# Frogs & Toads > Fire Belly Toads (Bombina) >  new to fire bellied toads

## alane

but they are pretty little things so i 'jumped right in' with a 30 gallon tank.  chose a water design with floating platforms, fake plants and an external filter.

the local pet store had a group of six, so I got them all.

i'm sure to add more land to the tank in the future, but the frogs appear to have enough space to spread out, soak if they want to with more to spare.

very cute.  first thing they all did when they hit my tank is to explore, then poo.  three even ate immediately.

i can tell three of them from the rest easily so far.  the others...may have to be called the triplets.

i've seen them amplexing, but i've heard not as much as a peep.  totally silent so far.

today was their first real feeding session after they settled in for a day.  between six frogs, twelve crickets were eaten at least, I saw ten of them go down, but i was otherwise busy getting and dusting crickets to see them all get eaten.

i have no real basking area, and will probably add a higher, warmer, drier spot for them next.

i've seen them soak on the ramp, hang out in a pile or individually.  some even seem to come up to see me closer when i sit down next to the tank and watch them.

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## alane

just caught two of them amplexusing and swimming in the deep water.  not for very long.

there's seven inches of water in this tank and the pair went all the way down.  long enough for me to wonder if little froggies drown doing this.

i guess i'll have to watch for eggs.

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## Jason

This could be the males just at it but unless the females are fat and full of eggs, nothing will really result from it. 

A lot of frogs can hold hold their breath under water for some time. Some even hibernate under the water, so this should be fine. My males regularly take the females under the water when breeding.

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## alane

Well, the grabee was larger, but not fat like you see in youtube videos.  they are all quite animated, these frogs.  i want to feed them an earthworm and see what happens.

I have not seen any fighting like you see on youtube.  This group seems pretty copacetic together.

I guess i'll see how they adapt to their environment in the coming month.  It's fascinating to watch.

When they are hungry...and you drop a cricket into the enclosure...and six frogs all perk up and go hunting....very very cool.  Some crickets last about 300 milliseconds from when they hit the floor.

There is one with sort of odd looking eyes compared to the rest.  I was wondering if it was blind.  Then I saw it jump through the air and catch a cricket.  lol.  they are all very perceptive.

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## Jason

They are one of the greediest frogs, never had issues with them refusing food as with some other frogs! 

I seen a yellow-bellied toad with some sort of eye problem in a reputable zoo before, it could maybe be a defect but it could be an infection which could lead to blindness. You might be able to lookup online how to cure that, if it is anything

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## alane

> They are one of the greediest frogs, never had issues with them refusing food as with some other frogs! 
> 
> I seen a yellow-bellied toad with some sort of eye problem in a reputable zoo before, it could maybe be a defect but it could be an infection which could lead to blindness. You might be able to lookup online how to cure that, if it is anything



The eyes looks clear.  The iris looks a little lighter than the rest, the pupils look smaller, even constricted.   But when the little frog spots something a third of the tank away and makes an accurate strike, I am convinced it can see okay.  Large, active hungry frog.
I will call him Psycho Shockeye.

No kidding about the food. Last night I dumped five crickets in and they were ALL GONE before I could sit down and watch.  If a cricket gets into the plants, the frogs can easily see the bugs shadow.  Drives them nuts.  They even go after drowning crickets.  I do not have to clean many drowned crickets out of this watery cage.

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## alane

When I got them, a few days ago, the skin on my right hand's thumb and index finger dried out and disintegrated.  Cracked and bled.  As if I had been to the desert and had been handing sandstone for weeks.  I did not touch these suckers; I minimized what I touched.

Then it occurred to me.  When I got them, they came from the store in 3 containers.

I wanted to reuse those containers.

So I washed them out.

With my right hand instead of a washcloth or anything.  Just water and my hand.  Rinse off whatever is in those containers.

waitaminit...

Huge mistake.  Apparently, I may have gotten a boatload of frog poison and it actually affected my skin.  I don't know for sure.  But I think trying to rinse out containers of a mildly poisonous frog with my bare hands was a terribly stupid mistake.


Their metabolism is so fast, it's as if they poop out last night's cricket in the morning.

Fun to watch and learn.

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## alane

Photo of my new setup:



40 gallon tank with about 12 gallons of water in it.  30" by 12", 18" tall.
Two floating platforms, one small size and one medium size.  An array of artificial plants.  Air bubbler and external filter keeps the water quite clean.
Six mosquito fish in the water.

I want to add a little more high ground, so I think i'll add one of those waterfalls.


