# Frogs & Toads > Tree Frogs >  Blue Phase?

## Crystal6

I've heard several people mentioning their white's being "in the blue phase". What does that mean?  :Confused:  Is it a stage in their growth in which they turn blue? Or do some white's have a permanent blue skin pigment?

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## Alex Shepack

There are certain White's that are blue colored, that is what they mean when the say "blue phase." These individuals are traditionally (I think always) of the Australian variety.  

Alex

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## Alex Shepack

I should also note that the other variety is Indonesian.

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## Kurt

They really don't look blue to me. At least not like a _Dendrobates tinctorius_ "azureus", now thats blue. At best I think (Australian) White's have a blue tinge to them, but they are still green.

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## 1beataway

I see blue.  :Frog Smile:

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## Ebony

I reckon, especially when you see it next to the Green. Very nice.

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## Kurt

> I see blue.


I see blue tinges, but I would still call that frog green.

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## scribbles

They aren't very blue, but compared to the standard green White's they look different. Here's a pic of my blue phase with my normal green one.

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## Kerry1968

Turquoise Kurt? I think that frog could pass as turquoise!

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## Crystal6

> They aren't very blue, but compared to the standard green White's they look different. Here's a pic of my blue phase with my normal green one.


^ That one is definately blue.  :Big Grin:  Are they harder to find then green/brown White's?

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## 1beataway

How about teal?

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## Crystal6

> How about teal?


*control c* *mspaint* *control v* *looks up color*

Red: 88
Green: 83
Blue: 87

Therefor it is purple! XD But I call it blue anyway because the blue still outweighs the green.
Besides in some spots its...

Red: 100
Green: 110
Blue: 119

Which means blue out weighs the red AND the green in those spots. I think....

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## 1beataway

Aren't those colours gray?  :Confused: 

I have no problem calling them blue. But Kurt does.  :Frown:  So, there's gotta be some shade he agrees with.  :Big Grin:  Kerry started it, but I want to continue.


How about cerulean?

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## scribbles

They can be harder to find. I found mine at PetSmart.

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## Crystal6

> Aren't those colours gray? 
> 
> I have no problem calling them blue. But Kurt does.  So, there's gotta be some shade he agrees with.  Kerry started it, but I want to continue.
> 
> 
> How about cerulean?


Sorta gray yeah. The picture used was kinda dark though. Here's my own frog for a comparison:

Red: 205
Green:224
Blue:108

^ As you can see mine has about double the red and green by comparison to the blueish one.

I really think the lighting affects it though. The green one in the picture with the blue ones is...

Red:125
Green:131
Blue:59

Yeah. MUCH less blue by both of them. Therefor it is blue. <_< >_> In my world. Where having less blue pigment by comparison to your other pigments makes you not blue and having more then the others makes you definately blue. Though, I have not taken any advanced art classes so, I'm probably way off from whats officially correct.

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## 1beataway

Oh, I see what you did!

Well, Luigi is:

Red:36
Green:108
Blue: 122

(at one of the darkest spots on his body)

Therefore...he is mostly blue.  :Smile:

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## Crystal6

> Oh, I see what you did!
> 
> Well, Luigi is:
> 
> Red:36
> Green:108
> Blue: 122
> 
> (at one of the darkest spots on his body)
> ...


*checks* Oooh you're right.  :Big Grin:  Neat. I wonder if you breed two blue ones if they have blue off spring.  :Cool:

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## 1beataway

Well, maybe at least Kurt won't be able to argue that it's a mostly blue phase.  :Big Grin:

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## Kurt

> They aren't very blue, but compared to the standard green White's they look different. Here's a pic of my blue phase with my normal green one.


They are still both green. The one on the left has more yellow in it and the one on the right more blue, but they are still both green.

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## 1beataway

> They really don't look blue to me. At least not like a _Dendrobates tinctorius_ "azureus", now thats blue. At best I think (Australian) White's have a blue tinge to them, but they are still green.


