# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  Cody ate plastic decor

## MeTree

Hey guys. I was feeding Cody tonight just like I normally do. He was hunting a nightcrawler that had wondered over somewhat near a plant, but not under it. He got the worm successfully, but I then noticed that the worm pulled a small plastic plant with him into Cody's mouth! Cody usually just spits out plants with a little bit of patients, but Cody decided that he was hungry and he wasn't going to let the worm go just because he had plastic in his mouth.

I tried to wrestle the plant out of his mouth, but the more I tried, the more he clamped down. He ended up swollowing the entire thing. I feel horrible that I wasn't able to help him.

Is anyone aware of a frog's capability of digesting plastic? I know they can digest things like rat bones and so on, but plastic isn't on the menu for most pet pacs. I am really worried about impaction. I'll try to upload a picture of the plant before he swollowed it (tomorrow). In the meantime, any ideas or suggestions? I'd really appreciate some imput.

Thanks guys!

-MeTree

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## Wizzlewuzzle

If it was really big you're probably going to need to take him to the vet.  If it was small enough that he might reasonably pass it with some help, I believe the usual aid for impaction is a soak in lukewarm water with a few drops of honey added.  If it were me and my frog, though, I would probably take him to the vet because I'd be too worried about possible damage from it going through his system.  So sorry this happened  :Frown:

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## mikesfrogs

Give it a few days and see what happens. Soak it twice a day. Most vets won't be able to do anything. They can't do operations on frogs. Don't stress too much

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## MeTree

I appreciate the advice. Cody is alive and somewhat Ok looking today. He obviously isn't able to digest the plastic plant. He has two HUGE bulges on either side of his stomach. I soaked him for about thirty minutes in warm water, and then I put him back in his tank. He seemed a little stressed, but he seems to be in a much better mood than he was last night.

I'll try to upload some pictures of his tummy bulges and the plant he ate later if I get a chance.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Plastic doesn't digest. Plus you wouldn't want the plastic burned away from the wiring that is used to support the plastic. It would make matters worse.

Definitely keep us updated. Try and stay calm. He is going to be in a lot of discomfort.

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## MeTree

I think I'm pretty calm. I mean, other than soaking him and trying not to stress him out too much, there really isn't a lot that I can do right now. I guess I'll just have to be patient and see how it all turns out.

Finally got some pictures for you guys. He looks pretty creeper with the bulges sticking out of his sides. I didn't edit a circle around them or anything like that, but I think they're pretty clear.

This is the picture I took when I was trying to (gently) wrestle it out of his mouth.


This is about 2 minutes after he completely swallowed it.


The rest of the pictures are pictures of the first time I soaked him today. I soaked him around 11:12am today (Monday), and he ate the plant at about 11:56pm yesterday night (Sunday). Just to give you guys a time-frame idea.




So if you guys come to any conclusion, or have any thoughts on his present/future condition (e.g. "he's probably not going to make it", or "Oh, that little thing? He'll be fine") feel free to say something.

I'll keep you guys posted. I sure hope he pulls through.

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## Wizzlewuzzle

Poor little lumpy thing.   :Frown: . I'm thinking there's no way that'll be able to pass through his system.  As for how much damage it could do by remaining in his stomach, I don't know.  I don't suppose there is any way to induce vomiting in a frog?  I'm not advising it or anything, just kinda thinking out loud.

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## MeTree

There may be a way to induce vomiting, but I am not aware of any methods. Reguardless, if you see how he swallowed the plant you may come to realize that there really wouldn't be any way for him to vomit it out. I'm afraid it would just do that much more damage to his system.

I really don't know what I think about all of this. I don't want him to suffer through an extremely painful process just to die at the end of it, but on the other hand I don't want to take away his chance to fight through it. Is there a right answer? I would really like some more opinions on his condition, if you guys don't mind. 

You guys can be sure that at this stage we are both trying really hard to work through this. Right now he seems like he has the will to fight through it. I'll keep you guys updated.

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## Ivan M

Could there be a way to anesthetize him with a vet, they then can open his mouth and perhaps see down and pull it out with tweezers, not sure if this is possible, but just a thought. I hope something can be done.

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## KINGblackPHINEX

Is your poor frog still alive and doing well?

