# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  Please Help! Really Concerned!

## sarahanita

I tried the Samurai Japan pacman frog food that I saw on this forum and it is going well for my fantasy frog however I think I made it a bit too wet for my baby albino. I had to force feed him by carefully prying open his mouth and sticking it in since it has been so long since he ate. However I think I made it a bit too wet for him and it kind of stuck to the roof of his mouth. Now (2 days later) I noticed there was lots of dirt in his mouth so I opened it again and got it out with a qtip gently, could have been dirt and the pacman food. I am worried because he seems very lethargic and kind of half dead. Is there anything I can do to make him feel better?

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## morgan

Warm soak in chin deep water.  

1st response for many surprise reptile ailments... Warm soak.

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## sarahanita

I'm not sure if that will do anything since he's just kind of chill, he's always been chill but this is a bit much. Only way I can get him to move is to flip him over and he flips himself back. He is also holding his mouth open a tiny bit I think? I can see his lip I never noticed so I'm not sure if it's open or not. Still think a soak?

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## sarahanita

He was soaking, looked like he was drinking, he did it again but more aggressive an I got worried so I picked him up, and I'm right he won't close his mouth all the way. If I touch his chin it'll close, and his jaw is working since he bit me, any help please I'm worried!

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## IvoryReptiles

Do you supplement? Do you give it vitamins & calcium? The slack jaw may be due to a lack of calcium or it may be that his mouth is irritated. 
You asked for advice and when you got some, you argued it........put a drop of honey in the water for soaking, it will give the frog a bit of energy. The remedy for too wet Samurai food would be to adjust the ratio of powder to water.....or simply add a little powder to it to even out the texture. Simple solution.
Have you tried feeding earthworms?

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## sarahanita

I didn't argue it, I was asking if they still thought a soak could help given more information, I did give him a soak. I don't supplement calcium because I feed butterworms because they are all I can get in the area. I do a multivitamin powder once a week as well. I obviously know to use less water next time.

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## Ra

Well, if its that young and hasnt eaten "in so long" and you only feed them butter worms and a multivitamin once a week, there are a few strong possibilities here. For one, it probably has a series of very serious nutritional maladies. Frogs that age need to eat every day or two, and need a calcium supplement every other feeding to promote all that bone growth going on. A droopy jaw is a sign of metabolic bone disease. 
 You also may have injured its jaw trying to force feed it. how did you pry its mouth open? Ive had to force feed babies, and the response to me sticking the corner of a playing card between their lips was that they opened their mouths rather than having to pry anything. Also, a nutritional malady may have caused the jaw bones and muscles to be weakened, thus furthering the possibility of injury where a healthy frog would have been fine. 
 Having sticky food stuck in its mouth for two days probably didnt help the situation. But, a healthy frog should still have been able to swallow it as Ive fed sticky pacman food to my frogs several times.
 Looking at the picture, the shape of the mouth appears injured...what did you pry its mouth open with?

 You cant get nightcrawlers in Canada?

 Pacman food has worked great for my frogs from the get go.

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## sarahanita

I offer him food everyday the SUPPLEMENT is once a week, I don't do calcium because Butterworms are high in calcium already. I used a credit card to gently get his mouth open, I was very careful with him and did the same with two other frogs who are fine.

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## sarahanita

Also what makes you think injured in the shape? Nothing seems out of shape compared to before this happened, I can provide pictures if you want, it just seems open a bit :S

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## morgan

You flip him over to make him move.

You've pried his mouth open numerous times.

At this point, just leave him alone.  Probably stressed to the point of shock.

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## sarahanita

I flipped him over to get a look at his stomach for signs of impaction. "Pry" was a poor choice of words, I am very gentle when doing so, and when I was getting the dirt etc. out of his mouth he was opening it willingly himself.
I come to this forum for help and advice but I feel like I'm simply being attacked by everyone replying here except the first reply!

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## Bruce

Butterworms are high in calcium, but these frogs eat other frogs in the wild, and gettin a lot more calcium from their bones, far more than they'd get from butterworms.  These frogs have an unusually high calcium need. Vitamin supplements are good once a week, so you're on the right track there, but this does look like MBD to me.

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## sarahanita

If it is MBD is there anything I can do? Also do I still supplement vitamins and calcium with the pacman frog food?

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## Bruce

The pacman food has everything they need in it. I use repashy calcium plus. It's a calcium and vitamin supplement in one and is in low doses for everyday use or every other day use.  I use this formula do I don't miss a day or accidentally give too much and tox them out. 

As for treating MBD, I honestly don't know... I know they make emergency high dose liquid calcium, I'm not sure if that's the same thing reptiboost is.  You could try that. At this frogs young age though, if he does pull through his growth my be stunted or possibly some jaw issues. I'll do some research for you on treating MBD.

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## Bruce

Would you happen to know if his back legs are swollen or are weak?

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## sarahanita

They look like they always have since I got him, Normal although they don't tuck under quite as much as most frogs. Here is a picture
Wasabi on MacBook Pro 2 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

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## Bruce

I think this could be MBD.  You've said earlier he seems lethargic/having troubles moving, no calcium supplements (don't blame yourself, I can see where you were coming from w the butterworms), not eating, and the back legs from that last pic seem a bit off to me.

