# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > General Discussion >  Dart frog price tags

## JBear

I have seen many diff. species(pretaining to newts/sals/and darts) being sold at very high costs. This is usually the result of rarity that the cost goes up. I can see both good and bad in this. 

The good:

Professionals are most likely to end up with them. This is good, due to *proven* ability to maintain and breed frogs at a professional level.

The bad:

The price of some of these species is so high that 90% of keepers simply can't even afford to try and populate the hobby with CB examples. I think there are many keepers(particularly those who do not frequent forums) that are more than capable of breeding some of the ridiculously high priced species. 

I think that high costs does more to keep a species rare, and does little to actually help CB population densities.

I want to be clear, I understand what a return on investment is, but once you break even, how ahead do you need to get? 

If the species is a rarity and you have made your return profit, why not choose to sell them at a reasonable price to people who have demonstrated ability to care for darts on all levels, and not sell them at expos? This would do more for the species well being than farming them at expos to Johnny Knows ****, but has $100's to spend on impulse. 

*I am not speaking from a position that I think I am capable of taking on these rarities*, in fact I am quite new. I do however know many people who do not come to these forums, but are exceptional keepers and have been breeding darts since they were available. A lot of those friends are not rich, and work hard to earn. Should these highly skilled keepers be denied the chance to contribute to a species based on cost and not ability?

I would love to hear any comments, and also, this thread was talking primarily about the pumilio's, and some other high enders...

Thanks!

JBear

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## Thomas

I agree on the fact that high prices keep people that are perfectly capable of breeding these species from obtaining them, this is something I've thought about before. I'm an undergrad in college and I would love to get into darts, but I just don't have the money to spend on even some of the more common species. Part of this for me is due to the fact that here in southwestern Missouri, it is very hard to find dart frogs, so basically the only ones available to me have to be shipped in from somewhere else. So by the time even the most common species gets to me, it's around $80 for one frog. The closest I've seen to a dart frog here is Climbing Mantellas at the local pet shop for about $55-$60 each. I definitely wouldn't say I'm a professional breeder, not even close, but I would certainly try if the prices weren't so high.

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## JBear

I thank you for the reply. This is exactly what I am talking about!

JBear

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## bshmerlie

Its sad to say but its simply about supply and demand. If the frog breeds easily and there are a lot of them on the market the price will drop. If there are only a few breeders out there breeding a particular frog then they will be able to ask for a hefty price when it comes to selling offspring.  Some people buy the rare frogs to breed them as a business to make money with. I don't see why that should be a bad thing. Its called capitalism and you see that in every hobby.  Besides I don't believe anyone is getting rich selling frogs. The amount of money that goes into keeping and maintaining the frogs with equipment and supplies im sure sucks up a lot of profit. Also being expensive does keep some rare frogs out of the hands of some amateur hobbiest that shouldn't have them in the first place.  The dart frog community is interlinked pretty well and youll see some breeders trading amongst themselves.  Get involved in the regional dart frog community in your local area and start making relationships. Sometimes its also who you know. :Smile:

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## Thomas

> Get involved in the regional dart frog community in your local area and start making relationships. Sometimes its also who you know.


I don't think that's an option for me. Like I mentioned earlier, It's hard to find dart frogs around here. Actually, it's hard to find any frogs around here. I've lived here my entire life and I've only seen Red-eyed tree frogs once at the local petshop. I got one when they were on sale for $40, thought I'd found an amazing deal. When I got crickets the other day, they said, "What are they for?" I told them they were for my Waxy Monkey frogs. They had no idea what I was talking about, they had never heard of them! So it's probably going to be a while before I get dart frogs.

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## bshmerlie

Yes living in a small town far from a big city is definately going to limit your options, but the internet is an amazing place. It allows you to get involved in the bigger community. Again it goes back to the relationships that you develop. I would have no problem giving away a frog to someone that I consider a friend on a forum.  Of course they would have to pay for shipping. Frog forum is a lot like family..so get to know the regulars and make friends.

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## Leefrogs

I find quite a few things posted here very disturbing. It's not sounding like capatilism to me, more like elitism. Usually the longer something out on the market the cheeper it becomes, then that increases the demand by poularity. And that u have frogs to give away only validates my point, if red eyes were 40 instead of 60, people might have baught two instead of just one.  You would have no frogs left to give away, loss eats up proffit. Anyway, to my main point, don't u think that keeping these prices high on certain animals also causes the decilne of wild populations. Doesn't high prices tempt the locals to take animals from the wild. Talk about putting frogs in the hands if a novice!!!!!! How many die in small containers before they're even sold to a broker who then sells them to the ELITE. Much like DeBeers holding onto diamonds to elevate prices, that's not supply and demand, that's greed. and that greed pushed locals to mine blood diamonds with slaves just to feed debeers stock of unrealeased diamonds. Death for nothing!!!!! Exept elitism.....

