# Frogs & Toads > African Bullfrogs >  wild animals vs pet store feeders, are they both safe for pixies to eat?

## Dr. Matt

Is a wild animal really more risky to feed your pixie than a petstore bought feeder animal?  My answer, slightly but not by much.
  If the wild animal (bird,frog,snake,worms,bugs,fish) looks healthy before it died, the risk is about the same as a store bought rat of mouse.  But if the wild animal is sickly before its death then it is a bigger risk than a store bought feeder.
  I like breaking my frogs diet up so if i can get a different animal to feed my frog, i examine it and then deep freeze it for a week.  But some wont touch a wild animal as a feeder for there frog.



what do you guys think?

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## Jack

Pet store bought is a lot safer in my opinion. Also freezing doesn't kill all diseases. It can put them into a state of dormancy but then as soon as you defrost the food they multiply again.

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## Dr. Matt

Jack,
 are you saying that Petstore feeders are perfectly safe?

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## nok1888

I'd never feed any of my snakes wild caught because of the viruses and parasites that wild can carry. If rodents are bred for food your much safer, and even then I won't buy just anywhere. I get my stuff at a big frozen food store and know it's the best I can buy


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2.0 Border Collies - Jinky and Chance
3.0 Cats - Monty, Dodger and Crunchie
1.1 Royal Pythons Orlina and Sedrick
0.1 BCI Boa - Aasia
1.0 Western Hognose - Hagrid
0.1 Bearded Dragon - iiara

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## Jack

> Jack,
>  are you saying that Petstore feeders are perfectly safe?


No because it all depends on who supplies these feeders. Some people could care less but others take good care. In the wild the animals could pick up all sorts of stuff. Everyone has their own opinions though.

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## Dr. Matt

Just fed Mr. Pickles a fish and put it on youtube "African bullfrog eats a fish"  this fish was bought and i guarantee it came from the wild or some outside lake.  You can see how fast he nails it even though i had just taken him out of his cage.  a healthy pixie dont care if he is handled before he eats he just wants to eat.  AWESOME!!!

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## Dr. Matt

there are rat breeders who never had a rat die from a disease or parasite?  I would call a couple vets around you and ask if anyones pet snake that only fed on store bought rats ever came in and had parasites.

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## Jack

Nice video. He finished that off quick. How long is he? Still risky though feeding him wild caught.

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## nok1888

I take it your not interested in anyone's opinion unless it's someone agreeing with you. 

No one says rats etc from breeders are 100% safe but they're a hell of a lot safer than wild caught, but if you refuse to see it go ahead I just hope your lucky in what you find in the wild


-------------------------------------------
2.0 Border Collies - Jinky and Chance
3.0 Cats - Monty, Dodger and Crunchie
1.1 Royal Pythons Orlina and Sedrick
0.1 BCI Boa - Aasia
1.0 Western Hognose - Hagrid
0.1 Bearded Dragon - iiara

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## Jeff

There is a certain amount of risk with anything you feed; be it wild-caught or captive bred. Whether or not one chooses to do a particular action depends on how they perceive the risk.

For example, some people ride motorcycles, and some people wouldn't be caught dead on one. Yet there are still others who may only ride with protective gear only, or those who choose to ride without any gear at all.

My point is: Captive-reared feeders are almost always going to be safer to feed than wild-caught.  As was pointed out, freezing does little to stop most any serious pathogen... it simply initiates a dormancy state in most microbes and even in some small invertebrates (i.e. mites). The only way to truly be certain that parasites or other pathogens are eradicated is through some kind of intense chemical or high-heat treatment. We use autoclaves in the lab to prevent contamination of microbial DNA and to disinfect materials that have become contaminated (high pressure, high moist heat treatment).

A captive environment is a closed system... and I have a fairly large group of friends who are snake hobbyists that breed their own rodents in pristine conditions. It is not fair to assume that all rodents or captive bred feeders come from a grotesque background. You severely limit the types of organisms that can enter or exit your feeder breeding system in captivity.

To believe that nature does not hold as great a potential for vectoring disease shows ignorance in understanding life histories of parasitic organisms. I conduct research on parasitoids, and believe me, there are parasites and pathogens virtually everywhere in your backyard. Are these all capable of eliciting a disease in a frog? Probably not. But the odds of happening across some nasty fungus, parasites, or microbial pathogen is substantially higher when you enter the real-world where parasitic organisms are entirely dominant. Feed at your own risk, and also understand that feeders who are capable of traveling any distance can also come into contact with various chemical -cides, etc.

