# Frogs & Toads > Frogs >  Northern Leopard Frog stopped eating!

## kymillers

My daughter has two N. Leopard frogs, raised from mail order tadpoles.  The bigger of the two morphed about 6 months ago and has been eating dusted crickets very happily until about 18 days ago.  We moved him into a new tank so that the newly-morphed smaller frog could have the smaller tank.  I expected him to be stressed by the move, and took great pains to set it up exactly like his old tank, but he just hides in his coconut and will not even go into the water.  His previous routine was to hide during the day, and out prowling and swimming all night.  He completely ignores his crickets, even when they crawl over his head. I have tried meal worms and well with no luck.  I have been using a turkey baster to keep his skin moist, but don't know what else to do for him.  The only real difference in the two tanks is that the small one had a full hood with a flourescent bulb, and the new one has a screen cover.  At first I had an incandescent bulb in a clamp lamp on him about 13 hours a day; I changed it to a UVB bulb as soon as I could get to town to get one.  I keep part of the screen covered with a towel, and mist his tank frequently.  The temp is about 75-76 degress during the day and drops to about 72 at night.  He has plenty of moss to burrow in, and that's what he does; stays burrowed and will NOT eat.  I am sure he is not eating or getting into the water, even at night, since I keep an accurate cricket count and the water is obviously not fouled (no moss or stool at all to clean up).  He would take crickets from tweezers before, but not now.  He used to sing at nigt (woke me up reguarly at 4 am!) and would answer my alarm clock, but he has been totally silent since his move.  He looks fine - his eyes are bright and his skin looks nice with no obvious wounds or problems.  He just won't move or eat!  How much longer can he go without food?  I'm worried he is dehydrated; should I force him into the water?    I really don't want to lose this guy - he's such a nice frog.  The new little guy is doing very well and eating like a horse.  Any help is appreciated!

----------


## Tom

if the temperature has dropped recently he could be attempting to hibernate i think but it could also be the water. if the waters hardness/ other compounds in the water have changed rapidly it could have shocked him.

----------


## kymillers

Nope, no difference in the water at all; we've used bottled Spring water from the beginning.  We do a 1/3 water change 2 or maybe 3 times a week.  The other tank measures about the same temperature as the one he's in now, so I don't think that's it either.  The light issue is the only real difference, other than the more open top (screen versus full hood).  

It's odd that he appears to be so healthy and bright eyed, but yet will not eat.  I did notice a little while ago when I was misting him that his color is more brown today than his usual nice green.  He also "jerked" a little bit when I misted him, and he usually doesn't move at all.  

I'm sure worried about the little guy!  Thanks for your reply.

----------


## Tom

Maybe he misses his buddy  :Frog Smile:

----------


## kymillers

They have not been together since they were tadpoles.  The bigger frog morphed in about 8 weeks, but the second tad took over 8 months!  I didn't think she was ever going to become a frog!  

Hopper is about 2" long now - he ate so well and grew so fast!  The newly-morphed frog is only about 3/4" long.  I'm afraid he might decide to start eating again if I put them together - and eat her!   :Frog Surprise:

----------


## John Clare

> Maybe he misses his buddy


Frogs are not social animals - they do not miss each other or care for each other's company.  The only times they willingly come into contact are at breeding time and if they happen to be sharing a favourable refuge.

Regarding Ky's problem, I think the frog is just stressed by the change in environment (that lid versus light "sky" is a big deal).  Many classic Ranids are nervous and finicky.  I think this is what you're encountering.  Give the frog time.  If he definitely doesn't eat then you may need to consider a vet visit - the stress may have caused him to become sick.

----------


## Tom

Sorry i wasn't serious this is a thread that helps find good vets

http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...list-vets.html

----------


## kymillers

It's already been more than 18 days - how long can he safely go without  eating before he starves?  I'm trying desperately to find a full hood for his tank, but no luck so far.  I'll keep trying.  (This is turning into quite an expensive endeavor for two little tadpoles!)  I appreciate all your help!

Oh, and Tom, I did pick up on the humor.   :Big Grin:

----------


## Tom

Well i hope you enjoy the forum and expand on the hobby And that your N Leopard Frog will be better

----------


## coltiger

It sounds like he is going into hibernate mode. I had green frogs that were active and singing then suddenly became silent and inactive.

