# General Topics > Vivarium, Terrarium & Enclosure Discussion >  Brand new 55 Gallon

## Amphibians

I went to the Long Island Herp Society Expo today in Farmingdale. Kind of lacking in frogs, not much diversity, but i did get a huge 55 gallon tank with a lid and an enormous light for only 30 bucks. I dont know if its haunted or something, but i had to take advantage. It was kind of spur of the moment so i have NO idea what im going to do with it. Any suggestions? I have a whites tree frog, a mossy frog, and a fire belly. I know they cant really live together, But i was thinking maybe a 60-40 land-water thing with the whites so i could have some fish too. Theres of course also the option of selling it, but i think i want to trick it out. Interesting ideas please!

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## John Clare

Kurt knows about keeping things with White's.  Right Kurt? :P

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## Kurt

Sure do, John, sure do. There are fish in with my White's. There is also a small soft-shell turtle, who will eventually have to go at some point. 

That being said it is a fine line between success and disaster. Your best bet is to get nothing but captive bred animals, that includes the fish, turtles, frogs and/or geckos. Filtration should be strong and sufficient, there are two filters in my tank. You must know all the species you plan on keeping very well. Know everything about their biology. How big do they get? What do they eat? How will you feed the arboreal members of this community? Are any of them toxic? Are any of them carriers for diseases, such as chytridiomycosis? What environmental conditions do the like? When taking about this type of community, there are several balls you must juggle and you can't drop a single one of them.

I have been working with exotic animals just about all of my life. I have worked in the zoo and pet industries, so I do have a lot of experience. Would I recommend making a community set up involving fish, reptiles, and amphibians? No, I would not. Not unless you have a ton of experience, are willing to do all the research, and be prepared for  failure. Of course when you fail the animals pay the price. So think long and hard, about this before you try it.

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## Tom

But what can you say might or know can work with white's?

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## Kurt

Most tropical fish will work with White's, but should be captive bred to minimize cross infection. Even then its almost impossible to gurantee there will be no cross infection, especially of gastrointestinal parasites. Also avoid live-bearers as they need salt to live and salt is detrimental to amphibians. Avoid large predatory fish or small surface dwelling fish. Turtles can be real tricky. Most turtles get to big to be housed with most frogs. Small turtles that need to bask may become prey for a frog. Geckos maybe a little easier to assimilate into a multi species enclosure such as this, but how do you feed them? Crickets and other feeder insect drown so easily, and most geckos aren't hand able.

Now do you understand why I do not advocate mixing species?

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## Amphibians

Ok well it sounds like im not qualified to try that, i dont want to endanger any of my animals. I had a black and green dart a while ago that died, im thinking about having maybe four of them in this tank.

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## Tom

What is a small turtle that you can keep with them? Can you keep spotted turtles with them?

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## Kurt

Not if you live in Massachusetts, they're illegal here and native. Also, White's are tropical while the spotted turtle, _Clemmys guttata_ is a temperate zone species that does not take kindly to warmer tempertures. Captive bred babies probably wouldn't be safe with a White's any way.

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## Tom

Oh but is there anything that you can keep with them?

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## Kurt

Spotted turtles? Maybe fish and treefrogs found in the same areas.

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## Tom

What about gray tree frogs, spotted turtles, and a small (around 3-4 inch fish) fish from that area I am sure there are some.

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## Kurt

That might work, but I am not going to endorse it. Spotted turtles are much bigger than gray treefrogs and may view one as a potential meal. It might work with a smaller turtle, but there may be trouble with an adult. Also check your state laws, spotted turtles are illegal to possess in a few different states.

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## Tom

Legal in Colorado. The turtles get to 5 inches but are really slow growers and the frogs get to 2 inches I think. If I got a yearling spotted turtle I think it would be ok.

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## Kurt

One way to find out.

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## Tom

Hmm the denver zoo keeps spotted turtles, cuban night anoles, barking tree frogs and gray tree frogs I would think the cuban would eat tree frogs.

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## Nora

Hi Tom - I'm new here - but not new to turtles.  I've been keeping turtles for several years and have raised a few spotteds from hatchlings.  I've spent a lot of time thinking about doing a mixed tank with spotted turtles - from the outside they really do seem to be prime turtle candidates for such a set up.  They like shallow water, don't tear up plants too much and so on.  Here comes the but.  Spotteds can be a bit quicker than you think as they get older and are more fragile than they seem when they are younger.  I've kept spotted turtles with fish and snails - the fish are fancy guppies and the snails have either been the so called mystery snails or the little hitchhiker types that look like large dark grains of rice.  Anything that moves is potential food and mine eat just about everything and anything that moves - and that is why I haven't added frogs - didn't seem like a healthy prospect for the turtle or the frog.  During the summer outside I've seen some spotteds consume tads as well, surely they would try to tear up a frog if the chance presented itself.  

While I find spotteds to be one of the most beautiful turtles some of the smaller bottom walkers would better suit such a viv as you describe, stripe neck musks come to mind - smaller than spotteds, better swimmers and they almost never come out on land (nesting only IME) choosing instead to rarely bask partially submerged  and generally shyer by far than spotteds thus less likely to chase down a frog.  I've seen similar sized spotteds and musks react differently to prey such as earthworms or fish -spotteds work themselves into a frenzy chasing them down and the stripeneck musks usually run and hide from anything but snails.

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## Tom

Yeah I spent like 5 minutes searching for the frogs never found them, I think the spotted turtles got to them. Also I don't really like the Denver Zoos view on keeping animals together. They keep _Dendrobates tinctorius_ , (the former) D. Azureus and D. leucomelas together in the same tank and I saw one of the leucomelas in amplexus with a tinc._
_

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