# General Topics > Vivarium, Terrarium & Enclosure Discussion >  Vertical Conversion of  Zilla Critter Keeper  for tree frogs

## Lynn

This will house “Boggie Smalls” a 2 ½ year old female Agalychnis moreletii. 
When turned vertically , the dimensions will be 36 “ high X 18” wide X 17” deep
Started with this:
Zilla Critter Cages 40g Terrarium 36X18X17



Note: this enclosure is designed to be used horizontally. The lid slides on - over a track type rim.  Therefore, a commonly used conversion front cannot be used because of the way he rim is designed. 

A hole has been drilled in what will now be the top

Pics drill hole 

I have created ( made by the glass guy) a little cover with a slot  to pass the cords, mist tubing and temp/humidity probe  through.


I will be diverting the mist king tubing and mist with a double mist head. The ceiling of the tank has been created to suspend lots of pothos ( for climbing/ sleeping) and  to hang the mist king head. 

Two pieces of glass are attached to the front using silicone on the inside of the screen- leaving an area for ventilation about 4 ½ “ below the top.

The top piece of glass is about  4 ½ inches wide – to keep the mist spray in. 
Then the bottom piece of glass covers about 20” of the bottom of the screen.  
The edges of the glass have been sanded smooth to prevent injuries to “Boggie’s " very delicate girly skin.  :Smile: 
I have removed the ( factory) closure from the lid. I don’t like how it closes. Too noisy ! As a result this leaves a little ¼ opening on the right side. I am making a new closure from plastic trim and painting it black. 



Bottom left. The lid does not close tightly enough against the rim ---setting up a perfect place for the crickets to escape ! Solution: a 3” high piece of plexi to keep them IN  the feeding area. 


 


It will have a “froggy spa” like my other enclosure- which is a heated , filtered, cover area of water for  froggy soaking.




Can’t teach old frogs new tricks!  She has been soaking this way since I have had her!
Like my  other enclosure the water will be covered with a piece of plexi. The water pools over the top creating a shallow – clean- area for soaking. The water is heated  ( 76 degrees F) w/ a small aquarium heater  and filtered with a small  aquarium filter.



The feeding area will be in the front/bottom of the enclosure. 

I have decided to silicone my planters to the sides of the glass. So far so good. I think they will be easy to clean around. 



Plants are almost ready/need more planters!



I hope all the pics are in the right order !!!!

Updates coming soon !

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## NetworkLabs

Looks pretty cool!

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## Lynn

> Looks pretty cool!


Thanks!
I have a, very , long way to go.

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## NetworkLabs

Same here, expect I'm building from scratch. This means building the actual tank.

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## Lynn

Keeper of this vertical conversion.
Eventually !

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## Hydroshake

that sure is one spoiled frog.
what kind of filter are you using for the froggy spa?

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## velvety14u

looking great!!! cant wait to see it finished....

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## Lynn

> that sure is one spoiled frog.
> what kind of filter are you using for the froggy spa?


A little 10/15 Fluval. It's overkill, I know.
 But it's a sponge filter, so I would rather it be overkill than not enough- since they pee in the water everyday!

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## Lynn

> looking great!!! cant wait to see it finished....


I decided against the Amazons  :Frown: .
Some other time ?

I plan to find her some company when it is warm enough to ship frogs.
Actually, I probably could have had frogs shipped this week - it's 63 degrees F here on Long Island.
Who would have known!

I'm no hurry though! 
Thanks for looking 
Lynn

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## S13

NICE! this is exactly what I needed to know in order to do my vertical conversion. I have the same type of screen lid this one has, mine is a 20 gallon though.  Its more than likely the same brand, I dont know where to find that info out though.  Anyway, I might do mine a little different though leaving a little bit of screen at the "top" for ventilation and the rest plexiglass.  Thanks Lynn!

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## Autumn

It looks great so far Lynn! Nice work  :Smile: ! Makes me want to go and start working on mine right now lol  :Smile:

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## Lynn

> NICE! this is exactly what I needed to know in order to do my vertical conversion. I have the same type of screen lid this one has, mine is a 20 gallon though.  Its more than likely the same brand, I dont know where to find that info out though.  Anyway, I might do mine a little different though leaving a little bit of screen at the "top" for ventilation and the rest plexiglass.  Thanks Lynn!


Omar,
The reason I dropped the ventilation area about 4 1/2" is because the mist head is very close to the top. I don't want some of  the spray coning  out of the screen !  I am planning to point the mist towards the sides. I goes pretty far. The open vent area is 17" x 8 ish" . I'm actually a little concerned it is too large an area? BUT, the top is glass, I don't want any fried frogs.  :Frown:

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## S13

I see. That is awesome. Maybe I should incorporate a misting system in this one.  I want to take my time and build a bad *** viv, done right. Possibly want a White's next.  I'll definitely be doing my homework on here before executing anything.  Thanks again for this awesome write up.

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## Carlos

Good luck with your project and congrats on your nice frog!

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## Lynn

> Good luck with your project and congrats on your nice frog!


Hi Carlos,
Thanks for checking it out !

Actually, I have had this A. moreletii since she has been a little tiny tot ! ( Aug 2009)

It is time for her to have he own nice space.
I will be purchasing her some 'company' ( of her own kind) in the near future!

Lynn

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## S13

BTW, the name Boggie Smalls. How did that come about? I'm sure its got to with something with Notorious B.I.G. aka "Biggy Smalls"?  Either way, I absolutely love it.  :Big Grin:

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## Lynn

> BTW, the name Boggie Smalls. How did that come about? I'm sure its got to with something with Notorious B.I.G. aka "Biggy Smalls"?  Either way, I absolutely love it.



Ha!
Yes it did! Honestly, it was off the heels of a very funny conversation ( at the time)when we 
( myself, my husband and my son) named her?
No one has really ever noticed it before ! wink
The funniest thing is, this frog turned out to be a female.  Go figure !

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## S13

LOL. thats funny.  Cute name either way, I'm sure the "boggie" switch up doesn't make it so much of a gender specific name.

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## Lynn

I'm so jealous
This is a must watch ! Plus the music is great !
Since I have watched this --I have purchased glass paint. Just imagine what you could do?
I'm practicing !!!!!  We'll see  :Smile: 

The Fishtank - YouTube

Lynn

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## Autumn

> I'm so jealous
> This is a must watch ! Plus the music is great !
> Since I have watched this --I have purchased glass paint. Just imagine what you could do?
> I'm practicing !!!!!  We'll see 
> 
> The Fishtank - YouTube
> 
> Lynn


This is going to be great! I can't wait to see the outcome  :Smile: ! Thanks for sharing the video Lynn! What type of trees are you planning on painting?

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## Lynn

> This is going to be great! I can't wait to see the outcome ! Thanks for sharing the video Lynn! What type of trees are you planning on painting?



Hi Autumn.
I am planning on painting the trunks -only. Then attaching the the planters on the inside and using the plants ( cascading etc  ) to finish-off the "folige " part  on the inside.

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## Autumn

> Hi Autumn.
> I am planning on painting the trunks -only. Then attaching the the planters on the inside and using the plants ( cascading etc  ) to finish-off the "folige " part  on the inside.


Oooo, that should look really neat! I can't wait for the finished product  :Smile: !!

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## Doug

Looks freaking awesome Lynn!!  Where did you find those planters?

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## Lynn

> Looks freaking awesome Lynn!!  Where did you find those planters?


Thanks Doug !
I have them in my other enclosure as well. They're great !

Planter Ledges

Lynn

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## Lynn

I have started painting the back last night.
I is going to be time consuming. It has to be painted inside-out. It's hard.

I will post photos soon----IF I DON'T SCRAPE ALL IF IT OFF, first!

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## Lynn

glass of front screen /door- done



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

' reverse glass painting' hand painted background- SNEAK PEAK !
tree truck #1
first coat

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## Lynn

Hi All,
Sooooo, I am happy how things have gone thus far.
This is a pic of the 2 enclosures side-by side. 
The one on the R is the new one. 
I still have some work to do on the sliding screen/glass front, but not a problem.



