# Frogs & Toads > Mantella & Other Mantellidae > Beginner Discussion >  Painted Mantella

## Pirarucu

I was hoping someone on here would be able to give me a more positive identification on this little girl(?). I purchased her as simply a "Painted Mantella", the seller got her in on accident with a shipment of dart frogs, and was unaware they had her until she was found six months later hiding in a leucomelas cage. I currently am leaning towards saying she is a madagascariensis due to the markings on her lower jaw, but I'd like to hear from some people who are more experienced in differentiating between madagascariensis and baroni.

----------


## bill

Can you get a more clearer pic of her chin? Or her eye?


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## Pirarucu

> Can you get a more clearer pic of her chin? Or her eye?


I'd rather not disturb her any more. The chin has the horseshoe mark characteristic of madagascariensis, and no other markings. The iris is brown, not black, also indicating madagascariensis.

However someone elsewhere suggested that it is neither, and is actually a pulchra. The brown legs have me thinking he's right.

----------


## bill

I saw that post  :Wink:  with the brown on the front legs, I would say m. Pulchra. They are a bit more mottled in color than the baroni or mad.  


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## TKexotics

Based on the brown front legs we believe it's indeed Mantella pulchra, since as far as we know neither madagascariensis or baroni has these, however better pictures would help giving a more definitive id.

Regardless what species it is, it's an awesome frog.  :Smile:

----------


## Pirarucu

To give a brief update, due to the orange flashmarks on the legs it has been determined she is most likely _M. madagascariensis_. Although brown legs are uncommon in the species, I have been able to find a few examples that also had them.

----------


## Joshua Ralph

Like I said on Facebook a short while ago, this does resemble _Mantella madgascarensis_. However, I think this may actually be a hybrid specimen, especially considering this is more than likely a WC individual anyway. 

This could well be a _Mantella pulchra x madagascarensis/baroni_ hybrid in my opinion... It is entirely possible and new colourations and _confer_ species are found all the time out in Madagascar.

Without DNA and genetic testing, I don't think you'll know for sure! But I can definitely say that this is crtainly and most definitely not, _Mantella pulchra_ (pictured below). It doesn't share any of the same colourations, especially on the front of the snout which your individual has markings on, except for the limbs that have a slight colouration.



I would be very dubious about putting this with other individuals, if this is indeed a hybrid specimen which it could be completely possible, then it could muck up potential bloodlines.

----------


## Pirarucu

> Like I said on Facebook a short while ago, this does resemble _Mantella madgascarensis_. However, I think this may actually be a hybrid specimen, especially considering this is more than likely a WC individual anyway. 
> 
> This could well be a _Mantella pulchra x madagascarensis/baroni_ hybrid in my opinion... It is entirely possible and new colourations and _confer_ species are found all the time out in Madagascar.
> 
> Without DNA and genetic testing, I don't think you'll know for sure! But I can definitely say that this is crtainly and most definitely not, _Mantella pulchra_ (pictured below). It doesn't share any of the same colourations, especially on the front of the snout which your individual has markings on, except for the limbs that have a slight colouration.
> 
> 
> 
> I would be very dubious about putting this with other individuals, if this is indeed a hybrid specimen which it could be completely possible, then it could muck up potential bloodlines.


I asked whether it may be a hybrid on Facebook, but the point was largely ignored so I dropped it. Only problem is, so far as I'm aware _M. pulchra_ is only sympatric with _M. baroni_, not _M. madagascariensis_. As this specimen shows no signs of being a _baroni_, if it is a hybrid it would be between _pulchra_ and _madagascariensis_. Therefore it is either CBB and a hybrid or WC and a _madagascariensis_.

----------


## Joshua Ralph

> I asked whether it may be a hybrid on Facebook, but the point was largely ignored so I dropped it. Only problem is, so far as I'm aware _M. pulchra_ is only sympatric with _M. baroni_, not _M. madagascariensis_. As this specimen shows no signs of being a _baroni_, if it is a hybrid it would be between _pulchra_ and _madagascariensis_. Therefore it is either CBB and a hybrid or WC and a _madagascariensis_.


I thought I said something about it? I did edit my comment through my ipad Facebook :/ in all honesty, this individual would have been WC due to the size of it, unless the chap you purchased from had kept a good few years. Unless it is coming into its colours (which I highly doubt due to the odd colouration at this size), this more than likely cam from the latest import from Madagascar which took place approximately 2-3 months ago now. Now being a hybrid is entirely possible,  I actually would put it right at the top of the list in all honesty, because all Mantella are more than capable to hybridise... You can see some really odd ones about aswell. 
But in all honesty,  you will never be able to find out unless you invested a bit of money into genetic identification,  would be interesting to find out though!

