# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Breeding, Eggs, Tadpoles, etc >  Who are "The Best Dart Frog Breeders"

## Sirjohn

I wanted to start a thread for many on here including myself for the best breeders of Darts.   There are many out there, and many on here breed as well.  We read, and talk to eachother go to shows and try to find good stock, but there are always those who excell and have amazing lines, with excellent traits and habits etc..  I wanted to get peoples opinions... For example not all breeders will have the best Leucs, or the best Azureus, the best Terribilis etc... What are your opinions on the best, and be specific.   I have looked on many Dart sites and many frog sites and I have not seen one post like this, so I wanted to ask you guys.. Any one up to the challenge?  Sean Stewart? which strains are his best?  Josh? which strains are HIS best and so on... Well you get the idea.. These are only 2 and even they cannot specialize in all strains.. Having Bread Discus for well over 20 years, I know that there were guys who had the best pigeon bloods, others had amazing blue diamonds, while yet others had better cobalts, and so on... I think this would be great for everyone to know with many people chimming in... Ok, the ball is in your court...  There has to be a way to find these people and not just a name in your response.. I am sure many would love to know what hobbyists feel...Having said that, there are also many questionable strains out there, any thoughts? :Smile:

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## Carlos

I think the basic idea is good.  Sadly; accomplishing it might be a challenge due to different opinions on what are the best lines.  Also, how do we compare them?  Unless a member has bought from different suppliers and has specimens to compare in terms of health, morphology, coloration and patterns, offspring, etc; it would be impossible to rate based on pics that can't represent all traits. 

Very doable with fish or literally any animal attending shows and competitions; but quite a bit challenging for frogs  :Smile:  .

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## Sirjohn

> I think the basic idea is good.  Sadly; accomplishing it might be a challenge due to different opinions on what are the best lines.  Also, how do we compare them?  Unless a member has bought from different suppliers and has specimens to compare in terms of health, morphology, coloration and patterns, offspring, etc; it would be impossible to rate based on pics that can't represent all traits. 
> 
> Very doable with fish or literally any animal attending shows and competitions; but quite a bit challenging for frogs  .


                                                                                                                                     Carlos, thanks so very much for stepping up and giving a for reply...I took the time to read alot about this before I started my journey into the Dart Frog world, almost a year.. To busy to start a tank, and not knowing enough.  I always like to do alot of research before embarking on such a journey because of all the variables, and there are many... To establish an enclosed functinal eco system that will go for years is the challenge, and not just about spraying Good stuff onto a backround with some pots and calling it a day.  Don't get me wrong, this is great and many are not interested in a bio system, and thats fine, but there are many who experiment, and push the envelope looking for new and clever ways to re invent the wheel.. I had the pleasure of Meeting Mr Wattley in the 80's.  He was a nice guy and embraced my questions, and pointed me in the right direction and he always answered me when I had questions as busy as he must have been-We still had dial up phones then..LOL.   A true pioneer.  There is always a way to grade anything.. For example, I was looking into several varieties of Darts looking into traits, habits, size and markings.  For example, lets take Leucs wich seem to be diversified and very popular.. Banded, large spot, small spot, blue foot, green foot etc..  Understanding these are regional and others morphs or dare I say the "H" word, there are really no guides only approximations.  Genetic traits are passed down, and exploited as I have seen in this hobby as well.  I never really knew just how many people keep frogs until I started out on this journey.. Names like Sean Stewart, Zack Brinks-(who I really like), Mike Novy etc seem to stand out and their names often come up in threads, blogs and research.   With the many people into the hobby should'nt there be comparisons?  Or is everyone just happy enough to aquire a dart frog even if its been crossed to death or inbred?  The above mentioned certainly bring new blood into their lines to keep the lines fresh, but then there are the people who breed the same group over and over weakening the line.  There should be a standard as this hobby is not inexpensive..  I applaud the fact that there are many individual breeders out there and have seen many tadpole posts with references of liniage.   Would'nt it be just as prudent to have grades?  The reason I guess is mostly what you pointed out, no side by side comparisons.   What do I know anyway, I am just a newbie as far as this DF world is concerned.  But thats how everyone starts out, and there is always a good opinion from someone looking from the outside in, rather than the other way around.  I belong to most of the forums, but seem to like this one best.  Why not add a grading catagory? Size, Color genetics etc.. This is not a new hobby, as I see it started when Mr Wattley brought some over.  Again, a pioneer.  This is a guy, who collected rainwater, added tannins from different foliage in various amounts and took years to figure out what worked best to get wild ones to breed, then he worked on hundreds of recipies to feed baby discus until he stumbled onto the right formula combination.  Temp, rain seasons etc.. all came into play, not unlike Darts.  Well thats my rant, and observation.  I am curious to see how the experts on here feel about this, and Bill who has my ultimate respect thinks.. Just saying.. This thread for example, look at how many people looked at it, and only you responded... Thanks again Carlos...

