# Frogs & Toads > Tree Frogs >  EMERGENCY: White's Tree Frog VERY SICK--may not make it thru next 24hrs

## caerulia

I've got 3 white's tree frogs in a large/tall vivarium with lots to climb on & a water feature. I've had them for over a year in the same setting & I do a complete break-down of the enclosure every 3 months and replenish with fresh/dechlorinated water every few days. One of my frogs has not eaten in 5 days, though food has been offered. The toes on its back feet are very stiff & it seems unable to move its feet. Its thighs & belly are VERY swollen, as if with water. Today abnormal white spots appeared on its dorsal area & I wiped an old shed skin off of it that had been clinging on for a couple of days now. It is also very lethargic & when flipped over it tries to right itself but is unable. Worst of all--I'm a dead broke college student, unable to take it to a vet until the 1st of the month, at which point I'm sure it will already be dead unless someone can PLEASE HELP ME!

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## Frogger00

Possibly sounds like edema? Do you have pics?


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## irThumper

Hello, Caerulea... sorry your frog is not well!  :Frown: 

I know you are anxious to get help, but answering these questions will help folks here to figure out just what the problem might be:

QUESTIONS

1----what 'kind' of frog is it ( what species)
2----please include a photo of the frog 
3----Please include a photo of the frog's current enclosure
4----size of enclosure ( W" x D" x H" )
5----# on inhabitants - ( if there is another frog --- is there a size difference ? )
6----has or was the frog kept with a different species or with any other tank mate 
7----is there a new tank mate----was the new tank mate quarantined 
8----what is the typical humidity level
9----what temperature is maintained
10---what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
11---describe the enclosure lighting ( very specifically)
12---describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc)
13---what kind of water is used
-----for misting
-----for the frog's soaking dish
-----is de-chlorinator used / what brand
14---material(s) used for substrate - be very specific 
15---enclosure set up:
-----if recent - describe how the enclosure was cleaned
-----plants( live or artificial) if artificial plants are used are they plastic or fabric
-----describe wood, bark , and background materials
16---when is the last time the frog ate
17---have you found poop lately
18---how often is the frog fed
19---what size feeder is given
20---what other feeders are used as treats
21---what is the frog's main food source
22---do feeders roam free in the enclosure or is the frog bowl fed
23---vitamins - what brand and how often
24---calcium - what brand and how often 
25---was the frog without calcium for any period of time
26---approximate age of the frog
27---how long have you owned the frog
28---who cared for the frog before you
29---is the frog wild caught or captive bred
30---how often the frog is handled -- are gloves used ( what kind of gloves) 
31---is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
30---has or was the frog properly quarantined (yes or no)
-----for how long
32---has the frog been treated with any medication:
-----for what
-----name of medication
-----for how long
-----what dose 
-----was medication prescribed by a herp vet

My recommendation for now is to get your afflicted frog into a quarantine enclosure by itself. A 10 gallon tank would be ideal, use plain white damp paper towels for substrate and provide fake plants to hide in and a dish of water that will reach up to your frogs chin. Keep him somewhere quiet where his temps will be close to 75-80F and make sure his paper towels don't dry out but aren't soggy.

There are many different reasons a frog might be bloated or have problems moving his limbs. I'm not sure about these white spots... did they come off when you removed the unshed skin? Did they seem to be a secretion? A frog can tox-out, or be constipated, impacted, or have disease... 

I know these questions are in the list up above, but when is the last time you saw your frog poop? (Would be hard to determine in a community tank unless you actually saw it) What is your substrate? Do you dust the crickets with Calcium/D3 powder and a multi-vitamin? What do you clean the tank with?

Other than moving him into a hospital tank I would give him a warm honey soak-- dechlor water, just barely warm to the touch, 3-4 drops of NATURAL real honey per cup of water... the water level should reach the frogs chin when he is sitting up. If he is unable to maintain and upright position or has paralysis I would support him in the water with your hand. Soak him for twenty minutes then rinse him off with barely warm fresh dechlor water to get the honey off. If he is just constipated this will often help the frog poop, usually while they are still in the water. 5 days is not a hugely long time for a frog to not eat, but with the other symptoms it is a concern, you could try using Fluker's Repta Boost to get some nutrients into him. 

