# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  Mutant questions?

## herpetolocrazy

Hey guys, I've heard that the only way to get mutant pacmans is to breed a blue with a blue...but is this true? Is it really just a gamble, kind of like crested geckos?  I have a strawberry and a samurai phase 2 blue cranwelli and would love to get some sort of odd morph or mutant out of them.  Is this possible?  Thanks in advance.  :Embarrassment:

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## Carlos

What do you refer as a mutant Pacman?  If it's other than normal green/brown color variations; there is very limited information available.  Although not a breeder; from what I've read, there is not a dominant/recessive gene play; but more of a mixed output when crossing colors. 

 For example from a male albino and a normal green female cross, the published results were: browns (light & dark); greens (all shades); and albinos ( pink, red, gold & green).  For pics see: PACMAN FROGLETTS 2010 Photos by JNJIvoryReptiles | Photobucket.  Obviously something else other than dominant/recessive genetics is going on; maybe a mix of incomplete dominance, co-dominance, or multiple gene interaction.

It's my experience (and imagine it's same with frogs) that hybrid fish breeders are very protective of their experience based knowledge.  What business person would not protect their intellectual property?  Obviously, the sad result of that conduct to others, is that the information is not readily available as scientific published articles are.  Maybe you get lucky and experienced breeders in forum give their insight to your questions.  Good luck  :Frog Smile:  !

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## mikesfrogs

These are mutants

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## Locascio

Hey mike thos are from a samuri x sumuri breeding?

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## mikesfrogs

Yes

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## Carlos

> These are mutants...


Thanks Mike  :Frog Smile:  !  Got the idea... and personally don't find them as attractive as non-mutants.  Imagine some people will find them unique and like them... or do breeders tend to cull those?

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## MatthewM1

> Imagine some people will find them unique and like them... or do breeders tend to cull those?


Those are the ones that sell for the big bucks actually

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Mentat

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## mikesfrogs

Only a few have frogs genetically able to produce mutants. I have a male here that does produce them. Its very rare 

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## Raya

What is the difference between a color morph and the mutants? I mean, I see a big difference in colors and pattern (seems really random with mutants?) but how do they differ geneticly?

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## mikesfrogs

They change color. I've had ones start out as brown and green and they were solid pink by the time they were adults. I don't think anyother species does this

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## Caspian

My god... I'd love a mutant pacman frog. Very cool colorations, in my opinion, and the whole mutant idea just sounds interesting.

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## FrogGangOrCroak

Could there be a possibility that mutants are caused by the company Samurai Genetically altering the genes/color pigments in the Samurai blues?

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## Fat Frogs

I don't beleive so.  I worked on a project with Bob Clark that involved that method and it did not turn out.  Im positive this is the result of several generations of line breeding.

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## FrogGangOrCroak

In all respect pythons and horned frogs are pretty different. If that is the case why doesn't this occur with any other morphs of horned frogs. Just the Blue phase I thought.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

I also believe they tampered with the genetics of the Sam Blue cranwelli. Lets face it. There is no blue coloring what so ever in any of the species in the Horned Frog family. It just doesn't appear on any other except the Japanese line which can also pinpoint that something is off. I mean come on! The Frog Ranch could have produced a Blue morph if in fact this is a genetic trait that already exists it would eventually appear in other cranwelli aside from only those offered in Japan. It is an unnatural color that just doesn't appear. Probably was designed after the Frog Ranch produced Albinos in order to compete with Kim.

Do I have proof of this? No, but it speaks for itself. Somewhere their genetic have been tampered with, but that doesn't mean that I don't like them. I own an adult male Sam Blue and yes the color is very appealing to the eyes, but it definitely does not look natural by any means.

Of course Nuance or Yusuki will claim them to be produced from selective breeding or that there was no genetic altering involved in their production. How they came to be will be a secret and they definitely won't let that out. Could be bad for buisness and could give any willing breeder an edge to produce F1 Sam Blues.

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## Rambo

You have no evidence supporting your opinion griff. How are we suppose to just buy what your saying? I believe nuance and yusuki are brilliant and maybe one step ahead of all of you of course he's way ahead of me. For being a moderated I'd expect a better opinion with atleast evidence supporting what your saying.

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## Locascio

> You have no evidence supporting your opinion griff. How are we suppose to just buy what your saying? I believe nuance and yusuki are brilliant and maybe one step ahead of all of you of course he's way ahead of me. For being a moderated I'd expect a better opinion with atleast evidence supporting what your saying.


