# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Beginner Discussion >  Q's about darts in general.

## ColleenT

ok, i am not sure i will ever own them, but i want to learn about them so i can make good decisions.

So as i have been reading, a 20 long tank is too short after substrates, (b/c they jump high?) i thought darts were more terrestrial. so is it that climbing is essential, or are they jumping a lot? 

i like the Dendrobates Tinc Azureus(sp?) and i see that i could only have one female in a group, so a pair would probably be best. 

do they swim, or do they stay out of the water? I don't know if a large water feature would be useless if they don't like to swim. 

Will they hunt, dig for springtails, or are springtails just crawling about on their own?

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## Eli

Hi, i plan to get dart frogs soon and i plan on beginning my build sometime next week. Most dart frogs love climbing, some, like the Arzureus, are more terrestrial, but still enjoy climbing. They usually stay out of the water. Some people dont put water dishes in at all and let the mister and humidity do all the work. Thumbnail darts, like imitators will eat springtails their whole lives. Most larger species like terribilis or auratus or arzureus or leucomelas usually only eat them when they are froglets. They eat fruitflies as adults. They usually dont dig and the springtails are usually their to "clean up" after the frogs and maintain a healthy little ecosystem


The Frog chooses its owner. Treat your life-long friend with respect and care and it will never disappoint!

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## awelcome

I can't offer good advice, but I can share my experience at least.  I think different dart species vary.  I have a dendrobates tinctorius 'cobalt'.  I wouldn't say he jumps around a lot, but he does like to occasionally climb the background a little or climb up onto my broms.  I actually have no idea how he gets up there, because it usually happens when I am sleeping and I find him there in the mornings.  He mostly likes to roam around on the ground.  I don't have springtails in there yet, so can't help you there.  I imagine, though, that he would catch them if they came around the top, as opposed to digging around for them.  

I also am not the one to give advice on tank size... so stay tuned for the experts on that one.  I have a 12x12x18 (which I know is too small, but that's a long story).  It has a good amount of vertical space, and I was able to sort of build upwards from the front to the back with substrate and then angle logs/plants/branches to give more space to climb around on. I also just really like the visual appeal of a taller tank though.

Oh, and I do have a water dish, and he does get into it at least once a day typically.  I like the idea of things like those monkey pots or whatever they are called or upside down coconut halves with puddles in them for a more natural look though.

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## ColleenT

i guess i'm confused bc i assumed the dart frogs were more of a wanderer, not a hopper, so i figured a lower tank would not bother them. so if i had to choose a taller enclosure vs a larger footprint, the taller is better?

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## awelcome

I have seen plenty of people do wider vs taller for darts.  I think it just needs to be a certain height, and hopefully someone can help with what that is.

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## Eli

It all depends on the species. I would say that you should have at least 18 inches of height for a more
terrestrial frog like an Arzureus. A more arboreal species like a leucomelas would defintitley need more height. And remember that a properly layered substrate would take up at least six inches
an 18x18x24 or 24x18x24 is usually sufficient. But again, for some species, the higher the better

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## Carlos

A vivarium with live plants will require either a drainage layer or a false bottom.  When all is said and done you will lose around 6 in. of height to top of substrate.  Only way a 20L will work is to stand on an end and then you are left with a pretty small bottom area.

Smaller thumbnails like Imi's will climb all over the place and use 24 in. of height (i.e. an ET 18x18x24 in.) easily.  Some of the larger darts (i.e. _P. terribilis_) and Mantellas will stay close to ground; but if you build ledges. branches, etc. they will use them.

Springtail job is to be part of the clean-up crew; but darts will eat them too and they are required to raise the smaller froglets prior to them accepting newly born wingless _D. melanogaster_.

A water feature will be used by darts.  Builders leave them out because they require additional planning; not because the darts will drown in them.

Recommend you read the dart care articles here, they have lots of useful information  :Smile:  .

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ColleenT

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## ColleenT

so should the height be about 18 inches on top of the 6 inches of substrate? so 24 inches is the minimum for any dart tank?

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## Eli

Pretty much. Although you can "get away" with 18 inches including the substrate for a little while when the frog is still young


The Frog chooses its owner. Treat your life-long friend with respect and care and it will never disappoint!

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ColleenT

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## Joshua Ralph

Hi there,

I am going to break down more post, just to make it simpler! lol




> ok, i am not sure i will ever own them, but i want to learn about them so i can make good decisions.


Firstly, well done Colleen for actually stating this, I find it is increasingly rare for people to stop and think instead of rushing into something!