Please answer the questions up above, thanks! Hope your frog pulls through!

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## caerulia

QUESTIONS

1----what 'kind' of frog is it ( what species) *Australian White's Tree Frog*
2----please include a photo of the frog 
3----Please include a photo of the frog's current enclosure
4----size of enclosure ( W" x D" x H" *17"x17"x24"*
5----# on inhabitants - ( if there is another frog --- is there a size difference ? ) *3-same species-same size*
6----has or was the frog kept with a different species or with any other tank mate *no*
7----is there a new tank mate----was the new tank mate quarantined *no/no*
8----what is the typical humidity level *humidity meter broke / mist 3-4 x daily*
9----what temperature is maintained *about 85 degrees*
10---what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure *NatGeo uva & uvb basking bulb*
11---describe the enclosure lighting ( very specifically) *1 bulb directly over center of enclosure above mesh top, fake plants attached to inside of top mesh to dilute the heat coming in, on a timer 8am-8pm*
12---describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning, etc) *complete break-down every 3 months & fresh dechlorinated water added every 3-4 days*
13---what kind of water is used *dechlorinate water in mister and in tank (API tap water conditioner)*
-----for misting
-----for the frog's soaking dish
-----is de-chlorinator used / what brand
14---material(s) used for substrate - be very specific *small river rocks on top of mesh on top of clay balls for filtration*
15---enclosure set up *water feature using a filter as a pump, lots of grape vine wood pieces, lots of frog moss, hanging moss balls & hanging wood*
-----if recent - describe how the enclosure was cleaned *cleaned 1 month ago--everything taken out and scrubbed/rinsed (no chemicals)*
-----plants( live or artificial) if artificial plants are used are they plastic or fabric
-----describe wood, bark , and background materials
16---when is the last time the frog at *6 days ago (giant mealworm*
17---have you found poop lately *no*
18---how often is the frog fed *every other day (longer if given a pinkie mouse)*
19---what size feeder is given *large crickets, giant mealworms, superworms, wax worms, occassionally a tiny pinkie mouse*
20---what other feeders are used as treats *none*
21---what is the frog's main food source *I mix it up, but mostly mealworms (which I now am stopping because I now know the issues it can cause)*
22---do feeders roam free in the enclosure or is the frog bowl fed *fed by hand--I put the item in my palm & they eat it*
23---vitamins - what brand and how often *none*
24---calcium - what brand and how often *Fluker's calcium w/vitamin D*
25---was the frog without calcium for any period of time *no*
26---approximate age of the frog *1-2 yrs*
27---how long have you owned the frog *15 months*
28---who cared for the frog before you *PetSmart*
29---is the frog wild caught or captive bred *captive bred*
30---how often the frog is handled -- are gloves used ( what kind of gloves *maybe once a week for a few seconds (wash hands before/no gloves)*
31---is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area *low traffic in corner of room*
30---has or was the frog properly quarantined (yes or no) *no--no light/heat source available for a quarantine tank*
-----for how long
32---has the frog been treated with any medication: *no*
-----for what
-----name of medication
-----for how long
-----what dose 
-----was medication prescribed by a herp vet

*I did the honey water soak last night before I saw your suggestion on my thread (I'd found it elsewhere). I did it last night exactly as you said eventho I hadn't seen your suggestion yet. I had to hold his chin up during the honey soak last night because he was so weak. His back thighs were so swollen that I thought the skin might actually burst open--this morning there was almost no swelling in the thighs  ...His belly is still a bit swollen, back legs are still stiff and he's still lethargic. The white spots were gone this morning, too. He was sitting in the same spot in the open that I left him last night eventho the basking bulb had been on for an hour already. I did another honey soak this morning & didn't have to hold his chin up this time. I put him in a shady spot that isnt too moist but not too dry, either. I'm considering giving him some ReptiBoost today. No longer going to feed them mealworms or superworms. I also did a water change last night, rinsed the whole enclosure, and scrubbed/rinsed all of the props before I did the honey water soak.

