# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Beginner Discussion >  Thinkin' about darts again

## Brett

I'm thinking about getting a pair of dart frogs-one male and one female-and keeping them in a 20-gallon long, provided that's enough space. These will be my first dart frogs, so which kind should I get?

----------


## clownonfire

20 gallon will be very nice for a pair of D. Tinctorius (Azurius, Powder Blue, Cobalt - note that if you are thinking about getting azureus, you shouldn't put two females together as they are very territorial, but that's not what you are aiming for).  :Smile: 

Some of our members here are very happy with D. Leucomelas. These do really well in pairs and groups. 

Another beginner dart frogs are the D. auratus.  As opposed to the tincts and leucs, these are semi-arboreal.... therefore you would need to think about building a viv that will have lots of places to climb (tincts and leucs will also be caught climbing, but they are mostly terrestrial frogs). 

These are just a few choices you may want to consider... There are lots more to chose, but it's a good starting point. 

When you build your viv, you'll have to think about keeping it very humid, and make sure it stays at least at room temperature. Seeding springtails in advance will also be beneficial for the viv as the frogs will feed on this microfauna... and the springtails will also be playing the roles of janitors in your viv, eating feces and dead leaves, etc.

Have you thought about culturing fruit flies? It will be your frogs main source of food.... Something to consider...

Keep us posted!

Eric

----------


## Leefrogs

I been thinking bout them too.  I wanted to do study a whole lot before making decision on species. Had a question, if it's a larger viv do territory issues go away?

----------


## clownonfire

Actually, like any other frogs, you will need to be careful about how many frogs you will put in an enclosure. Some are much more social, like the leucs, while some like the azureus are more territorial, and females tend to be extremely aggressive with other females in a closed tank. So for tincts, it's a good idea to pair them male-female in a tank.

If you plan on having larger groups, make sure you have lots of space, lots of hiding space and plants or pieces of wood that could act as a visual separation.

Also, juveniles don't have that territorial trait. I will be getting 5 juvenile P. terribilis, which will be housed together in a 29 gallons and I will separate them in about 12-18 months.

----------



----------


## Brett

What temperature range do darts need? What kind of plants are best for darts in a 20-gallon tank?

----------


## clownonfire

> What temperature range do darts need? What kind of plants are best for darts in a 20-gallon tank?


Generally speaking (and it can vary), a range of temperature of 70-80 F is suitable. Keeping it around 75 is good.

As for plants, often enough, when you read "darts" you'll often read "bromeliads". What you want to do is mimic their natural environment. Michael Lawrence (PoisonBeauties) on this site is a great reference. In my dart frog vivs, I have bromeliads, oak leaf figs, creeping figs, orchids, and one that I like a lot, Blushing Philodendron.

----------


## Brett

Alright, a few more questions:

-How many D. Leucomelas can fit comfortably in a 20-gallon, long tank?
-How do I maintain 80-100% humidity?
-What kind of lighting do I use?

----------


## Brit

This is a great thread, thanks for starting it, I'm really interested in this information as well and will be reading along. My personal favorite of darts frogs are the _D. Auratus_, I just love their blue to green and black coloration. I'll probably start thinking about getting a pair of these in the future.

----------


## clownonfire

> Alright, a few more questions:
> 
> -How many D. Leucomelas can fit comfortably in a 20-gallon, long tank?
> -How do I maintain 80-100% humidity?
> -What kind of lighting do I use?


I would put a pair of leucs in a 20-gallon, perhaps a trio. I wouldn't go above that. Maintaining humidity will be achieve by:

Putting a sheet of glass over your terrarium cover. Glass keeps the humidity in. Hydroballs will also help keeping good humidity. And if you do not was to purchase an automatic mister such as the Exo-Terra Monsoon or the Mist King, you will need to spray your terrarium at least twice a day. What you want is a wet environment. So twice a day, and good sprays. I suggest getting a digital hydrometer to make sure you keep track of the humidity. For example, I have two of them in my 29 gallon to make sure humidity is kept on all sides of my viv.

