# General Topics > General Discussion & News >  Too many frogs dying

## clownonfire

For the past month or so, I've been reading too many posts about frogs dying. And often enough, the death is not because of the animal, because the animal came in sick, or bad genes or, or, or... Often enough, the death is a consequence of poor husbandry: wrong environment for a frog species, too humid, not humid enough, not enough plants, a horizontal tank for a tree frog, feeding large crickets to thumbnail frogs... And we need to do something about this... 

A moderator on this board asked me when realizing that there were many White's and Red Eyed tree frogs dying lately: Are tree frogs really a good frog for beginners? Well, my answer is NO. The same as a dart frog would not be a good frog for a beginner: UNLESS you, the beginner will take the proper care of your frog. YOU, the beginner, will need to do some research before you get a frog, or make fast adjustments if you already have a frog and realize the requirements for your frog are not met. 

Would YOU keep a dog inside 4 days in a row without taking it to the park? Feed your cat a broccoli? No, you wouldn't. Yes, a frog looks cute at the pet shop and looks like it would make a lovely pet. But frogs have very specific requirements. They will be hardy only if you meet them. I am completely aware that when you see a tree frog at the pet shop in a very small enclosure without any branches you will end up thinking that is what such a frog needs. It's not. If you are on this board, and ask questions before you get a frog or because something seems wrong with your frogs, please, take our help openly. We want to help, but foremost, we do not want the frog to die. If we say your frog needs a vet, don't answer: I don't have XX$ to spend, what else can be done.... Nothing else can be done. Your frog will die. 

Frog Forum is a board for all spectrum of frog enthusiasts. It's a great place for general information. And I think this is why many of you are here. We are friendly, but many of us here are experts, and we want your frogs to be healthy. 

I cannot continue to read these posts and stay silent. Ask questions, inquire, and then DO WHAT'S BEST FOR YOUR FROG. If you were on Dendroboard, moderators and members wouldn't hesitate to tell you YOU ARE KILLING YOUR FROG.

So I'm sorry to say: You are killing your frog. Let us help you save it. Please.

If you think a frog is not for you at this point, it's ok. There's nothing wrong with that. Give your frog away to someone who will take care of it the way it needs to be cared for.

Eric

PS: I will bump this thread as long as I can, so that many of you read this.

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## bshmerlie

I have a couple of things to add.  We have all made mistakes....as newbies we all came to Frog Forum to make sure that we are doing everything we can do to ensure that are frogs live healthy and happy lives.  Remember frogs are not like a dog or a cat who can live comfortably within our environmental conditions.  For the most part the frogs we are dealing with here are tropical.  That means we need to duplicate a little piece of the rainforest and keep it stable in our homes. Think of it more like a saltwater aquarium.  Without the perfect balance the fish will get sick and die.  Well...the same with frogs.  They need their tropical enclosure to mimic the environment they are coming from. That's going to mean specific temps ..a specific humidity....the proper substrate...live plants...proper lighting for those plants....the proper size and type of food....supplements for the food.  ...etc ...etc

Most frogs are not difficult to keep.  BUT you do have to meet very specific environmental needs.  You also have to be willing to make changes quickly if something is not working. Don't think members are being mean if they don't think your setup is adequate for your frog.  Listen to suggestions and make the appropriate changes.  Don't procrastinate...some frogs wont make it that long ifnot properly cared for.  Once the frog is sick its so much harder.  Let's try and make sure it doesn't come to that.

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## berksmike

Whole heartedly agree with that mate . It is frustrating when people post asking basic husbandry questions after they have already got their frog/toad. Happens on all the forums.
Best way to keep your frogs alive is research research research BEFORE buying. 
We all lose frogs from time to time in this hobby - as with any pets - but it shouldnt be down to ignorance of the individual species needs. If in doubt, ask - preferably before you've opened your wallet.

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## Martin

Even though I'm new to frogs, I've had different pets for a long time. This is probably the best post I've read in a great while.