I want someone like griff to chime on though and give his two cents, but I would say this is MBD.  

What are your enclosure conditions? How big is the tank, day/night temps/humidity, what kind of substrate and how deep is it, are you treating his water with reptisafe or something similar?

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## sarahanita

He currently lives in a small breeder box since he is small, it is a lot of space for him. Substrate is about an inch and a half thick and it is coconut husk mixed with a little peat moss. day temps are low 80s, night temps are mid 70s, humidity remains around 70-80%. I do not treat the water because I know of others with pacman frogs who keep them with the water from this city with no issues and have for years. 
Do you think I should try feeding him a small ball of food with extra calcium mixed in it?

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## Bruce

First off, make sure your peat moss is 100% fertilizer free, that could be the issue. I know a lot I members here, including myself, swear by Eco earth and use this as their substrate. 

Also, start treating his water. The chlorine in city water and even some metals from well tap water can cause your frog to tox out. Your friends frogs may be ok but all frogs are different, and most will suffer. A good brand to use is reptisafe. It also adds small amounts of calcium and other rehydrating electrolytes to the water as well as removing chlorine and trace metals.

Can you post a picture of the enclosure?

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## sarahanita

The person who doesn't treat the water is the owner of a pet store who has had many frogs with no issue, but I will look into a conditioner. Here is a picture of the enclosure, I also have this water additive I'm wondering if you think giving him a bath with a bit of this might help?

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## Bruce

Trust me, you will only run into problems if you don't treat their water. 

This is what I use, you only use a few drops each time and lasts a long time


Second, you may want to consider removing the moss completely.  Long strands like that can cause impaction.  Even if you feed outside of the tank, these frogs have been known to snap at anything that slightly moves, including the moss. I would suggest completely cleaning out the enclosure to ensure there is no chemicals and replacing it with eco earth. 

My adult female's set up.  


The product you're showing is for oral use I believe... You can use some, I'm sure it won't hurt, just read the instructions. 

This is what I use for all of my frogs, I swear by the stuff. 


I would seriously consider making these changes, they can only help at this point.

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## Bruce

After reading that bottle again, I don't think it has calcium in it? If not I wouldn't use it, I think I would only stress him out and at his small size, run the risk of toxing him out.

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## sarahanita

I have calcium supplements for my other reptiles, one with D3 and one without D3, I didn't see the moss as an issue right now seeing as he is and has always been a picky eater, barely ever snapping at anything. When he gets his strength back and starts eating well I will take the moss out. The liquid I posted is supposed to go in drinking water but I figured since they absorb through their skin as well a bath with a little might make a difference? I'm not sure. I'm torn between leaving him alone for the day, giving him a bath with the supplement, or trying to get him to eat the food with a bit of calcium mixed in  :Frown:

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## Bruce

I would soak him with that supplement then.  Just be sure to treat the water!  And definitely at some point swap out the frog moss for exo earth.

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## sarahanita

I am currently soaking him and he is doing what he did last night that has me worried. Every few minutes he does this (see video). is it normal? is he drinking?
Wasabi - YouTube

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## arielgasca420

See if you can contact GrifftheGreat. He usually suggests an unflavored pedialyte soak, but what you have may be sufficient. the honey that was suggested is also a very good idea, but I am not sure if raw honey is better because it does not have chemicals and it is not processed. 
there is a brand of calcium supplement and it is supposed to be a "life saver" product. The brand name is drawing a blank for me right now,but when I can remember I will let you know right away. 
I just wanted to ad that pet stores can some times have a very good facade. Someone who is new to frogs may think the enclosure looks nice, but someone who is novice will see that everything is wrong. Pet store workers are human and therfore make mistakes from time to time. 
I wouldnt blame yourself or think that anyone is attacking you. we all love frogs on here and sometimes get emotional when we hear and see one suffering.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

All advice you've been given is spot on and needs to be followed without question. If his mouth is open and he can't close it then why are you not supporting his head to keep it out of the water?

You must ALWAYS treat the water used for your frogs especially if its well water or tap water. Assuming that it is fine is foolish. The chemicals and heavy metals are very detrimental to their health and will poison them. Lack of a calcium supplement within the frogs diet is the culprit here. I would also go out and buy some Fluker's  Repta-Aid(Repta-Boost) and use it orally and place a two scoops in his bath. Buy some UNFLAVORED PEDIALYTE and prepare a bath at a 10 to 1 ratio. So for every 10 ounces of Luke warm DE-CHLORINATED WATER add one ounce of UNFLAVORED PEDIALYTE. add two scoops of the Repta-Aid(Repta-Boost) to the bath and while you support him be sure to pour a little over his back as well. Soak fir 20 minutes After that bath have a second bath prepared of only Luke warm DE-CHLORINATED WATER to rinse the Repta-Aid(Repta-Boost) off his skin. so no bacteria or fungus tries to grow on his skin. Repeat this bath every other day and keep us updated on his progress.

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## arielgasca420

repti-aid! thats the product I was thinking of

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## sarahanita

It's not that im questioning the advice I just like to know why I am doing what I am doing. For example what will this bath stuff do? What happens if the only store in the area does not carry repta-aid?