With a picture of azureus and paint, I found out that the bluest blue of this frog was: 

Red: 36
Green: 77
Blue: 165

That's not far from Luigi bluest blue: 

Red: 36
Green: 108
Blue: 122

So therefore...you must agree with me. 

 :Big Grin:

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## Kurt

Do I have to? My eye still sees green.

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## 1beataway

Are you sure that your eyes don't see a tiny bit of red, some green, but mostly blue?  :Big Grin:

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## Crystal6

> They are still both green. The one on the left has more yellow in it and the one on the right more blue, but they are still both green.


Explain your amazing deductive logic.  :Frog Surprise:

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## into

Here's my comparison shot and I agree with kurt.... still green.  You can;t go by digitized RGB values by picking a single pixel as a sample. The *lighting* and *camera* would give you different values.  Besides, "green" is probably more subjective anyway... as any combination of blue and green could be either blue or green depending on one's own perception.  We had a previous discussion about a red White's tree frog.


When I look at my white's I see a warmer yellow-green (Jade) and a cooler blue-green (Dumper). If Dumper was next to something I would consider blue, he would look very green. Ok, maybe he is teal?

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## Kurt

I did go to art school (college) and I am scale modeler (national champion status). I know green when I see it and can tell the differences between different shades. I know how to mix paint to replicate those hues. 
In the frogs previously posted, one green has more yellow, the other more blue. It still doesn't make one yellow and the other blue.

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## 1beataway

But the picture of my blue wasn't next to a regular White's!

I do think the colour is closer to teal though.

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## Crystal6

> I did go to art school (college) and I am scale modeler (national champion status). I know green when I see it and can tell the differences between different shades. I know how to mix paint to replicate those hues. 
> In the frogs previously posted, one green has more yellow, the other more blue. It still doesn't make one yellow and the other blue.


So colors of paint? Or... blue-green then?

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## Kurt

Using Chris' photo as an example. Both of my White's look Dumper, but I still call them green not blue. Blue phase to me just doesn't exist. Sure some have a bluish tinge to them, but they still are not blue, they're green. And the differences between Jade and Dumper doesn't suggest to me any kind of phase or morph, as they really aren't that drastically different. Does this make sense?

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## 1beataway

There is most definitely a difference between the blue phase and the regular White's. So...what would one call it if not blue?  :Big Grin:

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## into

Here's another comparison.. skin on skin.

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## 1beataway

That's a great picture.

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## 1beataway

> Using Chris' photo as an example. Both of my White's look Dumper, but I still call them green not blue. Blue phase to me just doesn't exist. Sure some have a bluish tinge to them, but they still are not blue, they're green. And the differences between Jade and Dumper doesn't suggest to me any kind of phase or morph, as they really aren't that drastically different. Does this make sense?


I do understand what you're saying, but I disagree. I see a difference. One of my blues doesn't look much like a blue, but I still see a difference sometimes. I usually don't see much of a difference between the colorations of bearded dragons, but they exist.  :Big Grin:

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## into

> I do understand what you're saying, but I disagree. I see a difference. One of my blues doesn't look much like a blue, but I still see a difference sometimes. I usually don't see much of a difference between the colorations of bearded dragons, but they exist.


After seeing pictures of whites and in stores, there does seem to be 2 distinct colors (at their most vibrant) of whites.  The greenish ones and the bluishgreen ones.  I also don't believe there is a mutation involved as I have yet to see a different color or a combination of the two.  Of course when they are darker shades throughout the day, I see grey, purpleish, red, brown, dark blue, etc...

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## 1beataway

I'm not sure if I think it's a mutation. Are the two colours from different places, or the same place? Is it more like recessive and dominant traits? There is a variety of colours that both will show, but there's still the frogs that get to that blue-ish green, like you said.

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## into

> I'm not sure if I think it's a mutation. Are the two colours from different places, or the same place? Is it more like recessive and dominant traits? There is a variety of colours that both will show, but there's still the frogs that get to that blue-ish green, like you said.


