# Frogs & Toads > Fire Belly Toads (Bombina) >  First frog tank ever. Probably need help

## Colorblizzle

I am going to setup soon a 10g FBT tank for my son. He talked me into getting a frog the other day (which wasn't hard to do) so we went to Petco and bought a 10g Zola reptile tropical kit. It came with a lot of random things

-tank w/ screen lid
-5.5" dome light with 25UVB daylight blue bulb
-green carpet thing (gave to kids as a toy)
-thermometer/hygrometer
-under tank heat pad (not sure if need)

I know I need about half water but how deep can I go? I'm planning on buying a tetra fauna reptofilter which seems like it may be overkill (less than 4g of water with a. Filter that does 90gph) 

I'm going to use exoteric plantation soil, I'm going to plant the tank eventually but not to begin with. And I want to add a 20" t8 strip. What the best bulb to buy?

I'm going to get flickers orange cube cricket food is that good enough or will I still need to dust them? I plan on making the land section if the tank roughly 3" up but what can I out under the land? I work with plastics so I already made a few False bottoms to play around with but what goes under them? I thought about just a lot of gravel but I'm pretty sure nasty stuff would get trapped under there and never make it to the filter. Then I thought large rocks. Also thought maybe styrofoam. What really is the best and most used option? If I did a dirt tank the water would permanently be black 

Also I've heard of people smearing silicone on the back and sides and sticking bunched up miss to it to create a wall to help the frogs feel safer. Will that work? 

I have many more questions and concerns but I figure I'll let people respond to these to get me started in some research maybe. Any and all questions or Simmental are welcome. Just keep in mind in a complete newb. I kept a created gecko years ago and didn't really know how to care for him. And I currently and for the last 4 years have been keeping and breeding fish. So the aquatic part of the tank I've got covered lol

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## rainvenezia

Fire bellies do well in temps about 72-75.  no heat source is needed really, in fact to breed it is suggested to put in fridge for some time before hand 
Lighting is regular bulb. not too much heat coming off
I use pond rocks rather then gravel.  gravel can be accidentally eaten 
I have 50/50 land and water.  my water levels change from shallow to deep by piling rocks.  they stay in the shallow most of the time
Fire bellies like to hid so be sure to provide a covered area. 
I use moss on land to keep humidity in tank and spray it daily.  use water conditioner on tap water before putting frog in tank. 
I only use calcium dust about once every 4th feeding but I use the orange cubes which helps gut load and calcium isn't a must.

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## Colorblizzle

Great info. Thank you! I'm planning in getting a regular t8 bulb. Possible something in the 6700k spectrum just to help with the floating and terrestrial plants. 

Pond stones? How large are they? I want something hat I won't be able to see the glass underneath. Thought about sand but idk. 

My house stays 70-78 year round so that's good. Is it good to have a hot spot for them tho? And I want to do live plants what are good species that stay small and I can plant in coconut fiber?

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

Welcome to the Forum!

I have never kept fire bellies before but I can offer this,
PM deranged chipmunk 
He is the king of setting up viviarums.
He can save you a lot of time and headaches.

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deranged chipmunk

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## Colorblizzle

Awesome ill message him as soon as I get a chance

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## rainvenezia

It is not recommended because of parasites, but I use vines, they thrive in water and on land and do great under almost any light source.  I also buy terrarium plants from pet smart in the aquarium  section, they will state wither they are full submersible or half submersible.  ferns are good also but can be complicated.  My tank doesn't have a green thumb.  
I bought a bag of rocks from home depot that you would use as flowerbed covering. I have a large range of sizes in my tank.  I cant see the bottom.  the land side I use small gravel so my plants have room to root but I cover it with moss. 
I have a small watt bulb on one side and a florescent on the other to help with plant growth. 
I've posted some pics on my profile of my 10 gallon for ideas.  I've googled images of fire belly setups and there are some really good ideas, there are some bad ones as well.  I fully agree with a pond environment not land.

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## Colorblizzle

Alright thanks. I will look at your 10g as soon as I get a chance. I didn't contact deranged chipmunk yet but I did however look at his posts. Amazing, but way too skilled for me to try to replicate, at least at this point. And what shouldn't i do because of parasites?

Also I have a little bit of a green thumb and I keep planted fishtanks so as far as fully aquatic plans I got that covered. I would LOVE some small ferns, but what at so complicated about them?

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## rainvenezia

The vines are not recommended because of parasites, I cut mine down outside off trees and such.  However I've never had a problem in the past doing this. I make sure the vine that I choose isn't touching the ground and is a freshly grown vine. 
There are some really advanced tanks that I cant duplicate either. Would love to have a dozen different setups but I just don't have the room
I killed my ferns probably because I messed with them too much. I tried them on both wet and dry areas and they just died off.

