# General Topics > Food, Feeders, Live, Frozen, Culturing, etc >  alternative to crickets

## Trout hunter

Hello,

 I am wondering what feeder would be good to feed my toads in addition to crickets and nightcrawlers. my local pet stores have crickets, mealworms/superworms hornworms, butterworms, wax worms, nightcrawlers and red wigglers. Would gutloaded  super worms or mealworms be alright to give sparingly?  reason I am asking is that My leopard geckos like seem to them 




Thanks

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## Dan

Crickets really are a great staple. But if you are looking to supplement with other feeders a good choice would be black soldierfly larvae (sold as Phoenix worms). They have a near perfect calcium to phosphorus ratio and are high in nutrients. They are on the whole pretty small though and a bit pricey. Another alternative is dubia roaches. They are available in all sizes and are easy to maintain in a colony. The downside though is that they often play dead or hide and don’t instigate a predatory response the way crickets do. Wax worms are high in fat but can be offered sparingly or to beef up an individual that may need it. I don’t personally feed any worms due to the parasites they often carry. Nor do I recommend them. Super worms are ok but I only offer them to larger species.

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Larry Wardog, Trout hunter

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## Trout hunter

> Crickets really are a great staple. But if you are looking to supplement with other feeders a good choice would be black soldierfly larvae (sold as Phoenix worms). They have a near perfect calcium to phosphorus ratio and are high in nutrients. They are on the whole pretty small though and a bit pricey. Another alternative is dubia roaches. They are available in all sizes and are easy to maintain in a colony. The downside though is that they often play dead or hide and don’t instigate a predatory response the way crickets do. Wax worms are high in fat but can be offered sparingly or to beef up an individual that may need it. I don’t personally feed any worms due to the parasites they often carry. Nor do I recommend them. Super worms are ok but I only offer them to larger species.


I appreciate the reply. I will look into the feeders you posted. Waxworms or supers may work as a side dish as they could be fed to both my amphibians and my pet leopard geckos . I have been alternating my amphibian's diet between nightcrawlers and crickets as I thought that would be natural diet for my them but now I am questioning worms about parasites which (I am unsure how this would be an issue if toads readily consume nightcrawlers and other invertebrates in the wild). I may also look into tomato hornworms or butter worms , do you have any insight on them? any reply is greatly appreciated as I am learning lots from every post I make.

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## Dan

I know it seems counterintuitive when it comes to worms but I and others on the forum have had negative experiences with them as feeders. In theory it should be fine particularly since they are almost nutritionally complete but in practice I don’t recommend them. Butter worms are not bad but they are pricey. They’re actually considered an invasive species and all butterworns  are irradiated before being imported to the US to prevent them from metamorphosing. Hornworms are ok as a treat but they are mostly water. They are good for dehydrated individuals or species such as chameleons that do not drink from bowls. Anything in moderation isn’t bad and they can all be offered for variety but I’d still keep crickets as you’re primary feeder

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Larry Wardog, Trout hunter

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## Trout hunter

> I know it seems counterintuitive when it comes to worms but I and others on the forum have had negative experiences with them as feeders. In theory it should be fine particularly since they are almost nutritionally complete but in practice I don’t recommend them. Butter worms are not bad but they are pricey. They’re actually considered an invasive species and all butterworns  are irradiated before being imported to the US to prevent them from metamorphosing. Hornworms are ok as a treat but they are mostly water. They are good for dehydrated individuals or species such as chameleons that do not drink from bowls. Anything in moderation isn’t bad and they can all be offered for variety but I’d still keep crickets as you’re primary feeder


Agreed. crickets are a primary feeder as they are readily available in all pet stores in my area as well as they are easily gut loaded and provide a natural hunting oppertunity for my toads. How could you tell if nightcrawlers have past parasites to amphibians. Once mealworms or supers transform into the brown beetles are they still an option to feed?

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## AAron

> Crickets really are a great staple. But if you are looking to supplement with other feeders a good choice would be black soldierfly larvae (sold as Phoenix worms). They have a near perfect calcium to phosphorus ratio and are high in nutrients. They are on the whole pretty small though and a bit pricey. Another alternative is dubia roaches. They are available in all sizes and are easy to maintain in a colony. The downside though is that they often play dead or hide and dont instigate a predatory response the way crickets do. Wax worms are high in fat but can be offered sparingly or to beef up an individual that may need it. I dont personally feed any worms due to the parasites they often carry. Nor do I recommend them. Super worms are ok but I only offer them to larger species.


