# Frogs & Toads > Fire Belly Toads (Bombina) >  fire belly toads dying

## lizarddude

hey guys. i have had 4 different fire bellies at different times. i usually buy them in pairs from the same place and house them together. about a year ago one of my last pair died, and i have one left. recently this one has gotten very skinny, its legs are skinny and i can see an outline on his back of the chest i guess, with the rest of the stuff kinda hanging off. this has happened to every single toad i have had. i feed them crickets, with coco husk soil, a 50/50 water land setup, a bridge in the water and a heater. i also have a floresent light on top with uvb. is there anything i am doing wrong?

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## Sherry

Are you using coco husk or coco fiber? Coco husk can cause impaction if the toads accidentally ingest some while feeding.  Are you gut loading and dusting the crickets with vitamins and calcium? Is the water dechlorinated? What are your temps? Can you post pics of the toad and the tank?

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## MantisMan

could be many things
make sure the light isnt too strong, and that they are being kept between 66 and 74 degrees, i dont think the heater is needed
be sure they r moist enough but do not use tap water
be sure the daylight photoperiod is at least 13 hours
he could've swallowed the coco husk chunks, he could be getting old, or u could be buying from a bad dealer who sells sick, parasitized wild caughts
i breed these guys so if they spawn again do u want me to send u firebelly toad tadpoles or toadlets next year??

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## lizarddude

it is eco earth, so its like little granuals of coconut husk. we gut load the crickets with the powder food stuff and calcium jell, but do not dust. the water is dechlorinated. the water heater is the only source of heat and the water is about 65 or 70 degrees. i will check it tommorow with the temperature probe. i will also upload pictures tommorow

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## MantisMan

ok i would just use good old spaghmum moss or peat moss over gravel or a completely aquatic setup with a log or rock for land
and i would use a lamp for heat, remove the water heater
get a lamp of some sort and put it over the tank with a 40 or 60 watt bulb
they will be much happier that way

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## lizarddude

what about the problem with the crickets going into the spaghnum? also i only have one now. one of them died from swallowing a small stone so i switched to coco fiber, and then this one was fine for a while but then he started deteriorating

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## FriedrichsFrogs

_Alex made a good point about where your buying from. The tank setup could be tweaked but just to be absolutely sure i would change your FBT source, thats just too odd that all of your guys r dying off shortly after being purchased._

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## lizarddude

they arent dying off shortly after being purchased though. its been about a year and a half since i got this one

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## FriedrichsFrogs

_oohhh...well in that case a tank tweak might suffice_

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## Hoppity100

I just found your post and wanted to share: my FB's have eco earth fiber substrate, my package does not use the word "husk" so I presume the kind I have is ok? Mine says "reptile" and shows pictures of other amphibians plus frogs.  This was the only choice at the store and I did not know of one called husk. Our stores do not sell the live moss, is there a substitute for moss? I have some strands of live plants for them to crawl on when they're in water. I have 60 land/40 water. I also read frogs don't need heat but most sources say they like it warm and humid. I have the smallest submersible heater so my water is 75-76 degrees and they must like it, they do spend alot of time in water. We also go thru winter here, all the more reason to keep them toasty with some himidity. So, lizarddude: sounds like your tank needs adjustment: I use eco earth fiber reptile substrate, but I am assuming the type you have with husk means yours has bigger chunks or shreds? I bought this because our darn stores don't sell live moss. If anyone thinks of a substitute for moss besides eco earth fiber, please let me know.  For you: how close is your light to the frogs? Can you try a different light other than uv? Maybe there's more radiation. I have a lamp next to my tank with 25 w bulb and my water is heated. Mine eat crickets and worms. Do you have another store to buy frogs from? I would try changing your light source. Can you write and let me know if you made changes and if they helped? Thanks

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## kroberts009

SORRY EVERYONE COULDNT FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE A NEW POST, BUT HAD AN IMPORTANT QUESTION! slightly concerned, while feed my firebellies mealworms this evening.  one of them darted at my hand and picked up a piece of gravel instead. (a pink-purple rock) before i could take the piece out of its mouth, he swallowed it. from what i gathered from the part sticking out, it was roughly small-medium cricket sized. not much i can do at this point is there? if someone can respond ide appreciate them being sent to kroberts009@yahoo.com thank you!

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## Hoppity100

Did you try patting him on his back?

