# General Topics > Food, Feeders, Live, Frozen, Culturing, etc >  My gray tree frog doesn't trust me anymore!

## Dace

Greetings. I'm new. A couple days ago, I decided to feed my dubia roaches a spicy radish. I plucked one off of the radish and went to feed it to my smallest gray tree frog, Copper. I noticed just before he ate it that it vomited a red drop of radish juice, but by that time it was too late. I didn't think much of it, but the next day I somehow managed to give him _another_ roach that had been eating radish. After that, he refused to eat (I hand- feed them otherwise the roaches hide) and I was was worried about him- he refused to eat from my hand and only ate when I put him in a small container with a bunch of roaches. These past two days he has completely refused to eat roaches. Last night I put a ceramic bowl of roaches in the vivarium but he showed almost no interest and the other frog devoured them all. I feel like my attempts to feed him are just stressing him out. I know he's not sick because if I show him a video of a crawling ant through the glass, he leaps right at it and tries to eat it through the glass- yet he ignores actual roaches! I'm pretty sure that the mouthful of radish juice is deterring him from eating roaches or eating out of my hand- just like that experiment where they fed the toad bumblebees. The weather is too cold to find flies or moths, and he's a 1.5 inch baby and is getting skinnier already! How do I get him eating again? Will he never forgive me for the radish roach?

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## Eli

Hello and welcome to the frog forum  :Smile: !

That doesn't sound good  :Frown: . Remember, your frogs are what they eat eats and that radish obviously did not sit well. 

Have you tried feeding crickets? Maybe he will take them instead of the roaches. 

You should not be getting food from outside. They could have parasites that can be harmful or worse, fertilizers/pesticides.

You can also try earthworms that are dye and chemical free. Make sure they aren't red wrigglers as he won't thank you for those either. 

I would hold off on feeding roaches for a while. Maybe he'll forget his bad experience eventually and start taking them again. 

For future reference the best foods to feed crickets are carrots and leafy greens. You should also be dusting with calcium+vitamin d3 powder every other feeding and a multivitamin powder once a week. 

I hope your frog starts eating soon. Good luck!

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## elly

I fed one of my white's a red wriggler worm once and he never forgave me. Since then I've had to bowl-feed or put the crickets on his ledge.

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## Dace

> I fed one of my white's a red wriggler worm once and he never forgave me. Since then I've had to bowl-feed or put the crickets on his ledge.


 That's depressing. I don't know what I was thinking. I guess he may never eat out of my hand again.
no I have not tried crickets. Don't have any. I'll bet he would eat them if I did, though.
i know you people aren't big fans of feeding wild insects, but I've done it for years and my frogs are fine. No pesticides or fertilizers around here. And where are you going to get more nutrition and variety? I know my bugs pretty well and only feed species I know to be safe.
I'm gonna try putting him in a small Bare Kritter keeper for a few hours till he's calm, then throw in a bunch of really tiny roaches. Maybe he won't recognize them.

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## elly

Well he might. My frog started out skittish and not used to people ( so the worm didn't help. Yours may be more tame.

Parasites are a problem since wild crickets and grasshoppers are especially known to be carriers. However if your frog is a native wild-caught species, it may already have parasites so more might not be a problem. Or you might be a bug expert and able to find ones that don't carry large parasite loads. I don't know.

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## Dace

It was a complete failure. He wanted nothing to do with the roaches. Yet I show him a video and he goes nuts trying to catch the digital ant. This is actually really interesting though because it shows me that frogs are more aware than I thought. I used to think they attack anything that moves and spit it out if it's nasty, but apparently he can recognize species.

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## Dace

Ok... I believe he ate 2 crickets tonight. unless I'm really bad at counting.

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## Xavier

That's good! At least he ate something!

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## Dace

Well, tonight he attacked his crickets quite viciously! He's almost back to his old self.

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## Dace

One thing I left out is that he has occasionally been acting restless at the front of the tank- trying to push his way through the glass and pacing back and forth. Which is what he's doing right now. When he does it, he ignores food. The enclosure is a 10 gallon tank with two frogs but they're both juveniles. That kind of worries me and I don't know if it started before or after the radish roach incident because I wasn't watching him so closely then. Any idea what might be causing this?