This is solid advice! Josh's Frogs has good deals on repti worms

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## AAron

I keep toads and feeders for a staple can be difficult to find. Toads have their own preference. Here are good staples but keep in mind you would have to breed some of these to breed out any parasites. 
Banded Crickets
Pet Store Crickets
Grasshoppers (wild need to breed generations before feeding)
Earwigs (some captive but would need to be bred too)
Roaches
Ants (need to be bred for a while like the others)

Side feeders
Waxworms 
Repti Worms
Butterworms
Mealworms
Isopods

Other feeders to substitute with
Hornworms
Silkworms

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Trout hunter

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## Trout hunter

all replies are greatly appreciated, I will look into these insects.

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## KP

If they're American or Fowler's Toads as are the ones in residence within my compound, they love to eat spiders. Ground-dwelling black or brown wolf and wolf-similar spiders. Another favorite they can be seen stalking every night of three seasons a year are pill bugs. You can probably have your pet supply store get you spiders but I haven't known pill bugs to be sold retail through any source. But pill bugs are easy to find and easy to gather if you have any time to do that sort of thing. I'd also say to give spotted roaches a try. I kept these two kinds of Toads for well over a decade in my grade school years and they did perfectly well on mealworms and whatever I could find for them in the back yard. You won't have any trouble at all getting them to eat many kinds of worms but the various cautions against them in this thread should be taken into consideration as they're commercialy raised and not culled by nature as they would be if gathered outdoors by you. The key is a couple of staples and as much variety in moderation as you can provide for them.

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Trout hunter

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## Dan

> If they're American or Fowler's Toads as are the ones in residence within my compound, they love to eat spiders. Ground-dwelling black or brown wolf and wolf-similar spiders. Another favorite they can be seen stalking every night of three seasons a year are pill bugs. You can probably have your pet supply store get you spiders but I haven't known pill bugs to be sold retail through any source. But pill bugs are easy to find and easy to gather if you have any time to do that sort of thing. I'd also say to give spotted roaches a try. I kept these two kinds of Toads for well over a decade in my grade school years and they did perfectly well on mealworms and whatever I could find for them in the back yard. You won't have any trouble at all getting them to eat many kinds of worms but the various cautions against them in this thread should be taken into consideration as they're commercialy raised and not culled by nature as they would be if gathered outdoors by you. The key is a couple of staples and as much variety in moderation as you can provide for them.


You can purchase live isopods from online vendors and start your own colonies to feed off of.  There are many species available. They are on the expensive side though and most take at least a few months to establish. I would however caution anyone about the risks of collecting and offering wild caught prey due to possible pesticide exposure and the risks of other possible pathogens such as herbicides, chemical fertilizers, etc.

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## Trout hunter

> If they're American or Fowler's Toads as are the ones in residence within my compound, they love to eat spiders. Ground-dwelling black or brown wolf and wolf-similar spiders. Another favorite they can be seen stalking every night of three seasons a year are pill bugs. You can probably have your pet supply store get you spiders but I haven't known pill bugs to be sold retail through any source. But pill bugs are easy to find and easy to gather if you have any time to do that sort of thing. I'd also say to give spotted roaches a try. I kept these two kinds of Toads for well over a decade in my grade school years and they did perfectly well on mealworms and whatever I could find for them in the back yard. You won't have any trouble at all getting them to eat many kinds of worms but the various cautions against them in this thread should be taken into consideration as they're commercialy raised and not culled by nature as they would be if gathered outdoors by you. The key is a couple of staples and as much variety in moderation as you can provide for them.


Would spiders or pill bugs that I find in my basement be ok if I throw them in as  I find them. If not there is a wildlife sanctuary and nature trail not too far from my house which I know has a large population of wild insects that would obviously be natural food for toads. there are lots of spiders and pillbugs living around my house but my neighbours fertilize and spray their yards with a whole lot of nasty chemicals lol.