> So as i have been reading, a 20 long tank is too short after substrates, (b/c they jump high?) i thought darts were more terrestrial. so is it that climbing is essential, or are they jumping a lot?


In all honesty, this entirely depends upon which species, out of 298+, you wish to keep and look into. Including; 

_Allobates (Family: Aromobatidae)
__Andinobates (Family: Dendrobatidae)
__Anomaloglossus (Family: Aromobatidae)__Aromobates (Family: Aromobatidae)
__Mannophryne (Family: Aromobatidae)
__Rheobates (Family: Aromobatidae)__Ameerega (Family: Dendrobatidae)
__Colostethus (Family: Dendrobatidae)__Epipedobates (Family Dendrobatidae)
__Silverstoneia (Family: Dendrobatidae)
__Adelphobates (Family: Dendrobatidae) 
__Dendrobates (Family: Dendrobatidae) 
__Excidobates (Family: Dendrobatidae)
__Minyobates (Family: Dendrobatidae)
__Oophaga (Family: Dendrobatidae)
__Phyllobates (Family: Dendrobatidae)
__Ranitomeya (Family: Dendrobatidae)__Hyloxalus (Family: Dendrobatidae)_ 
All of these are indeed from two different Families, however both _Aromobatidae_ and _Dendrobatidae_ are considered Poison Dart Frogs. 
To truly understand Poison Dart Frogs, firstly break up their Scientific naming to discover what it means. If you split the Dendrobates into two parts of its Greek translation, _Dendron_ roughly means "Tree" and bateo/bates "I walk/mount", transforming it into roughly "Tree-walker". 
Most of the family are incredibly Arboreal, and some of which that I have worked with have never set foot upon the substrate, yes they are technically terrestrial though but this doesn't mean they do not have their preferences though. 
Some species, such as _Oophaga pumilio_ are incredibly Arboreal, but then you have some species such as _Dendrobates auratus_, which are more Terrestrial in behaviour. So as you can see, it varies dramatically!

Height within the Terrarium would be essential and most advantageous to have. However specifications of dimensions cannot really be given without a chosen species. 





> i like the Dendrobates Tinc Azureus(sp?) and i see that i could only have one female in a group, so a pair would probably be best.


_Dendrobates tinctorius azureus_ (believed to be the founding species of the _D.tinctorius_ species/localities.) is incredibly popular and are fantastic I think to start off with. They do get big though in comparison to some in the family of _Dendrobatidae_ and in all honesty, Trios are the recommended amount that should be kept within the terrarium, to prevent specimens from harrassing and bullying certain individuals.  Terratoriality can occur, but mainly between the same genders such as Females on Females, this can be prevented though with ease.

I recommend a 800mm x 400mm x 600mm Terrarium is used, which is okay for a maximum of 3-4 specimens.




> do they swim, or do they stay out of the water? I don't know if a large water feature would be useless if they don't like to swim.


They are notourisly bad swimmers, in fact awful to the point where they will actually drown themselves however, this doesnt happen often enough to make it a strong possiblity. People do use Water Features however, they are more of an Aesthetic thing for the owners benefit, not the animals. 




> Will they hunt, dig for springtails, or are springtails just crawling about on their own?


They are quite opportunistic in their dietary behaviour, and will generally eat when they come across something that is suitable. 
This can include the following;

Tropical Spring-tails (_Folsomia      candida_)Tropical Dwarf Woodlice (_Trichorina tomentosa)_Pea Aphids (_Acyrthosiphon      pisum)_Lesser Wax Worms (_Achroae grisella)_Newly-hatched Wax Worms (_Galleria mellonella)_Hatchling Black Crickets (_Gryllus_ _assimilis)_Hatchling Banded Crickets (_Gryllodes sigillatus)_ 
_The Fruit Fly will be a staple_ dietary item, and should be provided more than anything else. Feeding should occur 3-4 times a week but not everyday though to prevent obesity and promoting natural behavioral patterns. 

Anyway, hope this helps you out a bit. 

Joshua Ralph
Moderator

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Cliygh and Mia 2, ColleenT, DigitalPunk

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## bill

Lord I was born a rambling man.......

Wow josh, that was seriously informative. I learned a ton from that. Now, I have a question. Aren't some, like ranitomeya, tree dwellers to begin with? I mean, aren't they canopy dwellers who never even see the earth in their lifetime? 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Joshua Ralph

> Lord I was born a rambling man.......
> 
> Wow josh, that was seriously informative. I learned a ton from that. Now, I have a question. Aren't some, like ranitomeya, tree dwellers to begin with? I mean, aren't they canopy dwellers who never even see the earth in their lifetime?


