# General Topics > Vivarium, Terrarium & Enclosure Discussion >  Well, here we go...100 gallons. Walk me through it?!

## BCollie

Hi all! My name is Adri, I just joined here. I will warn you in advanced, this post may be a bit(or very - yes, probably very) long.
A bit about myself...
I'm 19 years old, attending college, and I'm obsessed with Border Collies. I've fostered 32 of them, though I'm now fostering cats due to being in school & not having the time that foster dogs need. I own one dog, 10 chickens(with more in the incubator), and 1 snake. I live in my parents guest house. When I move off their property it'll just be my dog, snake and I - my parents will be keeping the chickens.
My dog:


My snake, just got him yesterday! He's a baby High White California King Snake.

And, his enclosure. I decided to go with fake everything. Fake plants, fake hide-outs, etc. just because it's easy. I think it still looks pretty dang good, considering the only natural things in there are wood and rock. It would look 100 times better if I hadn't used aspen shavings, but that's what most of the snake experts recommended so that's what I used  :Smile: 


Enough about me. Let's get on to what I'm here for...my 100 gallon tank.
I am big on making enclosures/habitats look pretty and natural. Here is my 100 gallon 7 months ago. Only changes since then are that the fish and plants have grown. The plants have grown A LOT. A certain type of plant reached the top of the tank, so I cut it back and replanted the trimmings, and those trimmings have reached halfway up the tank now. 



As of today, I have decided to get out of the fishkeeping hobby. I have grown tired of it, in fact grown to resent it a bit because I hate having to do water changes every week. Hauling heavy hoses around is the only way for me to do water changes, and it drives me insane. Not how I want to spend the little free time that I have now that I'm a college student.
Now, I am thinking that I want to do a vivarium for Poison Dart Frogs, or some similar looking frogs. I want frogs where I can buy enough of them that you'll always be able to see a few of them even when the rest are hiding, if that makes sense. I also want pretty frogs, of course! Colors! BUT, I am not rich, I don't think I can afford to stock a 100 gallon tank with frogs when they're 30-40+ dollars a piece. I get 40 dollars a month from my parents. I have about $100 saved up and estimate I'll get about $150-$250 from selling all my fish, plants, and FX5/6 filter. So let's put my budget at $300. NOT much, right? But, I am a penny pincher  :Wink:  I find sales, I save up, and - I'll admit it - I'm cheap. HOWEVER, I will not compromise on quality for things such as plants and whatever else I need, or the health of the animals that I buy. 
I am trading in all my fish to a local fish store this weekend, if all goes as planned. I may end up trading in my large plants but I'm trying to sell them myself so that I can get maybe $50 to put towards my new viv. I can always throw them in my 20 gallon no-maintenance shrimp tank until they're sold.
Anyways, I'm thinking out loud here.
I have a few ideas for a vivarium. All I know right now is that I want a waterfall...pothos vines, if they're safe for frogs...lots of plants, but not so many that the frogs are never seen. Tall plants in the background...and I know the frogs will be the very last thing added to the vivarium. This will be a display tank.
I have never done a vivarium before, only aquariums. This is all a bit overwhelming, esp. considering my small budget. This may be a long process simply because of the small budget...but the budget can be increased as time goes on(more "allowance" from my parents) and as I book photoshoots.
So...where do I start?!

----------


## Lija

Nice doggy and snakey! Welcome to the forums!

 Waterfalls are pain... Big kinda pain... Like monster sized pain lol but I love them!

anyhow you should start with reading this http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...ion-101-a.html 

 I would really want to keep that nice wood you have in a tank  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

Oh yes, I will definitely be keeping the two wood pieces. But hopefully adding more.
Why do you say waterfalls are a pain?
I'll go check out that link, thank you!

EDIT: OUCH!! I am looking at frogs online and it seems even the cheap ones start at $25-30  :Frog Surprise:  That takes up like my ENTIRE budget, just buying frogs...

----------


## Paul

Hi and welcome to the forum Adri!




> Where do I start


That is an excellent question lol. Well for starters you are off on the right foot. Planning, asking question, and more planning are what make building a vivarium a success. The beauty of the tank is in the eye of the beholder. Very few of us 100% like our own tanks. We see the beauty in them, but we also see the glaring flaws and we try to correct those flaws on the next build. I will cover a few points to get the ball ralling  :Smile: 

1. Waterfall - Water features should be considered an advanced tool in builds. They very rarely work as intended and often cause heartache and frustration. I do not recommend adding a water feature in tanks simply to make them more intricate and interesting to view. 

2. Decide what from you want and then read about them. Then design your tank to suit their needs. Dart frogs in general do not required a pool, pond, water bowl, or water fall. However dart frogs range from terrestrial frogs to ones that will climb and explore every inch your tank has to offer. You will want to keep that in mind when designing your tank. Some frogs do better in groups their whole life while others only do good in groups for the first 12 - 16 months and then would need to be separated (though a properly designed 100g tank might allow them to continue to be housed together.

3. Contrary to what you might think the more cover/hiding options you offer most frogs the more bold and visible they become. They will feel save out in the open knowing they are only a few hops away from a hiding spot if the need should arise. 

4. Listen to most of the advice given by the moderation team. Between us we have years and years of experience keeping all types of frogs, building all types of enclosures, and have made many many mistakes that we try to share with the members to keep them from suffering the same failures.

5. The "minimum requirements" for most frogs is 1 frog per 20 gallons of space. I say minimum because it can work but more room with less frogs typically equals happier frogs. So in your 100g tank you could put 10 in there and meet the minimum requirements, but I would say put 5 to 7 frogs in there. You would almost ensure you will see them, but not have so many they are stressing each other out. 

$300 is a modest budget, but totally doable. You may end up needing more money for plants, but as you said as time progresses you will slowly have more money to add to the build. 

If you want post some of the frogs you are interested in and I (or anyone else that wants to) can chime in on what we know about them and help you narrow your frog list down. 

Ask any and all questions, take some time to read through the Vivarium section. We have a lot of build journals over there that walk you through other peoples builds. Bill and I also put together an Vivarium 101 thread that covers some of the more common techniques used. 

Paul

----------


## BCollie

Thank you Paul for your detailed response. Considering the fact that even the "cheap" frogs seem to start at around $25-30+, I think I am mostly interested in Poison Dart Frogs. My main concerns are:
Cost
The frogs "getting along"
If I could have 10 that would be great, but it would take up my entire budget and I don't want to stress them by having too many. I can always add more as time goes on, am I correct? Or do they all need to be introduced at the same time?

Regarding waterfalls - since that is now two people who have said they're a pain, what if I were to buy a pre-made waterfull with pump, such as this one? It has mixed reviews so I'm wary, but still intrigued...very intrigued. Having a waterfall just seems like the perfect way to pull the viv together, but that's just me.  :Smile:  But, I know it's not the end of the world if I don't have one.
Amazon.com : Exo Terra Natural Waterfall with Pump - Large : Aquarium Water Pumps : Pet Supplies

Something I am curious about is tadpoles...I am sure this a total newbie question hehe...but is buying tadpoles an option? Are tadpoles hard to raise, and can they even be shipped? As I'm sure you've figured out by now, I know next to nothing about Poison Darts, or frogs in general. I do know they need high humidity.

Mostly interested in Poison Dart Frogs at the moment since many of them seem to be on the lower end of the price range for frogs. And then some are insanely high lol! But this is coming from the girl who drools over thousand dollar snakes, so you know...no judgements from me. Lol
What types of Poison Darts do best in groups? For example, ventrimaculates, leucomelas, tinctorius, etc.?? Just trying to get a general idea of what I'm looking at in terms of price and colors. I'm checking out Josh's Frogs but don't know what kinds I should be looking at. 

Of course, if you guys have suggestions for budget-friendly, colorful frogs that do well in groups I am of course open to suggestions!

----------


## Paul

Tincs do great in groups until sexual maturity than they can be aggressive towards each other. I large tank with plenty of "line of sight" breaks will help keep the aggression down as they get older.

Leucs are awesome, love to climb and do great in groups forever. They are very active and entertaining to watch. I don't personally own any (yet  :Smile:  ) but they are on my list to buy for sure.

Vents - I own vents and they are very very shy. They run to the bank of the tank if I get within a few feet of it. They are pretty frogs and I love them, but they are shy. They are also thumbnail frogs (adult size is about the size of your thumbnail) so even 10 of them in your tank would be hard to see them.

Tadpoles - The one major downside to buying tadpoles is they may not all live to be frogs and if they did you would need an entirely different setup to slowly move them into a planted tank. You are talking months of them in water, then months of the froglets in a quarantine type tank and you would need tons and tons of springtails.... I am not trying o scare you away from it, but it just opens up a whole new aspect of this that you would need to plan for.

You can add frogs as you go or start with 5 or 6 and let them breed and see what happens to fill the tank up some more. Most breeders will offer you discounts and deals when you are looking to get 4 or more. Don't be afraid to find the species and morph of the frog you want and call some breeders and say "Hey I see you have "X" frog for sale for "X" amount. I want 8. What kind of deal can you offer me?" I used nearly this same line with one breeder and got 4 frogs for the price of 3 with 2 fruit fly cultures tossed into the deal. 

Also keep an eye out for Reptile expos in your are those are great places to pick up your frogs and you will be able to save the $50 shipping fee that would accompany an online order  :Smile: 


That is another thing to start thinking about. With 5 - 10 frogs you will want to make sure you have plenty of food on hand. I always advise that once you pic the frog and have the tank nearly complete that you go ahead and buy 1 or to ff cultures and the supplies to setup your own cultures. Practice it until you feel like you have it down and can keep a good stream of food available for your frogs. It is much much cheepers to buy a couple cultures and then use those to create more and more cultures than it is to continually pay for them and the shipping fees. Most frogs will be juvenile frogs and will need Melonogaster <sp> fruit flies for the first 3 - 6 months and depending on how big their adult size is you may need to switch to Hydie fruit flies later (those are the bigger of the fruit flies). Doing your own cultures isn't hard, but take a bit of practice. Once you get near that point I will help in any way I can to get you pointed down the right path  :Smile: . 



Water fall - Those pre made waterfalls are largely garbage. I wouldn't waste your money on them. If you want a waterfall and there is no talking you out of it I will help and enlist Bill's help to get you pointed in the right direction  :Smile: 


Also in my signature is a link to my youtube channel. I have some how to videos on there and one of them is focused on fruit flies.  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

I'll tell you what...if a waterfall means I'm going to need to be doing weekly(or more frequent) water changes, count me OUT. I'm so tired of dragging hoses around. I cannot wait to tear down this tank and start fresh. 
Here's some froggies I'm interested in:
Phyllobates vittatus | Josh's Frogs
Dendrobates leucomelas '1995 Import' | Josh's Frogs

Can different types of frogs, say the two above, be kept together? Or is that a no-no?

Oh how I wish these babies were good in groups. They are strikingly beautiful.  :Frown:  But I don't want to risk them hurting each other.
Dendrobates tinctorius 'Azureus'

I'll have to see when the next local reptile expo is. I'll have to travel at most 3 hours because I live in a tiny town(10k people). Closest real "city" is 100k people. No reptile expos here lol

Sigh, this is all very overwhelming! I am getting a headache lol.

----------


## BCollie

A couple questions indirectly related to frogs. I know they need humidity from 80?%-100%
I do not want to be misting down the enclosure every day. Seriously, I did it with my gecko and it's a pain. I want a fogger, or a mister, or something...Which is better? I am looking at Amazon.com : Exo Terra Monsoon RS400 Rainfall System : Pet Habitat Decor : Pet Supplies
and also
Amazon.com : Alpine The Fogger : Pond Foggers : Pet Supplies
Any other suggestions would be great if neither of these are recommended. Just need something to keep the humidity up where it needs to be!

----------


## Lija

Ok first of all regarding a budget, please correct me my US friends, I may be off in costs.
you need to be realistic here. You have a very big tank that equal big $, especially since it is your first rank and mistakes will probably be made. Frogs themselves will be just a small fraction of costs. On the other hand if you take your time, plan carefully $ and workload you can make a killer vivarium that we all be drooling about lol

waterfalls are pain, my first tank had one, im redoing it right now. The problem with these is maintenance, you don't need to replace the water in a tank of your size with darts, but you will need to clean the tubes ( once in 1-2 months), you will need to add water once in a while. The thing is that water usually goes where it wants to, but not always where you want it to, so you need a back up plan. My back up plan with my first tank was to rip everything apart that im happily doing tight now lol

 So $, Lets see:
great stuff background.... You will probably need....5-6 Cans (?) or more, especially if you do waterfall. So here are 40-50$ right there.
whatever you choose to cover that up, 40$
wood, you have some, you can find something suitable outside probably too.
egg crate, 8$?
ABG mix.... No idea how much you need, I'd think a lot, so 30-50$?
plants..... Oh boy... That part is gonna be sucking money like there is no tomorrow.
light - you can probably use the same as you used for your fish tank
you need a lid - no idea, Paul or Bill are go to people on that, but I'd think 10-20-30$.

........ Pump, tubing......etc......


 And yes, you can get monsoon, but you be better off with mistking, both in a same price range, but the latter is way better. Add 100$ to your budget  :Smile:

----------


## bill

If I am reading this correctly, you want to build a 100g tank, with live plants, with an automatic misting system so you can keep maintenance down, for a budget of $300, including the frogs? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that is not going to happen. It's just not possible. The misting system that you would need for that size tank alone will eat most of your budget. The monsoon is fine for small vivaria, but for 100g, you are going to need something along the lines of http://www.mistking.com/ultimate-misting-system.html with an added head. An ultrasonic fogger will be useless in that size tank unless you are only using it for aesthetics. 

My suggestion? Stick with the fish for now and save, save, save.  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## Lija

Bill, what budget do you think is realistic for that size of the tank without automatic misting system and frogs, but with waterfall and background?
 I'm thinking 500-600$ , am I off?

