# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) >  Where.to.start..?

## froglover27

Just recently convinced the family to make a PDF terrarium.....I was just curious to know 'the necessities' for poison dart frogs. Also, what are good starter frogs that are hardy and not too shy?? Thanks!! :Frog Smile:  :Embarrassment:  :Smile:  :Big Grin: 
~Justine :Smile:

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## Don

Baasicly your going to crete a high humidity enviorement.  They will tolerate temp down to about 60 and no higher than 85.  Best to be between 80 and 82 in my opinion.  To keep the humidity up you would be using a full glass top for the tank or if using  Exo-Terra or Zoo Med enclosure, covering the top screen completely.  

Since you will be feeding fruit flies, you will need to bug proof a exo or Zoo Med enclosure since there are many places for the flies to escape around the doors and through the installed vents.

As for a frog choice, the most common starter dart is the Dendrobates Leucomelas Bumblebee Dart Frog.  Bold and does well in groups.

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## froglover27

> Baasicly your going to crete a high humidity enviorement.  They will tolerate temp down to about 60 and no higher than 85.  Best to be between 80 and 82 in my opinion.  To keep the humidity up you would be using a full glass top for the tank or if using  Exo-Terra or Zoo Med enclosure, covering the top screen completely.  
> 
> Since you will be feeding fruit flies, you will need to bug proof a exo or Zoo Med enclosure since there are many places for the flies to escape around the doors and through the installed vents.
> 
> As for a frog choice, the most common starter dart is the Dendrobates Leucomelas Bumblebee Dart Frog.  Bold and does well in groups.


Wait, so do they need any ventilation at all? And I will be feeding fruit flies. Just found out the LPS near me sells 'em :Smile:  Also, any idea of where to get a dendrobates leucomelas Bumblebee dart frog?? They are BEAUTIFUL!!! :Smile:

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## froglover27

Oh and also....can you give me any feedback for Dendrobates ventrimaculatus? thanks!!

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## Don

Dendrobates ventrimaculatusare is an intermediate level for keeping but if your tank setup is right, then they should be fine.

Many of these frogs are available through breeders and some of them sponsor this site so i myself would be looking there first.
You can also watch for a local or nearby reptile expo and then select some at the show.  Many of the sponsors also attend the expos so you can deal with them prior to a show for bringing along just what you want and held for you.
This would save you on shipping and possible shipping problems.  I haven't had issues myself but weather does rule shipping since they won't be shipped if its too hot for their survival.

As for ventilation, most dart tanks are completely closed up.  They don't require air flow like a tree frog and your occasional opening of the top or door to add flies or do maintenance is more than enough for them.   Now, some plants do like ventilation so some build in special fans to move air in and out of the tank without creating a place for the flies or frogs to escape.
I don't have fans on my tanks.

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## cbrousseau

I was in your spot this time last year  :Smile: . It's vary exciting isn't it? (and it can get addicting vary fast) I got 4 d.tinctorius matechos for my first frogs i got a group hopping that I would get a breeding pair witch i did and just got my first eggs. I love the tinctorius's because they are big bold frogs you look in the tank and they are always out so that was a huge plus. I wouldn't go with The smaller frogs like the thumbnails size ones because of the size.. They are beautiful but i don't know they don't do anything for me I like to be able to see my frogs you know? Just do your homework and read up before you do anything so you know what your diveing into that's what I did and everything went great  :Smile: 

As for ventilation like don said some people do the whole fan things I wouldn't worry about it for your first tank  keep it simple!

Good luck!!!,
cameron

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## Don

I agree.  Keeping it simple is will mean less maintenance and worry when your first starting out.

Look at some of the build journals.  There are several that members, including myself, have posted that will guide you through some pretty easy setups.

You will see many with cool backgrounds, you basically just need a good drainage layer, the top substrate, and plants. 
If your tank location has a normal room temp of 65 to 70 at night and 70 to 75 during the day, your all set to just add some day lighting and have some happy frogs.
Keeping humidity up is easy if you have the top almost completely closed up too. 


Your family will love having frogs that are out and visible during the day time hours.

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## froglover27

what tank size should I purchase for four at the most and is four an 'ok group' for Dendrobates Leucomelas? How should I deal with ventilation for plants, if i use a glass top? I was hoping to do a cool background like some I've seen on here...but where to start haha!! And as for the false bottom....Does it need a 'drainage hole'? Lastly, I have a large magnolia tree in my front yard...I have heard darts like the magnolia leaves. How can I make sure they're clean? A good rinse?Thanks guys!! You are the best!! :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:

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## Don

I like a 20 Long for a build for them since they are mostly bottom dwellers. 4 should but just fine in a 20 long.