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## Colleen/Jerrod

They can put frogs under to operate, but the problem with frogs is that sometimes they wake up during surgery. Something about their system makes anesthetic less effective.

Stanton I would take him to a vet anyway. If he has a chance they can tell you for sure and perhaps help. I can honestly say that this is not something you can handle yourself. This does not bode well for Cody if that plant is pushed any further down into his intestines. He will suffer greatly. A specialist may be able to get it out. If a bunch of stones can be removed through the mouth or a frog perhaps a fake plant can be too.

There is really only 2 options and one I know you will not like so I'm suggesting the better of the two for both your sake.

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## hotnickles96

So not to be a jerk but, Why didn't you pull it out when he was swallowing it. You had enough time to take pics of the process. You may have injured his jaw or teeth a little bit but... letting him swallow the whole thing?... 
Like I said I'm not being a jerk but I guess I just don't get it. 
Hope your frog turns out ok.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> So not to be a jerk but, Why didn't you pull it out when he was swallowing it. You had enough time to take pics of the process. You may have injured his jaw or teeth a little bit but... letting him swallow the whole thing?... 
> Like I said I'm not being a jerk but I guess I just don't get it. 
> Hope your frog turns out ok.


I would say he probably panicked.

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## mikesfrogs

Use the tongs to pull it out from his stomach. Try to use a light to see it. When they relax their tongue you can see down their throat.

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## Ivan M

I have no experience in this but if I can recommend anything, use perhaps K-Y jelly since it is water based to lubricate tongs and plastic leaf for ease of removal. Just a thought.

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## Ivan M

For light I would wear one of those small camping reading lights you put on your head where you can direct the light and have both hands free to work on the little guy. Sort of what surgeons do. Please keep us updated on the outcome.

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## MeTree

I've been super busy all day, so I haven't had a chance to post. I'll give you guys a quick update.

It's been almost exactly 48 hours since he swallowed the plant. He is alive and hopping, but he seems pretty stressed out right now. I removed all the small plants, and replaced it with a huge standing aquarium plant that he won't be able to swallow if he tried. I went to Petsmart today (a 55 mile drive) and got Cody some Morpani driftwood (actually found some, they never have it). He seems to appreciate the change in scenery.

And now to respond to y'all's feedback (which I appreciate).

hotnickles, I tried. Partially I was panicking, but the reason it got to that point was because Cody locked his jaw and wouldn't let go. I had him hanging, I was pulling, prying, and jerking near the end. If I could have removed it quickly, there wouldn't have been any need for me to reach over and grab my camera (which was 2 feet away, easily in reach). I just felt like I needed to take a picture of the plant in case me and Cody failed to remove it. After I was done trying to get it out, Cody himself tried. After opening his mouth as wide as he could and rubbing his tongue, he couldn't shake it off. Yes, I watched him swallow it. I was nearly in tears, but at the time I wasn't thinking that the huge damage it would cause on his system would be worse than the blunt force of ripping it out of his mouth. So no, I guess I don't look back too fondly on that moment.  :Frown: 

Grif, I wish more than anything I could take him to a vet. I know your vet has worked wonders. Unfortunately, I really don't think I could start to pay a vet bill for an extraction like this. Also, there aren't any exotic vets within 75 miles of where I live, and the closest one is in a city that my mom hates to drive in. On top of that, I have to go on a week long high adventure scout camp that I leave for Friday. With all my obligations before then, I don't have a day I could go. It would be great if I could go to the vet, but I can't, if you understand.  :Frown: 

I think that I am going to try what Ivan and Mike suggested and make the extraction myself. As horrible as that sounds, I'll try to work quickly and that will prevent prolonged pain, if I fail or succeed. I really need some pointers, though. First of all, *I really would like some way to "knock Cody out"* before I try anything. If it's a recipe, please be as specific as you know how to be. If it's a product, I guess still be as specific as possible. Knowing him, he'll just be chewing on the tongs in protest the entire time if he's awake. I honestly don't think the plant went very far into his intestine track. The lumps haven't advanced. Maybe there is still hope.

I'll make a last ditch effort to save Cody, probably tomorrow. He's been strong, and he deserves an attempt. Either way, tomorrow more than likely he'll either be lost, or rid of the plant. Hopefully the latter. I just need him asleep before I start. Any suggestions?