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## bill

I am at work with a dead phone battery. But when I get home this evening, I will try to answer your questions best that I can

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## Colorblizzle

Rain, If I do vines I'll probably do the fake "reptovines" my local pet store carries. And the types of rocks your using in your aquatic areas is what I was thnkng of using UNDER my land area. I hope I can find and use small ferns. 

Chipmunk, after looking at some of your posts and all of your pictures I am looking forward to your input....I just hope I can follow along lol

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## Colorblizzle

Also rainvenezia, the lighting...is the yellower bulb on the right a heat lamp?

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## bill

> I am going to setup soon a 10g FBT tank for my son. He talked me into getting a frog the other day (which wasn't hard to do) so we went to Petco and bought a 10g Zola reptile tropical kit. It came with a lot of random things
> 
> -tank w/ screen lid
> -5.5" dome light with 25UVB daylight blue bulb
> -green carpet thing (gave to kids as a toy)
> -thermometer/hygrometer
> -under tank heat pad (not sure if need)
> 
> I know I need about half water but how deep can I go? I'm planning on buying a tetra fauna reptofilter which seems like it may be overkill (less than 4g of water with a. Filter that does 90gph) 
> ...


in answer to the question about what goes under the false bottom, nothing, hence the reason it is called a false BOTTOM  :Smile:  a 3 inch false bottom does not leave much room for water. i'll break the math down easy. if you cut your supports at 3 inches, this is what you have left: assuming you have a minimum of an inch of substrate in your aquatic section, you are now down to 2" of water. now, if you fill the water all the way to the bottom of the false bottom, water will be wicked up into your terrestrial sunbstrate, creating a bog. in order to avoid this, it's best to keep your water level about an inch below the false bottom. that will leave you with an inch of water, which is cool if you want to keep it very shallow, but, if you want to add anything else in there, like fish, it's just not going to happen. 

soil under the water does not turn the water black. all my tanks, whether they be a paludarium or a planted tank, ALWAYS have soil in them. i won't grow plants where water is concerned without it. "black water" comes from the tannins in wood, not in soil. ocofiber doesn't have any tanning in it, so there's no concern of that causing black water. personally, i love black water tanks and have built several black water tetra tanks in my past.

most people silicone the sides of the tank to either black out the tank so you can't see the inner workings of the background. it also gives spray foam a little more bite to adhere to the sides. yes, covering 3 sides of the tank makes a frog feel more secure, but it is not mandatory. personally, to cover up the foam and stuff, i use black shelf paper on the outside of the tank. it's easily removed, silicone is not.

hope that gets you started.any questions, feel free to ask.

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## Colorblizzle

So from the top of the false bottoms to the bottom of the tank is empty I can see how that works now but what do I use as walls? To actually seperate the aquatic portion with the under the false bottoms portion?

And as far as soil not causing black water I am aware of this. I keep fish that's my main hobby. I have about 150+ fish right now. My son however wants a frog. So I'm trying to branch out a little. And if I learned anything when starting fish keeping it's do as much research as you can before you start, and even then your still wrong lol. I am in the middle of starting a soil substrate tank actually so I know how it clouds the water but doesn't stain it.

Keeping with the soil topic are you saying it's better to use soil on the land section rather than coconut fiber stuff?

Someday if I like how this goes I may get bigger with a 40 breeder and see where that takes me. If I do I'll definitely do a larger water section and add fish or at least snails and shrimp. But in a 10g I'm gonna just stick with 2-3 FBT's.

Now in my fish hobby other than great deals on Craigslist or good sales I have found it usually costs around $10 per gallon to set a tank up. (Sometimes more...my 55g cost $850) but what can expect in this hobby? I was only cleared to do this project by my boss (the woman glaring at me on the couch as I type this lol) if I could do the whole thing for under $100. Frogs not included. I already spent $40 on the above listed materials. Can the rest be done for $60??

Also lastly I'm planning on he smallest size of tetra fauna reptofilter. It's rated at 90gph which in my eyes means realistically after media considers MAYBE it does 75gph. But with a gallon if water or less isn't that complete overkill? Do I even need a filter? Stupid question to me, of course I need a filter Butnidk if hey make anything that does say 25gph or less. 

