# Frogs & Toads > Tree Frogs >  I think my WTF may be sick..

## Michael

I have recently purchased two WTF. One is doing great, is of a healthy weight and eats whenever presented crickets. They are both somewhat active at night, the heatlhy frog seems a bit more active of course. Sadly the other Whites is very skinny, he was pretty skinny when I got him but he seems a little worse now. He usually refuses food, but I can get him to eat 2 or 3 crickets with some effort. Both frogs were eating voraciously when I first purchased them.. not sure why he has become worse off.

I've been checking their feces, the healthier frog is having larger rice grain shaped stools. The other frogs are not entirely watery but they are a bit more watery and smaller. The more concerning part is the smell, it is TERRIBLE.. it was so bad I cleaned out their temporary tank outside with a hose because when I took a whiff and it smells more like cow poop than frog poop..

Just some additional info, I recently moved the frogs to a temporary tank, a 35g hex that is 24" tall, they are now back in their 25x18x25 enclosure. I am keeping the day time temperatures around 80F-85F; false bottom heated water + a heat lamp to bask. Night time temps are 75F-77F. I am feeding the frogs every other day. The healthy one is eating 6 crickets per feeding, the other frog is eating 3 at the most. I am dusting once a week.

I don't want to say it's parasites yet, these are new frogs. I suppose the frog could just be stressed from being moved from the pet store to to a temporary tank and now in his final home..

I do not know if there are any vets near by that will see a frog. Is there anything I could do until I find a vet? I am pretty bummed, never really had a sick frog before. Any help would be appreciated.

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## bill

Where did you purchase them from? 

I would separate them, if possible. From what you are describing, it sounds like some sort of parasite. Although, I could be wrong. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Michael

> Where did you purchase them from? 
> 
> I would separate them, if possible. From what you are describing, it sounds like some sort of parasite. Although, I could be wrong. 
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


I purchased them both from Sailfin in Champaign, IL. I bought them together.

I could move the sickly frog in to a hospital tank, the 35g hex again. I moved them back to their main terrarium last night. I feel really bad. :\

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## bill

Ah don't feel bad. Sometimes things are out of our control. I only asked where you got them because we all know certain store are notorious for having wc animals with parasites. But it is possible they came from the same importer as the other places. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Michael

I could call the store and talk to the owner, I could see if these are wild caught or not. I am not sure, heck he may not know either.

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## Lija

Gosh, i gotta go now, ill be back with the whole thing in a hour or so, ok? Meanwhile please put them both in separate hospital set ups separately

 oh and if you put them in your pretty tank that you were making i may have bad news for you  :Smile:

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## Carlos

Hi Michael!  Sorry your frog is not well.  Without a fecal it's not possible to tell of any parasites.  A herp vet or online lab can do those for you.  

You could separate them and set-up the skinny one in a hospital like enclosure.  That will make collecting the poops sample easier and separate from each other.  Kind of late to ask; but did you quarantine them?  Since they where housed together; I would medicate both for whatever condition you find on skinny one with stool issues.

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## bill

Honestly, at this point, it doesn't really matter. 

Lynn and heather are the experts on this stuff. It's not really my forte. Like you, I never really had to deal with a sick frog. There is probably something easy(ish) you can do, but in the meantime, I would shoot off an email to doc frye. His info is around here somewhere. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## bill

Yay!! The cavalry is here!!


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Gail

Call your Vets in the area to see if they will do a fecal on the sickly one.  No need to take the frog in, just a fecal sample so they can see what's going on.  This isn't stress, as Bill suggested, it's most likely parasites & you do need to separate them.  Mine were the same way when I first got them a few years back.

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## GrandMusai

I have two juveniles one of who went through something similar. I remember looking at it one day and noticing it had lost a bit of weight and had runny stool that absolutely REEEEKED anytime I got near its cage. For me I think it had to do with the water quality because this was right before I learned the difference between Tap, Well, Spring and Distilled water so I'm a little curious as to what type of water are you using?

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## Michael

I'm at work right now but I will remedy this when I get home tonight. I did place them in the new vivarium but if I need to break it down again it's fine, I am an expert at vivarium breakdown at this point. They've only been in the new set up for less than one day but I suppose that is long enough to have possibly infected the enclosure.. bummer.

I can house them separately tonight with paper towel. I am assuming they both need to be treated for worms after a fecal exam if it is positive. There is a vet that is in the next town over that states on their site they will see reptiles, I assume he could handle a frog fecal exam.

I know it's not really from improper care but I do still feel terrible. Poor guy looks really skinny, it's sad. They were both eating like champs when I bought them. I checked the vivarium this morning to see how he was doing but I couldn't even find him, I think he burrowed in to the substrate, or I didn't look through the plants well enough.. the other guy was his normal happy self though.

Is there anything I can do to help in the mean time after I place them in hospital tanks? When I get home I will take pictures and post them, if that will help.

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## Michael

> I have two juveniles one of who went through something similar. I remember looking at it one day and noticing it had lost a bit of weight and had runny stool that absolutely REEEEKED anytime I got near its cage. For me I think it had to do with the water quality because this was right before I learned the difference between Tap, Well, Spring and Distilled water so I'm a little curious as to what type of water are you using?


Tap treated with seachem prime, same as I use with my aquatic frogs. Water dish replaced with fresh water daily. The feces smell is absolutely rancid.

I did break down their temporary hex tank the other night because the smell was so terrible I felt it was downright cruel to keep them in a tank that smelled so badly. I smelled it again, the smell is back.. so it's definitely from their fecal matter.

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## Lija

Hate typing on a phone  :Frown:  michael, dont feel bad). I can guarantee you both are full of parasites and based on stinky runny stool massive protozoa infection too. You will need to treat both and get both tested too.
There is nothing else you can do other then place them in a hospital set ups, both separately. Plastic plants ( so you can ) disinfect them properly, wet papertowels, all sides of the enclosures covered with smth. Every single day complete full set up disinfection and change of papertowels. Wear gloves and make sure if you have more frogs not to touch anything and attend to your treated frogs the last.  Full on quarantine. 
 Parasites happen all the time, usually easily treated if respect strict quarantine requirements.