I will continue to post along the way !
 -
Reverse glass painting is going very well !! 

Lynn

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## Lynn

Okay - so I am in a bit of a pickle!

Below are the retro-fitted parts to the front of my conversion ready to by assembled.
The thin pcs are aluminum. ( picture frame parts)



The pc on the L has to be glued to the plastic frame of the viv. (aluminium to plastic)
The pc on the R as to be glued to the aluminium frame ( in the pic) --(aluminium to aluminium )

The hole thing slides back an forth to open the viv.

Any glue or bonding ideas?

The frogs will be able to be near to where I am will gluing or bonding!

I'm wondering if I could simply use silicone?

Lynn

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## Will

Wow, I am not sure how I missed this post when you started it.  That conversion is looking great.  I am really looking forward to seeing how it looks when you get done.

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## Lynn

I am off today. I have made a little headway.

The mist tubing is attached to the mist head on the inside.
The brackets are ready for hanging pothos vines.



The hand glass painting is done.
Sorry for the glare. 









AND - Will it hold water ?? I am going to fill the back water area today. Yikes !





Lynn

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## Lynn

Trying out some plants in the plant holders !
They have been potted for weeks .







************************

Now for that water test.
I think I am procrastinating!

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## Don

Looking pretty awesome.  Yes, I would use silicone myself for the bonding you need to do.

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## Lynn

> Looking pretty awesome.  Yes, I would use silicone myself for the bonding you need to do.


Thanks Don,
I appreciate and needed advice on the bonding.
I did some reading about other alternatives today.
No go, everything is so toxic.
So, I will go with the silicone.
Lynn

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## Don

I didn't notice, but did you silicone the inside lip of the plastic (was top) inside the tank?

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## Lynn

> I didn't notice, but did you silicone the inside lip of the plastic (was top) inside the tank?


I'm not sure I know what you mean? Sorry

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## Lynn

Water test is good !!!



Moving on !

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## Don

The inside trim at the bottom and up some of the sides should be siliconed (inside the tank) to not allow water from your drainage area to get between the trim and the glass and leak out through the trim that was originally the tanks top.

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## Lynn

> The inside trim at the bottom and up some of the sides should be siliconed (inside the tank) to not allow water from your drainage area to get between the trim and the glass and leak out through the trim that was originally the tanks top.


Oh ! Good point. And Thank You !
But- I don't use "traditional substrate".

Here is a conversation from today, or you could visit my "enclosure album"

http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...ree-frogs.html

Lynn

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## Gail

I take it you have a degree in engineering with all that you are putting into that viv.  It looks amazing Lynn.  Once it's done you need to do a video tour of the place.

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## Lynn

> I take it you have a degree in engineering with all that you are putting into that viv.  It looks amazing Lynn.  Once it's done you need to do a video tour of the place.


NO, not at all! 
I'm a nurse who loves animals AND frogs  :Smile: 
Lynn

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## Lynn

UPDATE

Hi All,
Well, I’m 85 % done. I am trying to be as organized as possible!
I just need to monitor temp and humidity as I’m sure it will need tweaking.
(ignore those setting- I just hooked it up)
I’m happy with the cord cover.





I have used silicone to adhere my planters to the side of the viv. 
My painted ‘tree trunks ‘  ---  reverse glass painting are done.





filtered / heated "froggy spa"  area -below



(I’m planning to do the exo terra as well.)
No more magnets, plus the plants are getting too heavy. 
And, of course, it will be needing FROGS!!!  

A frog's view -below





MY PLAN:  is to move all six of my frogs into this viv 
Most will be there for a temporary stay only.
Then I will clean, silicone the planters, paint the tree trunks, and WAIT for silicone to dry and not smell anymore in my larger enclosure.
When all is ready the 5 -  A. callidryas ( including the 2 albinos) will be put back into the larger enclosure.
The A, moreletii will remain in this vertical converted “critter keeper”.

I am on the lookout for 2 additional morelitii and 1  ( 2?) Xanthic red eye tree frogs.

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## Autumn

WOW Lynn fantastic job so far....bravo! I really like your painted tree trunks, very nice!  :Smile:  You've made great progress!

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## Lynn

Hi All

So the readings on the probe ( temp/humidity ) monitor is at a -- good start!
The heater in the water area  ( "froggy spa" )is set at 74 degrees F. 
( No red eye tree frogs in there yet) burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
I need to add a little heat for the rest of the cooler months.

4pm  today -readings - just before an automated mist-below



Here is what I have to deal w/ in my chilly  basement with out any intervention/ below . What a pain!



Thanks for looking !

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## Lynn

Update............Reverse glass painting .

The hand painted tree trunks are done on both enclosures.
There were many layers of paint.  It was hard !  :Nightmare: 
Each one is different from another.

Sorry for the glare!















I'm just waiting for the silicone to dry a little longer in the conversion. 
Next weekend I will be moving them all in this vertical conversion. 
The A. callidryas will be there temporarily while I clean and silicone the planters in the larger enclosure. 

Soon 'Boggie'  ( A. moreletii)  will have her own new apartment !   :Glee: 

Lynn

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## Lynn

BEFORE AND AFTER PHOTOS



manufacture's advertisement



in the back of the car -after having the hole drilled in the top







front door - ON



front door - OFF

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## Will

Lynn, that looks awesome.  Your little ones are gonna LOVE IT!  You did a great job there and you have set a spark now to do a vert conversion.  So many ideas rolling, just no painting trees for me!  My artistic abilities lack there!

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## Lynn

> Lynn, that looks awesome.  Your little ones are gonna LOVE IT!  You did a great job there and you have set a spark now to do a vert conversion.  So many ideas rolling, just no painting trees for me!  My artistic abilities lack there!


Thanks Will,  :Tickled Pink: 

I got the idea from a video I watched on painting aquarium backgrounds.

The glass painting technique took a bit of practice getting the layer thing right.
Details have to go on the glass first.
Then every time you add a color / the color (looking  from the inside) changes .
There is really no artistic ability needed. Believe me- I have none. 
I draw like a 3 year old.
I practiced on some picture frame glass first.
I scrapped  2 or 3 off the enclosure glass !  :Upset:  But, eventually got all 13 tree trunks done!
The paint is applied in sort of a combination  of:  dabbed, wiped , brushed , sponged and smeared 
The more wacky the paint layers the better!!!   :Big Grin: 
Some places are even partially scraped off and then paint reapplied.

I did it to avoid an interior background so I am able to keep the inside glass clean!

I can just imagine what someone could do if they were artistic. 
I would love to see what Autumn or Heather could do. 
A solid back painted beautifully- would be really awesome!

Lynn

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## Autumn

Wonderful work Lynn!! I can already see that your frogs are going to love it! I like your choice of plants too....very nice! 

Was it hard working with spray paint? I've never worked with spray paint before, but it would be fun to give it a try!

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## froglover27

Just a quick question....for the background, can you use acrylic paint instead of spray paint?? Thanks!! It looks SOOO great! :Smile:

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## Lynn

> Wonderful work Lynn!! I can already see that your frogs are going to love it! I like your choice of plants too....very nice! 
> 
> Was it hard working with spray paint? I've never worked with spray paint before, but it would be fun to give it a try!


Hi Autumn,
I didn't use spray paint. I brushed, dabbed, swirled, swiped etc  : "Martha Stewart -Crafts paints. (satin). -cures in 21 days and is dishwasher safe". I painted on the outside glass of the enclosure!
Lynn

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## Lynn

> Just a quick question....for the background, can you use acrylic paint instead of spray paint?? Thanks!! It looks SOOO great!


Hi Justine,
I did use a type of acrylic paint. I brushed, dabbed, swirled, swiped etc : "Martha Stewart -Crafts paints. (satin). -cures in 21 days and is dishwasher safe". I painted on the outside glass of the enclosure!
Lynn

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## froglover27

oh cool!! Do you think it really matters what TYPE of acrylic paint is used??

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## Lynn

> oh cool!! Do you think it really matters what TYPE of acrylic paint is used??