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## Hoppity100

With dogs you give them small amount H2O2 to induce vomiting,  can you try giving your frog a few drops with an eye dropper? I don't know if this will work for a frog but t works on my dog. Let me know how your frog is please.

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## kroberts009

> With dogs you give them small amount H2O2 to induce vomiting, can you try giving your frog a few drops with an eye dropper? I don't know if this will work for a frog but t works on my dog. Let me know how your frog is please.



he is currently sitting at the side of his enclosure like normal. however, its been about an hour since i fed him and he still hasnt eaten the two meal worms i provided him with. he is in his enclosure alone, therefore i know for a fact he hasnt eaten them. i am in fact pretty concerned, because its an extrememly misfortunate situation. going to continue doing some research. the hydrogen peroxide is the best theory or idea i have at the moment, but i wasnt aware that frogs could vomit? going to do some research on this first, and probably put in a few calls to my petstore

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## MantisMan

if u can gently pick him up and rub his belly to feel for the stone, u might be able to push it up and make him regurgitate it
otherwise, bring him to a vet and remove the mealworms, they r bad food for them anyways

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## kroberts009

thank you for the prompt response. i will see if i can gently feel the stone in there. hopefully he will regurgitate it. i had no idea meal worms were bad for them. thank you for the information. really concerned and hopefull that things work out ok.

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## kroberts009

couldnt feel a rock in there.... but he did decide he was hungry enough to eat his worms (he ate them before i got there) so going to carefully monitor over the next few days, and PRAY we get through this... making a trip to the petstore, and removing the rocks as soon as possible!

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## Hoppity100

Okay, only other thing would be a laxative and if there is an obstruction, the laxative may not work depending on location of obstruction. Do you have peroxide? Other problem is getting it into his mouth, you'd have to hold him and have someone open his mouth. Can you remove your gravel? Replace it with eco earth or live moss. Write when you find out what you can do for him, I hope he is alright.
'

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## kroberts009

i am going to head into the pet store tomorrow and purchase some new enclosure materials and get rid of the gravel. while researching it seems gravel swallowing is pretty common, i didnt know this. at least i know now, and can correct the problem. 

he has decided to eat, and his enclosure was cleaned this morning. so perhaps i will wait a little to do anything to see if i can find any feces in his tank. 

will let you know what ends up happening to him! 

thank you  very much everyone for your feedback! i really appreciate it!

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## Hoppity100

Oh thank you for letting me know, you're doing the right thing! Hope he keeps eating. Its ok if you write later to let me know how he is doing.

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## kroberts009

> Oh thank you for letting me know, you're doing the right thing! Hope he keeps eating. Its ok if you write later to let me know how he is doing.



so far so good, he ate this morning.. and weve moved on to no gravel, and replaced it with moss. hes still very active and exploring around his enclosure. hopefully things turn out alright. thanks for everyones assistance in the matter

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## Hoppity100

You're welcome! I'm glad everything is better.

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## kroberts009

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE! i now have a pink pebble on the floor of the enclousure (all had been removed previously) not sure which end the pebble came from... but hoping this means were through the difficult part!

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## Hoppity100

Hey, this is good news! Hope this was your answer. Glad you wrote.

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## MantisMan

was it pink when he swallowed it? if not it may be from blood
if he doesnt want to eat for a while it may mean the pebble scratched him inside and he's trying to heal his organs
i hope he recovers...

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## kroberts009

> was it pink when he swallowed it? if not it may be from blood
> if he doesnt want to eat for a while it may mean the pebble scratched him inside and he's trying to heal his organs
> i hope he recovers...


thanks for checking, the rock he swallowed was pink. still happily eating crickets. going to keep an eye on him for at least another week, before i can rest comfortably about being in the clear.

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## Hoppity100

I'm glad to know he is ok. Now if I could just get mine to like earthworms! They want crickets and the crickets are hard to keep and one ended up in my car. I don't know how he could have escaped the pet store bag.