**NOT ABLE TO ADD PICTURES BECAUSE IT KEEPS SAYING "NOT A VALID FILE" EVENTHO ITS A .JPG *

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## Amy

For starters, the tank is very small for 3 whites tree frogs.  They also appear to have a very fatty diet.  A picture would be very helpful in figuring out what is going on.  Sounds like edema, but not sure of the cause.  Is the heat bulb off at night time?

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## Josh

Yes, I would agree that a picture would help a lot, both of the enclosure and of the frog.

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## caerulia

As I said before, it will not allow me to post an image. I have saved the images as a .jpg but every time I try to upload them, the page says "this is not a valid image file".
This is the best I can do--its a link to an image of a person standing by the tank that I have for size comparison
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xX_spcxAV14/maxresdefault.jpg

Also, they do not have a fatty diet. They get wax worms maybe once or twice every couple of months and they get one giant mealworm or superworm every other day. They get tiny pinkie mice maybe once every couple of months and they are not fed for 3-4 days afterward. When I feed them crickets they get 2 every other day. The food items are always dusted with the Fluker's calcium with vitamin D3 & they do not eat off of the substrate to prevent them ingesting foreign materials

I also already stated that the uva/uvb bulb is on a timer from 8am-8pm

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## Frogger00

Honestly, you sound like you are doing a pretty good job with your frogs. A lot of people just jump right into this hobby without any research whatsoever, but your frogs are being well taken care of. Sure, there is a few small errors that others have pointed out, but These get fixed along the way. We all make some mistakes in the hobby, but I feel you should be congratulated for the things you are doing right. Honey baths are really helpful. I would continue with them if it seems to be helping. I also like to give my frogs a variety in diet. Wouldn't it be boring to eat the same thing all the time? Good on you. 


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## caerulia

Thanks! Through all my research last night I discovered that frogs can get impacted from all the chitin in the mealworm/superworm skin, so I will be limiting that to an every once-in-a-while food item and giving them mostly crickets instead. I don't like giving them crickets so much simply because they die so quickly before I can feed them all out & its money down the drain. But I'm planning to get a different substrate so that I can just toss all the crickets in once a week and they can have fun without me worrying about them eating small rocks or moss. I'm simply not understanding how my tank is too small for 3 frogs. I think that's a matter of opinion. Personally, I don't see how almost 7,000 inches of space is too small. They have tons of props and even hanging props so that they can utilize the whole space, too, not just the walls and floor. And they've been in this setting for over a year so I also don't see how it affects my frog's current condition/

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## Amy

I'm trying to clarify things to get an idea of what is going on.  A lot of us have multiple bulbs/lamps/heaters etc on the tank so I was just clarifying that I was reading correctly, that there was only one bulb and it was only on for 12 hours.  What is the night time temps when it is off?  Big temp swings could contribute to issues.  

If you would like to send me a picture so that I can try to post it for you, feel free to pm me and I will give you my email address.

As for the fatty diet, yes the diet has been fatty.  Mealworms are fatty and you said that is the main food source.  (I did read that you will be changing it up, but that's what it says.)  Waxworms are fatty, super worms are fatty, pinkie mice are very fatty.  When you wrote that no feeders were being used as treats, I assumed all of these were regular foods other than the mice that you specified were occasional.  Primary food source should be roaches, crickets, or night crawlers (can get them at walmart, make sure they are night crawlers and not earthworms.)  I'm thinking there might be an obesity issue, we've seen it here before, but without a picture I can't assume that.  

I'm sorry your frog isn't feeling well, hopefully we can get this figured out.