----------


## LisaGarcia

Let's see what I can offer. I have the 36x18x36 exo terra. I will need 112$ in abg mix alone. and another 50-75 in dried leaves. The external filter pump for the water system is 100$ the mistking will run me another 150-200 (still haven't nailed that one down yet). The egg crate cost 24$ (Bought 2 of them) $12 in PVC pipes, 20 for a pipe cutter. I am figuring $200 for plants. I still have to buy lights. 60 for the lamp and 30$x 4 for led's. (Yes, I am going all out) Also will need heat so there is even more. Probably $50-60 for great stuff. Try finding EVERYTHING you are going to use, price out EVERYTHING and then re-budget. $300 is a great start but probably won't get you to the end. 

I am figuring a grand or more (including the tank)by the time it's completely finished and Frogs are out of quarantine and happy.  You can do it but it is going to take a while. You will need to plan on spending more money. UNLESS you happen to have a lot of the stuff laying around.  

Good luck. Don't get discouraged due to the money and give up. Just know you have some more planning and saving up to do.

----------


## bill

> Bill, what budget do you think is realistic for that size of the tank without automatic misting system and frogs, but with waterfall and background?
>  I'm thinking 500-600$ , am I off?


Minus frogs, but including a background and  larger water feature. Yeah, about $600, if using plants from a big box store. If you want to go with exotics, tack on another $200-$300


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## bill

Now here's the scary part, since it is a first build, and a big one at that, I would include another 50% of the budget for mistakes. There will be errors and issues that will probably need to be redone. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## BCollie

> If I am reading this correctly, you want to build a 100g tank, with live plants, with an automatic misting system so you can keep maintenance down, for a budget of $300, including the frogs? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that is not going to happen. It's just not possible. The misting system that you would need for that size tank alone will eat most of your budget. The monsoon is fine for small vivaria, but for 100g, you are going to need something along the lines of MistKing Misting Systems by Jungle Hobbies Ltd with an added head. An ultrasonic fogger will be useless in that size tank unless you are only using it for aesthetics. 
> 
> My suggestion? Stick with the fish for now and save, save, save. 
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


Lol you are not going to be able to convince me to stick with fish, I am so DONE hauling hoses around! I'm trading them into the fish store this week, throwing the live plants in my no-maintenance 20 gallon, and then bleaching the tank, rising it out(fill it up with water and add a TON of Seachem Prime, which neutralizes bleach) then draining the tank. May fill and drain it twice just to be sure all the bleach is gone.
Like I said, I know this will be a slow process because of my budget. But I am actively trying to book photoshoots for $50-$100 each so the budget should be raised soon. If I can manage to sell the plants, add an extra $50 to the budget. If I get what I want for the filter, add another $50. The $300 is underestimating because I think that's always the safest way to go about things.
I do know that I want an automatic misting or fogging system, or something to keep the humidity up. BUT, that can probably wait until I've booked a photoshoot or two.

I plan on sticking with budget-friendly plants, I don't plan on spending $20+ per plant. And I know from fish-keeping that letting plants grow in goes a long way! I do one of the most expensive items already - a nice light. AND just for fun, it's a day light with a switch for night lights. It is considered medium-light in fishkeeping. It's a Fuge Ray if I am remembering correctly. I also have the tank/stand/canopy already, which saves me several hundred dollars. I can sell the AquaClear 110 that I was planning on keeping as a back-up filter for maybe $20-$30.
As I said before, I am aware that this is going to be a slow progress. I need to learn patience, so this will be good for me. I don't expect to have it all set up and running in just a few weeks. I know this will probably take months, and I am prepared for that. The budget of $300 is only the money I have to start with, _not_ my entire budget for the vivarium.  :Smile: 

Speaking of plants - what do they entail in terms of care? Do they need to be watered even though they're in a high humidity aquarium with what I assume will be damp soil?

----------


## BCollie

> Minus frogs, but including a background and  larger water feature. Yeah, about $600, if using plants from a big box store. If you want to go with exotics, tack on another $200-$300
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


I think I have decided against a water feature for now...and a background for the tank? Is the black paint on the back(outside) of the tank not a suitable background?

----------


## Brian

A 3-d background inside the tank gives more usable space for the frogs (and looks nicer:)).

You don't seem to be in a hurry here, that's a big, big plus for the budget conscious. You can save on many things, make your own ABG, collect your own leaf litter, keep your eyes open for smaller discount plants from box stores, propagate and grow them yourself, etc. A carefully detailed plan from the outset will help you know what deals you should be on the lookout for.

It might not hurt to try a smaller build first. 20 or 30 gallon used fish tanks can be had for a song if you patiently watch kiji/craigslist/garage sales. Trying a few things out on a smaller scale can help you plan for the larger version and save in the long run.

Good luck!:)

----------


## bill

That background can be whatever you choose it to be  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## BCollie

> A 3-d background inside the tank gives more usable space for the frogs (and looks nicer).
> 
> You don't seem to be in a hurry here, that's a big, big plus for the budget conscious. You can save on many things, make your own ABG, collect your own leaf litter, keep your eyes open for smaller discount plants from box stores, propagate and grow them yourself, etc. A carefully detailed plan from the outset will help you know what deals you should be on the lookout for.
> 
> It might not hurt to try a smaller build first. 20 or 30 gallon used fish tanks can be had for a song if you patiently watch kiji/craigslist/garage sales. Trying a few things out on a smaller scale can help you plan for the larger version and save in the long run.
> 
> Good luck!


Ahh, if I had a spare tank I would do this. Maybe I can use my 15 gallon tank once my snake moves to his permanent enclosure(today or tomorrow)
Questions...how do you make your own ABG? What kind of leaves work for leaf litter?

----------


## BCollie

> That background can be whatever you choose it to be 
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


A 3-D background would be nice but I'm afraid it would look bad, because I'm not artsy in that sense.  :Frown:

----------


## Brian

> Ahh, if I had a spare tank I would do this. Maybe I can use my 15 gallon tank once my snake moves to his permanent enclosure(today or tomorrow)
> Questions...how do you make your own ABG? What kind of leaves work for leaf litter?


Here's a good thread on ABG mix at dendroboard: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/par...quivalent.html

I use magnolia leaves for leaf litter, live oak is also popular. Look at what's commercially available and go find your own :Smile: . Make sure it's from a chemical free area and the leaves should be processed to keep from introducing a bunch of wild insects. There was a recent thread with more info http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...af-litter.html

----------


## BCollie

> Here's a good thread on ABG mix at dendroboard: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/par...quivalent.html
> 
> I use magnolia leaves for leaf litter, live oak is also popular. Look at what's commercially available and go find your own. Make sure it's from a chemical free area and the leaves should be processed to keep from introducing a bunch of wild insects. There was a recent thread with more info http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...af-litter.html


We have a ton of Oak Trees where I live, can I just collect the leaves the fall onto my lawn? Are there different types of Oak trees and if so, does it matter what kind of Oak leaves I collect?
I checked out that link and it seems like it would be cheaper to make my own "AGB" mix. However I cannot find Tree Fern Fiber ANYWHERE. I've looked at 3 different sites for the big city where my mom goes for work, and called one, and none of them have it. It looks like I'm going to have to order it online, anyone know of a good website to order from?

----------


## BCollie

Here's the leaves on the ground at my school. They look like Oak leaves but are these the right kind?

----------


## Paul

Yeah those look good. If your town sprays insecticide around or if you don't know with 100% certainty than do not use them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## BCollie

> Yeah those look good. If your town sprays insecticide around or if you don't know with 100% certainty than do not use them. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do not know if they do that at the college or not so I will not take those leaves. I do have an Oak tree in my front yard, I'll post pictures of it in a bit.

I don't think my question about plants was answered...what all needs to be done to take care of the plants? Watering? Trimming?

----------


## Paul

> A 3-D background would be nice but I'm afraid it would look bad, because I'm not artsy in that sense.


You don't need to be artsy to do a foam background you do need to poses a rare ability in the world these days called "being Patient" Each layer or application of foam should be kept roughly 1" thick or so. Then let that layer dry for 24 hours before adding more. Once you have a shape you like then you can do to town with Silicon and pressing peat moss, coco fiber, or anything really that will hold up to high humidity and is non toxic to amphibians.

Instead of silicon you can use Titebond 3 wood glue in place of the silicone (it absolutely must be the 3 version). You can use acrylic paint to tint the glue or leave it the default color. All of this is covered in the Vivarium 101 thread and I also have some videos on my you tube channel. that show how I apply foam and then appling the Titebond glue. 





> Speaking of plants - what do they entail in terms of care? Do they need to be watered even though they're in a high humidity aquarium with what I assume will be damp soil?


All plants are different, but the very basics of Vivarium plants is that the misting that is done to keep the humidity up also keeps the plants happy. Your soil should be setting on top of a drainage layer (covered in the Vivarium 101 thread) or on top of a false bottom (also covered in the Vivarium 101 thread). This will allow the excess water to drain away from the soil and keep you from having a nasty swampy boggy mess that will kill your plants, breed bacteria, and possibly make your frogs sick.  Prune the plants as desired and enjoy  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

I did read the Vivarium 101 thread yesterday...at least, I read the first post. I need to finish reading it!
So the plants don't generally have to be watered, just misted?

----------


## Josh

I have an adjustable hand mister, and about once every 1-2 weeks I'll directly water the soil around the plants. But mostly, yeah, misting will do it all for you.

----------


## bill

> I checked out that link and it seems like it would be cheaper to make my own "AGB" mix. However I cannot find Tree Fern Fiber ANYWHERE. I've looked at 3 different sites for the big city where my mom goes for work, and called one, and none of them have it. It looks like I'm going to have to order it online, anyone know of a good website to order from?


you can substitute fir bark for tree fern fiber. i use zoomed's reptibark as a replacement. petco carries it, i believe

----------


## bill

re: plant care. a lot really depends on the genus/species of the plant really. some require more maintenance than others. part is also dependent on plant placement and conditions. some plants will thrive in one area of the tank, yet will die off in another part of the same tank, no matter what you do. a good rule of thumb, provided you are working with good soil, is mist daily, water once/week. manual misting with a large tank, as you know, can be trying at best at times. i use a pump handled garden sprayer for my 125g. the big ones that hold about 3 gallons of water and has a spray wand on a hose. makes life so much easier because i can just crack the lid and stick the wand in and get everywhere i need to.

the only other thing you need is good lighting, which, since you are growing aquatics, i assume you have a minimum of t5ho's with 6700k bulbs, which are perfect. one thing to keep in mind, since you came from planted tanks, like i did, and this is the hardest part for most aquascapers. the growth of terrestrial plants is much slower than that of aquatics, by about 3:1. about 10:1 when running high light, EI Dosing and co2 supplementation.

----------


## BCollie

Today marks the end of a long chapter in my book, and the start of a new one. I sold all of my fish to my local fish store for $50, leaving me with $167.58 in my bank account. I think my starting budget is going to be over $300, _especially_ if my aquarium plants sell soon. My budget all depends on what I sell and when. Right now I have the $167 to work with. I hope to sell my filter within a few weeks at most, and hope to get $200 for it.
The first thing on my to-do list is to clean the glass. It has a thin film of algae covering it, and it's stuck on very well. So, I took a razor blade to it and it's coming off with a little work. My arms are tired! Here's the progress I've made so far...




You can easily see the area I've finished so far...


Now I need to figure out what to do with the sand. I want to sell it, but I don't know what to do with it in the meantime. Any ideas?

----------


## BCollie

Okay, I am done for the night, and I'm exhausted. I've been up doing stuff since I woke up this morning.
I have finished 85% of the front glass panel. The rest of it will be done after I:
1. Get all the sand out
2. Drain and dry the tank
3. Buy new razor blades!

I have gone through 5!! razor blades. They dull SO quickly. Good thing a scraper with a 6 pack of blades is less than $2. I'm going to buy 2 or 3 more of them so that I have 12-18 blades to use to finish the tank. The dirty glass you're seeing in the picture below is the _back_ panel. Notice the front, center, bottom of the tank. You can see a small section of dirty glass, which shows how spotless most of the front glass panel is! Woohoo! I'd say I'm about 1/3 done with scraping the tank glass clean. I still need to finish the front panel, and do all of the sides and back. It's going to be a several hour chore, and is going to leave me with very tired arms!


I am going to ask my mom to pick up Fir Bark for me, and maybe the other stuff too...since she's in Sacramento, the closest big city to us. I need to figure this out by tomorrow morning so that I can ask her to get it before she comes home. Otherwise I'll be waiting a week with nothing to do on my project.  :Smile:  
Okay, so I will need:
2 part Fir Bark
1 part Peat
1 part charcoal
1 part Sphagnum Moss
2 part Orchid Bark

I'm checking out a website for a "local"(Sacramento) company. Well, I think they're in Sac. Google Maps says they're in Riverside but their website says they've moved to Sac.
Potting Media

I have found Fir Bark:
Fir Bark

Charcoal:
Charcoal

Sphagnum Moss:
AAA Premier New Zealand Sphagnum Moss

I still need to find: Orchid Bark(Would this be either "orchid mix" or "orchiata"?) and peat

Okay, so help me out here please...
Questions:
1. How much is a CF???
2. Do I want COARSE charcoal or MEDIUM charcoal?
3. FINE fur bark or MEDIUM fir bark?
4. How much of each should I buy? For example, 2 CF Fir Bark, 1 CF Peat, etc... Or 1 CF Fir Bark, 1/2 CF Peat, etc...
5. Approximately how much will it cost me to buy everything I need for the AGB substitute mix?

This is all so overwhelming! I don't think I've said yet that I really appreciate your guys help!! It is invaluable.  :Smile: 

EDIT: Is Fir Bark and Orchid Bark the same thing?

----------


## bill

1. A CF is a cubic foot. That would be enough material to fill a box 12x12x12"

2. Either will work. 

3. Either will work

4. No clue, you have to play that by ear. It all depends on how deep you are planning to have your substrate and how much of the floor you are covering. 

5. No clue, prices vary by state, county, store. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## bill

No, orchid bark and fir bark are not the same. And orchid mix is acceptable as orchid bark. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## bill

> Not Necessarily, The fogger will work provided the tanks has the proper substrate , live plants , a canopy of sorts and  a waterfall or  decent sized  water pond and glass heater in a jar  .
> 
> I have done it before  without  a fogger or or monsoon with a 150 gallon tank .
> 
> Just having  the 70 gallons of water with the Eheim as a water fall allowed for evaporation and humidifying . The canopy caught it and even dropped dew back into the tank. I  did mist  form time to time  . 
> 
> My heat back in those days was a simple jar with a aquarium heater in it . that added a lot of humidity as well as heat . 
> 
> The  heater in glass trick works good for adding humidity and its cheap but you have to keep an eye on the  water level as they drop quickly as the water  evaporates. Attachment 74132
> ...