My experience with northern Leopards is limited but I did find they didnt like the water as much as my green frogs. They did prefer cover and were alittle skittish. 

I hope your frog stays in good health :Smile:

----------


## Tom

I thought that they hibernated in water though

----------


## kymillers

No, I'm pretty sure they burrow to hibernate, and only when the temps are consistently dropping (ours are steady).  We keep the lights on them the same number of hours daily, although we do have the blinds raised in the room during the day/evening.  They are not very close to the window, but are in view of it.

Can ANYONE tell me how long he can go without eating before he starves?

----------


## Tom

It matters how much he ate last time he did, his overall health, how much he has moved. But i believe he could almost last over a month.

----------


## Kurt

Well, I have a greater hatchet-faced treefrog that I bought back in April and it only started eating in August. I thought for sure that it would've starved long before August came around.

----------


## Tom

Wow now i am not so worried about my Malaysian Leaf frog.

----------


## kymillers

> Well, I have a greater hatchet-faced treefrog that I bought back in April and it only started eating in August. I thought for sure that it would've starved long before August came around.


Wow!  I wonder if our little guy will last as long.  He's not green anymore; his color is now a dull brown, although he is still green in his "crevices" such as the bends of his legs and under the edge of his belly.  He still doesn't really look thin, but he's not as plump as he was.  I've been "basting" him 3x a day with spring water from his tank, and keeping his spagnum moss moist.  I just booted him into the water, and he's still there.  That should help him stay hydrated.  Before that I tried to feed him a wiggling cricket by tweezers again; again not interested.  

He has his old background covering the back, and black construction paper on both ends, and half the front of the tank covered in vines.  The screen top is also half-covered with a towel.  I'm about to drive 100 miles roundtrip to the nearest pet store and get him a full hood for his tank.  It's the absolute last thing I know to do to try to make him feel safe and secure enough in his now month-old home that he might start eating and singing again.

(He's beginning to make me mad!  Can you tell?)

----------


## Tom

ouch 100 miles. mines like 3 miles round trip. Well i hope that helps

----------


## Kurt

Is there any skin sloughing? In other words, if you handle him do bits of skin come off in your hand?

----------


## kymillers

Well, I don't really handle him - I know it's not good for him.  I use the end of the baster and gently nudge him on the rear and he'll usually move away.  I don't see any evidence of any skin sloughing - I'll go check.  

Nope, nothing.  He still looks healthy and bright eyed, except for his coloring no longer being bright green all over as he was before.  Also, his respiration seems a little bit elevated, but that might be my imagination.

----------


## Kurt

Ok I think I have ruled out chytridiomycosis. My next thought is we may be dealing with a respiratory infection. In this exam you will need to pick the frog up, put it to your ear, and listen. Do this in a quiet room. What you don't want to hear is crackling when it breaths. Crackling indicates a respiratory infection and the animal needs to be put on antibiotics immediately if you hear it. Which means a trip to the vet.

----------


## kymillers

Ooookay.  He's a bit of a challenge to hang on to, but I'll give it a go later this evening when everything calms down around here.  Hopefully that's not the problem!  

I really appreciate your help.

----------


## kymillers

Well,

Instead of picking him up and stressing him more, I put my hand in front of him and listened to his back with my stethoscope.  It took a minute to get situated, but after a minute or so I did hear what I assume was normal breath sounds. Definitely no crackling or popping, just a very quietsoft airy sound.  He didn't really appreciate the cold stethoscope, but he didn't attempt to run away.  Just flattened down as much as possible and tried to be invisible.  That's his usual behavior.

Since he isn't wild caught, how would he contract any sort of infection?  I guess he could get a respiratory infection from stress, but not chytridiomycosis, right?  We're very careful about hygiene.

----------


## Tom

Your stethoscope?  you a doc?

----------


## kymillers

Hah, no.  I just have a LOT of health issues, including high blood pressure and hearth arythymia.  Thus, the stethoscope.  You wouln't believe how useful it is for lots of things non-medical!  I did work for a vet for several years as a tech, and I have owned just about every type of animal imagineable at one time or another.  Looks like my daughter has inherited my love of God's creatures.  Not my boys; they could care less about anything breathing except our Golden Retriever (and various people, of course).

----------


## Tom

Have you ever had sugar gliders? Kurt what else is there that it could be?

