# General Topics > Vivarium, Terrarium & Enclosure Discussion >  LED light system

## bshmerlie

Almost done with my frog closet and one of the last things is my lighting system. All the Exo Terra's I have came with the hoods but I really want to do an LED light system to reduce the heat. My frog closet, because its in a cubby, may be a heat issue in the summer time.  So here's the question. Is there a pretty good LED system in the $150 price range?  It seems like all the good LED systems seem to get in the $280 price range and up for a 48" for the rack.  Multiple that by three shelves and its getting a little expensive.  Anybody know of any cheaper units that are still strong enough for plant growth?  If that's not possible what is another low heat option in a more reasonable price range.  I want to get this in the next week or two before summer hits. ...Or should I just bite the bullet and buy the LEDs?

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## Don

Cheri,  I would check with a local electrical supply store.  You want a store that supplies the local electrical contractors.   If you have the option to mount strips above the vivs, then you should be able to install strips and then place LED as needed into the strip above the viv.

Usually the people at these places have a good electrical background and can direct you into how to do this cheaper than a store bought system.  
I never looked into LEDs for plants so not sure how much heat they produce as the ballast end of the bulb which is something you should question with them.

Sorry I didn't have better info.

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## ZachTurner

whats the tank space and Heights..?
Or do you already know how many lumens you need per each?

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## Michael

I've also been looking at LED Lighting.  The low heat and lower power consumption are something I would really like.  However all the LED Systems I've seen up to today with the exception of AAAFrogs brand new LED systems are very expensive.  If you look at what is available to reef setups they will give you a heart attack!.  AAAFrogs does seem like a very good option.  The strip setup designed for a row of 10 gallons as well as the one for the 40 gallon verts have peaked my interest.  The questions I have is what spectrum LED's are being used.  Is there a night light option would would be great for our nocturnal friends so we can see them!  Also what are the lumen's for the light fixtures.  How much lumen's are needed for viewing vs good plant growth.  What is the reach of the light in vertical tanks like the 40 gallon breeder.

I saw at my local Lowe's they are now stocking LED bulbs.  I have not been able to really research them yet.

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## bshmerlie

> whats the tank space and Heights..?
> Or do you already know how many lumens you need per each?


Well as far as I understand it 2000 lumens per square foot is the minimum and 3000 would be better.  18 inches will be the height of all the tanks.  The more I'm researching it the more it doesn't seem like LED's are the way to go. Yes they do sell some nice units but they get really expensive...really fast.  All the less expensive ones just don't seem to cut it when it comes to plant growth.  I also saw the ones at AAA Frogs and I'm a little skeptical.  I think I'm going to let others try that first before I fork over the $200 bucks for each shelf.  I was doing some research last night on the Marineland double bright LEDs and it seems like everyone went out and bought them in 2010 because they were so cheap but then latter it was determined they weren't optimal for plant growth. Anybody have any connections with the high quality cheap LED lights?  Yeah...I know cheap and high quality don't usually come together.  Just asking?  So where does that leave me? ....I guess CFL's.  Which ones do you guys think would be best for low heat and good plant growth for a 48 inch rack? or maybe ways to cool the closet will be my next course of action.....hmmm bathroom vents in the ceiling...thats an idea. :Big Grin:

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## Michael

I guess I would go with T5 bulbs then. You can get fixtures to hang under the racks and they come in 2, 4,6 build configurations. Then mix and match the type of T5 bulb you need. I have a T5 setup with 2 bulbs on my 55 gallon. I'd really like it to be 4 bulbs for higher plant lighting. But things seem to be growing. In fact I have to do some major trimming to allow more light in.

I'd like to see AAAFrogs put out some more videos of their lighting LED products. Show them over actual viv's so we can judge for ourselves.

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## bshmerlie

Has anyone bought AAA Frogs LEDs and tried them yet?  Although it is probably still too early to be sure about plant growth.  Hmm maybe I should email him for references. :Big Grin:

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## ZachTurner

> Well as far as I understand it 2000 lumens per square foot is the minimum and 3000 would be better.  18 inches will be the height of all the tanks.  The more I'm researching it the more it doesn't seem like LED's are the way to go. Yes they do sell some nice units but they get really expensive...really fast.  All the less expensive ones just don't seem to cut it when it comes to plant growth.  I also saw the ones at AAA Frogs and I'm a little skeptical.  I think I'm going to let others try that first before I fork over the $200 bucks for each shelf.  I was doing some research last night on the Marineland double bright LEDs and it seems like everyone went out and bought them in 2010 because they were so cheap but then latter it was determined they weren't optimal for plant growth. Anybody have any connections with the high quality cheap LED lights?  Yeah...I know cheap and high quality don't usually come together.  Just asking?  So where does that leave me? ....I guess CFL's.  Which ones do you guys think would be best for low heat and good plant growth for a 48 inch rack? or maybe ways to cool the closet will be my next course of action.....hmmm bathroom vents in the ceiling...thats an idea.


Yep.. Plants in seedling and clone stage require about 400-500 lumens per square foot. In vegetative growth they require about 2,500 lumens per square foot and in flowering, they can require upwards 10,000 lumens per square foot. 
While LED strips put out great lighting intensity it doesnt defuse well at all, making for poor lighting unless run alongside something like Metal Halides
A Lot of people have switched to T5s.
Setup prior to t5s most of our tanks we run dual 96w Power compacts. I should note Most of our tanks are Orchid Terrariums and run 7000–7500 lm per square foot. 
The Bathroom Vent is ingenious!.

