# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Beginner Discussion >  Just a few questions, new at vivariums. :)

## Mitchgrunge93

Hello, I just have a few questions for you guys, if you will. =) Currently, I'm attempting to construct my first vivarium of my own. I had a frog when I was little. She was a Northern Leopard Frog, and she died suddenly one day. Probably an inadequate cage, being that I was so young and didn't know the first thing about constructing a habitat. I've wanted a frog ever since, but not your every day meadow frog. Plus, my girlfriend says that for some reason, the brightly colored ones don't gross her out as bad. So I'm going with the Darts  :Smile:  I'm quite fond of the Blue Azureus ones. I'm not sure if any of you are familiar with the bitorrent client "Vuze", but their logo is the Blue Azureus dart frog. Henceforth, I'm naming one of mine Vuze. Lol. Not sure what to name the other little froggy yet. 

Anyway, to get down to business, this is my current set up: I've got a 20 gallon long "Zilla Critter Cage". I've been told that is sufficient for 2 frogs, but no more than that. My friend and I tried putting it together to the best of our ability, however we were hit with one major problem: The pond. We cannot figure out how to section off the pond, other than taking out our gravel false-bottom and substrate and siliconing a piece of plexiglass down (no idea where to get plexiglass, and at that the right size) to section off defined, non-leaking areas for the ground and the pond. We have plastic that we bought and cut to fit inside seperating the drainage layer and the substrate. 

Also, in order to keep humidity up, Would placing a wet towel across the majority of the ventilated screen top preserve most of the humidity inside the vivarium? Also, when siliconing the background on, do you need to start it at the top of the soil layer or lower? 

Can you plant wild moss into the vivarium? We picked some out of the local woods (Indiana). 

Without a drain in the bottom, does the water just evaporate out of the gravel and there is no need for drainage, or should I get a hole drilled in the bottom of the tank? I'm lost. 

As far as heating and lighting goes, I bought an 8 1/2" clamp light from walmart, and a 75 watt "basking bulb" that was in the fish/reptile section, as well as a 75watt black "night heat" light. I feel like this is too hot, as compared to seeing the wattage posted by other members. 

Sorry for so many questions, I'll probably have more later too :/ Help is appreciated! 

Also, I need to get a few plants that I can plant in the substrate and the background, whichever material I end up using for it. I'm not sure what to use, or where to purchase it. I'm going to the Midwest Reptile Show on Sunday, and I should be able to buy my frogs there, and hopefully the plants I need. I'm not sure if I should order the plants (or frogs too, if I can't find any at the show), or just cross my fingers. I'm not sure if the show will have everything I need, maybe if one of you have been there you can give me a few heads up.  :Smile:

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## Savannah

Well welcome to the forum. I can't answer most of your questions since i am new myself. But i am sure there will be someone that can help you. Good luck with your frogs and tank.

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## Heather

Welcome to the forum  :Smile: .

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## En333

Welcome to the forum!

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## Don

Welcome.

To design in a pond, the easiest way is to use eggcrate and create a square which you can then cover all the side with screen material to stop the higher area of drainage gravel from coming into.  Then make a lower area of gravel inside the square.  The drainage water that is filtered through the soil from misting is what makes up the water in the pond then.   Just have some screen and stone come up out of the pond and over the substrate to stop substrate from falling into the water area.
The pond should then be only as deep as your drainage layer.  You also don't want the pond deeper then the frogs can walk across since your darts are not swimmers.

Your darts will not drink from a pond since they will be absorbing moisture from the wet plants and high humidity your tank will need.

As for where the water goes from the drainage layer,.... depends on how much you need to mist or wet down the tank to keep the proper humidity levels.   If the water collects and doesn't evaporate, then you need to siphon it off occasionally.  I leave a corner with a little extra screen material so I can lift the screen and substrate and push a hose down into for quick siphoning.