And three of its inhabitants:







The artificial fern is touching the water return such that it gets a slow trickle and creates a bunch of slow drips.  The frogs love to hang out under a drip.

One of them appears to be begging right now, so i better get smoe crickets.

I let them eat as much as they wanted last night "at one sitting".  Wow.

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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## Froggie85

Jason I have been trying to message you but your inbox is to full and can accept new messages  :Smile:

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jasonm96

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## Froggie85

Like your set up . How is it so moist in there where is all the condensation coming from ? This is my tank set up 

adult image

photo hosting

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## Froggie85

OH MY GOSH I have no idea why one of my photo uploads say adult image that is not what I used I used the same place for the other one that says photo hosting. Sorry about that I don't know where that came from

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## alane

I'm unsure why so much condensation.
My water temperature (74F) is above my room air temperature and there's not much ventilation.  I'm also sort of over-oxygenating and over-filtering the water.  And the artificial fern is serving as a big evaporation surface area.
I figure the frogs like it that way and I should just squeegee it down when i want photos.
or maybe some folks have some suggestions as to how to reduce condensation.

[edit] i 'cracked' the hood and offset it so that there's a little 1/8" gap now.  The condensation is going away it seems.  Or it's an atmospheric thing that comes and goes; time will tell.

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## Froggie85

I would actually like to have a little bit of condensation .. I don't have any I bought an aquairium heater to warm up the water some and its only went up 1 degree by tank is reading at 71 but I am super afraid to turn it up more cause I dont want to cook them .. I also but a regular house bulb thats 40 watts thats says it only uses 29 watts for basking when I turn it on in the morning with there UVB light they seem more active , but they dont hunt or eat much still so its a little frustrating one frog gets about 2 or 3 which ismy oldest frogs my little ones seem to only get one and then the rest drown in the water I hate it but idk what else to do to fix live and learn I guess ..

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## alane

Overnight, i'd say that cracking the lid by just a little bit got rid of 2/3rds of my condensation.  It's still plenty moist but now I can take clearer photos.

71F is pretty far below the 'never exceed temperature' for this frog.  I've heard it's range is 68F to 78F and that they don't really want a top-warmed basking spot.  They want a 'rivers edge'.  Wikipedia says that the oriental is found as high as 3000m.

I use Repashy Calcium Plus which allegedly gets me out of any sort of UVB requirement.  Cold white LED lighting.

I got sang to last night by at least two of them, so I guess they are getting happier every day with the new enclosure.  Bark bark bark.

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## Froggie85

I just started using Repashy calcium plus yesterday .. Because of a man names Jason up above. my pet store is stupid and gave me the wrong kind so they have onlybeen getting calcium and no vitamins . but yesterday they at least got one with the supplement . mine dont go all crazy for them so by the time they eat one its fell in the water and washed most the supplement of which annoys me to the fullest.. Today is tank cleaning day and I will move the bar up a little more on my thermometer to see if I can get it to 75 thats where I myself would like it to be .. and yes mine bark all the time doesnt matter them temp they go back and forth with each other . Then one will hop on one and they will make that other noise like get off me its so fun to hear!

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## Froggie85

THIS IS MY 4 YEAR OLD 

upload an image

AND THIS IS MY TWO YOUNGER ONES THAT ARE SMALLER ONE OF THESE GUYS I NEVER SEE EAT.

upload pic

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## alane

today, i cleaned up the bottom of the tank and i picked up four tiny little stones that were the shape and size of a frog poo, but were rocks.  Those didn't come from me.  Those came from the store.  they have little rocks in their media.

that gives me an idea of how long it takes for stuff to go through their system.  although they are constantly eating and pooing, those rocks took 48-72 hours to pass.

i hope they feel better now.  i would hate to have to **** a boulder, myself.

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## Jason

Oriental fire-bellied toads will bask at temps as high as 85F. A lot of keepers and breeders believe a basking spot is essential, but many have been kept without so long as daytime temps are at least 72F. Any cooler than that for too long will probably impair digestion unless a basking spot if provided. However, night time lows of 65F are fine and cooler temps in winter along with reduced feeding.

Calcium plus does have vitamin D3 in it, but whether dietary D3 is enough alone depends on the species. Since fire-bellied toads are cathermal, bask and mainly insectivores, they probably would use sun for most of the vit D needs or at least be exposed to UVB. If we look at another frog, such as a pacman frog, it is entirely nocturnal, burrows most of the time and feeds mainly on frogs, but also on whatever passes. This frog would most likely get its vit D3 from the diet as whole vertebrate prey contain this vitamin, but insects don't and so would do better with dietary D3 rather than UVB.