I speak from experience in saying that a mini ultrasonic fogger like the one posted will not work to keep humidity levels up in that size tank. That particular version is good for aesthetics only in that size tank. The mist will creep along the substrate and dissipate. For that size tank, a modified ultrasonic home humidifier would be the very minimum I would use. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## bill

That heater in a glass is the most unsafe thing you could put in a dart frog tank. Even with a small neck, frogs can find their way inside and touch a hot heater. This is especially dangerous if thee happen to be any froglets inside the tank. And we don't even want to touch on the fact that that is the most unsightly item to ever be considered inside a show vivarium. Smh


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## BCollie

Thanks, Bill  :Smile:  So...Would 1CF Fir Barn and 1/2 CF Charcoal be enough to cover the entire bottom of the tank (5ftx16") at an appropriate depth when combined with the other ingredients? And how many grams or kilograms of the AAA Premier New Zealand Sphagnum Moss should I buy? It comes in grams, not CF, which means I have no idea how much to buy to fit the recipe. 
Or should I pick up 2CF Fir Bark and 1 CF Charcoal? I just need to know how much I need to cover the entire bottom of the tank at an appropriate depth. 
What's the difference between Orchid Mix(1 CF Fine Orchid Mix) and Orchiata(http://www.calwesttropical.com/index...ine-orchiata)? You say I want the Orchid Mix, NOT the Orchiata?

----------


## BCollie

OKAY. I called a hardware store and they said they have: a variety of Orchid Mixes(how do I know which one is safe?), Sphagnum Moss, Charcoal, and may or may not have fir bark or Tree Fern Fiber...
I called a hardware store in my town and they have Orchid Bark and Charcoal. 
So I'm going to ask my mom to go to the hardware store in Sac and get Fir Bark OR Tree Fern Fiber IF they have it and sphagnum moss. How much should I tell her to get? I'm not sure if it comes in CF, G, or quarts...aahh, this is all so confusing!

----------


## bill

The orchiata looks to be a new high end product for strict orchid growing, which is fabulous (I'll be ordering some for some of my orchids) but probably over kill. A standard orchid mix will suffice. As far as safety, they "should" all be safe. I have yet to run across an orchid mix that had ferts in it, but I am sure they exist. Depending on how you use the long fibered sphagnum (some people layer it, some mix, I mix it in) you could use up to 2 or 3 bags. As far as the quantities, the only thing I buy in cubic feet is peat moss and I buy it in 3 cf bags (weighs about 70 lbs). I get most of my stuff at Home Depot, but you probably don't have one close to you.  :Frown: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## BCollie

Oh boy...please no drama on my thread. This thread is strictly for the nice people here helping me figure out what I need to do to get my vivarium up and running.

Okay, I have most of this figured out.
Fir Bark, Peat: Ace Hardware in Redding
Charcoal/Orchid Bark/Orchid Mix: Orchard Supply Hardware in Redding
Sphagnum Moss: Emigh Hardware in Sacramento
Now I just need to know...how much do I buy of each?!

----------


## BCollie

I just found out that Home Depot carriers Sphagnum Moss, but it comes in very small bags. I'll get everything I can at Home Depot then get the rest at the stores mentioned above. Just have NO idea how much to get of each, and I'm so bad with math so that doesn't help. Need enough to cover a 5'x16" area. If someone could walk me through how much to get of each I would be forever in your debt haha! I am just so confused right now especially because it seems they all have different units of measurement.

----------


## BCollie

Don't worry about it  :Smile:  It doesn't really bother me, all I care about is making sure I buy the right amount of stuff for the ABG mix lol!

----------


## Paul

Its hard to gauge how much of each type you should buy. It is all about how you layout the tank. You will want your soil to be around 3" deep where you intend to put plants. It is a guessing game :/ I always end up with extra soil.

----------


## Lija

Buy the biggest bags of each lol. I got a few smaller ones, mixed it up, then got some more, mixed it up.... Repeated like 10 times lol

 and after I put that into the tank, got some more lol

 after DIY I figured it would so much less $ and effort to buy ABG mix, unfortunately I can't do it Canada, but you sure can.... Just saying  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

> Its hard to gauge how much of each type you should buy. It is all about how you layout the tank. You will want your soil to be around 3" deep where you intend to put plants. It is a guessing game :/ I always end up with extra soil.


I guess I can always return anything extra  :Smile:  I just have no idea what I need to start with.
WOW, I just did the math and if I were to order the ABG online it would cost me $170 including shipping. It sounds like it would definitely be cheaper to do my own mix?

----------


## bill

Downside to building a big tank unfortunately. More of everything, including $$  :Frown: 

I really should start selling ABG lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## Amy

> Downside to building a big tank unfortunately. More of everything, including $$ 
> 
> I really should start selling ABG lol
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela



I would really buy it.

----------


## BCollie

> Downside to building a big tank unfortunately. More of everything, including $$ 
> 
> I really should start selling ABG lol
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


So true. But it is always worth it in the end when you finally get to sit back and look at what can only be described as a finished work of art.  :Smile:  I am artistic when it comes to photography and decorating things. Not so much when it comes to fake backgrounds and such.
Will my background need to go in before I put in the soil,, or should it go on top of the soil? What do you think will be the approximate cost to build a 3d background for a 5ft wide, 23" tall tank? *cringes* I have a feeling it's going to be quite a bit...

----------


## Josh

I would too. Maybe I should make my own, lol  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

I am going to stop by Home Depot on my way home from class to look at the stuff I need, and maybe buy it if it becomes apparent how much I need. Either that or I'll wait for Bill to help me out after he gets off work  :Smile:  I also want to look at stuff for making a 3D background. What would I need and approximately how much of it? Also gotta go by Walmart to get more razor blades for scraping the glass.

----------


## Brian

> I just found out that Home Depot carriers Sphagnum Moss, but it comes in very small bags. I'll get everything I can at Home Depot then get the rest at the stores mentioned above. Just have NO idea how much to get of each, and I'm so bad with math so that doesn't help. Need enough to cover a 5'x16" area. If someone could walk me through how much to get of each I would be forever in your debt haha! I am just so confused right now especially because it seems they all have different units of measurement.


First figure out the total number of cubic feet of substrate you need. Multiple length x width x height, make sure the units are in feet. Your tank is 16" wide, this is 16/12=1.25'. 

So if you wanted 3" deep substrate, 3/12=0.25', you'd need:

5' x 1.25' x 0.25' = 1.5625 cu. ft. total substrate

If you wanted 6" deep substrate, 6/12=0.5', you'd need:

5' x 1.25 x 0.5' = 3.125 cu. ft. total substrate

etc.

Add up the total number of 'parts' in the recipe you're using, for example (taken from here):

2 parts fine fir bark ( sometimes seen as "orchid bark" in the list of ingredients) 
2 parts fine tree fern fiber 
2 parts milled sphagnum moss 
1 part fine charcoal 
1 part peat moss

Has 8 parts (2+2+2+1+1). So 2/8= 1/4 of the recipe will be orchid bark. 1/4 will be tree fern fiber. 1/4 will be sphagnum. 1/8 charcoal, and another 1/8 peat.

Take the total cubic feet of substrate divide by 4 to get how much orchid bark, fern fiber, and sphagnum. Divide by 8 to get charcoal and peat. It's generally best to buy too much rather than too little, even doubling what you think you'll want won't hurt. Any excess can be used on your next tank :Smile:  or for potting plants you're propagating.

You can save on the charcoal by using hardwood lump charcoal designed for bbq's coupled with a hammer for smashing it. This is messy though (dusty), and if you go this route make sure there are no additives to the kind you get (lighter fluid for easy starting will be the most common).

----------

deranged chipmunk

----------


## bill

> First figure out the total number of cubic feet of substrate you need. Multiple length x width x height, make sure the units are in feet. Your tank is 16" wide, this is 16/12=1.25'. 
> 
> So if you wanted 3" deep substrate, 3/12=0.25', you'd need:
> 
> 5' x 1.25' x 0.25' = 1.5625 cu. ft. total substrate
> 
> If you wanted 6" deep substrate, 6/12=0.5', you'd need:
> 
> 5' x 1.25 x 0.5' = 3.125 cu. ft. total substrate
> ...


My man Brian is wicked smart eh?? Thanks a bunch Brian!!


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## BCollie

Ah, I see we have a genius on this thread! Thank you so much, that makes it easy!! I have 3cf of peat moss and approximately 1 cf of Sphagnum Moss in my cart. They have orchid potting mix here but it has fertilizer in it so I will get the stuff from Ace. I agree it's definitely better to have too much rather than too little! And I can always return anything extra. 
Checking out now then heading to Ace then a local hardware store.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Paul

If you are doing a spray foam back ground you will want to do the back ground first before adding the soil in. You will want to lay the tank on its back so the foam doesn't slide down the wall and end up in a big sloppy mess on the bottom of the tank lol. Once the spray foam cures you can carve it as desired and then cover it with your preferred method  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

> If you are doing a spray foam back ground you will want to do the back ground first before adding the soil in. You will want to lay the tank on its back so the foam doesn't slide down the wall and end up in a big sloppy mess on the bottom of the tank lol. Once the spray foam cures you can carve it as desired and then cover it with your preferred method


I would like to do a background where I don't have to move the tank, it is a huge and extremely heavy chunk of glass. Can I do painted Styrofoam?

----------


## Paul

You can do not background at all if you like. I have a few tanks that I just covered the glass on the outside of the tank.

----------


## BCollie

I would like to do one  :Smile:  if I don't like it I can take it out. Is a painted and carved Styrofoam background an option?

----------


## Paul

Yep, Use acrylic paints and then seal it with a clear polyurethane spray  :Smile: . You will want to let the whole thing air out for a few days before you put it in the tank... trust me. rushing that is awful. will make the whole tank smell like a chemical plant.

----------


## BCollie

> Yep, Use acrylic paints and then seal it with a clear polyurethane spray . You will want to let the whole thing air out for a few days before you put it in the tank... trust me. rushing that is awful. will make the whole tank smell like a chemical plant.


I will do that, thanks! I just need to figure out where I can find big sheets of Styrofoam. any ideas?

Also, how do I post pictures that are bigger than just a little thumbnail preview?

----------


## bill

ok, all caught up. Andri, i assume brian's post was helpful and got materials figured out? 

just out of curiosity, what are you using as a drainage layer?

----------


## bill

> I will do that, thanks! I just need to figure out where I can find big sheets of Styrofoam. any ideas?
> 
> Also, how do I post pictures that are bigger than just a little thumbnail preview?


home depot, in the building materials section (where all the lumber is). it's the stuff used to insulate houses. look for the pink stuff, it's much better than the white stuff that they have. that's the same as a styrofoam cup. very messy to work with and you cannot get clean edges with it.

(for my stalker: as per your suggestion, i googled that  :Encouragement: )

----------


## bill

oh, for pics, i use a photobucket account and just copy an paste the "img" link to your post. i find it easier, especially since i post across multiple forums  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

> home depot, in the building materials section (where all the lumber is). it's the stuff used to insulate houses. look for the pink stuff, it's much better than the white stuff that they have. that's the same as a styrofoam cup. very messy to work with and you cannot get clean edges with it.
> 
> (for my stalker: as per your suggestion, i googled that )


Okay, so the pink stuff used to insulate hoses...safe to use but may not turn out great if that's what you're saying? 

Re the other posts, I'm working on something right now but will get back to you when I'm done.

----------


## bill

No, sorry if I was unclear. The pink stuff is awesome!! White stuff, eh, not so much lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## BCollie

> No, sorry if I was unclear. The pink stuff is awesome!! White stuff, eh, not so much lol
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


Gotcha. Does the pink stuff come in big sheets? What does it look like?

----------


## LisaGarcia

http://insulation.owenscorning.com/u...45c8cb3d35.jpg


Looks like this..

----------


## bill

It comes in 2x2' sheets 1x10' and 4x8' sheets I believe. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## BCollie

Hmmm...what size(or combination of sizes) should I get to make a background for a 5ft wide x 23" tall tank?

----------


## bill

I would get 3 2x2 sheets if they have any. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## Paul

> I will do that, thanks! I just need to figure out where I can find big sheets of Styrofoam. any ideas?
> 
> Also, how do I post pictures that are bigger than just a little thumbnail preview?



I don't use the sites uploader because it hates me. I upload my pictures to Facebook or Photobucket and then link them to the posts.

You can get the styrofoam at Home Depot or Lowes. You want the big Pink wall insulation ones  :Smile: 

Then you can go to hobby lobby and by a Hotwire foam cutter to carve with  :Smile: 


edit: - NM would help if I read ALL the posts before responding lol.

----------


## BCollie

And then just super glue them together? Or silicone them together?

----------


## Paul

To make them thicker? Use aquarium safe silicone or 2 part epoxy... Not sure if the epoxy will react poorly with the Styrofoam or not.

Or tooth picks. You could use tooth picks to hold them together  :Smile:

----------


## bill

silicone. i'm not 100%, but i believe superglue eats styrofoam.

----------


## bill

> To make them thicker? Use aquarium safe silicone or 2 part epoxy... Not sure if the epoxy will react poorly with the Styrofoam or not.


Paul, you're killing me!! read the posts buddy!! to join the 3 2x2 sheets together to make a 6x2 sheet she can cut into a 5'x23" sheet for the tank.

----------


## Paul

Beat you! Ha! oh and Ginx

----------


## bill

> Not sure if the epoxy will react poorly with the Styrofoam or not.


you should google that  :Wink:

----------


## Brian

A low temp hot glue gun works great for styrofoam, no long cure time or bad smells unless you happen to melt the styrofoam (then it's awful and something you should run away from). This takes some effort with a low temp gun and the solid insulation type of foam, like pressing the tip up against the foam for a few seconds. The lack of a curing time may work against you if you want time to re-position things. Either way, it can be used to 'tack' pieces in place if you plan on siliconing.