Lol comon bro you really think your opinion is worth the time it was takein to type it? what have you done in the frog world that would make you think you can jump on this forum and bash a member that hase more exp than you in EVERYTHING that is frog and say something like that you sir are a fool.. i have 0 respect for you theres no telling what happens in other countrys there is diffrint regulations and you can pritty much do what ever you want so yea i belave Grif might be on to something in reguards to Genetically altering the genes/color pigments in the Samurai blues. there just no telling what could be done with enuff money and effort

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## Sherry

Grif is a very well known and trusted member on this forum. I trust anything 'they' say.  :Smile:  Please don't bash other members on the forum. I don't know what's going on lately but I have noticed a lot of hostility on this forum....

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> You have no evidence supporting your opinion griff. How are we suppose to just buy what your saying? I believe nuance and yusuki are brilliant and maybe one step ahead of all of you of course he's way ahead of me. For being a moderated I'd expect a better opinion with atleast evidence supporting what your saying.


Excuse me? Didn't I just say everything they do breeding wise is held secret. Also didn't I state that none of these species have this particular color naturally? Are you offended by my post somehow? There are no studies on this therfore there is no evidence to support what I've said. Basically it is speculation, but as I've said there are no blue Ceratophrys naturally. How many wild cranwelli has anyone seen that are blue or even have a hint of blue? Zero! Now natural selection may play a role in this, but a blue frog would be difficult to see at night and since these frogs are nocturnal there is a chance that any that may emerge naturally blue could have been found alive.

I'm not sure why you want to attack my credability. Or am I not welcome to post here by your nonexistent authority here

Lets get one thing strate. Just because I'm a moderator doesn't mean I have all the answers to everything out there nor does this mean I have access to whatever might suit your need for more information that no one here can provide nore will anyone outside of Nuance. If you ask them they will tell you it is selective breeding that produced them. In that case then any species with this nonexistent color should be able to produce a blue version/morph. Closest they have are Blue Line Ornates which I also have, but this is just a slightly teal stripe down their back and not an entire frog covered in blue. Mike Matson used to have a female which had very pronounced striping tbat was very seafoam green in appearence, but like I said it was only the stripes which most of the time fade more to green.

Stripes are another thing about the Sam Blue. THEY DON'T HAVE THEM! All cranwelli have a form of striping. 3 stripes in all usually. 2 lateral and 1 dorsal. Now I never claim to be an expert nor am I a scientist and I don't know what I may have said that sparked a personal attack on me, but might I suggest tbat if you feel that anything i said is not good enough then by all means GO FIND THE ANSWER YOURSELF! I don't have all the answers to lifes great mysteries, but I do know what I see before my eyes. 

Apparently Kim purchased a bunch of frogs from Nuance and sold them or sent them back because they had been tampered with genetically which Frog Ranch does not do.

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## Fat Frogs

Whhoooaaa!  This conversation just got heated! haha.  I do beleive that genetic testing could always be a possibility, however genetic mutations occur in nature all the time.  It may have turned out to be a once in a life time occurance for this particular mutation and that would explain why all of their frogs don't carry the gene.  If one was to spend the money to genetically enhance frogs for one mutation, why not utilize those same standards for all of their frogs?

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Whhoooaaa!  This conversation just got heated! haha.  I do beleive that genetic testing could always be a possibility, however genetic mutations occur in nature all the time.  It may have turned out to be a once in a life time occurance for this particular mutation and that would explain why all of their frogs don't carry the gene.  If one was to spend the money to genetically enhance frogs for one mutation, why not utilize those same standards for all of their frogs?


Cost or maybe it is devastating to their body and causes unwanted mutations. Or maybe it worked only once. It is also odd that only the Nuance bred frogs have the mutations from Sam Blues and Lime Green Albinos.

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## FrogGangOrCroak

Genetic altering is anything but simple or easy. For all we know the blue phases could have been caused by accident. To say they could enhance all their frogs would be a big statement and an even bigger job/price tag. I agree with Griff I mean even without supporting evidence one must think logically about how another could come up with an unnatural blue frog. My guess would be Genetic altercations.

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## mikesfrogs

I breed both frog ranch line and nuance lines.

There are positive and negatives to both lines

Samurai lines are brighter in color but production numbers are low.

Frog ranch- produce larger spawns. The color quality varies more.

Mutants randomly occur. I have produced a number of mutants. They all occur from samurai to samurai. I had one spawn that was samurai to albino. Never have I seen a mutant come from another line than nuances blues.