YES, I would have to say that it does matter.
I don't think regular acrylic paint will cure permanently on glass.
I think it would scratch off.
But, I'm not a paint expert.

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## froglover27

> YES, I would have to say that it does matter.
> I don't think regular acrylic paint will cure permanently on glass.
> I think it would scratch off.
> But, I'm not a paint expert.


True.....maybe if you put a coating of some type of sealer thingy?? hmmmmmm

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## Lynn

> True.....maybe if you put a coating of some type of sealer thingy?? hmmmmmm


? Sorry, I don't know , as I have not tried either.
I guess you could purchase a small pc of glass and experiment ?

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## Lynn

Up date:
The move has gone well -- this AM. 
They all went back to sleep immediately.
It was fun to touch them!    :Love Heart: 
The male Albino was a bit upset -he made little startle croaks when he was in my hand   :EEK!: .
He seemed to be most frightened when handled; but has finally settled down.



Above- Left side of photo: I finished painting the tree trunks in the larger viv.  and in the processing using silicone to adhere the planters onto the glass. When completely dry- the A. callidryas will return to that enclosure ( where they were).



The A. moreletii settled on the front/ interior glass behind the screen of his "vertical conversion".

My Plans:
I Am hoping for an Xanthic ( A. callidryas) from Bill Schwinn ( who is trying !)
 and 2 additional A. moreletii from Michael Novy ? I hope.

Quarantine tanks are ready to go a a moments notice !

Thanks for looking, Lynn

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## J Teezy

you actually found a store to drill your glass for you?  how much that cost?  I called all kinds of glass shops and aquarium places in my area and nobody would drill it, i had to get a bit and do it myself

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## Lynn

> you actually found a store to drill your glass for you?  how much that cost?  I called all kinds of glass shops and aquarium places in my area and nobody would drill it, i had to get a bit and do it myself


Not really sure how much $ ?
I purchased small pieces of glass for the front as well at the same time.
Including the velcro/plexi cord cover he made for me.
My bill was $25.00.
So,  pretty good deal. I think

He was concerned it was tempered glass. I assured him it was not.
He is a very experienced glass cutter. 
I told him that if it broke I would not hold him responsible.
They all get so wigged-out about the glass breaking. 
Lynn

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## Brian

Hi Lynn, just wanted to say this is pretty terrific! I like the open kinda look this has while still having lots of plant cover available. I also like that you've used plants as the main structural element. The faux tree backgrounds look pretty slick too :Smile: .

I'm sure your A. moreletii will enjoy its new home and good luck acquiring roommates!

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## Lynn

> Hi Lynn, just wanted to say this is pretty terrific! I like the open kinda look this has while still having lots of plant cover available. I also like that you've used plants as the main structural element. The faux tree backgrounds look pretty slick too.
> 
> I'm sure your A. moreletii will enjoy its new home and good luck acquiring roommates!



Thanks very much, Brian
It has been relaxing and fun doing this conversion.   :Frog Smile: 
I enjoy taking care of the plants-too!
That's why I have gone through so much trouble w/ the planters. 
Martin ( ViperJr) inspired me to create a separate place for my A. moreletii ; otherwise I would have never done it.
I had this "critter keeper" . It was my very first viv. I figured it was worth a try to convert it. 

Autumn has done a conversion w/ this same enclosure as well.  It's beautiful!  :Congratulatory: 

Lynn

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## Autumn

> Hi Autumn,
> I didn't use spray paint. I brushed, dabbed, swirled, swiped etc  : "Martha Stewart -Crafts paints. (satin). -cures in 21 days and is dishwasher safe". I painted on the outside glass of the enclosure!
> Lynn


Oh ok!  :Smile:

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## J Teezy

yeah that's usually the first thing out of their mouth is "we don't drill glass because of the chance of it breaking" and i make sure to tell them if you break it i don't care and won't hold you responsible.  Even told them i'd put it in writing.  Only place i found that would do it charged like $30 for a 1.5" hole.  I just laughed and said ok thanks for your time

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## Lynn

I have re-done the front door! 
Two reasons:
1) The screen area I left open was too large and too low on the door.
    As it turns out, I was having a little trouble maintaining the humidity.
    I could have left it and simply sprayed the enclosure more often, but after investing in the Mist King, I decided to change it.
2) I could not bear to continue look the the screen that covered the entire door on the outside. 
     I removed the screen entirely from the door except for the vent area. 
    Now, viewing the enclosure is much more enjoyable.

So, I was brave and CUT the screen and re-frame the entire top! 

Happy now !!!!   :Welcoming:

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## Lynn

Photo update:
Humidity and temp settings are perfect this am!
Changing the location of the screen opening made all the difference.

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## Kristen

Oh wow this whole thread is pretty amazing! Nice work.  :Smile: 
 And when you get your Xanthics, make sure to take HEAPS of pictures  :Wink:

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## Lynn

> Oh wow this whole thread is pretty amazing! Nice work. 
>  And when you get your Xanthics, make sure to take HEAPS of pictures


Kristen,
Thanks! 
I'm keeping my  fingers crossed regarding the Xanthics! 
An xanthic will be housed in my other enclosure w/the other red eyes  ( A. callidryas )
It will be awhile.   I promise pictures !!!!!
Lynn

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## NatureLady

Wonderful post on your conversion!  Thanks for posting the link on where you got the planters!  I am doing my research and plan on doing my first custom viv soon.  Love that you can clean the glass and still have a natural looking background!!!!

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## Lynn

> Wonderful post on your conversion!  Thanks for posting the link on where you got the planters!  I am doing my research and plan on doing my first custom viv soon.  Love that you can clean the glass and still have a natural looking background!!!!


Hi Amanda,
Thank You !
I love the planters. PetTech has some great products. 
They are especially nice for me as I really enjoy having/caring for the 'plants' as well.  :Bloom: 
As mentioned I have used silicone to adhere them to the glass.
They are more sturdy that way, they began to get a little heavy as the plants grew.
 (I have done the same for both enclosures)
It is easy to rotate the plants for cleaning and plant/ enclosure maintenance. 

Thanks for looking ! : excitement:
Lynn

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## Lynn

A little up-date,
You're never done !!! 

This is the product I used ( on the exterior) to seal those annoying little cracks.
Worked like a charm.   :Strawberry:

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## Lynn

I look forward to any advice, of course! With out FF , I don't know what I would do ?  :Tranquillity: 
Up-date:

Well,  my Agalychnis moreletii may be  having a bit of trouble adjusting to her new enclosure?
I pray that this is the problem!
She could be eating better ! I am a little concerned!  :Concern: 
She is eating- but -VERY little.
She looks a tiny bit  thinner to me.



She has not eaten for the past 3 nights.
She ate one dusted cricket 4 nights ago.
( similar pattern for the past 3 weeks) 

All her other behaviors and habits seen to be the same. 
I witnessed her soaked and shed last night.
She was not interested in the food, and just climbed back up to the pothos canopy.
I got up during the past several nights - she was up and hanging out, looking alert, and was not in the same spot in the AM. 
Unfortunately, she had to be moved out for a week after completion of the viv, because I had a front door issue. So, she has been back in for about 10 days. 
I supposed it is reasonable to give her a little longer!

My 2 enclosures are identical, w/ the exception in that the one she is in ( alone)  is 18" wide and not 36" wide ( both are 36" H).

Food for thought:
The biggest difference is- she is alone, and no longer with the A. callidryas 'group' of 5 ( an environment of which she shared since after her quarantine period - late dec 2009)

The difference in care- for all -was adding the Mist King in Jan 12'. /  with distilled water in the bucket.

I have noticed a diminished appetite in the callidryas enclosure as well. We have had VERY, VERY dry weather here. 
It has not really rained for quite sometime.  ????????
This is my 3rd winter w/ my tree frogs, and the most challenging one. The enclosures are in my basement. The weather here is so erratic ( temp wise) I feel like I am constantly adjusting the heat and humidity. I have even gone so-far-as-to get 2 new probe gauges, just in case the other two ( unlikely) have cra****-out, from the mister. 