----------


## Pirarucu

> I thought I said something about it? I did edit my comment through my ipad Facebook :/ in all honesty, this individual would have been WC due to the size of it, unless the chap you purchased from had kept a good few years. Unless it is coming into its colours (which I highly doubt due to the odd colouration at this size), this more than likely cam from the latest import from Madagascar which took place approximately 2-3 months ago now. Now being a hybrid is entirely possible,  I actually would put it right at the top of the list in all honesty, because all Mantella are more than capable to hybridise... You can see some really odd ones about aswell. 
> But in all honesty,  you will never be able to find out unless you invested a bit of money into genetic identification,  would be interesting to find out though!


I never saw it. What group was it in? It didn't come in with the last shipment, they got her in with a bunch of dart frogs about six months ago. I agree that it's very possible that Mantellas can hybridize, my point is that if it is WC then it cannot be a _pulchra_/_madagascariensis_ cross because they do not share habitat.

----------


## Joshua Ralph

> I never saw it. What group was it in? It didn't come in with the last shipment, they got her in with a bunch of dart frogs about six months ago. I agree that it's very possible that Mantellas can hybridize, my point is that if it is WC then it cannot be a _pulchra_/_madagascariensis_ cross because they do not share habitat.


Think it was IMS. And there was also a shipment at around about October time, like there is every year so knowing that it was at 6 months at least that they found the individual, then it is still likely... I know this because the imports are normally advertised around Late August to September and then again in late December to January... 
Mantella species can hybridise, it isn't just a simple possibility lol but the whole point I am raising towards it being imported is, like with most exported individuals from Madagascar, they are kept mainly together, with different species so there wouldn't be simple Mantella aurantiaca groups or Mantella madagascarensis groups, and the gathering of individuals is done well in advance of the importation shipment departure. This could be a few months in advance...
Yes their distribution range doesn't concede with the two species, I know full well the distribution of all the genus, but after stating how imports are built up, I have explained my point a little better for you. 

There are, like I stated before, many confer species found within the distribution ranges of all the species, so it could also be a Confer individual... But like I said, you will never know what the individual will be, unless, have you asked for more information from the original seller?

EDIT - Infact it could well be a Confer specimen, like you would find with various specimens of M.crocea etc. I did find a photo that matched your individual somewhere on the web. I'll try and find it for you.

----------


## Pirarucu

> Think it was IMS. And there was also a shipment then at around about October time, like there is every year so knowing that it was at 6 months at least that they found the individual, then it is still likely...
> Mantella species can hybridise, it isn't just a simple possibility lol but the whole point I am raising towards it being imported is, like with most exported individuals from Madagascar, they are kept mainly together, with different species so there wouldn't be simple Mantella aurantiaca groups or Mantella madagascarensis groups, and the gathering of individuals is done well in advance of the importation shipment departure...
> Yes their distribution range doesn't concede with the two species, I know full well the distribution of all the genus, but after stating how imports are built up, I have explained my point a little better for you. 
> 
> There are, like I stated before, many confer species found within the distribution ranges of all the species, so it could also be a Confer individual... But like I said, you will never know what the individual will be, unless, have you asked for more information from the original seller?


Still don't see it, maybe someone deleted it. That's a good point though, to clarify you're saying that she could have been produced while the different species were housed together awaiting departure? I am trying to find the original seller currently. The place I bought it from didn't know much, since they didn't even know that they had her.
Also to clarify, what do you mean when you refer to "confer" species?

----------


## Joshua Ralph

> Still don't see it, maybe someone deleted it. That's a good point though, to clarify you're saying that she could have been produced while the different species were housed together awaiting departure? I am trying to find the original seller currently. The place I bought it from didn't know much, since they didn't even know that they had her.
> Also to clarify, what do you mean when you refer to "confer" species?


Bugger, for that I am apologetic! We'll least you got to see my full response now  :Smile:  and certainly, this is a high possibility in all honesty that could end up with various hybridise specimens being hatched out and surviving! Lol they could be housed for a great length of time before being departed in the import, your talking months... 

And well ell I think the best bet is finding the details out about where they got the D.leucomelas in all honesty.... Find their supplier and you will find out more...

and, you will commonly see a species having 'cf.' in the middle of their scientific naming which will look like Mantella.cf.madagascarensis. This basically means in Latin "consult" or you can interpret that as "compare", which normally means in regards to animal species, comparing two or more of the same species with a single irregular specimen which clearly isn't one or the other, but shows certain traits... 
You will see some unusual specimens of Mantella on your travels on the internet and if you look at the Conservation. international Pocket Guide of Mantella species, you will see a lot of oddly coloured M.milotympanum or M.crocea, these would be labeled or considered a confer species.