 Lol i meant i can guarantee you, both frogs are full of...

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## Michael

I emailed a vet in my area that says on their website that they will see reptiles. Crossing my fingers they can help.

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## Lija

You better call  :Smile:  if you need to double check anything ( dosage, etc) lemme know. Basically all you want from vet is fecal and meds  :Smile:  - that is in case they dont treat frogs.

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## Michael

> You better call  if you need to double check anything ( dosage, etc) lemme know. Basically all you want from vet is fecal and meds  - that is in case they dont treat frogs.


They're not open today, they open at 8am tomorrow though. I am going to call then. Well actually their website says they're open 4pm to 9pm on Tuesdays? I can try calling after work.

I ran home on lunch. I can't even find the poor guy.. I think he dug himself in to the substrate. I didn't have time to tear apart the tank on my lunch to find him.. going to check tonight, ugh..

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## Lija

Hey, just dont panic, all will be just fine, including frogs. Tomorrow early or after 4 doesnt make any difference. When you call you can ask them to get tests done and get you meds. That's it. What you need to do is to find their poop, put in small ziplocs ( each frog poop separately) and bring it in. Most protozoa found in frogs are commensal and are hard to distinguish in one sample. I know not many vets know how to do so, even experienced with reptiles ones, but if the poop is runny and stinky, frog is eating but is skinny, it is 99,99% guarantee a frog has either pathogenic protozoa or very small threshold resisting nonpathogenic protozoa. You will be prescribed with metronidazole ( flagyl) or ivermectin, both have neurologic side effects, so dosage be better correct.

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## Michael

> Hey, just dont panic, all will be just fine, including frogs. Tomorrow early or after 4 doesnt make any difference. When you call you can ask them to get tests done and get you meds. That's it. What you need to do is to find their poop, put in small ziplocs ( each frog poop separately) and bring it in. Most protozoa found in frogs are commensal and are hard to distinguish in one sample. I know not many vets know how to do so, even experienced with reptiles ones, but if the poop is runny and stinky, frog is eating but is skinny, it is 99,99% guarantee a frog has either pathogenic protozoa or very small threshold resisting nonpathogenic protozoa. You will be prescribed with metronidazole ( flagyl) or ivermectin, both have neurologic side effects, so dosage be better correct.


Sorry about my ignorance here but is flagyl taken orally or would the frog soak in this? Would Methalyne Blue help here with protozoan infections? Curious because as a fish keeper, I do have this on hand.

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## bill

The flagyl is for you. It's taken the same way as a suppository.   :Wink: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Michael

> The flagyl is for you. It's taken the same way as a suppository.  
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


Exit only, buddy! =P

My concern here is I just am iffy about prying a small creatures mouth open to administer medication.

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## bill

Hee hee!! Just wanted to get a smile on your face bud. You seemed like you were a half a step away from a panic attack  :Wink: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Michael

I'm more worried at the moment over the fact I cannot _find_ the frog right now.. lol

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## Michael

Okay when I got home I was able to find him but I had to basically remove every plant and wood piece from the tank to find him..



Here he is, I've placed him in the 35g hex for a hospital set up, he was very active when I finally found him and unearthed him.. he was all over the place.

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## Lija

Good news for you - you will need to rip all your set up, get rid of everything that cant be disinfected.  

More good news  :Smile:  your frog looks fine, little skinny, but fine and s/he is eating! 

 Yep flagyl is administered orally! Have fun!

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## Michael

> Good news for you - you will need to rip all your set up, get rid of everything that cant be disinfected.  
> 
> More good news  your frog looks fine, little skinny, but fine and s/he is eating! 
> 
>  Yep flagyl is administered orally! Have fun!


I've already broken down the tank. How can I disinfect the plants though? I just ordered a bunch from blackjungle so please don't say 50 dollars worth of plants are going down the drain.. :\ They were only in the tank for a single night and the sick guy buried himself immediately for some reason.. I mean if it has to be, alright but ugh...

Removing substrate and bleaching the tank out? That I can easily do.

I've placed each frog in to a 10 gallon tank with wet paper towel and I ripped up my snake plant so they have something to climb on. I taped up 3 sides of each aquarium so they don't stress and they are sharing a heat lamp.

Oh and I called the vet clinic but did not get to speak with the vet directly. The woman I spoke with didn't sound like they've ever dealt with amphibians but she said the vet would call me back if she could do the fecal exam.

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## Lija

That is Bill's area of expertise  :Smile:  no idea about the plants, but substrate is gotta go. You might wait for fecal to be back though, i dont wanna get bombarded with ripped tomatoes  :Smile:  just to be very very sure. You can contact dr frye he is dealing with all over the emails/phone and sending meds to anywhere in US.

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## Michael

> That is Bill's area of expertise  no idea about the plants, but substrate is gotta go. You might wait for fecal to be back though, i dont wanna get bombarded with ripped tomatoes  just to be very very sure. You can contact dr frye he is dealing with all over the emails/phone and sending meds to anywhere in US.


I'm going to remove the substrate and just bleach it out, the plants.. I can put those in a window for now and maybe just give them a good rinse. I'll see what Bill thinks on that.

Once I get the fecal exam I'll shoot Dr Frye and email if necessary. Hopefully the local vet can help out.

Should I continue to feed the frogs? My skinny guy just was not interested in food today, he ate three crickets last night.. I want them to do their 'business' of course.

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## bill

Bleach dip the plants in a 10% solution. Do not bleach moss. Leave it out to dry for a month  then you can put it back in an rehydrate it. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Lija

> I'm going to remove the substrate and just bleach it out, the plants.. I can put those in a window for now and maybe just give them a good rinse. I'll see what Bill thinks on that.
> 
> Once I get the fecal exam I'll shoot Dr Frye and email if necessary. Hopefully the local vet can help out.
> 
> Should I continue to feed the frogs? My skinny guy just was not interested in food today, he ate three crickets last night.. I want them to do their 'business' of course.


