# General Topics > Plants, Plant Care & Plant Identification >  Plants for WTF Enclosure

## Frogs1

Hi, 

I'm thinking about putting some real plants in with my Whites Tree Frog tank, so far I have only used fake plants. The tank is 24W x 24L x 36H (Inches) and houses 4 frogs at the moment. I would still like to have fake plants in there like the suction cup vines and 1 other plant I have, but add in some fake plants to make it look nicer and hopefully mask the bad smell that sometimes comes out of the tank. I was wondering what plants would be good for whites tree frogs and this size thank, as well as what substrate I should use, as I don't use any at the moment, just glass. Thanks!

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## elly

Low-growing plants that don't mind being trampled and very sturdy plants are probably the best. I have snake plant and lucky bamboo in mine, though I know I will have to prune the bamboo. Many people also have bromeliads and if the frogs are small enough (or the bromeliads are big enough) frogs like hiding in them. As far as substrate I like Josh Frog's ABG mix. It came layered in the bags so I could make sure the big chunks that could hurt a frog if ingested were kept at the bottom. Are you doing a drainage layer or false bottom below the substrate?

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## Frogs1

> Low-growing plants that don't mind being trampled and very sturdy plants are probably the best. I have snake plant and lucky bamboo in mine, though I know I will have to prune the bamboo. Many people also have bromeliads and if the frogs are small enough (or the bromeliads are big enough) frogs like hiding in them. As far as substrate I like Josh Frog's ABG mix. It came layered in the bags so I could make sure the big chunks that could hurt a frog if ingested were kept at the bottom. Are you doing a drainage layer or false bottom below the substrate?



Thanks, I'll look into those plants. I'm not to sure yet about a drainage layer of false bottom, I only really just started thinking about it and not to sure what ethier is or does. What does both of these do and which would be easier to maintain or easier to clean?

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## Frogs1

Also here is a pic of my tank woudl fake reall plants look good it in it? It's tall compared to most tanks, 3ft tall. Can you post a pic of your tank so I can see how those plants look together in an enclosure?

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## elly

Drainage layers are supposed to take the excess water from when you water your plants so that the dirt doesn't sit in water all the time and get rotten. For a drainage layer you can use about two inches of rocks (which will be heavy) or stuff you get from gardening stores called LECA (Light Expanded Clay Aggregate). There's instructions on this and false bottoms in the White's Tree Frog caresheet in the Tree Frogs section of the forum. This all sounded ridiculously complicated to me, but if a planted tank's set up well it shouldn't have to be cleaned for a long time (besides the occasional removal of poop).

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## elly

Your tank looks well set up. Lots of places to hide. As far as mixing plants, I've seen tanks with both fake and real plants that looked good. But your own opinion of your tank is what matters, right? Three feet is a good size for Whites. I wish I could find one that tall. Here's a link to a thread where I posted my tank. Keep in mind I'd just planted it and I want to separate the bamboo and snake plant so they're not so close together. I didn't mention the pothos and striped transcendentia/ wandering jew (under the branch). Those are pretty tough plants and it's easy to grow replacements from cuttings. I've also added some low-growing peacock fern since I took the picture. The tank looks a lot better now.

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## elly

Also if your real plants start small you might need to include your fake ones at least until the real ones get big enough. I'm using fake vines to cover part of the sides

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## Frogs1

So with the drainage, it would go rocks on the bottom aND then the substrate on top? The 3ft tank is good, I just thought it would be hard to get plants to grow tall enough to look good in it.  I would still keep the fake plants in there, not all though. The vines on the glass and one of the ground one. AlsI looking at your tank, I can't seem to see the bamboo, I'm not to sure what it looks like, what siDE of the tank is it on?