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## kroberts009

> I'm glad to know he is ok. Now if I could just get mine to like earthworms! They want crickets and the crickets are hard to keep and one ended up in my car. I don't know how he could have escaped the pet store bag.


lol in your car is definitely a special treat! how do you keep your crickets? you know, i dont know if im "properly" keeping my crickets, but they seem to manage just fine and we have perfectly healthy frogs (other than rock mishaps =/ ). we will buy some and they last for weeks and weeks with few random deaths (other than by frog... lol) basically i went from one of those small storage tote containers to a tall plastic kitchen container (small crickets) and about a foot to a foot and a half tall container. with an open lid. just threw in the cardboard. for water, i wet paper towel balls every other day (they dry out faster in the open air container) and for food, i mix anything from cereal (oats types) to carrots to lol banana chips.. but i hear they are partial to parsley. and from what i gather, will eat just about anything they can... nothing quite like caring for the food that feeds your little friends  :Smile:

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## Hoppity100

Yeah, just think, I almost went thru an intersection because of it (laughing). Like an officer would believe me if I said I had a cricket in the car as he writes me a ticket! I keep mine in a good sized clear plastic tote, screen lid, by a lamp, had cotton balls that were wet, sprinkled oatmeal in bottom, put in small piece raw potato and small piece of apple. They had cardboard to hide in, but those little suckers died (not all, just a few out of 20). But, they were kept as I read about. Your idea sounds alot better! A tall wastebasket. If I thought mine wanted better food like tacos or spagetti, I would offer that LOL. But, most of them must have liked the food. I bought wax worms at the store, got home, they were all dead. Went back and exchanged them and when I bought them I asked if they were fresh (had no date) and was told they were. I should have known the young guy working may not know to check them? Now when I buy any worms, I open like 5 containers first. But, the frogs are cute friends!

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## kroberts009

> Yeah, just think, I almost went thru an intersection because of it (laughing). Like an officer would believe me if I said I had a cricket in the car as he writes me a ticket! I keep mine in a good sized clear plastic tote, screen lid, by a lamp, had cotton balls that were wet, sprinkled oatmeal in bottom, put in small piece raw potato and small piece of apple. They had cardboard to hide in, but those little suckers died (not all, just a few out of 20). But, they were kept as I read about. Your idea sounds alot better! A tall wastebasket. If I thought mine wanted better food like tacos or spagetti, I would offer that LOL. But, most of them must have liked the food. I bought wax worms at the store, got home, they were all dead. Went back and exchanged them and when I bought them I asked if they were fresh (had no date) and was told they were. I should have known the young guy working may not know to check them? Now when I buy any worms, I open like 5 containers first. But, the frogs are cute friends!


that doesnt surprise me about the worms... going to be heading into one of my local petsmarts over the weekend to see what else they have available. i always check the containers and make them get my crickets out of the large bin, with it being so hot out here every now and then all the crickets in the premade packages die, before purchased. i dont know if you shop at petsmart, but if you sign up online. they email me coupons for free crickets or discounts on worms like every two weeks! just an idea

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## Hoppity100

Oh, thanks for letting me know about email thru petsmart with coupons. I bought my FBT's there but the dead worms came from pet supplies plus. Same store that would not give their hamsters a wheel. I questioned them about this at least a year or so ago. Got all kinds of ridiculous excuses. Recently I noticed they have given hamsters each a wheel, but I had to wait over a year for this. I noticed wheels after I emailed them with my list of complaints. I must have gotten my point across! Didn't mean to get off topic, but I would always check worms, too, as I learned the first time I bought some. If I could just get my toads to try earthworms. They seem like everything else but earthworms. I've had a little trouble keeping crickets so I am hoping mine will eat assorted worms. Its unpleasant for me to have to cut a large earthworm and hope they eat it before it stops moving.

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## Hoppity100

I forgot to ask where you are located as you said it was hot. I'm between Ohio and Michigan, ok like on the border. It is Fall now with noticeable weather changes, wonder if we'll have snow this year, last year was a warm, dry winter. I still have a jug of salt that I never needed from last year.  Also wanted to ask: is there a correct way to offer toads an earthworm? I think they're not eating one because the worms are so big. I tried cutting them, yuck, and worms still were not appealing to them. Any tips are appreciated, thanks.

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## MantisMan

put the worms on a smooth surface or dangle them under the toad's nose and they'll be eaten

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## Hoppity100

Oh, I've already done that more than once. The darn earthworms are so long, I have to cut them. I think frogs are waiting for a cricket fest. Got new wax worms though, and mealworms. I will try tonight to put worms on a small flat round lid.