Here's a recent study on Oriental fire-bellied toads, one of the few on UVB with amphibians. I can't find the full text for free access anymore, but you can see the summary. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...+inconvenience.

This is also a good article to read

http://www.jzar.org/jzar/article/view/150/89

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## alane

I have an old "eprom eraser". Basically a bare 4W germicidal bulb.  One of those blue-glowing UVB mercury fluorescent lights.

Do you have any idea what sort of intensity the frogs need?  4W is one of the smaller bulbs.  is this something i could use maybe by affixing this tube to my hood?  this is the sort of light you aren't really supposed to look at; It's 254nm uv.  i worry it would erase them or smoething.  But maybe using this thing would get me out of buying a light for my frogs.

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## Jason

Arcadia has some guidelines http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...belly-toad.jpg

Keep in mind these recommendations are when the tube is used inside the tank with a reflector, a tube over mesh loses a lot of potentency, so you go from a 2% minimum inside the tank to a 5% outside and so on, depending on the distance from the light and frogs

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## Froggie85

Wow that is stinky .. Ya I am not sure what is wrong with one of my FBTS he started getting fat but would still eat and his color was great he would move around then he had these spasm just for a few hours straight and then he was better but still acts drunk and moves his head side to side looking up in the air.. I got him from someone I have no idea how they had the tank set up for him. but he seems to do fine but thats what I am wondering if he has swallowed something and cant pass it idk.. I have big pebble rocks in there as big as there head and bigger so I know it couldnt come from me . My husband told me maybe hes just old and I just laughed lol

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## Froggie85

Trying to send you pictures but your box is to full lol Jason.. Also my frog is spasin again I dont get it and it wasent until I picked him up to put him in the other tank to clean and back into there home  :Frown:  other two are fine

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## Jason

Send me a video of its spamming? Your husband could be right in that it's maybe just old, but since the pet shop gave you the wrong supplements it could also be because of that. It might improve after a few weeks of using Calcium Plus, but if it's far gone it may never be 100% again

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## privet01

> Do you have any idea what sort of intensity the frogs need?  4W is one of the smaller bulbs.


Here is another article that might help you......

http://www.amphibianark.org/pdf/Baines_etal_2016_How_much_UV-B.pdf

There are quite a few good articles under the "Husbandry Documents" tab here http://www.amphibianark.org

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jasonm96

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## alane

Good lord.  Very technical articles.  People have studied this stuff a lot.

For me, I guess it means I should replace my LED hood with a Fluorescent hood so that I have access to an array of proper lighting.

I added more 'land' to my tank, both high and low.  The frogs love the low spots only.  These frogs want to stay close to the water.  They'll go to the higher spots to stalk a cricket.

Since my tank and filter are new, it's gonna cycle like an aquarium.  It's tests for a small amount of ammonia now, so I add to the mix some goo from my outdoor pond filter, which has been stable for years.  The frogs left the water IMMEDIATELY when it got muddy and went back in only after it was clear for a while.  I hope it isn't a mistake to cycle water with frogs, but that what I got.

Two of my males are getting real dark.  I'm sure that three of the six are males based on calling.  The rest, not sure.  Most make the 'release' sound, but one does not and just struggles.  It's not clear to me if an unreceptive female makes a release sound or not.  The internet is full of conflicting information.

They like to 'squish'.  I try to avoid any traps in the aquarium that might pin a frog.  But I find that these fellows now and then want to cram themselves in between a pair of rocks. When they swim around, if they are given a choice between open water and squishing through something, they always squish through.  So I set a rock close to the glass wall of the aquarium and when they want to cram themselves into a crevice, I can see it.  They don't seem to want a shelter as much as fully body contact with rocks.  Probably to prevent another frog from getting on their back.

I've watched one 'periodically spasm' and when I looked closely in the water, I could see that it was shedding.

Antics.  Now I have to figure out the best way to get videos of them; they are very small subjects.

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## Froggie85

Hmm I might need to pay more attention that is so strange.. shedding... when he first started doing his weird spasms I was worried about him or her its really fat and over a few weeks got that way but it was a pig for the most part when it came to feeding now he or she will eat two is all . but back to spasms the other day when I cleaned its tank and put them back in the tank he/ she was going around and around in circles for a few seconds then would stop .. now this is new to me I looked over and at that time he was on a rock and was makeing that gaging shedding face but did it twice and then kept twitching and going around in circles. Now if he or she is in the water it does it quite often but if its in a corner behind a plant like its hiding it just sits there and does nothing.. Right now he is in the water close to a rock holding onto a plant and sitting there just fine .. at the mean time one of my other toads keeps barking and sneaking to it real close and hops on it and the one with issues has a problem and makes this bird noise and the other one gets off after a second but comes back to do it some more. This is my first time having Fire bellies and I guess like jason said trial and error and live and as you learn ..Hopefully I can figure it out soon though cause its driving me insane !