I siphon my drainage area with a hose but you could drill and build in a drain hole if your ok with drilling glass.  
Magnolia leave can be boiled then dried in an over at about 200 degree but you have to watch them carefully so they don't bburn up.
I get mine from josh's frogs for pretty short money.  I use the live oak and sea grape leaves since the live oak is smaller and the sea grape has some cool colors.


 As for ventilation, Pick up the matching glass split canopy top and instead of using the plastic extention where a filter system would go, make a screen like the ones used for home windows.

Its actually simple and I bet you could even give the measurements to a Lowes employee and they would cut it for you.
When cutting the material take into consideration the corners. 

Here is a link to making the screen:  How to Make a Window Screen: 10 steps (with pictures) - wikiHow

Here is an example from the front of one of my verticals.  your would be just made to be placed on top.

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## froglover27

I have a tank that I'm not sure if it's a 15 long or 20 long, but how would you siphon if all the 'materials' are on top of it?? Oh goodness :Smile:  And also, are leucs terrestrial more than arboreal? I have a normal tank...not an Exo-terra...so the whole tank is glass except for the SCREEN top.....How should I deal with that haha. Gosh, you are so helpful! Thanks :Smile:  :Smile:

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## Don

Dart frogs areterrestrial   Sometimes they will start calling before lights on and after lights out.   

For drainage, I have a corner where I can lift the screen material that seperates the drainage area and substrate.  I use a aquarium siphon hose and have the collection bucket lower than the tank so i can get it draining with suction.   Stole plenty of gas when I was a kid.... only kidding :-)

You can use a pump like this one :  Walmart.com: Battery-Operated Liquid Transfer Siphon Pump: Automotive

Or you can have the tank drilled and a drain valve added.


As for what you have, that should be fine as long as you cover about 90 percent of the screen top with clear pleni-glass (available at lowes for about 6bucks and cut by them to your measurements free) or a piece of glass.
Just want to make sure enough light gets through the screen to service the plants needs.

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## froglover27

Could I possibly just somehow make a 'slope' into a pond from the bottom and just clean that every once in awhile? :Smile:  OH! I just found a plug in the bottom of mine! So I guess I could drain it that way?? And could it be plexi-glass or just regular glass?? Thanks for the replies!! :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Don

You can use plexi-glass but it seems to warp from heat.  If the Plexi is on top of the screen top then it works fine.  A glass top is stiffer so it handles the heat from a lighting fixture better.

Here is what the canopy glass tops look like and give easy access to the tank for feeding and maintenance.

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## Don

If you decide you need ventilation you could use one of these: Aquarium Cooling Fans: Zoo Med Aqua Cool Aquarium Cooling Fan AA-13

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## froglover27

Okay...So, this is kind of like my rough draft. I'm going to do a false bottom with LECA, ABG(maybe?), and leaf litter(with magnolia leaves) Oh, and these aren't really any specific plants! They are just random :Smile:  Any input would be awesome!!!! :Smile:  :Smile:

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## Don

Small bromeliads placed into the background facing out vise up will work great.  The frogs will use them to hide and sleep.  They will also lay eggs in them.
I say small since many will way outgrow the tank but there re tons of varieties that stay sort of small.

Cryptanthus is also another good choice, likes damp soil  and takes some time to outgrow the tank.  The frogs like to use these to climb onto branches and will also use them to perch on when watching for flies.

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## froglover27

So, does my design look okay?? And I was going to go with bromeliads anyway!! :Smile:  Also, is Cryptanthus zonatus okay to use?? What about ferns?? And how can I insure that the plants are free of fertilizers?? Thanks!! :Smile:

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## froglover27

Is there  place to buy canopy glass tops? Or is it cheaper to make them?? :Smile:  :Smile:

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## Will

So I use these to top all my Dart Frog enclosures.  Aqueon® Versa-Top™ Hinged Glass Top - Lighting & Hoods - Fish - PetSmart .  They work pretty good.  It would be cheaper to buy and have the glass cut at Lowes but you will have to buy a hinge for the lid to make feedings easier, I have only found the hinges online. That is why I buy the aqueon lids.  They are a little more expensive but they can be dropped on top og the enclosure right out of the box.  I have no ventelation in the top of my Dart enclosures.  The more plants you have the more oxygen you will get.  Another thing to consider is also the more plants you have the more your Darts will be out because they will feel safer if they can hide easier.  I would recommend the ABG soil mix as well as a springtail culture.

  The spring tails are great.  They serve a few purposes, they can be a food sorce for the darts as well as they are janitors in the tank because they love to eat any mold that maybe developing in the tank.  Another good note is after you have the enclosure setup let the eco system run for about 2-3 weeks before adding any Darts.  This will give you time to make sure that all the plants will work and get a good root before your little guys get added.  It can be really stressful to them if you are replacing half of the plants in the tank right after you put them in.  I have been there!