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## Lynn

Here’s some excellent information:
Breeding - Doyle's Dart Den

A good breeder will able to provide you with information regarding
different blood lines and how many generations were bred.

For example:

Understory Enterprises
Dart Frogs for Sale | Understory Enterprises

Dendrobati
Home Page - Dendrobati

Shawn Harrington
https://www.facebook.com/FrogWhisperer

There are so many others. Many great / dedicated breeders.  It's best to get to the shows.
Why don't you meet with us at White Plains in April?

Bill will be there
Carlos
Heatheranne
Matt
Bruce 
Alex
and myself ; so far

http://www.frogforum.net/off-topic/2...-6-2014-a.html

Lynn

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## Sirjohn

> Heres some excellent information:
> Breeding - Doyle's Dart Den
> 
> A good breeder will able to provide you with information regarding
> different blood lines and how many generations were bred.
> 
> For example:
> 
> Understory Enterprises
> ...


I will meet you guys in April with pleasure, barring any unforeseen work stuff.   I live in Flushing, NY.  I wanted to go to the show tomorrow In White Plains, but the weather is a drag.    Lynn, I appreciate your response very much, and have already read all those with the exception of Dendrobati, which was great, thanks for that... Its not really a question I have as much as an observation.  I chose Leucs as the strain because its so diverse, as are the prices... Many posts refer to leucs but there are so many differences between them especially within this family.   I have been quoted anyplace from 40 to 250 for juev's.   I was just curious about what you guys had to say about it.  I certainly can come to my own conclusions, and am not afraid to go and visit a breeder if need be.   I have already attended many shows silently just listening, looking, soaking in information.   I have read many posts on many different forums including this one, as I love to read, and there are tons of videos as well, which I have watched over the last year..  Look at the pictures I have below as these are not new and from the internet, some have credits others don't but I am using these as comparisons.   I actually like Teribllis, ( although, I think my real favorites are the Blue footed Leucs, I don't know why)but they too have many differences within their groups. There must be many more people who have wanted to know more, but I guess  I am the one who will break the ice... Thanks so much for your response and consideration.   This is a great forum, with great people, and I am glad to be here.. Thanks...John

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## Lynn

Hi John,

That's great ! It will be very nice to meet you ! 
Add your name to the list in that thread? ( It will bump the thread  :Wink:  ) 

I live in Huntington...so it's not a bad ride , at all. I go to most of the WP shows. It's fun ! 
Alex (View Profile: tylototriton - Frog Forum )  is typically there --- he helps out at BJ's table. 
I was going to go tomorrow as well.
But it will have to wait.  
That upper portion of the Bronx River Pky is not fun if the roads are bad. 

The Huntington Hilton show never has nearly as many PDFs vendors. 
Unfortunately, it does not attract as many dart breeders.
Well --- Tim Heath is usually there. 
I think Jeremy Huff may have mentioned/expressed interest it trying a table at Huntington.
Keep an eye on the vendor list.... It would be nice for you to drive east; it's a quick hop from Flushing. 

re: the photos:
Yes, like you mentioned,  these are from different locales.
I think ........the thick banded one is a Guyana leuc. 
Their bands can vary in thickness. Sometimes there are spots in the center of their bodies.

The other 'common' ones are Venezuelan.

I'm not sure about the speckled morph? 

Mine look like photo # 6. 
I purchased mine from Tim Heath/ at a WP show in 2011. 
They are developing additional spots as they age. 
Tim Heath had nice brown leuc morphs at the last WP show ( or maybe the show before that one?....time flies )

What species are you considering?
I can give you some information for the purchase of Phyllobates terribilis if yo want ?

John Clare just got these, did you see this:   
http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...exclusive.html

I wonder if he will be breeding them.  I think they are still juveniles, though.  

TTYL, Lynn

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