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## alane

Well, i'm done with small crickets for sure.  These adult FBTs appear to be able to take down the largest of crickets.  It'll be a double swallow, one for the body and another to get the legs out of the mouth.

I've noticed that these frogs have a behavior where they will drown their larger prey.  Much of the time if they snap up food this large, they will sink to the bottom of the tank and sit there for a bit.  Then they chow down.  I didn't see that behavior with a cricket that they could down in one gulp.

Much easier to deal with smaller amounts of large crickets than feeding them scads of small ones.  Just two crickets makes 'em go "catatonic" as in "I cannot eat another cricket, I am stuffed.  Well maybe in an hour, come back later."  When they stop propping themselves up with their front legs, they are *full*.

I've also noticed that an old aquarium test kit is NOT to be used.  This old aquarium test kit is over 10 years old and the nitrite tests no longer work.
A new test kit shows the reality, these frogs have a high bio load.  The biofilters are working but regular water changes appear to be required at a fairly high frequency if I want super clean water.
It is time to add a real plant; I have enough nitrates.

It's awesome to watch one of these suckers eat a large cricket.  Glarbarblglahbbhbllglarb!  *swallow*  Burp!

And when they are hungry, they are competitive.  Last night, the first cricket dropped into the tank instantly caused three frogs to start piling on each other, whereas the other three instantly started stalking their prey.  It's a real coin toss who's going to actually win and eat it.

I've had crickets ejected from the top of the tank because of an enthusiastic jumping frog.  Keep that lid closed!

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## alane

The ammonia spike in my newly started frog tank is over!  So there is hope that the biofilters will eventually make this water Very Very Clean even with six well fed frogs in just 11 gallons.
In the nitrite spike now.
Added a sprig of Elodea as my first live plant.
I had to remove one of their favorite perches; the petrified wood 'rock' that I used turned out to be alkaline and was making my water rather basic.

Also, I am still picking out a rock now and then from the tank.  This is three weeks after I got them from the store.  These rocks all came from the media that the frogs were sitting in at the store.  The most recent pebble was rather sharp.  SIX rocks or so for six frogs.  Most of them came out in the first week, some took longer!

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## privet01

I have not seen it discussed much, but it does seem to me that the type of gravel and other materials you use in your viv that come in contact with water will affect it's pH if you aren't paying attention.  Typically I'd expect many limestone types to drive it toward alkaline.  Some worse than others.  Though any rotting substrate or vegetation that is in contact with the water should drive the pH toward acidity.

Several things to consider on the big crickets....  and this is just opinion and observations I've made during the six years I've been raising my own crickets.  So if any one has a degree in entomology and cares to enlighten me......

As crickets reach full size their exoskeleton get very hard and sharp edged.  Maybe this is why they have to hold it submerged to soften it up.  But it might in the long run be doing the FBT's harm.  Also it seems to me that at this stage of the crickets life they don't eat as much.  So they may not be as nutritious as they are not fully gut loaded.

Of course what you are calling a big cricket might be earlier in their life cycle than what I'm describing.

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## alane

It looks like my tank has cycled as of this morning.  Undetectable nitrites.  Almost undetectable <0.25ppm ammonia.  20-30ppm nitrates.  7.8pH.  Elodea plant growing like stink.

I'm happy to say that my fbt's have rather good water to swim in.

All six mosquito fish survived the process.

I'll have to keep an eye on it, as the bioload of six fire belly toads is pretty big and I feel i'm lucky to have gotten this to work so far.  I put rather a lot of biofilter into this tank, using an oversized canister filter, wrapping the intake in filter media and also lining some of the tank with filter media.  This appears to provide enough substrate to deal with the pollution.  Yet there's only 11 gallons of water.  So if something heads south, water quality will suffer very very quickly.  And lots of vitamin powder ends up going into this tank, so it seems nutrient rich and primed for some sort of unwanted growth.

The Elodea from PetSmart came with two other organisms:  Sort sort of snail, which I have been killing when I see it.  Some sort of nematode, which will cluster around any sort of rotting cricket that I miss.  The mosquito fish gorge themselves on these tiny worms.