Still so much to look into

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## bill

> So from the top of the false bottoms to the bottom of the tank is empty I can see how that works now but what do I use as walls? To actually seperate the aquatic portion with the under the false bottoms portion?
> 
> And as far as soil not causing black water I am aware of this. I keep fish that's my main hobby. I have about 150+ fish right now. My son however wants a frog. So I'm trying to branch out a little. And if I learned anything when starting fish keeping it's do as much research as you can before you start, and even then your still wrong lol. I am in the middle of starting a soil substrate tank actually so I know how it clouds the water but doesn't stain it.
> 
> Keeping with the soil topic are you saying it's better to use soil on the land section rather than coconut fiber stuff?
> 
> Someday if I like how this goes I may get bigger with a 40 breeder and see where that takes me. If I do I'll definitely do a larger water section and add fish or at least snails and shrimp. But in a 10g I'm gonna just stick with 2-3 FBT's.
> 
> Now in my fish hobby other than great deals on Craigslist or good sales I have found it usually costs around $10 per gallon to set a tank up. (Sometimes more...my 55g cost $850) but what can expect in this hobby? I was only cleared to do this project by my boss (the woman glaring at me on the couch as I type this lol) if I could do the whole thing for under $100. Frogs not included. I already spent $40 on the above listed materials. Can the rest be done for $60??
> ...


to separate aquatic from terrestrial portions, you can just use egg crate attached vertically. the cover it in screen or landscape fabric.

$10/gallon? HAHAHA!! i got an honest chuckle out of that one. sorry, not making fun, but i can honestly say that not one of my planted tanks even came close to $10/gallon. my 75 had close to $1000 in plants alone. mostly rare crypts. add a fluval fx5 to that, co2 bottle, regulator, t5ho lighting and i was probably closer to $2000. money well spent in my opinion, but not the bed bully's lol this was it after a serious trim, right before i had to break it down before i moved.


i won't even tell you what i had into my 125 before that was turned into a paludarium. lol

i can't really say how much it will cost. depends on what you have left, if you run into any problems,ect. as far as the filter goes, you keep aquatics, so you know there is never a such thing as overkill when it comes to filtration. i tell everyone, when it comes to life support (filters, heaters, ect) don't skimp. my newest tank will be running an eheim 2213 and will probably only hold about 6 gallons of water or so. sure, it may be considered "overkill", but frogs need clean water and the more it runs through the filter, the better, in my opinion. of course, i only run bio materials in my filters, so the extra volume can only help. keep in mind also, smaller volumes of water are more difficult to keep parameters stable. you could also go with something like a fluval nano filter. i ran one of those under the false bottom of my mantella tank and my water was crystal clear.

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## Colorblizzle

Well $10 per gallon is hardware cost. And I don't run co2. This is also Not including any fish or plants lol. I have an eheim 2217 running on my 62g planted right now and it works great. 

Overkill in filtration yeah I understand but still...in my 55g I run a total filtration of 1000gph (as the manufacturers would have you believe) but still at least 850. Which after rocks and everything is considered would still be a turnover rate of around 20x. But 90gph in 1g of water (90x) seems crazy to me but if you've done it and say it is just fine I'll trust it.

I've looked at the fluval nano I honk, has a built in spray bar comes of the top to the side right? Would you prefer that to a reptofilter? I also only use biomedia for te most part. A sponge as well but I consider that more bio than mechanical in my tanks as religious as I am with my water changes. 

I don't want to use a heater in this tank but could I potential use the heating pad under the aquatic section? Or is that unnecessary and the pad would serve better use maybe under the cricket tank?

I have some leftover egg rate laying around here somewhere I'll put gat to good use. But what is his landscape fabric you speak of. I'm not familiar with it at all. Seen it in your mantella build but was confused by what exactly it is. 

And when I said using silicone on the sides and back fort the background I meant to stick miss to directly to create a background. I'm not planning in using any spray foam. Although I do have drylok Laying around from my background build in my 55g...

And I always black out my tanks. I already have the back painted, just not the sides yet because my iance hates when I do hat. She wants more rehab one viewing angle lol

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## bill

the reptofilter is not bad. gives a nice waterfall action some frogs seem to like. it all depends on your design really. i prefer using pumps to move water, but i have used the reptofilter (well a whisper 10i, about $5 cheaper, same filter) in a 20L fbt tank i built for my kid. i got my fluval nano with an ebi kit my wife bought me for christmas one year when i was breeding shrimp, and have loved it from day one. the down side being is that it would be under the false bottom, so routine maintenance needs to be taken into account when designing the tank. 

under no circumstances should you ever put a hot heating element under a tank with water in it. cool water, hot element could equal cracked tank and a mess on your floor.  :Frown: 

landscaping fabric is what they use to keep sunlight from reaching the ground under mulch, rocks, ect. it is sometimes called weed blocker. 

if you want to do something different and have multiple viewing angles, you could always build an island tank. built the tank so that it is perpendicular to the wall instead of running lengthwise, like a normal tank. then you will have 3 viewing angles to choose from. i have seen many dart frog tanks built that way.  :Smile:

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## bill

oh, and i gotta warn you, in case no one has yet, frogs, are addictive!! worse than aquatics! i kept all kinds of aquaria for over 30 years. fresh, marine, did planted tanks for a decade, and then i got into paludariums, then frogs, and i haven't kept a fish tank since!!LOL i don't know how it happens, we just become assimilated..lol

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## Colorblizzle

I like your idea of the island tank idea. More a peninsula but something to run with. :-) I'll look into the "weed blocker" stuff.