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## NatureLady

OMG MeTree!!! I am so sorry that this is happening. We all live and learn, so here is my advice. Be prepared for the worst, be quick, and Cody will protest greatly. If he is in great pain, which I would be, he may be easier to help then you think. Good Luck

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## Ivan M

May i suggest that perhaps you can get 2 popsicle sticks and cut them down and use a dremel to round the edges or sand paper, just round like the popsicle sticks were originally but made small, perhaps if you cant figure out a way to put him to sleep as you say, you can pry his jaw open with a butter knife or something pretty flat and place a downsized popsicle stick into his mouth so that he cant shut it, while you are holding him perhaps then you grab some lubricated tweezers and grab that plastic plant and gently slide it out, then remove the popsicle stick and let him be. i am wishing you the best of luck. They are pretty resilient, and since you are not a VET, i would be very afraid trying home remedies for anesthetizing. Best of luck, keep us posted.

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## froggycakes

i have to agree my girlfriend and i were reading your post and she literally started crying. we hope all goes well for you and cody, keep us all updated

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## DVirginiana

I'm so sorry for you and your frog   :Frown: 

For the 'surgery'... I've seen home surgeries successfully performed on goldfish using clove oil as an anesthetic.  It's tricky, because clove oil is also used to euthanize frogs and fish.  So you might not want to try that unless someone has any ideas for dosage.  Just tossing ideas around.  Sad as it is, I would recommend having some clove oil on hand anyway in case things start to go bad.  Hopefully it won't come to that though.
It might be good to find a partner to help you.  Maybe someone to hold the frog still and keep it from injuring itself so you can have both hands to work.


Good luck, and keep us posted!  I don't post often, but I stalk the forum a lot and I've been watching this thread and sending you guys good vibes since it came up!

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## MeTree

Thanks everyone for all your support! It really means a lot!

Ivan, I like your idea with the popsicle sticks. I have popsicle sticks similar to what you are talking about. I'll have to get some cleaned.

DVirginiana, I appreciate the post. I am aware that many people use Clove oil before they euthanize there fish. Usually, the Clove oil is only meant to put them to sleep, followed by another agent after they are asleep. I need to get some anyway to have on hand. I may look a little bit further into a water/clove solution.

Hopefully I can finish this one way or the other today. I almost think this is putting me through as much stress as my poor Cody.  :Frown:

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## Eel Noob

Poor frog. Doesn't look good at all. Not to be an *** or anything but are you afraid of the frog? Because if it was me I would of grabbed the plant with my fingers and if needed use the tweezer to pry it's mouth open to keep it from swallowing, wouldn't care if the frog bit my fingers in the process.

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## Arie

I don't know if you can get some, but when I was doing research for my thesis with fathead minnows, I had to anesthetize them using MS-222 or Tricaine Methanesulfonate (sometimes marketed as Finquel). Apparently this anesthetic is safe to use in leopard frogs as well. I'm not sure how pacman frog physiology compares, but I think the stuff is safe (in the proper dosage) for any cold-blooded critter. You basically mix up the solution in water, plunk them in the stuff, wait for them to fall asleep and then you are good to go. My minnows needed a solution of 185 micrograms/Litre while leopard frogs are usually dosed at 200 mg/L or less. It's a big risk, but if you've exhausted ALL other options, this might be a last-ditch effort...

Another possibility might be to massage it out? I know of someone who's axolotl swallowed some rocks that couldn't pass. The vet said surgery was not a viable option because of the damage it would cause. Likely the axie would not recover and so they were sent home. The person massaged the axolotl's belly to force the rocks upward. When the rocks were in view, they were able to reach in and pull them out.

This is a really sad situation and I really really hope Cody recovers!! My thoughts and prayers are with you!! Good luck!

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## Colleen/Jerrod

DO NOT PLACE A FREE PIECE OF POPSICKE STICK IN HIS MOUTH WITH NOYHING TO SECURE IT LEST HE SWALLOW IT AS WELL!!!! You need someone to assist you Stanton. You it would not be a good idea to just have a piece of popsicle stick sitting between his jaws. He could easily slap it down and possibly swallow it too. Have someone help open his mouth.