----------


## Pirarucu

> Bugger, for that I am apologetic! We'll least you got to see my full response now  and certainly, this is a high possibility in all honesty that could end up with various hybridise specimens being hatched out and surviving! Lol they could be housed for a great length of time before being departed in the import, your talking months... 
> 
> And well ell I think the best bet is finding the details out about where they got the D.leucomelas in all honesty.... Find their supplier and you will find out more...
> 
> and, you will commonly see a species having 'cf.' in the middle of their scientific naming which will look like Mantella.cf.madagascarensis. This basically means in Latin "consult" or you can interpret that as "compare", which normally means in regards to animal species, comparing two or more of the same species with a single irregular specimen which clearly isn't one or the other, but shows certain traits... 
> You will see some unusual specimens of Mantella on your travels on the internet and if you look at the Conservation. international Pocket Guide of Mantella species, you will see a lot of oddly coloured M.milotympanum or M.crocea, these would be labeled or considered a confer species.


Alright, thank you! 
As far as photos of similar individuals, I have found a few as well such as the one pictured on this page.
Mantella madagascariensis - Malagasy Painted Mantella
As well as this picture, which was labeled as "Mantella 'loppei' (madagascariensis?)". 
http://images.wildmadagascar.org/pic...arensis-02.gif
Mantella loppei is also mentioned on the amphibiacare page as an apparently erroneous name for a certain population of _M. madagascariensis_. As of now I am almost certain that this individual is from that population. I hope I can track down the original seller quickly and see if they have any left.

----------


## Joshua Ralph

> Alright, thank you! 
> As far as photos of similar individuals, I have found a few as well such as the one pictured on this page.
> Mantella madagascariensis - Malagasy Painted Mantella
> As well as this picture, which was labeled as "Mantella 'loppei' (madagascariensis?)". 
> http://images.wildmadagascar.org/pic...arensis-02.gif
> Mantella loppei is also mentioned on the amphibiacare page as an apparently erroneous name for a certain population of _M. madagascariensis_. As of now I am almost certain that this individual is from that population. I hope I can track down the original seller quickly and see if they have any left.


That was the individual, Mantella loppei which is on the page I found the other night whilst double checking for you. Looks like I don't need to find it now lol But that, is what you would call a confer specimen, so the individual, if it is indeed the one from the same population would be named Mantella cf madagascarensis. 

I wouldn't call it erroneous, there are an incredible amount of scientific papers and research journals that are put forward by people that get rejected on the basis that there isn't enough information or the findings need elaboration (describing a species is incredibly hard and not always accepted). The best example of a paper that needed resubmitting was one by Hou Mian concerning the final identification of Tylototriton yangi or otherwise known as Tylototriton.cf.kweichowensis, for many years!
There are still people that end up sticking with the naming though that don't want to confuse matters, which I would say is less erroneous than keeping what could be potential a completely species, with another species on the basis that it wasn't reclassified... Actually, I would say that was more clever for maintaining the species. 

However, without genetic testing though, you can not be certain completely, as you only have one source stating this information. It could be quite possibly Mantella loppei but it could also still be a hybrid...

----------


## Pirarucu

> That was the individual, Mantella loppei which is on the page I found the other night whilst double checking for you. Looks like I don't need to find it now lol But that, is what you would call a confer specimen, so the individual, if it is indeed the one from the same population would be named Mantella cf madagascarensis. 
> 
> I wouldn't call it erroneous, there are an incredible amount of scientific papers and research journals that are put forward by people that get rejected on the basis that there isn't enough information or the findings need elaboration (describing a species is incredibly hard and not always accepted). The best example of a paper that needed resubmitting was one by Hou Mian concerning the final identification of Tylototriton yangi or otherwise known as Tylototriton.cf.kweichowensis, for many years!
> There are still people that end up sticking with the naming though that don't want to confuse matters, which I would say is less erroneous than keeping what could be potential a completely species, with another species on the basis that it wasn't reclassified... Actually, I would say that was more clever for maintaining the species. 
> 
> However, without genetic testing though, you can not be certain completely, as you only have one source stating this information. It could be quite possibly Mantella loppei but it could also still be a hybrid...


I agree entirely on the differentiation between species, I was just saying that amphibiaweb mentioned it as an erroneous name. How would you suggest going about the genetic testing, and how much would it cost? I'm wondering whether it would be worth it to do so in order to know if I could house her with some others or if I should just leave her in her own cage.

----------


## Joshua Ralph

> How would you suggest going about the genetic testing, and how much would it cost? I'm wondering whether it would be worth it to do so in order to know if I could house her with some others or if I should just leave her in her own cage.


In all honesty, this would concern a conversation between yourself and a veterinary surgeon that could be of some assistance with Herptiles, however it would merely involve taking a swabbing from the specimen and it being sent off for genetic testing to determine the basis of the species identification. This causes no harm to the individual, but as for costings, I am not entirely sure, but I can find out for you.

----------