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## Lija

Hi!

are you doing anything for background? If so you can plant pothos in there, they are sturdy and will hang down nicely and take over the space very fast too  :Smile:  this will eliminate a need of silk plants with suction cups. You may also look into something bigger for them to perch on. Alternatively you can get something like magnitural pots and suspend these high up with pothos hanging down.

snake plants are fine as well, anything that is cheap to replace will do, they will tramp most of the plants anyway.

bottom - false bottom or any other ways of drainage - leca, hydroballs, rocks, then a layer that will separate soil from that layer -  most people use window screen mesh for that, they you put proper soil ( ABG mix or similar). ABG mix may not be available where you live just like here in Canada, so I mix stuff to get something similar.

you will need lots of isopods and springtails to deal with the amount of waste these guys make lol also you need to figure out how to take out excess water of drainage layer. And you will still need to spot clean as soon as you see it.

Check the the sticky thread about the viv construction..... Having said that do you really want a naturalistic viv for whites? Like full on one?

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## elly

Yeah, rocks/ hydroballs/ LECA on bottom, then garden mesh to keep dirt from falling down there, then substrate. Lucky bamboo and snake plant can grow pretty tall, it just takes time. I know some people grow ornamental fig too and that can get tall and it's sturdy. Here's a thread about a list of frog safe plants if it helps: http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...exception.html In my tank photo, the bamboo shoot is hiding behind the snake plant (It's the tallest one with leaves behind the dark green spiky plant.)

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## elly

> Check the the sticky thread about the viv construction..... Having said that do you really want a naturalistic viv for whites? Like full on one?


 <- What Lija said. It cost me more to put together a naturalistic terrarium, but I didn't want to keep replacing the substrate so frequently so I did the drainage layer, springtails and isopods thing. If you want the look of live plants but not a planted vivarium, maybe you could use (very sturdy and secure) flowerpots to hold them. Just make sure that the dirt doesn't have chemical fertilizer or anything. (and maybe get someone else's opinion about the flowerpots idea because I'm not entirely sure about it.)

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## Frogs1

I'll look into the pothos idea, I've got some fish tank like background on the outside of the tank that you just spray water and stick on to make it look nicer. Is a naturalistic Viv for whites hard? Im happy to put the time into setting iT up and maintaing it, but is it harder then what I probably think?

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## elly

It's not too difficult to do. Drainage layer, garden mesh, springtail culture (optional), soil, plants and you're done. If you want to make cleanup easier you can cut a hole in the mesh and stick a pvc pipe down into the drainage layer so you can siphon some water off if the drainage layer gets full. Or you can experiment with false bottoms. That looks a bit complicated to me but the people who have done it say it's not that hard. *Edit*: Okay, getting ABG soil might be harder in Australia. You could try looking up how to mix it yourself, or try plantation soil with a little of the fertilizer they sell for aquatic plants in fish tanks. Something that is fish-safe.

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## Frogs1

Ok thanKS,  how much would it ruffley cost to setup?

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## elly

It really depends on what you can get, I don't know what's available in Australia. I suggest making a list of what you need and then looking at garden shops both in your area and online. As far as plants, it helps if you can find friends with houseplants and ask if you can take cuttings  :Stick Out Tongue: . If you buy from a nursery, wash the plants thoroughly to remove any pesticide, wash the dirt off the roots and give them a quick dip in 10% bleach 90% water mixture. (You should also do this with cuttings.) Rinse them off again. Oh, and note it's much better to get cheap plants since the white's might dig them up or something. Once my pothos and transcendentia grow large enough I'm going to take cuttings of them for backup plants. Just take off a piece with leaves and little rootlets on it and stick it in a glass of water and leave it. Chances are it will grow. Snake plant and lucky bamboo can be divided at the base when they start to send off shoots.

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## Frogs1

I think I can get most of those plants listed above from the local nussary, and I will look into the substrate more. Thanks

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## Lija

No, you can't use plantation soil, nothing will grow in there.
there are lots of AbG mix recipes on net, you just look what works with what is available.

and yes properly set up naturalistic tank is pricey, there are ways to cut the corners though. The proper light fixture may be expensive. If I were you I'd put a cost estimation together and see if it's doable.