Haha thank you  :Smile:  And indeed, they are some species within _Ranitomeya_ and other _genera_ that do infact remain in the canopies, however out of the 18 genera and 298+ species, its hard to remember which ones have their personal preference :P

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## Paul

WoW Thanks for the informative post Josh! I learned a bunch from it!

All Darts (as Josh said) are opportunistic hunters. If Springtails are busy munching on a leaf and the darts spot them, they will eat them. Keeping a Dart Vivarium stocked with a health thriving Micro fauna population is key. Not only will the darts feed on them (as sort of a snack) the micro fauna will also consume decaying matter within the vivarium and turn it into nutrients the live plants can then use. A properly setup Vivarium will function like a mini eco system. You simulate rain and day/night cycle and introduce FF on a daily basis, the rest takes care of itself.

You will need to restock Springtails, Isopods, or any other micro fauna you use to keep the population up and thriving (this combats the darts consumption). 

As for tank size. As it has been said before by others. The size of the tank will vary depending on the species housed in it. My son housed 2 Azureus in a 20L Horizontal tank for months. We just recently upgraded them to a 40B Horizontal. We reduced the depth of the drainage layer to add a few more inches to the height of the tank, but this will result in more frequent draining of excess water from the tank.

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## ColleenT

to be honest, the biggest thing i am worried about is the vivarium and how to make it right. i know i need to pin point a frog to figure out what is needed, but i do feel overwhelmed by the vivarium. i have also considered Phyllobates Vittatus. but i think i have decided on the Azureus. IF i were to decide to get darts.

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## Paul

Vivariums can be as easy or complicated as you want them to be. For your first build it is best to keep it simple.

Do a drainage layer (2" deep) with soil (3" deep). Add about 2" of leaf litter, some wood and plants. Go with plants that are easy in your first tank. Things like Pothos (which Azureus love to climb on), Moss, ferns. to name a few. 

Don't cheap out on the light, get a good quality LED light. Aquatraders - Guaranteed Best Prices on Aquarium Lightings + Free Shipping! has some of the best pricing. If you don't know which one to get ask and we will help!

Get a basic glass aquarium thermometer for temp readings, get a Digital ExoTerra Hydrometer (this will be critical while you learn how your tank holds in humidity.

Get the tank setup for 15 - 30 days before you buy frogs.

Order some FF cultures in advance of the frogs and practice setting up cultures and practice shaking some flies out into a cup to feed from. FF are not hard, but take a few tries to get the hang of it. I have a video up on my youtube channel that covers creating FF cultures and feeding them to your frogs. 

Ask all the questions you have, We are all here to help each other, learn from each other, and support each other.

Paul

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## ColleenT

will the plants be ok with LED lighting?

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## Paul

Absolutely. As long as the lighting is at 6500K color temp plants will thrive. I have LED lighting on nearly all my tanks now and the plants are going CRAZY.

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## ColleenT

next question- if i do a vivarium with Leca instead of a false bottom, how long can the vivarium last without me having to tear it down?

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## Eli

If you do a water feature, leca is not an option. Only a false bottom will work. If there is no water feature leca will be fine

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## bill

> If you do a water feature, leca is not an option. Only a false bottom will work. If there is no water feature leca will be fine


Not true actually. My member's choice palu was a drainage layer tank. You just need to have a taller drainage layer.  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## bill

> next question- if i do a vivarium with Leca instead of a false bottom, how long can the vivarium last without me having to tear it down?


With proper maintenance and micro fauna, years. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Eli

> Not true actually. My member's choice palu was a drainage layer tank. You just need to have a taller drainage layer. 
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


Oh i see. From what i had read, i thought you needed a false bottom. Well at least i learned something :Smile:

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## ColleenT

thanks!! still researching...

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## bill

> Oh i see. From what i had read, i thought you needed a false bottom. Well at least i learned something


It's just easier with a false bottom, but it can be done with both  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## ColleenT

but if you have a false bottom, on't you need to find a way to filter the water? I am hoping to avoid that.

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## bill

Unless you choose to do weekly water changes, yes, filtration is necessary. This can be simple as water moving through the substrate, or more complex like submersible filters  or canister filters. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## ColleenT

i really prefer things to be as simple as possible. so i guess i would do the Leca and substrate on top and a low water dish i could clean or switch out daily.