This will not be an easy task at all. Do your best to remove it with out harming him further. You're both in our thoughts.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I'm so sorry for you and your frog  
> 
> For the 'surgery'... I've seen home surgeries successfully performed on goldfish using clove oil as an anesthetic.  It's tricky, because clove oil is also used to euthanize frogs and fish.  So you might not want to try that unless someone has any ideas for dosage.  Just tossing ideas around.  Sad as it is, I would recommend having some clove oil on hand anyway in case things start to go bad.  Hopefully it won't come to that though.
> It might be good to find a partner to help you.  Maybe someone to hold the frog still and keep it from injuring itself so you can have both hands to work.
> 
> 
> Good luck, and keep us posted!  I don't post often, but I stalk the forum a lot and I've been watching this thread and sending you guys good vibes since it came up!


Clove oil kills frogs D.

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## MeTree

At this moment I really don't want to go into all the details, but Cody is no longer in any pain. After the extraction failed, I felt like there was too much potential internal damage. I decided it would be best for him if I take matters into my own hands, which I did humanely, you all can be certain. He will certainly be missed. RIP Cody.  :Frown: 

I really appreciate the forum coming together and trying to help me get through this. You guys are all awesome.

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## Ivan M

> At this moment I really don't want to go into all the details, but Cody is no longer in any pain. After the extraction failed, I felt like there was too much potential internal damage. I decided it would be best for him if I take matters into my own hands, which I did humanely, you all can be certain. He will certainly be missed. RIP Cody. 
> 
> I really appreciate the forum coming together and trying to help me get through this. You guys are all awesome.


Damn that sucks, we know he is in a better place now, sincerely sorry for your lost.

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## NatureLady

RIP in Cody and sorry, again.  :Grey:

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## DVirginiana

Sorry to hear that   :Frown:   Poor little guy.  At least he had someone willing to really try for him.




> Clove oil kills frogs D.


I know, the only reason I threw that out there was because I've seen it used to anesthetize fish for home-surgeries, even though it's typically used to euthanize fish as well.  Does it effect frogs differently than fish for these purposes?  Just wondering.. It'd be good to know.

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## Ra

So you took the advice of a few people on a forum of frog keepers inexperienced with veterinary care and decided to perform amateur surgery when you should have called a vet...

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## RobbyBobby

Unfortunate event.
For anyone else who ever runs into this problem in the future, horned frogs will generally release anything in their grasp if they are submerged under water.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

I'm very sorry Stanton. RIP Cody.

I wish there was more we could have done. This is probably for the best. If the plant could not be extracted he would have surely died with much suffering. I very sorry :Frown:  :Frown:  :Frown:

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Sorry to hear that    Poor little guy.  At least he had someone willing to really try for him.
> 
> 
> 
> I know, the only reason I threw that out there was because I've seen it used to anesthetize fish for home-surgeries, even though it's typically used to euthanize fish as well.  Does it effect frogs differently than fish for these purposes?  Just wondering.. It'd be good to know.


They use it to euthanize frogs not to perform surgery. A small amount will kill them. Their chemistry is different than fish.

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## Ra

> They use it to euthanize frogs not to perform surgery. A small amount will kill them. Their chemistry is different than fish.


 Its already been stated that its used as an anesthetic before the frogs are euthanized, but the side effect may be gastric prolapse therefore it wouldnt be the best option
The best option, as mentioned, would be MS-222, and if the frog falls too deeply into sleep during the procedure it can be partially revived by being rinsed in well oxygenated water.

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## IvoryReptiles

> So you took the advice of a few people on a forum of frog keepers inexperienced with veterinary care and decided to perform amateur surgery when you should have called a vet...


You know, it was a sad thing and to be real honest, most vets wouldn't have done much of anything.......even the supposed specialists in reptiles/amphibians. 
I have noticed that you never have much advice to give unless it is in the form of criticism after the fact Ra. MeTree explained why a vet was not an option. MeTree reached out to us because it was the only option for them. Some of us can go to a vet with issues like this.....some of us even have vets available that would give it a shot. MeTree was asking for help where they thought they could get some advice from folks who may have had a similar experience........that is what the forum is for Ra.

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## Ra

I realize that, but it would have been wise to seek out other, more reliable information elsewhere. Nonetheless, I dont know what kind of procedure Metree attempted to perform, probably some type of endoscopy through the mouth. Im somewhat curious to know how the procedure was performed, when Metree is ready to discuss it.
 I didnt say anything about going to a vet, I said to call one. I would highly recommend anyone call a vet before seeking out information on an internet forum. Internet forums are notorious for having alot of unreliable information. Vets will often give general advice over the phone and tell you what you can do and what your options are. I would even go ahead and call another vet, just for a second opinion, before I sought advice from any other place, especially an internet forum.