From what I've read "blue phase whites" are morphs created by selective breeding... from what most people say, it's a ploy to charge extra money for them. Dumper wasn't labeled as a blue phase, but as an Australian White's Tree Frog.  Jade was labeled as an Indonesian White's Tree Frog.  They had them in separate enclosers and charged extra for the aussie variety.   I have another one (scooter) who was labeled as a "blue phase" and I paid the most for him.  He is always dark colored so I can't tell what he really looks like at his brightest. Someday I will put them all together to see if there is a range from bluish to greenish.

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## Kurt

> there is most definitely a difference between the blue phase and the regular white's. So...what would one call it if not blue? :d


green!!!!! :Big Grin:

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## 1beataway

So, then we would have White's Tree Frog and the Green Phase White's Tree Frog? 

How about teal? I still like teal!

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## Kurt

> I do understand what you're saying, but I disagree. I see a difference. One of my blues doesn't look much like a blue, but I still see a difference sometimes. I usually don't see much of a difference between the colorations of bearded dragons, but they exist.


Don't get me started on beardies. I guess the point I am trying to make is there is not enough differences here to call them phases or morphs, and certainly not enough to charge more money for one or the other. No matter what you call them at the end of the day they are all still green and not blue (the frog, not the beardie). Show a "blue" phase White's to someone outside of this arguement, hobby, subculture, what color the frog is and they will answer green every time.

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## Kurt

Teal is not even a real color. It a made up by furniture upholstery people to sell more (White's) couches.  :Big Grin:

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## 1beataway

I've always seen the two frogs at the same price, just with different names. They always include the word "Dumpy" on them too. Which is why I'm so use to calling mine blue dumpies.  :Big Grin:  I don't think it's worth having different names to sell them at different prices. But I still like the different name. 

At the store I work at, regular bearded dragons are $60. Pastels are $120. Sometimes I see a difference, but sometimes I don't, and I think it's lame.

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## 1beataway

> Teal is not even a real color. It a made up by furniture upholstery people to sell more (White's) couches.


Do you only believe in primary colours?  :Big Grin:

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## Kurt

Me too.

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## Kurt

> Do you only believe in primary colours?


No, mostly I hate furniture salesmen. I can't stand Bob of Bob's Discount Furinture. He is so annoying. http://www.mybobs.com/

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## into

> No, mostly I hate furniture salesmen. I can't stand Bob of Bob's Discount Furinture. He is so annoying. http://www.mybobs.com/


 
I hate furniture salesmen too..  I can't browse without them attacking and staring and stalking you.  I really hate it when they stalk you and try to sell you teal living room sets.

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## 1beataway

Come to think of it, I hate furniture salesmen too. They all gave me weird looks when I came in asking for just an endtable, at least 18x18, that would be sturdy enough to hold a vivarium.  :Frown:

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## 1beataway

> I hate furniture salesmen too.. I can't browse without them attacking and staring and stalking you. I really hate it when they stalk you and try to sell you teal living room sets.


Teal living room sets are the worst! I hope you didn't buy.

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## into

> Teal living room sets are the worst! I hope you didn't buy.


No, we went with a modern african art/aztec look.

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## 1beataway

Modern aztec or ancient aztec?

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## into

Although this is not scientific, I wanted to do my own RGB test. Here are the results I got using averaged (100x100) color samples of Dumper and Jade. This is why I consider Dumper to be green. The shadowed area is what I percieve as being "blue". Both frogs fall outside of this range...

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## Kurt

There's a modern Aztec?

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## Kurt

> Although this is not scientific, I wanted to do my own RGB test. Here are the results I got using averaged (100x100) color samples of Dumper and Jade. This is why I consider Dumper to be green. The shadowed area is what I percieve as being "blue". Both frogs fall outside of this range and are closer to each other than either of them are to my blue range.


