# General Topics > Vivarium, Terrarium & Enclosure Discussion >  WARNING: GE Silicone I and II probably no longer safe due to added mildew inhibitor

## Omega

GE Silicone I and II, long used by fish- and frog-keepers and generally thought of to be aquarium safe, is probably no longer so. GE began using mildew inhibitors (Bioseal) recently in most their silicone products, even if the label says "100% silicone" and doesn't mention anything about mildew. According to an email from GE, all their silicone has trace amounts mildew inhibitors now except for the 1200. 

The result? People are reporting massive fish and coral die-off. I'm sure frogs would be affected too, although perhaps not as much.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...light=Silicone

Silicone crash - Canreef Aquatics Bulletin Board

Still, there are some who insist the GE I and II that says 100% silicone with no indication of added mildew inhibitors is still safe to use. Judge for yourself.

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GrifTheGreat, Mentat

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## Toni

Fabulous. I just used GE 1 this week.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## KingCam

So what is safe to use then?

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## IrishRonin

If this is true then the only thing I can think would be safe would be aquarium silicon, which sucks cause it come in a small toothpaste style tube and is much more expensive

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## ndame88

Looks like its going to be Titebond III and Gorilla Glue for backgrounds

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## Brian

> If this is true then the only thing I can think would be safe would be aquarium silicon, which sucks cause it come in a small toothpaste style tube and is much more expensive


It comes in standard tubes as well. At Home Hardware (a Canadian chain, sorry) their standard house brand silicone is labeled as aquarium safe and is something like $10 for 3 300mL tubes. I've been using it with no problems for a few years. It only comes in clear or white though.

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## BonnieLorraine

BioSeal has been in GE Silicone for years, there are threads dating back to 2006 talking about it being added, along with debates over whether or not it poses any danger. From most of what I've read, it's always been in there, they just never labeled it as such. I use CRL black silicone, just because it's what our local fish tank maker uses and I can purchase it by the case. I used GE before and haven't noticed any problems with my frogs or plants perishing though.

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## ndame88

PKsupplies.com: Neutral Cure Silicone Sealants

Link for CRL Silicone

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## BonnieLorraine

Just a warning for anyone wanting to use the CRL, the smell is rather intense and it's best done outdoors. I used it indoors, like I did with the GE, and I swear my lungs were on fire and I was coughing for the next 20 minutes.

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## Ra

i use any kind that is simply 100% silicone. If you aren't sure what product sa re 100% silicone, contact the company that makes it.

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## bigwilliestyles

> Just a warning for anyone wanting to use the CRL, the smell is rather intense and it's best done outdoors. I used it indoors, like I did with the GE, and I swear my lungs were on fire and I was coughing for the next 20 minutes.


Yeah I did indoors in a small apartment and drove my wife insane. I find that the black silicon to be more potent than the clear though.

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## Omega

> i use any kind that is simply 100% silicone. If you aren't sure what product sa re 100% silicone, contact the company that makes it.


I don't know how they get away with it, but even stuff that claims to be 100% silicone can contain mildew inhibitor.

For proof, here's a pic I copied off of Canreef...

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## Kyle4

-_- i just used The GE 100% silicone stuff on friday and saturday for my new frog tank.... says 5yr mold-free protection. didnt smell horrible. but now this thread has me wondering... :O frogs are already in there and kicking around. but if its been in there for years? we have had this tube for quite a while.

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## KingCam

I just ordered a tube of this (click here).  $8 down from $23.99 suggested retail?  Deal.

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## zimmerj

> I don't know how they get away with it, but even stuff that claims to be 100% silicone can contain mildew inhibitor.
> 
> For proof, here's a pic I copied off of Canreef...


This really bothers me as well. It's false advertising, plain &amp; simple. If there is a mold inhibiting additive, then it's not 100% silicone. Even if that inhibitor is 0.1%, then it's 99.9% silicone, not 100%.