 Sure you can feed, nothing overcomplicated you need to be aware about. Ca and multivitamin dusting schedule as usual.

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## Michael

Here is an odd twist... the frog with a healthier weight, it is HIS feces that is rancid. The other frogs not so much, though his poop was smaller.. but it was not runny. I tried to feed them this morning, the skinny guy ate two then lost interest, the other frog just wasn't interested in food this morning.

I need to get the fecal test done either way, at this point I am just waiting for the vet to return my call.

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## Lija

To add to what i just told you 
 It is normal for a frog to have massive protozoa infection and have a runny stool. That is why it is advisable to quarantine each frog separately, you see everything, how they eat, what they poop, what they have or not.  Same with treatment, one frog might be ok after 2 treatments and poop come back negative, but other might require. I alway advise to do a chytrid testing too.

 Telling you they both will be just fine.

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## Michael

Would it be safe to treat the frogs with lamisil regardless or would a test be better first? I am not sure how stressful lamisil are on frogs.

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## Gail

For my WTF oral meds are easy to give by injecting a waxworm or cricket with the meds.  Or you can use a dosing needle which works great also, but the bug thing is easier.

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## Lynn

Michael,
It's really best to wait for the fecal test result.
You don't want to treat and then find out it's something else!
Plus, they may be on medication for a long time. Why give them something they don't need.

For now I would keep them in QT and separated.
QT for illness is different than QT for 2 newly acquired frogs ( that could be QT'd together)
Concentrate on daily cleaning when they are sleeping so it will reduce the stress of being moved/handled.
Use disposable gloves between each tank !!!!!!!! Keep good habits of getting the  paper towels and gloves OUT to the garbage can!
Don't worry about how long they are in QT .
I would purchase 2 ---10 gallon aquariums w screen lids. 
Add pleixi or glass to the screen lid to help keep the humidity up ( simply tape it for now w/ clear pkg tap)
Do everything possible to reduce their stress. It's not a good time to think they are comfortable to you !
Keep them in a quiet place / cover three sides of the enclosures/ provide complete darkness at night.

Temp:
The humidity is important ....but the temp more so. Keep the temp at the higher end of the recommendations! 
Chytrid fungus dose not like the high temps. When they are ill > they have a suppressed immune system > of which can lead to other illnesses  :Frown: 
Plus the temps are important to help them digest their food properly.

Food:
This is NOT a time that you should worry about over-feeding the frogs! Feed them _daily_! 
Just be sure the cricks are not HUGE, but on the smaller side as this will also help with digestion. 
ie crickets heads and cricket limbs do not digest completely. So the small those body parts are the better. 
Plus 3 smaller cricks w/ supps are better than 1 big one  :Smile: 

Another idea...If you were to get 4 --10 gallon tanks....you could do a switch form dirty to clean easily.
( I actually do this for my cricket bins) each 10 gal tank is small to clean either outside/in the shower/or bathtub.)
Every day clean - fill with - water/a cupful of bleach/ and let it sit for a few minutes.
Rinse, rinse, rinse in water w' *plenty* of de-chlorinater > reuse
If I had to do this for 2 frogs --- I wold definitely approach it this way. 
The cleaning is very important otherwise you are constantly  re-exposing them to the bugs  :Frown: 
Hang in there this is an exhausting process !!!!
You want to keep their area 'like a lab'. CLEAN ! 
Whites are a wonderful species that will be with you for a long time!

Do you bowl feed?  its a great way to monitor food intake- I suggest using a glass bowl.
http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...eder-bowl.html

*You can do 2 important tests yourself.  Info is below !
Testing:
Here is the information re the 2 tests:
RAL - Test : Reptile
1) Ranavirus-swab/feces
2)Chytrid Fungus (B. dendorobatidis)-swab*

here is their form:
http://www.vetdna.com/application/fo...issionform.pdf

You know about Dr Frye --- right ? He has help me immensely ! 
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html

Review QT
http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...uarantine.html

Sorry to blab
I could go on ---- please keep the questions coming !!!!! 
There are a lot of experienced members here that have had to do just this! 



 :Butterfly:

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Lija

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## Michael

> Michael,
> It's really best to wait for the fecal test result.
> You don't want to treat and then find out it's something else!
> Plus, they may be on medication for a long time. Why give them something they don't need.


Right. I am getting the fecal test done today. I have not medicated them until I have results.




> For now I would keep them in QT and separated.
> QT for illness is different than QT for 2 newly acquired frogs ( that could be QT'd together)
> Concentrate on daily cleaning when they are sleeping so it will reduce the stress of being moved/handled.
> Use disposable gloves between each tank !!!!!!!! Keep good habits of getting the  paper towels and gloves OUT to the garbage can!
> Don't worry about how long they are in QT .
> I would purchase 2 ---10 gallon aquariums w screen lids. 
> Add pleixi or glass to the screen lid to help keep the humidity up ( simply tape it for now w/ clear pkg tap)
> Do everything possible to reduce their stress. It's not a good time to think they are comfortable to you !
> Keep them in a quiet place / cover three sides of the enclosures/ provide complete darkness at night.


They are currently in two 10 gallons, I've placed tape on 3 sides to minimize stress. I've been keeping good hygiene between the two tanks as you've stated.




> Temp:
> The humidity is important ....but the temp more so. Keep the temp at the higher end of the recommendations! 
> Chytrid fungus dose not like the high temps. When they are ill > they have a suppressed immune system > of which can lead to other illnesses 
> Plus the temps are important to help them digest their food properly.


Are we sure we are dealing with Chytrid here? I am trying to keep them as warm as possible, each frog has a heat lamp on their tank right now.




> Food:
> This is NOT a time that you should worry about over-feeding the frogs! Feed them _daily_! 
> Just be sure the cricks are not HUGE, but on the smaller side as this will also help with digestion. 
> ie crickets heads and cricket limbs do not digest completely. So the small those body parts are the better. 
> Plus 3 smaller cricks w/ supps are better than 1 big one


I've been feeding daily for as long as the frogs will eat. I can usually get them to eat 4-5 crickets per day. I try to see if they will eat an earthworm now and then but they will not.