I may have missed it, but what are covering the background with?

----------


## BCollie

Sorry my response have been kind of suckish for the last 2 hours!! For an hour and a half I've been picking up acorns out of my parents front yard so that they don't have baby oak trees sprouting up everywhere. I get paid $10/hour for working for them, so I've earned $15 to put towards my vivarium budget. Woohoo! And I'm making more money tomorrow by picking up acorns out of the back yard, AND acting as a taxi cab for my younger brother tonight.




> ok, all caught up. Andri, i assume brian's post was helpful and got materials figured out? 
> 
> just out of curiosity, what are you using as a drainage layer?


I haven't figured that out yet. Can you explain how a drainage layer works, and what the best material for it is? I don't think I've read that far on the Viv101 thread yet!

P.S. my name is Adri  :Wink:  Very close!

----------


## Heather

You can mix acrylic paint with Titebond III glue to coat the styrofoam.

----------


## BCollie

> A low temp hot glue gun works great for styrofoam, no long cure time or bad smells unless you happen to melt the styrofoam (then it's awful and something you should run away from). This takes some effort with a low temp gun and the solid insulation type of foam, like pressing the tip up against the foam for a few seconds. The lack of a curing time may work against you if you want time to re-position things. Either way, it can be used to 'tack' pieces in place if you plan on siliconing.
> 
> I may have missed it, but what are covering the background with?


I believe we don't have a hot glue gun, so I'll just pick up some aquarium-safe silicone from the store.  :Smile:  
And I'm not sure what I'm covering it with yet. I was first trying to figure out what to use lol!

----------


## Heather

> Sorry my response have been kind of suckish for the last 2 hours!! For an hour and a half I've been picking up acorns out of my parents front yard so that they don't have baby oak trees sprouting up everywhere. I get paid $10/hour for working for them, so I've earned $15 to put towards my vivarium budget. Woohoo! And I'm making more money tomorrow by picking up acorns out of the back yard, AND acting as a taxi cab for my younger brother tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't figured that out yet. Can you explain how a drainage layer works, and what the best material for it is? I don't think I've read that far on the Viv101 thread yet!
> 
> P.S. my name is Adri  Very close!


Ooh! I'll pay you to pick up our acorns... Our oak tree is dropping them like crazy this year.

----------


## BCollie

> Ooh! I'll pay you to pick up our acorns... Our oak tree is dropping them like crazy this year.


If only I lived closer! Lol! I picked up an entire five gallon bucket full of acorns from just our front yard!

& Thanks for the tip. I love having this all on one thread so that I can look back at things. Would I want to use a grey or brown paint to imitate a natural rock color?

----------


## BCollie

Alrighty...UPDATE!!

I have everything I need for my soil mixture. From left to right: Orchid Bark, Sphagnum Moss, Peat Moss, in front of the Peat Moss is Charcoal, and next to that is Forest Bark, which on the back says "Ingredients: Fir Bark" so it's pure fir bark. I wasn't positive about how much Sphagnum Moss and Charcoal to pick up so I just got 4 or 5 bags of each. I figured I can buy more or return extras. Or turn my 20 gallon into a vivarium if I have enough extra...some day. After this big tank is completed!!


And, check this out. I SCORED!!! A Golden Pothos that is probably 4 feet long for $12.99...I read somewhere that Pothos are safe for a vivarium, and when I asked if any pesticides or insecticides had been used on it they said no. Even if they had been, I've read that letting them sit for a few weeks/months will get rid of them, and it will definitely be months before this is completed. Please let me know if Golden Pothos are not safe for a Dart Frog Viv - I read they are but I will return it if not  :Smile:

----------


## Heather

Nice plant! Give it a good rinse, including the plant and the roots. Rinse off all soil.

----------


## Heather

Any color of paint so long as it's non-toxic acrylic.

----------


## BCollie

I will be keeping track of my expenses for this tank so that I can share it with everyone. I'm sure you're all curious as to how much this is going to end up costing me!

EXPENSES as of Oct 3rd, 2014:
Starting budget: $167
Walmart razor blades for scraping glass clean: $5
Soil mixture(Orchid Bark, Sphagnum Moss, Peat Moss, Charcoal, Fir Bark): $74
Plants: $13
Total spent so far: $92
Remaining: $75


Next up is buying stuff for a drainage layer(will someone explain that for me?) and the background.

----------


## Brian

> Sorry my response have been kind of suckish for the last 2 hours!! For an hour and a half I've been picking up acorns out of my parents front yard so that they don't have baby oak trees sprouting up everywhere. I get paid $10/hour for working for them, so I've earned $15 to put towards my vivarium budget.


Umm, I thought that was a union job, squirrels and chipmunks only.




> I believe we don't have a hot glue gun, so I'll just pick up some aquarium-safe silicone from the store.


Check the dollar store :Smile: . Even if not for your tank construction, they're great things to have.

And your Pothos will be great. A general tip though- if it came from a big box store, the staff likely have no idea what chemicals were on it. Rinsing as Heather suggested and the ample time frame should be good though :Smile:

----------


## Lija

> Sorry my response have been kind of suckish for the last 2 hours!! For an hour and a half I've been picking up acorns out of my parents front yard so that they don't have baby oak trees sprouting up everywhere. I get paid $10/hour for working for them, so I've earned $15 to put towards my vivarium budget. Woohoo! And I'm making more money tomorrow by picking up acorns out of the back yard, AND acting as a taxi cab for my younger brother tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't figured that out yet. Can you explain how a drainage layer works, and what the best material for it is? I don't think I've read that far on the Viv101 thread yet!
> 
> P.S. my name is Adri  Very close!



 Wow! I think you are well on your way on being a great business person! Nice!

if I were you I'd pick up hot glue gun and bunch of hot glue sticks from a dollar store, sillicone is smelly, tacky thing, and it is gonna stink for a long time.

----------


## Lija

Look honestly, just get a egg crate (2?), PVC and great stuff, it will sure look better then that pink foam, that you will need to cover anyway.

----------


## BCollie

> Wow! I think you are well on your way on being a great business person! Nice!
> 
> if I were you I'd pick up hot glue gun and bunch of hot glue sticks from a dollar store, sillicone is smelly, tacky thing, and it is gonna stink for a long time.


I didn't realize they were so cheap. I'll have to pick one up, there's a dollar store right down the street from me. You're right that silicone is smelly, I used to use it quite a bit when I was in the fish keeping hobby(so weird saying that, it was such a big part of my life for so long!)




> Umm, I thought that was a union job, squirrels and chipmunks only.
> 
> Check the dollar store. Even if not for your tank construction, they're great things to have.
> 
> And your Pothos will be great. A general tip though- if it came from a big box store, the staff likely have no idea what chemicals were on it. Rinsing as Heather suggested and the ample time frame should be good though


Hehe, well I'm not a chipmunk or a squirrel....  :Smile: 

No worries about it being from a big box store. I thought about that when I was at Walmart so I didn't even bother looking at their plants. I got it from a place called Orchard Supply Hardware. They seemed pretty sure that no chemicals were used on the plant, but if it was closer to the time when I got the frogs I wouldn't risk it. When I do get all my plants it will be closer to the time that I get frogs, and since that will be the case I will only buy from places like Josh's Frogs, etc. that have plants that are verified chemical free. Don't want my little froggies getting sick!! I'm very careful about that, I asked several people if Miracle Grow Orchid Mix had fertilizers in it before I got a definite answer. It was a yes, so I passed on it and got Orchid Bark from Orchard Supply Hardware instead.  :Smile:

----------


## Paul

Drainage Layer - A layer of the substrate to allow excess water to collect and drain away from the soil. To help preserve the soil and not create a swamp or bog condition that would encourage bacteria growth (and not the good kind). The drainage layer needs to be a minimum of 1.5" deep, but it is more typical to see them 2 - 3" deep

The drainage layer consists of 3 basic parts.

1 - Drainage material - You can use a variety of materials. Aquarium gravel, river rocks, Leca (expanded clay), or Light wieght drainage material (sold by hobby supply sites like Josh's Frogs or NeHerp). This material will need to be put in to be 2 - 3" deep.

2 - A material to stop soil from falling down into the drainage layer. You can use anything that is non toxic and will not break down fast. You also want it to allow air and water to pass through easily but not soil. You can use typical weed block or Fiberglass window screen. This will be laid over the top of the drainage material. Let it go up the sides of the tank about an inch so it creates a sort of bowl to hold the soil mixture. 

Optional - You can get some quilt batting and use it between the drainage material and screen to add additional filtration to catch any tiny soil particles. This can be cut exactly to size and does not need to go up the sides of the tank.

3. A way to siphon off excess water. As time progresses the drainage layer will accumulate water and will need to be drained as it gets closer to the soil. Typically a piece of PVC pipe is hidden in the corner of a back ground and goes down into the drainage layer (a sponge or typical aquarium filter) can be places at the bottom to keep from clogging the siphon tube. Then when needed you can stick the siphone hose down the PVC and drain off excess water. You want to keep the drainage layer about 1/2 to 3/4 full of water. Any micro fauna you add to the soil will go down to the water or near it to breed.

----------


## BCollie

> Look honestly, just get a egg crate (2?), PVC and great stuff, it will sure look better then that pink foam, that you will need to cover anyway.


Can you explain what you mean? I'm a bit confused.

----------


## Paul

If you carve the pink foam you can get some pretty cool looking backgrounds. The spray foam is a common one to use, but is not the only way to do it  :Smile: 


Hot wire foam factory has some Styrofoam coat that they sale. It covers the foam and gives it a sort of rock like texture and can be tinted with paint. It isn't cheap, but it is good  :Smile: .  Or you can simply tint the titebond 3 glue and cover it. There is no rule to having to stick peat moss or cocofiber to it for texture. Backgrounds in tanks are largely for the humans that look at them and less about the frogs  :Smile:  sure frogs will use them, but it is not required. We just have to make sure what we are doing is safe for them  :Smile:

----------


## Paul

> Can you explain what you mean? I'm a bit confused.


She is referring to a "False bottom" it is covered in the vivarium 101 thread. It is used if you are going to have a water feature and is not needed if you don't. You could technically still use it, but the drainage layer is better if you wont have a water feature so the micro fauna of the tank can crawl down to the water to breed.

----------


## BCollie

> Drainage Layer - A layer of the substrate to allow excess water to collect and drain away from the soil. To help preserve the soil and not create a swamp or bog condition that would encourage bacteria growth (and not the good kind). The drainage layer needs to be a minimum of 1.5" deep, but it is more typical to see them 2 - 3" deep
> 
> The drainage layer consists of 3 basic parts.
> 
> 1 - Drainage material - You can use a variety of materials. Aquarium gravel, river rocks, Leca (expanded clay), or Light wieght drainage material (sold by hobby supply sites like Josh's Frogs or NeHerp). This material will need to be put in to be 2 - 3" deep.
> 
> 2 - A material to stop soil from falling down into the drainage layer. You can use anything that is non toxic and will not break down fast. You also want it to allow air and water to pass through easily but not soil. You can use typical weed block or Fiberglass window screen. This will be laid over the top of the drainage material. Let it go up the sides of the tank about an inch so it creates a sort of bowl to hold the soil mixture. 
> 
> Optional - You can get some quilt batting and use it between the drainage material and screen to add additional filtration to catch any tiny soil particles. This can be cut exactly to size and does not need to go up the sides of the tank.
> ...


Very helpful, thank you!! 
So the river rocks should go on the very bottom of the tank, correct? They would be the bottom most layer out of everything? I can buy "River Pebbles"(Vigoro 0.5 cu. ft. River Pebbles-54250V at The Home Depot) from Home Depot for like 5 bucks for half a cubic foot. I would probably want around 1 cubic foot to make the layer 2-3" deep, am I correct? Or am I overestimating?

I will go look into weed block...sounds like something that would be cheap that I can find anywhere. That is the black stuff laid down under gravel to prevent weeds from growing, right?

----------


## Lija

pVC is a long plastic tube ( cheap), you need to cut and put on bottom for support.

egg crate is a white plastic big mesh looking thing, I think they are also called light diffusers.

great stuff is expanding foam, cans, you spray that and it expands  :Smile:  but the tank has to be on its back  :Smile: 

check viv 101... Seriuosly, there are pics of all that  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

> If you carve the pink foam you can get some pretty cool looking backgrounds. The spray foam is a common one to use, but is not the only way to do it 
> 
> 
> Hot wire foam factory has some Styrofoam coat that they sale. It covers the foam and gives it a sort of rock like texture and can be tinted with paint. It isn't cheap, but it is good .  Or you can simply tint the titebond 3 glue and cover it. There is no rule to having to stick peat moss or cocofiber to it for texture. Backgrounds in tanks are largely for the humans that look at them and less about the frogs  sure frogs will use them, but it is not required. We just have to make sure what we are doing is safe for them


I will probably end up sticking peat moss to it just for aesthetics, I'll probably put it in the cracks between the "rocks". 




> She is referring to a "False bottom" it is covered in the vivarium 101 thread. It is used if you are going to have a water feature and is not needed if you don't. You could technically still use it, but the drainage layer is better if you wont have a water feature so the micro fauna of the tank can crawl down to the water to breed.


Gotcha! Yeah, I decided against a water feature for this tank.

----------


## Paul

> Very helpful, thank you!! 
> So the river rocks should go on the very bottom of the tank, correct? They would be the bottom most layer out of everything? I can buy "River Pebbles"(Vigoro 0.5 cu. ft. River Pebbles-54250V at The Home Depot) from Home Depot for like 5 bucks for half a cubic foot. I would probably want around 1 cubic foot to make the layer 2-3" deep, am I correct? Or am I overestimating?
> 
> I will go look into weed block...sounds like something that would be cheap that I can find anywhere. That is the black stuff laid down under gravel to prevent weeds from growing, right?


The fiberglass window screen is better and cheap as well. 

go to the Vivarium 101 contruction thread. Scroll down to post 6. there is a picture of a drainage layer.

----------


## BCollie

> The fiberglass window screen is better and cheap as well. 
> 
> go to the Vivarium 101 contruction thread. Scroll down to post 6. there is a picture of a drainage layer.