Thank you, thank you, thank you. One more time for emphasize, thank you.

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## 1beataway

He used the word modern before "africa art/aztec." I was just checking  :Big Grin:

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## 1beataway

> Although this is not scientific, I wanted to do my own RGB test. Here are the results I got using averaged (100x100) color samples of Dumper and Jade. This is why I consider Dumper to be green. The shadowed area is what I percieve as being "blue". Both frogs fall outside of this range...


No! Don't help his argument.  :Frown:

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## into

> No! Don't help his argument.


sorry, I'm on Kurt's side with this one... kind of.... There are millions of colors. 16.7 according to my video card  :Wink:  there are millions of greens, millions of blues and every one would have thier own idea of where the frequency cutoff between the two would fall.

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## 1beataway

What would you call the blue phase then? 

And thank you to both of you for getting me to compare green to blue to teal instead of doing homework.  :Frog Smile:

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## into

> What would you call the blue phase then? 
> 
> And thank you to both of you for getting me to compare green to blue to teal instead of doing homework.


I am supposed to be doing school work too. Too bad I already took my color theory class, ... all I learned from that class was that the Southwest Airlines has a wonderful color scheme.

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## 1beataway

Color theory? I've never taken a class like that (maybe you guys will think that's why I think the frogs are blue!)

I was sick eariler, but should have started on homework by now. But then I got onto these forums.

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## into

> Thank you, thank you, thank you. One more time for emphasize, thank you.


 
No problem Kurt, visual communication is what I do for a living.  :Smile:

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## Alex Shepack

Wow. Who would have thought that this would become one of the most discussed messages on FrogForum. Hahahahaha

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## Crystal6

> Wow. Who would have thought that this would become one of the most discussed messages on FrogForum. Hahahahaha


XD Well no one else is discussing it. My arguement: It may not be directy definately blue but you must admit that one frog is *definately closer to blue than the other.* (Also my brother who is not a frog fanatic in any way agrees that one of those frogs is definately blue in his opinion, though perhaps it is not blue enough to be considered "true blue".) So for people who are specifically interested in white's tree frogs *closer to blue*, what label would you like us to give them? (Personally I think they look much cooler in that little... area between green and blue that is apparently still green)

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## scribbles

They are more blue than the green phase, but are still green.

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## 1beataway

I still go with teal.

And yeah. What a ridiculous conversation.  :Big Grin:  It's Kurt's fault.

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## Crystal6

I just want to know what I'm supposed to call them. It's indisputable that some frogs are more blue then others (though still green by official standards) but I can't call them "in the blue phase" because they're still apparently green. Yet I need to call them something or it'll be like "Hey I have a bunch of... white's tree frogs that are sorta blue looking but actually green due to color spectrum stuff. Do you want some?" to which I will get a bunch of confused stares and akward silences. Despite them not being blue, I've noticed a lot of members seem to prefer "white's tree frogs in the blue phase" as opposed to the standard green/brown variety.

So, fine I admit they are officially green and not blue due to green covering a wider range of hues then blue. However, I need something to call white's that obvious have more blue than yellow in their green. What do you suggest?

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## Alex Shepack

You can "officially" call them "blue".  Most people know them as such, and regardless of their actual color, we all understand what you mean.  Also, most people will infer that they are the Australian variety given the "blue" coloration, but you can throw that in there as well.  

Alex

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## 1beataway

Today during lunch I was telling my mom that the store I work at was going to have White's Tree Frogs on sale. I had to take a minute to explain that "White" referred to the man who discovered them. But after that point, I said, "It sucks though. Only the regular White's will be on sale, not the blues." And she asked what the blues were, and I told her that's what I had, and she said, "But they're not blue." 

 :Frown:

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## Crystal6

> Today during lunch I was telling my mom that the store I work at was going to have White's Tree Frogs on sale. I had to take a minute to explain that "White" referred to the man who discovered them. But after that point, I said, "It sucks though. Only the regular White's will be on sale, not the blues." And she asked what the blues were, and I told her that's what I had, and she said, "But they're not blue."