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## Dace

These past two nights he didn't do it and ate, but tonight he's doing it again. There's a trench at the front of the tank where he's been pacing...

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## Dace

It's really getting quite alarming now... Here's a picture:
Copper With His 'trench' Photo by Dace667 | Photobucket
Hes been spending most of his time on the floor recently, and I have no idea if he's been eating his crickets... I'm really worried now. I removed the other frog and the crickets appear to disappear, but he also seems disinterested when they walk past him. Even when he's not pacing.

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## Cris

It sounds like it might be time to upgrade their tank. Do you have any branches in there for them to climb on? 

I would recommend trying bowl feeding so you can at least tell if he is eating or not. That would also prevent the bugs from finding hiding places to your frog from ingesting substrate when he grabs the. Speaking of which, that moss in your tank can be an impaction risk if swallowed.

Also, have you gotten a fecal test? With wild caught feeders and a lack of appetite I would be concerned about him having parasites. I would get the fecal do e before upgrading the tank, so that you can treat them first and not have to disinfect the whole new setup.

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## Dace

He's only about an inch long. The tank is a ten gallon and the other frogs (who are also now in a ten gallon) aren't behaving like him even though they're larger than him.
although I do use wild caught feeders in the summer, he hasn't eaten any since October and the problem just started recently.
there is a feeding bowl, it currently has both dubias and crickets in it. But he seems to ignore stuff in the bowl thus far.
iv'e since removed the moss. It clung to the substrate pretty tight and wasn't such a risk until he dug it up.
i highly doubt that I could just walk into a veterinary office, even an exotic one, and ask them to check this tiny wild frog for parasites. They'd probably just laugh.
since I took that picture he stopped pacing and is now resting on a branch. I showed an insect video but he was disinterested.

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## Cris

> i highly doubt that I could just walk into a veterinary office, even an exotic one, and ask them to check this tiny wild frog for parasites. They'd probably just laugh.


I'm not sure why you think this, but it's at least worth calling local vets to ask. It's a simple fecal float test just like they'd do for dogs or cats.

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## Dace

I gave him a honey bath today. It sort of perked him up. I did a really thorough search of the enclosure for feces and found none, so I'm worried he's not eating even though the crickets are disappearing.

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## Paul

If he is not eating and the crickets are disappearing than where are the crickets going? Starting to feel like we are being trolled.

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## Dace

I mean the crickets loose in his enclosure. He might be eating them, they might be hiding.

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## Dace

Ok- so here's some pictures showing how he's been losing weight over time. March 7th- back when he ate a dubia every day out of my hand. He's the smaller frog:http://s356.photobucket.com/user/Dac...tml?sort=3&o=2
More in a minute

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## Dace

March 28- a few days after he stopped accepting dubias, before I got him crickets. (I think )

http://s356.photobucket.com/user/Dac...t.jpg.html?o=1

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## Dace

Today. These past few days he's been spending an awful lot of time sitting on the substrate, dark brown in color. 

http://s356.photobucket.com/user/Dac...tml?sort=3&o=0

i haven't the slightest whether he's eating or not.

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## Dace

Double post.

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## Dace

And finally, just a minute ago I noticed this object next to him on a branch. Legitimate frog poo, or just the result of some swallowed substrate?
http://s356.photobucket.com/user/Dac...b3m2j.jpg.html

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## Dace

There's been a large cricket with the run of the viv overnight which he showed no interest in. Then, this morning, he pounces on and eats it right when I walk into the room! So he is eating!

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## victorsgrace

Good you saw him eat something!  :Smile: 

I'm no expert on frogs, since I only keep toads, but one of my Bufos used to do the pacing and they do it everytime their tank substrate is changed (every three-four weeks). To me it indicates stress.

I gave my guys a larger enclosure, since they'd grown, and plantes two large ferns, got two low ceramic caves, soft rocks, succulent plants and generally do alot to maintain an enclosure that's as natural as possible, with numerous amounts of choices for hiding/burrowing.