Ahh, then that's what I will go with! Where can I buy it?
&I will go do that right now...
Any ideas how many cubic feet of River Pebbles I should buy?

----------


## BCollie

Ah, completely unrelated to what we're talking about, but I want to bring it up while I'm thinking about it. I'm using the Finnex FugeRay Planted Plus on my tank. Is this good light for growing terrestrial plants like I'll be growing in my viv?
Info on it:
Finnex FugeRay Planted+ LED Fixture: 48" - FugeRay Planted Series - Ultra Slim LED Fixture - Lighting - Products

----------


## BCollie

And for my third post in a row...lol...
Let me just compile all my questions into one post.
1. I think I found the Fiberglass Screen...is this the right stuff? New York Wire 36 in. x 84 in. Fiberglass Screen-FCS8743-M at The Home Depot
2. Will the Finnex FugeRay Planted+ be a good light for growing my plants? Finnex FugeRay Planted+ LED Fixture: 48" - FugeRay Planted Series - Ultra Slim LED Fixture - Lighting - Products
3. How many cubic feet will I need to make a 2-3" drainage layer?
4. How do I hide the drainage layer?? IMO it will look ugly seeing rocks at the bottom of the vivarium through the glass...I would prefer to see just soil if at all possible

----------


## Josh

Looks like you're getting a nice pile of supplies going  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

> Looks like you're getting a nice pile of supplies going


Yes!!  :Big Grin: 
Which reminds me, if someone could look at it and tell me if it's all okay that'd be great...you can find the picture on the last page. The Sphagnum moss doesn't say "milled" on it, but it's the kind from Home Depot...as is the Peat Moss.

EDIT: I'm back to scraping the algae and hard water off of the tank, so my responses may be a bit slow.

----------


## Lija

> And for my third post in a row...lol...
> Let me just compile all my questions into one post.
> 1. I think I found the Fiberglass Screen...is this the right stuff? New York Wire 36 in. x 84 in. Fiberglass Screen-FCS8743-M at The Home Depot
> 2. Will the Finnex FugeRay Planted+ be a good light for growing my plants? Finnex FugeRay Planted+ LED Fixture: 48" - FugeRay Planted Series - Ultra Slim LED Fixture - Lighting - Products
> 3. How many cubic feet will I need to make a 2-3" drainage layer?
> 4. How do I hide the drainage layer?? IMO it will look ugly seeing rocks at the bottom of the vivarium through the glass...I would prefer to see just soil if at all possible


1. Yes, it is the right stuff
2. Depending on a price, you better look at aquatraders.com  hard to beat their prices.
3. No idea.... Where is our Brian when we need him lol
4. Paint on the outside, black paint or whatever you like. I used nice rebeo gel with sand particles mixed with black pain for my last tank. Love it!

----------


## Lija

Oh and if you spray some water with vinegar or plain vinegar and scrub while wet you might move the process way faster  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

Thank you Lija  :Smile:  For the light, I meant...that is the one I already have. Is it suitable for growing plants or am I going to have to buy another one?

----------


## Lija

Yes, your light will work..... To the best of my knowledge  :Smile:

----------


## Paul

> And for my third post in a row...lol...
> Let me just compile all my questions into one post.
> 1. I think I found the Fiberglass Screen...is this the right stuff? New York Wire 36 in. x 84 in. Fiberglass Screen-FCS8743-M at The Home Depot
> 2. Will the Finnex FugeRay Planted+ be a good light for growing my plants? Finnex FugeRay Planted+ LED Fixture: 48" - FugeRay Planted Series - Ultra Slim LED Fixture - Lighting - Products
> 3. How many cubic feet will I need to make a 2-3" drainage layer?
> 4. How do I hide the drainage layer?? IMO it will look ugly seeing rocks at the bottom of the vivarium through the glass...I would prefer to see just soil if at all possible



1. I buy mine from Home Depot. As long as it is fiber glass it will work. The smaller the spaces in the weave the better.

2. Yes it will work. Land plants want around 6500k for photosynthesis. 7000k will be bright but shouldn't be to bright.  

3. 1.5625 cu. ft. for 3" deep

4. You can paint the outside glass black to hide the drainage layer. Keep a section on the side of the tank open so you can easily tell when you need to siphon off excess water.

----------


## BCollie

Ahh, have I mentioned how much I love you guys? Seriously, I'm not joking. There is NO way I could do this without you! I think this figuring-it-all-out stage is probably the hardest part that I need the most help with. This tank is being constructed by Adri, Brian, Bill, Paul, Lija...and the list goes on...haha!

Tomorrow I will head to Home Depot and buy 3 bags of River Pebbles, and 1 roll of Fiberglass Screen. I will also see where I can buy that quilt batting stuff you were talking about...

----------


## Lynn

> Ahh, have I mentioned how much I love you guys? Seriously, I'm not joking. There is NO way I could do this without you! I think this figuring-it-all-out stage is probably the hardest part that I need the most help with. This tank is being constructed by Adri, Brian, Bill, Paul, Lija...and the list goes on...haha!
> 
> Tomorrow I will head to Home Depot and buy 3 bags of River Pebbles, and 1 roll of Fiberglass Screen. I will also see where I can buy that quilt batting stuff you were talking about...


That is a VERY nice thing to say! Enjoy your build  :Smile: 

The quilt batting can be purchased at most fabric stores 
Try to purchase the 3/8" or 3/4"  thickness one. It is less expensive/ purchased in roll ( comes in bed sizes) 
This was purchased at Joanne's Fabrics and Crafts:



layers---bottom up

pebbles
poly quilt batting
screening
soil substrate

 :Butterfly:

----------


## bill

> Umm, I thought that was a union job, squirrels and chipmunks only.


Hey! Was that a rip about chipmunks? I think that was a rip about chipmunks!! Hey, it's not easy getting into that union. The unemployment rates amongst chipmunks is high what with all the construction and losing our oak trees and all. That, and those darned chipmunks sneaking up from Mexico and stealing all of the jobs!!


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## bill

Adri, my apologies for misspelling for name. In my defense though, I misspell my own most of the time lol

Looks like your supplies are good and everyone has you on track.  :Smile:  how did you like carrying that bag of peat moss? A bit heavy eh? 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## Josh

Bill's our resident jokester as well as plant expert  :Wink:

----------


## BCollie

> That is a VERY nice thing to say! Enjoy your build 
> 
> The quilt batting can be purchased at most fabric stores 
> Try to purchase the 3/8" or 3/4"  thickness one. It is less expensive/ purchased in roll ( comes in bed sizes) 
> This was purchased at Joanne's Fabrics and Crafts:
> 
> 
> 
> layers---bottom up
> ...


Thanks!! I will stop by Joanne's Fabric and purchase some.  :Smile:  I am looking at their website and it seems that there's two types: Polyester and Cotton...Does it matter which I buy?




> Hey! Was that a rip about chipmunks? I think that was a rip about chipmunks!! Hey, it's not easy getting into that union. The unemployment rates amongst chipmunks is high what with all the construction and losing our oak trees and all. That, and those darned chipmunks sneaking up from Mexico and stealing all of the jobs!!
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


I have always like chipmunks  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Adri, my apologies for misspelling for name. In my defense though, I misspell my own most of the time lol
> 
> Looks like your supplies are good and everyone has you on track.  how did you like carrying that bag of peat moss? A bit heavy eh? 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


Don't even worry about it, you're probably not pronouncing it right in your head, either (A-dree, rymes with, look "a tree!" hahaha!!) but I respond to pretty much anything that looks or sounds similar to my name.
And, I have a bad wrist so it wasn't very fun to carry, but I managed  :Wink:  I'm the strongest 105lb, 5'6" girl you'll ever meet. (that's a lie)




> Bill's our resident jokester as well as plant expert


Ah, well, since he's our resident plant expert...maybe he can answer this for me!
How often should I water my giant pothos vine? If I remember right it's not possible to water them too much, because you can stick them barefoot in an aquarium filter and they do just fine...

----------


## BCollie

Things to pick up today:
Quilt Batting(cotton or polyester??)
1 roll of fiberglass screen
3 bags of river pebbles

Okay, and I'm having trouble finding the insulation/foam for the background of my vviv that we were talking about on Home Depot's website. You wouldn't happen to know what it's called and where it's located, would you? Here's what my search turned up:
Search Results forÂ*2x2 insulationÂ*at The Home Depot
Would it be this?
Project Panels 2 ft. x 2 ft. Project Panel-PP1 at The Home Depot

----------


## bill

They are the panels you want.  :Smile: 

Re: watering the pothos. Mixing will be plentiful enough for it. Once it has it's aerial roots established, it will take in nutrients through those.  :Smile:  until then, while it is in the pot, water when the top layer of soil feels dry. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## Lija

You want polyester batik

----------


## BCollie

> You want polyester batik


Okay, so...Official shopping list:
POLYESTER Quilt Batting(Joanne's Fabric)
Three 2x2 pink foam insulation boards(Home Depot)
Three .5cf bags of river pebbles(Home Depot)
1 roll of fiberglass screen with as small of holes as possible(Home Depot)
One hot glue gun & several sticks of hot glue...I assume I need to look at Joanne's Fabric to find a low-temp hot glue gun?

I think that's it for now...am I forgetting anything? What should I use to carve the foam boards with?

----------


## BCollie

> They are the panels you want. 
> 
> Re: watering the pothos. Mixing will be plentiful enough for it. Once it has it's aerial roots established, it will take in nutrients through those.  until then, while it is in the pot, water when the top layer of soil feels dry. 
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


What do you mean by mixing?

----------


## bill

Oops, sorry. Autocorrect fail MISTING!! Lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## BCollie

> Oops, sorry. Autocorrect fail MISTING!! Lol
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


Ahh that makes more sense!

Question...that foam insulation stuff that I'll be using as a background isn't going to affect the water in the drainage layer, is it?

----------


## BCollie

Alright, here's where I'm at. The sand is out, the tank is 100% scraped clean of algae and hard water, and it's drained and dry.
Do I really need to bleach it? If so, how many gallons of bleach should I dump in the full tank?

----------


## BCollie

Oh hey!! Hopefully someone will see this before I head to the store...what do I need to buy to carve the "rocks" into the foam background??

----------


## BCollie

Measure twice, cut once.


Fits perfectly once I cut it down to size! It's nice and snug, I don't think I'll even need to stick it to the glass with anything.


Progress!


Finished with the first panel.


Put it in to see how it looked


Now...I need you guys to be very honest with me! How does it look? If you think it looks bad please be honest(I can handle it  :Wink:  ) and I'll flip it over and try again.

----------


## LisaGarcia

That looks great!! (IMO)  I personally, would glue it down to the back of the glass just to make sure there is no way for it to fall over or for anything to get behind it. I know with the hydroballs, screen, dirt, etc it would probably be a non-issue but..

----------


## BCollie

> That looks great!! (IMO)  I personally, would glue it down to the back of the glass just to make sure there is no way for it to fall over or for anything to get behind it. I know with the hydroballs, screen, dirt, etc it would probably be a non-issue but..


Yay, I'm glad you like it!! Thanks!!
Is there a way that I can stick it to the glass that's not permanent? So it can be taken off without there being any trace of it ever having been there....So that if I ever want to sell the tank, people aren't going, "what is that on the back wall?"

----------


## bill

That looks great! I like it!!

Silicone will work to affix it to the glass. Silicone will scrape off with a razor blade after you remove it. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## Lynn

> Things to pick up today:
> Quilt Batting(cotton or polyester??)
> 1 roll of fiberglass screen
> 3 bags of river pebbles
> 
> Okay, and I'm having trouble finding the insulation/foam for the background of my vviv that we were talking about on Home Depot's website. You wouldn't happen to know what it's called and where it's located, would you? Here's what my search turned up:
> Search Results forÂ*2x2 insulationÂ*at The Home Depot
> Would it be this?
> Project Panels 2 ft. x 2 ft. Project Panel-PP1 at The Home Depot


Poly !

----------


## BCollie

Finished!!!
My floor...


All put into the tank, but NOT glued together yet.


Now, I need to paint it.
Non-toxic acrylic paint...mixed with what? Someone said to mix non-toxic acrylic paint with something but I don't remember what I need to mix it with and can't find the page we talked about it on.

----------


## Lija

Wooooowwww!  You know what! I'm so doing the same now... That looks amazing! And if you paint it and shade it and stick moss in places and you can glue in some coco..... Wow! Amazing!

----------


## LisaGarcia

AMAZING!! Way to go!! Now, come out here and do mine please  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

**marks new expenses

EXPENSES as of Oct 4th, 2014
**Fiberglass window screen $5
**1.5cf river pebbles $15
**Three 2x2 foam panels $16
**Low Temp Hot glue gun&glue: $8
**Quilt Batting: $8
Walmart razor blades for scraping glass clean: $5
Soil mixture(Orchid Bark, Sphagnum Moss, Peat Moss, Charcoal, Fir Bark): $74
Plants: $13
Total spent so far: $144
Remaining: $50

EXPENSES as of Oct 3rd, 2014:
Starting budget: $167
Walmart razor blades for scraping glass clean: $5
Soil mixture(Orchid Bark, Sphagnum Moss, Peat Moss, Charcoal, Fir Bark): $74
Plants: $13
Total spent so far: $92
Remaining: $75

----------


## BCollie

Thanks you guys!! I had fun doing it, but unfortunately I have tendonitis in my wrist and this really aggravated it. Good thing it was a pretty short job. Finished in about 1.5-2 hours.

Now I need to paint it. I'm going to use a medium grey paint and for the cracks I'll use a dark grey. Now that I'm home I was able to get on my computer and look back in the thread, and I see that I need to mix the paint with Titebond 3? How much glue do I use for how much paint? And why am I mixing the two together?
I want to add moss to the background. How do I attach it? I assume I do it after painting.

EDIT: OH! Also, how do I know if paint is non-toxic or not? I plan on going to Walmart and asking them to mix up the colors for me, is there a certain brand that is non-toxic?

----------


## canadian frog

should say on the packaging if its toxic or not, by the way the background looks great, the tite bond is waterproof and wont come off the background when misting, or you can use a clearcoat after painting the foam, cant remember which one at the moment.

----------


## BCollie

What is the point of mixing the Titebond with the paint?