As for lighting and heat.   No special lighting is needed except for creating a day and night cycle or providing for plants.  If your room temps are averaging 68 - 70 at night, then a simple Under Tank Heat Pad (UTH) on the side of the tank will raise temps slightly on that side and give a warn side and cooler side for the frogs.  If you need to bring temps up at night then you'll have to check different lamps to get the right temps.  usually a 40 or 25 watt will throw some good heat.
Adding a Compact Florescent (CFL) bulb with a color spectrum of 6500K for day time use (can get at Walmart under the Reveal Daylight 24 watt packaging) will raise temps slightly and be plenty of lighting for plants with the 6500K color temp.  I run two 24 watt CFLs on a 20 long tank and have one T8 bulb to help with plant lighting also.  Adjusting the height of the lights off the tank helps adjust temperatures. 

You are also going to want to close up almost all of the screen material on your critter tank top.  Humidity has to be retained and needs to be 90 percent on average.  You are also going to have to make sure temps don't get to 85 or above for any length of time or your frogs will suffer or die.  
My dart tanks are run at between 72 and 80 degrees.  I have a very fine mist spray down the tank 6 times over a 24 hour period and for 15 seconds during each misting.  I usually have to siphon off the hydroball drainage layer every other week.


Hope this get you a start and some ideas for your tank design.
Also check out some of the build journals since there are plenty with tons of pics to help with ideas.

Don

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## Don

Forgot to mention.  The moss you found has to be cleaned of any critters when can be sitting dormant in the soil and moss.  Not positive on how to ensure its cleaned well enough but someone here may have an answer to that.

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## En333

I also have high voltage lights so I buy Flukers clamp lamps with dimmers. Theres also lots of videos on YouTube that talk about making ponds.... If you want to know how to make a background, jesseakaslick on YouTube is good at describing that. 

I don't know anything about false bottoms so idk about that...

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## En333

And Josh's frogs is an awesome place to get stuff for your frogs, just to let ya know lol

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## Mitchgrunge93

> Welcome.
> 
> To design in a pond, the easiest way is to use eggcrate and create a square which you can then cover all the side with screen material to stop the higher area of drainage gravel from coming into.  Then make a lower area of gravel inside the square.  The drainage water that is filtered through the soil from misting is what makes up the water in the pond then.   Just have some screen and stone come up out of the pond and over the substrate to stop substrate from falling into the water area.
> The pond should then be only as deep as your drainage layer.  You also don't want the pond deeper then the frogs can walk across since your darts are not swimmers.
> 
> Your darts will not drink from a pond since they will be absorbing moisture from the wet plants and high humidity your tank will need.
> 
> As for where the water goes from the drainage layer,.... depends on how much you need to mist or wet down the tank to keep the proper humidity levels.   If the water collects and doesn't evaporate, then you need to siphon it off occasionally.  I leave a corner with a little extra screen material so I can lift the screen and substrate and push a hose down into for quick siphoning.
> 
> ...



Ok, so Don, I'd like to respond to your helpful advice, but I thought I'd say this first. I returned my 20 gallon long and purchased a 29 gallon aquarium with a lid. This is it: 

I don't think it would be properly ventilated as it is, but what if I knock out the glass beneath the light? Would that allow any more ventilation? Or I could cut holes in the top of the plastic on the lid. Somehow. But anywho space shouldn't be a huge problem anymore.


Ok, back to your advice Don. Would it be possible if I went at it with a different approach, with stuff I already have on hand? I have gravel (which unfortunately got soaked in my previously failed pond attempt), which is sitting in a bucket with a heat lamp on it drying it, should be ready to go by sunday when I have my frogs. My substrate is just waiting, I keep misting it so it stays fresh. what I'm thinking about doing, and stick it to me if this isn't a good idea, but I was thinking about going to the local glass store and having them cut me a piece of plexiglass that would fit in the vivarium so that I could silicone it down to separate my land from my pond. would that be ok? I have 100% silicone. I'm not sure what the wattage is in the fluorescent bulb that came with the aquarium lid. 

I figure the covered top will keep the humidity and heat in wonderfully. Will I need to siphon if I keep a heat pad under my vivarium? Would that not increase the evaporation rate so that it wouldn't be necessary to siphon? I don't know, please don't think I'm questioning your knowledge, I know I'm a noobie. But I'm trying to work with the materials I have.

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## Don

Hey Mitch, Nice tank.  

