# Frogs & Toads > Fire Belly Toads (Bombina) >  Need your input!  Going to be setting up my first FBT tank!

## Jen

I am a sneaky little devil 

To anyone familiar with me, they will know my husband is not fond of the creepy crawly.  Thus far my tanks have only been able to house anything aquatic - fish, axolotls,  and frogs such as African clawed frogs and African dwarf frogs.  No "land" critters allowed as he doesn't want them to roam the house. (He really is terrified of them, even little anoles)

I want to redo my 26 gallon bow front for Fire Bellies.  My LFS has a bunch and their set up is about 8" water enclosure with an island.  When hubby saw it, all the frogs happened to just be sitting in the water. He agreed I could get some.  (I think he also really liked their colors)

YIPPEE

So the largest tank I have to use is my 26 gallon bow as the 20 gallon long is set up for my ADFs and my 72 gallon is set up for discus.   I didn't want to just do a 10 gallon. 

This is where you people come in.   

1) I have sand, rocky gravel and medium (1-3" size) rocks, tall amazon sword plants and driftwood.  I was thinking of getting some larger tupperwares and siliconing sand and rocks to make ledges. Nothing will be siliconed to the actual tank in case I get them another tank down the road and reconvert this to fish.  I have lots of extra heaters and filters around also so the "water" part will be filtered at all times. 

2) How deep is too deep?  The tank is 20" tall.  I was going to have about 4-6" of air space and 14-16 inches of depth, or is this too deep? 

3) Would the appreciate those stick on vine plants going down into the water or no?

4) I was planning on feeding crickets, dusted every other feeding, and earth worms.  I was planning on feeding every other day when young and every three days  when older.  Does this sound right?

Feel free to throw out ideas and what I need to change...I am all ears! (well, eyes, but you know what I mean!)

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## Creamballman

you can do pretty deep if you want, like basically an aquarium, but then you MUST have a haul-out are or these guys will drown. Better to feed every 1-2 days, but it really depends on what (how fattening) you feed, and how many. Better not to have small rocks to avoid impaction (my guys jump at crickets even in water, some don't though). I personally only have 3 inches deep of water.

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## Jen

Thank you so much!  
I am going to be playing with the tank for a bit. I have a large ( Very large) piece of driftwood that looks like a tree...I am going to see if I can fit it in and then find a way to turn the top of the "tree" into the main part of their land area.

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## Creamballman

Yeah, I have a 3X10 piece of plexiglass siliconed in to separate land(coco fiber) from water

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## blindderik35

hi jen, THATS A HUGE TANK THEY WILL LOVE IT.I RECOMMEND YOU USE A FILTER SYSTEM AND SEPERATE HEATER FOR THE WATER .MINE LOVE THIER SEPERATE WATER FALLS TOO. OH YEAH I ALSO USE 2 TIMERS 1 FOR DAY BULB AND 1 FOR NIGHT(PURPLE) THE NIGHT LIGHT IS LIGHTLY HEATED AND WITH THIER VISION IT LOOKS JUST LIKE THE MOON TO THEM.

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## Jen

Water will be filtered and heated.  Probably two filters so I can try and make a waterfall area with the outflow. 

Is the night bulb essential? I thought a normal aquarium light was all that was needed.

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## Sherry

They do not need a heater for the water. They like it cooler. :Smile:  They do not need a night bulb, mine do fine without one. They like the water to be still, so I don't know about having a waterfall. I would read the FBT care article if you haven't yet. Frog Forum - Fire-Bellied Toad Care and Breeding - Bombina orientalis and relatives Have fun! :Smile:

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## Jen

I did read that article and have been reading a lot of pretty much everything I can find online due to low response volume.  

I read it was best to keep the water around 72-74*F (if I average the info on this and other sites and unheated my water temp seems to be in the 60*s on this side of the house - North/North East) with depth not being an issue with adequate land mass.  I am probably going to have it about half filled to play up the tree like form. I am diligent with water quality and always over filter rather than under filter.  The filter outputs will of course be directed in a way for minimal surface movement. Multiple climb out points is my goal. 