Lighting in itself is not necessary for the frogs. However, it will be for the plants I have mentioned above, and for most plants you will be getting for a dart frog viv. In my 29 gallon, I use two Exo-Terra Glow Light fixtures with each a 13w Repti Glo 2.0 Compact Full Spectrum Terrarium Lamp. Some members here use 26w. My plants are doing fantastic with a 13w. Other members here will use T5s and/or T8s. Here's a thread on lighting I started a few weeks back: http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...art-frogs.html.

----------


## Brett

Thanks a lot for the info, everyone. By the way , what to the numbers and species names in your signatures mean?

----------


## Brit

> Thanks a lot for the info, everyone. By the way , what to the numbers and species names in your signatures mean?


Eric there informaed a little while ago that the numbers are "male.female.unknown _frog name_", you put the number of each category you have and then the frog's scientific name, to avoid confusion.

----------


## Brit

> I would put a pair of leucs in a 20-gallon, perhaps a trio. I wouldn't go above that. Maintaining humidity will be achieve by:
> 
> Putting a sheet of glass over your terrarium cover. Glass keeps the humidity in. Hydroballs will also help keeping good humidity. And if you do not was to purchase an automatic mister such as the Exo-Terra Monsoon or the Mist King, you will need to spray your terrarium at least twice a day. What you want is a wet environment. So twice a day, and good sprays. I suggest getting a digital hydrometer to make sure you keep track of the humidity. For example, I have two of them in my 29 gallon to make sure humidity is kept on all sides of my viv.
> 
> Lighting in itself is not necessary for the frogs. However, it will be for the plants I have mentioned above, and for most plants you will be getting for a dart frog viv. In my 29 gallon, I use two Exo-Terra Glow Light fixtures with each a 13w Repti Glo 2.0 Compact Full Spectrum Terrarium Lamp. Some members here use 26w. My plants are doing fantastic with a 13w. Other members here will use T5s and/or T8s. Here's a thread on lighting I started a few weeks back: http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...art-frogs.html.


So I'm assuming that dart frogs don't require the same amount of ventilation that tree frogs do then? Because of the piece of glass? I have seen someone I know do this for their bearded dragon tank, but I assume that was to keep the heat in, since bearded dragon's need a lot of dry heat.

----------


## Don

> So I'm assuming that dart frogs don't require the same amount of ventilation that tree frogs do then? Because of the piece of glass? I have seen someone I know do this for their bearded dragon tank, but I assume that was to keep the heat in, since bearded dragon's need a lot of dry heat.


Your guess is right on Kisa.  You can pretty much completely close up the viv since when you open the top, that will be enough to change out some small amount of air.  Also, the plants produce much of the needed oxygen and the viv maintains itself.

Biggest need to any air movement is some plants which require some type of circulation to thrive.

----------

AsianHerps

----------


## Brit

> Your guess is right on Kisa.  You can pretty much completely close up the viv since when you open the top, that will be enough to change out some small amount of air.  Also, the plants produce much of the needed oxygen and the viv maintains itself.
> 
> Biggest need to any air movement is some plants which require some type of circulation to thrive.


Alright thanks Don, that info is helpful. Right now I'm operating off my knowledge of tree frogs for deciding what I'm going to do with a pair of darts (hopefully some morph of D. Auratus, I LOVE those. ><). I've noticed that darts do like longer tanks, is that right? I have my small 10 gallon that I'm using right now for Mr. Wayne and wondering what I was going to do with it once he's big enough to join Bruce Campbell. Cheri suggested I modify it for a different pair of frogs. I was thinking turning it on it's side and manufacturing a door would be the best way to do it, but can I just leave it the way it is? I read somewhere that D. Auratus like to climb more than other darts, but they're mostly found on the ground. And is a ten gallon even big enough for two D. Auratus? O: (sorry for hijacking your thread Frog Whisperer, I didn't realize how many questions I actually had...>>)

----------


## clownonfire

Auratus are mostly terrestrial. They will climb a bit, like leucs and tincts. But they will be happy on a flat ground, with ondulating landscapes. So yes, these will strive in horizontal vivs (as opposed to thumbs who will be happier in vertical vivs). As for space... I personally think 10 gallon is too small for a pair of auratus... These are bold frogs and they will explore. Why not give them lots to explore!  :Wink:

----------


## Brett

I don't know whether to get D. Leucomelas or D. Tinctorius. How do I know if I'm getting a male or female?

