried, was it plastic or fabric like? If you stretch a piece out and pour water on it, does the water just sit on it or eventually drain?


Hi Brian,
It sits on top and takes forever and forever to drain.
I folded the sides up about 1/2" which did not help.
So, I think as a result it just sat there.
It was draining through so slowly the hyrdo had very little water which is what caught my attention.

It is different then the landscape fabric you had suggested I use. It is a much tighter weave. 

Looks good now ! Draining beautifully
Lynn

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## Lynn

> I thought I would revive this tread, and share a recent experience.
> I am officially done building 3 dart enclosures simultaneously.
> I babied ,wonderful,  plant cuttings John Clare generously shared at the Hamburg show!
> 
> I completed the enclosures( finished about two weeks)  using hydro, substrate fabric ( if you are interested in where I purchased this--- please PM me) and pounds and pounds of ABG. I seeded them w/ the spring tails and isopods that I started weeks ago. I held off on extending my Mist King so I could pay close attention to the needs of each newly planted little treasure I have collected for months. 
> 
> I drove my self crazy during the time  I was deciding as to  which substrate barrier to use.
> My final decision was fabric.
> 
> ...


I am reviving this thread - *yet again*. I want to share this up-date  :Smile: 

I've been planning to update this because the polyester substrate layer is not typically used.
It was not my idea. I saw it used at a herp shop here on Long Island. But, they were mean and would not share any information w/ me. They were selling small pcs 18 x18” for around 15$.  Ha ! I have sewn for a zillion years.  I knew exactly what it was.

It is 100 % polyester batting (not cotton ) used by quilters. It’s the stuff used between the layers of fabric to make a quilt ‘puffy’. It is purchased by bed size. I purchased a ---roll  ¾” thick ---single bed size--- for about 20$. I have a lot left over if anyone would like to try it; I’m happy to share. It is very similar to the filter medium in an aquarium filter. ( not the foam stuff) 

The layers are as follows—from the bottom up:
1-hydro
2-filter media ( 100%  polyester quilting batting- 3/4 " thick)
3-fiberglass screen
4-ABG

 

I'm quite pleased with it. I put these three dart enclosures together in the very beginning of Nov 2012. The plants are flourishing, it smells great (clean and sweet), and it drains down through the batting beautifully. As you can see by these photos taken today—it’s still white. No ABG has gotten through it at all. 

These three tanks are drilled---just below the hydro layer and fitted with  5/8" tubing that drains into a bucket when the water reaches that point.

 


 I use a mist king that sprays every three hours for 12 seconds. Therefore, there is a consistent flow of clean water. Even the water in the bucket smells fine. The 36" tank has 2 single mist heads and the two 18 " have one single each. The bucket collects ( from all three tanks ) much less then one might expect. I dump out 2 " of water a week.  Obviously, the drainage _speed_ is dependent on several things......... but maybe, just maybe I struck a nice balance.

even the moss is happy ! 

say hello !
 

I think what I might do differently next time is *NOT* use the hydro. I would consider using gravel instead. I have kept fish tanks for many years . I think the gravel would be more effective in maintaining a better _biological filter area_ because of all of the little edges. 

A Happy and Healthy New Year.....to all !  Lynn  :Butterfly:

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## Happy Frog

I've only been built three PDF tanks and have only used fiberglass screen between the hydroton and ABG soil.  So far no problems except that I've learned to double up with screen at the edges next to the glass.  It helps to keep the soil from slipping past and getting into the hydro layer.

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## bill

Lynn, i just saw this. i think the hydroton would actually be more beneficial to the biological filter. they may be smooth and round, but i think it's what we can't see that makes the difference. i would venture a guess to say that it really isn't as smooth as we think. i believe they are covered with microscopic holes from air pockets in the clay as it was being dried. leaving a really nice amount of surface area for bacteria to grow on. not as smooth as the rock would be. i know microscopically, the rock would be textured as well, i just think the clay would beat it out.

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## Lynn

> Lynn, i just saw this. i think the hydroton would actually be more beneficial to the biological filter. they may be smooth and round, but i think it's what we can't see that makes the difference. i would venture a guess to say that it really isn't as smooth as we think. i believe they are covered with microscopic holes from air pockets in the clay as it was being dried. leaving a really nice amount of surface area for bacteria to grow on. not as smooth as the rock would be. i know microscopically, the rock would be textured as well, i just think the clay would beat it out.


Yes, I'm sure your right! Like our aquariums , it's what ends up in there that matters.
I have not replaced a sponge filter in my 2 fluval 405 in 5 years. I just rinse ! Think of all those $10 dollar bills I saved ! 
I have a 9 year old Discus spawning ( right now ) once every 2 weeks .

The male I have is too young.    I lost her mate after the hurricane  :Frown:     The girls try ?.................. It's hormonal mayhem !!!!!  :Big Grin: 
Lynn

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## deeishealthy

I'm wondering if I should put hydroton under my false bottom for bacteria reasons. hmm

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## bill

> Yes, I'm sure your right! Like our aquariums , it's what ends up in there that matters.
> I have not replaced a sponge filter in my 2 fluval 405 in 5 years. I just rinse ! Think of all those $10 dollar bills I saved ! 
> I have a 9 year old Discus spawning ( right now ) once every 2 weeks .
> 
> The male I have is too young.    I lost her mate after the hurricane     The girls try ?.................. It's hormonal mayhem !!!!! 
> Lynn


i'm going on 4 years on my 405 sponges. 2 years on my fx5. they are the only filters i run with sponges. everything else is straight lava rock for bio only.  :Smile:  i have a buddy who breeds discus. you must have the patience of a saint for that....LOL

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## bill

> I'm wondering if I should put hydroton under my false bottom for bacteria reasons. hmm


it's not necessary with a false bottom Dee. Lynn is running a hydroton base. no false bottom.

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