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## caerulia

I have an image of the BMI scale for tree frogs and mine are a bit plump but not classified as obese. I am a zookeeper and the zoo where I work feeds our frogs the same thing that I feed my frogs and they aren't obese, either. I cannot get roaches because they spray for pesticides almost everywhere in my city and my frogs refuse to eat earthworms. And I don't get crickets often because out of a bag of 20 I usually only get to feed out maybe 8 and the rest die eventho they have access to cricket gel and cubes. I only feed them one mealworm/superworm every other day, which gives them 36 hours to completely digest that item before they are fed again, which is why they aren't obese. At night the house gets no colder than 76 degrees. I would ask our herps supervisor for help with these issues but she is mostly unapproachable these days because she's also the general curator and is very busy running the zoo. I don't think you'll have an more luck with the pictures than I do--they comply with the proper file type and file size but simply won't load.

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## Frogger00

I just wanted to say that while pinkies are a bit fatty, they are also an excellent source of calcium. 


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## bill

I would agree with what was said above,  in that:
a) 3 white's in an 18x18x24 is too many. It is way too large of a frog to cramp into that small space. 2 would be the max I would keep i that size enclosure. Matter of opinion?  Yup, but most long term keepers agree on this. However, it is highly unlikely  that over crowding is causing the issue with the frog. 

B) poor diet. Too much fat, too much chitin. 

You never mentioned, is the frog in a quarantine tank? Have you had a fecal exam done, or planning to do one? The one thing that concerns me is that you said you wiped an incomplete shed off the frog that was on there "for several days". Normally, incomplete sheds are due to a lack of humidity in the enclosure. Seems like there are multiple issues going on. Pics would definitely be helpful. Get pics to Amy ASAP to have them uploaded, or grab tapatalk and upload them via that. There are no issues with uploading via tapatalk. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Josh

Use photobucket.com for pictures if it doesn't work. I just posted some pictures today. Just upload to photobucket, and then click on the "IMG" link to the right of the uploaded picture and paste it into the post.

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## caerulia

A poor diet would be only feeding them the same thing constantly with no variety & no supplements. And I don't understand how one little 3" frog can make that big of a difference in a tank--did you even look at the picture in the link that I posted? The tank is plenty large. My frogs have been in the same enclosure with the same varied diet for over a year now--neither of those things are the cause of the health issues. So, can you please stop being so rude & accusing me of being a terrible pet parent and actually focus on the frikn issue that I am asking about??

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## Amy

Everybody here IS focusing on the issue and trying to help you.  You are so concerned with not being labeled with having done anything wrong that you are refusing to accept any advice or help.  We ALL have made mistakes, that doesn't make us poor pet parents.  What makes a poor pet parent is refusing to take advice from people who have been in the hobby a long time and put the research in.

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Bruce, Cliygh and Mia

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## caerulia

[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]

*​PHOTOBUCKET WORKED  THANKS!!*

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## caerulia

Well just as soon as you stop criticizing me and actually give me some advice then I will be glad to take it into serious consideration. However, telling me that I'm feeding a "poor diet", when I've already mentioned that I'll no longer be using mealworms as a main food item, and saying that the enclosure is too small, when its the only enclosure I've got aren't actually considered "advice"--its simply criticism. Now if you would like to actually give me some of that advice that you previously mentioned then I would be very grateful!

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## bill

> A poor diet would be only feeding them the same thing constantly with no variety & no supplements. And I don't understand how one little 3" frog can make that big of a difference in a tank--did you even look at the picture in the link that I posted? The tank is plenty large. My frogs have been in the same enclosure with the same varied diet for over a year now--neither of those things are the cause of the health issues. So, can you please stop being so rude & accusing me of being a terrible pet parent and actually focus on the frikn issue that I am asking about??


Excuse me? I was being far from rude. You really do not want me to be rude, trust me. I also said that I didn't believe the issue was caused by over crowding. Lose the tunnel vision and maybe you will see people HAVE been trying to help you. But I no longer will. I hope your frog makes it, I really do. Good luck. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## caerulia

I don't have tunnel vision--I am just very frustrated that people are focusing on things that aren't actually related to my frog's issues. He most likely has edema--now how the heck do I fix it? Do I just keep doing the honey water soaks? Anybody actually care to help??