I'd check how he's interacting with the other two frogs, especially if they are bigger than him: Are they food agressive? Is he stressed out by them? If they are bigger than him, that in itself can be intimidating, since most frogs and toads eat offspring of their own species. And if they are food agressive - and there's two of them, he might be too stressed to go to the bowl, if they're there first.

Otherwise I'd leave him alone for now, to give him a chance to cool down. Check if your terrarium is placed in a highly trafficed area where he might feel too exposed.

I don't suspect a troll b'cause the crickets are dissappearing, but he's loosing weight. Before I was introduced to the feeder bowl method for crickets, I thought my two Bufos ate ALOT of crickets. Until I found a literal night club under their water bowl 8.l and in their plant.

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## Dace

The other frog that normally shares his enclosure has been moved in with my third frog, who (formerly) had his own enclosure. I think its stress as well, but I don't know what might be stressing him. One thing that happened recently was that I noticed the plants were dying. I removed the sheet of moss covering the surface and discovered that the substrate was bone dry. I removed the plants and moss, stirred up the substrate, soaked with a spray bottle till it was moist again, and added new plants. But he started pacing and refusing food well after this happened and the other frog didn't seem affected. I might try moving the enclosure- and if that doesn't work I'll move the other frogs to his enclosure and place him in theirs.  Yesterday he ate two millipedes (relax not the cyanide kind), and today he devoured a mayfly. But he still ignores roaches.

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## Dace

YES! VICTORY! He just ate a small moth from my fingers. :Smile:

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## victorsgrace

Okay. How do you care for them? Do you follow a careguide?

Look, I think you should just let him calm down. If you move his enclosure, give him rest. Don't try to hand feed him - just leave some food in a bowl. If his enclosure is in good order, pr. a good careguide for your frog species, just leave some food in a bowl around his normal feeding hours and leave him be for a week or so.

If he is this stressed, moving him around, staring at him while he's feeding, picking him up, rummaging around the tank, moving him to a new tank - you'll stress him outta his mind. One thing I know from toads: A stressed out animal can leave to weakened immune system, which can lead to diseases that're hard to heal and handle - without stressing him further.

So..  :Smile:  I'd recommend just checking his surroundings pr. a good careguide, move the tank if you have to and then absolutely ignore him, except for feeding. Moving him into a totally new tank where he doesn't recognize anything and his preferred area is gone does not sound like a good idea right now.

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Bruce

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## Dace

I have been trying my best not to stress him... Although it's tough not to stare at him when he's pacing. I've decided not to move him or his cage. Frankly I don't think hand feeding is a source of stress- I just wait till he's sleeping on a branch and put the food item an inch in front of him and see if he responds. I don't pick my frogs up and shove food in their face when they don't want it or anything like that...
oh, oh, and how do I care for them... Lessee... Standard 10 gallon tank. Not tall but I make good use of space, I have branches wedged all the way at the top, where the frogs usually sleep. I have a couple inches of cocofiber substrate with a stone drainage layer beneath. There's plenty of live plants (or there will be soon in The little guy's tank, I just redid a few months ago and they haven't filled the substrate with roots quite yet) and springtails so I don't change the substrate often. There's never a foul smell and my oldest frog has lived under my care for 6 years. I generally mist every day, but I let the vivs dry out once in a while for sanitary reasons. No water bowl. Bear in mind that they live high in trees, sure the occasional lucky gray has a water filled tree hole but generally they live high and dry. I have seen grays resting out in the open in full sun on hot, dry sunny days several feet above the ground, no water or even moisture in sight. I used to feed my frogs every other day, but they seemed skinnier and their hips protruded more than those I see in pictures, so now I feed me daily and they're looking fatter and happier.

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## Dace

Heheheh...He just ate a roach out of my hand...