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## arielgasca420

from what I have read previously the unflavored pedialyte will provide electrolytes for the frog giving a sort of energy boost. the honey is a natural cure for humans and animals. raw honey serves as an antibacterial and provides vitamins for the skin. It is good for animals (and people like me) with very sensitive skin. 
If you cannot find it at the store than utilize the resource of online shopping. I know you can find it on amazon so there should be no further difficulty to obtain this product

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> It's not that im questioning the advice I just like to know why I am doing what I am doing. For example what will this bath stuff do? What happens if the only store in the area does not carry repta-aid?


The bath will provide electrolytes, vitamins, calcium, and nutrients that your frog is lacking as of now. It will provide a boost of energy and assist in your frogs recovery. Honey does as Ariel said and also acts as a natural laxative. 

When you get the Repta-Aid(Repta-Boost) For oral doseing follow the chart that comes with it for proper doseing. Two scoops in the bath as per my directions. Try this and keep us posted.

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## DVirginiana

idk if you have well or city water, but I wouldn't trust even treated well water for my frog.  In addition to metals that water purifiers might not get out, well water can have CRAZY high bacterial concentrations.  I've done lab tests on well samples, and I would seriously worry about it causing infection in a frog with a weak immune system.

Next time you soak your frog support its head or something... If it's got MBD to the point it can't keep its jaw closed and has weak legs that can't hold it up correctly, I'd worry about water getting into its respiratory system.

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## Ra

> The person who doesn't treat the water is the owner of a pet store who has had many frogs with no issue, but I will look into a conditioner. Here is a picture of the enclosure, I also have this water additive I'm wondering if you think giving him a bath with a bit of this might help? Attachment 37110Attachment 37111



 The terrarium looks completely soaked, its hould be moist, not soaked or it becomes unhealthy. Most people will tell you to take the moss out because of impaction risk. I use moss but clear all of the moss away from the frog before feeding.
 Thats a supplement not a water conditioner, but yes, soak it in that solution to help it back to health.

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## lumpbump

> The person who doesn't treat the water is the owner of a pet store who has had many frogs with no issue, but I will look into a conditioner.  Attachment 37110Attachment 37111


Sorry your frog is sick, but just be careful and do as these guys recommend. They have lots of experience which is why your asking them. Sometimes pet stores are more focused on making money than keeping animals properly. Also there may be factors you don't know about such as the untreated water may be well or spring water he has access to not tap. Either way I hope your frog gets better and you get a definitive cause so you may adjust your husbandry/ care so it doesn't happen again.

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## sarahanita

Talked to someone experienced with pacman frogs here and was advised to give soaks with calcium and the liquid i posted earlier. I started this tonight although I doubt it will make a difference. He seems pretty much dead already. When I pick him up he doesn't move :'(

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## Heather

There is still a chance at recovery. I'm not sure how I missed your post, but follow the above advice and he may pull through. Trust me, through advice here and my vet I have now recovered 6 frogs ill from the pet store and another heading in that direction with the start of symptoms from low calcium. It only took my pac 3 days for the tetany to stop with soaks and calcium supplements. 

Good luck! We are hoping for you! You can still pull him through this.

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## Bruce

> There is still a chance at recovery. I'm not sure how I missed your post, but follow the above advice and he may pull through. Trust me, through advice here and my vet I have now recovered 6 frogs ill from the pet store and another heading in that direction with the start of symptoms from low calcium. It only took my pac 3 days for the tetany to stop with soaks and calcium supplements. 
> 
> Good luck! We are hoping for you! You can still pull him through this.


Heather and everyone else here has experienced similar situations, myself included.  Everyone makes mistakes, it's part of learning, but mistakes can be corrected!  I have a good feeling that your little buddy will pull through if you follow our advice, and you'll have gaine valuable knowledge to prevent this issue again in the future  :Smile: 

Best of luck!

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## sarahanita

I woke up this morning thinking he was dead, he was half on his back. When I went to check on him though his back legs moved quite a bit trying to right himself. Can I do the calcium soak twice a day or is that too much? Also I have a problem I am leaving the city tomorrow for a few days and don't have anyone here who can take care of him, would it be better to leave him for a few days, or bring him on an hour long bus trip?

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## Heather

Just do the soaks once a day for about 20 minutes. I would take him with you. That might be tough though. Maybe your vet could take him and do the treatments while your away?

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## sarahanita

1 as a student I can't afford to take him to the vet and 2 my vet is located in the city i am travelling to.

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## Heather

Ohhh... Hmmm. You can take him with you?

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## IvoryReptiles

> I have calcium supplements for my other reptiles, one with D3 and one without D3, I didn't see the moss as an issue right now seeing as he is and has always been a picky eater, barely ever snapping at anything. When he gets his strength back and starts eating well I will take the moss out. The liquid I posted is supposed to go in drinking water but I figured since they absorb through their skin as well a bath with a little might make a difference? I'm not sure. I'm torn between leaving him alone for the day, giving him a bath with the supplement, or trying to get him to eat the food with a bit of calcium mixed in


Yeah, you're not arguing with advice from someone who knows....................
I wasn't trying to "attack" you, I was trying to help with advice and you just took it wrong.......I'm still not attacking, just pointing out that you are arguing.

