# Frogs & Toads > Budgett's Frogs >  Feeder frogs?

## Brett

I was wondering, what kinds of frogs are there that are cheap and easy to breed as feeders? I'm asking because I was thinking about the time I fed a little bullfrog I found in my backyard to my Budgett frog before I knew about the risks of parasites and stuff, and he absolutely loved it. Naturally, I don't want him to catch any parasites, so what kind of frog can I use as an easy feeder?

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## jelkins

_Xenopus would be my suggestion._

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## Iratus ranunculus

Yeah, if you want the skin secretions of Xenopus to paralyze the jaw of your budgetts frog.

Using feeder frogs is a big no-no unless you are keeping an eastern hognose snake or something like that.

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## Tony

Feeder frogs would provide a more natural food source for many predatory frogs, they just have to be treated to minimize the risk of disease transmission. I strongly suspect that specialized frog eaters like _Ceratophrys cornuta_ would do much better in captivity if people fed them appropriately instead of trying to make them eat rodents.

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## Brett

What kind of frog would you recommend? Should I try breeding Xenopus spp. like Justin suggested?

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## Tony

I don't keep any frog eaters, but if I did I would just go with whatever is seasonally available, green frogs, pig frogs, bullfrogs, green tree frogs, etc., quarantine as any other new WC and then feed them off when they have a clean bill of health. I don't know the suitability of Xenopus as a feeder, but they would probably be the easiest to culture if they were a good choice.

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## Iratus ranunculus

> Feeder frogs would provide a more natural food source for many predatory frogs, they just have to be treated to minimize the risk of disease transmission. I strongly suspect that specialized frog eaters like _Ceratophrys cornuta_ would do much better in captivity if people fed them appropriately instead of trying to make them eat rodents.


I will grant this.  However there are massive technical difficulties with actually doing it.  Namely, freshwater parasites can encyst and resist freezing, the only method that can really be used to combat parasites in feeders. There is also the problem of breeding amphibians in captivity.  Sure, you can do it with hormone treatments, but that is beyond the reach of hobbyists.  




> I don't keep any frog eaters, but if I did I would just go with whatever is seasonally available, green frogs, pig frogs, bullfrogs, green tree frogs, etc., quarantine as any other new WC and then feed them off when they have a clean bill of health. I don't know the suitability of Xenopus as a feeder, but they would probably be the easiest to culture if they were a good choice.


I will use large texts for this.

XENOPUS MUST NOT BE USED

Their skin produces toxins which cause Oral Dyskinesias in snakes, who knows what said toxins will do to a frog.  They are also asymptomatic chytrid carriers.  To say nothing of the high parasite risk.  Bad Idea.

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## Brett

I won't use Xenopus, then. Can I breed green treefrogs? They have them regularly in stock at my local pet store.

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## Iratus ranunculus

> I won't use Xenopus, then. Can I breed green treefrogs? They have them regularly in stock at my local pet store.


No one has ever succeeded.  They are in stock due to massive commercial collection.

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## Tony

Breeding green tree frogs is very possible, just not commercially viable. It will be a lot cheaper and easier to use WC.

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## Brett

What does it mean if it's commercially viable?

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## Iratus ranunculus

> Breeding green tree frogs is very possible, just not commercially viable. It will be a lot cheaper and easier to use WC.


And we will just ignore the massive parasite problems.

Who has done it?

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## Tony

> And we will just ignore the massive parasite problems.


Are you dense or just trolling? What part of "quarantine and treat just like any other WC" is so hard for you to grasp? Or are you just a PETA kid who doesn't want to feed frogs to frogs because they're cute, and pretend that feeding a specialized frog eater rodents is humane?

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## Froog

I would listen to Iratus Ranunculas! Just saying!  :Frog Smile:

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## Tony

> What does it mean if it's commercially viable?


Green tree frogs typically wholesale for $1 or less as WC, the price of breeding and raising them is so much more that a breeder would not be able to compete financially. Same thing with firebelly toads and a few other cheap species, if it retails for under $10 chances are it will never be CB, or only rarely by a hobbyist who does it for fun and doesn't mind losing money.

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## Devonte's Phat Frogs

I feed 4 wild caught toads to my female pac at different times but i had them for about two months so yea just quartine them a lit bit of parsites wont your frog yea if people feed wild caught cornutas there natural foods then try rodents then you may be succesful in raising cornutas or you can buy bullfrog tadpoles raise them up feed them to your frogor breed your own bullfrogs

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## Iratus ranunculus

> Are you dense or just trolling? What part of "quarantine and treat just like any other WC" is so hard for you to grasp? Or are you just a PETA kid who doesn't want to feed frogs to frogs because they're cute, and pretend that feeding a specialized frog eater rodents is humane?