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## kroberts009

im in mcallen, texas. pet stores down here get really hot in the summer months... good news my little FB is still going well from the pebble... but now im thinking hes gone into hibernation. they both have. based upon a cold spell that we have been having. i freaked out thinking it was based upon an enclosure change that i had made, and switched it back after about 5 days... they have stopped eating at much. with very little interest in it. didnt notice any fecal samples when i cleaned the cage either. but there isnt any bloating visible in the frogs. im hoping its just a hibernation spell. ive never done FBTs in Texas before. only California where the weather was always beautiful

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## Hoppity100

Oh, okay, now I see your concerns. I live with 4 seasons and wonder if mine will hibernate, too. I'll read up on that. I'm glad yours are not bloated. Mine eat well so they look chubby. One is skinny but coming along. Maybe mine won't hibernate as long as my tank is at a constant temperature.

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## kroberts009

> Oh, okay, now I see your concerns. I live with 4 seasons and wonder if mine will hibernate, too. I'll read up on that. I'm glad yours are not bloated. Mine eat well so they look chubby. One is skinny but coming along. Maybe mine won't hibernate as long as my tank is at a constant temperature.


honestly i dont know much about hibernation in FBTs. so i have been doing a lot of reading on th internet, and ive read alot about hibernation helping the following breeding season. people go to some interesting lengths for a successful breeding season, from putting them in the basement to putting them in moss filled tupperware and putting them in the fridge. with minimal feedings at approx 1 time a week. I DONT KNOW how accurate this informatin being provided is, and certainly dont plan on putting mine in the fridge to find out! im not looking to breed my two either, thats why they were seperated. MAYBE one day, like 2 years from now. we may give it a try. 

there is just so much different information out there now adays, its hard to determine what is actually accurate. i guess its a lot of picking and choosing, and seeing what work best for you. given basic necessities are met! 

at this point i am really hoping that its a hibernaion season and that the tank changes i tried last week. havent like some how poisioned my FBTs. im sure im being overly paranoid, but i think the ones who lol freak out about every little thing..... are still doing alright!  :Wink:

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## Hoppity100

I was unhappy to find out what people have tried with breeding methods. This should happen naturally, not by being in a fridge or basement. Good grief, do you think these same people believe that Shirley Temple is a church? laughing...and feedings of one day a week? That's abuse to me. I would never make any animal go a week without eating. Its crazy, I think.  What were the tank changes you made beside the change you mentioned? Can't you keep yours together and just remove any eggs? I think they are not going to be happy being apart. I have 4 in same tank and they are just as content as can be. If mine leave any eggs I would remove them and certainly keep the frogs ofcourse. I can't imagine frogs breeding in an aquarium by choice but they probably have. Mine are too busy chasing crickets!

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## kroberts009

> I was unhappy to find out what people have tried with breeding methods. This should happen naturally, not by being in a fridge or basement. Good grief, do you think these same people believe that Shirley Temple is a church? laughing...and feedings of one day a week? That's abuse to me. I would never make any animal go a week without eating. Its crazy, I think. What were the tank changes you made beside the change you mentioned? Can't you keep yours together and just remove any eggs? I think they are not going to be happy being apart. I have 4 in same tank and they are just as content as can be. If mine leave any eggs I would remove them and certainly keep the frogs ofcourse. I can't imagine frogs breeding in an aquarium by choice but they probably have. Mine are too busy chasing crickets!



the only change that was made to their tank. was that i put that the plastic rock like things in and took out the moss for a few days... noticed the changes in their behaviour. so i switched the cages back (after a few days) they are really enjoying their moss again and hiding under it! lol the day after we bought them, we had an attempta grab! lol... eventually ill end up putting them together. scooping out the eggs is a good idea.. although babies would be fun! eventually!

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## Hoppity100

Oh, I see...so they love their moss. If I could find a store that sold moss, I'd get some, too. Yeah, about eggs...if I find any I will remove them. Babies would be great but, my tank could not house them. If it were warm outside and they had babies I could donate them to our goldfish pond in a park about 1/2 mile away. We had tadpoles for the kids years ago and when they got big enough we took them to the pond. Boy, were they happy! I would be surprised if my frogs had eggs, eventhough I hear chirping every night, they are busy looking out the window or looking at stuff on the buffet table they are on. I have plants around them and it probably looks like a jungle to them. They probably would like to get out of that tank and be free.