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GrifTheGreat

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## NialR35

> Just fed Mr. Pickles a fish and put it on youtube "African bullfrog eats a fish"  this fish was bought and i guarantee it came from the wild or some outside lake.  You can see how fast he nails it even though i had just taken him out of his cage.  a healthy pixie dont care if he is handled before he eats he just wants to eat.  AWESOME!!!


Reading your answers from your other post it says that you use fish as a staple diet for your pyxie and you only dust supplements every couple of months whenever you feed crickets? Oh god....

These frogs can live up to 15-20 years in captivity with the proper care and you only had your frog for a little over a year...Are you sure you want to keep doing these things?

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## Colleen/Jerrod

I'm glad Jeff replied to this because quite frankly I'm tired of repeating myself.

I've stated the risks of feeding WC prey to members frogs so many times that you can actually do a search on the forum and find not only my posts, but a few other's as well.

There is a small benefit to WC prey, but the fact of the matter is that the benefit does not outweigh the risks plain and simple.

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## Dr. Matt

that is very detailed and i see you take this very seriously.  that is why i respect you guys!  you are not in this forum for money but because you all care about something.  i wish more people would be this way!  I also like holding an intelligent conversation with you all because most people know almost nothing about frogs exept they ribit and jump and eat flies.  so that is why i take time to share info with all of you. 
  The main reason why i am broadening my frogs diet it to expand him imunities.  Just because there are potental plagues everywhere on this planet doesnt mean everyone will get them.  Health has a big part to play against any sickness.  I also believe that a diverse diet is necessary for top health.  It may be a tiny risk to feed him a healthy wild animal but he is in peek condition now because i do.  Plus i have started him out early in life on this stuff so he can adapt.  And life always has a way of adapting to anything if its done early enough.  I think you guys should stop looking at how aweful this may decome and start thinking of the potential benefits this could turn into.

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## Dr. Matt

Thanks Jack!!!  I think some may disagree with my theories but time will tell.  This is not my first rodeo with exotic species that are tricky to keep.  I think everyone likes to know the outcome of someone elses ways.  If Mr. Pickels gets violently ill I WILL LET EVERYONE KNOW. I am not trying to kick against the pricks, i am am saying there are no pricks in this area if done properly.  Thanks again Jack!!!

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## Dr. Matt

You said "Oh god" are you impressed?  (:
I think Mr. Pickels will redeffine age limits.  20 years is nothing for well ballanced dieted animals.  Fish in a frogs diet is esential for optimum Health.  everyone knows that!  The oils in fish are even used for almost every living animals diet.  ever take fish oil pills?  It does make a difference.

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## Dr. Matt

> I take it your not interested in anyone's opinion unless it's someone agreeing with you. 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> 2.0 Border Collies - Jinky and Chance
> 3.0 Cats - Monty, Dodger and Crunchie
> 1.1 Royal Pythons Orlina and Sedrick
> 0.1 BCI Boa - Aasia
> ...


It seems to me to be the other way around.  I have a way that works and people are saying it cant be done.  If you read more of my posts you will find logic behind my thoughts.  the only downfall might be parasites or something else that MIGHT cause a problem that any trained vet can and will fix.  Big deal.   Vets see pet snakes all the time with parasites and other problems that came form their food source.  Nothing is 100%safe NOTHING.

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## Dr. Matt

> Nice video. He finished that off quick. How long is he? Still risky though feeding him wild caught.


He is around 7 inches but he may be bigger i havent measured him.  the next youtube video i will measure him on the video. thanks again for the positive response! (:

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## NialR35

> You said "Oh god" are you impressed?  (:
> I think Mr. Pickels will redeffine age limits.  20 years is nothing for well ballanced dieted animals.  Fish in a frogs diet is esential for optimum Health.  everyone knows that!  The oils in fish are even used for almost every living animals diet.  ever take fish oil pills?  It does make a difference.


 :Flogging a Dead Horse:

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## Jack

Nial where did your posts go? I saw you wrote a lot of info and now it's not showing up. Just a horse being hit.

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## NialR35

> Nial where did your posts go? I saw you wrote a lot of info and now it's not showing up. Just a horse being hit.


I deleted one but I think I might have deleted another one by mistake, I think the "beating the dead horse" says enough already because I think we are getting trolled lol.

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## Jack

> I deleted one but I think I might have deleted another one by mistake, I think the "beating the dead horse" says enough already because I think we are getting trolled lol.


Oh ok. I get emails every time someone replies to a thread and I read the email saw your post and came to reply but it was gone and there was just the horse. And yes the horse does say enough. :Big Grin:

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## Jeff

> the only downfall might be parasites or something else that MIGHT cause a problem that any trained vet can and will fix. Big deal. Vets see pet snakes all the time with parasites and other problems that came form their food source.