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## bill

No water dish is needed for darts.  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Josh

This is correct, you just need high humidity, because frogs absorb water through their skin from the air around them. If you're on a really tight budget, you can buy all of your plants from Lowe's, Home Depot, and other hardware stores, as long as you treat the plants before putting them in the viv. In fact, the Home Depot and Lowe's near me have recently been getting a lot of "exotic" plants that you normally wouldn't see throughout the year, including pilea, begonias, fittonia, etc.  :Smile:

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## Paul

Another way to make the Leca drainage layer even easier as far as maint goes is to drill the tank and install a drain at the Max waterline so the water leaves the tank as it fills up. Drilling a tank is super simple, but is nerve wracking for me lol. 

You can also install a tube down into the drainage layer with a sponge on the end (the sponge will keep the tube from getting clogged) and just siphon the excess water off as needed. 

Filter water is easy enough to do (as previously stated) you can use a basic filter, external canister filter, or a sponge filter. I have tried several methods, but so far my favorite is a simple sponge filter. It is what I am using in my Mantella tank. Or as Bill said just siphone off 25% to 50% of the water weekly. 

It really is all about how much weekly work you are willing to commit to.

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## ColleenT

yeah, for me, a filtration system is one more headache. i would try to not have one and go with a general damp woodland viv.

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## bill

The absolute best thing you can do when building a Viv, is research, research, research. Decide on a species of dart and research the heck out of their natural habitat and try to mimic it. Whenever I set a tank up for a specific species, I will read tons of articles, as well as look at hundreds of pics of their environment. When I feel I'm satisfied, I try to blend all those pics together in my head and form on single scene. I know it sounds a bit OCD, but it works for me.  


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## ColleenT

i am trying to read all i can right now and asking Q's. Thanks.

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## ColleenT

i have made my decision to get 2 Azureus. I got myself a 20 high tank, i ordered a conversion kit lid from junglebox, i ordered Josh's false bottom leca type stuff, substrate barrier, abg mix, long fiber, sphagnum moss, live oak leaves, and 2 springtail cultures. and a coconut hut. i want to find a couple pods, little ones. i also got a manzantita? branch. this is all on it's way now, and i can let everything settle in the tank. i still need LED lights, and i can get pothos at Lowes. 

Q- if i order the frogs online from the same dealer, do i need to quarantine them each separately, or can i QT together? is it always better to QT separate? how long do i need to QT, and do i need to have anything specific in the QT tank? i was thinking, damp paper towel, and a hide area.

Q- how many melanogaster per juvie frog per day? i worry about them hiding. i do plan to have springtails in the viv, but want to offer FF.

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## ColleenT

next Q- do you put the entire culture of springtails into your tank, or do you remove the charcoal?

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## awelcome

on Josh's Frogs site they said you can mix the charcoal along with them into your ABG mix (which already has some charcoal as well) or you can add them separately by pouring water into the container so they float and then pouring that into the viv.

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## ColleenT

i was asking what each of you do personally.

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## awelcome

I am still trying to establish my culture before I add any..... not sure how it's going, but so far I don't see many moving around so I am assuming it's not "booming" yet so I am waiting.  I had two cultures sent, and it was a question of whether or not enough survived the heat to add some right away and start a culture so I just threw them all into a culture.

But when I am ready, I am going to just dump a few in with the water method.  Mine came in an ABG mix to start, and I put them into a charcoal culture.

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## ColleenT

Beuller? Beuller? 

Q- if i order the frogs online from the same dealer, do i need to quarantine them each separately, or can i QT together? is it always better to QT separate? how long do i need to QT, and do i need to have anything specific in the QT tank? i was thinking, damp paper towel, and a hide area.

Q- how many melanogaster per juvie frog per day? i worry about them hiding. i do plan to have springtails in the viv, but want to offer FF.

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## bill

Sorry, been flaking lately. If you are getting them from the same breeder, you can qt them together. 30 days is a good 'standard' for qt time. You'll need damp, unprinted paper towels, a hide area and some plants for them to climb around and hide in. Care in qt is no different than in their permanent home (daily feedings, misting, ect)

You'll figure out the feeding when you get them. To be honest, I don't count fruit flies. I go with a guesstimate and the adjust after seeing how they feed. Make sure you keep a spring culture going as well as ff, the darts will snack on the springs in between meals.  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## ColleenT

thanks. springtail culture is on the way. actually have 2 on the way so i can keep one on the side. just curious about how many ff they generally eat. i am guessing i might not see them once they move into the big tank. so i guess i just have to try to guess at QT.