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## kroberts009

> Oh, I see...so they love their moss. If I could find a store that sold moss, I'd get some, too. Yeah, about eggs...if I find any I will remove them. Babies would be great but, my tank could not house them. If it were warm outside and they had babies I could donate them to our goldfish pond in a park about 1/2 mile away. We had tadpoles for the kids years ago and when they got big enough we took them to the pond. Boy, were they happy! I would be surprised if my frogs had eggs, eventhough I hear chirping every night, they are busy looking out the window or looking at stuff on the buffet table they are on. I have plants around them and it probably looks like a jungle to them. They probably would like to get out of that tank and be free.


mine dont make any noise at this point. but weve only had them since the beginning of september. they get a mixture of moss (the dry kind we add water too and it like turns back into regular moss) anyways so they get a mixture of moss and fake plants mixed and floating in their water. usually they only hide under the fake plants.. now that its getting colder i see them trying to bury themselves under the moss. LOL I had to pick the enclosure  up today to make sure i could see a red belly.. i had to make sure it did not escape

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## jen63

I feed mine earthworms, placing them on a flat rock (the worms that is) so they don't wriggle away too quickly. My tank base is bark & compost covered with moss. My FB's are 20 years old & eat about 3 or 4 worms each a week, sometimes more. What they don't eat wriggles away.

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## kroberts009

> I feed mine earthworms, placing them on a flat rock (the worms that is) so they don't wriggle away too quickly. My tank base is bark & compost covered with moss. My FB's are 20 years old & eat about 3 or 4 worms each a week, sometimes more. What they don't eat wriggles away.


wow, i am amazed that you have firebelies that are 20 years old. you must do an amazing job with them!  :Smile:

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## Hoppity100

Did I read that right? Your FB's are 20 years old? If so, mine could outlive me! How big is a frog that age? Mine are about 2"+ in body size then legs are another 1.5" or so. I give mine a wax worm every day just about. I have one skinny frog (he was shipped that way) so I give him more worms. I have a problem with earthworms: they're so big I had to cut them, then frogs didn't go for it because they did not wiggle long enough. So, I'm back to making weekly cricket visits once a week again, plus wax worms or mealworms. Too bad flies are so hard to catch...

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## jen63

> Did I read that right? Your FB's are 20 years old? If so, mine could outlive me! How big is a frog that age? Mine are about 2"+ in body size then legs are another 1.5" or so. I give mine a wax worm every day just about. I have one skinny frog (he was shipped that way) so I give him more worms. I have a problem with earthworms: they're so big I had to cut them, then frogs didn't go for it because they did not wiggle long enough. So, I'm back to making weekly cricket visits once a week again, plus wax worms or mealworms. Too bad flies are so hard to catch...


I can remember the day I got my first FB, he was in a tank of salamanders & the shop owner didn't know he was there! I was at college, 20 years ago. I got another to keep him company the same year, from a breeder. The one from the shop soon fattened up. He is still fat & very bright colours. The one from the breeder is thinner & dull. They haven't changed at all! They have a light on most of the evening, a little pond, lots of moss, wood & the flat stone that I feed them on. They have fairly small worms, (2 inches max) & I always make sure they have eaten up. Sometimes I have to keep pushing the worm in front of them, they might show no interest at all then suddenly change their minds & eat. I tried mealworms when we had snow, but they don't like the legs.

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## jen63

Thanks, but I think I'm just keeping it simple. They just eat worms. I've never given them any supplements / minerals although they do get a bit of dirt from the worm now & again. :Smile:

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## Hoppity100

Oh, that is so neat! I have 4 FB's and all get along. They're having a cricket fest tonight and I changed their water today. My tank is very similar to yours without moss. I have strands of real plants in their pond and driftwood, treehouse, rocks, fake plants, dry land area of eco earth. I have a small lamp next to my tank for evening since they are near a window they get natural light in the daytime. FB's are alot more fun than the RCC's I had, and I thought they were entertaining. I like hearing the chirping every night. Mine like either wax or mealworms, their favorite is crickets. I tried earthworms but that really failed: the worms were way too big. Even after cutting they did not wiggle long enough. 

I surrounded myself in pets because its good for me, I will be facing empty nest syndrome within a year, so pets are going to be my company. I also have a dog and cat, fish, hermits. Its enough to keep me busy all the time. I check everyone every day. My cat is a young stray that was crying out at night in the cold. She is thin and is so happy inside the house! Tonight she is getting salmon with her canned food. I gave her boiled chicken the other nights with canned food. She also got to taste tuna. Today I made a scratch post myself and bought her toys. She is less than a year old. I can't imagine her story.