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## Frogs1

Ok thanks, I will when I get home. I also have noticed a few tanks that have a different background that looks like rock inside the tank that the frogs can sit on. Do you recommend this?

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## elly

You mean Styrofoam backgrounds like on the Exo-Terra tanks? Those should be fine.

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## Frogs1

They don't look Styrofoam, maybe they are. But the frogs can sit on them like a cave/cliff ledge.

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## Lija

Magnitural ledges?

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## Frogs1

> Magnitural ledges?


I don't think so, it was the whole back. Maybey it was just Styrofoam. What do you guys use as your backing? Just glass or?

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## elly

I have a polystyrene background that came with the tank.

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## Frogs1

Do the frogs sit on it or clim on it? Or do they find it hard to cling onto? Also I I've looked, I can't find one that'a 3ft high. I can get two 2ft ones and cut a ft off. But it's a little expensive.

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## Lija

Great stuff background with added whatever you want, wood to perch on or cork, you can make it anyway you like. 

Check this http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...questions.html

and see more build threads for inspiration

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## elly

I don't know since I'm waiting for the frog to get a clean bill of health to put him in. I think he could climb it though, since he can climb glass. I don't know if he'd want to hang out on it. And as far as backgrounds, some people use a kind of spray foam called Greatstuff to make their own foam backgrounds. There's threads on doing that in the Viv build section.

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## Frogs1

Tomorrow I'm going to have a look at some plants and see how much it will cost. Just another thing, how would I clean the tank, like would I remove the plants and substrate and clean it or never clean it as it shouldn't really need cleaning? And thanks for the link to that post of the tanks, it's really helping. But there is no link under planting the plants heading, is it easy to plant plants? never done it before lol

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## Frogs1

I also see a few good looking vivs that have Holo logs and branches, would this be ones bought from a shop or just found in the bush?

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## elly

To clean the tank normally you'd just have to remove poop you see or wipe the glass down if it gets dirty. If it starts smelling bad (it shouldn't for a long time but it might) you can try siphoning out water from the drainage layer. Get a siphon hose, a turkey baster, or an aquarium gravel vacuum for that. It helps if you have a pvc pipe that goes down to the drainage layer so you don't have to move aside the substrate and mesh. You probably won't have to do a full extensive cleaning unless the frog gets sick or there's a huge overgrowth of mold (springtails should keep the mold down). As far as planting those plants, it's easy, just put them in roots down. You might want to mound up dirt a little around the base of the plant. Then water and let it soak in. You can test for dampness by putting a finger into the soil and when it's dry you need to water. The soil should be damp but not soggy.

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## elly

THe hollow logs I see at pet stores are usually cork bark. They should do fine. For branches, you want a hard wood that tolerates damp and doesn't have strong oils in it (like cypress or cedar or eucalyptus). They sell grapevine at pet stores, but that's NOT good for damp terrariums since it grows toxic mold. Manzanita (spelled wrong probably) and ghost wood are two good woods for aquariums. If you use bush sticks, be sure to sanitize them well, boiling and baking. There's a thread on that in the viv section. Deranged Chipmunk on the forum talked about using oak from the woods and he seems very experienced with vivariums so that's probably a good wood.  EDIT: I might be wrong about cypress and cedar being bad for frogs. I know the mulches often are, but that's because they're an impaction risk and they're sometimes treated with chemicals.

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## elly

Yep, Cedar is toxic at least.

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## Frogs1

Are those springtails you keep mentioning bugs?

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## elly

Yeah, really tiny white bugs that live off mildew.

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## Frogs1

And you want them in the tank?

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## elly

Yeah, they act like a clean-up crew for mold and they generally stay hidden in the dirt.

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## Frogs1

> Yeah, they act like a clean-up crew for mold and they generally stay hidden in the dirt.


Ok, so I put them in there, or do they just come with the substrate? Also will this be good for the substrate? ABG Mix (4 Quart/1 Gallon) - ABG Atlanta Botanical Gardens Mix | Josh's Frogs

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## Frogs1

The shipping cost to Australia is like $130, does anyone know where I can get something similar here?