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## bill

This is a case of misinterpreting the packaging. Any product that is 100% silicone will "provide mold-free product protection". It's not saying there are inhibitors in it. That's what silicone does, it provides a sealant that will protect against mold and mildew. Here is the difference between something without inhibitors and one without:



Notice one has a 5 year mold protection bullet? That one has inhibitors in it, the other does not. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## zimmerj

> This is a case of misinterpreting the packaging. Any product that is 100% silicone will "provide mold-free product protection". It's not saying there are inhibitors in it.


It's not a case of label misinterpretation if the manufacturer themselves state that there is in fact a mold inhibitor  :Smile:  Look back at the original post:




> GE Silicone I and II, long used by fish- and frog-keepers and generally thought of to be aquarium safe, is probably no longer so. GE began using mildew inhibitors (Bioseal) recently in most their silicone products, even if the label says "100% silicone" and doesn't mention anything about mildew. According to an email from GE, all their silicone has trace amounts mildew inhibitors now except for the 1200.

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## Lynn

This - darn - labeling has always been confusing to me!
But I'm very easily confused   :Stupid: 
More so, I'm a skeptic..... and a worry-wart 

Gosh --- what the heck is "bioseal"

I don't use anything but Aquarium sealant. ( Marineland and more recently one I forget the name of at the moment)
sealant- ie Marineland Marineland Aquarium Sealant (1 oz) 

I even have concerns about the long-term safety of the aquarium sealants!
I have not read anything recently regarding the long-term safety profile on the Marineland product;
specifically its safety long term on frog reproduction. 
Sadly, there are just zero funds to do these kinds of research projects  :Frown:  
As a result, we are left with zero information.

In fact, as far as I know , there is no safety profile on any of the Aquarium Sealants  for 'frogs' , only for fish.

If anyone knows of any recent information on the aquarium sealant products ( for frogs)  , I would love to read it.

 :Butterfly:

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## zimmerj

It is sad that there are no funds for this sort of thing. However, one thing we do have to fall back on are people with years of experience using silicone products. This is my post on another board when someone was asking specifically about a silicone ingredient list they found and it may help people here too:

I'm no chem major but I can tell you that there is an FDA regulation regarding rubber coming in contact with food. I believe this is what you want to look for, that the silicone conforms to 21 CFR 177.2600. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and here is a link to that regulation: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/script...fm?fr=177.2600

Here is a link to DAP silicone that meets the requirements of that regulation. If you look under product details, that's where it mentions this regulation: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0002Y...528360_TE_dp_1

Now, just keep in mind that this does not mean that the FDA has analyzed this product or that it's FDA approved. The FDA may or may not agree that it meets those requirements  :Smile:

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## irThumper

We recently used DAP marine and auto 100% silicone on a project, (made a drain filter for my outdoor 40 gallon tub habitat) is that safe? It says not rated for constant under water use. For that matter what about the blue and purple plumbers glues?  We used that to put the drain pipe in.  :Confused:   The drain in buried in clay balls beneath substrate; the tub is planted in various sedge grasses and ferns.

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## bill

> It's not a case of label misinterpretation if the manufacturer themselves state that there is in fact a mold inhibitor  Look back at the original post:


Duh, missed that. Excellent point. I would think that "trace" elements aren't an issue, otherwise there would have been a huge thing about it on dendroboard. And most of the people I know from there still use ge2. Luckily, I don't use silicone in any of my tanks. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## zimmerj

> Duh, missed that. Excellent point. I would think that "trace" elements aren't an issue, otherwise there would have been a huge thing about it on dendroboard. And most of the people I know from there still use ge2. Luckily, I don't use silicone in any of my tanks.


One main difference I read on dendroboard is that plants will root to GE silicone 1 but won't root to silicone 2, so that alone makes it sound like silicone 1 is a better option.

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## irThumper

> Duh, missed that. Excellent point. I would think that "trace" elements aren't an issue, otherwise there would have been a huge thing about it on dendroboard. And most of the people I know from there still use ge2. Luckily, I don't use silicone in any of my tanks. 
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


What do you use instead of silicone??