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## jen63

Wow, I've got 3 strays myself! They all turned up at different times & sort of get on with each other. 
I have a tame wild toad, he's really big & lives in a plant pot in the garden, but he's hibernating for winter. He has the most beautiful golden eyes & eats worms out my hand.
My other half thinks I'm mental. Can't think why!
 :Wink:

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## Hoppity100

I think many other halves do, mine does! You have 3 strays? kept indoors? Any tips for a new cat owner? I think I have enough supplies for my cat: scratch post, food, litter box, kitty harness and small leash (she is afraid to be outside again), toys, and all I need are treats. The post I made today looks pretty good. It was wood covered in navy denim with ribbons attached to the top and a small plush animal. I also strung a jingle bell from closet door for her to bat around. She has a new ball and catnip toy with a feather. I'm trying to occupy her when I'm not around. Tip: when my other half thinks I'm mental, he gets hamburger helper ( he hates that )! LOL

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## kroberts009

haha, i just laughed out oud, about when your half thinks your mental, you feed him hamburger helper!  :Smile:  my family gets that when its beena long day and im being lazy

its always nice hearing what other people have and how they are going about doing it! sounds like you have one lucky little stray kitty! sounds like you have most of the basics and some extras covered. we always used to like playing with one of the cat toys thats a pole with a string hanging down and has some small item on the end. makes for some good memories, just watch your couch and other upholstered items! they work as good scratching posts too! 

our household has, 2 birds (parakeet and cockatiel), a red eared slider, sucker fish for turtle tank, a common boa, the 2 firebellies, and 2 leopard geckos at the moment. fighting hard not to get anything else  :Smile:  at least too quickly!

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## Hoppity100

Glad you liked my hamburger helper idea! I can always add brussels sprouts to it (laughing). You have other pets, too? Watch that sucker fish...we had one that outgrew a 20 gal tank and became 14" long, had to be donated to pet store with huge tank. The cat is one pet I never had due to allergies. Now, for some reason, no sneezing with this cat, she even slept on my bed all night and was in my face. A lovely cat to have, too. I have gotten all the necessaries for her, and she was a wish come true for me, found her a few days before my birthday. Older daughter gave away a cat I cared for some months ago when husband blamed sneezing on cat. Husband has been sneezing for 2 years! I told him that is why there is Claritin. He just didn't want me to have a cat! My son is allergic, so we keep his door closed. Cat is in another bedroom. Even the dog likes her!

Our shelters are always full and there are many ads for free cats. I worry about all of them going to the wrong home. Wish I could take more in, but with dog, fish, hermits, frogs, oh and husband (he's a pet, too) I am busy. He is what we call the "typical man", can't share territory with homeless animal. Well, he is now! I am holding my ground on this one! Frankly, he is jealous I spend so much time with my pets and I'd rather be with them, they aren't cranky. I'd rather sleep with them, too. Heck, I'd rather sleep with 29 possums than the husband (LOL). He's more cranky than 3  6 ft. sharks stuffed into an 8x8 ft. aquarium. I see more than hamburger helper in his future...maybe I could get a camel and he could sleep with it. I'll take my dog and cat and sleep with them! At least they don't snore...

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## kroberts009

yeah, im well aware of how big our sucker fish can get. apparently up to 2 feet. LOL... as long as he keeps doing his job. ill contine making upgrades for him. botht he turtle and the fish are under 2 inches at the moment. i think weve got some time  :Smile:

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## Hoppity100

You have him in 2" of water? How big is he now? Are your turtles small? I have my FB's pond 3" deep. The sucker fish grows slow enough that you do have time. I have rainbow sharks and I'm watching them, too. Had an albino rainbow that grew to 3.5" in about 2 mos so he was donated. He was in charge of the whole tank because he was the biggest fish and he kept bothering the tank mates. The remaining fish are so relieved they had to lay down in the plants LOL. Well, first they partied...