 :Cool:  Just a matter of opinion to me.

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## Kurt

> So for people who are specifically interested in white's tree frogs *closer to blue*, what label would you like us to give them?


White's treefrogs, if you really need more than that, try Australian White's treefrogs.

Last night I had an Indonesian White's treefrog staying the night. I took him to the vet today for a friend. He was more to the yellow side of green, when compared to my Australian White's treefrogs and a lot bigger then mine too. Sadly a lot louder than mine too! Scared the **** out of me at one point. It was dead silent, then all of a sudden a loud "Waaa". Thankfully, he is out of my home and back at his home.

The vet diagnosed it with "red-leg" by the way.

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## 1beataway

Kurt,

Are all of the non-blue blue ones from Australia, and the regular ones from Indonesia, or does Australia have some of the more-yellow-than-the-non-blue-blue White's?

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## Kurt

I believe the Australians to be more on the bluish side of green and also have a tendency to be smaller than their Indonesian counter parts. I wouldn't be surprised to find out somewhere down the road that they are two distinct subspecies.

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## 1beataway

So then...can the two kinds be mixed in a terranium? I had been taught at work they could be...wouldn't be the first time we learned something that wasn't necessarily true.

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## Crystal6

*watching conversation with great interest*

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## 1beataway

> *watching conversation with great interest*


The answer is still blue.  :Big Grin:

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## Kurt

> So then...can the two kinds be mixed in a terranium?


I don't know. The Indonesian that was here last night was big enough to eat my Australian White's.

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## 1beataway

> I don't know. The Indonesian that was here last night was big enough to eat my Australian White's.


I think that would be worth investigating. Even if they were the same size, I wonder how they would do together. Are their habitats the same? If they are the same frog, just different colouring, I would assume they could, but if their habitats are different, then maybe they need to be separated. 

Personally, I'm not sure I'll get the regular (Indonesian) White's. I like the non-blue blues.

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## Crystal6

> I think that would be worth investigating. Even if they were the same size, I wonder how they would do together. Are their habitats the same? If they are the same frog, just different colouring, I would assume they could, but if their habitats are different, then maybe they need to be separated. 
> 
> Personally, I'm not sure I'll get the regular (Indonesian) White's. I like the non-blue blues.


If I remember correctly one has a more pronounced supratympanic ridge then the other. (Suggesting coloring is not the only thing different about the two)

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## 1beataway

It would be interesting if there were a few differences between them.

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## Kurt

> If I remember correctly one has a more pronounced supratympanic ridge then the other. (Suggesting coloring is not the only thing different about the two)


That would be the Indonesian.

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## Kurt

> Are their habitats the same? If they are the same frog, just different colouring, I would assume they could, but if their habitats are different, then maybe they need to be separated.


White's come from many different types of ecosystems in Eastern and Northern Australia and the island of New Guinea. I think it is safe to say that the Indonesian and Cape York specimens are rainforest inhabitants. While those found in New South Wales could be considered to be in a temperate zone and those from the Outback are arid zone dwellers. The adaptability of this species makes it a hardy one and that contributes to their popularity, especially amongst beginners.

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## scribbles

> White's treefrogs, if you really need more than that, try Australian White's treefrogs.
> 
> Last night I had an Indonesian White's treefrog staying the night. I took him to the vet today for a friend. He was more to the yellow side of green, when compared to my Australian White's treefrogs and a lot bigger then mine too. Sadly a lot louder than mine too! Scared the **** out of me at one point. It was dead silent, then all of a sudden a loud "Waaa". Thankfully, he is out of my home and back at his home.
> 
> The vet diagnosed it with "red-leg" by the way.


Haha. One of mine chirps to the sprayer bottle. They both jump me at night crashing into the vines.

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## kevinpilon1

> I see blue.


this frog. is. amazing.

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