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## bshmerlie

First off I have never bred or sold any of my frogs. Do I plan on eventually breeding my red eyes? Absolutely!  Sometime in the next few months. I don't plan on making this a business and if I want to give some frogs away...they're mine to give away. There's been a couple of younger members here on this forum that I have already promised to give some free frogs to if I'm lucky enough to have a healthy clutch. That is what im talking about when I say get to be friends with other members in the frog community..I'm sure I will not be the first to give a free frog away to someone who maybecant afford them. If my Cobalts breed I would do the same with those offspring as well. I am not in this for the money....its just a hobby.  Secondly...its the buyers that drive the price not the sellers.  If people want to pay stupid money on something that is what keeps the price high.  I don't know how this went into diamonds but no one has to have a diamond stop buying them and the price will go down. Lastly, I have made it public knowledge that I don't believe that any frog should be taken from the wild. The hobby should sustain itself with captive bred frogs only.  But then could you imagine the price? Frogs then would only be had by the elite.

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## Leefrogs

There are WC common frogs all over the net. And why do u think that is? Because the price is so high. Diamonds was braught in as an example of what happens to other countries when we start to value what they have. If that wasn't odvious. And like debeers, and diamonds, innocent people (and animals) suffer, and the earth.  Locals may only get a few dollars, and each person gets more as it moves hand to hand.  And how many WC are probably marked CB. There's probably more than 50 posts on this site alone, where our gurus have told some1 their frog was probably WC. This cycle won't stop until the breeders bottom out price on red eyes, for example, then they will stop being harvested from the wild. But the breeders have to do that in order for it to work, since I cannot call up joshs frogs and offer them 5$ for a whites frog. Consumers certainly do not mark price. Don't we all wish.

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## poison beauties

What honestly drives up the prices are the hobbyists. To put more  attention on one species over another is all it takes. Keep in mind that  this supposed hobby is pretty much a collaboration of small business's  which is how the reptile hobby got to where it is. Id like to think we  put more science and teaching up front than other herpers do though.
   You will never stop the interest in a profit. In order for a breeder  to make a profit they have to breed the frogs which puts more of them  into the hobby which lowers the price or value of that frog. Like I said  before the only time I see this subject pop up is when someone cant  afford or get a hold of the frog they want whether they are experienced  enough to take it on or not. And like everyone else once they get that  frog the idea of dropping the prices to give others a deal go's away.  Everyone complained about the price of the veradero's until they got  their own, now they want to know how they got to be so cheap and want to  move onto the next fad.

Michael

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## wesleybrouwer

That is the best explenation there is out there  :Big Applause: 

Just wait untill no-one want to breed the "cheap" species anymore,
when they seem to be gone from the hobby and someone mention them again,
wait and see what prizes they will be again.

I must say not everyone experience the hobby this way, but i think there are enough people who believe they can make a living out of breeding their frogs.
My tought about it, it is a hobby, that is supposed to cost me money  :Wink: 

I think prizings are just what you wan't to give for something.
If everyone thinks it is to expensive, prizes had dropped already.
When there is so much available people also drop there prizes to sell of their offspring.

I bought myself 4 P.hosii a while ago, costing me well over 750 ($1000)
to me they are worth that since i was looking to get a hold of them for quit a while,
i just don't think i will be able to get my offspring sold for the same prizes  :Big Grin: 
If you wan't something realy bad, i think you will pay for it.
If you don't wan't to spend so much on a species, maybe you just don't wan't them badly enough.
In my opinion also something to guarantee only serious people start out with keeping/breeding the uncommon species.
After they succeed, more will become available for lower prizes, making it reachable for more people, they will provide even more offspring lowering the prize even more and so on.
This is not a bad thing in my point of view.
If uncommon species are sold for bottom prizes, more people will think, well i just try them out, making them less carefull to what they do.