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## kroberts009

> You have him in 2" of water? How big is he now? Are your turtles small? I have my FB's pond 3" deep. The sucker fish grows slow enough that you do have time. I have rainbow sharks and I'm watching them, too. Had an albino rainbow that grew to 3.5" in about 2 mos so he was donated. He was in charge of the whole tank because he was the biggest fish and he kept bothering the tank mates. The remaining fish are so relieved they had to lay down in the plants LOL. Well, first they partied...


we have one turtle, and one sucker fish in the same tank. they share a 10 gallon at the moment and they are both at most 2 inches in length. their water is on average at least 3.5 inches deep maybe 4, right now since they got a full water change they are at 4.5 inches deep. our turtle also spends a lot of time out of the water on his dock! haha turtle gets on the top of the dock, fish gets the bottom.  :Smile:  lol we named the turtle tiny because of how small he/she is... cant wait until its about a foot in length!

my firebellies just got an upgraded home complete with filter and heater (was worried about the hibernation, that we discuss a while back) since their switch yesterday morning... they are hiding under their home... lol right on top of eachother. (they got reunited yesterday) after just over 2 months of being apart. they have not taken advantage of their water yet, which is about 3.5 inches deep as well.

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## Hoppity100

Oh, sounds good! My FB's have not hibernated and we are on the close edge to winter. Mine have heated water and I think I'll see if any would like a worm before I go to bed. Our sucker fish was in a 20 gal tank when he got too large. We got him around 3" and ofcourse were first time fish owners, this was 20 years ago. Even then stores were not able to warn people of this fish. I miss that tank, but I'm happy with my 10 gal, that's all I can handle with my other pets. I had a turtle as a kid, it was my favorite pet until he got out one day when my mom said I should put him in the back yard. I was too young to pay attention and he got away. Probably the happiest he's ever been!

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## kroberts009

awww poor turtle, but i bet he felt free..all of our animals are for the most part undera year (i think sammy our cockatiel is the eldest, at a year and a half) so we have a little time before we all get to adult stages...   :Smile:  at which time, we will all get upgraded homes... and then my horrible mind, says i have homes to fill! lol

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## FrogFriend

Hey Hoppity! I just heard about your stray kitty! I wanted to tell you, I have gone out and bought so much stuff for kitties over the years and here is what I have found, they are like little children! You open up their toy and the kitty plays with the box, the twisty ties and the plastic wrap, but goes nowhere near the the toy! Here are things my kitties LOVE: paper balls (roll up ANY paper that is small enough to fit in their mouths, it has to be able to fit in their mouth because they love to walk around with it and change locations), the toilet roll when the paper is gone (my kitten loves this! It's small enough to fit in her mouth but long enough for her to give one end a smack and see it spin in the air), milk carton rings (again, small enough to fit in the mouth but too big to swallow and makes a fun scrape sound when it gets batted around), twistie ties from bread or toy packages...and I know there are more but that's what my 3 play with right now. There is one thing that I do always buy and it gets used- that is the scratching boards, they are like cardboard box sides pressed together. They love this, and of course the catnip on it helps. LOL! Anyway, I just wanted to give you a heads up. I am fairly knowledgeable about the feline world, so let me know if you have any questions.  :Smile:

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## Hoppity100

Oh I am so glad you wrote! This is my first kitty and I've been reading about cats on the internet. I have given mine toys but will try the paper and toilet paper roll. She is the coolest cat ever! She sleeps with me every night and I have not even sneezed yet! I have water and my inhaler next to my bed and all I ever need is itch cream because she bites my hand and scratches it every night. She also wants to play at 3 am when I am trying to sleep. I got her some new treats today and can still find her more toys. This cat I felt so sorry for, she was out when we had 4 cold nights and had a distress cry. She is grateful to me and shows me this every day. I will call the vet and make an appt because she has an expiratory sound that seems like she is not controlling it, it is not a pur but another sound. I had the window cracked because the bedroom is warm and it has been warm here till Wed, then it will be in the 30's again.

Her stool sample was neg and she has been eating and toileting just fine. She is so lucky to have me and be inside the house. I am just waiting for the bad weather to hit and gosh, I feel so good about finding her! Any tips on favorite food for cats like sardines? or liverwurst? or fish? I made a scratch post but she has not used it yet, maybe sand paper would be best. Anything else you can think of I would appreciate. It was suggested by the vet to give her a bath in the sink not tub, I can try it. I just wish I could get her into a cat carrier by myself so I could take her to the vet. I've tried and she is too smart to go in. Any help is great here....