Most of us try to prevent ever having to see a vet by erring on the side of caution with our feeders. And I've had a "qualified herp vet" fail to recognize the difference between a pinworm egg and a coccidea cyst, so you should not rely on a vet as a crutch. Plus, most of us do not have the privilege of having a good herp vet nearby... it is a rarity to have one in an adjacent city. We are keeping our pets in a captive environment; it out responsibility to keep them as comfortable as possible. There is no need to "build immunities" when they are never going to be subjected to anything in the outside world that will elicit problems.

For example: When I went to the Peruvian Rainforest, I wore long pants and long-sleeved shirts to prevent being bitten by mosquitoes, black flies, and sand flies; all of which vector serious human diseases. I did this because I was only staying there for two weeks, and there was no need for me to go through the pain and suffering of building immunity to their bites as I will never be encountering these diseases again back in my home in Ohio.

Our guide on the other hand, who lived in the forest for 8 years, had to take a different approach. The Matsiguanka tribe encouraged him to be tied to a tree at night, naked, allowing him to be bitten by everything in the forest. He suffered a severe fever, hallucinations, seizures, and extreme discomfort for two weeks. But now, he can walk in the forest barefoot, with shorts and no shirt and he no longer reacts to the bites of these insects.

My point is - you do not need to play antibody-building experimentation with a captive pet who should never be encountering the pathogens in the first place. You are the only one introducing them to him.




> Fish in a frogs diet is esential for optimum Health.  everyone knows that!  The oils in fish are even used for almost every living animals diet.


Would you like to cite the literature form which you obtained this information? Because both of these statements are wildly inaccurate (especially considering most frogs are insectivore). You should not state your own opinions as fact... I thought you said something about having an actual scientific debate earlier?

There is one thing I can agree with you on, and that is that a varied diet is key to the well-being of most any organism (aside from specialists). We should all aim to provide as must variety in our pet's diet as possible, but this can be accomplished with the variety of food items available in the captive-feeder trade as well: silkworms, captive-reared hornworms, waxworms, earthworms, mealworms, Zophobas, solider fly larvae, crickets, locusts, springtails, cultured flies, and numerous different species of cockroach are all commonly cultured in the pet trade and provide us with opportunities to provide out pet's with a varied diet. I am even okay with feeding certain arthopods collected from "safe" areas that are known to have no been sprayed with chemicals... but one should be selective and cautious about this. Feeding gastropods, fish and birds from the wild is just downright risky... these species are all notorious carriers of pathogens. Fish often carry fluke worms and specific protozoans, and gastropods are known to vector parasites that specifically attack amphibians. I typically only collect a very specific set of insects from a very specific location if I ever feel so inclined.

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## Dr. Matt

Jeff,
  Thank you for giving a detailed response.  About frogs eating fish, it is common sense and as a kid we used to go critter hunting and i saw frogs eat fish.  In fact if we caught a frog and wanted to keep it a while we would catch small fish for it to eat, and they always did.  If they would eat them while in a container with kids picking them up all the time than they probably eat a ton of them in the wild. and why wouldnt they, all these insects everyone feeds dont have bones. bones are a great form of natural calcium, suppliments are great but they can never duplicate the real things. 
   I have never said that wild animals are not risky i have said that petstore feeders are just as risky.
My frog has to build immunities because he is going to come into contact with many things in his long life.  If i start feeding him everything i can think of now, then as he gets older the risk of him falling prey to a disease becomes less and less, kind of like your Guide.
But i do appreciate all the info, your peruvian rainforest trip sounds awesome!!!

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## Lija

> It seems to me to be the other way around.  I have a way that works and people are saying it cant be done.  If you read more of my posts you will find logic behind my thoughts.  the only downfall might be parasites or something else that MIGHT cause a problem that any trained vet can and will fix.  Big deal.   Vets see pet snakes all the time with parasites and other problems that came form their food source.  Nothing is 100%safe NOTHING.


 I'm getting annoyed....... A lot....... Matt, any trained vet can and will fix anything? ..... It is very much obvious that you have no medical or vet knowledge of any sorts, no doctor human or veterinarian can fix everything, there are zoonotic decreases that frog can have and you can get infected as well, there are bunch of problems that might cause you to euthanize one frog or even your whole collection.... frankly I'm not sure if there is anything to discuss. Your choice to put or not your frog is possible danger....it is a big deal and it is serious. 
 Sorry I don't want to offend you but having myself deal with zoonotic problem right now it makes me plain mad how you underestimate a danger you might put yourself and your frog in.
 It is the worst idea possible to get frog (anyone) get exposed to something in order to get immunity. It doesn't work this way especially not in a captive environment.