----------


## canadian frog

haven't tried this method yet, but im thinking instead of the clear coat spray, because the glue is waterproof by mixing it with the paint, the paint therefore becomes waterproof

----------


## bill

Looks most excellent Adri!! Some people mix titebond glue with the acrylic paint to waterproof it because the paint is water soluble, but you can just as easily cover the background in krylon fusion clear spray paint, after it is painted. A few decent coats will do the trick.  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## Strider18

Wow, I don't think I have seen so many posts on a single thread in as little as 3 days. I read the whole thing and I look forward to putting in my input when I can! Good luck!  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

> Looks most excellent Adri!! Some people mix titebond glue with the acrylic paint to waterproof it because the paint is water soluble, but you can just as easily cover the background in krylon fusion clear spray paint, after it is painted. A few decent coats will do the trick. 
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


Thank you!! I think I will do the Krylon Fusion Clear Matte Finish(looked it up and they have it at Walmart) if they carry it at my Walmart. If not, then I will do the Titebond glue. Seems much easier to just use the Krylon.  :Smile:  Will I need to spray the back, bottom, and sides of the foam to make that waterproof too, or is the foam already waterproof?




> Wow, I don't think I have seen so many posts on a single thread in as little as 3 days. I read the whole thing and I look forward to putting in my input when I can! Good luck!


Hehe, yeah I was just saying to my mom yesterday how we're over 130 posts already!! Insane!! Everyone here is so helpful though, I love it  :Big Grin:

----------


## BCollie

Any tips for hiding the cracks between the three foam boards? They're pretty easy to see.

----------


## Paul

Background looks great! I am not sure how I would hide the seams in the background. Might be able to get enough paint down in there to hide them some, but in all honesty once it is painted and planted you will be the only one who can se the seams in the background easily. Everyone else will look right past them  :Smile: 

If it was my background I would probably be using either the foam coat from hotwire foam factory or unsanded tile grout colored with acrylic paint to do the base coat on the wall and then cover it in Drylock paint with various shades of tinting to it. 

Short answer. there isn't really a wrong way to do it as long as you ensure the materials you use are nontoxic. 

Paul

----------


## Josh

sticking long fiber sphagnum moss between cracks or over bare spots in paint is a popular method.

----------


## BCollie

Thank guys  :Smile:  I will probably end up going with the nontoxic acrylic paint with Krylon over it just because it's cheap, I can get it locally, and most importantly it is the least intimidating option lol! Everything else sounds so complicated and scary for a first time background painter  :Smile:  lol!

Good idea to use the moss. I should have extras.

Any tips on finding non toxic acrylic paint For Walmart to mix up for me? Is there a certain brand that is non toxic?

----------


## BCollie

Okay. I found non toxic acrylic paint. Got the three panels 90% done...should I use peat moss or sphagnum moss to "decorate" it? Does it go on before or after the final Krylon coat? I assume after. What do I put it on there with...hot glue? I have no idea 
Pictures will come tomorrow  :Smile:

----------


## Paul

> Okay. I found non toxic acrylic paint. Got the three panels 90% done...should I use peat moss or sphagnum moss to "decorate" it? Does it go on before or after the final Krylon coat? I assume after. What do I put it on there with...hot glue? I have no idea 
> Pictures will come tomorrow



You could get some live sheet moss to decorate the back wall with. Moss can be pinned to the background using floral wire, zip ties, hot glue, super glue, epoxy, tooth picks ... anything really as long as when it dries it is non toxic. If you are using live moss than the mounting method could be done in a way so it can be removed in a few months when the moss has attached itself to the background.

----------


## BCollie

> You could get some live sheet moss to decorate the back wall with. Moss can be pinned to the background using floral wire, zip ties, hot glue, super glue, epoxy, tooth picks ... anything really as long as when it dries it is non toxic. If you are using live moss than the mounting method could be done in a way so it can be removed in a few months when the moss has attached itself to the background.


Oh, hmm...to use live moss or not to use live moss? That's going to be a hard decision. Peat or Sphagnum would be cheaper but may look too dead

----------


## BCollie

Would I be able to find sheet moss at a local store or would I most likely need to special order it?

----------


## LisaGarcia

Check your local nursery for it.

----------


## BCollie

I called all my local nurseries between classes and one has sheet moss, but not LIVE sheet moss. I'm going to stop by and look at it since it's on my way home, we'll see if I like it enough to use it...also depends on how expensive it is!

----------


## BCollie

Oh, quick question before my next class starts...are there any plants that could be stuck to the background? NOT mosses, but leafy(fine or thick leaves, doesn't matter) plants? If this is possible what plants would be best for it?

----------


## Lija

That would be Broms.

do you wanna check josh frogs, neherp, etc and get smth shipped.... Moss, Broms, etc  :Smile:

----------


## Josh

Tillandsias are great for backgrounds too (type of brom?). There are also epiphytic (air plants) vines and ferns.

----------


## BCollie

So far, I have spent 12!! hours on these 3 pieces - turned them from foam blocks into works of art.
Beginning...the start of painting.


Learned after finishing this piece...


That it was better to paint the crevices first, THEN the rocks. So I did


Finished painting the basics, so I started adding details. A layer of green, then a layer of brown, then another layer of green, then a layer of "rock" color with sponges.




By the time it was done, my opinion is that is was downright beautiful, for having been created by _me_. This was my first time ever painting something, I poured all my creative talent into it. At this point, I'd spent 12 hours on it and I was pretty dang pleased with myself. Time well spent.


Time to break out the Krylon to make it waterproof.


I sprayed the first coat, paying special attention to the crevices. You would imagine my surprise when I saw pink show up.


I had an idea, so I went inside and got a little piece of foam to try something.
Yep, just as I suspected. KRYLON EATS ANY LITTLE PIECE OF FOAM NOT 100% COVERED BY PAINT.


Did I seriously just waste 12 hours on this? Is there nothing I can do now? I am furious, and sad, I want to hit things and cry.

----------


## Paul

It looks great!!

Dont worry these things happen to all of us. You have 3 options.

1. Throw it away and start over <not a serious option>

2. touch up the paint and then re apply the Krylon

3. Leave as is and hide it with moss.


Check Heherp for live moss. I use the moss they sale as "NeHerp Moss" all the time and I love it. You can either get a small ziplock bag full or a large 12x12 back full. The bigger back is $15 and the smaller one is $9 i think. You get a TON of it in those bags though. For pinning to the background in places I would do the smaller bag  :Smile:  They also sales some great ghost wood you could nab some to make the shipping cost more "money well spent" than just getting moss.

----------


## BCollie

Tonight cannot get any worse. Seriously, come on life, BRING IT ON. First my foam starts melting, then I go inside to check on a chick I had to help hatch because it was malpositioned in the egg(only to find it had unabsorbed yolk, so it got stuck in a cup inside the incubator so it could absorb the yolk) to find it had died, and then my heat lamp for the chicks brooder went out. My mom asked why I was being so grumpy and I just broke down crying.
$10 from my vivarium budget is now going towards buying a new bulb for the stupid heat lamp.

If the foam melts much more, I'm afraid it will melt all the way through. It's about 3/4 of the way through the board from a combination of me scraping it down & then the Krylon eating away at it. I've done two coats of Krylon.
1. Will 3 light coats of Krylon be enough to make the board waterproof?
2. Can I do the 3rd coat of Krylon then touch it up with acrylic paint mixed with Titebond 3? That way I don't risk the Krylon finding another invisible crack and eating more foam?
3. Is the foam itself waterproof? Will it disintegrate in the water at all or make the water unsafe? Or is it totally safe to be submerged in water?(I'm thinking about the bottom of it in the drainage layer.

I will look into live moss but I'm not sure I can afford it now, depending on how much shipping is. I'm ready to have this background done, I may just end up sticking on dead Sphagnum or Peat moss then buying live moss when I can afford it. I do like the idea of a live moss background.

----------


## BCollie

**marks new expenses
EXPENSES as of Oct 5th/6th, 2014
**Non-toxic acrylic paint and paint brushes, $7
**Clear, Matte Finish Krylon Spray Paint, $5
Fiberglass window screen $5
1.5cf river pebbles $15
Three 2x2 foam panels $16
Low Temp Hot glue gun&glue: $8
Quilt Batting: $8
Walmart razor blades for scraping glass clean: $5
Soil mixture(Orchid Bark, Sphagnum Moss, Peat Moss, Charcoal, Fir Bark): $74
Plants: $13
Total spent so far: $156
Remaining: $38

EXPENSES as of Oct 4th, 2014
Fiberglass window screen $5
1.5cf river pebbles $15
Three 2x2 foam panels $16
Low Temp Hot glue gun&glue: $8
Quilt Batting: $8
Walmart razor blades for scraping glass clean: $5
Soil mixture(Orchid Bark, Sphagnum Moss, Peat Moss, Charcoal, Fir Bark): $74
Plants: $13
Total spent so far: $144
Remaining: $50

EXPENSES as of Oct 3rd, 2014:
Starting budget: $167
Walmart razor blades for scraping glass clean: $5
Soil mixture(Orchid Bark, Sphagnum Moss, Peat Moss, Charcoal, Fir Bark): $74
Plants: $13
Total spent so far: $92
Remaining: $75

----------


## Paul

Be careful. Getting frustrated and seemingly rushing to move past the pain will result in more pain always. 

You will need to come at this from a different angle. The back and sides will need to be sprayed with the krylon and we now know that will dissolve your awesome back ground into nothingness. 

Here is what I would do if I woke up in your situation. Take the Krylon back to where you bought it and tell them it is the wrong product and you made a mistake. Most places have excellent return policies. Then buy some paint on polyurethane (its the chemicals in the aerosol that are melting the foam). Go home and touch up the affected areas. Redo the hole thing if you have to, but don't rush. These things take time and mistakes happen. I cant even begin to tell you how many times I spent hours and hours on something for a tank just to have it fail. You just have to walk away regroup and come back recharged and fresh with the new knowledge you just gained seared into your brain.  anyways... Touch it up and then do 3 coats of the Poly. You will want to do all 4 sides since the whole thing will be in the tank and not just the front. 3 really good coats. The first coat will get mostly absorbed and then the other 2 should cover it. Allow each coat to dry for the recommended amount of time on the product you buy. 


Please dont rush. You will only end up costing yourself more money.

----------


## Lija

Yeah.... Paul is so right.... Learned the same hard way. Don't rush! And try to make this best of the situation.

----------


## BCollie

Thank you. I think I just need to calm down before I work on it again. I'm very upset over a horrible hatch. I set 23 chicken eggs in my incubator. 13 made it to "lockdown" which is where you stop turning the eggs and prepare for them to hatch. Of those 13, 5 hatched and 1 died. This is the worst hatch I've ever had, and it's especially heartbreaking because I was planning on keeping some of these chicks. I'm happy for the 4 healthy ones I have, but heartbroken over such a horrible hatch.  :Frown:  The foam melting was just the icing on the cake.
I will reread your message to figure out exactly what needs to be done TOMORROW. Right now, I'm going to bed. 
Here's a picture of my dog and one of my baby chicks.

----------


## Lynn

:Frown:   Sorry 

Many solvents melt polystyrene products. It's actually how harder molded plastics are made.
ie these foams will completely melt if exposed to any kind of acetone.

I wish I could offer additional advice as to how to re-group but I have zero experience in this department.

You are very artistic.  Have you considered simply painting the outside of the glass? 

 :Butterfly:

----------


## BCollie

Thank you Lynn. Painting the back of the tank didn't really cross my mind, because it's already painted black. I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to make it look realistic if I painted the glass! I am determined to get this background fixed, I spent so much time on it that it WILL be fixed! I just went and bought polyurethane, they didn't have matte so I got satin. I will repair the paint job then do several coats of poly. It has a 4-5 hour drying time between coats but I'll let it dry for 6 hours since I plan on doing a thicker coat in the crevices. 
1. Do I need to paint the back, bottom and sides of the foam board, too? Or just the painted area?
2. I was looking on Google at different types of vivarium mosses and I saw someone uses an aquatic moss, Xmas moss...I have a TON of this in my 20 gallon tank, a 13" long by 6" tall clump of it. Can I use this on the background??

----------


## BCollie

Ohh, one more question. I want to go out today and buy a cover for the tank. Right now I just have egg crate and that obviously isn't going to hold humidity in. Should I get plexiglass, or glass, or something else?? to use as a cover?

----------


## Paul

The Krylon "Fusion" line does not melt foams.

Xmas moss is very common in tanks. Not sure how it will do on the background, but if you keep it wet enough it should be fine.

Bill uses Lexan, similar to Plexi but better is almost every way. I prefer to buy glass for my tops. You could even put a standard Aquarium top on it. I have one on my 40b, I just reversed it so I open the bigger section to feed and mist. Makes it easier to get into the tank to work as well.

----------


## BCollie

I didn't know that the "Fusion" line doesn't melt foam. I'm sure it was said to me on this thread and I just didn't take a mental note that it had to be the FUSION line. 

I went to Lowe's after my mom and I picked up my younger brother from school, and went searching for Lexan(Polycarbonate) sheets. They had them for $33 each, BUT...they were 2 inches too short to cut into two pieces for the tank(one for each side of the divider)!! I wasn't going to spend $66 on a top for my tank...so I looked at the glass. Unfortunately the glass they carried was too thin - I am fostering a cat that likes to jump on top of my tank. It was quite possible that she would stand on it wrong, it would break, and slice her up. Not a chance I was willing to take. I called Home Depot and they said they have Polycarbonate sheets, and right as we were about to leave one of the guys that works at Lowe's that I was talking with said he could give me a good deal on a big, thick piece of Plexiglass. It was one of the large, thick, $66 sheets. I said, "What kind of deal"? And he said...$10! He cut it into the sizes I needed and asked if I wanted what was left of the sheet, the extra stuff. When I said no, he took down the price even more.
I walked away with two nice, thick pieces of acrylic/plexiglass for $6. If it gives me any trouble I will go hunting for thicker glass or polycarbonate sheets that would fit my tank, but this seems to be nice quality stuff for a great deal.  :Smile: 

I will try the x-mas moss AND Sphagnum moss on the background. What would be best to apply them with in case the xmas moss ends up dying and needs to be taken off?
I just finished applying the first coat of Polyeurethane to the first two pieces of the background, still have one piece to go. Since it goes on pretty thick in the crevices(back says to apply a THIN, in all caps, layer) I'm going to let it dry overnight. It's unavoidable that it goes on thick in the crevices, unfortunately. Should be done with this background by tomorrow or the day after!!  :Smile:

----------


## Paul

Awesome deal! My only beef with Plexiglass is after a while it started to sag on me and created a potential escape route for frogs and a definite path to freedom for fruit flies. I have since switched to just using plain ole aquarium tops on any aquariums I keep. 