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## Brian

I was noticing the many death announcements as well. :Frown:  Anyone getting a new species of pet should be well acquainted with their care and be fully prepared to give it before their pet goes through their front door. Great frog care info is freely available here after all, as well as lots of info for even the thriftiest vivarium builder.





> Feed your cat a broccoli? No, you wouldn't.


No broccoli, but one of mine gets squash :Big Grin: . (In small doses and with the approval of our vet of course :Wink: )

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## clownonfire

I myself started being serious about frogs less than a year ago, although we did have a Cuban tree frog and fire-bellied toads which were all well taken cared for. 

When I got a bumblebee walking toad and a pair of Ranitomeya ventrimaculatus, I had done research before, and not everything was up to par. I had amazing help by Eric Walker for my BBWT, and Michael Lawrence for the Vents. And believe me all, getting feedback from Michael (Poison Beauties) is not always easy to read, and can be sometimes drastically to the point.... But he brought me to another level. Getting new frogs now is a whole process for me. Is a certain species the right one for me?  Can I afford to keep another one, or to buy everything that the species will need? In lament's terms: can I go all the way when it comes to owning the desired frogs?? If yes, then I'll move forward. If no, I'll refrain myself.

As many of you know, a week ago I acquired a trio of Atelopus hoogmoedi. Man, the reading I had to do before starting building the tank was quite something. And as info on this species is quite scarce on the net, I had to bug a few experts on different boards until I felt I had ALL the proper info on how to take care of them. Furthermore, I ended up having a female, which is great, but which also requires different husbandry. So Friday, I had to buy a new tank, and build one as fast as possible to do everything possible so the gravid female can lay her eggs before dying... 

My situation is extreme. I am fully involved in the hobby. But readers, and newcomers, make sure you know what will be needed of you when owning a frog.... Even if owning just one... 

I don't want to linger more as this post is already longer than I wanted it to be... But with all the knowledge I have acquired on frogs, I would still not own a pacman frog, or an African Clawed frog even if some say they are easy to care for, AS I DO NOT POSSESS THE INFORMATION NEEDED TO CATER TO THEIR NEEDS. 

Let's turn this around. I will help you. Cheri and all other moderators will help too. On this thread, there's *berksmike* and *Uncle Chester* that are EXTREMELY valuable resources to this forum. And so many others.... Don't be afraid to ask.  

I would be more afraid of our reactions if you did not ask and post about the death of your frog....

Eric

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## Trip

Great thread! Everyone should read this.

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## Tony

I called this a couple months ago when PetCo started the $20 RETF sale. If you're going to buy stressed out wild caught frogs you better know how to acclimate them. Unfortunately it seems that most of the people who have been buying them are inexperienced bargain hunters who get to find out the hard way that cheap frogs are rarely a bargain.

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## clownonfire

Thank you Tony. You're actually another great resource on this board that could be very helpful to newbies.

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## Don

Great thread Eric.   Sad part is, it will not end with the poor information provided a new pet owner at pretty much any of the major chain stores.

From being told you can mix species, to your comments on poor setups, much of this stems from the point of sale and their lack of interest and knowledge in the poor animal they are putting in the customers hands.
The customer thinks they are learning enough right at the point of sale.  They come home and over a few weeks fall in love with their newly acquired friend, and then soon after find they have done it all wrong and are now coming here to get our help.

If your reading this thread, take the advice given and run with it.  If you bought a pet, its in your hands to properly care for it.  Build a proper setup, don't ignore its needs, and provide the environment the animal requires.

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## berksmike

Maybe a precis of this thread should be posted as a sticky in all sections?

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## clownonfire

> Maybe a precis of this thread should be posted as a sticky in all sections?


It's a great idea. We could also add a link to the thread when welcoming new members. Might sound like a harsh, Hi and welcome to Frog Forum, but being proactive could save some frogs.

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## bshmerlie

I don't think "You're killing your frogs" is the best way to welcome people.  How about just the basic care of a frog attached to the welcome post.

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## clownonfire

> I don't think "You're killing your frogs" is the best way to welcome people.  How about just the basic care of a frog attached to the welcome post.