I have re-place the mist king water ( in the bucket ) to their de-chlorinated water, just to be on the safe side. 

Thanks for reading!  :Smile: 
Lynn

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## Don

I would give it more time since she is shows no physical issues except for the eating habits.  My RETFs have gone for many days at times without taking a cricket from the bowl.  I would think its more adjusting than anything.  I do believe they do better with company but that's just me.

Note that these frogs do slow way down in activity level during the winter months and so will the amount they eat.

When I bought my 1st RETF I believe he went well over a week or even two before I even noticed he moved from the back wall.  After receiving the suggestion of adding a 2nd RETF, he perked up and was out and about and eventually sleeping next to the added tank mate.

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## Lynn

> I would give it more time since she is shows no physical issues except for the eating habits.  My RETFs have gone for many days at times without taking a cricket from the bowl.  I would think its more adjusting than anything.  I do believe they do better with company but that's just me.
> 
> Note that these frogs do slow way down in activity level during the winter months and so will the amount they eat.
> 
> When I bought my 1st RETF I believe he went well over a week or even two before I even noticed he moved from the back wall.  After receiving the suggestion of adding a 2nd RETF, he perked up and was out and about and eventually sleeping next to the added tank mate.


Oh Don , Thank You !
This is just where my thoughts tend to 'go' as well ! It is great to have confirmation from someone more experienced than I! Mike Novy has tads. ( we have been touch)  But it will be a while. I have not heard form him very recently. 

I actually sat down next to the viv in the dark last night w/ my laptop and played moreletii calls for her. It got her up and around ! But she did not eat! 
I'm throwing in a lot of dusted crickets - dusting w. both vits and calcium every night  til' she gets back into her usual intake of food.
 I'm using a bowl and the floor( of which she is more used to) to make dinner as easy a catch as possible. 

Maybe I will puddle on ( without moving her off the glass) a diluted pedialyte soak or dip her tomorrow if she is sleeping on a leaf with out waking her up.
She sleeps like a log! However, I'm positive she soaked last night!

I have raised Discus for years. If one loses a mate it pines in the corner and would die if it did not adjust to new company! 
Not that we can compare these  2 different animals. But you never know ?

Thanks Don !!

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## John Clare

It's a very tough one to figure out.  I tend to side with Don, mainly because I can't really identify what's wrong, and therefore I am hesitant to recommend any new action.  I hope she starts eating properly for you.

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## Lynn

I did a little humidity experiment today. 

Sorry ---this is a lot of information. However, it is very interesting!

Since I have noticed a little less of an appetite in BOTH enclosures; I am also dwelling on what is different  in BOTH enclosures? !!  It is MISTING w/ Mist King and not manually w/ a spray bottle. But it gets better !

 A better explanation might be: since using the MK it's feels different to me when my hands are in the tanks! Some leaves often appear very dry , and other areas very wet. Last night-- I watched a red -eye climbing and his foot got stuck to a leaf! A sure sign that humidity is too low ! (despite the probe gauges reading the humidity in the low 80s at the time ?) 
I misted ! 

 My suspicion regarding the humidity ( recently)  has been – that it has been too LOW not -- too high. 
Note: I increased the MK spray duration of the in both tanks last night.

It’s a different kind of spray:
The mist from the MK is very different when compared to the very , very fine spray  that happens  manually w/ the mist bottle. It is blocked by the many plants and therefore puddles resulting in more dripping to the floor as well as leaving some areas and plants and glass  very dry on the surface.  Whereas the manually aimed spray is a fine spray on all areas equally in a deliberate way. 

Both of the probe gauges (2 separate enclosures ) have ALWAYS been within 1-2 degrees of each other  and 1-2 %  different  in humidity from each other . These are the same gauges have used prior to using MK.  I have been maintaining the humidity as always according to what these gauges read.  I have a few temp gauges of different types in each viv that are reasonably consistent w/ each other, especially when set side by side.  So I do not think the temp is an issue. 

My probe gauges have an open probe end! Like a little cage.
My concerns: 
1)	The type of mist- wetting some areas a lot and leaving some dry
2)	the effect of the MK spray on my probe gauges and therefore the accuracy and swing in readings 


TODAY’S EXPERIMENT
THIS IS WHAT I HAVE DONE:
I went to home depot and purchased 2 battery operated temp/humidity gauges and placed one in each viv. They were placed as close to the probe gauges as possible.

I positioned them prior to the 1 pm MK mist:
15  minutes later this is what the humidity readings were:
(Keep in mind I increased the spray duration last night !!!! 

TANK ONE ( larger tank)    /                TANK TWO ( smaller tank) 
 probe gauge: 85 % H             /         probe gauge: 89 % H
New battery guage: 74% H     /          new battery guage: 82%H

watch what happens to the battery gauge reading!

30 minutes after  MK mist
TANK ONE                            /                  TANK TWO ( smaller tank) 
 probe gauge: 82 %                /             probe gauge: 85 % 
New battery gauge: 72%         /          new battery probe: 78%

one hour later
TANK ONE                            /        TANK TWO ( smaller tank) 
 probe gauge: 78 %              /       probe gauge:  85% 
New battery gauge: 68%      /      new battery gauge: 74%

1 and ½ hours later
TANK ONE                                  TANK TWO ( smaller tank) 
 probe gauge: 78 %                    probe gauge:  82% H
New battery gauge: 67%          new battery gauge: 66%

2 hrs later: ( one hour prior to the next MK spray) 
TANK ONE                        /        TANK TWO ( smaller tank) 
 probe gauge: 81 %           /       probe gauge:  78% H
New battery gauge: 65%     /   new battery gauge: 64%

As time went on over these 2 hours – the swing between the 2 of them got greater.
Battery operated ( no probe) gauges reads too low. 

So, it if did not turn the MK- spray duration- up last night , the humidly would have been even lower today! Based on the 2 new battery operated gauges; It could have been dropping into the 60s’ between sprays.  If I had not compared the 2 side by side I probably would have not made any changes. 
As mentioned , I did all of  this because it feel dry to me as compared to prior to using MK. And my frogs have had  a diminishing  appetite! Especially the moreletii ( in this new enclosure). 

Let’s assume the new battery operated gauges are correct- I have to mist more !
Let’s assume the current probe gauge is correct , I would have left thing the same!
The chances that 2 probe gauges are broken at the same time in unlikely. I think they could be adversely affected by the type of spray form the  MK ? I don’t want to move the location of the probe at this point as I will have nothing to compare things to. The temps , by the way, remained consistent w/in 2-4 degrees of each other w/all 4 gauges , and in both tanks. 

So what am I going to do? Besides go crazy  !!!!!!

1)	I ordered 2 new probe gauges (closed probe type) which should arrive soon ( 2 day delivery)
2)	 I am NOT going to turn the MK up again but supplement w/ the hand sprayer. 
3)	I am going to leave de-chlorinated water in the MK bucket

Good grief !!!!

----------


## J Teezy

i don't think the water type would effect the humidity levels at all unless you are solely doing it for the frogs sake, but simple tap water with dechlorinator in it is most likely going to cause your nozzles to clog sooner.  one thing i've found over the past couple days is that by hand misting my little 10 gallon the tanks humidity would drop faster than when my mistking was handleing the misting (i had to return my pump and zip drip valve to marty because they were leaking and i just got the replacements today so i'll keep an eye on it to see if what i'm saying holds true) but i also recently moved my heat mat closer to substrate level and my exo terra dual hum / temp probe sits on top of it and i have just a temp probe on the cooler side of the tank.  The exo terra probe is an open probe and my sole temp probe is a closed one.  As far as temperature accuracy of the two i put them both in the same spot and temp readings were about 1-2 degrees of each other so i'm hoping the humidity reading i'm going off of is pretty accurate.  I'll probably get a closed humidity probe in the future as well though just to be safe,  especially once my 29 gallon viv is up and running as the darts that are going to be in the 10 gallon will be getting moved to the 29.  The exo terra gauge is also battery operated.  I'm probably going to pick up a manual gauge at the reptile show this weekend just to have something to check accuracy against with.