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## KP

Yes, given your specific situation, the post cautioning you against foraged bugs is right on. I live adjacent to a large acreage wildlife sanctuary and vast acreages of wild woodlands beyond that and nobody near me does anything that would taint the wild insect population. As I stated, I have a compound in my back yard and the Gray Tree Frogs, American and Fowler's Toads, Green Frogs, Wood Frogs, Spring Peepers and the occasional Bullfrog passing through during prolonged periods of rainfall all do extremly well on what's available for prey here. 
Also, gathering them from your basement would depend upon what you have in your basement in the way of chemical agents of ANY kind and if your basement's like mine you wouldn't want your Toads eating bugs from it. 
My situation is ideal in the extreme so I think for most on this forum at least, the commercial sources are the safest path to happy, healthy critters.

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## KP

That being said, if you can harvest them from a wild area where you can confirm there are healthy, thriving populations of the same specie of Toad, which info you should be able to acquire from local wildlife management offices or educational institutions if you have one nearby, you should be able to feed your Toads well from the wild as a supplement as I do my Gray Tree Frogs.

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## KP

I forgot to mention the Red-Backed Salamanders that inhabit the compound and the area surrounding it. Our land here supports a very healthy array of wildlife which is a solid observation on which to confidently wild source my Gray Tree Frogs 3-season diet together with commercial crickets, spotted roaches and waxworms. Variety will greatly benefit your Toads.

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## Trout hunter

> I forgot to mention the Red-Backed Salamanders that inhabit the compound and the area surrounding it. Our land here supports a very healthy array of wildlife which is a solid observation on which to confidently wild source my Gray Tree Frogs 3-season diet together with commercial crickets, spotted roaches and waxworms. Variety will greatly benefit your Toads.


It sounds like a great place for amphibians populations to thrive!

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## AAron

I would not feed spiders. They are unnecessary as feeders. Yes they feed on them but the spiders can also harm the toads. 

I would advise against feeding from your basement because the insects can get into stuff that if your toads eat the insects can harm them. 

If you are going to use feeders from outside culture them so that way you have an abundance. You can use grasshoppers, ants and earwigs doing this. Make sure you breed them for generations though so anything would pass from the original wild specimens. 

Isopods can be a staple but not as long as crickets. As Dan said Repti Worms, Waxworms, Butterworms, Crickets, Mealworms, Silkworms, Hornworms are all good feeders to rotate with. 

It's up to you but for keeping captive toads field collecting isn't a good route. 

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## KP

It is. And I've been doing what I can to encourage it for a long time with great success. You can see photos of it in my albums here on Frog Forum and videos of it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEIu...8f46gZXD7Bq3FD

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## KP

Here's a quote from a good article about American Toad husbandry and the link to the full article which should give you some useful guidance:  "Toads should not be fussy eaters. Healthy toads are usually actually quite pudgy! If you are housing them correctly within the suggested temperature range, then they will accept crickets, mealworms, waxworms, earthworms or superworms of appropriate size. They usually consume anything that they can fit in their mouth. Gut-loaded crickets can make up the majority of the diet; however, variety is the spice of life, and the more you can vary a toad’s diet, the better off it will be. During warm months, catching local insects (nontoxic, of course) can provide added variety. Moths seem to be particularly relished by most toads. In the wild, they eat grubs, spiders, worms, insects, slugs, snails and other invertebrates. If your toads are wild-caught, try offering them what they eat in the wild." 

Link: http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Frog...ding-And-Care/

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## AAron

> Here's a quote from a good article about American Toad husbandry and the link to the full article which should give you some useful guidance:  "Toads should not be fussy eaters. Healthy toads are usually actually quite pudgy! If you are housing them correctly within the suggested temperature range, then they will accept crickets, mealworms, waxworms, earthworms or superworms of appropriate size. They usually consume anything that they can fit in their mouth. Gut-loaded crickets can make up the majority of the diet; however, variety is the spice of life, and the more you can vary a toads diet, the better off it will be. During warm months, catching local insects (nontoxic, of course) can provide added variety. Moths seem to be particularly relished by most toads. In the wild, they eat grubs, spiders, worms, insects, slugs, snails and other invertebrates. If your toads are wild-caught, try offering them what they eat in the wild." 
> 
> Link: http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Frog...ding-And-Care/


I do not understand what you mean by it is?