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## Dr. Matt

> I'm getting annoyed....... A lot....... Matt, any trained vet can and will fix anything? ..... It is very much obvious that you have no medical or vet knowledge of any sorts, no doctor human or veterinarian can fix everything, there are zoonotic decreases that frog can have and you can get infected as well, there are bunch of problems that might cause you to euthanize one frog or even your whole collection.... frankly I'm not sure if there is anything to discuss. Your choice to put or not your frog is possible danger....it is a big deal and it is serious. 
> Sorry I don't want to offend you but having myself deal with zoonotic problem right now it makes me plain mad how you underestimate a danger you might put yourself and your frog in.
> It is the worst idea possible to get frog (anyone) get exposed to something in order to get immunity. It doesn't work this way especially not in a captive environment.


do you own dogs?  are you terrified if they go outside?  You have to calm down a little bit.  its not like i am scooping up dead animals out side of poison traps or along side the road.  I am taking healthy wild animals and deep freezing them for a week, then feeding.  My dogs eat tons of stuff outside and bounce back inside.  I am not paralized with fear because of that.  they have a different immune system than me and it has never effected them.  Just like frogs.  Just because i dont see your convictions as serious as you do, doesnt mean i am a terrible person.  I think my frog is awesome and i want him to be the best he can be.  I happen to think that powdered insects as a main diet is not as good as a diverse diet of many critters.  This forum is not just for you and me it is for people to read both veiw points and choose which one sounds better to them.  that is what we want right?

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## Lija

Matt...
That is a part that makes me mad and perhaps overreacting too... I had to euthanize one frog and now entire collection of frogs, reptiles is under full scale quarantine, all humans who were in a contact are under medical care as well and yet you're willingly taking wild caught stuff into your house and stating it is ok, despite that so many people are saying otherwise....

You should be happy you didn't have much problems yet... The more you see, the more you know, the more serious and at times even paranoid lol, you become in terms of risk factors. You can't be too safe.
 You can't compare dogs and frogs or any other exotic pets. There is so much more can be done for dogs that is not available for frogs in a time of crisis, especially if you have funds for it, companion animal medicine is way more advanced then exotic one  with way more possibilities.

 Deep freezing will not make it safe to feed, deep freezing will do nothing to most bacteria, viruses heavy metals and other stuff, even some parasites will be perfectly happy to live once defrozen. Bleach will not kill everything.... Disinfecting in my household right now looks like that - destroy everything that can't be disinfected, not diluted bleach, then 100% alcohol then undiluted bleach again and after that I still don't have 100% guarantee that it is gonna be safe... I understand that is extreme, but I have no choice...... So yeah I think I can have an excuse for reacting a bit too much when people underestimating danger.

 Anyhow I see you're convinced you do a right thing, I wish you all the best.

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## Carlos

Hi Matt!  No one here thinks you are a terrible person  :EEK!:  .  From reading your posts in this and other threads, it's clear you have your way of doing things and learning.  That is all good and fine because they are your frogs, dogs, etc.  Myself would not give my frog or let my dog eat anything found outside in the wild...ever.  It's not a matter of immunity, logic, or trust in my veterinary's capability.  It's a matter of risk!

Me and other members in forum do not estimate risk like you do; that is all.  You can present your methods, see the logic in them, argue every point and debate your position for a very long time and that is fine.  However, as long as other members consider it a risk to their loved pets, they will continue to take a stand against that risk.  Again, no one here is a terrible person and every now and then, we just have to agree that we disagree  :Smile:  !

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## Jack

> Matt...
> That is a part that makes me mad and perhaps overreacting too... I had to euthanize one frog and now entire collection of frogs, reptiles is under full scale quarantine.


You had to kill frogs? :Frog Surprise:

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## Carlos

> You had to kill frogs?


There are incurable, highly contagious pathogens out there Jack.  Some of them can even present a risk to ourselves and our families.  In those cases we have no option than to euthanize a pet  :Mad:  .  It's not fun; I've done it myself  :Frown:  .

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## Jack

> There are incurable, highly contagious pathogens out there Jack.  Some of them can even present a risk to ourselves and our families.  In those cases we have no option than to euthanize a pet  .  It's not fun; I've done it myself  .


I know how sad it is to kill a pet or see it be killed. When I was little I watched the vet put down my Beagle because he had cancer. I cried then and now that I thought about it again I'm crying now. :Frown:  Sorry for your frogs.