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## jen63

Sorry late in seeing your post! Your Kitty sounds like well loved. 2 of mine were ferals, so they had a problem coming in! Took some persuasion. The third little girl was dumped, pregnant, on the road & was hiding under a hedge. She's scared of loud noises, but all three are free to go out as I live in the country. Looking after strays / ferals is so rewarding, they really seem to appreciate their new comforts.

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## FrogFriend

I wish there was a dislike or sad face button for hearing bad/sad news. I don't like when people dump animals (in general) and especially don't like it if they dump pregnant animals. If you didn't want them to get pregnant then spay/neuter your pets!!! It's not that difficult people! And money isn't a good excuse because all over the country and Jen63 you can tell me this- but possibly the world they have discount or free spay/neuter clinics. Anyway...I am glad you took them in! I fostered orphaned kittens over the spring and summer and I also took on failure to thrive kittens. People would tell me that they never could do that because they couldn't send them back, my thought was always, how could I not? Yes, I lost some from illness taking them and it did hurt the heart. But at the same time, every kitten that didn't make it died being loved, in a warm home and held! I think that's how most of us would want to go! I don't regret it! I praise you and everyone else that opens their home and heart for a stray and especially for taking on an animal that many wouldn't give a chance. I had some semi-feral and definitely feral kittens. Most of them I was able to imprint and socialize. I pray that they find homes. Anywa, so glad for people like you Jen63!

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## Hoppity100

Yes, she is! You sound like me in that we have a genuine desire to help these animals. Yeah, the ferals are more of a challenge but when they learn you're safe they're thankful. I can see why cats are so cautious,...I would be, too! Do you have the third cat? If so, how is she? And you have her kittens, too? I feel caring for stray and feral cats is also rewarding. My cat thanked me every night since she has been indoors. They do have memory.

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## jen63

You know how, when you have cats it's so easy to keep going on about them to other people who have them? Well, we seem to have taken over a frog forum thread!
In answer to your question, I kept the dumped Kitty ( & named her Kitty) but she was too young to have the babies so unfortunately they had to be aborted at the vets. Being pregnant so young stunted her growth a little. She has very small, bandy legs but she's a happy little girl now.

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## Hoppity100

Oh I am glad and she is ok. My cat needs to be spayed, she is just less than a year old. I'm in no hurry except if its done then I'd like to do it before bad weather hits. Next week we are supposed to have rain/snow x 4 days. Cat is fine and is having a fish dinner tonight, chicken tomorrow night. I bought her a scratch post and she does not know what to do with it. I'll sprinkle catnip on it. Glad your cat is a happy girl, always nice to hear a good story!

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## FrogFriend

It's best that they aborted them. Babies born to babies have major deformities. Many of them don't survive. Never a happy task but at least it isn't all of them.

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## Hoppity100

True, yeah I do understand.

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## jen63

I wanted to show you Kitty, but thought maybe that's going a bit too far on a frog forum website, so I sneakily added her in after a pic of my garden toad, who lives on top of a mossy wall overhanging with leaves, and one of my ancient FB's.
The garden toad is waiting for a worm. He's about as big as a common toad gets. He's out there hibernating now, so I just have to wait to see if he turns up again next year.
Now I've got to google Hamburgerhelper!

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## Hoppity100

Oh,...laughing...thanks for the pics. I'd send them but need someone to show me how. We had a toad outside, too, but I have not seen him for a while. He stayed near the hose because it would drip a pool of water that he liked. Yeah, husband will get more hamburger helper because he said he hated it. He has caused me so much grief you cannot believe. After using claritin for years because he sits in the house day after day (retired) and complains about leaves and dust, he now tries to say the cat is giving him a stuffy nose. He is so jealous that I spend time with the dog and cat he can't stand it. Because of him I am plain miserable. 

I got medicine for the cat's water to help people with allergies which I will try later, as she is getting spayed tomorrow. You might know we are supposed to have alot of cold rain tomorrow and the clinic is quite a distance. I have thought about cancelling but if I wait the weather will get alot colder. She is an indoor cat and I know of people that never got their cat spayed and the cat was fine. There is some risk by not doing it. I'll see how bad the rain is in the morning first, maybe I can postpone it.

My frogs got another dose of crickets the other day so they're happy. I will clean their tank when the crickets are gone. If you think of anything unappetizing I can add to the hamburger helper, let me know LOL!

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