----------


## Leefrogs

usually u have to pay more fir a sexed pair.


Great thread dude

----------


## Brit

Eric thanks I must have read it wrong, I don't know where I got the idea that they were more arboreal, I must be confusing them with another species. I would love to give them all the room they desire but unfortunately I just don't really have the space...do you think a 15 gallon would be ok for a pair or should I just go for a 20? Keep in mind this won't be for another few months, I'm looking for a job right now and I want to have a steady income before I think (haha obviously I've already thought about it XD) about getting more frogs. Those durinal (sp?) Darts are so tempting! ><

And I think for the sexing it really depends on who you're dealing with, as in which breeder you plan on buying them from. I'd be willing to pay a little more for a sexed pair, I like having one of each gender, if I hadn't had a pair of themed names for my White's I would've wanted a male and female too. XD But Ginger's right I have seen sights asking for a bit more for a sexed pair.

----------


## bshmerlie

Kisa I was at LLL reptile a couple of weeks ago and they had some baby Luecs that would do great starting out in your horizontal 10 gallon. They prefer horizontal which you already have, they are social frogs so you wouldn't have to worry if you got two boys or two girls, and they are very bold and would be out and visible often. Being just babies you could keep a pair of them in there for awhile. Then down the road when you catch the dart frog bug you can turn the tank vertical and go with a couple of imitator thumbnails.  You can build your experience with the leucs and then move into thumbnails.  See...you've just got to have a plan. Strange...my plan is to always find a way to get more frogs. :Big Grin:  you can get all glass hinged lids for your 10 gal at Petco for about 13 bucks. Being all glass that will help keep your humidity where you want it. Just some thoughts. And buying the frogs local you wouldn't have to worry about shipping cost.

----------


## Brett

How and where can I get live moss for my dart frog tank?

----------


## bshmerlie

Joshs frogs is a great place to get moss and he give you plenty of it.

----------


## Brit

> Kisa I was at LLL reptile a couple of weeks ago and they had some baby Luecs that would do great starting out in your horizontal 10 gallon. They prefer horizontal which you already have, they are social frogs so you wouldn't have to worry if you got two boys or two girls, and they are very bold and would be out and visible often. Being just babies you could keep a pair of them in there for awhile. Then down the road when you catch the dart frog bug you can turn the tank vertical and go with a couple of imitator thumbnails.  You can build your experience with the leucs and then move into thumbnails.  See...you've just got to have a plan. Strange...my plan is to always find a way to get more frogs. you can get all glass hinged lids for your 10 gal at Petco for about 13 bucks. Being all glass that will help keep your humidity where you want it. Just some thoughts. And buying the frogs local you wouldn't have to worry about shipping cost.


This idea is totally great Cheri, thanks for sharing. Unfortunately I think if I do get a pair of Darts I'll only be able to get one, tops, final, forever, unless at some point I want to "replace" them or I move out and get a bigger place, and if I can only get one I have my heart set on D. Aratus.  :Frown:  Not that I don't like Bumble Bees, they're great! It's just...if I spend my money on one and only one pair of Darts I really wanted to get the Aratus. Another thing is though I do want to start out with babies, it will still be a few months before Bruce Wayne is big enough to introduce to Bruce Campbell's tank, and by that time the babies will have become adults and I'll need to buy them a bigger tank anyway.

I do have another idea for my ten gallon, once I'm done with it, though. I was making a list the other night of frogs I want, just sort of an unrealistic wish list, and I found that Albino Red Eyes have gotten my attention. Those along with Clown or Hourglass tree frogs, they're absolutely stunning! If I turned my ten gallon on it's side and modified it for a swinging front door and a screen top, wouldn't it be perfect for one of any of these frogs? I'd like to keep them in pairs if possible, but if the gallons and my budget don't fit I'll have to settle for one of either species. The tough part is choosing the Albino Red Eye or the Clown/Hourglass (those I slash because they're so similar in appearance).