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## NialR35

> Matt...
> That is a part that makes me mad and perhaps overreacting too... I had to euthanize one frog and now entire collection of frogs, reptiles is under full scale quarantine, all humans who were in a contact are under medical care as well and yet you're willingly taking wild caught stuff into your house and stating it is ok, despite that so many people are saying otherwise....
> 
> You should be happy you didn't have much problems yet... The more you see, the more you know, the more serious and at times even paranoid lol, you become in terms of risk factors. You can't be too safe.
>  You can't compare dogs and frogs or any other exotic pets. There is so much more can be done for dogs that is not available for frogs in a time of crisis, especially if you have funds for it, companion animal medicine is way more advanced then exotic one  with way more possibilities.
> 
>  Deep freezing will not make it safe to feed, deep freezing will do nothing to most bacteria, viruses heavy metals and other stuff, even some parasites will be perfectly happy to live once defrozen. Bleach will not kill everything.... Disinfecting in my household right now looks like that - destroy everything that can't be disinfected, not diluted bleach, then 100% alcohol then undiluted bleach again and after that I still don't have 100% guarantee that it is gonna be safe... I understand that is extreme, but I have no choice...... So yeah I think I can have an excuse for reacting a bit too much when people underestimating danger.
> 
>  Anyhow I see you're convinced you do a right thing, I wish you all the best.



Wow Lija, I hope every one is okay....How did something like this happen though? If you don't mind me asking because it sounds bad if your whole collection is in a full scale quarantine and all humans that were in contact are under medical care. I wish you the best though and hope everything gets sorted out soon.

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## Dr. Matt

[QUOTE=Lija;196924]Matt...
That is a part that makes me mad and perhaps overreacting too... I had to euthanize one frog and now entire collection of frogs, reptiles is under full scale quarantine, all humans who were in a contact are under medical care as well and yet you're willingly taking wild caught stuff into your house and stating it is ok, despite that so many people are saying otherwise....

May i ask how that disease came to your frog?

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## Dr. Matt

> Hi Matt! No one here thinks you are a terrible person  . From reading your posts in this and other threads, it's clear you have your way of doing things and learning. That is all good and fine because they are your frogs, dogs, etc. Myself would not give my frog or let my dog eat anything found outside in the wild...ever. It's not a matter of immunity, logic, or trust in my veterinary's capability. It's a matter of risk!
> 
> Me and other members in forum do not estimate risk like you do; that is all. You can present your methods, see the logic in them, argue every point and debate your position for a very long time and that is fine. However, as long as other members consider it a risk to their loved pets, they will continue to take a stand against that risk. Again, no one here is a terrible person and every now and then, we just have to agree that we disagree  !


well spooken carlos!  I am just sharing with everyone A way.  there are many diseases in the world and so to constantly think of "worse case senerio" for every possible decision is a waist of time.  For me i will take the risk of a well balanced diet instead of the risk of depleated overall health from an unbalanced diet.  I "might" have a problem some day. and if i do i have you guys to contact. (:
Thank you for the kind words.

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## Lija

Thank you guys for support.
It is bad and it is serious, but so far it doesn't look anyone else got infected and we should be all fine, but will need to wait up to 5 months in a panic mode lol we are at almost 2 months now. I have no idea how that thing got in, except may be with live plant that is not really possible to disinfect without killing prior to placing it in, I just so happy that we always disinfect hands and everything in between doing something in different enclosures, basically all my animals have always been under mild quarantine conditions even before all that, so I'm hopeful it is gonna be all right. 

 Anyhow, just be careful guys  :Smile: . Always!

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## Dr. Matt

Is there anyone out there with a "ata boy" or "your doing it right"? Anyone???

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## Dr. Matt

> Thank you guys for support.
> It is bad and it is serious, but so far it doesn't look anyone else got infected and we should be all fine, but will need to wait up to 5 months in a panic mode lol we are at almost 2 months now. I have no idea how that thing got in, except may be with live plant that is not really possible to disinfect without killing prior to placing it in, I just so happy that we always disinfect hands and everything in between doing something in different enclosures, basically all my animals have always been under mild quarantine conditions even before all that, so I'm hopeful it is gonna be all right. 
> 
> Anyhow, just be careful guys . Always!


Just like i have been trying to say, even if you do everything right and buy only store bought stuff there is still ALWAYS a risk.   diseases are everywhere so to worry about them is pointless.  use a little common sense and cross your fingers.  I choose to make sure my frog has immunities to almost everything possible, that is the best decision to me.
i am sorry to hear about your loss!!

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## DeltaElite121

> Just like i have been trying to say, even if you do everything right and buy only store bought stuff there is still ALWAYS a risk.   diseases are everywhere so to worry about them is pointless.  use a little common sense and cross your fingers.  I choose to make sure my frog has immunities to almost everything possible, that is the best decision to me.
> i am sorry to hear about your loss!!