The filter under the false bottom sounds good to me out of sight out of mind BUT how to get it out to clean it without destroying everything I built every week. Idk lol.

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## bill

> I like your idea of the island tank idea. More a peninsula but something to run with. :-) I'll look into the "weed blocker" stuff.
> 
> The filter under the false bottom sounds good to me out of sight out of mind BUT how to get it out to clean it without destroying everything I built every week. Idk lol.


i build a maintenance tunnel into every tank i build so i can access equipment for maintenance or failure. some people design in trap doors for this.

why would you clean your filter every week??

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## Colorblizzle

Well I plan on getting a fish room when I get a house. I enjoy the trial and error of getting my fish to breed then raising the fry. I currently only have 5 tanks totaling 152g's but I'm also in an upstairs apartment lol. I can believe its addictive. I once only wanted a fishtank now I want and feel I need at least 30 LMAO. I would like to do a 2' deep 6' tank and do it a paludarium with frogs and geckos etc. But also have a huge "pond" in there for my cichlids. At least 50g worth :-) African cichlids....there's African frogs right? Lol

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## Colorblizzle

I run 2 filters on all my fishtanks my maintenance schedule since I do dense bioload is to do a cleaning every week. Rinsing biomedia and the sponge in one filter on alternate weeks. And once a month give the sand a thorough cleaning

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## Colorblizzle

So I guess I'm jut used to weekly filter cleaning. How often with just 2-3 frogs will it be necessary in my tank?

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## bill

At one point I had over 20 tanks going.  

African frogs, absolutely. Not a LOT available in the hobby from mainland Africa. But they are quite a few tree frogs and reed frogs from Madagascar available, as well as what I keep, mantellas, the old world dart frogs  :Smile: 

Even in a 180, keeping frogs and geckos is a monster challenge. First, they would need to be from the same locale. Second, they have different care requirements. Third, most people do it wrong, they pick two arboreal species. If you went with an arboreal gecko, like a day gecko and a mostly terrestrial frog or a toad, it becomes a bit more feasible. But still a challenge for even the most skilled expert. There are so many more items I could point out about how difficult it is to successfully pull off.

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## bill

I clean my filters annually. Have done it that way forever lol you're only really going to have urine as waste as long as you spot clean the poo. And nitrifying bacteria in the soil and your filter will take care of that easily.

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## Colorblizzle

Well it's likely not to happen either for me but it would still be cool to see. A slice if nature in my own home. I had a giant day gecko once. Loved to look at that thing until it's tail fell off, grew back but discolored. If I even looked at it wrong it took off like a bolt of lighting. My old created gecko tho he was ugly as it gets from battles with the day gecko and from his tail never growing back but at least I could hold him lol

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## Colorblizzle

I'll clean as much feces as I can find but I was planning in spending too much time looking. I figure compost for the plants lol. Annually sounds good. Really like the sound of that...

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## s6t6nic6l

hi

I have a build log for a FBT setup here: Fire Belly Toad Terrarium Project 1 Photos by s6t6nic6l | Photobucket

depending how bored you are and time spare for a full read the pages 24 to 31 may be of interest to you and if you read the notes accompanying the pics you will get an understanding for the methods used throughout the build which benefits the toads as well as yourself regarding minor maintenance needed with such a set up.

nic

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## Colorblizzle

Thanks nic! I will read when I get a second

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## Colorblizzle

For some reason your photobucket album won't load for me. I get nothing. Do you by chance have a build log on the forum?

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## s6t6nic6l

http://www.frogforum.net/fire-belly-...-new-look.html

you maybe can get into photobucket by this thread otherwise it could be your settings!

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## Colorblizzle

I copied the link into my browser idk.

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## s6t6nic6l

sorry posted wrong link in that post then, try now

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## Colorblizzle

Wasn't able to see the photo bucket content once again but I was able to see some pictures that you posted seperate let. Looks awesome s6t6nicl!

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## Colorblizzle

So let's see where am I, I bought the eggcrate and I've pieced together and silicones all the eggcrate together how I want. It's a perfect fit for the tank BUT so perfect that I can't get the eggcrate in without removing the trim. So I'm going to have to carefully trim it somehow. 