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## pyxieBob

> You have no evidence supporting your opinion griff. How are we suppose to just buy what your saying? I believe nuance and yusuki are brilliant and maybe one step ahead of all of you of course he's way ahead of me. For being a moderated I'd expect a better opinion with atleast evidence supporting what your saying.




Wow Rambo, you certainly showed us. I have spoken to Yusuki himself several times.  Mike knows him personally.   Have you ever heard of "hereditary Fixation" ??? ya... I thought you havnt. If you like I could actually help you sound out those big words and give you a synopsis of what they mean. Yusuki is incredibly intelligent and accomplished. Albino Burmese pythons (Amelanistic) are incredibly unnatural looking and beautiful; Bob Clark was the 1st person to produce these and sell them. However the 1st Amelanistic Burmese were created by other Burmese and discovered in the wild, and all look reasonably the same. Sam Blues produce mutants periodically because of the "Hereditary Fixation" process. Sam Blues are beautiful frogs ; Yusuki is very learned man. (Rambo that word is pronounced "LEARN-ED") But maybe people who are so quick to demand evidence should provide solid facts to support their juvenile approach to arguing that something is in fact natural before they bad mouth a very reputable Horned Frog Moderator with such a moronic approach.

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## Carlos

> ...  Please don't bash other members on the forum. I don't know what's going on lately but I have noticed a lot of hostility on this forum....


+1!  Sherry is right about hostility.  This topic is excellent and I have learned lots here (like what is a mutant).  Now I'm learning about Pacman lines too and would like this discussion to continue; but prefer without any personal attacks.  I know some of us crazier ones can unsettle others; but we should strive to stay on subject and avoid making it personal... just saying  :Frog Smile:  !

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Sunshine

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## Colleen/Jerrod

I was personally called out yes, but as Carlos has stated I believe this thread needs to return to its true purpose and be done so without hostility and personal attacks.

Lets remain civil everyone  :Smile: .

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## Cwcuz2112

The mutants are caused from leftover radiation from wwII .  :AR15:  :Frog Smile:  ( and i am in no way shape or form being serious )

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## AMKReptiles

ok so for what i have herd The blue coloring on the samurais is due to a vitamin deficiency. thats why when you feed them a full nutritional meal as they grow they turn light green..if you feed them Pacman food from babys  they will hold some blue/green color....again this is what ive herd dont know if true or not...

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## Locascio

> Whhoooaaa!  This conversation just got heated! haha.  I do beleive that genetic testing could always be a possibility, however genetic mutations occur in nature all the time.  It may have turned out to be a once in a life time occurance for this particular mutation and that would explain why all of their frogs don't carry the gene.  If one was to spend the money to genetically enhance frogs for one mutation, why not utilize those same standards for all of their frogs?


Thats what im saying money makes the world go round and seeing as how the exotic animal trade is a multi billion $ business WHY NOT Genetically alter animals for profit? could you amagen Genetically altering Dogs? some breeds would be worth 10-20k each because you knew what you wear buying would be pre determined. genetically, why not start with frogs? ask your self that

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## Fat Frogs

All I can say is that I myself and a couple people with deep pockets and big names in the herp industry attempted to create frogs that rivaled Nuance's, spending several hundred thousands of dollars in research on Cranwelli eggs and to no avail.  Just look at the herp industry, the more the animals are line bred over several generations the more crazy things happen.  That would also explain the smaller spawnings!  There has to be several scientific papers scattered across the internet that support the idea of eventual sterility from mass produced linear generations.  Oh yeah, Scaleless bearded dragons anyone???  lol!

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## Fat Frogs

"could you amagen Genetically altering Dogs?"


HAHA Locascio, I just re-read this post and I didn't catch this the first time!  Ahh the images that just popped in my head gave me a pretty good chuckle haha, thanks for that  :Big Grin:

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## pyxieBob

there was only one person who made it personal for NO REASON. and that person should not be welcome.

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## DeeDub

Hmm... lame thread.  Never seen you all flip the EFF out before...lol.   NOBODY TALKS TO THE GRIFFS LIKE THAT!!!!! haha.

Technically Rambo wasn't the one doing the name calling. Not agreeing with him, but ya'll ran him off before Griff could defend with a precision taint punch.