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## Carlos

There are many aquarium silicone products in caulk gun type containers both in clear and black.  A quick search at Amazon produced various products; probably lot's more if conducted a search in internet.  It might be cheaper to buy silicone at hardware store; but you are taking your chances with it  :EEK!:  .

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## bill

> What do you use instead of silicone??


I don't have any use for it in my tanks. The foam adheres to the glass on it's own and I cover foam using titebond 3 wood glue and coco fiber, or other substances, depending on the look I want to attain. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## irThumper

> I don't have any use for it in my tanks. The foam adheres to the glass on it's own and I cover foam using titebond 3 wood glue and coco fiber, or other substances, depending on the look I want to attain. 
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


I always wondered about the safety of the foam too... so the spray can stuff is safe, as well as the wood glue?  Guess I'm getting paranoid now :P

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## Amy

> There are many aquarium silicone products in caulk gun type containers both in clear and black.  A quick search at Amazon produced various products; probably lot's more if conducted a search in internet.  It might be cheaper to buy silicone at hardware store; but you are taking your chances with it  .


That's what I buy.  You can be sure it's safe, get more for the money, and with the caulk gun it's really easy to use.  Just peace of mind for me.

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## zimmerj

> I always wondered about the safety of the foam too... so the spray can stuff is safe, as well as the wood glue?  Guess I'm getting paranoid now :P


Hey, that just means you're putting a lot of thought into it  :Smile:  I'm in the same boat as I'm also in the process of a build &amp; have 2 others I wanna rebuild. I think it's better to be safe than sorry!

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irThumper

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## zimmerj

It looks like many wood glues meet the reg for incidental food contact. Just picked up a gallon of Titebond II at Lowe's for about $18. This should go pretty far.

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## bill

Titebond 2 is not waterproof. Titebond 3 (green) is the water proof one. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## irThumper

> Hey, that just means you're putting a lot of thought into it  I'm in the same boat as I'm also in the process of a build &amp; have 2 others I wanna rebuild. I think it's better to be safe than sorry!


Thanks Zimmerj! That's true, I want to make sure everything is safe and sound before I bring my new frog friends home next spring  :Smile:

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## zimmerj

> Titebond 2 is not waterproof. Titebond 3 (green) is the water proof one. 
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


Neither are waterproof. They are only water-resistant. Titebond II passes ANSI/HPVA Type II water-resistance. Titebond III passes Type I. I don't need the specifications of Type I for a vivarium and Titebond II is cheaper than III. In my opinion, it seems to be just fine for my application. I do like to take advantage of my smartphone while shopping  :Smile: 

Here is the difference, from Titebond's website:

What is the difference between the ANSI/HPVA Type I and Type II water-resistance specification?

Both of these tests are conducted using 6” by 6” birch laminates glued together to make three-ply plywood. The test for Type I is clearly more stringent than Type II, and involves boiling the glue bonds and testing the specimens while they are wet.&#160;

Type I testing involves cutting the 6" by 6" assemblies into 1" by 3" specimens, boiling them for 4 hours, then baking the specimens in a 145&#176;F oven for 20 hours. They are boiled for an additional 4 hours, then immediately cooled using running water. The specimens are sheared while wet, and the bonds must pass certain strength and wood failure requirements to pass the Type I specification.

Type II testing involves cutting the 6" by 6" assemblies into 2" by 5" specimens, soaking them for 4 hours, then baking the specimens in a 120&#176;F oven for 19 hours. This is repeated for a total of three cycles, and the bonds must not delaminate to pass the Type II specification.

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## Paul

You may not need to boil your tank or have it survive being sheared, but they extra strength of the III means less chance of water getting in and leeching chemicals into the soil. I buy 3 buy the gallon and love it. I tried 2 once (bought a small tube of it) and hated how it turned out. Just my opinion though.

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## zimmerj

That is a good point. Maybe I'll go exchange it for III. It was about $9 more per gallon but that $9 is worth the extra safety.

Another great thing about Titebond: It is FDA APPROVED for use with indirect food contact, specifically for cutting boards (per the label). I'd say that's fairly direct contact with food, although maybe only food storage is considered direct contact. Anyway, that means they went through the rigorous approval process and spent a lot of money to do so.