Also I'm going to go pickup the weedblocker tomorrow, looked all over today and since it's winter most places no longer carry it but I found one. After that I just have to find good topsoil (again it's winter)

Once I'm ready to assemble how do I attach the weedblocker to the eggcrate? I'm planning on just siliconing it but figured is ask first...I'll post. Pic of the structure in the morning

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## Paul

You don't need to attach it to the egg crate. Cut it so it is roughly 1 inch to 2 inches long on all side and lay it on top of the egg crate your substrate will hold it in place.

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## Carlos

Hello and welcome to FF and your first build!  Kind of got late here; but got a couple tips for you.  If the kit you bought was for a terrarium (i.e. a Tetra kit with screen top) those can be filled with water to around 1/4 to 1/3 of it's depth only.  Bill gave you good info and his build threads are very informative.  Besides glue, can use zip ties to hold pieces of plastic egg crate together.

Following article has great information on FBTs:  Frog Forum - Fire-Bellied Toad Care and Breeding - Bombina orientalis and relatives.  If you have not bought filter yet; can use a small air pump with sponge filter or one of the smaller Supreme Ovation internal filters made by Danner.  Your T8 bulb should max out near 6,500K if plants are planned.

Do not use the Fluker's Orange cubes; they are not good.  Feed insects (sized same as distance between frog's eyes): veggies (carrots and lettuce) and cereals (oats and cherios) for 24-48 hours before use.  Also, you can use supplements according to this info:  http://www.frogforum.net/food-feeder...schedules.html.  Hope this helps a bit and good luck  :Smile:  !

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## Colorblizzle

I keep planted aquariums I know what spectrum I need for that I was just confused in what I need for the frogs. Setup came with  a 25UVB bulb as well. Setup will only have 3" of water. The eggcrate is already held together solid with silicone. I know the soil will hold the fabric to the eggcrate but I also need the fabric on the sides. That's why I wonder how to attach. I did purchase the filter already btw. It's the fluval nano, I'm going to have it recessed in the land area and spray into stones and drip down back into the water area

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## Colorblizzle

This is how I have my eggcrate both put together and shown in its 3 seperate pieces. As 1 piece I wasn't able to fit the bottom in the tank. Perfect fit! But the trim got in the way. This plus the tank itself is as far as I am do far. I have more supplies, just don't have anything laid out just yet. Next step is the weedblocker (which apparently is seasonal but I bought on amazon today, coming soon) in assuming I can silicone it to the eggcrate??

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## Paul

> assuming I can silicone it to the eggcrate??


You can, I have seen videos of people doing that. I just lay it over the egg crate and use the weight of the substrate to hold it in place.

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## Colorblizzle

And that's exactly what I'm planning on doing for the too where the substrate will sit, BUT on the sides where it dips into the water there's nothing to hold it in place

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## Paul

Ive seen people use fishing line to type it, Glue it, Silicone it. Sky's really the limit as long as it isn't toxic. You could also use rocks to sit on the edge of it at the waterline. 

Short answer, Siliconing it there would.

I don't have your mental vision of how it all will look, but I am assuming you want it to hide the egg crate as well as filter the water that flows under the crate?

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## Colorblizzle

Yes. I will also have stones built up around it and that may help hold it up...but not right to the eggcrate. But as long as I can silicone it I'm good. I just wasn't sure if it would adhere to whatever material weedblocker is (burlap?)

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## Paul

I siliconed a piece of screen to a whole i cut in a Rubbermaid tub for a cricket keeper. It holds it well enough. I think as long as the silicon can embed itself in it or to it it will hold to one degree or another. The crickets can't escape but the dog could get in if she so chose  :Smile:

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## Colorblizzle

lol and I bet your dog has tried huh?

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## Paul

She has indeed. She eat anything she can fit in her mouth. For a MinPin that is a surprising amount of things. lol

Keep the updates coming on the Terrarium!

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## Colorblizzle

I will definitely keep this updated as I go

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## Colorblizzle

If I decide to go with a "great stuff" background with the little planting cups like I see so many people do....where would I get the cups? And if I need to online what do I call them?

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## Carlos

> If I decide to go with a "great stuff" background with the little planting cups like I see so many people do....where would I get the cups? And if I need to online what do I call them?


You can get them at a local Hydroponics shop and they are called "Slotted Net Pots" or similar.  If none are available locally, can also order from Amazon.  Good luck  :Smile:  !

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## Colorblizzle

Thanks mentat!