Come on Lynn go buy one of those EcoZone controllers so you can run 4 dual temp / humidity probes at once!!!  Christmas can't come soon enough because I know I'm getting myself one then unless i hit the lottery before then =).

Also have you thought of maybe calibrating your humidity gauges to see if maybe they are off?

----------


## Don

Are both tanks using the same lighting? 

If your monitoring during lit conditions then the lighting is going to burn off the humidity and if different lighting is used you will have that reduction be different between tanks.

I monitor mine more at night when my frogs are going to be active.  Day time, my humidity will shoot up when the MK runs but will soon drop to about 55 to 60 percent which is fine for REFTs.  (We have some very dry heat in my apartment) 
At night the humidity shoots up and stays up around 70 percent and once the MK kicks in the humidity rises to about 80 -85 percent for a short time and then back down to 70 - 75 percent. I'm using the ZooMed digital hydrometers.

I think as long as your in the 55 - 60 percent range at its lowest during the day then the frogs are getting the humidity they need and i would not over think it.

I have my MK running 15 second sprays at 8am, 12 noon, 6 pm, 10,pm, and then again at 12 midnight.
I use these settings since the MK is also running on three dart tanks which are 99 percent sealed up and the RETF tank has both top and bottom ventilation.   I have not had to drain the RETF tank since the MK has been on it but do on the dart tanks every two weeks.

----------


## Colleen/Jerrod

> Thanks very much, Brian
> It has been relaxing and fun doing this conversion.  
> I enjoy taking care of the plants-too!
> That's why I have gone through so much trouble w/ the planters. 
> Martin ( ViperJr) inspired me to create a separate place for my A. moreletii ; otherwise I would have never done it.
> I had this "critter keeper" . It was my very first viv. I figured it was worth a try to convert it. 
> 
> Autumn has done a conversion w/ this same enclosure as well.  It's beautiful! 
> 
> Lynn





> i don't think the water type would effect the humidity levels at all unless you are solely doing it for the frogs sake, but simple tap water with dechlorinator in it is most likely going to cause your nozzles to clog sooner.  one thing i've found over the past couple days is that by hand misting my little 10 gallon the tanks humidity would drop faster than when my mistking was handleing the misting (i had to return my pump and zip drip valve to marty because they were leaking and i just got the replacements today so i'll keep an eye on it to see if what i'm saying holds true) but i also recently moved my heat mat closer to substrate level and my exo terra dual hum / temp probe sits on top of it and i have just a temp probe on the cooler side of the tank.  The exo terra probe is an open probe and my sole temp probe is a closed one.  As far as temperature accuracy of the two i put them both in the same spot and temp readings were about 1-2 degrees of each other so i'm hoping the humidity reading i'm going off of is pretty accurate.  I'll probably get a closed humidity probe in the future as well though just to be safe,  especially once my 29 gallon viv is up and running as the darts that are going to be in the 10 gallon will be getting moved to the 29.  The exo terra gauge is also battery operated.  I'm probably going to pick up a manual gauge at the reptile show this weekend just to have something to check accuracy against with.
> 
> Come on Lynn go buy one of those EcoZone controllers so you can run 4 dual temp / humidity probes at once!!!  Christmas can't come soon enough because I know I'm getting myself one then unless i hit the lottery before then =).
> 
> Also have you thought of maybe calibrating your humidity gauges to see if maybe they are off?


Hey JT,

Lynn changed to De-chlorinated water because too much exposure to distilled water is bad and can cause health issues with frogs. Its mineral and salt lacking and actually steals vitamins, minerals, and salts from your frogs. She told me earlier that her frog was sitting in direct. Spray path with the MK and so would be soaked several times a day. Very unhealthy for the frog. 

I almost have the substrate basket finished for my Viv :Big Grin: . Its takesn some time.

----------


## Heather

Wow Lynn, I somehow missed this post, but it's fabulous!!!  Likely due to my work schedule.  Anyway, your viv is beautiful and excellently crafted!  I hope your humidity says relatively consistent soon.  

I've wanted a mistking, but haven't purchased one yet.  I currently use a hand-pump pressurized sprayer I purchased from Kmart.  It holds quite a bit of water and by twisting the nozzle end I can adjust the size of the misting droplets and pressure when sprayed.  It works nicely, but definitely takes more time when having to spray 5 tanks. 

Your background painting turned out awesome!!! Ooh, my mind is rolling as to what to do next.  I've thought of etching small designs up the sides of my tanks but it would be tough to do once filled and heavy.  I'd have to do it prior to setting it up.  maybe someday  :Smile: .

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## Will

Hey Lynn, I use the Flukers Digital Hygro/Thermometer.  I ran into the same issue with the dial probes I found that they were off anywhere from 5-10 degrees/% and after adding my digital my little friends are happier.  Here is a link for it from amazon.  

Amazon.com: Fluker&#39;s Digital Thermometer / Hygrometer: Pet Supplies

Hope it helps!

----------


## Lynn

> Wow Lynn, I somehow missed this post, but it's fabulous!!!  Likely due to my work schedule.  Anyway, your viv is beautiful and excellently crafted!  I hope your humidity says relatively consistent soon.  
> 
> I've wanted a mistking, but haven't purchased one yet.  I currently use a hand-pump pressurized sprayer I purchased from Kmart.  It holds quite a bit of water and by twisting the nozzle end I can adjust the size of the misting droplets and pressure when sprayed.  It works nicely, but definitely takes more time when having to spray 5 tanks. 
> 
> Your background painting turned out awesome!!! Ooh, my mind is rolling as to what to do next.  I've thought of etching small designs up the sides of my tanks but it would be tough to do once filled and heavy.  I'd have to do it prior to setting it up.  maybe someday .


Etching !! That would beautiful !! And you are so artistic !

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## Lynn

> Are both tanks using the same lighting? 
> 
> If your monitoring during lit conditions then the lighting is going to burn off the humidity and if different lighting is used you will have that reduction be different between tanks.
> 
> I monitor mine more at night when my frogs are going to be active.  Day time, my humidity will shoot up when the MK runs but will soon drop to about 55 to 60 percent which is fine for REFTs.  (We have some very dry heat in my apartment) 
> At night the humidity shoots up and stays up around 70 percent and once the MK kicks in the humidity rises to about 80 -85 percent for a short time and then back down to 70 - 75 percent. I'm using the ZooMed digital hydrometers.
> 
> I think as long as your in the 55 - 60 percent range at its lowest during the day then the frogs are getting the humidity they need and i would not over think it.
> 
> ...


Thanks Don,
The humidity levels are much better the last 36 hours. Nice and stable. 

I think I am ,simply, looking for reasons as to why she is not eating !
She did ok last night. I guess she is still adjusting? 

Lynn

----------


## Lynn

Boggie's photo from a few minutes ago.  :Sleeping:

----------


## Lynn

"Boggie" up-date

5 minutes ago


I don't think she is sick. She looks too good. Acts pretty normal. Although, sleeps more? If she does not eat she will be sick. 
But, I don't want to take any chances. She was going on 10 days.

 I force fed her on Tuesday. 
( 3 small , headless,legless, dusted crickets) I mushed them up --- in put them into small syringe( needless, of course) 
and  pushed them into her mouth.  She swallowed normally like she would have if she caught a cricket.  I put her back on a leaf and she went back to sleep.
 I have not done this in a while. NOT FUN !! Not since 2010 when I rescued my  red eye - "Monkie"

I have been dribbling on pedialye soaks OR  dipping her and  the leaf she is on-- so I do not have to wake her. She has ALWAYS 'slept like a log'. 
She does not even wake up when she gets a leaf dip !!! 

I have spoken to FF members that I truly respect! And agree that -- maybe she is still adjusting AND perhaps adjusting to being alone? 
Not being w/ the group was my very first thought?  One night , I watched her go up to the corner of her new enclosure and get as close to the red eye calls as she could be. 

I suppose, if she does not start eating on her own , I could put her back in with the red eyes until her company is old enough to be in with her, which would not be until summer as Michael Novy says it will be 6 weeks.  ( he has black eye tads) Then they have to grow , and be quarantined.   Or, I could,  move one red eye in with her? I don't know ?