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## Cris

You don't have a water bowl in your tank? I would strongly advise adding one. In the wild there are obviously no bowls exactly, but they have other options for getting water (dew and rainwater collects in leaves and crevices in branches even high up in the trees, or they can come down to the ponds or puddles). Especially if you are letting your tank "dry out" sometimes, they need a source of water available while the humidity is low (although you should also try to keep humidity relatively stable if possible).

in captivity our frogs depend on us for everything, so it is important to provide them with conditions as close to ideal as we can. In the wild, frogs can move to another location if they don't have the right humidity/temp/water, but in a 10 gallon tank they can't just find somewhere else with different resources.

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Snappi13

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## Dace

Ok they have water bowls now... But I still don't believe it's necessary.

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## Dace

I did listen to their suggestion. They have water bowls now...

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## victorsgrace

It is necessary. They drink through their skin. What you saw in the wild, was an animal sitting there, at that moment, with opportunity to move to another place if needing water or shade.

Also you shouldn't dry out your tank... Amphibians need moisture and it serves no hygienal purpose, but can invite mites and what not to the feces. Please follow the careguide apropriate for your animal.

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ColleenT

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## Bruce

Hey! Just read up on this, you've been given awesome advice  :Smile:  

Here's a pic of my setup for my girl, if it'll help you with some design ideas...



I have a small water dish in there, which she likes to soak in regularly, and i mist at least once a day.  It's a simple set up, a bendy branch and a mature pothos plant, eco earth betting with springtails added to help maintain waste and tend to the pothos' roots.  Room temps are fine, my room sits around 70-75.

These are very easy treefrogs to care for  :Smile:  you can handfeed occasionally, but they are right about stress, I don't touch her unless I need to for that reason.  Stress can be a serious issue with delicate frogs.  

My opinion, if she is eating and soaking and the temps are right, just give her time to adjust and relax, she'll be fine.

I might have missed this, but are you supplimenting?  If so what are you using and how often?

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## Dace

I don't fully agree with the necessity for water bowls for this particular species, but they have water bowls now and I'm not going to argue. But I can assure you that my frogs were not dehydrated before...
I dust their roaches with calcium and vitamin powder in the winter every few weeks, in the summer they get a wide variety of wild caught insects.
And I think the little guy is getting better. His colors are lighter and he's eating more. Hopefully he'll stop pacing.

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## Cris

Since frogforum's care sheets appear to be down right now, here is a link to a gray tree frog care sheet: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forum...olor-grey.html

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## Dace

That's basically identical to a care sheet for a whites or green tree frog...
Gray tree frogs are not as sensitive to temperature and humidity as tropical tree frogs. A water bowl is more of a luxury than a necessity. And it's a luxury that needs to be cleaned and changed every day, or it will become a breeding site for disease. In the wild they most likely get their water from rain and morning dew. If they get too dry, they bury themselves in moist soil.
My frogs get all the moisture they need (and probably more than they need) from being sprayed with water daily. They never bury themselves.
I've seen gray tree frogs not only resting on trees out in the open on dry days, but also once on a concrete building surrounded on all sides by sun- baked pavement. These things are probably more tolerant of heat and dryness than some reptiles...

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## Dace

We'll, I'd have to say he's just about made a full recovery from whatever was up with him. He stopped pacing, his colors are beautiful, and his appetite is back to normal. Still won't regularly eat roaches, but that won't be a problem till next winter.

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## Dace

I've got the little guy back on roaches, but he isn't the problem now. My adult male hasn't eaten for 3 days. Other than that he's behaving quite normal, actually calling quite a bit, and I feel like his lack of appetite might be linked to the unseasonably cold weather we've been having. I gave him a honey bath yesterday but that did not have any appreciable effect.

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## Amy

Dace, I have one male that will go a week without eating during cooler temps.  This winter, I actually put a heat lamp on to help keep his appetite up a bit even though they can survive easily in the cooler temps. He never goes long enough to lose noticeable weight though.  The girls will eat as much as you put in front of them, but the males tend to only eat until they're full.  They also eat less if they're stressed, I'd skip the honey baths unless you notice signs of illness.  Taking him out to bath him might make him less apt to eat.  If the feeders are a little bigger than they should be, it'll take time for them to digest.