Neither.  Good loaded question though.  

I am an amphibian ecologist who has been keeping frogs since I was five.  Just because you quarantine an animal does not mean it is parasite free. In fact, medicating wont kill them all, neither will freezing.  This is because parasites subjected to stresses encyst, wrapping themselves in a defensive cocoon and shutting down most of their metabolism until it is safe to emerge.  Medicating frogs works because it brings the population down, giving the immune system a chance to do its thing in a case where the frog has become symptomatic due to conditions causing immuno-suppression.  This is a problem with even otherwise healthy captive frogs like wild-caught budgets frogs, because of increased cortisol levels as a result of simply being contained.  

Wild caught green tree frogs will be loaded with parasites, and even if you load them with medication (most of which requires a vet script)  you will still give your frogs parasites with every feeding.  Worse, these will be parasites the budgett's frog's immune system has no evolutionary history with, or native exposure, but which themselves are really good at parasitizing frogs..  

You should not feed them rodents either, for a variety of reasons.  Cockroaches, yes, rodents no.  But dont listen to me.  Instead, people should listen to the person who didn't know that xenopus secrets some nasty skin toxins.

Also: considering my research is on predation ON frogs and tadpoles accusing me of the whole PETA thing is... yeah... shove it.




> Green tree frogs typically wholesale for $1 or less as WC, the price of breeding and raising them is so much more that a breeder would not be able to compete financially. Same thing with firebelly toads and a few other cheap species, if it retails for under $10 chances are it will never be CB, or only rarely by a hobbyist who does it for fun and doesn't mind losing money.


Which of course justifies population-destabilizing and horrendously cruel commercial collection and importation.  Yes.  We should all support that, because everyone else is doing it, and there is no possible way that we could exert pressure within the market to encourage captive breeding.

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## Iratus ranunculus

> I feed 4 wild caught toads to my female pac at different times but i had them for about two months so yea just quartine them a lit bit of parsites wont your frog yea if people feed wild caught cornutas there natural foods then try rodents then you may be succesful in raising cornutas or you can buy bullfrog tadpoles raise them up feed them to your frogor breed your own bullfrogs


Yes... sample size of one.

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## Brett

Dang! That's pretty impressive! So basically, what you're saying is that I absolutely should not try using "feeder" frogs? If not, is there anything I could use? If I'm not mistaken, Budgett frogs are specialized frog eaters, aren't they?

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## Devonte's Phat Frogs

Most big mouthed froggs do but you could try once i fed her american toads she still alive and eating well the toads that i fed her were nice and plum provided her with alot of nutrition

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## Iratus ranunculus

> Dang! That's pretty impressive! So basically, what you're saying is that I absolutely should not try using "feeder" frogs? If not, is there anything I could use? If I'm not mistaken, Budgett frogs are specialized frog eaters, aren't they?


Dubia roaches are a good choice.  Nutritious, especially when gut-loaded.  Breeding them in huge numbers is also easy.  Tobacco Hornworms, also good. 

If you could find a frog species you could actually breed, remove the eggs as soon as they are laid, and raise them in a snail-free environment (snails being a major intermediate host for a lot of the usual parasites), you could use those.  However, using anything wild caught is a bad idea.  Some people may have not had frog deaths doing it once or twice, but it is very irresponsible.    

It is best to stick to larger insects.  Much safer.  They eat a lot of amphibians in the wild, but by no means are they obligate amphibian feeders.

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## Devonte's Phat Frogs

I did that because i wont to provide varitety of food for my frogs not just insects and mice and some budgetts and pacs wont take dusted insects i nevered dubias my parents wont allow roaches in the house but i breed mealworms and starting to breed superworms i would try it once or twice  but dont do it constantly

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## Tony

> I am an amphibian ecologist who has been keeping frogs since I was five.


Self proclaimed expert? Check. Citing expertise beginning at an absurd age? Check. Care to share what degree you hold, where you earned it, and who is employing you? 




> Just because you quarantine an animal does not mean it is parasite free. blah blah blah


 Nothing is parasite free, whether WC or CB, an "ecologist" should be aware of that. Do you feed crickets? Guess what, they typically carry pinworms. Parasites cannot be eliminated, only managed.