Hope this helps.  Buyer beware, Dart frogs are highly addicting!!!!!!

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## froglover27

> So I use these to top all my Dart Frog enclosures.  Aqueon® Versa-Top™ Hinged Glass Top - Lighting & Hoods - Fish - PetSmart .  They work pretty good.  It would be cheaper to buy and have the glass cut at Lowes but you will have to buy a hinge for the lid to make feedings easier, I have only found the hinges online. That is why I buy the aqueon lids.  They are a little more expensive but they can be dropped on top og the enclosure right out of the box.  I have no ventelation in the top of my Dart enclosures.  The more plants you have the more oxygen you will get.  Another thing to consider is also the more plants you have the more your Darts will be out because they will feel safer if they can hide easier.  I would recommend the ABG soil mix as well as a springtail culture.
> 
>   The spring tails are great.  They serve a few purposes, they can be a food sorce for the darts as well as they are janitors in the tank because they love to eat any mold that maybe developing in the tank.  Another good note is after you have the enclosure setup let the eco system run for about 2-3 weeks before adding any Darts.  This will give you time to make sure that all the plants will work and get a good root before your little guys get added.  It can be really stressful to them if you are replacing half of the plants in the tank right after you put them in.  I have been there!
> 
> Hope this helps.  Buyer beware, Dart frogs are highly addicting!!!!!!



Okay! So I will plan on buying the top :Smile:  And do i have to culture my own springtails out of the tank as well?? Thanks!! :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:

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## Don

Any good fish shop should have canopy tops available and I agree that buying is much less expensive then making one.

I have creeping fig in with my Leus along with lemon button ferns.  Your design is nice and just keep in mind that you want to not take up a ton of the back wall so you have room for the Bromeliads.

As for Springtails, I buy a starter culture from Joshsfrogs and watch his video on using the culture.  Its a starter culture so you have to get the culture going and then add them to the tank.  You will want to culture your own fruit flies though.  It is so easy and once you have done it a few times in only takes a few minutes to mix up a new set of cultures.

I buy Joshsfrogs and black Jungle fly media and excelsior since both are easy to use and both produce a ton of flies.

Not sure if I gave you this link but here is the build for my Leus in a 20 long tank.
http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...pic-heavy.html

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## Will

Thanks Don for answering the spring tail question.  Joshsfrogs is a great resource and seems to always have what I need in stock.  I used to drive around town to try and find what I needed to avoid paying for shipping but then I found that I was spending twice as much as shipping in gas.  Joshsfrogs also has some of the fairest prices that I have found on the net.  Make sure you keep up on a schedule with your fruit flys.  If you miss making a culture you will find yourself frantically driving around trying to find someplace that sells them.  This one I speak from experience.  Trust me, after you pay overnight or 2nd day shipping on flys once and then you learn real quick!

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## froglover27

Thanks soo much for the link!! GREAT INFO :Smile:  :Smile:  and can't I just stock up on cultures from petco??? Thanks guys :Smile:

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## Will

You do not want to stock up.  A fruitfly culture will generally last about 30 days.  Around 30 days the media in the bottom will be almost depleated and the culture in a lot of cases will start to develope mites at this point.  I have 4 darts and soon to be 6 and I do a culture every 10 days, but with the new ones I am looking at getting I maybe doing 1 every week.

Also if you buy them from Petco they are $10 a culture and you will go through at least 2 a month which will be $20.  For $20 you can get 10 containers, enough media for 10 cultures and an actual culture to start the process.  When you have the needed items trust me, it is easier then driving to Petco to get the fruitflys.

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## froglover27

okay...I guess I won't be doing that :Smile:  So I can just buy the 'stuff' necessary for a culture from like josh's frogs or something?? Thanks I'm glad I didnt do that :Wink:

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## Will

This is what I would get!  Melanogaster Culture Kit WITH Flies (SMALL KIT) - Culturing Kits | Josh's Frogs They are out of them at the moment, but this is a good start.  

After you have cultures going you can then get this Melanogaster Culture Kit WITHOUT Flies (SMALL KIT) - Culturing Kits | Josh's Frogs it is the same kit but without the flies since you will be able to use the flies from your cultures to keep the new ones going.


Watch this video How to Culture Fruit Fly Cultures - YouTube, it will give you a really good start on doing fruitfly cultures from Joshs Frogs.

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## froglover27

> This is what I would get!  Melanogaster Culture Kit WITH Flies (SMALL KIT) - Culturing Kits | Josh's Frogs They are out of them at the moment, but this is a good start.
> 
> 
> After you have cultures going you can then get this Melanogaster Culture Kit WITHOUT Flies (SMALL KIT) - Culturing Kits | Josh's Frogs it is the same kit but without the flies since you will be able to use the flies from your cultures to keep the new ones going.
> 
> 
> Watch this video How to Culture Fruit Fly Cultures - YouTube, it will give you a really good start on doing fruitfly cultures from Joshs Frogs.