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## bill

If you still can't find them, let me know, I have a lot of extras and I can ship them to you, just cover the shipping ($6)

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## Colorblizzle

Cool thanks chipmunk. So if I go this route I'm told you also use silicone with this application? I've looked at a few setups and read but still confused as to which order things happen in. And on the sides where I have the sides meet the water how do I go about that? Is the grey stuff waterproof?

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## bill

Silicone for planters? Or with foam in general?

No need to silicone the pots in, the foam will hold them, you just need to make sure you have drainage for them. Some people tie in coffee stirrers to crate drainage, I prefer poking at the foam after it cures fully with bamboo BBQ skewers.

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## Colorblizzle

I'm talking with the foam in general. People say I need great stuff and silicone. So do I spread silicone on the glass and after that apply foam? Or vice versa? Or do I not really need silicone?

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## bill

Silicone isn't really necessary. The foam will stick to the glass. As far as covering the foam, you can use silicone, titebond 3 wood glue, non sanded tile grout, mortar, concrete, ect. It's all personal taste and design.

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## Colorblizzle

So with the silicone or tote bond can that be tinted? Or can I stick miss to it? I have an unopened bag of flickers green moss that I bought for my original idea which was to just cover try glass in silicone and stick moss to it...

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## Colorblizzle

I really need spell check lol. Srry for all of the errors so far. 

So anyways I've received almost everything in the mail now. I got a 20" 25UVB T8 fixture and bulb, a small critter cage for crickets, a fluval nano filter, and the flukers green moss.

I ordered weedblocker on amazon and according to my tracking #, it was delivered 2 days ago...so I've got to contact the post office and get that figured out. 

Other than that still waiting in substrate. I was planning on using soil because I want live plants. Will they grow just as good in ecoearth? I only ask because where I am at this time of the year nobody has soil

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## Colorblizzle

Also my woman saw how much I've spent already and has informed me I'm not buying the great stuff to make the background "cooler" do moss and silicone it is

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## bill

You don't want to use straight soil, it doesn't drain as well. You'll have a muddy mess on your hands. 

Yes, titebond can be tinted using acrylic craft paints.

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## Colorblizzle

Ok so Eco earth is a better option? It will grow plants

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## bill

Yes, they will grow. The frog's waste should be enough to fertilize them. Or you can use a very diluted solution of seachem's flourish. ;-)

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## Colorblizzle

How diluted? I already have flourish...

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## bill

For a standard spray bottle, I normally only put about 10 drops.

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## Colorblizzle

Sounds good, and once daily misting is probably standard?

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## bill

Yup. Depends on your setup. If it holds the humidity with one misting, you're good. Some need to most more

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## Colorblizzle

Ok sounds good. I have a humidity gauge so all set on that

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## bill

Make sure you get a digital one. The analogs are garbage and can't be trusted.

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## Paul

I love my Zoo Med HydroTherm! You can search for it on Amazon. I don't use it to control my misting system, but the digital readings for humidity are excellent!

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## Colorblizzle

I have a digital thermometer but haven't even come across a digital hygrometer. Where do I look other than amazon or eBay?

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## Colorblizzle

Thanks digital punk, I'll look. Hope it's cheap tho. Wasn't planning on digital so I have no money for it. If I can't find something for less than $10 it will have to wait

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## bill

Petsmart and petco sell the combo for about $30 or so.

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## Colorblizzle

Combo? I already have a digital thermometer. A coralife digital thermometer, use it in all my fishtanks and trust me completely. I'll look around

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## bill

The combo has one probe, does temp and humidity together. It's a sweet little setup.

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## Colorblizzle

This is the cheapest digital one I could find. Not a huge fan of fluker but like I said this isn't something I can spend good money in right now. I can get this for less than $10 shipped. Is this garbage?

http://amzn.com/B0009YJWW4

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## SqUaReJeLLy

If you don't mind that it doesn't have a probe so the whole thing would have to be in the tank there is this one, Purchase the AcuRite Digital Humidity and Temperature Monitor for less at Walmart.com. Save money. Live better. I know a lot of people who use that for their hermit crab tanks.

Either  way which ever one you get make sure to calibrate them before you use  them and it's also a good idea to check at least once or twice a year.  To calibrate a thermometer just put it near your houses thermostat. To  calibrate a hygrometer get a bottle cap, like from a water bottle, fill  it with salt and add a few drops of water. Not enough to soak it but  just enough to get it damp. Then place the cap and the hygrometer in  something air tight. I use a zip lock bag inside a plastic container  just to be extra sure no air is escaping. Let it sit for a few hours, I  wait over night, and it should read 75%. If not then it's off. Some you  can recalibrate so it reads correctly but I have only seen that on  analog ones, it's a little screw on the back. But even if you can't just  remember what it's off by. So if it reads 70 then you know you have to  add 5 to whatever it says to get the correct humidity level. 