GET RID OF THE MOSS NOW. Impaction is not the only issue with it.....as Bruce stated, it could have chemicals in it that are basically poisoning your frog.
The advice given to you so far has been explained.......and you are STILL questioning it. We are trying our best to help your frog.
The pet store that doesn't treat the water....they usually have special filtration systems because they carry fish and they NEED treated water, so to keep costs under control, it is better for the store to run filtered water through the whole system. As a private owner, you do not have this system in place so you MUST treat the water. I sincerely am trying to help you.

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## lumpbump

> Yeah, you're not arguing with advice from someone who knows....................
> I wasn't trying to "attack" you, I was trying to help with advice and you just took it wrong.......I'm still not attacking, just pointing out that you are arguing.
> 
> GET RID OF THE MOSS NOW. Impaction is not the only issue with it.....as Bruce stated, it could have chemicals in it that are basically poisoning your frog.
> The advice given to you so far has been explained.......and you are STILL questioning it. We are trying our best to help your frog.
> The pet store that doesn't treat the water....they usually have special filtration systems because they carry fish and they NEED treated water, so to keep costs under control, it is better for the store to run filtered water through the whole system. As a private owner, you do not have this system in place so you MUST treat the water. I sincerely am trying to help you.


Rofl I think you guys are great. If it wasn't for your compassion for the frogs we all have I wonder if you would be so persistent in helping someone that appears to pick and choose what they think is the problem...

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## sarahanita

I'm not arguing, I'm questioning. However now I am arguing. The pet store does not use filtered water they use tap water, I know because I volunteer there, also they do not carry fish.
I'm done with this issue and I only care about treating whats wrong with him, my set up is fine.
I have been soaking in the calcium and electrolyte last night and again tonight, I think it might be helping even after one soak, I couldn't tell 100% because of the dirt on him but I am pretty sure his mouth is closed and he seems to have more strength.

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## Bruce

So you'll listen to half of our advice which has helped your frog but refuse to change the enclosure or care you give to prevent the same problem or other problems from occurring?

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## sarahanita

If the problem is in fact calcium which it seems to be nothing else is an issue.

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## morgan

Unsubscribed....can't take it

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## Bruce

You're right, however the advice we are giving you is to PREVENT you having to one back here with a sick frog and us having to figure out what you did wrong now. 

Anyone can open a petstore or own a pet, that does not mean they know anything about the animals they are selling or know how to properly care or an animal.

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## sarahanita

I appreciate the advice I am being given and I am taking it all into consideration, however apparently people need to remember that it is ADVICE, and that doesn't mean I have to follow every single word people tell me on here. Frankly is people followed everything they were told on forums we would have a lot more dead pets. I am comfortable with my decision on the enclosure and seeing as I have 2 other frogs in the same settings, and know a reptile store owner (WHO CARES ABOUT THEIR PETS) and other people who keep them in the same conditions I am ok with how it is.

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## Bruce

You're right, when it comes down to it it is just advice, and some people on forums are wrong. However I've kept frogs a lot longer than you, and the others chiming in have kept frogs longer than me. We are not giving you this advice off of "I feel like I should tell her to do this today...". It's from years of experience and trial and error. 

You can do as you'd like, but expect problems such as impaction, water retention, and toxing out syndrome, to name a few.

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## sarahanita

All those symptoms are going to happen because I have a tiny pinch of moss? Doubtful.

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## Bruce

That's just the impaction, and not very doubtful of eaten, quite probably on tw contrary. 

Water retention due to chlorine in the water, toxing out due to heavy metals in the water and possible fertilizers/pesticides in the peat moss (do not tell me none of these are in your water, you said you're in a city, that automatically means chlorine. Heavy metals come from piping with all water flows through).

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## sarahanita

The levels in the water are fine. It has been used for years on pacman frogs in this city and they are fine. Also I believe I mentioned the peatmoss is fertilizer/pesticide free (if I didn't I meant to)

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## Bruce

The levels in the water are measured and deemed safe for humans, no amphibians.  The foolish owners in your city are in fact slowly killing their frogs.  Toxing out is not something that happens over night, it builds up over time.

The peat may be free of toxins, however the risk of impaction is still high.  Believe me, I've made the same exact mistake when I started. It was labeled as frog moss, so I assumed this is what I needed. After researching and learning from this forum, I saw my errors and corrected them very easily to prevent an issue. 

This is all prevention efforts we're giving you.  It's the same reason you brush your teeth, to PREVENT cavities, it's a PREVENTION we take to ensure healthy teeth later on.  This is the same concept with treating you water and using proper substrate.