She was up, alert and shed last night.

For the time being I am leaving de-chlorinated water in the mist king bucket vs distilled, to reduce the frequent spraying w/ distilled water. 

For now the situation requires patience !
Lynn

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## Treesniffer

I've seen lampshades on Antiques Roadshow where the 100 yr old skill of reverse painting shows up now and then. I believe that technique is used here, obviously with new invention of spray paint. I'm not much into the tropical flare, but this video stirs my mind into thinking about other designs for my viv. Thank you for info.

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## Lynn

> I've seen lampshades on Antiques Roadshow where the 100 yr old skill of reverse painting shows up now and then. I believe that technique is used here, obviously with new invention of spray paint. I'm not much into the tropical flare, but this video stirs my mind into thinking about other designs for my viv. Thank you for info.


Treesniffer,
Don't you just love it! It was my inspiration to paint the tree trunks on the outside of my enclosures.  Nice clean background, right!
Someone who is really artistic could really make a beautiful background!
Thanks for looking
Lynn

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## Lynn

> "Boggie" up-date
> 
> I don't think she is sick. She looks too good. Acts pretty normal. Although, sleeps more? If she does not eat she will be sick. 
> But, I don't want to take any chances. She was going on 10 days.
> 
> 
> 
>  I force fed her on Tuesday. 
> ( 3 small , headless,legless, dusted crickets) I mushed them up --- in put them into small syringe( needless, of course) 
> ...


Up-Date on Boggie:
Well, Boggie and I am hanging in there. With the help of Michael Novy. ( thank goodness)
Since the previous photo ( attached here w/ my quote ---5 days ago) she began to get a little weak.
I began to become more concerned because she looked thin to me, too.
For example - she climbed very slowly, and slipped a little when trying to get comfortable on the glass.
Yesterday afternoon was her third Flagyl treatment.

Here is a photo from this AM. A noticeable difference between the 2 since I started the soaks / Flagyl. 


below - 5 days ago- prior to treatment and one additional force feed 


She is strong ! She pushes on on my hand when she is soaking in her little cup.
I think she looks better. 
She has had to be force fed twice.  :Frown: 
Still no crickets on her own. 
She pooped last night. 
She gets up looks bright eyed and explores- but no interest in her food.

Keeping my fingers crossed, Lynn

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## Heather

Great job Lynn! Keep up the good work.

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## Lynn

Up-Date

My conversion thread has sort of turned into a  "Keeping an eye on Boggie" thread.

Well she is NOT worse. No more diarrhea ( which i saw only once)  !!! She does not look thinner to me at this point.
She has not pooped since last Tuesday's force feeding- that I know of.

She still has not eaten on her own? 
Two nights ago I have a feeling I forgot how many cricks I threw in  :Distracted:  There may have been one missing?
Maybe I will go 10 days instead of 1 week for the 3rd  force feeding! sigh  

This afternoon will be day 6 of a flagyl soak.

She gets up ( later than the others , which is typical for her)
Explores/soaks/ hangs out/ naps / sheds - BUT will not eat !!!!!!
She looked a little more ' on the hunt ' around  the crickets last night. 
I sat in the dark- in the basement ( w/ a tiny mini flash light ) from 8:00 to 11:00 last night!

I hope tonight is the night!!!

----------


## Lynn

Up -date on Boggie
Every night I watch her.
Every morning I count crickets  hoping -she ate! 
I went nine days this time--NO LUCK.  :Frown: 
She continues to get up , looks and acts like there is absolutely nothing wrong with her!!!
She soaked last night for 15 min.
Then--walks right past her crickets!!! Looks at them but  no go !

I had to force feed her again yesterday afternoon. One squished ( headless, legless ) medium cricket and a dose of "Repti-boost".
I still have de-chlorinated water in the mist king bucket !

I have current photos- but having trouble w/ uploading right now? 

Lynn

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## J Teezy

sounds like froggie depression

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## Lynn

> sounds like froggie depression


Tell me about it !!
I would give my right arm for a fully quarantined tank mate!  :Dispirited: 
My gut tells my that ---that's what the problem is.
Now I'm stuck because I HAVE to monitor her food intake.

----------


## Lynn

Photo up-dates- taken last night and this AM:

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## Heather

Awe, she's so pretty! Hopefully she'll turn around for you soon. All you can do is keep her healthy and be on the lookout for a buddy. Maybe in time?

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## Lynn

> Awe, she's so pretty! Hopefully she'll turn around for you soon. All you can do is keep her healthy and be on the lookout for a buddy. Maybe in time?


Thanks Heather,
Hope all is well. 
Michael Novy's tads are going to be a while as I think they are just out of water.
Maybe I'll go to the Westchester show? I think one is coming up soon? 
But then there's quarantine..................sigh.    Dont's know. 
At this point , waiting for my two tads may be quicker ?
Her enclosure is beautiful, well planted, nice established pothos canopy--- froggy heaven!
I'm afraid to force feed her too frequently, I don't want her to become dependent on it and loose "the hunt". 

I may be crazy, but she sleeps up in the far L hand corner of the viv right next to "Monkey" ( my rescue)
where the two enclosures are glass-to-glass. Monkey is the noisiest frog I have--- calls all night-every night! 
I'm going to give Michael a call tomorrow and pick his brain. 
And, I am going to call a big herp place that is about a hour away to see what other food sources that may have. 

Lynn

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## Heather

True, quarantine does take quite a while. That's a tough one.

Awe :/. So sweet, but heartbreaking too. 

I agree with the lose the hunt...Twigs seems to have no desire to eat on his own :/. He doesn't even care when I feed him now. I'm going to try and let him feed again this week. He's well-nourished enough now to let him go a bit to 'get hungry'.

I hope your baby will eat soon!

----------


## Lynn

Current photo- this AM.

----------


## Kristen

She is a real stunning frog!  :Smile:

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## Lynn

> She is a real stunning frog!


Thanks Kristen,
She has, really, been a challenge!  :Concern: 
Lynn

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## Kristen

> Thanks Kristen,
> She has, really, been a challenge! 
> Lynn


Is she eating on her own now? 
She looks gorgeous and its all worth it the end  :Smile:  I love the picture of her on the glass

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## Lynn

> Is she eating on her own now? 
> She looks gorgeous and its all worth it the end  I love the picture of her on the glass


No Kristen, I'm afraid she is not eating on her own.  :Frown: 
I'm am , yet again, faced with likely having to force feed her. 
I'm thinking !  :Indecisiveness: 
Thank You for asking about her , Lynn

----------


## Kristen

> No Kristen, I'm afraid she is not eating on her own. 
> I'm am , yet again, faced with likely having to force feed her. 
> I'm thinking ! 
> Thank You for asking about her , Lynn


Aw too bad  :Frown:  Hopefully in time she will eventually start eating on her own.
Thats okay  :Smile:

----------


## Lynn

Hi All,
Okay So I am moving along with my plan to put Boggie back in w/the Red Eyed Tree Frogs.
Yes, back in with the red eyed tree frogs-  A. callidryas
Sadly, I had to force feed for her the 4th time since I move her into her own enclosure.

I have not witness her eat in this enclosure since I moved her on March 3rd.
It is impossible to miss any uneaten crickets/feed. I use feeding bowls and have very simple substrate.
Crickets cannot go unaccounted for- on the floor of this enclosure.

I am baffled ! I have tried everything except:
1)moving her back in w/ the red eyes and monitor her weight
2) removing the mist king ( which I installed 3 weeks prior to the move) 
 (I have considered the tubing vibration bothering her; my red eyes, however, seem completely unaffected by the mist king , and in fact sit on the tubing while it is misting)
3) Possible parasitic infestation?
She continues to look quite well but a speck thinner. Photos from this morning taken throught he glass :





Sunday past  ( in the following order) I weighed her, fed her, and gave her a pedi soak. I am waiting for a poop ( hopefully )  from the Sunday feed to have tested for parasites. She has previously had a week flagyl soaks. I am assuming I should wait a bit before, possibly, exposing her to any additional antibiotics. I have Pancar C ( powder form )  on hand. However, I cannot dust the food with it because she does not eat. 