I will post a picture once I am able to get the tank set up, hopefully tomorrow as I emptied all stock out of it this evening (was housing Angelfish juveniles).

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## Jen

And now the fun of draining the tank to add the driftwood so I can play with out getting soaked.  Also have to add a deeper sand bed so I can really root everything into place.  Have the sand already rinsed in my back yard (I got up early as the afternoon calls for rain!)

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## Jen

Ok, waiting for the sand to settle.   (Excuse the glare, at this time in the day there is nothing I can do about sun light coming in through the blinds. Also, these are taken by my phone and not my camera as the camera is charging so I can take good photos of the frogs when I get them! )

Only ended up using one filter for now as the Fluval U2 is good for 30 gallons and there is probably just over 10 gallons in the tank. It has three out flow options - out of the top, out of the bottom, and out of the middle.  I have it currently set for out of the bottom so all waste etc in the water will get moved around to the filter but the top of the surface doesn't move. 

I have a "reptile dish" thing that I had originally bought to use as a feeding dish in my axolotl tank until I got it home, peeled all the labels off, cleaned it and then realized it floated.  Now it and a large rock (to make sure it is completely balanced and doesn't wobble in the slightest, have made a type of platform in addition to all the branches. 

Will look much better once the sand fully settles as you will be able to see the "tree" like appearance and all the climb out levels.  

I put a floating betta log in to for good measure, may end up taking it out if they don't use it.

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## Jen

Wasn't sold on how the reptile dish/rock combo looked.  It ruined the whole tree effect I think...maybe I'm wrong.

I took it out...how does it look with out it? Enough land area?  I can add a few more pieces of driftwood too....

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## Jen

Ok.  Added more driftwood, took out rocks and now I am happy. 

Makes it have much more climbing areas and a more natural feel.  I will be adding more plants eventually, have a small amazon sword in the tank now and some water wisteria left floating.  Excuse the "wet" look to the wood. I had it soaking. 

Will add vines in evenutally. 

How does it look?

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## Carlos

Hello Jen!  Been quietly observing your FBT tank and it looks good to me.  Agree with rock removal and going all driftwood.  What kind of sand did you end up using?  I see most of it is fine but there is also what looks like larger size gravel in there; will that be an impaction problem?  Guess not with depth of tank and if food floats.

Looking forward to seeing your frogs swim and wonder if they will use all the depth or stay near top.  Most FBT enclosures I've seen have only 2-3 in. of water in them.  Do you plan to add fish to tank?  If so, which species?  Also, see some Wisteria in there, would add some plants that shoot broad leaves to top where frogs could climb on.  Have fun and good luck  :Frog Smile:  !

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## MatthewM1

Tank is looking great. Love the driftwood, it's gonna be fun watching them hunt the crickets off of it. 

They won't use the depth of it, if startled they may dive down and hide at the bottem but that's about it. Fish would go great in there. I personally don't believe that the toxins excreted will harm them especially with that volume of water and regular water changes. I've got 2 white clouds, a blueberry shrimp and a mystery snail in with mine and everybody's happy

Sent from my LG-P930 using Tapatalk 2

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## Jen

I added a few of my extra guppies to the bottom for movement.  
The frogs are settling in right now and are LOVELY


I will be able to get better photos once it is evening so that there is no glare to deal with =)

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## Creamballman

Of you want to use fish with fbt, they can be for feeders every once in a while(they are fattening), but otherwise they will die pretty quick because fire belly toads are somewhat toxic.

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## Jen

If the guppies pass I won't be overly heart broken but I have found multiple threads in my search (not just here) where a form of livebearer inhabits the deep water tanks and seem to do alright. 

Sun will be down soon and then the photos can begin!  I started taking a few but there was a bit of glare coming from the other side of the house.  (bow front tank picks up a lot of glare in pictures!)