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## sarahanita

Thank you I am aware but as I said I am comfortable with my choice. Just because it is right for some, or even most, doesn't mean it is right for everyone. I have reptiles that people say "oh no don't keep them on sand they'll get an impaction" but I do, and they're fine. Yes the risk is there but it is a personal choice and the responsibility is on me I know. I don't feed in the enclosure and he is a picky eater anyway, the chances of him trying to eat the moss are very slim. I am done arguing the water as well since I know it is used on all the animals I own, as well as all the animals anyone I know or have ever talked to in this city.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Alright I was going to hold my tongue, but you obviously don't really want assistance. YOU have come here for help and are saying that you are considering it. IF you knew exactly what you needed to do in this situation you wouldn't be here asking us. ANY experiences keeper knows that tap water must be treated. To assume it is safe is foolish. Believe me as an experienced keeper who has brought one back from near death and not to mention the breeders who re offering their assistance as well.

Don't argue with advice that was offered or a treatment that you were told to use to help your frog. You need to stop being on the defensive and take steps to heal your pet with what we have provided. If not its your choice, but don't expect us to keep trying if you yourself won't take action.

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## Bruce

Well this is a shining example of how you put your own selfish needs before the well being of the animals, very sadly, in your care. 

I was never arguing, merely proving a point. I can wish the best of luck for your animals, and hope we don't see you back here with another sick animal.

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## sarahanita

You guys are arguing just as much as I am, all I am saying is that I am taking the advice into consideration but no one seems to register the part where I said I AM OK WITH MY CHOICES. I was looking for help on what is wrong with him and got it, the other things are none of your concern.

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## Bruce

Yes, we understand the YOU are ok with your choices, you've said it 100 times. What we are trying to explain is that you pets will NOT be OK with your choices.

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## sarahanita

How do YOU know? Like I said I know many people who do/have done/and will continue doing what I do with NO ISSUES. yet that seems to be irrelevant to you.

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## lumpbump

> You guys are arguing just as much as I am, all I am saying is that I am taking the advice into consideration but no one seems to register the part where I said I AM OK WITH MY CHOICES. I was looking for help on what is wrong with him and got it, the other things are none of your concern.


They aren't the one with the sick frog, that is you. You need to stop being self serving/ righteous and realize your not the expert and your telling them you will consider somethings they say to do is the wrong thing to do. Its easy for me to see they have far more experience than you and continue to offer you help and advice even with you being the way you are. Its sad to see these guys trying to help YOUR sick frog and YOUR too stubborn to accept that maybe YOU are wrong and You need to change. All the while innocent animals suffer not YOU.
Shame on YOU!
 :AR15:

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## Bruce

Years of experience and the shared experience of many more will say your friends frogs will be sick or dead within 3-5 years, at best. Who are you to say we're wrong when you did not know the simple knowledge that your frog needs calcium supplements?

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## sarahanita

I'm not being self righteous! I am simply trying to get the point across that I get what you guys are saying, but I don't feel it needs to change. There is no way for you to know what the water in my city is like. Have you had frogs and used the water from THIS city and had bad things happen? No. So how can you say 100% without a doubt that I am "poisoning my frog" which is just stupid since the water is fine for all my other reptiles. I know they have more experience, as do the people I talk to here.

Also my friends frogs are already over 5 years old so you're point is invalid Bruce. And for your information I did know they needed calcium supplements I just believed he was receiving enough because of the food choice, I was wrong in that and now I am changing it. See? I'm not just getting advice and not listening to it. I am also giving him the soaks that were recommended. The moss is none of anyone's concern nor is the water I use.

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## Bruce

So as soon as it become a problem that's when you fix it?  Sounds like only your frog is suffering from you cutting corners

And I know your water isn't good because ALL (note the word ALL) cities use CHLORINE to sanitize WATER!  No not say my point is invalid when you know I'm correct. Please, before making claims, research and educate yourself. 

It is people like you that give herps and herp owners bad reputations. Silly, uneducated people buying exotic animals because you think they'e cool. Then when the animal dies so fast due to improper care or a deadly animal kills someone due to stupidity, it casts a bad shadow on EVERYONE.

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## sarahanita

You know nothing about me, or my history with keeping animals. It is very offense to me for you to say I give herp owners a bad name when I have more animals than you know about who have perfect care. You are simply too ignorant to listen to the evidence being placed before you to accept that your opinion may not be the be all and end all that everyone should follow. I do not cut corners with my pets, nor am I one of the irresponsible nit wits who buys exotic animals because they are cool and treats them like **** until they slowly suffer and die. Get off your high horse please and accept that someone has a different opinion than yours and is choosing to follow a different path that may not end up the same way your own experiences have ended up. I live in a city where the water is very well known for being fantastic with very low levels of chlorine or anything else. I am not uneducated although I am still learning and I think you are being extremely rude and giving the members of this forum a bad name by being extremely agressive.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I'm not being self righteous! I am simply trying to get the point across that I get what you guys are saying, but I don't feel it needs to change. There is no way for you to know what the water in my city is like. Have you had frogs and used the water from THIS city and had bad things happen? No. So how can you say 100% without a doubt that I am "poisoning my frog" which is just stupid since the water is fine for all my other reptiles. I know they have more experience, as do the people I talk to here.
> 
> Also my friends frogs are already over 5 years old so you're point is invalid Bruce. And for your information I did know they needed calcium supplements I just believed he was receiving enough because of the food choice, I was wrong in that and now I am changing it. See? I'm not just getting advice and not listening to it. I am also giving him the soaks that were recommended. The moss is none of anyone's concern nor is tbd water I use.