Since your doing Dart Frogs, you need not ventilate the tank what so ever.  Daily opening of the tank to feed would be more than enough for darts.   Never used that top so I am not sure how hard it is going to be to keep the fruit flies from escaping.  

You can use your gravel as the drainage layer and for making the pond.  Using a piece or plexi will be fine but your silicone might not be ready by the weekend since the smell will be lingering.  If its GE Silicone II Window and door it might air out fast.
Lowes sells and cuts plexi at pretty good prices.

I wouldn't put a heat pad under anything.  If your room drops below 70 then put it on the side of the tank or back.  Under the tank has the possibility of causing a fracture which has occurred too often to chance for me.  Especially in a completed and established viv.  Under the tank heat also has to try and penetrate through the drainage layer and substrate to get heat into the tank.  If your tank is lifted to allow airflow under the tank then the pad under the tank would be ok if you just looking to evaporate water.

Since your tank needs to be at about 90 percent humidity all the time, misting the tank will need to be done at least twice a day or more so you'll have to monitor humidity and how fast it drops over the day.  My Mist King sprays 5 times daily and for 15 seconds each time.  Keeps my 20 long at about 92 to 87 percent humidity all day.  Note that this tank is slightly vented and in front of some pretty dry heat from the wall.

As for a light, you want a bulb that has 6500K color temp if your going to be using live plants.  Zoomed and Corallife should make one to fit the top.

Oh, keep in mind that you don't want the water too deep since they are not great swimmers and should be able to walk through the deepest section.

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## Mitchgrunge93

Thank you very much Don, you've been very helpful  :Smile:  I'm happy that I can work with what I have. I'm so excited to build this thing. The reptile show sunday couldn't come any sooner T_T. I should hopefully find everything I need there. Much obliged  :Smile:  I'll keep you guys posted on how the cage and frogs are coming along as soon as I get them.

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## Mitchgrunge93

Hey, sorry to double post but I was also wondering about adding a water feature, and I was thinking a waterfall. I see this: Exo Terra Repti Flo 200 Terrarium Pump | Josh's Frogs, which looks like I just connect a hose to, but I'm confused on as how to make the waterfall itself.

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## En333

Ya I wondering about that exact one... Can you attach hose?

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## Don

You basicilly just run the hose to a log or sticking out of a background or what ever and have to flow to a spot to collect and run back to the pump.  The pump can actually be buried right into hydroballs, gravel or in a false bottom.  The big thing is that it has to be accessable for maintenance.

I also think it best to have it sectioned off from anything because any dirt in the water is going to get into the pump and the water level has to be at least above the pumps suction or intake area.

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## En333

The lady at petco said that the pump can't fit a hose? I don't know what it would be used for then lol

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## Mitchgrunge93

Ok, do I run the hose up through the gravel and substrate? Just wherever I want in the tank? Also, if I'm separating my pond from my false bottom, I figured I'd set the hose in the pond (even though it will only be about 2 or 3 inches deep), and make a divot path through the substrate that will lead it to flow back down into the pond. Thus creating the infinite loop. However, one problem I thought of with that is that the water will most-likely not flow, but just soak into the soil and saturate it? How would I get it to follow the path I want?


EDIT: Nice to see a fellow person who is from the Live Free or Die state. I lived in NH for years  :Smile:  I miss it. I lived in Manchester.

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## Don

You can run the hose however you want but when ever you need to get to the pump it all comes out.  The hose is only about a foot long and the pump is not designed to push the water far.
Any water that flows over just substrate will soak through and drain the area below.

You can design a waterway with something like Great Stuff Foam (made outside the tank) or a gravel path with a liner under it and then have the hose come to the top of that.
If you have a foam background you can install that on the side with the water feature and have the hose come out the back of that like a drip wall.
I had a piece of cork round and had the hose come up through that and then the water flowed down the outside of the cork.  Looked cool but the pump started to hum loud over time.  Gave up on it.

The Zoo Med Waterfall Kit comes with a pump and one piece of about 12 to 14 inch long hose.  They usually stay pretty quiet just my luck on getting a noisy one.   I would look though build journals and see what others have done.


As for NH, snow today and unusually mild winter so far.