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## Lija

Okay.. I've never thought I see Bill mad lol 
how in earth you were able to just come here and get on people's nerves so fast?

 Now seriuosly... there are lots of experienced keepers, professionals and even some vets here, some of those people were trying to help you, instead of listening you got all defensive. If you are zookeeper and work for a zoo as you say, you should know what appropriate animal keeping practices are and what is the difference between keeping animal for it to barely survive and to thrive. 

I'll read through the thread and honestly have only one question, do you honestly want to get help here? Or you know it all and just want us to confirm what you already know in your mind? 

If you want to get help, i suggest you reconsider your behaviuor and listen to what people are trying to tell you. 
We all here love frogs and spend a lot of time offering a free advice for those who need it, trying to save as many frogs as we can, and it definitely gets on our nerves when somebody like you is coming to get help and instead of listening being rude and defensive. I can tell you honestly, I open this thread and started reading wanting to help, but not anymore, not until you are willing to accept help. And again if you are zookeeper as you say, you should know in exotic animals every small detail counts, everything is related.

ultimately these are your frogs and your decision.

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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## Cory

If you think its edema you more then likely have to bring your frog to vet. There is two types of edema one being bacterial and the other is due to kidneys shutting down due low temps or trauma. I know this because my pacman just passed about a month ago from edema due kidney failure, and if it is the kidneys its not irreversible. You can make him feel better but he will more then likely bloat again if its kidney failure. And the way to make him better is figuring out which one he has because he will need antibiotics so a trip to vet will be needed if this is what you really think it is.

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## caerulia

I wouldn't have been so defensive if people hadn't continued to criticize me on issues that had already been addressed. I don't know Bill but his 1st message (in my opinion) was pretty rude and criticizing & not at all helpful. If so many people on here are keepers then they have experience educating zoo guests & should have better communication skills and do a better job at not making people feel like they are being attacked, which is how I felt thanks to Amy & Bill.

Now, Cory: you seem to actually want to help & not just criticize! Do you have any advice for someone who does not have the funds available to get to a vet until March 1st? I plan to continue the honey water soaks but is there anything else that I can do to keep my little one going until I can get him to a vet?

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## Josh

Let's put it this way, Amy and Bill are some of the greatest people we have on this forum. They've literally helped hundreds of people out. We trust them, they are extremely knowledgeable, and calling them rude and unhelpful, I just can't wrap my head around that one. We do want to help, and they were really trying to help you out, and especially the frogs. Believe me, its better to swallow your pride and listen to their advice, because it will help you and your frogs out in the long run. Just my 2 cents

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Cliygh and Mia 2, deranged chipmunk, LilyPad, tinkgirl77

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## caerulia

Josh, Had they actually given me advice then I would have thanked them. However, all they did was criticize me on issues that had already been addressed. They seemed more interested in judging than in helping. This is not a matter of pride--& you can't exactly expect me to automatically respect people who remain faceless and whom I've never spoken to before. Perhaps if I had known them already or at least known their personalities better then I might have taken their comments differently. However, as someone who has never spoken to them before I had no context in which to apply their personalities to their words. To me they sounded rude and judgmental and unhelpful. Perhaps instead of continuing to insult me you could possibly try to see things from my perspective. Or, hey--here's a really novel idea: how about if you stop making this into a petty personal issue and focus on the animal issues instead?

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## Amy

You can consider this your first warning.  Your disrespect for the members of this forum is unacceptable.  Everyone here has tried to help you.  Josh was very friendly to you when your attitude didn't warrant his kindness.  This thread has been locked as it was going no where except showcasing your disrespect.  I hope you can change your tone and find help for your frog.

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## Paul

Another thing to consider and always keep in mind when dealing with the internet. We are dealing in a text only environment. Nearly every emotion you read in a post is the emotion you implied to be there. It is best to take things with a grain of salt and assume people are here to help unless they prove other wise. Part of offering advice is gathering information and offering criticism and advice to help narrow down the issue. Hope your frog recovers and lives a long happy life.

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Cliygh and Mia 2, monster, tinkgirl77

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