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## Ryan

For this tank i would lower the water so its only around four inches, Or you
could use large cork flats for your toads to rest on. I have my FBTs in a temporary
15 gal terrestrial setup with a large water bowl, I provide a hide with plenty of
 moss and plants, for this tank you can keep the tank this way and maybe 
put some Java moss on the edge of the water,

Have a nice day!  :Smile:

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## Jen

Ok first the tank photos...and then the amplexing photos!  These guys are worse than ACF when it comes to getting it on!  Is it normal for them to be barking and amplexing so early in a new tank? 

When I first bought them, I thought I just had 3 light green, 3 darker green.  Now that they have settled in the color variety is amazing.  I also have a two toned one (green and brown) and one with two very interesting spots on the back of its head.  Lime green, gray, olive, brown/green....I am thrilled

Tank and frogs

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## Jen

It has been over an hour now...They are going all over the tank and the female dives down taking him with her. 
I haven't seen any eggs yet thank goodness.  


Short video clips in the bottom 




http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Je...00e1d.mp4.html
http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Je...7d077.mp4.html
http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Je...db525.mp4.html

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## Jen

Just got a couple pothos trimmings from my aunt.  About 8-10 inches long.  Do I do anything special to get them to grow in the tank or do I just make sure the snipped end is in the water and the leaves trailing?

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## Brian

I'd just give the pothos a good rinsing and make sure the snipped end is submerged a few inches. Leaves that are lying in the water tend to go mushy, so try to keep them in the air as much as possible (they can be trimmed if they start to go off). My standard for propagating pothos is to take pieces about the size you have and put the stems in a glass of water, provided they don't dry out they can live this way for years.

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## Jen

Thank you so much!

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## Ryan

The most likely case with the barking and amplexing is that you 
either have a breeding pair or you have two confused males, 
usually sucsessful amplexus will take several days. The breeding
 behaviour may just be a change in temperature or water

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## Creamballman

Yeah I have two males constantly barking amplexing, FBT do it a lot

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## Jen

Is there a way to definitively tell their gender by appearance?  Does the really pimply back indicate male?  (almost looks like a bump on top of a bump).  I have been going crosseyed trying to figure out who's who!  And to confirm what I read, only the males sit there and bark, right?   I had a few barking at once so I was just curious. 

I picked up some pillow moss today from my LFS.  Once I got it out of the bag I rinsed/soaked it for a few hours and just put it in.  I am loving how this tank is coming out!!! A few crickets went uneaten, I assume that they will either drown and I will fish them out in the morning or a couple of the frogs will get a snack tomorrow.

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## Jen

Tank:


Looking inside the cover
To the left


To the right


Frogs:







All six in one photo!!! Yay!

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## Jen

Well live and learn...at least in this small ratio of water (about 12-13 gallons) the toxicity effects the fish. The guppies all were dead when I woke up this morning.  The frogs had settled in much more yesterday and were in and out of the water all day.  I think this increased the toxicity levels in the water.  It is over filtered also  with a 30 gallon filter running on it (cycled of course!)

Oh well.  It looked nice while it lasted.  The frogs seem to have settled in quite well!

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## s6t6nic6l

> I did read that article and have been reading a lot of pretty much everything I can find online due to low response volume.  
> 
> I read it was best to keep the water around 72-74*F (if I average the info on this and other sites and unheated my water temp seems to be in the 60*s on this side of the house - North/North East) with depth not being an issue with adequate land mass.  I am probably going to have it about half filled to play up the tree like form.   *I am diligent with water quality*   and always over filter rather than under filter.  The filter outputs will of course be directed in a way for minimal surface movement. Multiple climb out points is my goal. 
> 
> I will post a picture once I am able to get the tank set up, hopefully tomorrow as I emptied all stock out of it this evening (was housing Angelfish juveniles).





> Well live and learn...at least in this small ratio of water (about 12-13 gallons) the toxicity effects the fish.   *The guppies all were dead when I woke up this morning*  .  The frogs had settled in much more yesterday and were in and out of the water all day.  I think this increased the toxicity levels in the water.


 the guppies ain't dead coz of the toads toxins. you have set this up in the space of hours with new décor and water then introduced fish into the equation. why would you set this up with fish in mind to any setup you have with your other fish if your diligent about water quality? PH, nitrates etc !!. p.s. having a few branches to cling to does not relate to having adequate land mass. I don't see the toads fairing well in this setup i'm afraid due to unfavourable conditions placed on them. just my opinion mind.