> But dont listen to me.  Instead, people should listen to the person who didn't know that xenopus secrets some nasty skin toxins.


I stated that I do not know whether or not _Xenopus_ are suitable. Admitting the limitations of one's knowledge is nothing to be ashamed of, and it's pretty sad that I of all people have to lecture someone on humility.




> Which of course justifies population-destabilizing and horrendously cruel commercial collection and importation.  Yes.  We should all support that, because everyone else is doing it, and there is no possible way that we could exert pressure within the market to encourage captive breeding.


Lead the charge, let's see how long you can afford to dump money into the pit of breeding $5 frogs. You may or may not be an ecologist, but you sure as hell didn't study economics if you think you can pull that off.

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## BG

I just gave my frogs garden center bullfrog tads that were in the store for 2 months and they ate dubias too.

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## Iratus ranunculus

> Self proclaimed expert? Check. Citing expertise beginning at an absurd age? Check. Care to share what degree you hold, where you earned it, and who is employing you?


B.S. (Biology) Arizona State University 2008
PhD (Quantitative biology)  University of Texas at Arlington, Attained Candidacy 2010, expected graduation in 2013

Employment: Graduate Teaching Assistant from 2008 to present.




> Nothing is parasite free, whether WC or CB, an "ecologist" should be aware of that. Do you feed crickets? Guess what, they typically carry pinworms. Parasites cannot be eliminated, only managed.


Almost every vertebrate ends up with pinworms.  You have pinworms, I have pinworms.. I guarantee that you have transmitted pinworms to your frogs by just picking them up.

Risk is not a dichotomy.  Risk is on a sliding scale. It can be reduced and balanced against benefits, never eliminated. The question here is whether or not feeding wild caught frogs to your pets is worth the benefit.  On the other hand, nutritionally superb.  On the other hand, there are huge parasite concerns no matter what you do, because wild caught frogs carry many different parasites, from pinworms to cestodes, flukes, trematodes, and nematodes nastier than their pinworm cousins.  To say nothing of microparasites like protists.  Most of which are specialized in parasitizing frogs, and most of which your captive budgetts/pacmans/african bullfrogs have no evolutionary experience with.  And no amount of quarantine can fix this, you have to pump them full of anti-parasitic drugs, and that gets expensive very fast when you consider some of them are controlled substances, and you risk ODing your pets, or inducing drug resistance in the parasites that survive to enter your pet.

Juxtaposed against this tradeoff, we have others.  Like using lab bred frogs, large insects (hornworms, cockroaches), supplementing with the occasional frozen/thawed quail dangled from forceps, or small captive fish like guppies for aquatic species. Fewer parasite concerns than frogs, and the nutrition is just as good. 

So, which is the better choice, and thus the one we are obligated to take when we have a duty of care to an animal we hold captive?  Obviously the second.





> Lead the charge, let's see how long you can afford to dump money into the pit of breeding $5 frogs. You may or may not be an ecologist, but you sure as hell didn't study economics if you think you can pull that off.


Oh, I did study economics to a far lesser extent, obviously more than you did. If you create a market for captive bred frogs through demand, refusing to pay the lower prices for wild caught animals, breeders will get the message, on a small scale at first.  Then growing as retailers get the same message, particularly after a nice little PR campaign.  There are a great many species that used to simply be imported, which are now captive bred (and not just frogs).  They are more expensive now, but the market persists, because most hobbyists, unless they want a very particular species uncommon in the trade, insist on captive bred specimens. There is definitely a place in the market for healthier, human-acclimated frogs, that do not contribute to the decline of wild populations.  Captive breeding is viable for the same reason why there is a market for fair trade coffee/sugar, clothes not made in sweatshops using child labor.  People look at something other than the price when making economic choices.  Quality and ethical priorities are major priorities for people.

Of course, there are always non-market solutions as well, such as lobbying governments to tighten restrictions on commercial collection of their native wildlife.

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## Tony

> B.S. (Biology) Arizona State University 2008
> PhD (Quantitative biology)  University of Texas at Arlington, Attained Candidacy 2010, expected graduation in 2013
> 
> Employment: Graduate Teaching Assistant from 2008 to present.


Translation: I'm not an ecologist, I'm a college student, but I like to exaggerate my qualifications to appear more credible. 