I personally would still add a carefully worded intro saying "_lately, there's been a lot of death.... if you have any question or if we can help you in any way...._" sort of way. 24 hours can make a difference in the life of a frog.

Similar to those warning messages we have in instances of heat waves or storm seasons....

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## larry b

Great thread.  :Big Applause:

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## bshmerlie

Yeah well....wait until summer hits. You're going to have a rash of people cooking their frogs because the heat catches them off guard. That's why I made that post awhile back.  So people start turning off the heatmats before its too late.

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## mommyof4froglovers

I am thankful to this site.  I  got my daughter her whites tree frog, asked petco all the questions and did research at home and still was wrong on so many things.  We are soon to get him a bigger tank it is to small but he is only 2 1/2 inces and is ok at this point.  We are talking about what we want to do with his tank and if we want to get him a friend. I told my husband and he agreed we are going to be asking lots of questions from you guys first.  I think this post was needed.

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## clownonfire

> I am thankful to this site.  I  got my daughter her whites tree frog, asked petco all the questions and did research at home and still was wrong on so many things.  We are soon to get him a bigger tank it is to small but he is only 2 1/2 inces and is ok at this point.  We are talking about what we want to do with his tank and if we want to get him a friend. I told my husband and he agreed we are going to be asking lots of questions from you guys first.  I think this post was needed.


This is great feedback. Education is the best way of improving  husbandry. And being willing to learn and improve is also of key. 

Eric

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## Kurt

> If we say your frog needs a vet, don't answer: I don't have XX$ to spend, what else can be done.... Nothing else can be done. Your frog will die.


God, I am so frustrated with this kind of response. It's one of the reasons I don't answer too many posts lately. Used to get the same kind of responses when I worked in the pet industry and suggested the customer should buy a book. I often got a "no thank you, don't need it."

I heard Kurt Schatzl, president of the NEHS, once say "If you can afford a vet, then you can't afford the animal." Kurt is a reptile guy, but this applies to all classes of animals.

I would also add, often when a frog or other wild animal (remember ALL frogs are wild animals) shows signs of illness its often too late to do anything about it. Prevention is the best kind of medicine. Well, besides laughter, but most frogs just don't get my jokes.  :Big Grin: 

Oh and the reason you are seeing so many White's and red-eyes, is because that's what the big chain stores are pushing these days. Particularly White's.

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## clownonfire

Bump. I've been reading about more sick frogs today...

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## Martin

Why not make it a sticky in every categori?

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## clownonfire

> Why not make it a sticky in every categori?


It's a great idea, VipeJr. We're working on it. For the time being, we will fanatically bump it as if there were no tomorrow!  :Frog Smile:

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## bshmerlie

> I would also add, often when a frog or other wild animal (remember ALL frogs are wild animals) shows signs of illness its often too late to do anything about it. Prevention is the best kind of medicine.


That is exactly why I said the other thread we have going on right now about how your tank looks really goes hand and hand. Setting up an appropriate and stable environment for your frog is extremely vital.  A stressed frog will eventually mean a sick frog. Also where you buy your frog from also matters.  Buying wild caught or from a large pet chain is not the ideal place.  They often come with parasites and diseases that a new frog owner is not equipped to handle. Buy captive bred frogs from a reliable breeder is the best way to start out with frogs.  Please be sure to research the frog species of your choice before you purchase them.  Again...check out the other thread I mentioned. 

Http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...look-like.html

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## clownonfire

There have been less posts about sick frogs or dead frogs, although still some.

Remember.... Take care of your frogs. If they are sick and need an herp vet, please make the necessary arrangements...

Eric

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## bshmerlie

Also summer is in full swing in a lot of states.  I've talked with some people who are already dealing with overheating issues with some tank temps getting into the 90s.  That's way too warm for a lot of frogs.  Please monitor your temps and check out the 10 day forecasts so you don't get caught off guard.

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## clownonfire

> Also summer is in full swing in a lot of states.  I've talked with some people who are already dealing with overheating issues with some tank temps getting into the 90s.  That's way too warm for a lot of frogs.  Please monitor your temps and check out the 10 day forecasts so you don't get caught off guard.