I'm done. I've tried and you don't even understand simple reasoning. Chlorine is toxic to frogs as well as chlorimines which are in city water. These chemicals that make our water safe also make amphibians water sources toxic. Toxing Out Syndrome will begin to sit in after a period of exposure.

Your frog is sick and you are willing to take chances with your frog's life rather than taking all necessary precautions to assist in its recovery. You were and are not ready to care for one of these animals and if you persist in refusing to use any treatments or even take precautions it will die. I'm sorry, but that's how it is.

Good luck.

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## Bruce

I've done nothing but try and help your frog, as everyone here had done.  But to not follow basic care has led me to those assumptions.  

I'm done debating, if you truly feel that your tap water is safe, and your frog won't become impacted after ingesting long strands of moss, so be it.  I hope for your animals sake that everyone on this forum, including myself, is wrong.

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## sarahanita

Then explain to me how so many others have never had issues with the water? It simply doesn't make sense!

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## lumpbump

Unsubscribed. Such a waste.

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## sarahanita

Was it so hard to just let it be that I believe the water is safe and leave it at that? Also he isn't eating the moss, when he grows and becomes a good eater I will remove the moss, until then there is no risk. You guys are making it sound like I'm just bashing down everything you say to me. The only things I am not following advice on are removing the moss and changing the water. I am confident they are not what is causing the issue so it should have just been dropped and moved on from the beginning.

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## Bruce

Your water may be cleaner than most cities, with lower chlorine levels.  The toxins may be building up slower of that's the case. None the less, they are building. 

Good luck with your frog.

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## NatureLady

> There is no way for you to know what the water in my city is like. Have you had frogs and used the water from THIS city and had bad things happen? No. So how can you say 100% without a doubt that I am "poisoning my frog" which is just stupid since the water is fine for all my other reptiles. I know they have more experience, as do the people I talk to here.


Sorry...random butt in...

I studied toxicology and it's effects on phibs in college. 

YOU have NO IDEA what is in your city drinking water if you are going to be a jerk and say the above. 
NO ONE knows what is in any drinking water until after the water is used. The water quality notices come out the next billing cycle, not a call over the phone saying that hey we found traces of poison in your drinking water today. Don't be an *** and say that these people have no idea what is in YOUR cities drinking water. NO ONE HAS A CLUE WHAT IS IN OUR WATER!!!! That is why you ALWAYS treat the water!

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## sarahanita

I'm sorry this is going to come out extremely rude, but after this argument is settled what makes you think I care about anything else people have to say about the water I use? It's settled and no one is listening to my point of the argument so I am done.

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## NatureLady

Oh don't worry dear...the comment wasn't for you. 
It was for any other person reading this thread looking for answers. Many people research and never sign into forums. I would hate for this thread to give someone the wrong impression of how city water, water quality, and the safety of phibs relates.

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## arielgasca420

Well this banter was quite entertaining to read. Sarahanita, do what you feel is necessary or dont do what you feel is necessary. I too have volunteered at a pet store but i was unaware of their unorthodox methods until i came onto this forum and educated myself with a new perspective from the experiences of others. i agree that the moss will cause problems as your frog gets older and its just a matter of time before it happens. You did say that you volunteer at a pet store and their frogs are fine but they use tap water which is not good no matter what city you live in. Its just basic reptile,fish, and frog knowledge for any beginner to use a conditioner. I am skeptical of this pet store you speak of because they do not have the basic knowledge of soaks for sick frogs which is the very reason you are on this forum right now asking us for help. Right? So if this pet store is so great than why didnt they help you? You could have skipped this forum and gone straight to your pet store but you still ended up here. Why is that?

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## frogsubrosa

And why do you think no one is agreeing with your argument? You admitted yourself that the water in your city uses water with low levels of chlorine. And so, you know chlorine is present in the water, and yet you're not doing anything about it. 

You might be right that the water is NOT the cause of the problem. But have you thought about the case if you are wrong? Why take the risk? A water conditioner is cheap and readily available. It will not harm your frog, and even if it doesn't solve the problem, you're playing it safe. 

This whole argument is not about YOU. It's about the well-being of your frog. And if you, as the owner, are not going to do the best to provide for your frog, then there really isn't an argument is there? The life of your frog lies in your hand. All the members here can do is advise you on the care. Ultimately, you make the choices.

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## sarahanita

I came here first because this thread was posted in the middle of the night when I first noticed the issue. The next day i did go to the store to ask them because I trust their opinion. It is not a big store that i know does things wrong, its hard to explain and I don't feel like this anymore. Is there any way to delete this thread because I am really sick of hearing this stuff repeated when frankly I don't give a **** anymore...

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## arielgasca420

> Thank you I am aware but as I said I am comfortable with my choice. Just because it is right for some, or even most, doesn't mean it is right for everyone. I have reptiles that people say "oh no don't keep them on sand they'll get an impaction" but I do, and they're fine. Yes the risk is there but it is a personal choice and the responsibility is on me I know. I don't feed in the enclosure and he is a picky eater anyway, the chances of him trying to eat the moss are very slim. I am done arguing the water as well since I know it is used on all the animals I own, as well as all the animals anyone I know or have ever talked to in this city.