I  have used the same thermometer that you use, the coralife digital  thermometer and ended up exchanging a heater 3 times thinking the heater  was wrong when it was just the thermometer. I only had it for about a  year but it was off by about 6 degrees since I had gotten it. So make sure you check those  too.

----------


## Colorblizzle

I don't mind if the unit is in the tank

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## Colorblizzle

That one from Walmart looks good enough for me

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## Colorblizzle

Got my weedblocker today, got one of the three pieces wrapped in it before work. Took a long time but I forgot I have a 3 year old that always wants to "help" should finish tomorrow before work

----------


## Colorblizzle

Going slower than I would like, but I wrapped the rest of eggcrate in the weedblocker and painted the outside if the tank, also bought some plantation soil. Now I just need to piece everything together and build a stand, but idk how soon I'll be able to build a stand so this may be my last post until it's finished, I will try to add pictures still tho. 

Not much water and very hallow, but could I add something like shrimp to this tank? Or will it just end up an expensive snack?

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## Colorblizzle

So above is my tank after I painted it, only got one coat since I was at work and my boss didn't want me doing it, even tho I was on break. I don't think he liked the fumes.





Above is he tank after I put the false bottom in. 





And lastly for now above is with the gravel added. 

I have taken the flukers frog moss band broken it all up and tossed awY sticks and such them I rinsed it, now I'm letting it dry for 24 hours then I'll begin siliconing it to the walls.

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## Carlos

> ...Not much water and very hallow, but could I add something like shrimp to this tank? Or will it just end up an expensive snack?


Probably  :Frown:  !

----------


## UltraMagnus

Freshwater shrimp would not do well in that setup. Besides the fact that they'd be eaten, it's far from optimal for them. They will need more water and prefer planted tanks.

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## Colorblizzle

That's what I figured. I tired establishing a shrimp colony once before in a betta tank, 4 days....that's how long it took before I lost all 12 shrimp.

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## Colorblizzle

The tank will be planted but probably only floating plants such as duckweed (which I have too much of already)

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## UltraMagnus

Shrimp are very low on the food chain, keeping them with predators just means they are food  :Smile:  I've been keeping red cherry shrimp for about three years, they are pretty neat and really love plants.

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## Colorblizzle

That's what I tried startin a colony of. So you know how expensive I a meal 12 if them is to a betta lol

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## bill

Shrimp will live in a puddle if given the opportunity lol I have raised them in the weirdest ways, but they most likely would end up as food. You could always toss ghost shrimp in there. They are cheap and used for food anyway. Besides, they won't breed in an aquarium anyway.

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## UltraMagnus

> That's what I tried startin a colony of. So you know how expensive I a meal 12 if them is to a betta lol


That's some very fine dining you treated your betta to. He must have been very happy!

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## bill

The key to keeping shrimp with predators is space, hiding spots, and keep the predators well fed.

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## UltraMagnus

> Shrimp will live in a puddle if given the opportunity lol I have raised them in the weirdest ways, but they most likely would end up as food. You could always toss ghost shrimp in there. They are cheap and used for food anyway. Besides, they won't breed in an aquarium anyway.


What species are you saying won't breed in an aquarium? Red Cherry Shrimp (neocaridina) Breed like rabbits!

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## bill

Ghost shrimp. I have bred neos in mason jars on a windowsill with tiny amounts of Java moss.

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## Colorblizzle

My LFS has cleaner shrimp for $1  almost all the

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## Colorblizzle

Almost all the time*

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## bill

Yeah, those are probably ghost shrimp. Most likely clear exoskeletons? They'll live in very little water and won't breed. Cheap food. I sure as heck wouldn't throw in some of the shrimp I had in the past in there lol I was keeping tiger shrimp in my mantella paludarium for a while. But those frogs are much smaller and terrestrial.

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## Colorblizzle

It was kinda see through but more if a light brown like a wall in a smokers house

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## bill

Brown striations could be a wild type neocaridina. Their natural color is brownish. The reds, yellows, blues, ect are from selective breeding.

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## Colorblizzle

Yeah I know, read an article about it in TFH magazine

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## Colorblizzle

I will have to look at what stays small and what's available locally but what plans will work in his setup? The only one I can remember reading was pothos

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## bill

Plants for this tank? Pretty much anything that is listed as "tropical" will work fine. Fittonias and peperomias will stay relatively small, with some trimming.

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## bill

If you need trailing plants for a higher planter, look into hoyas or dischidias.