There are many diseases and parasites that NO amount of prevention will help you, and by the time you figure out something is wrong it can be inherently too late. There are ALWAYS risks anywhere you go, but the difference with many of these feeder farms are the fact they watch carefully over their livestock.. if you think they (the feeder farm owners) don't pay attention to 20 people phonecalling them saying "my animal has _______ disease now and I ONLY buy my crickets from you! You no longer get my money thanks to my vet bills!" then you're out of your mind. Many people have very expensive, exotic animals reaching in the thousands of dollars and won't hesitate to seek compensation in the event something like this pops up.. which is exactly why many of those farms are careful about things. While there's certainly no set way of doing things, I'd say you're walking right into trouble for obvious reasons. Look at it this way - that's like me "boosting my immune system" for all the diseases here and heading straight over to Africa with no fear of Malaria because "I prepared myself". Do you know how ridiculous that is? There's a reason why immunizations are required when you do that sort of traveling.. because we as humans JUST LIKE ANIMALS don't have a "one size fits all" immune system. Genetics don't work that way, even in frogs. They may be better than a lot of animals out there, but we're just talking about some types diseases and parasites... we're not including the other stuff like ground contamination from pollution or fertilizers, or any other man-made synthetics ingested/passed on to the frog. That stuff will also take a giant toll on your animals (if not worse). Nobody here is disagreeing with you because you chose to make a different decision from us; we disagree with you as a collective whole because what you're doing lacks common sense. You can't reinvent the wheel of genetics and we can't either. It takes many generations to see any remote changes in disease tolerance, and that's assuming all conditions are hypothetically equivalent.

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## Dr. Matt

Carlos,
If you let your dog outside believe me it is eating things that you would not like.  that is what an animal does.  yet if your dog has been let out since it was a puppy it has built up immunities to many many many things.  think of the parasites that are on rabbits. and dogs love to roll and eat rabbit droppings.  
these same rules apply to all living things.  easpecial an african frog.

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## Dr. Matt

that makes alot of sense, but why do mexicans drink their water? why couldnt i go to mexico and drink the water?  there are big deadly diseases, that are rare in the wild. and there are diseases that ,if done in small amounts, the immune system will destroy.  most of the time pet animals sucumb to small diseases because of their lack of immunity.  it is very rare to encounter the worlds most aggressively deadly ones.  Usualy the natural enviroment breaks these things down unless conditions are perfect for duplication of the terrible disease.  Now if i lived next to a toxic dump site or landfill runoff or a large cave, then i would worry to feed my frog wild things.  But i dont so as long as the animal looks healthy i will make a decision to feed it.   
I also dont think you guys have a clue of what your breeder rat facility looks like.  there are no guild lines of law for them to follow other than licensing of the business.  if you have an animal get sick from there feeders there is NOTHING that you can do to these facilities!  there is no way on earth you would prove anything to a court.  stop kidding yourselves and go take a roadtrip and take a walkthrew (IF THEY WILL EVEN LET YOU IN).  I know what a majority of rat breeding facilities look like.  It is usually out of some guys basement and stinks like amonia and flies fill the air.  the pet stores buy from the cheapest places.  I have known about this for a long time and am suprised at all your trust in "store bought".  there is way more risk in what you feed your frog than what you think.  Lija thinks her disease came from a plant, but i would put alot of money on her food supplier.  But never the less you will never prove it.  Rat breeders will continue to do what they do and if you lose a 9 year old frog due to a disease the facility let in, too bad for you.  wake up and welcome to reality.
Sparrows are safer than some store bought?  Yes

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## DeltaElite121

Matt, I don't think you have a firm understanding of how immunity works. It's not some numeric slider that says "YEP, WE'RE 85% IMMUNE TO INFECTIONS. WOOHOO, JUST A LITTLE MORE AND WE'RE MAXED!". You're dealing with things on a molecular and biological level... aka: genetics, and the concept of survival of the fittest. You might be able to strengthen your immune systems response in some regards, but you're not going to make yourself immune to everything out there just by exposing yourself to them in small amounts (and how you think you're going to measure that I'd like to know because you wouldn't).. particularly if your genetic makeup is pre-dispositioned to being weak against certain types of infections/parasites/diseases. These frogs have developed genetic traits that reflect immunity to their natural environment in AFRICA over thousands of years.... not several years, and certainly nothing over here that is native to this environment. Introduce them to a disease that their body has no way of coping with and you end up with massive fatalities... kind of like what happened when we brought smallpox over to the Native Americans and it completely wiped them out. It's the exact same reason why Americans aren't supposed to drink Mexico's water. If you let that water into our public drinking system there would be an epidemic, and people would be getting sick everywhere. Mexicans are immune because they're a branch from the Mayans, which have lived there and dealt with that environment for several thousand years... SAME THING as our frogs that we keep. Bring them over here and subject them to our diseases and I assure you they won't last long, even if they're allowed to build their immune system up. It just isn't that fast no matter how bad you want it to be. You MIGHT get a genetic mutation that formulates from a disease, but the chances of getting that are 1 in billions, so I hope you're feeling lucky. That's literally the only reason why Mexicans are still alive... traits that have aided towards those who DID survive towards the next generation; which may or may not strengthen those traits when passing them on.... that's for the next generation to see if it pans out. You have ONE generation of frog. You're not going to build a super immune frog. Not going to happen.