> Another idea...If you were to get 4 --10 gallon tanks....you could do a switch form dirty to clean easily.
> ( I actually do this for my cricket bins) each 10 gal tank is small to clean either outside/in the shower/or bathtub.)
> Every day clean - fill with - water/a cupful of bleach/ and let it sit for a few minutes.
> Rinse, rinse, rinse in water w' *plenty* of de-chlorinater > reuse
> If I had to do this for 2 frogs --- I wold definitely approach it this way. 
> The cleaning is very important otherwise you are constantly  re-exposing them to the bugs 
> Hang in there this is an exhausting process !!!!
> You want to keep their area 'like a lab'. CLEAN ! 
> Whites are a wonderful species that will be with you for a long time!


I've been replacing the paper towel and water bowel daily (they've only been in a QT setup for a day now). I've been removing feces daily and wiping the tanks down, I've not been using bleach though. I can start doing this though. I will see if I can get additional 10 gallons, they're fairly inexpensive.




> Do you bowl feed?  its a great way to monitor food intake- I suggest using a glass bowl.
> http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...eder-bowl.html


*



			
				You can do 2 important tests yourself.  Info is below !
Testing:
Here is the information re the 2 tests:
RAL - Test : Reptile
1) Ranavirus-swab/feces
2)Chytrid Fungus (B. dendorobatidis)-swab
			
		

*


> here is their form:
> http://www.vetdna.com/application/fo...issionform.pdf
> 
> You know about Dr Frye --- right ? He has help me immensely ! 
> http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html
> 
> Review QT
> http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...uarantine.html
> 
> ...


Thank you for the info I will check it out. I did email Dr. Frye, just waiting on a response. I found a vet to to a fecal exam locally so I was going to drop that off before work.

Does this appear to be Chytrid though? I've been reading on Chytrid treatments and Lamisil appears to have no real side effects.

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## bill

Wow, you have Gail, Lynn and Lija helping you out? You have the best of the best here bud. Your frogs are going to be fine. And no, it doesn't sound like chytrid to me. But I'm just a builder. They're the frog nurses  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Heather

Hi guys, just catching up. I'd have to agree...it sounds like a parasite. The fecal exam is your best bet. A vet can prescribe Metronidizole, Panacur, or Ivermectin or a combo of Metro and Panacur or Ivermectin. It usually works very well. 

I will follow along as well.

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## Michael

Thanks guys I appreciate all the help! I hope to have these frogs back to being healthy as soon as the vet performs the fecal exam and prescribes medicine.

Both frogs seem to be doing well in their QT set ups, both are actually eating but just not a whole lot unfortunately. They seem to lose interest after a few crickets. I am going to see if I can acquire a fattier feeder like waxworms or butterworms to get some weight back on them.

As soon as I get a chance I am going to work on completely breaking down their main enclosure and bleaching it clean. I am going to 'bake' all the driftwood and dip the plants in a 10% bleach solution as Bill suggested and then completely change out the substrate.

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## Lija

Lynn - that lab you gave link for, do they work with owners directly? Wow, that is awesome!
 Michael, dont worry about how much they eat, they eat and that is good!

as for lamisil - i never would treat somebody for something unless that something is present. No matter how harmless meds can be, for a tiny and sensitive for everything frog, it will be a stress for its body and it will affect one way and another. Meds should be treated with caution, always! It is not chytrid for sure. The only reason i mentioned it as testing should be usual quarantine procedure. Some frogs can be carriers, meaning they have it, spread it but are not sick themselves, if such a frog gets into household with more animals it can do lots of trouble, so it is something i always do along with fecal testing during quarantine period.

 Ivomectin ( ivomec) is the only one that is water soluble and can be absorbed through skin, but it doesnt work for protozoa and is very toxic. I'm using it for my peacocks now. Usual concentration that stuff is distributed doesnt work for frogs. I had the lab to dilute it to lower by probably 1000x concentration, then calculated dose for each frog according to their weight ( up to 0,01g). For that reason i would never recommend to use this drug at home, only at vet clinic under supervision. Unless you are Lynn  :Smile: 

 another thing to watch if using ivomec for wc whites, it works well and systemically. If you have massive parasite invasion including intermittent forms of tapeworms that is common for WC whites, it is very dangerous to get rid of them all at once with ivomec. 

 Michael that all above is FIY only, it doesnt apply to your frogs  :Smile:

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## Michael

I see. I only do kind of worry about Chytrid because I also keep African Clawed Frogs which of course are known for being Chytrid carriers. I do not use any equipment between the two, the driftwood I did use did come from the ACF tank.. but it had dried out for close to a year on my porch in the sun.. so I figured this was not a concern.

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## Heather

Have you ever tested your ACF's?

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## Michael

> Have you ever tested your ACF's?


I have not, I own 4 ACF. I've had them for about two years and I've never had an issue with them. (of course they do not show any negative effects of chytrid)

That being said, besides a peice of wood that literally did sit out and dry in the sun for a year, nothing was cross contaminated. I don't believe Chytrid can survive being dried out for that long.

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## Lija

Look why dont you test just for knowing sake. You can do just one, if one has it everyone will.

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## Michael

Quick update.. still waiting on fecal test so I can get meds.

What do you guys think about the thin frog? He seems to be putting on a little weight.



I am having a hard time getting them to eat waxworms, they just don't move around enough. Crickets seem to be favored but they still are not eating all that much but I do try to feed them daily if they will eat.

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## Lija

It looks pretty good to me  :Smile:  hey dont worry about how much they eat, they eat as much as they can fit at the moment.

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## bill

He definitely is looking better. He's up on his front legs, which is a good sign. 

Like Lija said, as long as he's eating something, that's great!


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Michael

Still waiting on the fecal exam results, I called the vet and they had to send the results to a Zoologist. They just didn't find anything they said, but they admitted they just aren't sure how to identify frog parasites. They did find larvae but they could not identify it.. if this goes no where I am going to just ship feces to Dr Frye..