Ok lets break this down. you understand there is a risk with using sand. so lets say something does happen because of your personal choice. how will you be a responsible pet owner if you cant afford one vet bill? you said so yourself that you cant afford to take your frog to a vet now because you are a college student. I just want you to think this through. wouldnt prevention be cheaper than taking a risk?

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## arielgasca420

> I'm sorry this is going to come out extremely rude, but after this argument is settled what makes you think I care about anything else people have to say about the water I use? It's settled and no one is listening to my point of the argument so I am done.


then leave and stop responding. we dont give a rats hind quarters about you either, we only care about your frog

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## sarahanita

Unsubscribed thanks to self righteous *******s who think they know everything and wont stop harassing me.

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## arielgasca420

> And why do you think no one is agreeing with your argument? You admitted yourself that the water in your city uses water with low levels of chlorine. And so, you know chlorine is present in the water, and yet you're not doing anything about it. 
> 
> You might be right that the water is NOT the cause of the problem. But have you thought about the case if you are wrong? Why take the risk? A water conditioner is cheap and readily available. It will not harm your frog, and even if it doesn't solve the problem, you're playing it safe. 
> 
> This whole argument is not about YOU. It's about the well-being of your frog. And if you, as the owner, are not going to do the best to provide for your frog, then there really isn't an argument is there? The life of your frog lies in your hand. All the members here can do is advise you on the care. Ultimately, you make the choices.


I laugh every time I see your avatar picture. I cant get over it!

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## arielgasca420

> Unsubscribed thanks to self righteous *******s who think they know everything and wont stop harassing me.


sweet! now that she/he is gone I can ask a question about water. is rain water safe? I was always a skeptic of acid rain because I live in a city with a lot of pollution. also, My boss gives me this water that is filtered entirely and only leaves in natural minerals. its a $4,000 machine he got from japan and it makes the water with a pH of 9. is alkaline water bad for frogs?

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> sweet! now that she/he is gone I can ask a question about water. is rain water safe? I was always a skeptic of acid rain because I live in a city with a lot of pollution. also, My boss gives me this water that is filtered entirely and only leaves in natural minerals. its a $4,000 machine he got from japan and it makes the water with a pH of 9. is alkaline water bad for frogs?


Rain water can be depending on where you live and of course it does pick up solution as it falls back to earth. Acid rain is definitely bad. Any puddle may contain chemical, parasites, and many other microbes that could harm your frog. Distilled water is basically condensation, but lacks minerals so is not a good choice for soaking and or expanding their substrate because it steals minerals and salts from the frogs if they bath in it. Rain may contain some mineral content, but barely and it relatively unsafe to use for your Captives.

I'm not sure about what comes out of the machine.

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## arielgasca420

thanks Grif 
ok I will attempt to go into the science of this machine. It ionizes the water with platinum plates. they call it electrodialysis. it separates neutral water into acid and alkaline. the alkaline water has calcium, magnesium, and potassium left over. the acid water has chlorine, flouride, nitrates, and sulfides. they also say the way this water works with humans allows their body to absorb water in their tissues at a faster rate with more hydration. I made the mistake of drinking a lot of this water the first week and had to make a lot of bathroom trips. this water is awesome because instead of neutral water separating from oil, the alkaline water actually mixes with oil

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## arielgasca420

Hey grif, my frog forum crashed on me so im sending this from my phone. Ill get back to you tomorrow when i have better internet connection. Ill start a new thread about this topic

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## Ra

I would just treat any tap water with a dechlorinator. Amphibians are't "reptiles" and while a reptile may be able to handle low levels of chlorine just fine an amphibian will slowly get sick from it. I dont see why you wouldnt ere on the side of caution and AT LEAST just let the water sit out for 24 hours before using it.
 There is a difference between reptiles and amphibians....

 The whole issue about the sphagnum moss irritates me though. Alot of keepers have been using moss with amphibians and Pacman frogs for years. Alot of them. On the other hand I have never really heard of any cases of an animal being impacted. Any subtrate can cause impaction if ingested, but some are safer. If you allow your frogs to "hunt" free roaming prey, then coco fiber is the best choice. I tong feed and I use a dye/chemical free sphagnum moss substrate with zero problems.

 Feeding your animal one kind  of insect is probably unhealthy. Butterworms are probably the most unnatural diet for a Pacman frog I have ever heard of next to mealworms. Pacman frogs should be fed as varied a diet as possible, you should at least switch things up every once in a while. 

 I just dont understand how some people can be so dense.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> thanks Grif 
> ok I will attempt to go into the science of this machine. It ionizes the water with platinum plates. they call it electrodialysis. it separates neutral water into acid and alkaline. the alkaline water has calcium, magnesium, and potassium left over. the acid water has chlorine, flouride, nitrates, and sulfides. they also say the way this water works with humans allows their body to absorb water in their tissues at a faster rate with more hydration. I made the mistake of drinking a lot of this water the first week and had to make a lot of bathroom trips. this water is awesome because instead of neutral water separating from oil, the alkaline water actually mixes with oil


Basically the machine makes a electrolyte solution rather than just purified water. Since frogs absorb water into their tissues through their skin. and I have a feeling that if used too often they would absorb too much and become bloated from retaining to much fluid. I can say that using this water with a small amount of Pedialyte for a medicated soak would probably be beneficial because, but you must be careful. I wouldn't use the water as their main source or to saturate their substrate.