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## Dr. Matt

according to your logic then all white people should die if they drink mexician water.  that is so far from the truth it is laughable.  there are many many white people especially missionaries who, over time, can adapt to it.  now if they drink tons of it all at once, then yes they will get violently ill.  but if its done little by little, how you say, "woohoo" they are okay and can slowly drink more and more.  That is adapting which happens with every living thing slowly over time.  The best is if you start when your young.  you take a frog and every 10th feeding add a market bought local fish, then every 9th then 8th and so on. same with everything else.  if you use only healthy wild animals this risk becomes less and less.  then WOOHOO you have a old frog that is not only healthy but almost indestructible to anything.  The risk is in fact low and will become lower and lower over time just like when any new culture moves to a different land.  some cant handle to total sumergion into foreign areas but most do.  you have not taken "adaptation" into your equation and might want to look into what i am doing in a different way to understand it fully.
thanks for the info,  i really like the woohoo. (:

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## nok1888

The whole point is, why take the risk if there's no need to? I've fed hundreds of mice n rats to my snakes and only ever questioned one so it was binned. Vets may be able to cure parasites but why cause all that stress to your animal.

You seem to think your frog will out live others, I fear the poor frog is going to pay for your mistakes. 

Also, claiming that wild animals are as safe as controlled breeding is just being ignorant


-------------------------------------------
2.0 Border Collies - Jinky and Chance
3.0 Cats - Monty, Dodger and Crunchie
1.1 Royal Pythons Orlina and Sedrick
0.1 BCI Boa - Aasia
1.0 Western Hognose - Hagrid
0.1 Bearded Dragon - iiara

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## Dr. Matt

> The whole point is, why take the risk if there's no need to? I've fed hundreds of mice n rats to my snakes and only ever questioned one so it was binned. Vets may be able to cure parasites but why cause all that stress to your animal.
> 
> You seem to think your frog will out live others, I fear the poor frog is going to pay for your mistakes. 
> 
> Also, claiming that wild animals are as safe as controlled breeding is just being ignorant
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> 2.0 Border Collies - Jinky and Chance
> ...


Thats whats cool about this forum.  i think it will be around for the next 20 years so time will tell!  I think people have blinders on when they are assuming that store bought is safer than a healthy wild critter.  you can call me what ever you would like, but in time we will see.  I have had a Hippo tang (marine fish) live for 12 years now.  I have a toad stool coral that is almost 17 years old under my care.  so a frog that is nutritionally complete will easily live for many many years.  I may have different techniques but so far i have never been terribly wrong. i believe the risk i am taking is so small you need a microscope to even kind of see it.

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## nok1888

Well I pity the frog

Unsubscribing to this topic, it's pointless


-------------------------------------------
2.0 Border Collies - Jinky and Chance
3.0 Cats - Monty, Dodger and Crunchie
1.1 Royal Pythons Orlina and Sedrick
0.1 BCI Boa - Aasia
1.0 Western Hognose - Hagrid
0.1 Bearded Dragon - iiara

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## Dr. Matt

> Well I pity the frog
> 
> Unsubscribing to this topic, it's pointless
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> 2.0 Border Collies - Jinky and Chance
> 3.0 Cats - Monty, Dodger and Crunchie
> 1.1 Royal Pythons Orlina and Sedrick
> ...


I wish you wouldnt.  this topic is important for all the sickly under nurished frogs out there.  I want to get them healthy and happy.  people read your opinions and then read my common sense reponses and they feel better about feeding there hurting frogs some healthier diet plans.  Healthy wild animals are not only fun to get but fun to feed.  Plus have you seen my Mr. Pickles lately?  His color is so deep and rich and he NAILS anything i put in front of his face so fast you have to slow the video down just to see the action accurately.  I have an idea,  come up with some questions for me to answer and  then you might be blown away with how much common sense i give as a response.  dont give up

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## Jeff

> according to your logic then all white people should die if they drink mexician water.  that is so far from the truth it is laughable.  there are many many white people especially missionaries who, over time, can adapt to it.  now if they drink tons of it all at once, then yes they will get violently ill.  but if its done little by little, how you say, "woohoo" they are okay and can slowly drink more and more.