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## bill

Well, as you know from your gray's, frogs are individuals. Some eat more than others. That's why I start lower. It's also another reason we qt all frogs. It gives us time to be close and personal with them where we can see them openly. After a week of qt, you'll have a routine for them, just like you do with your gray's. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Paul

Our azureus consume a decent amount of flies per feeding. When we first got them they would eat D. Mel Fruit flies, but they were almost to big for them and tended to prefer springtails.

Fruit Flies - Start off with less than you think you need and watch them eat. If them quickly consume all you put in drop some more in near them. As they get older they will naturally eat more and more. What we do is check the tank in the morning just after the first misting - any fruit flies still in the tank well start running around. If we see a decent amount in there from the yesterdays feeding we feed less today. You always want to add fresh flies to the tank daily and dust with a supplement with each feeding. If you want I can share my dusting rotation with you.  We feed out adult Azureus and our to baby Azureus the same size flies. They are a smallish frog so the Hydie would be to big for them.

Springtails. Not only will you need to seed the tank with some when you set it up you will want to have a breeding culture going that you can pull some springs from and dump into the tank from time to time. The breding culture can be setup in a small plastic tub (you can get them from the dollar store) no need to poke holes in the lids. (you can also just buy the Springtail culture kit from Joshs frogs or NeHerp). It will take the breeding culture about 30 days to hit the first population boom. Once that happens you will have a lot of springs. We add more springs to the tanks roughly once a month or more often if we see the frogs decimating springs throughout the weeks. This is all a guessing game as we don't dig through the tank looking to see how many we find. Rule of thumb --- No such thing as to many springs in your tank.

To add a culture of springs to a new tank I setup I just dump the culture strait into the soil before I begin adding hardscape or plants. 


Drop the food (Springs or Fruit Flies) in the same spot in the tank eat time you feed. Frogs are smart and will eventually show up to the feeding area when they are hungry and begin searching for food. Frogs do not like to have their food dropped on their head. Its a shame when that happens :/

Paul

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## bill

> Our azureus consume a decent amount of flies per feeding. When we first got them they would eat D. Mel Fruit flies, but they were almost to big for them and tended to prefer springtails.
> 
> Fruit Flies - Start off with less than you think you need and watch them eat. If them quickly consume all you put in drop some more in near them. As they get older they will naturally eat more and more. What we do is check the tank in the morning just after the first misting - any fruit flies still in the tank well start running around. If we see a decent amount in there from the yesterdays feeding we feed less today. You always want to add fresh flies to the tank daily and dust with a supplement with each feeding. If you want I can share my dusting rotation with you.  We feed out adult Azureus and our to baby Azureus the same size flies. They are a smallish frog so the Hydie would be to big for them.
> 
> 
> Paul


That's what i said! Ok, not in so many words, but still! Lol



Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## ColleenT

2 springtail cultures are on the way. i have a container ready for the 2nd culture. got some melanogaster, will get supplies ready and make more. i would not have thought the hydei would be too big, but i've never seen them in person. my melanogaster are SO small. i also have rice flour beetles-larvae, but they are a pain to sift out.

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## ColleenT

ooh! new Q. I plan to use Leca, substrate cloth, AGB, sphagnum moss and live oak leaves. should i use a heater under the tank for humidity for my Azureus? my house is usually about 70 f winter or summer, and i will be misting a few times daily. and if i use a heater will it bother the springtails?

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## Eli

I think it might bother the frogs. I think that it might add extra humidity to the tank but i know dart frogs like it cooler than most tropical species. Im not sure with all those layers that the heat pad would be enough to affect either the temps or humidity though

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ColleenT

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## Carlos

> ...should i use a heater under the tank for humidity for my Azureus? my house is usually about 70 f winter or summer, and i will be misting a few times daily. and if i use a heater will it bother the springtails?


_D tinctorius_ Azureus prefer temps in low to mid 70's and can tolerate down to 65F.  Long exposure to high temps above 80F can be dangerous.  You do not need any heat source; specially one under the substrate which is a no-no for frogs.

Humidity is maintained by manual misting (I do twice a day) or with the use of misters/foggers controlled by timers or automatic controllers  :Smile:  .

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ColleenT

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## ColleenT

thanks guys. i didn't think i needed heat, but i did not know about using it for humidity reasons. ok, no heater.

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## Happy Frog

I kept my mated pair of D. Tinctorious "Azureus" in a twenty gallon long for close to two years and they bred like crazy.  I ended up moving them to a twenty gallon tall because the 20 long just got too overgrown and yucky.  I designed my 20 long so there was driftwood up against the back and allowed them to climb a little.

I believe the length was more important to them than height.

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