I told them I know the chubby frog has a protozoan infestation (smelly poo) and I'm not sure which results had the larvae.. anyways long story short, still waiting..

My skinny frog is not eating at all. He may eat one cricket a day if I am lucky, one is better than nothing. I'm dusting them of course.

I've been using the 'glass bowl trick' to keep waxworms and crickets in his enclosure at night, but none have been eaten. I try tongs at night to see if he'll eat, he may eat one.

I don't think he has moved from where he is in the last 24 hours, I check him daily, his weight is okay. He is way thinner than he should be but I don't think he is in danger, yet.

The chubby guy is doing great besides having smelly poop.. I actually had to block his vision of the other frogs QT enclosure because he keeps trying to eat crickets through the glass..

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## Lija

Oh my god.... Can you ask them for a pic and send it to me, that is ridiculous, seriously, zoologist? There are pics all over VIN of parasites if they never dealt with frog before... 
 I mean how long are they doing this test?  The test itself probably took them an hour all together, including time needed to take microscope  out of storage room and clean every single part of it lol everything else is plain dragging time. 
Anyhow, pm me if needed, im not around here  much for a few days

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## Michael

Alright. I get the feeling this is going to cost me way more than what Dr. Frye would have charged, which from his email is not much at all. I think regardless and to just expedite this situation, when the frogs poop again I am mailing it to Dr. Frye -- this is taking too long and every day my frog is getting a little worse.

I'm actually a little surprised at this point. Their website stated they did deal with reptiles, I would wager the parasites of a lizard or snake vs a frog wouldn't be completely alien to them.

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## Lynn

> Alright. I get the feeling this is going to cost me way more than what Dr. Frye would have charged, which from his email is not much at all. I think regardless and to just expedite this situation, when the frogs poop again I am mailing it to Dr. Frye -- this is taking too long and every day my frog is getting a little worse.
> 
> I'm actually a little surprised at this point. Their website stated they did deal with reptiles, I would wager the parasites of a lizard or snake vs a frog wouldn't be completely alien to them.


I think this is a good idea.

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## Heather

Yes, that is a bit ridiculous. I'd just send one to Dr. Frye. He'll help you much sooner.

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## Michael

> Yes, that is a bit ridiculous. Is just send one to Dr. Frye. He'll help you much sooner.


Going to check the QT tank tonight for poop and mail it off. I don't think I can get 3-5 samples from this frog. He is hardly eating though he has access to crickets and waxworms he simply will not eat either. Hopefully I will find some feces tonight to mail off. Poop from the other frog should not be a problem. I am finding at least one a day.

I worry he may be declining faster than anticipated. I am keeping them fairly warm, mid 80s, not sure what more I can do without meds.

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## Lynn

Michael do you know when .......  was the last time he ate?
Did I read "one cricket a day" ?

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## Michael

> Michael do you know when .......  was the last time he ate?
> Did I read "one cricket a day" ?


He last ate yesterday, a single cricket. He has maybe eaten 4 crickets in 3 days, I've tried waxworms but he did eat maybe 2 of them so far but not recently. He does not like to take food from the tongs, if I take everything out of the enclosure he may hunt them down, but his interest in food has dramatically dwindled since I purchased him a few weeks ago. Tried to feed tonight, he has no interest in food, period.

There are no feces in his enclosure tonight so I have nothing to send Dr Frye tomorrow, unless something happens tonight.

I am really worried now, if he stops eating and there are no feces to test and I cannot get medication then he may be in serious trouble. The local vet was supposed to email me tonight test results from whomever they gave the test to, they never emailed me back.

I don't want to be an alarmist but it does not look good.

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## Michael

Both frogs left me a present this morning, I have shipped these to Dr Frye. Hurray!

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## bill

Yay! Did you ever think you'd be happy to find poo? Lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Michael

> Yay! Did you ever think you'd be happy to find poo? Lol
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


I was actually pretty happy to see that poop. Hopefully Dr. Frye can work with 1 sample from each frog, luckily I can ship stuff from my work so I should have it there by Thursday.

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## Lija

Nothing can beat excitement of finding a poop! Only frog people can understand that though lol

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## chibikaie

Hey, I am always thrilled to find poop, no matter the species! It means: the animal is eating, digestive system has not shut down, I can now run a fecal test if I need one, and I can evaluate the state of the poop to as a proxy for animal health.

... Well, I kind of work with a lot of poop, from a lot of different animals. Still! It's not just frogs, I promise you.

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## Michael

Still can't get Mr Skinny to eat.. is there anything I can do to boost him up a bit until I get medicine? Maybe a Pedialyte bath? I assume when I do get medicine I will need to feed it to him, so I am hoping I can somehow rouse his appetite to at least take medication orally.

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## Lija

Mr skinny would be happy to be left alone for little longer, you can use reptiboost, force feed if needs to, but really im sure if he be left alone for a few more days he might be eating on its own. Give it a try. Sometimes the best we can do for them is nothing.  :Smile:

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## bill

^^^^+++++++1


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Michael

Alright. I try to get him to eat when I get home and clean his enclosure. I leave him crickets in a glass bowl, sadly none have been eaten. I am going to leave him alone until medicine arrives. Just replace the paper towels daily and nothing else.

The other guy is getting pretty darn fat.. He is going back to 3 feedings a week.

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## Heather

How does he look? Does he look as if he's losing weight?

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## Michael

> How does he look? Does he look as if he's losing weight?


I think a picture may be better. I'm not sure what's going on with his coloration, he sandwiched himself in the snake plant, he has not been blotchy like this until basically just now when I checked him. He was green when I cleaned his QT tank and replaced his paper towels. He looks very thin to me, so I am a little worried.

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## Lija

He is skinny, but not to the point to worry just yet.  Wait for meds, give them, wait. Have you tried not to do glass bowl thing, but just to throw some crickets in the enclosure?

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## Michael

> He is skinny, but not to the point to worry just yet.  Wait for meds, give them, wait. Have you tried not to do glass bowl thing, but just to throw some crickets in the enclosure?


I've tried some free roamers and he is not bothering with them.