Some species are dietary specialists, and cramming unsuitable food items down their throats for our convenience does not provide the proper nutrition. Keeping a dietary specialist requires a lot of effort and dedication, and the animals deserve nothing less. Dedicated and successful king cobra keepers feed them snakes, not rats. The best savannah monitor owners feed them large numbers of arthropods, not dog food and mice. And I would be willing to bet that froggers who put in the effort to feed dietary specialists like _C. cornuta_ would see greatly increased success compared to those who try to treat them like _C. cranwelli_ and force them to eat unnatural foods. The body composition of a typical mammal, insect, and amphibian are wildly different and it is absurd to say that one can be substituted for the other with no consequences to an animal that has evolved to prey almost solely on one of those choices.

As for green tree frogs, again I say lead the charge. Start breeding them _en masse_ and make the market pay your price. I will eagerly await your results.

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## jelkins

Tony, 
This guy is an idiot and clearly talking outta his ***.  I've fed xenopus to my giant african bullfrog and to my axolotls for years with no issue.  He's not an amphibian ecologist anymore than I'm the pope. Once again I'd like to ask users on this forum to personally document a case where THEY have transmitted parasites to their frog by feeding them wild-collected species that mirror their natural diets.  Not some so-in-so told me b.s.  

I'm not talking someone going out and collecting from an urban lawn, or city dump, but an experienced keeper that is familiar with local amphibians and the conditions they live in.

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## jelkins

And btw.  Neither my African Bullfrog nor axolotls has ever become paralyzed from feeding them xenopus that I've raised from eggs purchased from Carolina Biological.  I've had my axolotls for over 8 years feeding them a variety of store bought and wild-caught food with no issues.  I've had my African Bullfrog for less than a year, but I'm also feeding it a variety of wild-caught and store bought food...No issues.

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## Devonte's Phat Frogs

Yea i fed my frog 4 wild collected toads this toads werent from the city they were caught out in the country where we dont spray pesticides or nothing like that and once i got them home they were feed treated and then two months later at different times they were fed to my frog people should try a varied of food for thee budgetts pac man pixie so your frog can reach itd maxium growth

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## jelkins

Exactly.  If you're confident in your source and aren't collecting species that are endangered then you're doing as much as any avid herp keeper can expect.

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## Devonte's Phat Frogs

I collect american toads i tthinking about breeding them where my grandma same place where collect toads from it is  a leopard frog there that i wont to feed my frog do those guys have in toxins

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## Brett

I don't think I'll use feeder frogs, even if Tony and Justin are right. I just don't want to run any risk of something happening to my frog.

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## pyxieBob

Tony did you read this? i like this, he is exactly correct abt parasites going dormant but not GONE. It dosnt take someone who is afraid of little cute frogs being eaten to see its perfectly logical to not feed them frogs. Parasites reviel them selves when the host shows any sort of stress. IE, this is why puppies and kittens are always ALWAYS born with worms, and the mothers need to be treated for worms also. The worms are dormant in the moms muscle tissue always... they are called spores. The stress of pregnancy is more than enough to bring these spores to "life" and infest the host.  Yes these frogs ARE FROG EATERS in the wild, however they are also riddled with parasites thus making their life span shorter than (in general) than captive animals w controled feeding and medication. They eat frogs as a partner in keeping the ecosystem eco. They dont eat frogs to be the dominent species or to not get parasites. I think that breeding frogs to feed could be dangerous. Budgetts would do well on earth worms and captive bred guppies, (not goldfish).


> Neither. Good loaded question though. 
> 
> I am an amphibian ecologist who has been keeping frogs since I was five. Just because you quarantine an animal does not mean it is parasite free. In fact, medicating wont kill them all, neither will freezing. This is because parasites subjected to stresses encyst, wrapping themselves in a defensive cocoon and shutting down most of their metabolism until it is safe to emerge. Medicating frogs works because it brings the population down, giving the immune system a chance to do its thing in a case where the frog has become symptomatic due to conditions causing immuno-suppression. This is a problem with even otherwise healthy captive frogs like wild-caught budgets frogs, because of increased cortisol levels as a result of simply being contained. 
> 
> Wild caught green tree frogs will be loaded with parasites, and even if you load them with medication (most of which requires a vet script) you will still give your frogs parasites with every feeding. Worse, these will be parasites the budgett's frog's immune system has no evolutionary history with, or native exposure, but which themselves are really good at parasitizing frogs.. 
> 
> You should not feed them rodents either, for a variety of reasons. Cockroaches, yes, rodents no. But dont listen to me. Instead, people should listen to the person who didn't know that xenopus secrets some nasty skin toxins.
> 
> Also: considering my research is on predation ON frogs and tadpoles accusing me of the whole PETA thing is... yeah... shove it.
> ...

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