It's a very good point. We have horrid humid summers in Montreal, and had higher temperature than usual these past few days. Most of the frogs I keep don't tolerate high heat, but the _Phyllobates terribilis_ and the_ Atelopus hoogmoedi_ even less. So fans were installed in their tanks. 

Here's a tip: Make sure that if you install a fan in a tank where high humidity is needed that you increase your misting as stronger air circulation will dry up your tanks faster.

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## Amy

I was given my frog rather suddenly and had very little time to figure things out!  I did, however, read a million pages about caring for tree frogs (when I got my frog I didn't even know what kind it was!) and then shoot off to petsmart and buy the basics.  

It's been 8 days since I got that little frog.  I have been reading nonstop about care for it and asking questions as often as I can think of them.  I am constantly tweaking and revamping her habitat as needed this last week.

I'm actually enjoying caring for this little froggy so much I might consider getting another one in a few months!

My pets are my family members too though, so I cant imagine giving them less than the absolute best care.

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## ARMS87

The only amphibian species I've never lost any of them is my FBTs I've had them for years all in goo health, I have had DAFs for about a year I had 5 now I have 4, one got it's foot stuck and drowned.. 
I've had 4 Axolotl, 1 died of parasites. Had tons of FBNs lost 3 to fungal infection. 
I've had half a dozen Tree Frogs only 2 remain, 4 died, they looked like they had a fit, no idea what happened.

I always follow the caresheets but I still loose animals.

I'm happy keeping my FBTs and DAFs for now, would try FBNs again, but I'm realising I'm deffinately a reptile man..

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## Jeff Kennedy

Great thread with a lot of valid points within. To touch on what Tony says, unfortuneately, the almighty $$$ will always come in to play with most beginners in the hobby. Take it from someone that is in the show circuit. We are in an industry that preaches "captive bred". When we vend shows, they too are suppose to be captive bred. It doesn't take long to figure out that the promoters don't even care about enforcing this rule as the majority of vendors around you are peddling diseased, malnourished **** that they picked up for a couple of bucks. In my experience, some folks will actually pass on that bright eyed, plump and colorful frog being offered by someone that specializes in frogs and purchase a skinny, dehydrated, drab frog from a guy that is offering Savannah's, Green Iguanas, scorpions, frogs, etc, in filthy deli cups, just because it is $5 cheaper. Unfortuneately, the frog almost always dies, yet those same people will come back a month later and buy another "throw away" animal from the same vendors!! This has been the most troubling thing for me to witness. How many of the affordable frog species are now treated like the common goldfish. Instead of doing the research and trying to provide the right environment for your animal, they are purchased spur of the moment because they look "cool". Then when the frog stress's out because of it's environment or succumbs to diseases, the person just buys another one, goes back home and throws it in the same enclosure as the deceased one. My points for any newbie's, 1) Research, research, research!!! If you really love this stuff, then this is one of the most fun aspects of it all!! Learning about the animal and setting up the enclosure!!!. 2) Buy from a reputable breeder/vendor. There are a ton of the "good guys" out there who do this stuff for the love/education/preservation of these amazing animals. NOT FOR THE MONEY!!! In closing, ANYTHING can happen with frogs. That said, you can purchase from a reputable breeder, receive an amazing animal, place it in the perfect environment that you spent months planning and still have a frog pass away. This is part of life and can just happen at times, however if you follow just those 2 simple steps above, the chances of this happening go down drastically. I field emails and PM's daily from people pertaining to Pacs and Pyxies. It's the area that I am most versed in and welcome any questions or concerns that any of you guys might have. There are many others on this forum that specialize in other frog species that are just as eager to help people out.