People i don;t tell the prize of my toads don't like them,
they think i am crazy traveling from Amsterdam to France and back to get them.
The ones that do know what i had to spend think they are awesome.
So i must agree, for some species it is not even bad to be in the higher prize class  :Wink:

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## Thomas

> The amount of money that goes into keeping and maintaining the frogs with equipment and supplies im sure sucks up a lot of profit. Also being expensive does keep some rare frogs out of the hands of some amateur hobbiest that shouldn't have them in the first place. The dart frog community is interlinked pretty well and youll see some breeders trading amongst themselves. Get involved in the regional dart frog community in your local area and start making relationships. Sometimes its also who you know.


Looking back on this, I'd say that dart frogs are probably one of the cheapest frogs to breed and keep. They breed relatively easy compared to more common species like White's tree frogs and other tree frogs that require a lot more conditioning. They also consume very little compared to most frogs. Their food itself, fruit flies, is much easier to breed and more prolific than crickets or roaches that we feed to most other frogs. Space is another factor, and dart frogs require very little space to breed. So I'd have to say there are people out there that are making a pretty good profit of breeding dart frogs.

 If keepers just refused to pay the high prices for these frogs, this might lower the price or it could be a sign for breeders to turn away from these species entirely as the demand has decreased. If the species is hard to get in the wild and there is little demand for them in captivity, why breed or carry them? 

If only one breeder lowered his price (and his dart frogs were nice and healthy), the demand for his dart frogs would certainly overwhelm his supply. It would take the effort of several breeders simultaneously lowering their prices to effect a long term change. But who wants to do that when there are people out there willing to pay these high prices for them? And I would guess that even at such high prices, a lot people buying them shouldn't. Wesleybrouwer pointed out that if you want them bad enough, you will pay the high prices for them, however, I would absolutely love to have some of these rarer dart frog species (and I really want some _P. hosii_), but I simply do not have the funds to do so at the present cost of obtaining them.

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## Leefrogs

Did u see the new kid that's got picture perfect WC red eyes!!!! This so called well established species has been bread in captivity for what 50 years!!! Wild caught because prices are so damn high!!! WC established prices first, then breeders jumped on the band wagon. A sick cycle that CAN be stoped, especially now with chitrid, climate change, polutants, and clear cutting. Were just adding pressure on frogs by DELUDING ourselves thinking WC is not common. Get to the root, you'll find the worm

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## Woodsman

Hi Gingerlee,

Frogs are not collected from the wild because they are cheaper than captive-bred frogs, only because it is legal. If we want to eliminate the suffering that occurs to wild-collected animals and the damage it causes to wild populations, we have to bring pressure on the CITES process to close export of dart frogs from some of these countries (Panama and Madagascar account for over 90% of all exports of frogs worldwide and this should stop). Some of this work is already occuring,

I breed a lot of dart frogs and usually sell wholsale to a large retailer here in the Northeast. It is not easy to advertise frogs for sale, negotiate with all comers, and ship frogs around the country with a live arrival gaurantee.

The best advice I have been given in 14 years of rearing darts was that, if you are a good, dedicated breeders and behave responsibly, you should be able to sell enough frogs to pay for your expenses in the hobby. I have lived by these ideas and have been very happy in the hobby.

Take care, Richard.

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## Leefrogs

I also beleive that making ANYTHING illegal doesnt stop anything. That just makes price go up usually.  But I see what you're saying. Thanks for your responce.

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## bshmerlie

> I also beleive that making ANYTHING illegal doesnt stop anything. That just makes price go up usually.


There are many species that are endangered and not legal for import or sale in the US.  There are many countries that have made it illegal to export their frogs.
It does work so how can you say it doesn't help anything?  By the way,Captive Bred Red Eyes can easily be found for 20 bucks so" damn high" is an exaggeration. Unless of course,someone with 20 bucks is considered  the" elite".

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## Leefrogs

Did u see previous posts, they are 60 in stores, on sale, rarely for 40. Can be found and are found are different things. And those 20 dollar ones are probably old and/or maybe sick. And I'm sure there are plenty of endangered frogs in collections. Ever hear of smuggling?  the world is full of loop holes

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## pez

Ok, so here is how I see the situation.

Prices in some frogs may be high, yes we all know that. Frogs with high prices are also "rare" frogs, yes ok. But that is ok in some way because many of this frogs are wild caught, imagine for a moment what it would be if wild caught frogs were sold at 20$ in stores (Sadly there are some cases were this happens and some red eyed tree-frogs and other species are taken away from their habitat) there populations would decrease at a faster rate. Frogs would be affected not only by the chytrid fungus and the global warming, but also by the frog-keeping hobby. How would all of you feel if you knew that you are one of the main causes of the amphibian decline??? 