If it contains heavy metals after the purification process you would still have to treat it and you don't want the frog to have too much exposure to certain elements because like vitamins they can be overloaded. Sou ra like a very interesting machine though.

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## arielgasca420

I was planning to still use the repti safe in the machines water just as an extra precaution. I think I will just skip it and have this awesome water all to myself. only curious. thanks for the input Grif

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I was planning to still use the repti safe in the machines water just as an extra precaution. I think I will just skip it and have this awesome water all to myself. only curious. thanks for the input Grif


You're welcome.

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## DVirginiana

> The whole issue about the sphagnum moss irritates me though. Alot of keepers have been using moss with amphibians and Pacman frogs for years. Alot of them. On the other hand I have never really heard of any cases of an animal being impacted. Any subtrate can cause impaction if ingested, but some are safer. If you allow your frogs to "hunt" free roaming prey, then coco fiber is the best choice. I tong feed and I use a dye/chemical free sphagnum moss substrate with zero problems.


I always thought the moss thing was more of a 'if you have to ask you probably shouldn't be using it' sort of issue.  It can definitely be used safely, and even has some benefits if it is, but if someone has to ask whether or not it is safe, it is unlikely that they are experienced enough to avoid all the issues that the moss could cause.  Seems like mostly a cautionary thing.
I have a snake that, due to me being uninformed, was kept on cob bedding for over ten years (longer than the average lifespan of a garter) and only recently got switched to a safer setup.  Even though he never had any issues, I know people that have had babies die of impaction after one feeding on cob.  Reminds me of the moss... Like, it's entirely possible to never have issues with it, but why risk it? (I know there's not really a risk if done properly, I'm talking about people who aren't taking all the right precautions)

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## IvoryReptiles

Ya know......the cliche of "One out of ten doctors recommend..." could fit here. If the majority of experienced breeders/keepers are giving you the SAME advice, common sense should dictate it is a good idea.
She could have ended all of this with a simple "Okay, thanks for the advice." and none of us would have been the wiser to her continuing her irresponsible husbandry. It has nothing to do with her age, it is all about being a stuborn individual. When we have an issue with a pet and ask advice from those who have more experience, we do everything we can to correct the situation.....we are grateful for the advice and say so. I guess some folks just don't care about the animals as much as they do about their ego.

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## Heather

Jessica is right. When asking for advice from knowledgable frog owners and breeders at least truly take it into consideration. It is wise advice. With perhaps just a simple thank you. 


City water is treated with chlorine. Over time the levels absorbed by frogs will build up and lead to toxic levels within them and their body systems will begin to shut down and/or they will become sick. It is dependent on the amount circulating in your water as to how long that may take to occur.  Think of your frogs as little sponges. They will absorb whatever can pass through their permeable membranes/skin, whether good or bad. The only way to know what is in your water is to have it tested, as Amanda said. All fish and amphibians should have dechlorinated water. Simply put. Those who believe otherwise are wrong. Not by my opinion. Scroll around the Internet and look for studies. You can educate yourself. We here are just providing the knowledge to keep your frogs healthy.

We are not here to criticize or argue. If this were anywhere but here I'm sure most would have turned and walked away, at minimal. We are trying to help you keep your frog(s) healthy. That is all. 

I was at work and thought I'd take a few minutes to catch up here and see how things are going with your frog. All that came to mind was, Whoa! What happened while I was away...
Anyhow....

Moss is bad when you feed your frogs on or near it. Same with small rocks or gravel. Perhaps a few of us can recall a photo submitted some time ago by a member here of an X-ray of his frog with a belly full of rocks? It really does happen. Pacs are aggressive eaters. So the members here are trying to caution you of this. 

Ugh!!!

The calcium is still important. And your frog needs it or his bones will become brittle and soft and he will be unable to eat properly and will lose limb functions. In comparison, it would be like a human with a worsening osteoporosis, except with frogs, other ailments will compound the problem. Low blood calcium causes tetany. Tetany starts out with numbness and tingling and progresses in order to twitching, flailing, tremors, seizures and paralysis. This is factual medical fact. Calcium is not absorbed well without vitamin D 3. That is why calcium with vita D3 is so important. 

Okay, well it's time for me to go to bed as I work a long day tomorrow. I am hoping this helps.

You can be mad at the members for trying to help, though it won't change the facts of proper frog husbandry. We are not the ones to makeup their care guidelines. Science and experience have given this data, which has been shared by experienced members here.

The members here are actually very friendly and helpful. They will go out of their way to teach, educate and get you the help you need. They can very often help situations be corrected before you need a vet. And if you follow their advice, it's unlikely you'll be in those situations... Preventing ailments from occurring, as also was mentioned above. 

Good luck to you and your frog! I hope he pulls through.

(Please pardon my poor typing as my eyes are nearly crossed from typing on my phone after a 13 hour shift, 2 hours of frog care on about 5 hrs sleep... Good night all!)

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