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Thanks
DW

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## mikesfrogs

Float like a butterfly................ someone else finish the line

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## Rambo

LMAO!! I didn't know griff had a whole army! I find it pretty amusing that every one flipped out. Real sensitive people on here. I thought we could debate on this thread? Whats up with people taking it up the butt when I try and question the moderator? I feel like I'm on trial for
Murder now GEEZ! lol it's cool tho all those disrespectful comments don't bother me I hope I don't get banned for questioning the moderator aha

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## DeeDub

> Float like a butterfly................ someone else finish the line
> 
> Sent from my LG-C800 using Tapatalk 2


Sink like a turd????

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Thanks
DW

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## Sherry

STING LIKE A BEE  :Bee:

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## Sherry

Ur just a big meanie Rambo!  :Fight me!:

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## Carlos

> Thats what im saying money makes the world go round and seeing as how the exotic animal trade is a multi billion $ business WHY NOT Genetically alter animals for profit? could you amagen Genetically altering Dogs? some breeds would be worth 10-20k each because you knew what you wear buying would be pre determined. genetically, why not start with frogs? ask your self that


Genetical alteration has been ongoing at least since the 1970's and probably even before that.  I tasted a mango in a Nuclear Research Station in the mid 1970's called a Mango-Pinneaple and it tasted like the later.  Someone had been messing around with mangos and had created many different trees.  

It's well known that there are "improved" versions of corn and other vegetables in the U.S.  Some of it can only be used for animal feed... but who really knows.  Genetic Industry is already producing altered animals for sale and making money out of it:  GloFishÂ® Fluorescent Fish Home Page.  I have already seen Glo Angelfish, other fish species, and even a GloCat.  If you got the money a company in U.S. will clone your dead dog or cat.  It's not going to be the same animal; but it will look like the same.

So $$ is driving all this like you state in your post.  The issues involved are many and they are complicate.  Ethics, legal, religious, scientific, moral... genetics open a pandora box the humans might loose control off.  We barely can handle the fast paced digital age; messing around with "creativity" could backfire big time on the "unselect mass."

There are countries were marketing genetically altered organisms is against the law.  In the U.S. and others it's allowed under certain controls.  I don't like it myself; but can't do nothing; but observe and share my opinion.  Sometimes watching a train wreck happen (specially after you warn them) can be amusing in a sort of sick way.  We humans can be so crazy  :Big Grin: !  I'll stop here because this subject is never-ending and will run you around in circles forever... convenient to the genetic businessmen, he, he, he.

So we can expect Glo frogs and other genetically manipulated frogs too.  Is there a "blue" gene that has been manipulated for decades into fish and later frog species?  Only their developers know what and if so, they are not saying.  A decade ago or so, an electric blue version of the Jack Dempsey revolutionized the cichild scene:
Photo from AquaSerene
They sold for more than 10X the cost of a regular JD and still command a high price.  According to the hobbyist that discovered them, they were a natural color variation that he discovered among his batches.  So why no one in decades of breeding had discovered the same?  Did other breeders saw in their batches some fry that looked different and decided to cull them?  Don't think so!  The normal behavior would have been to separate the different ones and treat them like royalty.  Interestingly, the production of EBJDs does not follow dominant/recessive gene play.  And although there are babies available for sale; very few of those make it to adulthood since the majority die when they reach puberty.  I myself have never believed this fish variation just happened "naturally."

OK, back to mutational Pacman frogs!  If there are people willing to dish out $1-5K for one of these and you knew how to produce them... would you tell others?  Would you not "stir the pot" with disinformation to maintain competitors off track and at the same time get public interest in your product?  In a way we are doing that here right now  :Frog Surprise: .  

So what I've gathered here is that mutants come from random Pacmans from Samurai Blue strain.  Questions to further the discussion are:  was the Mutant Blue parent a male or female; was the Blue parent imported straight from Japan or was it from a cross and with what; have you crossed the Blue parent with another Blue?  Think I'll stop now and go make breakfast... food... yummy  :Cool:  !

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> LMAO!! I didn't know griff had a whole army! I find it pretty amusing that every one flipped out. Real sensitive people on here. I thought we could debate on this thread? Whats up with people taking it up the butt when I try and question the moderator? I feel like I'm on trial for
> Murder now GEEZ! lol it's cool tho all those disrespectful comments don't bother me I hope I don't get banned for questioning the moderator aha


I don't lead an army. Its about respect which you have a complete disregard for. Your attack was uncalled for and you need to know when a discussion is no longer just a discussion. The moment you attack someone it is no longer a discussion. You attempt to demean and undermind my opinion because you didn't like it and because it didn't give you what you want. I don't need an army to defend myself. My reputation here stands. This is why many came to defend me without my asking. Maybe one day you will have this kind of respect, but if you continue to promote your actions here like you are then you will not.