Anyways yes reptiles magazine wrote that but that's the person's preference for keeping them. Wild insects can bring parasites and shorten lifespans for frogs and toads. The benefit of using captive feeders is no parasites. 

As I said before I do not suggest using wild caught as a staple it's risky and unnecessary with how much variety is on the market for these animals. There is no real need to use wild caught. I will culture wild caught with the hopes of making them captive feeders at some point like grasshoppers but even they are unnecessary. I say this to bring caution to the person asking the question. Dan and myself have been on here for a long time and have seen many sick toads and offered help so you read where we stand. If you choose to use wild caught it's up to you. I wish you luck with whatever you decide. 

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## KP

The "It is." was in reply to Trout Hunter saying this in reply to one of my responses: "It sounds like a great place for amphibians populations to thrive!".

With regard to experience, I've got over 50 years of studying Reptiles and Amphibians academically, long-term observation and husbandry of mostly American and Fowler's Toads but also Turtles, Tortoises, Newts, Salamanders, Anoles, one Spectacled Cayman and more recently, for the past 10 years, Gray Tree Frogs (H.versicolor and H.chrysoscelis). Never had any problem with diseases, parasites, or the prey doing harm to the Toads. Their robust health and long lives were due to them having conditions and diet as close to what they would experience in the wild as can be simulated in a closed, artificial habitat minus drastic weather changes and predators and the stress they experience from living under the threat of predation. 

The only individuals (Gray Tree Frogs) I now have in captivity are mal-formed and ones of otherwise diminished survivability. The perfectly functional ones will do their kind and the environment, and by extension the human population the most good by being encouraged to propagate and expand their communities which I do with my compound, and left to be wild and occupy their ecological niche in the immediate and surrounding acreage.

When I began practicing Toad husbandry as a child, I started by feeding them mealworms almost exclusively as that was the only feeder insect available at that time in my local pet store. They started to lose interest in them after some time so I began to use a wide variety of wild-harvested insects and spiders all small enough to be food for Toads their size of course. I never hand-fed them and they had to stalk their prey so after ten years I let them go in the same acreage where I now have my compound and kept a record of their survival thereafter. They lived another 3 to 5 years depending on which one was being documented and after that I didn't see them around.

Diseases and parasites among Reptile/Amphibian populations has everything to do with environmental stressors of human origin which weaken the animals resistence to all such problems, destruction of habitat, and the tragic increase in commercial trade in baby or juvenile individuals, not feeding them a variety of wild-harvested prey.

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## AAron

> The "It is." was in reply to Trout Hunter saying this in reply to one of my responses: "It sounds like a great place for amphibians populations to thrive!".
> 
> With regard to experience, I've got over 50 years of studying Reptiles and Amphibians academically, long-term observation and husbandry of mostly American and Fowler's Toads but also Turtles, Tortoises, Newts, Salamanders, Anoles, one Spectacled Cayman and more recently, for the past 10 years, Gray Tree Frogs (H.versicolor and H.chrysoscelis). Never had any problem with diseases, parasites, or the prey doing harm to the Toads. Their robust health and long lives were due to them having conditions and diet as close to what they would experience in the wild as can be simulated in a closed, artificial habitat minus drastic weather changes and predators and the stress they experience from living under the threat of predation. 
> 
> The only individuals (Gray Tree Frogs) I now have in captivity are mal-formed and ones of otherwise diminished survivability. The perfectly functional ones will do their kind and the environment, and by extension the human population the most good by being encouraged to propagate and expand their communities which I do with my compound, and left to be wild and occupy their ecological niche in the immediate and surrounding acreage.
> 
> When I began practicing Toad husbandry as a child, I started by feeding them mealworms almost exclusively as that was the only feeder insect available at that time in my local pet store. They started to lose interest in them after some time so I began to use a wide variety of wild-harvested insects and spiders all small enough to be food for Toads their size of course. I never hand-fed them and they had to stalk their prey so after ten years I let them go in the same acreage where I now have my compound and kept a record of their survival thereafter. They lived another 3 to 5 years depending on which one was being documented and after that I didn't see them around.
> 
> Diseases and parasites among Reptile/Amphibian populations has everything to do with environmental stressors of human origin which weaken the animals resistence to all such problems, destruction of habitat, and the tragic increase in commercial trade in baby or juvenile individuals, not feeding them a variety of wild-harvested prey.