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## Hidr

Very nice. I sure hope you have great luck with these guys. Watching this post closely for idea for my 10 gallon tank.

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## Jen

Might have come off harsher than meant but that is one of the limitations of a forum - tone cannot be conveyed through text.

With no more fish I will work on redoing the tank with in the next few days to increase the land and reduce the water level.

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## Jen

Ok.  Reduced the water to just a few inches.  Sloped the sand to the right and used large flat rocks to make a landing area. 

Thoughts?





Hanging out on the other side of the tank while I set up the right side.  They were not happy with me!


Enjoying the new area



Confirmed male! Finally.  I have repeatedly watched him call and mount other frogs.

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## Hidr

Just a couple questons.
How do you know if they have ate? Are you taking them out to feed them?  How do you find all the dead bugs they don't eat?  
Just wanting more tips for my 10 gallon set up.

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## Jen

I watched mine eat.  They ate most (75% or more) of the crickets with in an hour. The next morning the rest were eaten or floating.  I used reptile tweezers to grab the dead ones to remove them.


And make that 4 males.  I really hope the other two are females!  (I am just going by the "if it barks, its a male" theory. If this is wrong please correct me!)

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## Creamballman

No, females can bark too, it just sounds different. You have to assume its a female until you see it mount, that's my method because only males mount. Also, the tank looks really nice, just make sure you clean it every week as they can be harmed by their own toxins.

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## Jen

Oh ok, I thought females only barked if the male tried to grab on and they weren't in the mood.  

Will females just sit there and bark like the males?

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## Creamballman

Not as much, but they still do sometimes i believe. Like i said, it sounds a little different. Males and females can make a trilling release call

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## Jen

Okay well so far I have seen 4 of the 6 frogs just sitting there, by their lonesome, barking.  I will assume these are males for the time being.   I have one that I am sure is a female...she is a bit smaller but much more round with skinny little arms.   The 6th one I am not sure of at this point.  I haven't seen it bark but it is more slim then the other one. 

Will I have problems with so many males/so few females?

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## Creamballman

As long as they are about the same size, no. Have you seen them in amplexus?

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## Jen

Quite a few times...numerous of the "males" have mounted the assumed "female" ...  The one in question has not been seen mounted or mounting.  (That was a weird sentence to type lol)

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## Jen

Besides barking, is toe webbing an accurate way of telling?  Arched on female, straight on male? If so...I think I have 5 males.  Only the one I suspected of being female as the arched webbing and the other five have it straight across their hind feet. I found someone with a reverse ratio of me...they have ALL females and are looking for a male. Think I may trade a male for a female but I am not sure....Am I at the stocking point of my tank or could I fit another frog? (After quarantine of course)

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## Creamballman

Well, like I said, the ones you saw mounting are males. the "mounted"(?) can be either. As for the webbing, I'm not sure but there may be some theory or such out there.

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## Jen

Ok, by observing them I would say I definitely have 5 males and 1 female.  The LFS I bought them from has some from the same order still in the store. I may see if I can go pick out a few more females and may rehome a few of the males. 

I am also unable to get the tank in a way that I find pleasing, so using egg crate, foam and zip ties I am going to make a ledge, planning on covering it with gravel/sand/rocks to make it look appealing. 

That is this weeks project.  I already cut the egg crate.  I am going to have it run down the entire length of the tank (minus room for the foam to expand) and sit about 9-10" high. I plan on housing the filters underneath (hence the height) and one side is about 4.5" wide and the other side is about 6" wide.  The narrowest part of the tank is 10".

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## Jen

Picking up a couple more females tomorrow.  Will probably rehome a few males once I have picked my favorites.  Since these females are from the same exact order of my current frogs, I won't bother with a quarantine period as they are from the same source.

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