 I think the best advice any frog or animal keeper can get in an emergency medical situation is to call a vet. I realize that he had no way of getting to a veterinarian, but a phone call wouldn't have hurt.

 Stating that a vet "wouldnt do much of anything" even a reptile and amphibian specialist seems a little bit outrageous of a statement to make, and a very subjective one. I would hate to think new frog keepers will leave this forum thinking that seeking vet care is pointless or stupid.

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## Ra

Unfortunately any advice I could possibly give in this situation IS after the fact. I wouldnt know what to do if my frog ate plastic decor. But I can say without a doubt that my frog would never eat plastic decor. Prevention is the best medicine after all.

 SO for all the frog keepers out there who have something valuable to learn from this whole scenario, heres my advice.

 Feed your frog with forceps and on a smooth bare surface, such as an empty plastic container or terrarium. That will ensure beyond a doubt that they never consume any inedibles.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Ra have you ever taken a frog to a herp vet? Most guess more than stating what is actually wrong with the animal. Also most would rather just put an animal down without a second thought of how to save the animal. It just depends on where you go and whether the Vet will actually attempt to save the frog. After all they do a procedure and it kills the frog then it kind of falls back on them. That's why most won't even attempt to save them. So I believe Jess' statement above is quite true. I have a Herp Vet that I can take mine to if needs be, but a lot of Herp Vets are also still learning so they'll research how to help the animal while they're seeing it in office. Mine even does this, but I've only needed to take one of mine in and just get meds for another. I believe MeTres did the best he could in this situation and there us no need for any further advice here.

What's done is done and it should be left at that.

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## IvoryReptiles

> I realize that, but it would have been wise to seek out other, more reliable information elsewhere. Nonetheless, I dont know what kind of procedure Metree attempted to perform, probably some type of endoscopy through the mouth. Im somewhat curious to know how the procedure was performed, when Metree is ready to discuss it.
>  I didnt say anything about going to a vet, I said to call one. I would highly recommend anyone call a vet before seeking out information on an internet forum. Internet forums are notorious for having alot of unreliable information. Vets will often give general advice over the phone and tell you what you can do and what your options are. I would even go ahead and call another vet, just for a second opinion, before I sought advice from any other place, especially an internet forum.
> 
>  I think the best advice any frog or animal keeper can get in an emergency medical situation is to call a vet. I realize that he had no way of getting to a veterinarian, but a phone call wouldn't have hurt.
> 
>  Stating that a vet "wouldnt do much of anything" even a reptile and amphibian specialist seems a little bit outrageous of a statement to make, and a very subjective one. I would hate to think new frog keepers will leave this forum thinking that seeking vet care is pointless or stupid.


I simply pointed out the cold hard facts Ra........also, pretty sure that my advice is not what would run folks off from this forum.......but your rude and condescending remarks might. 
And just for the record, I have an excellent vet that does specialize in exotics/reptiles & amphibians........I did ask his advice about this after filling him in on the situation. He said that if they couldn't get the frog to a vet, the course of action MeTree took was what he would have considered as the best action other than out-right putting the frog down. I agree with him that at least attempting to save the animal is better than letting it sit and suffer a slow death by starvation or damage caused by a foreign object.
You seem to think that you are the only educated person on this forum. You are not. You might want to try helping these folks with advice instead of trolling around just waiting for a tragedy to occur where you can then scold the people involved for not doing what YOU would have done blah, blah, blah. I have yet to see you even attempt to help with advice, but you sure try to act as though you know all. You don't. Get off your High Horse already.