Be sure you put the same number of coats of the polyurethane on the back and sides of the foam. Water WILL get in between the foam and behind it. You don't want it to be exposed at all or it will start to break down and fall apart over time. Trust me I lived through it, its a nightmare that you want to avoid at all cost. So please take the time to coat the tops, sides, bottom and back with 2 coats minimum  :Smile: 

If mounting moss I either use Zip ties and cut it to length and with a bit of a point and bend it into a U shape over the moss or I will use floral wire and pin it to the wall in much the same way. I prefer the floral wire because it makes a much smaller hole in the foam. Or you could put some little dots of hot glue and press the moss into it.

----------


## BCollie

Mine is nice and thick so hopefully it won't sag, but if it does I'll hunt down some cat-proof glass, or polycarbonate. I laughed at your saying ". . .freedom for fruit flies." I can just imagine fruit flies running out of the tank and crawling all over your house!

One step ahead of you on sealing the foam!!  :Big Grin:  But I'm glad you said something, I can see how it would be very bad if I hadn't thought of that. This project is ALMOST done, I'm sooo ready to move onto the next stage of putting together my vivarium. Right about the time you posted, I had just finished sealing 5 sides(front, back, and 3 out of 4 edges...didn't do the bottom edge because it's resting on the bottom edge while it dries)...First coat, DONE on 5 of 6 sides. Before I go to bed, once the 5 sides are dry enough to rest on the ground, I will paint the bottom edges on all 3 boards. And repeat 2 more times, for a total of 3 coats. I should be done with this by late tomorrow or early day after tomorrow. Then I can move on to getting the soil put together.
Now, I do have some questions about the polyurethane...
1. The can says to sand between coats. Does this include when you're painting it onto a painted surface? It doesn't specify.
2. If I sand between coats should I do 4 coats instead of 3?
3. Do I need to worry about getting the poly into EVERY little crack like I did with both the paint and the first coat of poly? I mean, on one hand if I get it into every little crack every time, it might get way too thick and not dry(it's impossible to not get a thick coat into the cracks). BUT if I don't get it into every little crack, the paint may run on places I missed. I was sure I had gotten it 99% covered but as you saw after I sprayed the Krylon, I had obviously missed some tinnnyyy, invisible little cracks.

I think I will go with hot glue to stick the moss onto the background, it's the method that will show the least, I think.

----------


## Paul

I agree that gluing is probably best  :Smile: 

I know there is a fine line between doing a good job sealing something and not doing a good job. I would try to get it as evenly covered as you can. My guess is you didnt miss any spots with the paint, but the Krylon you were using has an acid type base to it and clearly made it through the paint. All it would have taken is a little microscopic spot and it would have been all over. 

The Polyurethane will smell awesome (sarcasm for really bad) for a few days or a bit longer. It is best to just let it air out or the smell seems to settle into the tank for the long haul. I had one tank that reeked because I rushed the moving past sealing the background. Building tanks is incredibly rewarding and fun for me, but at times it can be the single most aggravating part of my life lol.

All you can really do is do your best and learn from any mistakes you come across. Some mistakes wont be apparent for a long time until one day you notice a major flaw and hang your head and wonder to yourself if you will let the tank win this round. Some mistakes dont require the tank to be torn apart, but on more than one occasion I have had to remove a feature or completely rethink how I was going to do something.  


Sanding between coats seems excessive, I am sure it is to make sure the subsequent coats have a textured surface to adhere to. I will leave this up to your best judgment. I use the Krylon Fusion Polyurethane and haven't done any sanding between coats.

----------


## BCollie

Hmm...I have no experience with using polyurethane so unless someone chimes in with a "sand it!" or "don't sand it!" I will use a VERY fine sand paper to give it just a little bit of texture, but not enough to take it off. Seems like a good medium to me.  :Smile:  
Today I learned that a little poly goes a LONG way. I thought, "oh, those tinnyy cans of poly are going to not be nearly enough" so I bought either a pint or a quart...I don't know which. It was about the same size as the latex paint I bought to paint my 35 gallon tank rims/stand, inside and out, about the same amount of square footage as the 3 foam boards. Maybe a little more. But after I started using it I realized the tinnnyy can would have been MORE than enough, and that I now have enough polyurethane to last me the rest of my life! LOL! That stuff spreads really well, just a few drops covers an entire "rock".

Okay, let's play around with something different for a little bit. I'm comparing Josh's Frogs and NeHerp for ordering plants, which will be done as soon as
1. My tank is set up with the background and soil and wood in it
2. My aquarium filter sells
I'm advertising my filter for $275 but will go as low as $200(not advertising that part, I just said I'll haggle  :Wink:  ) so as soon as I sell the filter I SHOULD have enough to order both the plants and the bugs I need. Oh, and leaf litter if I can't find it locally. If I remember right it was recommended to me that I culture my fruit flies long before I get my frogs, so I'm wondering...
1. Should I order my fruit flies when I order my plants?
1.1 If so, should I order just a culture or two of flies, or should I order the 10-pack fruit fly culture kit including live flies?
2. Should I order springtails?
2.1 Should I order just springtails, or a springtail breeding kit, too?
If I am remembering correctly, springtails are a good thing to have in a vivarium...correct me if I'm wrong. 

This is all stuff I need have figured out sooner or later, and it's fun to get my mind off of the background for a while and think about some other aspect of the tank. I could be ready to order this stuff next week, or it might be months. It all depends on when my filter sells. 

P.S. I LOVVVEE the smell of Polyurethane. I'm sure my frogs wouldn't like it much and it probably wouldn't be good for them, so I'll let it dry out for a few days before putting it in the tank(or will let it dry until I can stick my nose against it and not smell anything, whichever comes first)...but gosh, I love the smell of stuff like that. Paint, gasoline, polyurethane, propane...I guess I'm just really weird! lol! Can I put a fan running against the boards when I'm finished to speed up the drying/de-smelly-ing process? I'm sooo ready to move on to the next step but I won't rush it if it's not a good idea.  :Smile: 
Back to comparing Josh's Frogs and NeHerp...seeing which is the better value for what I'm buying since both seem to be good sources.  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

**marks new expenses
EXPENSES as of Oct 7th
**2 large pieces of thick Plexiglass for vivarium cover, $6
**Enough polyurethane to last the rest of my life, $16
Non-toxic acrylic paint and paint brushes, $7
Clear, Matte Finish Krylon Spray Paint, $5
Fiberglass window screen $5
1.5cf river pebbles $15
Three 2x2 foam panels $16
Low Temp Hot glue gun&glue: $8
Quilt Batting: $8
Walmart razor blades for scraping glass clean: $5
Soil mixture(Orchid Bark, Sphagnum Moss, Peat Moss, Charcoal, Fir Bark): $74
Plants: $13
Total spent so far: $178
Remaining: $43

EXPENSES as of Oct 5th/6th, 2014
Non-toxic acrylic paint and paint brushes, $7
Clear, Matte Finish Krylon Spray Paint, $5
Fiberglass window screen $5
1.5cf river pebbles $15
Three 2x2 foam panels $16
Low Temp Hot glue gun&glue: $8
Quilt Batting: $8
Walmart razor blades for scraping glass clean: $5
Soil mixture(Orchid Bark, Sphagnum Moss, Peat Moss, Charcoal, Fir Bark): $74
Plants: $13
Total spent so far: $156
Remaining: $38

EXPENSES as of Oct 4th, 2014
Fiberglass window screen $5
1.5cf river pebbles $15
Three 2x2 foam panels $16
Low Temp Hot glue gun&glue: $8
Quilt Batting: $8
Walmart razor blades for scraping glass clean: $5
Soil mixture(Orchid Bark, Sphagnum Moss, Peat Moss, Charcoal, Fir Bark): $74
Plants: $13
Total spent so far: $144
Remaining: $50

EXPENSES as of Oct 3rd, 2014:
Starting budget: $167
Walmart razor blades for scraping glass clean: $5
Soil mixture(Orchid Bark, Sphagnum Moss, Peat Moss, Charcoal, Fir Bark): $74
Plants: $13
Total spent so far: $92
Remaining: $75

----------


## Paul

Through Black Jungle in the mix for your plant shopping. I actually like the choices at Black Jungle the best, but they are not the cheapest around. I prefer to buy any moss, wood, springtail cultures (if I am dumping them in a tank), and fruit fly cultures from NeHerp. I typically only buy Frogs, Springtails (if I am creating a breeding culture), and supplements fro Josh's Frogs. Black Jungle I have only bought Plants from.

I have bought Leaf liter from all 3. Leaf liter is leaf liter. NeHerp has thrown in extra bags of leaf liter out of the kindness of their heart, but they don't do that every time. 

A fan wouldn't hurt at all and I wouldn't consider it "rushing" more like speeding the boring drying phase along lol. 

Fruit Flies - I would order your first culture and culturing supplies about a month before you are ready to order your frogs. This will give you time to practice your culturing. If you are having issues with getting cultures to work (it isn't hard, but I failed at my first attempt) than you can delay the frog purchase and save yourself the stress of running out of food.

Springtails - I would buy a culture for the tank (just dump it right into the tank) and buy a culture to put in a breeding box. Your frogs will eat the springtails as they find them so you want to have some extras reproducing for you so you can dump more into the tank routinely. Ideally you add the initial culture to the soil 30days or so before the frogs. This will give them time to breed and have their first "boom" in population before the frogs show up to attempt mass genocide lol.

----------


## BCollie

NeHerp:
6 ferns
4 vines and trailing plants
4 ferns/terrestrial plants
4 Tillandsias 
12x12 NEHERP moss
18 plants + moss + FF and springtail cultures + leaf litter for $250(free shipping)
NeHerp PROS: Plants seem to be bigger
Moss is included in plant package
$50 cheaper
CONS: Cultures may not be well started

Josh's Frogs:
5 Bromliads
2 ferns or selaginella
2 vining plants
6 assorted tropic plants
5 ferns
20 plants + leaf litter + FF and Springtail cultures for $305($305 includes $57 shipping)
Josh’s Frogs PROS: Cultures are well started
Larger assortment of plants
CONS:
$50 more expensive
Plants may be smaller
Does not include moss

Between Josh's Frogs and NeHerp we have an obvious winner - NeHerp! I will compare NeHerp against Black Jungle after I get home from class today!
I'm also going to see if I can find Live Oak trees locally so I can save myself $45 and just collect/process my own leaf litter.

Can I go out and buy Krylon spray-on Polyurethane?
Krylon® Clear Polyurethane Coating
And use it for my last coat? IMO it is worth the extra $7 out of my budget to save myself 1.5-2 HOURS of applying the last coat. It is so time consuming and boring, I'd rather spend $7 and be able to get the last coat over with in just a few minutes, if that will work. I'll be near Redding(local town) and can stop by Michaels, Lowes, or Home Depot(etc) to pick it up.

----------


## Paul

Yes just make sure it is Krylon Fusion Poly. 

Black Jungle will be more expensive but they have a much larger plant selection the NeHerp and a better/more rare selection than Josh's Frogs.

----------


## BCollie

I'll take a look at it!Hmm...I don't think there's such a thing as Krylon Fusion Polyurethane, I only see plain Krylon Polyurethane?

----------


## Strider18

I found out the hard way with spray paint, it melts the foam! I had a final project due for a program I did and the whole thing shrank and crumpled up  :Frown:  I know how you feel about that, and now I know not to use spray paint or any thing that has a propelent in it on foam :P

----------


## BCollie

Does that include Krylon Polyurethane, I wonder? Because I'm looking and I'm not finding Krylon Fusion Polyurethane

----------


## Paul

I have used the Clear Poly on Spray foam, but it was covered in 3 layers of Water proof wood glue...

----------


## BCollie

Hmm...I guess it can't hurt to buy it and test it on the spare piece of foam I have, right?

----------


## BCollie

> First figure out the total number of cubic feet of substrate you need. Multiple length x width x height, make sure the units are in feet. Your tank is 16" wide, this is 16/12=1.25'. 
> 
> So if you wanted 3" deep substrate, 3/12=0.25', you'd need:
> 
> 5' x 1.25' x 0.25' = 1.5625 cu. ft. total substrate
> 
> If you wanted 6" deep substrate, 6/12=0.5', you'd need:
> 
> 5' x 1.25 x 0.5' = 3.125 cu. ft. total substrate
> ...


Words can't explain how much I love this post from page 3.

While my background is drying over the next day or two, I would like to get my soil mixture made up.

I decided I want 5" of substrate, so I did:
5' x 1.25' x ~0.42 = 2.625 cubic feet of substrate. 
I am doing the following "recipe":
2pt Tree Fernfiber(using FIR BARK as a substitute as recommended to me), 1pt peat, 1pt charcoal, 2pt sphagnum, 2pt orchid bark
Has 8 total parts. SO divide 2.625CF of total substrate by 4 for Fir Bark, Sphagnum, and Orchid Bark. Divide 2.625CF of total substrate by 8 for peat and charcoal.
2pts Fir Bark: ~0.66CF
2pts Sphagnum: ~0.66CF
2pts Orchid Bark: ~0.66CF
1pt Peat: ~0.33CF
1pt Charcoal: ~0.33CF

A 5-gallon bucket is approximately 2/3 of a CF, AKA .66 CF. I can take a full five gallon bucket of Fir Bark, a five gallon bucket of Sphagnum, and a 5 gallon bucket of Orchid bark. Half a five gallon bucket of peat, and half a five gallon bucket of Charcoal...put it all in a large tub and mix it up to make my soil/ABG substitute. 

Does this all sound right?