----------


## Kurt

I am still not ruling out a respiratory infection, as stethoscopes are really no good in this situation. I had one and found it to be useless with amphibians and reptiles. My vet confirmed that. The best way to get an accuarate listen is to put the animal up to your ear.

----------


## Tom

hmm interesting why do you think that is?

----------


## kymillers

Hmm, I also wonder why that would be.  He's just so stressed already, I hate to bother him by picking him up and fighting with him.  He's not exactly calm.  I'll give it a go, though.

No sugar gliders, but I always wanted some!

----------


## kymillers

Well, here's the latest on the little hard-headed phib at my house:

I did pick him up and hold him to my ear (it was quite an adventure keeping him there, but he did seem to enjoy my hair!) and finally he was still enough for me to get a good listen in. Nothing. No rattling or any sounds at all. That's good, right?

He's still not eating at all, and I'm really getting tired of removing drowned crickets every morning. They're apparently too dumb to use the duckweed to keep from drowning, and insist on getting into the water even though they have gel available. Hopper still appears okay; not too thin, and not any paler than he was a week or so ago. 

I did get the full hood and a nice UVB light, so he's all set environment-wise. I'm done. I just don't know what else to do for him. The pet store guy (who is supposed to be a phib expert) talked me into trying some Fluker's Repta-Aid Critical Care Formula - Insectivore/Carnivore Emergency Aid. He acted like it was a miracle cure (at $9.99 for a 50 gram pouch, it better be!), but I told him I was concerned about being able to administer it. Needless to say, my fears were not unfounded. That dude is NOT going to open his mouth, period. I was afraid I was going to hurt him trying to poke the end of the doser into his tightly clamped lips. He did open his mouth one time very quickly, and I might have gotten a dab in, but that was about it. After about 10 minutes of poking and struggling, I gave up. I was sure the stress would kill him, but nope, he seems the same two days later. He is still quite strong, and even threatened me and smacked at me a few times while I was trying to administer the med. But when he got so distressed that he began to vocalize, I decided that was enough. He stayed in the water most of the night after that, breathing very rapidly for about 20 minutes before calming down. I played some northern leopard frog vocalizations for him while he calmed down, and he was obviously listening, but never answered. The hydration probably helped him, but he hasn't retuned to the water since then (two days). 

It's up to him now. I'll continue to keep him warm, moist and comfortable, and supply crickets, but otherwise, I'm done. There are simply no herp vets anywhere around here (believe me I've exhausted all possibilities), and I've already spent over $100 on this guy. 

I've always wondered if impaction is possible, but he has had one or two stools since he quit eating and is not bloated, so I don't think that's it. There is some gravel in his substrate, but I just can't pay for xrays even if I could find someone to perform them. My husband is about to throw me, my daughter and the frog out the door!  :Frog Surprise: 

I really hope he decides to eat eventually, but I'm not optimistic. I'm just worn out with it. On the up side, his little brother is eating well and growing very quickly!

Thanks for all your help. I'll let you know if anything changes!

----------


## Kurt

No rattling or any sounds at all is very good. What might be the case is he/she is settling down for the winter. If thats the case, then there are two courses of action. One, you increase the photo-period to 12 - 14 hours a day. This may make him/her snap out of it. Or the other course of action is to cool him/her down to about 55 -58F till March. So if you have a cellar or a garage, he/she gets to live there until spring. 

Administering oral meds/supplements is never easy, its even worse with turtles and salamanders. I use these dental floss picks to pry open mouths. It works fairly well, just wished I had a third hand to make it easier.

----------


## kymillers

He's already getting 14 hours of UVB light daily and has been all along (except for the first few days, when it was 14 hours of incandescent light daily).  He is inside his coconut half-shell buried under moss, but the light is on the tank.  I did take his shell away yesterday and left his extra-deep pile of moss in his favorite corner.  

You don't use the pointed end of the flosser, do you?  I'm guessing the rounded part?  You're right - three or even four hands would help a lot!

As far as cooling him down:  Our basement is fully finished and part of our living area, and our garage would be too cold.  We live in KY where the average mid-winter temps are in the teens andn sometimes below zero.  I can't think of anywhere except maybe the fridge that would be a possibility.  That's about 38 degrees or so, but I don't know if I can handle the thought of refridgerating my child's pet!  If he is ill or still just shocked from the change of environment, won't cooling him down possibly kill him?

----------