Okay thanks :Smile:  I was just wondering...Do you HAVE to use ABG jungle mix?? And also I currently have a culture going....so could I just buy the one without flies currently?? Thanks :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:

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## J Teezy

basically if you have a fly culture already all you need is to buy one of joshsfrogs kits without the flies and start your own off the flies you already have.  I personally would go with this kit DELUXE Melanogaster Culture Kit WITHOUT Flies (BIG KIT) - Culturing Kits | Josh's Frogs  It has everything you need including mite spray.  I suggest getting a sterilite 3 drawer bin.  What you do is take some paper towels and spray the mite spray on the paper towels and let it dry.  Once it's dry line the inside of each drawer with those paper towels.  Now you can store your cultures in there.  Change out the paper towels every month.  What i do is keep my freshly started ones in the top drawer.  after about 1.5 weeks they get moved down to the second drawer.  After 1.5 weeks there they go to the bottom (i just pull the drawers out and swap them around.  Your culture cups are reusable please don't pitch them after one use.  Clean them out good with hot water.  Some people use a very diluted bleach solution to clean them but i just use hot water.  To clean the lids i run hot water over them and lightly brush the fabric with a toothbrush.  You'll get many many many uses out of your cups and lids.  Get in the habit of starting cultures once a week.  I only have 2 Leucs atm so i only make 1 culture a week, sure its more flies than i need but you never want to be in a bind where you don't have backups in case one or two cultures crash.  When my cultures hit 30 days they go in the freezer over night to kill everything in them then thaw them out and dump it in the trash (i dump them in plastic bags i get at grocery store so i can immediately take them out to the dumpster).  After 30 days they smell pretty gross.  You definitely want to seed your viv with springtails and you don't have to culture them outside the viv as well but it wouldn't hurt to.  I bought a starter culture from Joshs which i then moved to a bigger container like he shows in his video.  The culture took about 1.5 weeks to really get booming.  Once that happened i just dump some in the viv once a week, this way i have some in the tank and some outside the tank as well.  Never know when a nearby frogger may need some springs!!!  I'm also now culturing Spanish Giant Orange Iso's which i will be adding some adults in my vivs later on to help clean up.  Springtails like to eat mold, Giant Oranges will eat frog poo!

Like mentioned, it's pretty silly to buy flies from the pet store.  They are way overpriced.  You can make cultures for under .50 a pop.

A properly set up viv pretty much takes care of itself.  Lights on timers and an automatic mister, and drain makes life easy.  I spend less than 30 minutes total a week taking care of one viv.  I feed 3 times a week and clean the visible poo and glass once a week.

You'll love the leucs, they are great frogs.  They will hunt around on the ground for food and even climb the background.  Mine like to hang out on the background alot and when they are hungry they come down to the ground and root through the leaf litter for springs if it wasn't a fly feeding day.  One of my leucs started calling today and it's a nice call.  Very pleasant if you ask me.

For your first tank keep everything simple.  I've made a couple detailed rock wall backgrounds that took alot of time, but really in the end they all look the same once the plants take over.  My next one will be much simpler (Great Stuff and cocofiber most likely, or as we call it "dart frog brown" background).  If you are geting leucs i suggest making some little ledges on your background because they will climb it.

The one thing i tell anyone looking to get into darts is this.  Get good lighting and a mistking misting system.  You'll thank me later.

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## Will

I am not sure if you used Eco Earth or something similar if the plants will do nearly as good.  That is all I have ever used and my plants seem to always go crazy in it compared to my tree frog tanks where the plants in Eco Earth have not really grown at all.  It is a great mixture of soils and mosses to hold moisture for the plants but not enough to rot roots.  Plus the ABG mix is an ideal breeding ground for the springtails, they seem to love it.

As far as the cultures, if you already have a culture then the kit with out the flies will be fine.  You will need to read the directions carefully on the Fruitfly culture and follow them on your first culture.  There is an extra step if the flys came from a different culture then Joshs Frogs.

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## J Teezy

the extra step is adding the yeast.  If your original culture comes from Joshs you don't need to use the yeast as the flies going into your new culture will carry some in.  I started with joshs flies and use his media and have never used the yeast and get lots and lots of flies.

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## Will

Good to know, although I have been using Joshs media for about a year so I forgot what that step was I just remembered that there was an extra one.  When I started I was not sure if the yeast made a difference or not so I just did it.  

I do like your advice about doing the back up culture.  I have had a couple cultures crash over the last year but I have the luxury (although I should not rely on it) of having 3 shops within 5 miles of my house that carry fruitflys.

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