Do you have anything published?

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## Dan

KP, you have to understand that your situation is an exception though and that few of us live within walking distance of a pristine biome. I live in a heavily polluted neighborhood within the New York metro area and that is why I caution people about the risks of feeding wild prey. I’m sure that your feeding methods are sound, given your situation, and I am pleased that they have brought you success. However, I cannot in good conscience recommend wild prey as being generally acceptable to a novice.

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## Trout hunter

Thanks to everybody who contributed replies to this thread. I will continue to feed with a diet comprising of crickets and and alternating feeder of either meal, horn or butter worms. I appreciate all answers that were provided as I have learned  a lot from it. I also just want to say that i did not mean to start any sort of forum beef amongst the members I just solely wanted to know the opinions from others who have amphibians as pets.

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## KP

No, my academic studies have been elective at the university level and independent.
Academic study of nature in general is interesting and rewarding and very informative but as any field biologist will tell you there's no substitute for observation in the wild for extended periods of time especially when the specie being observed is primarilly nocturnal. At my compound I've had the benefit of what amounts to years of field observation of the many species that live here and have learned things that one wouldn't find out by academic study alone.

I don't tend to want to keep animals captive as I did as a kid and into my 30's but moving back to the compound got me back to my root studies in the local wildlife and seeing an occasional mal-formed Gray Tree Frog out of several hundred froglets made me decide to take them in and see how well they could do when they'd otherwise be snacks for a variety of predators if left to strike out with their siblings. It's been great so far and since I began upgrading the compound to maximize the initial crop of all the Amphibians here I've hand-counted over 10,000 Toadlets or as I like to call them "Microtoads" and over 1,000 Gray Tree Froglets or as I call them "Micromints" successfully launched into the area in and around the compound. Over the last few years the local population of Gray Tree Frogs that participate in the yearly spawning chorus has increased beyond what I would have though the immediate acreage could support but they have also increased in areas as far as half a mile from the compound and beyond, so they have plenty of room to expand and the rainy years have been kind to them as well.

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## KP

I haven't disagreed with that reasoning. 
My responses have been with Trout Hunter in mind and their situation from what I get from their description of it is much more similar to mine than to yours.

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## KP

If you read back through my posts you'll see I believe, where I referred to my circumstances as "extremely ideal" so that has already been established. 
In your situation the very air you and your animals breathe is far more polluted than it is here let alone the level of toxicity in the insects you might encounter so of course you should never even consider a local harvest of Amphibian prey. If it was you who had asked the original question, and you had explained your circumstances as Trout Hunter did my reply would have been specific to your needs as it was to Trout Hunter's.

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## KP

The other thing you might want to keep in mind is that both my and Trout Hunter's species are indigenous to our regions while yours are from several thousand miles outside of your region. That makes a world of difference in the survivability of any specie and what must be done for it in captivity.

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## KP

> Thanks to everybody who contributed replies to this thread. I will continue to feed with a diet comprising of crickets and and alternating feeder of either meal, horn or butter worms. I appreciate all answers that were provided as I have learned  a lot from it. I also just want to say that i did not mean to start any sort of forum beef amongst the members I just solely wanted to know the opinions from others who have amphibians as pets.


You asked a great and important question to which we each offered responses. 
No beef was started, I'm not known to anyone here and I may respond with information based upon my experience and education which may rub up against what others believe and ilicit a threat response from them. I don't fault anyone for that, least of all you for initiating a perfectly civil disagreement amongst people who all are agreed, love the critters in question. 

Take what you gleaned from it and make a beautiful, long life for your sweet Toads. :Smile:

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## AAron

> You asked a great and important question to which we each offered responses. 
> No beef was started, I'm not known to anyone here and I may respond with information based upon my experience and education which may rub up against what others believe and ilicit a threat response from them. I don't fault anyone for that, least of all you for initiating a perfectly civil disagreement amongst people who all are agreed, love the critters in question. 
> 
> Take what you gleaned from it and make a beautiful, long life for your sweet Toads.