If I did not move him when I was cleaning out the enclosure at night to replace paper towels, ect, I do not think this frog would move at all.

He seems alert when I (am forced) to handle him. However once he is back in the enclosure he is right back to his favorite spot again. Since he's clung to the wall of the tank right now I am going to try to just replace paper towel without disturbing him at all.

I am replacing his water bowl daily too with treated tap, but he is not soaking at all either. I don't know if that is a bad sign or not. I do mist a lot and keep the humidity around 60%, I am keeping temps very high 86F in the day and 78F at night.

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## Lija

Im pretty sure he is just trying to tell you to leave him alone  :Smile:

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## Michael

Alright. I am trying my best not to handle or disturb him. You know how it is though some times they get themselves in a spot and you have to move them so you can clean everything out and keep it sanitary.

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## Heather

You can try the 1:10 plain, clear Pedialyte to dechlorinated or distilled water mix.? If you don't want to move him into his water bowl, you can use a dropper and gently allow a few drops to fall onto him every few minutes or so for up to 15-20 minutes. It will give him a few vital electrolytes. Or you can gently set him into the water bowl for 15 minutes. Then rinse out his bowl and refill with fresh dechlorinated water. The water should be around 80'F, not cold and not hot.

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## Michael

> You can try the 1:10 plain, clear Pedialyte to dechlorinated or distilled water mix.? If you don't want to move him into his water bowl, you can use a dropper and gently allow a few drops to fall onto him every few minutes or so for up to 15-20 minutes. It will give him a few vital electrolytes. Or you can gently set him into the water bowl for 15 minutes. Then rinse out his bowl and refill with fresh dechlorinated water. The water should be around 80'F, not cold and not hot.


Thank you for the tip. Unless it's 100% necessary to do the pedialyte bath I am just going to hold off for right now. I checked UPS tracking and Dr. Frye has received my sample so I am hoping to hear back today or tomorrow.

Update: Dr. Frye is awesome and already contacted me so, I should find out soon what is up! I sent him the samples separate but I asked him to run them together because if they came from the pet store together and were housed together.. I assume they should be both treated for the same thing.

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## Michael

Guys.. just an update. I spoke with Dr. Frye and these two Whites have the heaviest load of parasites he has ever seen in 10+ years. These frogs are very sick.. in Dr. Frye's words, they have "thousands of highly mobile ciliated protozoa and many hundred lung worms". Hopefully once the medicine arrives I can get these poor guys back to good health...

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## Lynn

OMG !!! Michael 
Thanks goodness you sent the fecal !
They will get the right meds !
Gosh knows where they get this stuff  

Feed them well !
I'm looking forward to hearing good news !

Keep things scrupulously clean ! 

 :Butterfly:

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## Michael

He's going to send me Panacur and Metronidizole; I asked for express delivery, it cost a lot more but I think this may be a time sensitive issue!

I think these are wild caught WTF.. idk how captive bred could have such a heavy parasite load.

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## Heather

Thank goodness for Dr. Frye. There is still hope.

Have a Tupperware to put frogs in while cleaning the tank. Clean with nice hot water each day and paper towels. Lynn even wipes the tank out with Metro sometimes. I've done a Panacur tank wipe down in the past also. Be careful not to add cold items to the tank after a hot cleaning... the glass can crack if it contracts to quickly. 

I'm so glad to hear you finally have an answer.

Good luck!

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## Lija

My like to your post before wasnt because i like the results but the fact that now you know and you have meds coming. 

 Did he explain you how to quarantine them? Both separately with complete full disinfection of everything inside every day until you get clean fecal ( hopefully 3 weeks after start of treatment).
 What is your treatment protocol?

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## Lija

> Thank goodness for Dr. Frye. !


my thoughts exactly!

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## Michael

> My like to your post before wasnt because i like the results but the fact that now you know and you have meds coming. 
> 
>  Did he explain you how to quarantine them? Both separately with complete full disinfection of everything inside every day until you get clean fecal ( hopefully 3 weeks after start of treatment).
>  What is your treatment protocol?


He said instructions are coming with the medication, I hope I have them by Monday. It could be here by tomorrow with luck.

My plan unless noted otherwise is to be cleaning out these enclosures with a bleach solution every night. I am going to pick up two more 10 gallons so I can easily swap the frogs from one enclosure to the other as was recommended previously. I do not want my frogs to get infested again. After 2-3 weeks I am going to send another fecal exam to Dr. Frye, if they are in the clear I will add them back to their main enclosure, which has been broken down and will be bleached out entirely and have all substrate changed, clean all the decor, dip the plants in a bleach solution, ect..

This has been kind of a nightmare! I don't want to relive it.

I have the house to myself this weekend, sounds like I will be busy after writing all that!!

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## Heather

Don't forget the dechlorinator after, of course  :Wink: .

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## Lynn

Michael, how's it going ?

I'm so sorry for all the trouble you're having.
It's just terrible when they are sick.

Keep us posted

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## Michael

> Michael, how's it going ?
> 
> I'm so sorry for all the trouble you're having.
> It's just terrible when they are sick.
> 
> Keep us posted


Hey thanks for checking up. Unfortunately the medication did not come today, I am hoping it comes tomorrow.

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## Paul

I am late on this. Wow so glad you sent the fecal samples! Hopefully the meds arrive tomorrow so you can get your frogs better and get this nightmare behind you! Please keep us updated. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## chibikaie

I hope that you are able to treat them and they pull through. I just discovered that my frog (and/or his enclosure) has some worms, so I will be joining you in the cleaning and deworming.

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## Michael

> I hope that you are able to treat them and they pull through. I just discovered that my frog (and/or his enclosure) has some worms, so I will be joining you in the cleaning and deworming.


Ugh it's no fun.. I am hoping I can administer Panacur by dissolving it in water and dropping it on my frogs backs, the appetites are just not there any more (though I think one frog was sneaky and just ate a cricket lol).

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## Lija

Michael, dont do it! Panacur is not soluble in water and if you try to drop on the back nothing will happen it wont be absorbed. You will need to force feed or try cricket thing.

