# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Beginner Discussion >  Building a tank have a few questions

## pogigod

hello all,

I'm looking at building a tank to house a comunity of dart frogs. The dementions are 28 inches by 28, and I haven't decided how tall I want it yet. I was wondering what you guys think about the height. I'm thinking about 24inches high(roughly 81 gallons). I wanted to incorporate a waterfall in one corner with a little "creek" that runs along the side of the tank to the other corner which will be where the pool will be. In the pool I was going to put a led fogger. 

I was looking at the clay balls for drainage, but from talking to people I've heard that these balls eventuallty start retaining an ordor after a few months. So instead i was thinking about aquairm rocks. I was wonder what everyone thinks about this.

Lighting, since i want this to be a live plant tank I need some kind of lighting on it. It is going to be kept in a finished basement so there is no natural lighting, and it does tend to stay from mid 60's to mid 70's depending on the time of year. I wanted to have a black light stip light on the tank at night with some colorful decor in there so the tank looks nice at night, since the room is used as a movie room. I'm worried tho that the tempeture drop at night without a heating source might be a little much for the frogs.

For misting I was going to have a misting unit to mist the whole tank a few times a day...

I would like to have an array of colors in the frogs, and also would like noisy frogs lol......

Would like to hear some feedback and advice about my idea, before i go out and start buying. 

P.s sorry for all the miss spellings, I'm tired and spell check isn't working lol

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## Lynn

Hi Matt, 
Again, Welcome to Frog Forum.  :Smile: 
May I respectfully suggest you do plenty research as to WHY this should be avoided.
Mixing different species of dart frogs is a challenge even for the ,very ,most experienced PDF keepers.

There are thousands of little communities in the BIG ( hint  ! BIG ) rainforest where different species may occupy the same small area.
It is done in captivity..........*BUT*
It is definitely an advanced keeper's undertaking. 
One needs plenty of experience with darts of ALL species.
One needs lots of practice with ,successful, natural terrarium set-ups. 
One needs years of observation of each species and their habits.


That's my 2 bits
This is a great topic for discussion  :Smile: 
Lynn

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## Lynn

Great basic information
Dart frog care -  BambooZoo

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## Lynn

An intelligent and objective opinion !

see post #8
http://www.frogforum.net/beginner-di...-vivarium.html

Still not recommended for a beginner though ! One would want practice with these species.

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## pogigod

oh sorry, I worded that wrong, only one type, but different subtypes... I'm looking at just having Dendrobates in the tank, but with different subtypes and color morphs.

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## Lynn

That's ok
These things are great to have good conversation about.
Where you able to check out the links I had in the reply?

While you're planning (even though they are small) keep in mind they need space. 
Some say 5 gallons/frog; 
Subtracting the space substrate, plants, background etc. takes up........all begins to minimize actual space allotted to the frog.

You want to consider what area of the enclosure the frog will be spending most of its time in as well. In a group, the more they a have to share a small space will increase the day to day stress.  :Frown: 

ie
 an exo terra -  18x18x24 is about 33 1/2 gallons.
 about 18x18x6 " is taken up w/ sustrate  --  reducing usable space by about  8.5 gallons ---leaving you with 25 gallons

Food for thought !

Then there is the argument of same species different morphs. That's dangerous territory in PDF land. Highly frowned upon.
Interbreeding will muck-up the color morphs.  :Frog Surprise:

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## bill

even housing different sub-species together can bring about disaster. territorial disputes in the rainforest are not handled as "well" as humans. normally a fight to the death ensues. ok, so they are just like us...lol but look, i'm going to be realistic here, you are going to do with your frogs what you want to, so i can help you with the build itself. 

more details are needs such as what material you are planning to build it from? if you plan on running an ultrasonic fogger, you are going to need a water reserve, so a false bottom would be better than a hygroton base. how are you planning on sealing it to keep humidity levels stable? heating options? you also have to decide on a pump for your water feature, and how you plan to filter the water.

i'm going to suggest to you to browse through the different build logs on here and on the net and you can get a better idea of the challenge you are up against. any questions, feel free to ask.

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## pogigod

If there is inter breeding, they I'm going to keep all the new ones, so it wont mudd up the gene pool. the tank size is 81 gallons, and i was planning on 8 or 9 total.   
Yes i was planning on having a 2 in false bottem. The waterfall its going to be 2 Whisper In-Tank Filter 10i - 90 gph so a double waterfall, working as a filter and a way to bring the water up levels, also was looking at other simular types.... planning on having a lid that is almost air tight, it will have 2 cut outs for wires and one for the misting unit.... 
the heating and lighting is where im stuck at.