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## Frogs1

I have heard that coconut fiber is used a bit, could that do the job?

Edit: I found a place near me that sells it, is it the right stuff though? Fauna Jungle Coconut shell Peat Fibre - Terrarium 100% Natural Substrate | Stefmar pet care

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## elly

I don't know if that would work for planting, maybe you could try ordinary organic soil with no vermiculite in it. Or a mix of that and ordinary soil. As far as springtails you might be able to find them in specialty pet shops. Places that have dart frogs might carry them.

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## Frogs1

Dart frogs are illegal to have as pets in Australia. I don't know any specialty pet shops in my area, so the micro funa in the substrate we have to put In, it doesn't just form by itself? I will look around for some more substrate.

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## elly

I don't know, you could get lucky and some springtails could just show up. Or you could find pillbugs in your yard. (I don't know if they carry parasites though.)

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## Frogs1

Would this mix of subsrate be like the ABG from josh's frogs? I found this mix on another post for a viv but the tank didn't house frogs.

2 Parts Potting mix peat moss http://www.bunnings.com.au/potting-m...31344_p3010202
2 Parts Cocofibre
1 Part pine back http://www.bunnings.com.au/mulch-pin...-4040_p3010176
1 Part Hort charcoal Soil Improver Brunnings 5l Hort Charcoal 30288 I/N 3016175 | Bunnings Warehouse

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## Frogs1

Would this mix of substrate be like the ABG from josh's frogs? I found this mix on another post for a viv but the tank didn't house frogs.

2 Parts Potting mix peat moss http://www.bunnings.com.au/potting-m...31344_p3010202
2 Parts Cocofibre
1 Part pine back http://www.bunnings.com.au/mulch-pin...-4040_p3010176
1 Part Hort charcoal http://www.bunnings.com.au/soil-impr...30288_p3016175

Also would this spray foam work and is it safe for the frogs? http://www.bunnings.com.au/filler-ex...-foam_p1211402

Thanks!

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## elly

That sounds like the recipe. As for the spray foam, I'm going to cautiously say yes, since it says it can be used outdoors but I'm not entirely sure. Maybe a new thread about the foam in the viv section would attract people who know about that kind of thing.

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## WhitesTreeFrog

what if iput an area with substrate and a live plant. does the rest of the cage need substrate? or do i even need substrate in the first plave? its a pain to take out and fill up.

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## elly

The substrate probably would spill out into other areas. I've seen people put a potted plant in a tank though. 

Substrate is generally supposed to make the tank easier to clean. So maybe not as long as you frequently cleaned the bottom of the tank so the frogs weren't sitting in pee. Paper towels can work as a substrate but they grow bacteria easily and need to be changed frequently.

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## WhitesTreeFrog

so as long as i clean out the bottom i dont need supstrate? ok thanks thats helpful

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## WhitesTreeFrog

i had an idea here

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## Bryce

While in theory you might not need substrate, some sort of substrate, even paper towels as elly mentioned make cleanup a lot easier. Without any kind of substrate a standard design would require cleaning almost every day to remove residue to prevent bacteria growth. I find your design very interesting, it would still require cleaning every day or every other day, to avoid buildup of fecal matter and urine residue, since this can allow bacteria to grow. 
Coco fiber can go 2-3 weeks before replacing.
(Also applies to peat moss, topsoil etc.)
Paper towels require switching each day, since they allow bacteria to grow rather fast, but are generally easily available and require no special purchases.
A planted tank with drainage layer or false bottom can go without switching for as long as a year. Maybe more.
This is why I like making full planted tanks with microfauna(springtails and oppose). They look great and require a low amount of maintenance, but they take a lot of time and effort to set up, Not to mention money and plants. I know it can be a pain to switch out substrates, but substrates are used for a number of reasons. I hate to say it, but I feel like you'd be putting in a lot of work for very little benefits. You'd have to build it, and clean it. I kinda feel like that's more work than the substrate.

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