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## Michael

> Michael, dont do it! Panacur is not soluble in water and if you try to drop on the back nothing will happen it wont be absorbed. You will need to force feed or try cricket thing.


Oh, I was reading that people were doing that, I did not realize it doesn't work. I will have to force feed then. I don't have the meds or instructions from Dr. Frye yet regardless.

Out of curiosity, is this article out of date now? http://www.frogforum.net/care-articl...aid-print.html

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## Lija

No panacur is the same as for dogs/cats/ people. It works in intestines but is not getting absorbed in a blood stream.

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## Lija

> Oh, I was reading that people were doing that, I did not realize it doesn't work. I will have to force feed then. I don't have the meds or instructions from Dr. Frye yet regardless.
> 
> Out of curiosity, is this article out of date now? http://www.frogforum.net/care-articl...aid-print.html


 I havent read the whole thing yet, but til panacur it is correct including panacur itself.  Need to read it properly, it is written 4y ago, some things have changed since then but not by much.

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## Michael

I see. I have to be honest I was hoping to use the drop method until he was eating again. The other frog will be no issue, he eats non stop.

My skinny/non eating frog looks a little better today, he actually snuck and ate a cricket when I was cleaning out his enclosure tonight. He seems to be a trooper.

Sadly he just won't take the tongs. I'm going to have to look at YouTube videos on force feeding Whites. I do worry since Dr. Frye said that the lung worm infestation was pretty bad, if too many worms dying too fast could cause septic shock, I assume he will address this in his instructions. I'm guessing once the panacur is in his system the appetite will return.

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## Lija

Strongyloides are not too bad, it will be fine. Im sure you will get detailed instructions with your meds. You just really keep everything clean, not fun  :Frown:  but hey, the worst of over, you know what you are treating, you have meds on their way.

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## Michael

Medicine arrived. Each frog ate a cricket dusted with Panacur and received 4 drops of Metronidazole on their backs as Dr. Frye prescribed. I really lucked out, the non-eating frog by some miracle decided to eat (eventually -- i left him in a tupperware container with a dusted cricket for a few minutes alone) today so I didn't have to force feed him a dusted cricket, I am hoping the Metron kicks in and he will just take the next round of dusted crickets without needing to be forced.

So my only real question at this point is the instructions say to feed weekly dusted crickets to the frog to administer the Panacur, does this mean they should eat several dusted crickets or will one cricket dusted suffice to start? My gut is telling me to start slow, since at least one frog is heavily infested with lung worms having a mass die off may kill the frog... right?

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## Lija

No, not from these worms, it is ok to kill them all, it is not going to happen anyway, did you get a one time doses separately?
You should have, if not call him for clarification.

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## Michael

> No, not from these worms, it is ok to kill them all, it is not going to happen anyway, did you get a one time doses separately?
> You should have, if not call him for clarification.


What do you mean by one time doses separately?

What I received exactly was an IV bag of Metronidazole with a syringe + bottle to drop the medicine on their back. Instructions are to drop 4 drops on each frog daily for 10-14 days.

The Panacur came in a pouch with instruction to dust insects once a week for at least four weeks.

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## Lija

Oh that is what you meant..... Hm....  Metro - it is correct, but panacur.... I dpnt like dusting with meds in general, bc you dont know how much of actual meds gets into a frog, but it is definitely less stressful then force feeding. I guess that is why the directions were once a week for 4 weeks.... different way of doing same thing. Carry on with how you were directed. When do you need to send control fecal sample?

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## Lynn

> Medicine arrived. Each frog ate a cricket dusted with Panacur and received 4 drops of Metronidazole on their backs as Dr. Frye prescribed. I really lucked out, the non-eating frog by some miracle decided to eat (eventually -- i left him in a tupperware container with a dusted cricket for a few minutes alone) today so I didn't have to force feed him a dusted cricket, I am hoping the Metron kicks in and he will just take the next round of dusted crickets without needing to be forced.
> 
> So my only real question at this point is the instructions say to feed weekly dusted crickets to the frog to administer the Panacur, does this mean they should eat several dusted crickets or will one cricket dusted suffice to start? My gut is telling me to start slow, since at least one frog is heavily infested with lung worms having a mass die off may kill the frog... right?



Michael ,
Dust their REGULAR feeding once a week for 4 weeks.
Hearing that they are very 'infested' , you might consider repeating the Panacur again tonight w/ a regular feeding.
This is especially important if the "dust' was not covering the cricket enough?

If you have a mortar and pestle--- grind it really fine first > then dust

You need to bang the intestinal bugs....
The reason it is done for 4 weeks in a row is so that you minimize the risk of re-infestation.

Speak to Dr Frye about the 'mass die off' concept??? I don't know about that?
As Lija mentions, a 2nd fecal needs to be sent. 
? 2 weeks after treatment----check w Dr Frye on this as well

This is such an ordeal ! Sorry , Michael
I have been there....I completely understand what you are going through.

You could email Dr Frye - now....... about all of this
He has been kind enough to answer me on a Sunday

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## Michael

Hey guys. I am going to send a fecal sample to Dr. Frye 2 weeks after their treatment, is they get the green light they are going back to their vivarium.

The Panacur I received was a pretty fine dust I would say it's pretty similar to my calcium dust, the cricket that they are certainly looked dusted but I can see if I can grind it up further.

I will see if the frogs feel like eating tonight, I know the one frog I have that is in better shape is more receptive to eating right now. The other one, I can try. I think the Metron may perk him up enough to eat, since it's an appetite stimulant.

This whole thing has been a total bummer but it's looking like things are getting better.

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## Heather

Yes, I agree. See if they will eat at least another one or two dusted crickets tonight. How long are they (measured) from nose to anus (snout to vent)?

I would wait until the full Panacut and Metronidizole treatments are done, with a follow-up clean fecal test after before returning them to their homes.

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## chibikaie

You're on the right track for sure.