----------


## clownonfire

Kisa, your info is right. depending on the morph, you will read them as to be arboreal and/or terrestrial. What they are is bold and they will explore your tank. I read somewhere too that you should not go any lower than a 30 gallon. But as you know with frog info, it can differ.

Cheri's plan is a good one. I will be receiving 5 P. terribilis within the next weeks, froglets. And they will be in my 29 gallon, which as adults would be too small. I'll move some into another tank when the time comes. 

And here's what I can add. When I first started with frogs, I bought brand new tanks, which with the cover costs a fortune. After my first two vivs, I started looking on kijiji, which is like Craigslist in Canada, and of course the latter. And since then, I have been buying my tanks on these sites. Just last week I got an amazing 50 gallon cube and a 29 gallon for $20... as a bundle!! Yes, there is work to be done on them, but isn't it part of the fun? We build vivs from scratch... so to clean it, repair it is such a pleasant process... As for finding the perfect deal... When you are at your 8th viv, you know you'll wait for the right ad to pop along...

As for a sexed pair, I had experience similar to what Kisa has described. I asked for one, and got exactly that. Some breeder will be able to give you a male or female if you ask. 

And as for moss, a few members here got some from Josh Frog by mail...  :Smile: 

Eric

----------


## Brit

> Kisa, your info is right. depending on the morph, you will read them as to be arboreal and/or terrestrial. What they are is bold and they will explore your tank. I read somewhere too that you should not go any lower than a 30 gallon. But as you know with frog info, it can differ.
> 
> Cheri's plan is a good one. I will be receiving 5 P. terribilis within the next weeks, froglets. And they will be in my 29 gallon, which as adults would be too small. I'll move some into another tank when the time comes. 
> 
> And here's what I can add. When I first started with frogs, I bought brand new tanks, which with the cover costs a fortune. After my first two vivs, I started looking on kijiji, which is like Craigslist in Canada, and of course the latter. And since then, I have been buying my tanks on these sites. Just last week I got an amazing 50 gallon cube and a 29 gallon for $20... as a bundle!! Yes, there is work to be done on them, but isn't it part of the fun? We build vivs from scratch... so to clean it, repair it is such a pleasant process... As for finding the perfect deal... When you are at your 8th viv, you know you'll wait for the right ad to pop along...


Oooh I see, thanks for the info Eric. I know about your P. Terribilis, I can't wait to see pictures! >< 5 new froglets all at once, it's gonna be insane. XD You've really caught the dart frog bug, eh? XD;

I did read that _Aratus_ are one of the bigger and bolder Darts, but I think I have my heart set on them. As long as I can provide the proper space and situation for them, those are the Darts I want to get. I really love Understory Enterprise's "micro spot" morph, it's absolutely stunning! >< But of course this plan probably won't come into action before summer, by then hopefully I'll have a job and the money to spend on a new 30 gallon for a pair of them. Craig's List is a good idea...I might start looking around if I can find a good deal. I have a few months anyway. XD; I can also ask the breeder about tank size, I tend to want to go with whatever was closest to their frog/gallon ratio in their tanks. I know they house a lot more than just a pair at a time, but I thought an 11 gallon would be too small for my Tiger Legs and Mike Novy said that should be alright. If they start showing signs that in fact it is too small, then I will definitely change them out and use the 11 gallon for something else.

Cheri's plan is great, but like I said unfortunately it doesn't fit my situation right now. I'd love to get a pair of baby Darts from LLLReptiles and not have to worry about shipping and all that, but by the time I'm ready to have the Darts they'll be adults (won't they), and like I also said, I really have my heart set on the _Aratus_. How long does it take Darts to get from froglet to adult size anyway, does anyone know? That info would be really helpful.

And what about my 10 gallon Albino Red Eye or Clown/Hourglass Tree frog idea? I thought it was a good plan, at least I'd be using the viv for an animal that I know could fit comfortably in it, right? O:

I don't know, all this is a long way off and my plans could change from now to then, but right now this is what I feel I want to do. Now if Mr. Wayne would grow a little faster...>> I'm itching to start a viv build of my own. My dad already went out and bought me a can of great stuff from Home Depot, I'm thinking about a themed viv. Gah, I'm so impatient.  :Frown:

----------