And yes ive read tons of different build logs and pretty much 70% of the forums. I do research before i build anything, the frogs are in the future, im more looking at the build for right now, i wanna get it all built and stable, with live plants growing before introducing the frogs themselves

edit: alright was looking at the amount of liquid i would have with a 2 inch water base and it isnt enough, so i'd probably go with a 4'' water base, and get a different filter, one that has tubing to suck water out of the pool and bring it up to the filter, since those 2 filters will filter the water 180x an hour

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## pogigod

like i said since it is in a basement, the tempature gets a little low at nights, mid to low 60's during the winter, i will buy a gauge today and see just how low it falls. I dont think the floresenct lighting will give off enough

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## bill

if you are using a false bottom, then you can use an aquarium heater for regulating temperatures. i highly recommend AGAINST using a preset one. they are garbage. spend the few extra bucks on a good, quality, adjustable heater, such as a fluval or eheim. also, buy bigger than you think you need.

the whispers are "ok" filters, but even 2 of them is going to be light on the size area you are thinking about. if you have your heart set on those, go for the 20i at the very least. remember, you are going to plop a couple hundred $$ on frogs, why risk their health and welfare of the cheapest filter known to man?? LOL  i understand budgets are there, but when it comes to the heath of my frogs, or fish for that matter, i would rather save a bit extra and spend the extra money on good equipment. also, those whisper filters need a large access space to be able to change media. and they are tough to conceal. you could always use something like a zoomed 501 or a tom's rapids canister filter and modify the outflow as a drip wall, spray bay, what have you.

you never did say whether this was going to be a custom glass or wood enclosure, or a stock one. to this date, no one makes a 28" light. 24" yes, 30" yes, 28 no. so i can't make a lighting recommendation without more info.

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## pogigod

its going to be plexiglass enclosure, everything is going to be plexi, but will probably have some kind of supporting on the seals, probably wood.... I was just giving example with the whisper filter, I normally buy fuval or marinelife products. I have a really nice heater for a 40 gallon tank with an adjustable levels of heat, but would that heat the air also? i would think it might heat the ground but end there... I'm expecting to spend 400$ on just the set up, so money isnt really the issue, the reason im building the tank it self is because i have a corner table unused  that i want the tank to fit perfectly on.

I already have a 24'' fluorescent, which i was going to hook up a uva uvb light, and getting another one for a black light at night.... I have a surge protecter that has timers on it for day lights and night lights, that i had for my salt water tank.

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## Lynn

> like i said since it is in a basement, the tempature gets a little low at nights, mid to low 60's during the winter, i will buy a gauge today and see just how low it falls. I dont think the floresenct lighting will give off enough


My tanks are in my basement as well. 
I - carefully - use heat emitters . I have to--- otherwise the ambient temp is 68-low 70's in the winter.

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## Alex Shepack

Lynn directed me over here, so i'll weigh in as well.  

First lets talk species mixing.  As has been noted above, it is generally really frowned upon.  If you want to mix species, maybe consider species that exist in the same area? I wouldn't suggest mixing things like _tinctorious_ morphs.  First of all, they aren't group frogs.  Also, they can interbreed and that really isn't helpful or necessary.  I know you weren't even mentioning them, but that species mixing post that was linked in discussed them.  Mixing can work well though. I've seen tanks with _Ameerega_ and _Hyloxalus_ mixed together.  I've also seen tanks with _Dendrobates leucomelas_ and _Epipedobates anthonyi_ together. Both of those were successfully done.
 Space is a huge concern, there needs to be sufficient room for the frogs to separate themselves (having a really well planted tank helps too).  Also consider species that occupy different niches, more terrestrial and more arboreal species for instance.  
Of course, we're all a bunch of purists.  At the Yale Peabody in the Discovery Room there is a dart tank that has _Phyllobates terribilis, Phyllobates bicolor_, _Dendrobates tinctorious, Dendrobates azureus_ (which is really just a _tinctorious_ morph), _Epipedobates anthonyi_ and _Dendrobates auratus_. Now I certainly wouldn't recommend that set up, but all the individuals concerned were adults (there are several of each species) and I know that when I was there recently the _Epips_ were calling and in amplexus.   So yes, it can be done.  I should mention that the setup I just mentioned is a little concerning because there can be some serious competition for food and space in a tank like that.  

Ultimately, it's your decision.  You could also consider keeping darts with other groups of herps, like small geckos or even Marbled Newts.  (I can't wait to hear backlash about that one!)


As for your tank build, i'm going to differ to Bill. My tanks are, how shall I say it, "functional".  I definitely wouldn't use aquarium gravel.  That stuff weighs a ton! If you want to have some serious water depth, maybe consider a false bottom.  If you want to use some sort of substrate, hydroton is fine.  I've never had a problem with it smelling.  I also just got a bunch of "grow stones" which are even lighter and cheaper.  The actual brand Hydroton is ceasing production and now sort of difficult to get.  I've even seen people use filter foam as a base layer.  
As for the pump, i'm definitely differing to Bill.  I've been really considering making a tank with a drip/waterfall background for some new additions this summer! I really like the look of those zoomed turtle canister filters, and from what I understand they'll work with shallow water levels, which some canisters won't do.  
Lighting sucks and i'm only beginning to understand how to do it properly.  The size is tough, and if it's a tall tank you'll struggle with light penetration.  You should chat with Todd from LYR at some point about that.
Like Bill said, you can always use a water heater to heat the tank if you have a sufficient amount of water.  
Have you considered using a sump instead of an external pump and what not? That way you can have a large volume of water, can heat it in the sump, and get a nice waterfall working. Of course, that would require drilling a couple holes in the back.  
Misting units are awesome, you can get a fairly cheap Mist King that would cover this whole tank. I however am super cheap and still choose to mist by hand.  