So, what i'm trying to say is that is not right to sell frogs at so expensive prices, nor taking them out of their natural habitat to then be the rest of their lives between glass walls. What should be done is that "frog sellers" should try to breed these expensive frogs (the ones that are wild caught), and in that way help amphibian populations in the wild.


Countries should have laws to protect frogs and ban exporting frogs. I think that all Agalychnis and the Cruziohyla calcarifer are listed on CITES II, and that Costa Rica banned the frog exporting but I have seen in other forums people that has an Agalychnis annae an endemic species from here, so all of us should think when we are about to buy a wild caught frog, and countries should try to help to preserve the ecology.

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## Leefrogs

I don't understand how Americans can actually pay locals in Mexico to protect monarch butterfly nesting sites and not do the same with frogs. It's because Americans don't collect monarchs. Why can't the same be done with frogs, it's a greed problem. They love them, but only when theyre in a tank. It's amphibian arks job to preserve special species. Not collectors or breeders or hobbiests. Once ark has done enough then its our turn.

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## JBear

I think the hobby itself is far too small for everyone who breeds darts as a hobby to pay the bills with. That is one of the probs. People think they are gonna live off of frogs and when no one is paying,they are left working a full time job and pissed about people undercutting them. In truth the frogs purchased at the "undercut" cost are just as healthy... Truth be told, if you were not breeding and establishing yourself years ago, you will never compete with the sponsors and make a living for any long duration. 

When and if my Tincs start breeding, it will be for trade, or $20 for 2 tads, or $20 for 1 froglet. That is reasonable, and I think good. However I won't pedal them to unknowns at expos for the sake of a dollar. I would only sell to people who at least have read and researched and preferably has experience with amphibs. 

JBear

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## poison beauties

the only thing JBear is that there are people making a living off just breeding dart frogs. I know a few of them and others that live off what they made in the hobby as far as frogs, bugs and supply sales go. 
I do agree that a sale for no other purpose than to make a buck is not needed when there are many hobbyists out there that will do the research before buying. In the last 11 years I have bred and sold a few thousand dart frogs with every one being sold under market value or below board prices but I have had waitlists for most frogs or other means of selling them to qualified herp shops but not everyone is that lucky. If your going to sell them on the boards why not let them go at market value? Underpricing them creates issues in the long run and can drive some species out of the hobby while others are looked at as cheap beginners frogs. I find it funny how the average new hobbyists gets on the boards and posts want ads for sexed or proven pairs before they have even gotten the experience to care for the frogs they want to breed them. I see it as only one reason, to make money. Somehow this hobby turned into a collaboration of many small business's trading frogs back and forth.
To under value a frog and flood the market with them by selling them dirt cheap only hurts the frogs stability in the hobby. When I got into this hobby there was no classifieds full of sexed or proven pairs. you had to do the work yourself.

Michael

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## landshark

Going back to the red eyed tree frog issue, nearly all of the ones I've seen in the local stores are captive born froglets ranging $29-$39.

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## bshmerlie

Baby red eyes are often sold for $20.

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## Leefrogs

ya, and wild caught painted mantellas (flown from madagascar) are 30$ captive born ones are twice that

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## VicSkimmr

Wild caught frogs will _always_ be cheaper than the captive bred equivalent. There is significantly less work (read: cost) involved with providing a wild caught frog.

Let's take R. benedicta for example. Yes they cost a lot of money, as they were just recently brought legally into the hobby, and just recently begun being captive bred. Eventually supply will increase, driving down the cost to a reasonable level. In the mean time, should Mark Pepper eat the costs of all the time and expense he's had to put in to bring them into the hobby just so that every newbie frog keeper can have some? If not Mark, should the first adopters who paid his prices to get them eat all of their extra expense associated with purchasing them? 

Is it even right to undercut Mark and all the hard work he put in? Prices on some morphs have decreased dramatically already. This is a lot like the car community and wheels. A company, lets say Volk, designs a great wheel in the TE-37. They spend loads of money in R&D to bring it to the public. Then another company, Rota, simply copies the design and offers it for 25% of the cost of buying the Volk. Is that right? 

The fact is that this is an expensive hobby, there's no way around it. If you can't afford to buy what's "hot" right now, wait a few years until they drop in price. Breeders charge a price that buyers are willing to pay, that's just how it works. If the buyers decided it wasn't worth the cost, the market value would drop. If you'd like to help drive the cost down, feel free to go out and purchase expensive frogs and then sell them for pennies on the dollar. Nobody is stopping you.

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