I got to see what happens in the rare case that two frogs have grabbed the same cricket:
First, a frog strikes at a large cricket and gets a hold of it, but half of the cricket is sticking out.  Usually at this point, froggy will jump away and swallow the cricket.
But...another frog gets a good hold of the rest of the cricket before that can happen.
Then, immediately, all hell breaks loose.  Both frogs start flailing, jumping, spinning, turning, trying to wrestle the cricket out of the other's mouth.  About ten seconds of violence.  The winner has one super-smashed twisted and wrecked cricket it gets to eat.  The loser is angry at the winner and abuses the victor for a bit before moving on.

I guess now I need to start finding local sources of more interesting food items for them.

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## alane

It's nightcrawlers for dinner tonight.  Also, I found what looks like an egg mass.  Very tiny.  (This is a very good camera and lens to blow up such a small thing to such a large picture)  I believe that it's from the mosquito fish.

These could also be snail eggs.  The Elodea I bought from the store apparently had snails, i've killed four so far.  I do not see any snails in my tank, but if one has somehow hidden and laid eggs, then I suppose these could be snail eggs.



I very carefully snipped off that leaf and now it's inside of a test tube inside of my aquarium.  I guess i'll see what it is if they hatch.

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## alane

Those were snail eggs.  I found four egg sacs and found the snail, removed it all.

This happened last night...  real frog eggs:



So I guess they are happy enough in their environment.

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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## privet01

> Those were snail eggs.  I found four egg sacs and found the snail, removed it all.


Have you not watched Godzilla and other monster movies?  There is always an egg remaining! <<grin>> :Stick Out Tongue: 

So what are your plans if they produce tad's?  Let nature determine what happens or separate them and try to raise them?  I ask because I keep having this question with myself.  I sometimes want to get more FBT's, but I don't want to deal with unplanned parenthood.  Certainly I can't keep an ever increasing population and having to destroy them myself is not something I want to do.  If the adult FBT's naturally eliminate the tad's by eating them, then I could live with that.

p.p.s
Just saw your explanation in the other topics... so no need to re-hash that unless you or others have something to add.

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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## alane

The center opaque portion of the eggs are no longer spherical.  Many are becoming 'crescent' shaped or rather "croissant" shaped.  One or two look very odd, I suppose some may not 'work' or its just my viewing angle.  But they sure are changing.  No movement yet.It's sort of out of my control:  Some of these frogs are going to hatch and grow in my main environment with the adults.  Some will be isolated and i'll be able to observe and deal with them separately.  I expect i'll learn a lot in the coming weeks.

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## alane

Well, now I feel awful, as i've left the hood of my aquarium open and I discovered way too late that one of my frogs jumped out.

I'll leave the aquarium hood open when i'm around the house, letting the condensation inside the tank evaporate so I can take better photos.  I do it only for a few hours.

I observed them jump and felt that there was no way they could make such a huge leap.

I was wrong.  The frog count came up short the other day.  I know that he must have gotten out a full two days before I discovered it.  Then it took me 24 hours to find the dried up body behind some furniture.  I tried to rehydrate, but to no avail.

I feel just terrible, that was my fault entirely.  The one that escaped was the male with the weird eyeball.

On the other hand, I have about 80 tadpoles growing and thriving.  So I guess I could consider growing a few to maturity to keep.

Ugh.

That was my alpha frog, who would grab anyone, any time and make a racket.   My tank is substantially quieter without him.

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## privet01

IMO of course.  But FBT's don't really need a humid environment.   Plus, those of us that have their tank mostly water are going to enjoy a higher humidity at the bottom of the viv anyway.   If you have plants that need a high humidity I can understand that.

So why not just use a screen?

Let us know if it turns up.  some do others don't.

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## alane

My fbt tank has been going for about two months.  The water pump slowed last night and I traced the issue down to the intake filter.  I originally wrapped the intake with extra filter material to slow the water flow and make my tank friendlier for very small critters.  But over time that filter clogs up.
The filters inside of the pump itself are all fine.

I had to re-wrap the intake with new filter material.  I left the old one in the tank for now because all of the critters love to eat that goo, and it's good for the water too.

The tank is getting a lot of snails.  I believe I will add an assassin snail.

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## Adam Lane

The forum destroyed my "alane" account, so i've established another.

They are emerging.  Some are emerging in a nursery, some in the main adult tank.  The most advanced one has just lost it's tail, but it's not hungry yet.  I expect very soon it will be.

I'll try to post more pics and movies tonight.

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