I purchased her as a froglet in 2009. I cannot imagine that moving her back in w/ the red eyes (where she lived since late Nov 2009) could be more stressful than continuing to force feed her!!!

When 2 additional moreletii are properly quarantined and are big enough to be with her,  I will move them all back into her new enclosure( late summer ?) Two of Michael Novys new A. moreletii tads have my name on them.

Any and all constructive criticism is welcomed as I am not thinned skinned in any way and  appreciate any guidance and ideas. 

Thanks Lynn

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## Will

Good luck, I hope that this gets Boggie acting normal again!

----------


## Lynn

> Good luck, I hope that this gets Boggie acting normal again!


Thanks, Will

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## Brian

Lynn, I'm a little late to this thread - sorry you're having problems.  I have more questions than answers at this point, but hopefully, they'll put us on the right track.

Have you spoken with Mike Novy about this?  I faced a similar scenario with my yellow eyes not long ago and he advised using metronidazole and duramycin.  I did the first and it seemed to produce good results. 

Does she wake and move around at night?  Have you tried to physically move her in front of the feeding bowl?  Have you considered letting the crickets roam around or using a larger feeding bowl to encourage more movement from them?

What makes you think moving Boggie in with the red eyes would help now?  I've never known tree frogs to get genuinely "lonely" to the point of not eating.  I'm sure you're aware of the risks of mixing species - do you think its wise at this point?

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## Lynn

Hi Brian,
Moving her BACK in with the red eyes ( where she always lived) is the ONLY thing I have not tried.
In fact, as it turns out , the stress of moving her is how she got into this perplexing situation in the first place.
(Yes, lots of different opinions about that ) However, I WILL follow my my gut! I did use the metronidazole treatment which ended on 4/10.
She  did  rally--- then all came to a stand still. She is not "lonely" like in the human sense of the word. But , YES, so stressed w/ the move that she stopped eating.
It starts to pile up._ i.e. move-stress-affects the appetite-opportunistic bug starts to get the better of her-more stress -soaks- more stress-handling- more stress - metronidazole - more stress- no food - more stress and so on_ . Before you know it, it's a mess. I contacted Dr Frye today(I will send you the link).
We have a plan . I am hoping things will get better soon. 

Thank You for asking !!! Lynn

----------


## Lynn

*Boggie -- up-date*
Moving Boggie back ? must wait until she is done w/ the( repeat) metronidazole drops/ treatment.
(otherwise I will never know when she eats for the first time -by herself-in 5 1/2 weeks )
Then, I may have to de-worm her IF she has anymore diarrhea between now and then.
Today is day 4 of 10-- of the metronidazole. I fed her Sunday - 4/29

I got so excited, last night, to see  she was definitively hunting!
But only for a for a minute or so, then took a catnap on the leaf she was on.
I got up twice and found her poking around. She was very active last night.  :Smile: 

I could not make catching a cricket easier for her.
One small bowl w/ crickets in a planter 1/2 way up the enclosure wall (18up),  a larger bowel w/ crickets is on the floor.  
AND, there are free roaming ones on the floor of the viv. Any other ideas are REALLY, REALLY , more than welcome. 
A little hunting is better than nothing. It was good to see. 
Nothing missing again this am.

I have wax worm pupae ready to hatch.
Maybe a moth   :Triumphant:   will get her attention !

Thanks for all the support and PM's


photo-a few minutes ago after application of metronidazole drops
Lynn

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## Heather

She's looking good. I hope she eats for you soon! You are such a good mom!

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## Lynn

> She's looking good. I hope she eats for you soon! You are such a good mom!


"Heath"
And you are a good FF friend!!! Thank You! 
She is exhausting !

I wish someone would  say: " I know exactly what you need to do, and exactly what will get her to eat " 
Wishful thinking. I will continue to stumble along ( but in good   :Welcoming:  company ) 
Lynn

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## Heather

Awe, thanks! So are you!  :Smile: 

I know exactly what you mean. I'm thinking about starting Twigs on flagyl to see if I can stimulate his appetite. Not that I mind feeding him, but it's not natural, and he's still in his own tank bc it's hard to find him in the big viv. If I can't find him, I can't feed him. I love my little stinker, but it's tough. 

I'll keep crossing my fingers for you!

----------


## Lynn

I had to make a split second decision! 
Boggie was shedding on the front of the door. 
I'm watching her, and all of a sudden ............it hits me. 

*YES - I  tricked her.* 
I dropped  a cricket in when she stretched her mouth _nice and wide_.
Down the hatch it went !! She swallowed nicely as usual and kept right shedding. 
It's kind of cheating --- but  much better then force feeding !!!!!

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## Brian

Good thinking Lynn!  That's not cheating; it's resourcefulness  :Frog Smile:

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## Don

Wow, thats awesome :-)

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## Heather

Great idea!  :Big Grin:

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## Lynn

GREAT,  :Excitement:  GREAT NEWS !!!!
*Yes!* It looks like I have a missing crickets from last night, actually from this morning.

I woke at 5:30 to find her sitting on the divide looking like she was going to pounce. 
I immedialey left so I would not bother her. 
It is a common behavior of hers , to get up at night after the RETFs , and still be up (when I get up) the in the morning.

I have waited all day for the missing cricket to show up. 
There is a ,very, slight possibility it is in a plant. But, I don't think so. 

*Six weeks* without catching her own cricket !!!!

Lynn  :Butterfly:

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## Heather

That's so awesome!!! I hope she ate it  :Smile: .

----------


## Lynn

Boggie - Up-date:
A few photos from, very ,early this AM -- _ of the spoiled rotten brat_ - during and after a pedi soak. 

12 hours after her 1st , weekly, Panacur dose. I dropped a cricket into her mouth ,again, during a shed to get the panacur into her.
WOW!  does that work well. No stressful / handling necessary !!!! 
I get it all ready.  When she closes her eyes and opens her mouth. Down the hatch it goes!!!












Taking it day-by-day   :Concern: 
Lynn

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## Heather

She's so cute! I'm impressed with your technique  :Big Grin: .

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## Will

It is so hard not to spoil them, they are like little kids!  She is soooo cute!!!!!

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## Lynn

Anorexic--- A. moreletii 
One week ago I found I had one missing cricket.  
Review:
I have 2 enclosures- tall , well planted, well suited for tree frogs and monitored carefully
Boggie( black eye---- A moreletii)  was moved into her own (my 2nd viv  --created specifically for her- on 3/3/12 ) after living w/ RETFs for a year and a half
All my frogs ( excet one ) ( over the past > 2 1/2  years)  were quarantined for at least 6 weeks or greater
The "except one" was a rescue and was in quarantine for 6 months- vet treated for very bad abrasions
*That was that* after moving her - she stopped eating and then developed intermittent diarrhea just about the same time I started a  metronidazole / soaking treatment  to stimulate her appetite. No luck ! 

She has completed a repeated liquid metronidazole drops/ treatment ( duration 14 days ) Vet Rx
She has had --as of Sunday night, 2 doses of Panacur ( which will be weekly for 4 doses) vet Rx
She has had, along the way intermitted pedi soaks and force feedings
In between these 2- recent - panacur doses she had 2 poops -one was diarrhea and one normal  in that order ? 
How do I administer a cricket dusted w/ panacur to a frog that does not eat ? 
I get it all ready- sit there- and wait for her to shed. When she closes her eyes and opens her mouth I drop it in.
This method is working really well , and reduces the stress of handling and force feeding.
Sunday night she had this 2nd  panacur/dusted cricket and one additional small cricket w/the usual vits and calcium. 
She has looked good throughout all of this- w / the exception of a few days prior to starting the 2nd vet Rx- liquid metronidazole
She gets up, soaks, and makes believe she is hunting - but does NOT eat. I have witnessed  her in the cricket bowl!
No weight loss- she still weighs the same as she did 1 week after I moved her. ( I have weighed her 3X since 3/10ish)
I am quite positive she did grab her own cricket 1 week ago
A wax worm moth got her attention !  I cannot find it?
I can, very accurately, keep track of crickets as my substrate is very simple.
I feed on the floor and in bowls
I know exactly what I put in and remove the next day w/ a head count for both enclosures
I have 5 RETFs in the tank she came form- all are well -NONE have has any diarrhea, are active, and eat well 

I am excited about my delivery of 3 froglet A. moreletii (form Michael Novy) next week.
They are young and will have to be in a nursery/quarantine enclosure for quite some time.
If all goes well, *maybe, just maybe* , by late July early August she will have a little community and company this enclosure? 
There is a lot of work ahead to prepare this viv for the addition of these 3 babies ! !