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## clownonfire

> Great thread with a lot of valid points within. To touch on what Tony says, unfortuneately, the almighty $$$ will always come in to play with most beginners in the hobby. Take it from someone that is in the show circuit. We are in an industry that preaches "captive bred". When we vend shows, they too are suppose to be captive bred. It doesn't take long to figure out that the promoters don't even care about enforcing this rule as the majority of vendors around you are peddling diseased, malnourished **** that they picked up for a couple of bucks. In my experience, some folks will actually pass on that bright eyed, plump and colorful frog being offered by someone that specializes in frogs and purchase a skinny, dehydrated, drab frog from a guy that is offering Savannah's, Green Iguanas, scorpions, frogs, etc, in filthy deli cups, just because it is $5 cheaper. Unfortuneately, the frog almost always dies, yet those same people will come back a month later and buy another "throw away" animal from the same vendors!! This has been the most troubling thing for me to witness. How many of the affordable frog species are now treated like the common goldfish. Instead of doing the research and trying to provide the right environment for your animal, they are purchased spur of the moment because they look "cool". Then when the frog stress's out because of it's environment or succumbs to diseases, the person just buys another one, goes back home and throws it in the same enclosure as the deceased one. My points for any newbie's, 1) Research, research, research!!! If you really love this stuff, then this is one of the most fun aspects of it all!! Learning about the animal and setting up the enclosure!!!. 2) Buy from a reputable breeder/vendor. There are a ton of the "good guys" out there who do this stuff for the love/education/preservation of these amazing animals. NOT FOR THE MONEY!!! In closing, ANYTHING can happen with frogs. That said, you can purchase from a reputable breeder, receive an amazing animal, place it in the perfect environment that you spent months planning and still have a frog pass away. This is part of life and can just happen at times, however if you follow just those 2 simple steps above, the chances of this happening go down drastically. I field emails and PM's daily from people pertaining to Pacs and Pyxies. It's the area that I am most versed in and welcome any questions or concerns that any of you guys might have. There are many others on this forum that specialize in other frog species that are just as eager to help people out.


Those are very valid points, Jeff. You can have great husbandry and still have some mortality in your captive frogs. But as you said, one of the key is to make sure you have knowledge about your frogs. And to do so, you will have to research, asks questions, make mistakes, learn from your mistakes. And I know you preach what you teach. There's so care sheets on your website, which can be very beneficial for new Giant African Bullfrog owner, for example. 

Recently, I've seen a desire from new members on this board to learn, and an openness to receive a few tips or best practices by other hobbyists. It's quite reassuring!

Eric

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## Amy

I just feel like bumping this today  :Big Grin:

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## FrogFever

I have noticed all of the sick, urgent frog posts lately too. I myself am guilty of posting about a sick frog on this site and you guys have been so kind and quick in response to help me. I've always researched the net first before I asked questions, but not ALL answers are easy to find for the less common species. A Google search on the more serious, specific matters has many times lead me to this website for the proper answers. On a couple of occasions it seems that this site is the only place for the right help and we are all so grateful for that. I know I am. And yes, the basic husbandry of frogs SHOULD be known and put into action before purchasing animals, but unfortunately people are impulse buyers, particularly when its right in front of them at a chain store. 
No matter what question they have I think what people are looking for is a quick answer. ..I think it wouldn't hurt to make the SEARCH button a little more noticeable, somehow. (Its just a little button in the top right corner.) Then someone could very readily search for specific words or general phrases BEFORE they ask questions.... I'm not a moderator by any means, or even a senior member but I know that I didn't see the search button for the longest time. And boy is there a wealth of information no matter what you're looking for!  :Big Grin:

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## Brian

This is a very important thread.  It's good to lay all the facts out in the open, sobering as they are.

I think it might be a good idea to add some kind of checklist or pre-screening for froggy ownership e.g. "X things you need to know BEFORE bringing a frog home" under the Care Info section.  The "Choosing a Frog" section does cover some of this already, but it proceeds from the notion that the reader is already getting a frog.  What I'm proposing is something more cautionary.  We can parse the more experienced among the community for ideas and then distill it down to the essentials in simple, blunt language.  A few things I can think of right off the bat:

Take a deep breath.  Dial down the emotion from how cute or awesome the creature looks.  Think about the unpleasant aspects of pet keeping - poop collecting, tank cleaning, substrate/filter changing, buying feeders, visits to the vet.  Ask yourself:  Would I still want to do these things 3 weeks down the line?  What about 3 months?  3 years?  