As a recommendation for a great species for a tank like this, consider a _Amereega / Epipedobates_ species.   They're super colorful and super loud!  

Good luck!
~Alex

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## pogigod

*Dendrobates Leucomelas*, *Dendrobates Auratus*, and *Dendrobates Azures* are the ones that interest me the most.... The waterfall I still dont know what im doing yet, im going to look around at different filter types, tho just browsing undergravel filters and that might be a good idea for the waterfall.... I'm getting a simular misting system that will cover the whole tank, and thinking about doing something fancy like an out of the tank fogger that will have fog comming out of a skull in the a higher part of the tank and have it misting out of the mouth or something....

you intrigued me with small gecko's and would like to do some research into that, but i think they would require a bigger food source, and that food source might stress out the frogs.

also keep in mind all the products im linking is just me googling the type i want and linking so you guys can see the idea, not saying im buying that brand

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## bill

confused here....i never recommended aquarium gravel. and i DID recommend using a canister??

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## pogigod

i said, aquarium gravel before, instead of the clay balls, but i think a false bottem will be better now

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## Alex Shepack

Sorry about that Bill, I was piecing things together in my head that didn't actually happen.  

I've always wondered about in tank pumps, which is why i've been thinking about canister filters.  I've had a couple in tank pumps that eventually died, and due to my poor planning, I was unable to remove or fix them without destroying the tank.  If I had planned ahead I could have made them accessible and this wouldn't have been a problem.  Like I said though, definitely differing to you (Bill) for all of that stuff.  

And like pogigod said, I was responding to his aquarium gravel question.  

~Alex

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## pogigod

yea, thats my only concern, that if that filter goes out, im SOL

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## bill

my apologies Alex, i sometimes forget that i need to read between the lines so to speak. the typed word never comes out like the spoken. all but 1 of my pumps are accessible. i am a firm believer in plan, plan, plan. i always think worst case scenarios, and plan ahead. no, i'm not a doomsdayer....lol i like to build in hidden removable access panels and maintenance tunnels. i even prefer submersible filters filled with much bio material, so maintenance is cut down. 

if you ever see my posts in other build logs, i always say take you time, no need to rush. i believe this. the more time spent planning, pays off in the long run. 

oh, and Alex, i blame your spellcheck for not differentiating between differ and defer....LOL

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## pogigod

any comments on those 3 types that i pointed out that im interested in?

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## bill

I'm a mantella and tree frog guy. Alex, i am sure, can give you better recommendations on the frogs themselves. Although i must  say, i am a huge fan of leucomelas  :Smile:

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## Lynn

> *Dendrobates Leucomelas*, *Dendrobates Auratus*, and *Dendrobates Azures* are the ones that interest me the most.... The waterfall I still dont know what im doing yet, im going to look around at different filter types, tho just browsing undergravel filters and that might be a good idea for the waterfall.... I'm getting a simular misting system that will cover the whole tank, and thinking about doing something fancy like an out of the tank fogger that will have fog comming out of a skull in the a higher part of the tank and have it misting out of the mouth or something....
> 
> you intrigued me with small gecko's and would like to do some research into that, but i think they would require a bigger food source, and that food source might stress out the frogs.
> 
> also keep in mind all the products im linking is just me googling the type i want and linking so you guys can see the idea, not saying im buying that brand


I have both,  leucomelas, and auratus ...sorry... I can not imagine them sharing a tank.  ie The auratus are so shy, so private.  Where as the leucs love to climb,will sleep in higher portions of the enclosure and will hunt their food in a wide open areas of the enclosure. It's my impression/opinion  the auratus would be so easily stressed by their presence.   :Frown:  Their behavior is so different from the leucs. The leucs are never hiding and the auratus are hardly ever visible. I'm blessed by their visit in the open. 

The leucs are quick , curious  and fearless.
The auratus have slower more purposeful plans about where they are headed and will jump out of sight in a second.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
Lynn

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## pogigod

what goes well with the leucs?

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## bill

A nice chablis, maybe a white merlot? Lol

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## pogigod

are leucs that intimidating for others?

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## pogigod

is there any where to research what goes well with others?

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## Lynn

> are leucs that intimidating for others?


That's a great question?
I don't know if they actually will intimidate other darts?

My observation of them is that they are like a 24/7 frog movie !  :Big Grin:

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## Lynn

see reply #3 and 13

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## bill

> is there any where to research what goes well with others?


while i don't like directing people to other forums. this thread is an extremely informative look at mixing. a bit of background. the author, Ed, is the big man of the herp dept at the Philadelphia Zoo. he is also one of the leading guys in the country when it comes to darts. i found this fascinating. you may as well http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beg...-exhibits.html

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## bill

> are leucs that intimidating for others?


if i may, i wouldn't say they are "intimidating". but let's say you have a very timid dog, and you were to toss a wild toddler in the mix, it would stress the dog out to the point where it may hide and you will never see it as long as the rambunctious toddler is about. Lynn, would you say that is a fair analogy?

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