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## Mitchgrunge93

> You can run the hose however you want but when ever you need to get to the pump it all comes out.  The hose is only about a foot long and the pump is not designed to push the water far.
> Any water that flows over just substrate will soak through and drain the area below.
> 
> You can design a waterway with something like Great Stuff Foam (made outside the tank) or a gravel path with a liner under it and then have the hose come to the top of that.
> If you have a foam background you can install that on the side with the water feature and have the hose come out the back of that like a drip wall.
> I had a piece of cork round and had the hose come up through that and then the water flowed down the outside of the cork.  Looked cool but the pump started to hum loud over time.  Gave up on it.
> 
> The Zoo Med Waterfall Kit comes with a pump and one piece of about 12 to 14 inch long hose.  They usually stay pretty quiet just my luck on getting a noisy one.   I would look though build journals and see what others have done.
> 
> ...




Ok, so the tank is coming along. I've got Great Stuff going for the background, it's coming along nicely. I'm waiting to cover it up with clear silicone and dirt, because I don't know where to find black silicone. I'm going to carve out spots for potted plants to fit in. I'll have a bromeliad planted in the soil somewhere. I'll post pictures soon. I'm looking to spray paint it to cover it with a base color for spots that the dirt that I stick to it doesn't cover. I have Krylon Indoor/Outdoor spray paint, however I've heard that Krylon Fusion is the only spray paint is the right one to use. I get my frogs tomorrow, I'm hoping my cage is ready in time! Otherwise, what should I do? Keep them in a big tupperware with moisture and holes poked in the top? I need any paint I spray to have at least a few hours to dry out and cure.

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## Don

Just make sure its 100 percent silicone such as GE II silicone for windows and doors and not kitchen and bath.
   Home Depot and Lowes carry GE II in multiple colors.

Put the silicone on thick and sprrad it with a rubber glove.  Areas that your accidentally get silicone on scrape of with a razor blade after drying.
Pack in the dirt/substrate tightly to the silicone and pour it on.  You can dump out and air out the excess when its all dry.

You can do touch up once dry with a little more silicone and another application of substrate.


For the new frogs, a large Tupperware with some ventilation and some wet paper towels is good.  You can also throw in some fake leaves or a cutting of something like pothos or creeping fig to let them climb on and hide under.  Fake vines will work too.

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## Mitchgrunge93

> Just make sure its 100 percent silicone such as GE II silicone for windows and doors and not kitchen and bath.
>    Home Depot and Lowes carry GE II in multiple colors.
> 
> Put the silicone on thick and sprrad it with a rubber glove.  Areas that your accidentally get silicone on scrape of with a razor blade after drying.
> Pack in the dirt/substrate tightly to the silicone and pour it on.  You can dump out and air out the excess when its all dry.
> 
> You can do touch up once dry with a little more silicone and another application of substrate.
> 
> 
> For the new frogs, a large Tupperware with some ventilation and some wet paper towels is good.  You can also throw in some fake leaves or a cutting of something like pothos or creeping fig to let them climb on and hide under.  Fake vines will work too.


Yay! I got 2 Blue Azureus at the Reptile show this morning  :Smile:  I've got them both in a larger tupperware just chilling til the silicone on my background cures all the way  :Smile:  I bought an orchid, a fern that the guy I bought it from says isn't technically a fern? Don't know about that. I can post pictures. I also bought some vine, and one plain green bromeliad. I need to know where to put them though. I was thinking about putting the "fern" and the vine in the wall via holes. How would that drain though? 

Anyway, I'm very excited and I'm hoping to have my new friends in their new home tomorrow  :Smile:

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## Mitchgrunge93

Hey guys, haven't been on in a minute. I'll be posting pictures of my viv soon  :Smile:  I'm having problems with my plants though. My Brom's leaves are curling and spotting, I'm not sure why. My fern almost died out, but has started to recover. I'm not too sure about the orchid, it doesn't look much different than when I bought it.

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## Don

Can't wait to see pics.

What lighting color temps are your bulbs and does it seem to be enough for the plants?

Is your soil draining well?

Not enough lighting and too wet of soil are the usual issues with plants.  I'm not good with orchids so I would see if they need air circulation to thrive and I do think they are supposed to do well if misted several times a day.

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