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## Lija

so sorry for your loss MeTres, RIP Cody.

 as for other things - I can tell that people on this forum helped me way more then any vet by far! there is nothing like hands on experience and advice from breeders and keepers who know what they are talking about.  there are  just a few vets who are specializing in herps, and out of them only small percentage know anything about frogs.  I know that for a fact but that is in US, same in Canada, I don't think there are any board certified herp vets, so the best case scenario you will be dealing with general practice vets who may have been  to a few  exotic animal conferences and read a few book about exotics, but with animal this small and having such a small possibilities to do anything surgically I doubt vet would help anyway here.
 advice on feeding outside the cage - well this may work for some, but in some instances - they will better starve then go there, why to get them more stresses then they need to be, in my particular case - if I feed mine in separate container he would be starve to death, only 1 out of 4 frogs is ok with tong feeding and that is under condition he is in his cage.

 so my advice is - love your frogs, do your research - find ALL that you can on your particular frog, ask for advice no matter how stupid the question may sound, listen to what people have to say and do your very best for your little "baby" - provide the best conditions he can possibly have, and be prepare to pay as much as you need for all that stuff, including visit to a vet when you know it'll help.

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## Wizzlewuzzle

I'm so sorry for your loss  :Frown:

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## Ra

> I simply pointed out the cold hard facts Ra........also, pretty sure that my advice is not what would run folks off from this forum.......but your rude and condescending remarks might. 
> And just for the record, I have an excellent vet that does specialize in exotics/reptiles & amphibians........I did ask his advice about this after filling him in on the situation. He said that if they couldn't get the frog to a vet, the course of action MeTree took was what he would have considered as the best action other than out-right putting the frog down. I agree with him that at least attempting to save the animal is better than letting it sit and suffer a slow death by starvation or damage caused by a foreign object.
> You seem to think that you are the only educated person on this forum. You are not. You might want to try helping these folks with advice instead of trolling around just waiting for a tragedy to occur where you can then scold the people involved for not doing what YOU would have done blah, blah, blah. I have yet to see you even attempt to help with advice, but you sure try to act as though you know all. You don't. Get off your High Horse already.


 I see your point, but I just dont want to see people visiting the forum and getting the idea that taking the animal to the vet, or even calling one is an outright waste of time.

 Some interesting input has come out of the scenario for everybody to learn from; submerging a frog in water can cause it to release items grasped in the mouth, feeding your frogs inside the enclosure can be risky and feeding on a flat smooth surface is probably better, and calling a vet in an animal emergency medical situation should be the first action taken.

 Its my opinion that he should have called a vet, if that puts me on a high horse than thats fine. I think most pet owners would agree with that. Even if the vet couldnt help at all, at least he sought proffessional advice first. My criticism really doesn't stretch any further than the fact that he didnt call a vet regarding the course of action taken in light of the problem.

 I'd be interested to know what kind of procedure he performed. I'm sure very few frog keepers have ever been in a situation where they have had to perform an emergency edoscopic removal of a foreign object.

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## DVirginiana

A lot of vets won't give advice over the phone without an office visit.  If they give advice without having seen the animal, then it looks really bad if they misdiagnose or recommend the wrong thing.  If you DO have a herp vet you can get to, just an office visit can cost an arm and a leg.  As much as we all love our frogs, sometimes that's just not financially an option. 

Like Grif said, a lot of times they will research the animal once it's brought in (Not knocking vets though; my local vet recently helped me treat a rescue-reptile.  Didn't even charge me for the office visit, only meds, since he told me outright he didn't know much about exotics).

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## MeTree

Sorry I haven't been posting. My internet went down. I'm using public wi-fi.

I will always appreciate kind advice and suggestions from you guys, but I would really appreciate it if some of you would stop telling me over and over what I did wrong, and what you would have done. I will be the first to admit that I made a few mistakes, but I did everything I could to counter. You guys, I just lost Cody, who I've had for over 10 months. Critism is an important part of teaching, but it needs to be done in a polite manner. Try to be helpful, but also try to be considerate as well, especially in cases like this.

Once again, I appreciate all the support. Cody will be well missed. I finished his memorial video, which can be found here;
Rest In Peace Cody [HD] - YouTube

Thanks guys!

-MeTree

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## Colleen/Jerrod

He was very beautiful Stanton. I'm so sorry for your loss.  :Frown:  :Frown:  :Frown:  :Frown:

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## DVirginiana

Aww, it's really sweet that you made a video for him.   :Frown: 

Everybody makes mistakes.  Sometimes people get lucky and never have anything bad happen, and sometimes they don't, but if anyone keeps herps long enough there will eventually be something they look back and wish they had done differently.  Seems like Cody was very well cared for while he was with you.  Sorry again for your loss.

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