You shouldn't mis-interpret the quotes of others. In no where did DeltaElite121 say that all people would die under those circumstances - they said it would result in an epidemic and sickness. When I was in Peru I contracted Cholera from eating a few pieces of salad that had been rinsed with the water in Lima... I did not drink a ton of water at once. It was residual water on the salad from being rinsed and I still contracted the illness (and it was not fun, I should say!).

Anyway. You are entitled to do whatever you wish with your frog, and as has been stated (exhaustively, may I add) no one is saying you are a terrible owner...perhaps a bit stubborn [  :Wink:  ]...but not a terrible owner. One fear I have which may be shared amongst other members is the impact these suggestions have on new keepers. Keep in mind the sad truth that the majority of new frog owners do not do adequate research before buying and merely lurk on the forum or find answers to questions with a quick google search. By telling everyone it is okay to feed Wild Caught in its entirety, you can portray the wrong message to folks who may not be as careful about what they are feeding. I've been contributing to herp forums since 2003 and believe me, I have seen my fair share of cases of pet reptiles and amphibians who have succumb to some issue when fed a W/C prey item... be it a lightning bug, an insect that is toxic or feeds on a toxic host plant, or a parasite/pathogen that was picked up from feeding something; such as pinworms, hookworms, and flukes. For the majority of keepers, it is both safer and more practical to feed captive-bred.

As has been noted (exhaustively by both sides) there is a risk to ANYTHING you feed. But to think there is _less_ risk from a wild feeder compared to a captive-bred feeder is just downright silly. And again, there really isn't a need to build some kind of immunity to strengthen the organism when it is in a closed, captive environment that shouldn't result in introduction of said pathogen in the first place. The benefit of your methods is nutritional diversity, not adaptive immunity. 

Put simply: most of us just think the risk of feeding W/C outweighs the nutritional gains...especially those of us who already offer a plethora of different food options to promote variety. I think we will just have to agree to disagree here, because both parties are standing firm. As far as I'm concerned, unless someone has something DIFFERENT to add that hasn't been repeated numerous times in this thread already, the topic is dead.

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deranged chipmunk, GrifTheGreat

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## Dr. Matt

Jeff,
thank you for posting that info.  I am not trying to fight and since i have received no positive responses i will quit.  I respect you all!!!

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## Dr. Matt

> Jeff,
> thank you for posting that info.  I am not trying to fight and since i have received no positive responses i will quit.  I respect you all!!!


with this problem poking its head back up again with someone feeding some bad pet store bought silverside frozon feeder fish,  I thought i would readdress this issue.  
JUST BECAUSE YOU BOUGHT SOMETHING AT A PET STORE DOES NOT MEAN IT IS SAFE FOR YOUR FROG!
I still prefer chinese grocery store foods over pet store junk!  if it is safe for human consumption then it is a very very safe bet it is better quality than low standard pet store stuff!  plus it is alot more fun to pick out weird food for your frog there.  try it!

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## Cap10Squirty

Hmmmm....safe for humans = safe for frog?

Have you heard of sodium tripolyphosphate? It's a preservative that is found in nearly every single one of these "chinese grocery store foods" in particularly seafood. You can avoid it by buying fresh seafood that has not yet been packaged.

Oh and sodium tripolyphosphate is used in laundry detergent.........................................  ......

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## Tongue Flicker

I've been feeding my fish freshly killed bloody mosquitoes, my newts with small moths that i catch in my bathroom, my ACF with house spiders that i personally hunt  and my turtle with earthworms underneath my plant pots with no ill effects. Depends on your neighborhood and country where you're getting your wild feeders.

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## Kelsieb

> I wish you wouldnt.  this topic is important for all the sickly under nurished frogs out there.  I want to get them healthy and happy.  people read your opinions and then read my common sense reponses and they feel better about feeding there hurting frogs some healthier diet plans.  Healthy wild animals are not only fun to get but fun to feed.  Plus have you seen my Mr. Pickles lately?  His color is so deep and rich and he NAILS anything i put in front of his face so fast you have to slow the video down just to see the action accurately.  I have an idea,  come up with some questions for me to answer and  then you might be blown away with how much common sense i give as a response.  dont give up


Unless you live in Africa then you are not in fact feeding your AFRICAN pixie frog a 'natural' diet. The fact that you think your risky diet is so superior than a captive diet that all frogs not eating it are sickly and under nourished is delusional and, quite frankly, insulting. You are gambling with this wild diet and the fact that you are gambling with an innocent animals life kinda ticks me off. I can see and understand why some people have a short temper with you. I just hope your frog doesn't suffer from your ego trip.

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