5:30 this AM ---- " make believe hunting"   :Disturbed:  

  

  

Thanks for reading and following along , your support and comments are very much appreciated as always. 
Lynn

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## Lynn

Is is safe to say she is eating on her own ?
There has been a missing cricket the past two nights.


Hunting - taken at 6 am this morning
Such a cutie!

Lynn  :Butterfly:

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## Heather

It sounds as if she is  :Smile: ! I sure hope so! How exciting would that be?

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## Lynn

> It sounds as if she is ! I sure hope so! How exciting would that be?


I think so Heather. She looks great ! It has been really, really hard work. Her company is coming tomorrow !!!!
I will be months, though, until they can join her. I will need a clean fecal before even thinking about putting them in with her!
Have a great day. Thank you for all of your kind thoughts!

I have been off all of last week. Today will be a nightmare!!!!! Yuck !

Lynn :flybyferns:

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## Heather

She really is beautiful and you have been more than patient and have given her such tedious loving care  :Smile: . You're a great mom! 

It is my pleasure to share such much needed emotional support. I think it's needed sometimes. Especially here, when others just don't understand how we care about our frogs. They are pets to us, not just frogs in tanks  :Smile: .

I can hardly wait to see your new babies  :Smile: ! 

Back to work? Or back to froggie mothering? 

Great work!!!!  :Smile:

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## Lynn

I think,  I am truly _ out of the woods_ !!!
"Boggie" has hunted for her own food 3 time in the past week.
Last night she ate 2 crickets. Imagine that  !
 :Butterfly:

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## Heather

Yay!!!!  :Smile:

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## Lynn

> Yay!!!!


Thanks Heath,
She ate again last night . She had a ball chasing a wax worm moth around her enclosure.
I watched her catch it!
I still can not believe she went more then an 7 weeks w/out hunting for her own food.
I had a feeling she was on the mend when I started to see her- still up - again in the morning.
I get up 5:30-- 6 am. ; she was always- still up- when she was w/ the red eyes. 
This behavior rarely ever occurred in her new enclosure until 2 weeks ago. 
I learned  a lot form all of this. 

We know changing their environment is extremely stressful; but more specifically, if the environment they are in at the time is NOT stressful to them, I think it makes the adjustment worse? I don't know if it is possible, but the "community" within the enclosure must create responses ,behaviors, reactions they become very used to. As a result of moving her ( alone) dynamics within her enclosure changed radically and abruptly. In retrospect her activity was definitively affected by the move. As if she were sulking? I don't think she simply became ill. Her "illness" ( ie no appetite and diarrhea) was an opportunistic one because of the stress of a very different environment regarding population. Other forum members,  I highly respect, kept ( politely) telling me it had to be "something else". ie temp/ humidity? All the parameters w/in her enclosure were as identical as a human could make them, right down to plant inventory, automatic misting , lighting etc. 

Have a great weekend? I hope you have some holiday time off w/ your family.

I was thinking , maybe someday we could meet at he Hamburg show in PA?
That would be a long drive/east for you though, as it's near Allentown. It is about  3 1/2- 4 hr drive for me w/ the usual NY/ NJ traffic.
We could buy lunch for Novy !!!!  :Adoration:  
And you could buy more frogs !!!!!!!!!!  : excitement:
 :Butterfly:

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## Lynn

They are really worth all of  the hard work !!!!   :Love Heart: 

_Sleeping Beauty_ 

Today -  11:15 am





 :Butterfly:

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## Lynn

Whoohooo !!!!
The Boggster ate 3 crickets last night !!

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## Heather

Lynn, I absolutely agree! I really think that lack of socialization that she had with the red eyes (friends) caused stress for her. We both know they communicate  :Smile: . I am sooo happy she's eating again  :Smile: !!! 

I have a feeling once they adjust to one another they'll all be happy  :Smile: . 

(Not the same species...but my pacs were acting funny recently. Eating less and bouncing off the adjacent walls of their tanks, which are about a foot apart. They'd make clicking noises. I finally tested it out, though a little leery they would fight. Nope, not even close...they hopped close to each, first with my hand between them, and made clicking noises. Both were then completely relaxed  :Smile: . Wa laa!  :Smile:  aAnd they are not even considered a social species like some tree frogs. )

They are all beautiful!  :Smile:  And you've been very patient with Boggie. I have no doubt others would have lost her through her illness phase. Great job!  :Smile:

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## Heather

That'd would be a blast! I'd love to! We'll have to check out dates for the next show. Lunch with Mike would be fun too. 

We'd have to bring our photo albums, haha!

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## Lynn

Waiting for company. 
I'm ticking to my plan! 

6/1/2012



6/1/2012 



 :Butterfly:

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## Lynn

*Happy Ending !!!*
Eating regularly.
Yesterday 5:30am - going back to bed !
 :Butterfly:

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## Lynn

Well "Boggie" continues to do really , really well---- readily feeding on her own.
BUT !!!
I cannot believe what I just heard !!! 

Yes--- three little consecutive ( A. moreletii ) chirps.

Is it possible?  I have had _her_ for greater than 2 years and have never heard a peep?

 :Butterfly:

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## Heather

Haha! Maybe "he" can sense his new friends and is calling to them? How cute! A croaking frog is a happy frog  :Big Grin: .

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## Heather

Have you heard any more Boggie chirps?

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## Lynn

I sure have!
Every night since.
*Plus- HE has nuptial pads, Heath!*



I am searching for something to determine the exact date I purchased him( as a sub-adult)?
I have written in more that one spot it was......11/09.
I have a feeling I actually have the *year* mixed up.
I am positive:
1- I have never heard him call
2- I have never seen nuptial pads

Maturity wise, 11/10 makes more sense to me. Time flies !!!!!!!
I will have to search emails to my son as I always share things like that with him. 

I bought a new exo for the balck eyes !!!! They will be needing more space when the babies are w/ the Boggster!  :Wink: 


 :Butterfly:

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## Heather

That is sooo awesome!  :Big Grin:  
Congrats!!!  :Smile:

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## Heather

Which exo terra did you choose?  :Smile:

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## Lynn

> Which exo terra did you choose?


Heath,
I purchased the  exo 36H x 24w .  Good deal- I bribed  my local herp joint. ( $229 )
The planters have been up for 11 days( silicone is finally dry !) the smell is gone.
I just need to mist it really well and give it the sniff test again.
The painting is done. The plants are detoxified .
Boggie will move in this weekend. No adjustment period expected.
It is as identical as possible. ( except 6 1/2" wider and 2 " deeper.
The screen top will be sooooooo much better! 
The vertical conversion, in my opinion, is difficult to properly ventilate. 
This weekend will be perfect as the temp in the basement will be 78 F.
They will all eventually need the room. 
In fact, they should probably be in the 36 x36 where the red eyes are; but i'm not going to dare do that!!
I am adding an additional ( single) mist head. 
My super-duper fabric substrate is cut, washed an ready to go! 
( I found 2 new patterns--- leaves and sticks!!!) soft leaves and sticks  lol

I just need ( muscles) to help me move it. 
Talk to you soon ! 

Lynn  :Butterfly:

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## Heather

Awesome!  :Smile:  Great idea of trying to duplicate it's look. I can hardly wait! I hope he will love it. I'll be exciting when the time comes for the babies to move in  :Smile: . It's a nice sized home. 

Its fun following all of their progress  :Smile: .

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