Proper mentality - it's not about you.  The needs of the animal come first.  Your personal enjoyment should be derived FROM, NOT AT THE COST OF, the healthfulness of the animal. 

Do your homework LONG AHEAD of time.  Get educated on all aspects of the hobby - science, species, care info, housing, equipment, long term maintenance.  This is easier than ever with the Internet and forums such as these.  Figure out how much it will cost and how much frog you can afford.  Select the species accordingly.  Tell your family (not an optional step).  Get the habitat figured out, constructed, and, if applicable, grown in BEFORE purchasing a frog.  Also, begin researching a reputable a vet specializing in frog/amphibian care in your area BEFORE issues arise.  

When it comes to frogs, your gut urges are often WRONG.  You may have the urge to mix species in the same habitat; to cram multiple specimens in a small enclosure; to buy the most colorful and exotic looking species; to skimp on the details out of pennypinching or impatience; to touch the frog often; to hold it in your hand and have it perch on your shoulder like a parrot.  DONT.  Learn to separate the facts from your kneejerk reactions for the good of the animal, else you have no business keeping one.  

Take an honest appraisal of your life.  Are you a responsible person who has had the judgment, ethics and discipline to take good care of yourself and your charges?  If your own life is a mess; if you have trouble getting the bills paid; if your work keeps you too busy to so much as water a houseplant; the last thing you need is another mouth to feed.  In short, if you are unable to commit the time, resources, effort, and yes, disposable income for the long haul, you have no business owning a frog.

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## clownonfire

> This is a very important thread.  It's good to lay all the facts out in the open, sobering as they are.
> 
> I think it might be a good idea to add some kind of checklist or pre-screening for froggy ownership e.g. "X things you need to know BEFORE bringing a frog home" under the Care Info section.  The "Choosing a Frog" section does cover some of this already, but it proceeds from the notion that the reader is already getting a frog.  What I'm proposing is something more cautionary.  We can parse the more experienced among the community for ideas and then distill it down to the essentials in simple, blunt language.  A few things I can think of right off the bat:
> 
> Take a deep breath.  Dial down the emotion from how cute or awesome the creature looks.  Think about the unpleasant aspects of pet keeping - poop collecting, tank cleaning, substrate/filter changing, buying feeders, visits to the vet.  Ask yourself:  Would I still want to do these things 3 weeks down the line?  What about 3 months?  3 years?  
> 
> Proper mentality - it's not about you.  The needs of the animal come first.  Your personal enjoyment should be derived FROM, NOT AT THE COST OF, the healthfulness of the animal. 
> 
> Do your homework LONG AHEAD of time.  Get educated on all aspects of the hobby - science, species, care info, housing, equipment, long term maintenance.  This is easier than ever with the Internet and forums such as these.  Figure out how much it will cost and how much frog you can afford.  Select the species accordingly.  Tell your family (not an optional step).  Get the habitat figured out, constructed, and, if applicable, grown in BEFORE purchasing a frog.  Also, begin researching a reputable a vet specializing in frog/amphibian care in your area BEFORE issues arise.  
> ...


Brian, I honestly really appreciate your approach. I think you are spot on. A friend told me not too long ago when I shared this thread with her that it's similar to kittens and why they are so many stray cats out there... Often enough, a kid or other will see a kitten... It looks cute. Then the kitten grows, it's less cute, it need to be fed and to have its litter changed regularly and the novelty of the cute kitten passes.... And it's one more cat at the animal shelter....... Thanks Brian for sharing this. And yes, if you'd like, you could start writing this pre-check list and we could all help you out with it.

FrogWrangler, I'll see if it's possible to make the Search button bigger. In all fairness though, it's one of the most obvious ones if you compare it to other boards...

As for us appearing in Google when a search is done on sick frogs, it's great, but it's one step too late.... Some frogs will be sick, even with proper husbandry... But a very large number of frogs could be saved if research and proper care would have been given to the frog. Once you're here, it's often enough too late...

Again, I'm stressing this out, even with proper husbandry, death is still a reality: Deceased toad.

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