I wasn't trying to attack you in anyway. These toads are all over my area in my woods and yard. 

I appreciate your knowledge and understanding of these animals but you also have to understand that your observations are limited to your region if you aren't observing toads and etc in other regions. 

I study toads and grays in I think 3-6 counties of PA so I see a lot of interesting things that I could observe but my knowledge would be useful on a specific region not the species as a whole. Not all toads are same in personality and some honestly I love them but some aren't so smart compared to other toads. 

Your experience is very useful and I want to let you know I have hopes someday of being a researcher and herpetologist focused on these two among others but these two specific species. I want to replenish their wild populations and further the knowledge we have on them. 

I live in an area similar to your area but like I said before myself and Dan have had to help people with toads a lot. We love doing it but we don't want to add to a possible problem down the road. Spiders really are something I thought of starting out but it's just not truly necessary to catch spiders for the toads. Some wild feeders if cultured would be good I was keeping in mind feeding down the road. 

I do not question your knowledge and understanding of these animals. I respect your input and I hope you post more. I just want to explain my reasoning and I'm in no way coming at you. As Dan said we were just thinking about someone trying this out and worst case scenario thoughts for me at least were running through my head.

It's great because Trout can look at all this and think about what he wants to do. 

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## KP

Nowhere did I suggest that you or anyone else "attacked" me. I don't feel attacked. 
I can't cite any comment on this or any other thread that could be interpreted as an attack upon me.
As I just stated in a post to Trout Hunter, we had a civil disagreement. By virtue of that civil disagreement Trout Hunter now has enough information to be confident in whatever decision they make with regard to how to best feed their Toads. I see no downside to the entire exchange on this thread.

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## Trout hunter

Hello,

I just wanted to follow up with a question that never got answered or I was able to find online but which are better : mealworms or superworms ( I would be removing the heads off super worms and tong feeding to prevent the bugs from biting the toads) and once the beetles transform into their beetles or into their pupae cocoon forms are they still edible by toads or leopard geckos

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## KP

> Hello,
> 
> I just wanted to follow up with a question that never got answered or I was able to find online but which are better : mealworms or superworms ( I would be removing the heads off super worms and tong feeding to prevent the bugs from biting the toads) and once the beetles transform into their beetles or into their pupae cocoon forms are they still edible by toads or leopard geckos


Anaxyrus americanus Toads can eat any arthropod small enough for the specific individual but where superworms are concerned, they might be too large in most cases. Also, they bite as you know. They do have the good quality of having a softer exoskeleton than mealworms. The Beetle form of the insect is best when it's still light-colored and soft but as Beetles they make a chemical defense secretion. The other downside as adults is that they'll have significantly more chitin which is harder for the Toads to digest and pass. Generally speaking, my opinion is that domesticated Toads should be fed a good variety of food arthropods but not those that can be hard to digest and pass. I see my wild Toads eating everything that crosses their path if it's the right size but they're wild and have to do what they have to do to survive.

I have no experience with Leopard Geckos but from what I've read they'll have a harder time with superworms than the Toads would.

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Trout hunter

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## AAron

I would recommend the mealworms for many reasons. 

Easy to breed
Beetles has less noxious secretion
Smaller mandibles won't necessarily damage or bite the toad


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## Trout hunter

> I would recommend the mealworms for many reasons. 
> 
> Easy to breed
> Beetles has less noxious secretion
> Smaller mandibles won't necessarily damage or bite the toad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I appreciate the reply. yeah I thought id ask if it was alright to give them the mealworms because I have been alternating their diet between the mealies and crickets and they seem to really like the mealworms. Of course they usually aren't too picky as they seem to like any bug that's capable of being eaten.

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Larry Wardog

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## KP

50 years ago I was keeping Anaxyrus americanus Toads and I had several for a little over 10 years. They thrived primarily on mealworms which at the time was the only insect available at the local pet store, and as many other arthropods as I could collect for them to eat during 3 months of the year. They lived an average of 4 years as re-introduced wild Toads in and around the compound after I released them.

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