It is true that very heavily infested animals, when treated for parasites, can sometimes have problems when the parasites die off in large numbers. The veterinarian is right to be concerned, and to make his concerns known to you.  If he didn't, and they did not make it, you might be surprised and angry that he didn't discuss the possibility with you. Your best course of action is still to treat as he advised. You can't ignore the parasites, just watch carefully and provide as much supportive care as possible with as little stress as possible.

While dusting is not the most accurate way to dispense medication, your biggest concern is more that they may be underdosed, not so much overdosed. This is one of the safer drugs for deworming; in many species, you can give double and quadruple the usual dose with no side effects (my vet and I went all the way up to six times in camels). And of course we don't want to stress the frog by force feeding.

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## Lynn

Michael,
I just wanted to remind you about cleaning.
I'm sure you have heard this a thousand times
But you want to keep moving them to clean quarters (even daily if possible) ; to reduce the possibility of re-infestation.

 :Butterfly:

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## Michael

> Michael,
> I just wanted to remind you about cleaning.
> I'm sure you have heard this a thousand times
> But you want to keep moving them to clean quarters (even daily if possible) ; to reduce the possibility of re-infestation.


What I have been doing nightly is removing the frogs in to a tupperware container, taking the tanks and putting them in the shower under HOT water and spray some 5% bleach solution in. I rinse it out very very well of course and then place fresh paper towel back in.

Today I was able to rebuilt their vivarium, so when they get a clean bill of health they'll have a nice home to return to!

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## Michael

> Yes, I agree. See if they will eat at least another one or two dusted crickets tonight. How long are they (measured) from nose to anus (snout to vent)?
> 
> I would wait until the full Panacut and Metronidizole treatments are done, with a follow-up clean fecal test after before returning them to their homes.


The frogs are 3.5 & 3 inches snout to vent.

I was able to feed the smaller frog another cricket dusted with panacur but the other guy, he just won't eat. I tried to force feed but I couldn't get his mouth open with a credit card, also my fiancé isn't exactly fond of crickets so doing this solo was basically impossible for me and I feel like I am stressing out the frog.

I know it was said panacur dissolved in water doesn't work but I tried it anyways because I am not sure how else to deliver medicine to this frog. He did eat one dusted cricket with panacur and I'm treating him with metron so hopefully his appetite will come back so I can get panacur into his system more reliably.

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## Heather

This is an old video. It might help.

http://youtu.be/sJbEu0xNsBU

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## Michael

I will check it out when I get home tonight.

I tried to place a dusted waxworm (since they don't jump around like crickets) on a credit card and get it in my frogs mouth. I can get his mouth open but not fast enough to get the waxworm in. He seemed to get really stressed out so I decided to not continue.

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## Michael

Ah, good news. I was able to take a cricket, dip it in some decholorinated tap and then get a healthy amount of Panacur on it. I placed my Whites Tree Frog in a tupperware container inside his enclosure with the cricket and he ate it. I would say that will be enough Panacur for the week, hopefully the appetite will come back. I am going to leave some more crickets in a tupperware container in his enclosure so he will hopefully eat, poop, and release some nasty dead lungworms finally.

Poor frog is so stressed, I am so happy I did not have to force feed him. Every time I have to move him he is releasing water/urine, which is a defensive move from stress I am pretty sure.

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## Michael

What a turn around, it's only been a few days and the frogs are both doing very well.

My frog that is fighting the lungworm infestation has done a total 180, he is not eating a lot but I am able to get him to eat 3-4 dusted crickets now when before he was only eating 1 cricket every three days. 

He has put a little more weight on, he is active at night now when he was sleeping for days at a time before. He still has three weeks of medication to go but things really are improving very quickly.

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## Paul

Great News!!

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## Amy

How are things going, Michael?

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## Michael

> How are things going, Michael?


Everything is going great. The frog that had smelly poop no longer has smelly poop, so the protozoan infection has cleared up. He is looking very good and is getting pretty fat. I am not feeding him daily any longer. They have 3 more metronidazole treatments per Dr. Frye then I will be stopping that medication. 

Both frogs are eating normally but the one that was not eating is still very shy, he will not tong feed but if I leave him in tupperware (I place this in the enclosure) with 4-5 crickets. He will eat them all once I walk away and let him eat at his own pace. He is being fed daily, 4-5 crickets starting to put on weight on, he is looking very good. He has done a total 180, I really thought he was going to die. 

So two more weeks of panacur, three more days of metronidazole then send in a fecal sample for Dr. Frye. Assuming that checks out they get to go home to their main enclosure.

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## Paul

Awesome! So glad they are doing better!

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## Amy

That is great!!  Must be such a relief.

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## Michael

Small update.

The metronidazole treatments are done, so that is one medication out of the way, Dr Frye said 10-14 days, the frogs are doing very well so I will stop at 12. No more foul poops in days so I think we're safe on that front.

I found a moth in my house.. pretty sure it's the waxmoth pupae I left on my window sill a few weeks ago, turned in to a waxmoth and became food lol.. I do wonder, wild moths, yay or nay? I turn on my porch light and it's moth city right now. I'm in farm country but not really close to a corn field where my house is. I've never fed wild insects to my frogs nor am I in any rush to but I just wonder what a moth could possibly carry that could harm a WTF?

I actually got one of my frogs to eat a nightcrawler, kind of cool because I consider earthworms a top tier feeder and I know WTF tend not to go for worms. My "trick" to do it? Cut it in half, worms wriggling in agony seem to get them to move around enough to get WTFs attention.

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## Lija

Wonderful news Michael! Can only imagine how happy you are.

 I wouldn't be feeding anything from outside, just in case, i kinda think you've had enough stress already  :Smile:

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## Amy

Agree with Lija.  I used to feed my Greys wild caught insects, but after several months of winter on captive bred insects, I've always been afraid to go back to wild caught.  I'm afraid they will no longer have the immunities to fight off anything wc insects might bring in.

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## Michael

Yeah I was just wondering if anyone did feed wild moths. My garden is 100% free of pesticides, herbicides, insecticides, I have a lot of worms and sowbugs but I do not feed them to my frogs. think I may start breeding waxworms to get more waxmoths, the moths seemed to really excite my frog when I fed it.

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