Also, it's absolutely necessary to have a water bowl with greys.  In the wild, you will find them coming down from trees to soak.  I tend to see them on bird baths and other places to get a nice soak going.  They prefer to use their water bowls as a toilet also.  I have a decent size water area in my grey tank that they will actually swim through in the evenings.

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ColleenT

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## Dace

That makes sense... This weekend, when temps were approaching the 80's, I fed him a rather large earthworm in addition to his normal roaches right before a storm came and temperatures dropped to the 40's at night, no wonder he's not eating.
in case you didn't notice, I have in fact added water bowls to both frog enclosures. Only the adult male in question appears to use it, but generally it's when he's calling. The juveniles, on the other hand, I have seen no evidence of them ever setting foot in their. No poop or even dirt tracked through it. One time I opened the lid and spooked one into jumping. This was at night after a misting. He landed in the water bowl and scrambled out like a cat.do you have any grays that enjoy swimming, that aren't breeding adults?

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## Amy

Yes, I see that you added the bowls, I just wanted you to understand that they're absolutely necessary.  Even if they don't take the time to soak, it still helps add/maintain humidity in the tank and gives the option should the humidity drop for some reason.  I can't really recall whether or not Atlas (male) used his water dish as a juvenile, but Paddy (female) did regularly and still does.  None of them are cycled to breed and all 3 still use it regularly, especially after a big meal.  My old frog (m, Silvermist, recently passed away due to old age) used to sit in it more often than out of it!  He really loved it!

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## Dace

Ugh... Actually there is something wrong with him. He did start eating again after the temperatures rose, but he would only eat one feeder at a time. Then he stopped accepting dubias and would only take moths, then he stopped accepting moths from my fingers and would only eat them loose in his cage. Now he's not eating at all. I saw him shedding and tried gently pushing a de- appendaged crane fly into his open mouth but he spat it out. He isn't sitting on the ground or anything, but he is sitting on the glass during the day more than usual and his colors aren't their best. He has been calling a lot and doesn't seem to be lethargic.
EDIT
also I found poop today, presumably from the moths he ate 2< days ago.

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## Dace

Would a honey bath be a good idea or is it not worth the stress it'll cause him?

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## victorsgrace

De-stress him (!) and take him by a vet.

If all is fine with the vet, leave him be.

They don't feed while molding and force feeding is always super stressfull...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## privet01

Is this the same frog you originally wrote about in March?  If so, it might be you that's stressing it out so much.  Leave it alone.  It'll eat when it wants to.  Just ensure food and water is available and the viv habitat suitable.

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## Dace

No, this is not the same frog! They original frog I started this thread about has recovered completely and is now my best eater, in fact he's doubled in size since march.
I started a new thread about this frog.

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## Dace

> De-stress him (!) and take him by a vet.
> 
> If all is fine with the vet, leave him be.
> 
> They don't feed while molding and force feeding is always super stressfull...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


how exactly does one "de- stress" a frog? Do you mean just leave him alone?

what do you mean, "molding"?

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## ColleenT

> how exactly does one "de- stress" a frog? Do you mean just leave him alone?
> 
> what do you mean, "molding"?


To de-stress, you turn off all lights, cover the tank so it's dark for a few days and he meant stop HOLDing the frog.

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Cliygh and Mia 2, Crispy42

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## Dace

I dont handle him...

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## Cory

Im pretty sure he meant they don't eat while shedding(molting), and he said this because when you said you tried to feed while he was in shed and he spit it out. They will have no interest in food while in the middle of this process, heck my pacman wont even look at food while he is shedding. I know this because I went to feed him one night and couldn't figure out why he wouldn't eat then I noticed what he was doing so I stopped. All you are doing by trying to make him eat while in shed is really stressing him out, and you have to remember they ingest the excess skin so it probably wouldn't be the best time to force feed not knowing what is already half way down. You wouldn't want the poor guy to vomit or even choke, if he isn't eating a lot you really don't want him to vomit because then he is going to throw up the little bit of food he does eat.

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Crispy42

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## Dace

Ok. I only tried that once, figured it was worth a shot because someone had success feeding a sick giant waxy monkey frog that way.

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