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## Paul

Yeah I love Titebond. It cleans off your hands super easy (like elmers glue). It dries fast, but will need 24 - 48 hours between coats to make sure you dont end up with deep wet spots that take forever to dry. 

I always try to look at things from a. Yeah it will save me money now, but what risk am i exposing myself to and is it worth the savings.

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## zimmerj

I have some large gaps I need to fill. Do any of you know if there are any safe wood fillers or anything like that? Or should I just use the glue?

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## Paul

Zim,

A gap in what exactly?

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## zimmerj

Spray foam. I'm a rookie so I didn't know how to use it very well and had to cut it back in some parts. I found that the bubbles get larger the deeper you get. So I need to fill some of the bubble cavities.

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## Paul

You can fill it in with more spray foam  :Smile:

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## canadian frog

so are there any conclusions as to the silicone issue, Im starting a build and would love to know if im going to have a problem, as for titebond III, can not find it anywhere in my 
Canadian city any alternative, what are my fellow Canadians using instead of titebondIII, maybe I will have to go to the states to get it, let me know please.

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## bill

i spent an hour reading labels on ge silicone today at home depot (Mrs. Chipmunk was less than thrilled over this), and could not find one thing that mentioned mildew inhibitors on the label. and yes, i know, they aren't going to advertise that, but then i went over the links in the original post. this is not an amphibian issue, but a REEF TANK issue. i found this quote within the thread that was linked in the first thread. Originally Posted by *ScubaSteve* 
_The mildew inhibitors are petroleum distillates. The only thing that will remove them is aspiration by a skimmer (basically "undissolving" them) and big water changes. They don't stick to carbon. The silicone may also be leaching ammonia if it didn't cure long enough. Add an ammonia absorbing pad.

. GE didn't even list the petroleum distillates in their MSDS until recently as they were a trade secret._




so, after doing some research and talking to a few reefers who i know and respect a LOT, i have come to the conclusion that for a vivarium, ge silicone is indeed safe. now, if you are one of those people who wants to run an paludarium with an overkill protein skimmer in it, then i would only use aquarium sealant. also, if you are adding silicone to a waterfall, i would avoid it also, since the splashing of water somewhat duplicates a protein skimmer (but this is an extreme case).

as far as canadians and titebond 3, elmer's makes a waterproof wood glue that is almost identical to titebond 3.

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jarteta97, Lady

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## canadian frog

wow bill, ive spent countless hours at lowes, home depot, bmr and home hardware (last 2 are Canadian hardware stores) looking and reading countless numbers of silicone tubes and glue bottles i'll try the elmers stuff, but for my waterfall aquarium silicon should be safe, thanks for the info back to viv construction, thanks again

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## Josh

I wouldn't go with silicone for a waterfall. Any sort of coco fiber etc. covering will eventually be washed off, and even if you aren't using a covering, the silicone would look dull and unappealing. I used Bill's suggestion of Drylok hydraulic cement tinted with acrylic paint. It won't wash off, and you can layer it dark to light for a more natural look. You can find more info about it, and other options from Bill in this thread:

http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...ion-101-a.html

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## canadian frog

im just looking at silicon to hold the slate rock in place them in covering in great stuff foam, any suggestions are great if you have a better idea im open to options, still in the very early stages of the build, my drawing has given me ideas but they keep changing as I run into small after thought problems, anybodys input would be great thanks josh

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## bill

start a thread on your build so we don't side track this one  :Smile:

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## zimmerj

This thread has me wanting to start my build over again.

Oh yeah, the Titebond, that dries clear?

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## bill

titebond dries yellow. but 2 part epoxy dries clear and it is completely inert after curing.  :Wink:

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## canadian frog

what brand of two part epoxy do you use

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## bill

I like loctite brand. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## zimmerj

I was looking for a glue too and was recommended clear silicone. I'd rather use the glue.

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## canadian frog

any Loctite 2 part epoxy, or is there a specific one

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