You are allowed go question me, but do so respectfully.

I'm done with this thread. I hope you find what you seek.

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## DeeDub

Carlos
Mango was a morph of frog?  I've heard of licking them for hallucinagenic purposes, but flat out eating them?  Did the schnauzberries taste like schnauzberries?

Seriously though.  Other than the negative B.S. that got posted, I really like the content of this thread.  Pretty cool info.  You uber-brainiacs need to post more informational stuff like the stuff on genetics more often.  Very interesting stuff.  Thanks Carlos!!

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## FrogGangOrCroak

Such interesting stuff. Just wish everything wasn't a secret! It drives me crazy sometimes haha. Maybe one day we will get an answer.

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## Fat Frogs

Ohhhhh because everyone wants the frog hobby to go no where, everyone doesn't want the frog hobby to turn out like the snake hobby where thousands of people know how to breed the snakes and make tons of money creating and selling several exciting new morphs of snakes every year.   :Stick Out Tongue:  :Stick Out Tongue:  :Stick Out Tongue: !!  (My attempt at sarcasm)

Everyone and their mom knows how to breed dart frogs and we make good money selling the offspring amongst several breeders still to this day....soooooo good question Greg.  Unfortunately I'm not going to be the one to step on the big guys' toes haha, so the mystery remains  :Cool: 

I must say however, it is a sad trend as we have lost several amazing species to the hobby that could have been established had it not been for people trying to take on the industry alone in secrecy.  Anyone remember Pachymedusa Dachnicolor?  There are tons more species, but this one always burns my britches as they are a very cool species IMO.

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## Herpguy

I'm just going to jump in here very late and say that blue is a color that hardly ever occurs in nature.  This is why "naturose" and products of the same type that enhance color simply don't help blue.  How many animals besides dart frogs can you think of that are naturally blue? Probably only a few lizard species, with males in breeding coloration, that's it.  Blue is a color that is not on the natural pigmentation scale in almost every case.
Do I think "samurai blues" are genetically altered?  Probably not.  However, horned frogs produce so many offspring that it is too easy to go and pick through for unusual colors.  That is why samurai frogs have a lower yield.  In order to get a blue frog, you have to significantly lower the gene pool by breeding only blue frogs together, therefore creating a genetically weaker frog.  This is the same reason why "mutt" dogs are usually healthier than purebreeds; they have a much richer set of genetic variety to work with.

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## FrogGangOrCroak

> soooooo good question Greg.


Thank you =) I love hearing everyones opinion on the matter!



> horned frogs produce so many offspring that it is too easy to go and pick through for unusual colors.  That is why samurai frogs have a lower yield.  In order to get a blue frog, you have to significantly lower the gene pool by breeding only blue frogs together, therefore creating a genetically weaker frog.


Great opinion! The only problem I see is if this is true why is it that only Samurai has come up with this color morph and not others? I'm sure they're thousands of other breeders who have been working with this specie for a long time. Yet no one else has seem to come up with this on their own. (I could be wrong just what I've seen/read)

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## pyxieBob

> LMAO!! I didn't know griff had a whole army! I find it pretty amusing that every one flipped out. Real sensitive people on here. I thought we could debate on this thread? Whats up with people taking it up the butt when I try and question the moderator? I feel like I'm on trial for
> Murder now GEEZ! lol it's cool tho all those disrespectful comments don't bother me I hope I don't get banned for questioning the moderator aha


wow surprise surprise,  another completely tackless response.  our point is the way you did it. hence my 1st response. authority should always be questioned. there are tactful ways of doing it.

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## Rambo

Wow this thread has been dead and your still here? You must be really bored lol!

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## DeeDub

Enough of the B.S.  If any of you want to troll and measure digital phallus size and google enhanced brain power, use the PM function...or locate each other, meet up and prove who's the bigger neanderthal if that's what this is about.  While I find the online battle forum as entertaining as the next guy this one is obviously lame as h e l l.

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## Rambo

Completely agree

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## pyxieBob

actually my responses were quite warranted . hardly primitive. if you dont agree then don't give it your time to make comments. it's quite obvious that Rambo is being an instigator and deserves no response after this. I have never seen such childish and immature grammar or thoughts.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

I'm also locking this thread and I believe everyone can see why.

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