----------


## Paul

Without actually doing the math myself that sounds good to me  :Smile:  That is going to be a LOT of soil lol.

Keep in mind that your 5" of soil will be sitting on top of your 2 - 3" of drainage layer. This will equal 7 - 8" of height you are losing to the drainage layer and soil alone. Typically soil is done at 3". Not that doing 5" is wrong it is just a bit of overkill. 


Just trying to keep you thinking of the end result so you keep it all in focus  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

Hmm okay. I think what I will do then is follow what I've listed above, but only put in 3"-4" in the tank, and save the rest.  :Smile:

----------


## Josh

Extra's always best! . . . unless you have a lack of storage  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

> Extra's always best! . . . unless you have a lack of storage


I'm sure I'll have some kind of side-project going on with this vivarium such as growing baby plants, etc. so I'm sure the extra ABG substitute will come in handy! I'll just keep the extra in a five gallon bucket(or two..or three...) in my garage.

----------


## BCollie

An update:

I AM FINISHED WITH THE BACKGROUND. Thank goodness!! I think I've probably spent 18+ hours on it at this point. It was about a 12 hour project at the point when the foam started melting. Then I had to do 3 coats of polyurethane, at 1.5-2 hours per coat that's 18 hours. And that doesn't include the several hours I've spent running around to stores getting everything needed for it. So I'd say this is a 20 hour project. I think it came out nice, though - just a little bit too shiny for me, but not horribly. The polyurethane was satin, not matte, so that's why. I think it will have a nice wet-looking shine to it when it's in the vivarium. I still have a little work to do on it...but nothing that's going to be painstakingly boring like applying polyurethane for hours on end was. It is drying in the garage right now with a fan on it to get rid of the polyurethane smell. All that's left to do...put it in the tank, then hot glue it together with my low-temp hot glue gun. Note to self: Test on a spare piece of foam, first!!  :Smile:  Then after I have my substrate in, with the background hot glued into one big piece, I can add moss to it.

I went to Petsmart today looking for a humidity gauge(hygrometer) and walked away empty handed...so I went to Petco, which was right down the street, and found one for $6. It had good reviews on Amazon(4 out of 5 stars) so we'll see how well it works. If it doesn't seem to be working right I will order a higher rated one from Amazon. However I am looking on Amazon right now and it seems all the highest rated humidity gauges average 3.5-4 stars so maybe the one I got is as good as it gets. We'll see! I should pick up a second one to compare them against each other.

I bought a 1 gallon sprayer for misting down the vivarium until I can afford an automatic misting system.

I need more charcoal to make my ABG substitute...Orchard Supply Hardware had 2 bags, I needed 5. Thankfully they're getting in more tomorrow or the day after.

I found Sheet Moss!! They had it at Petco, believe it or not. It's in a baggie on my couch right now with all of my other stuff for this project. Now I have to decide what I'm going to do with it...  :Smile:  It was only $5 so I thought I'd buy it. It's a small portion, a bit bigger than my hand, but it's probably cheaper than paying shipping from ordering online. I'm not sure if I'm going to attach it to the background, wood, or just let it rest on the substrate...

I found some awesome Oak branches. Oak is safe to use in a vivarium, if I remember right? But...how would I sanitize pieces that are 3-4+ feet long?? I can't boil or bake them, obviously, they're too big.

----------


## BCollie

**marks new expenses
EXPENSES as of Oct 8th
**1-gallon sprayer/mister: $10
**Hygrometer $6
2 large pieces of thick Plexiglass for vivarium cover, $6
Enough polyurethane to last the rest of my life, $16
Non-toxic acrylic paint and paint brushes, $7
Clear, Matte Finish Krylon Spray Paint, $5
Fiberglass window screen $5
1.5cf river pebbles $15
Three 2x2 foam panels $16
Low Temp Hot glue gun&glue: $8
Quilt Batting: $8
Walmart razor blades for scraping glass clean: $5
**Soil mixture(Orchid Bark, Sphagnum Moss, Peat Moss, Charcoal, Fir Bark): $83
**Plants: $18
Total spent so far: $208
Remaining: $13  :Frown: 

EXPENSES as of Oct 7th
2 large pieces of thick Plexiglass for vivarium cover, $6
Enough polyurethane to last the rest of my life, $16
Non-toxic acrylic paint and paint brushes, $7
Clear, Matte Finish Krylon Spray Paint, $5
Fiberglass window screen $5
1.5cf river pebbles $15
Three 2x2 foam panels $16
Low Temp Hot glue gun&glue: $8
Quilt Batting: $8
Walmart razor blades for scraping glass clean: $5
Soil mixture(Orchid Bark, Sphagnum Moss, Peat Moss, Charcoal, Fir Bark): $74
Plants: $13
Total spent so far: $178
Remaining: $43

EXPENSES as of Oct 5th/6th, 2014
Non-toxic acrylic paint and paint brushes, $7
Clear, Matte Finish Krylon Spray Paint, $5
Fiberglass window screen $5
1.5cf river pebbles $15
Three 2x2 foam panels $16
Low Temp Hot glue gun&glue: $8
Quilt Batting: $8
Walmart razor blades for scraping glass clean: $5
Soil mixture(Orchid Bark, Sphagnum Moss, Peat Moss, Charcoal, Fir Bark): $74
Plants: $13
Total spent so far: $156
Remaining: $38

(see previous page for older expenses)

----------


## LisaGarcia

Put them in a CLEAN tub that's been freshly scrubbed with bleach and rinsed EXTREMELY well. Pour LOTS of rolling boiling hot water on them. That is what I had to do for the 3' bamboo pieces. Took 3 giant (I used the tamale steamer pot) pots of water to properly cover them all. 

As for the actual use of Oak, I can not say yea or nay. Someone else will have to help you there.

----------


## BCollie

I will have to see if we have a big enough tub!!

I am rinsing off the drainage layer(river rocks) right now as they're muddy. Got the first bag rinsed off, testing the hot glue gun on foam, then heading to class.

----------


## Paul

Not that you want to add any more coats to the background, but if the shine is a pain point for you you can do another really thin coat and sprinkle river sand or aquarium sand over it to help dull the look some and give it some texture. 

If nothing else for the wood you can douse it in a really strong bleach solution and then rinse it with tap water really well then rinse it with dechlorinated tap water really really good.

----------


## BCollie

Good idea. Can I just use a scrub brush dipped in a bleach solution?Do the river rocks need to be bleached? They were muddy but I rinsed them clean with the hose.

----------


## LisaGarcia

I bleached my rocks. You could also boil them if you didn't want to bleach them.

----------


## BCollie

I don't like to boil or bake rocks because there's a (small) possibility that it can cause them to explode. Not a chance I will take!  :Smile: 
SO if I use bleach it should be 1 part bleach to 10 parts water, so 1 gallon of bleach in 10 gallons of water? That sounds like a lot

----------


## BCollie

OH! Also, in addition to my last question...how am I supposed to drain the drainage layer when it gets full?

----------


## Paul

I always boil my rocks. Video tape the boiling. If it explodes put it on youtube and make some money  :Smile:  . The instances I have heard about rocks exploding is due to them being wet and then heated rapidly. The steam is what causes the explosive reaction. So boiling them removes any of those factors from the equation. 


Draining the drainage layer. Go look at Bills Solitude build. He shows off the way he drains his tanks. That is also how I do it, but lately I have been drilling my tanks and putting in a drain so it empties itself as it gets full  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

I already have the rocks soaking in 5 gallons of water with 1/2 gallon of bleach...so no boiling this time! 

I looked at his Solitude build and didn't see how he drains the drainage layer? Maybe I just missed it?

It seems like sticking a piece of black painted PVC pipe down into the drainage layer so it's poking just above the substrate would work...that way you can just put a siphon down into the tube and siphon out water, then cap it off when it's not in use. Or is there a better way to do it?

----------


## Paul

Bill uses small airline tubing, He puts a standard sponge filter down in the drainage layer and has his air tubing inserted into it. He also puts a small valve on the end of the tube outside the tank. The valve allows him to start his siphon one time and then close the valve thus preserving the siphon for when you need it again  :Smile: . Remember you want to keep you drainage layer around 1/2 or more of water (just dont let the water touch the soil). The small diameter of the airline tube makes it super easy to conceal.

----------


## BCollie

That would be an awesome thing to do on a smaller tank...I don't have the patience to wait for a ton of water to drain through airline tubing though LOL. I have a 8" piece of PVC pipe and a cap that I'm going to paint black, it should be sticking up just about an inch over the substrate and I'll hide it behind plants. I wonder...I need to put it through the quilt batting and fiberglas screen, can I cut a hole just big enough for it then hot glue the material around it so that it doesn't allow soil to go through around the pipe?

----------


## BCollie

Oh! And I'm about to cut my fiberglass screen, how many inches should it go up on each side of the tank?

----------


## Paul

I cut mine to go 1 to 2 inches up. Usually closer to 1

You don't need to hot glue it but you can.

----------


## BCollie

Okay, big update!!
The background had it's last coat of polyurethane last night, and I kept a fan on it overnight. By morning you could only slightly smell the poly, and only if your nose was right on the board. The fan did a good job!
Put the background in the tank, added just a little moss(not pictured) then went to class.


Started adding clean river rocks:



Finished adding the rocks(drainage layer):


Added more moss and did a quick hardscape that I really like, that will probably be the final position of the wood on top of the substrate.


My always-trying-to-find-something-to-herd dog staring into the tank, probably wondering where her mini sheep(AKA fish) went...she seems to be under the impression that if she focuses really hard, and stares long enough, something herd-able will appear.



Realized pretty quickly that this large tub wasn't large enough to mix up my substrate in.


So, I brought out an even bigger tub.


Got all the ingredients in, and then mixed them up.




Took my GIANT Golden Pothos out of its little pot and rinsed off soil, then realized it was a ton of clippings all put in one pot. Separated all the clippings as it was the only way to get off all the old soil. Rinsed the roots of really well and gave the leaves a quick rinse...and now it's sitting with its roots in water in a five gallon bucket. It'll be planted tomorrow or the day after, after I get my substrate finished.


And this is how the tank looks right now. Can I start calling it a vivarium yet? It's getting there!


The moss was added with non-toxic hot glue. I'm sure the moss will probably die where it got really hot/burned from the hot glue, but the rest of it should be fine. I put the top back on and will be giving the tank its first misting tonight to help revive the moss. Went out and bought five gallons of distilled water to mist the tank with...let's see how long that lasts me.

----------


## LisaGarcia

It's beautiful!!

----------


## bill

It looks fantastic Adri! You did a wonderful job so far!  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## Paul

Man I really do like that background. Glad you were able to salvage it, would have been a bummer if it had been completely ruined.

----------


## BCollie

Thanks guys!! I'm glad I was able to save the background, too. I woke up and the glass was all foggy. Is this because there's no ventilation right now? I just have two pieces of thick plexiglass as the top with no ventilation(yet)

----------


## Amy

Really amazing looking, great job!

----------


## BCollie

Oh and I'm hoping someone will see this before I head to school....if I am reading correctly I should wet my substrate before it goes in the tank. It needs to be wet enough that you can form a ball of it in your hand, but not so wet that it will be dripping any water. Is this correct?

----------


## BCollie

> Really amazing looking, great job!


Thank you!

----------


## BCollie

Okay, I think these may be my last two questions for today...1. Why is my tank glass so foggy, and how do I keep it from getting foggy? Humidity is at about 87%2. How wet should I make my substrate before putting it in the tank? I've looked online and can't find an answer to this, I can only find Josh's Frogs saying that you should wet the substrate before putting it in the tank. The one thing I saw was someone saying wet enough that you can make a ball out of it but no so wet that it's dripping any water...is that correct?

----------


## BCollie

Okay, I think these may be my last two questions for today...1. Why is my tank glass so foggy, and how do I keep it from getting foggy? Humidity is at about 87%2. How wet should I make my substrate before putting it in the tank? I've looked online and can't find an answer to this, I can only find Josh's Frogs saying that you should wet the substrate before putting it in the tank. The one thing I saw was someone saying wet enough that you can make a ball out of it but no so wet that it's dripping any water...is that correct?

----------


## BCollie

Double post, sorry...stupid phone is glitching

----------


## bill

> Okay, I think these may be my last two questions for today...1. Why is my tank glass so foggy, and how do I keep it from getting foggy? Humidity is at about 87%2. How wet should I make my substrate before putting it in the tank? I've looked online and can't find an answer to this, I can only find Josh's Frogs saying that you should wet the substrate before putting it in the tank. The one thing I saw was someone saying wet enough that you can make a ball out of it but no so wet that it's dripping any water...is that correct?


The humidity combined with temperature difference between in the tank and outside the tank is what is causing the moisture on the glass. It's a good sign that your humidity is in a good range. Keeping it clear in a big tank can only truly be achieved one way, circulating air inside the tank by means of a small fan. Ventilation will help, but it will also cut down on the humidity as well. My 125 looks just like yours 24/7. The only time my glad is clear is when i squeegee it down for pics. 

As far as the ABG, realistically, make it as wet as you want, excess water will drain down into your drainage layer. That's what it's there for  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## Paul

> Oh and I'm hoping someone will see this before I head to school....if I am reading correctly I should wet my substrate before it goes in the tank. It needs to be wet enough that you can form a ball of it in your hand, but not so wet that it will be dripping any water. Is this correct?



That's more for Pacman substrate. For ABG or similar you can wet it as much as you like prior. I soak mine good before I put it in. helps keep it compact and in control while I am messing with it. The excess water will drain down into the drainage layer by design anyway  :Smile:

----------


## BCollie

Ahh, thanks guys!

So it should go, from bottom to top:
Drainage layer(river pebbles)
Quit Batting
Fiberglass screen
Substrate
Leaf litter(don't have yet)

Correct? 

&&Will springtails be able to get through the quilt batting?

----------


## Paul

Yep that's correct! 

Yes they will be fine!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## BCollie

> Yep that's correct! 
> 
> Yes they will be fine!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Awesome!! Got everything in, and the Pothos planted. Didn't use the whole thing because it was so big. Pictures will come later today  :Smile:

----------


## Strider18

Any updates?  :Smile: 

0.1.0 Psuedacris regilla

----------


## Tobias

How is the tank doing?

----------