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## AAAfrogs

SO I was emailed about this thread, and though I haven't read through it I thought I'd put in some input towards LED lighting. *There are a few things people get confused on, and understandable as many people dont understand what the terms relate to. First off: 
One: watts pertains to power drawn, not light output. IE: a 15W cfl may  be the equivalent to a 60W normal incandescent bulb in light output.  LUMINOUS INTENSITY pertains to the output of light, and light temp or  spectral peak (nm) is where the LEDs wavelength peaks on your spectral  graph.  you can have 2000lum/ft2 of the wrong spectral peak and your plants wont do anything except probably burn. 

So in our LED light systems we use 3 different LEDs (in the 10gal  version there are 20x 5mm LEDs.) Some warm, some cool temps. SO  different nm peaks. (there are many threads through out dendroboard that  go into different spectral peaks and what you would want for plants.)  IE: 430-450nm, 630nm-660nm. 

The Luminosity mcd (thousandths of a candela) rating on the bulbs we use  range from 1400 to 15000. Keep in mind that the viewing angle will  effect what this really means to you. IE: a 2000 mcd 30° LED puts out  just as much light as am 8000 mcd LED with a 15° viewing angle. We  played around with viewing angles A LOT in designing this as that is the  problem w/ Lighting a vert tank. Not the temps, not the light out put,  thats easy that can be done w/ any lighting type. But getting the light  to fill the depth and height of a vert is where the trick is. BUT then  you have to worry about shadows, and the array as far as placement of  the LEDs becomes a factor.

So one thing to really think about. Say you use t8s, can get daylight bulbs in t8s pretty cheap from places like HomeDepot. They work fine, minus the heat, power, size, and that you have to raise them above the tank or use fans to keep them cool. So why use them? Most people who buy CFLs, T8s, T5s whatever are over compensating. They are single spectral peaks so they make up for that fact with high intensity. Where if they had the dual spectral peaks that plants really need they can get by with half the intensity. 

Arguments against LEDs, well you have the fact that they dont disperse well.. that goes into placement, viewing angle, etc. So with a little design work like we have done you get the spread of light that is needed. Plant growth is all to spectral peaks thats where the power is at.

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## AAAfrogs

we have been doing a lot of video work with our new "pod cast" with episode 2 uploading tuesday. We plan on having more LED videos in future episodes.

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DonLisk

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## bshmerlie

I'm assuming you guys have done tests on actual tanks with plants...correct?  If so for how long?

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## AAAfrogs

We've had a LED light on a 10gal since we finalized our design, its doing quite well. We designed our LED light systems in collaboration with an electrical engineer, and Light Expert. Again we plan on having more LED light segments throughout our frogcast.

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## Michael

I'm looking forward to seeing this.  I believe LED lighting will play a major part in lighting for vivariums in the future.  Other then cost which will go down like all new innovations or products the benefit will be great.  Lower heat, lower power consumption, ability to control the lighting environment.

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## bshmerlie

I agree I think LEDs are the future.  And if Aaron's product works with his price point he'll have a jump on the competition.

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## Martin

I know it's not exactly what this topic is about, but do you think it's possible to use smaller blue LED strips as nighttime viewing light? The blue night lamps from exoterra and zoomed creates quite alot of heat, and very little light. Also, the light is much more purple than it is blue, and it really distorts the colours.

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## bshmerlie

Yes I have two blue LEDs in my red eye setup.  I only turn it on when Im watching them. Don't use it when the are first settling into their new home.

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## Michael

Sure it would not be a problem.  The jungle may be dark but there is moonlight visable there depending on the time of the moon's cycle.  Reefers use it to simulate the cycles in their setups.  

You really would not need very many leds to view them.

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## AAAfrogs

> I'm looking forward to seeing this.  I believe LED lighting will play a major part in lighting for vivariums in the future.  Other then cost which will go down like all new innovations or products the benefit will be great.  Lower heat, lower power consumption, ability to control the lighting environment.





> I agree I think LEDs are the future.  And if Aaron's product works with his price point he'll have a jump on the competition.


I agree. The issue with the cost isn't so much the cost of LEDs themselves, the diodes have stayed around the .90-1.00 mark for a while now. While the cost of transformers and switches also remain set, the real issue with the cost of our fixtures is the plastic. We probably do 75% custom sized and built LED fixtures, designing around misting systems, different exos and custom rack set ups. 

As for night lighting, this is something that we would do upon request. Its not even an issue as far as building into a unit. Where it gets fun, and probably something we'll finalize next year is programing the unit. Having it set up in line with a computer, and the flexibility of LEDs, you can mimic sun cycles through the day. Morning and evening more warm temps, mid day more cool, and both start with a dawn/dusk fade in/out... 

Our light expert designed and did the software programing for a bird breeder where the lights through out the room actually followed a path like the sun, and the temps fluxed through the day cycle. if you wanted to get real fancy we have the ability to program the computer to mimic the actual day of any spot on the globe, so thus you could pick a location in peru, and the lights would cycle to the dawn/dusk of that actual location. Fun stuff. But while fun, not really cost effective (at least not in a hobby environment, in an academic/research situation maybe)  

Right now, we're simply happy to be the first offering custom LED lighting for THIS hobby, who knows what will happen or where it will go, but its something that is needed, and we pride ourselves on our attempt to move the hobby forward with innovation.

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## Don

Now that slick AAA.   Can't wait to she that in action.
   Cheri...  you know you need it.  :-)

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