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## Colorblizzle

Well I was just told some plants don't go so well with some amphibians/reptiles. Irk whether that's because they are poisonous or if they eat them or what but just wanted to get a. Feel for what others put with their FBT. 

also I'm just about done puttin the moss on as the background. Just takin a break cuz the silicone fumes are driving me nuts haha

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## Colorblizzle

I don't have any planters. I'm just going To do about a 3" bed of plantation soil and grow in that. I'm not going To plant real heavy. And if something needs deeper roots I may leave it in its planter/pot and just set that in the tank

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## bill

Lol problem with the theory of they are unsafe if the frogs eat them is that frogs don't eat plants lol all the species I mentioned are safe, will survive in moderate humidity and you should be able to purchase at a local garden center, be it a nursery, Home Depot, Walmart, ect.

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## Colorblizzle

Ok. I have a nursery about a block away that I honk stays open in the winter

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## Colorblizzle

My spelling is horrible, I'm sorry. I blame my phone lol. 

But anyways I finished with the mossy background I have a few pics I took...







And lastly
I have a question, my kit came with a Zola brand 5.5" dome fixture and bulb. The bulb is 25UVB Is that needed? Because the dome doesn't really fit in too if he tank with the other light and I don't wanna clamp it. My strip light is also 25UVB. So what's the scoop? Here's a pic of the clamp/dome

----------


## bill

Looks good so far! No, you don't have to use the dome. You can use your strip instead.

----------


## bill

Unless, of course, you need it to heat the tank.

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## Colorblizzle

Well I'm not planning on heating the tank. At least unless I need to. The ambient temp of my house is about 70...too low? I have the heat pad that I suppose I could attach to the back??

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## Colorblizzle

I have decided maybe I'll try the dome for a heat lamp during the day. Will the 25UVB put out enough heat if used on the clamp above the tank? If not I'll buy a heat bulb not a problem.

But with the screen on the top of the tank how will I mount the dome??

----------


## Colorblizzle

Still not sure how to mount the dome to the too of the tank with the screen lid on. But I have a new set of problems

Today I put the substrate in the tank and the filter, not entirely happy with the way everything looks froma. Design standpoint but is is my first try and only needs to please my 3 year old mans 6 year old. And they love it. Anyways on to the problem. The filter isn't working. I mean it powers on and everything but no flow. I opened it and filled it with water. Filled the tank about 3" full and waited. Half hour later nothing coming out of the filter still. Any ideas? My only thoughts are that the water is t able to deep through the weedblocker. Too dense? So I'm thinking of pokin holes in it randomly with a nail. Thoughts?

I haven't taken the filter out to see if there is water on that side if the false bottom but another design flaw was that it's almost impossible to get the filter out :-/ once time for maintenance comes around I'll fight that battle...

----------


## bill

Can you take a pic? It sounds like there's either no flow to the filter or it is clogged with substrate.

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## Colorblizzle

I'm at work right now. I'll take a pic and post it in the morning. But I silicones everything in place, there is no substrate or moss or gravel whatsoever under the false bottom. There is however gravel banked up against the false bottom in the water section to try to hide the weedblocker/eggcrate. Could hat be impeding it? I would assume water could flow through those just fine

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## Carlos

For the filter to work; the water level has to be as deep as it's required minimum depth.  Myself would remove from tank and place in a container that has the required depth and plug it in.  If it works; need to see what is wrong in tank set-up.  If it doesn't work within a minute; then either troubleshoot according to instructions or return to store  :Smile:  .

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## Colorblizzle

Didn't know it has a required depth. Hopefully it doesn't need more than 3" cuz that just won't work...

----------


## Paul

I got one of these to hold my lamp i didn't want to clamp onto the top of the terrarium http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

My lamp had a clamp on it that I just hung from this thing. 

Depending on the filter it will need between 2 and 4 inches of water. It could be that it just want getting enough water flow to it to work properly.

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## Colorblizzle

Deranged chipmunk said that he has used this type of filter before tho with the weedblocker. I think my best bet is going to be poking small holes in the mesh. No fish in the water or anything so it shouldn't pose a problem. 

I am however contemplation getting a small betta or killifish for the water. Would the frogs ultimately try to eat them?

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## Colorblizzle

Just looked at the description on the site I bought it, it doesn't mention anything about a minimum depth. I know it sucks water from the bottom

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...p;pcatid=23458

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## Carlos

That filter is designed for aquariums and might require to be submerged.  Did you tried the test described in my previous post?  If it does not work with 3 in.; then add more water to container until filter is covered and see if it starts working.  If it does, then that model filter won't work for your tank's 3 in. water depth.  If it doesn't start; then filter might be broken.

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## Colorblizzle

I will try to test it later today

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## bill

Yes, that filter needs to be completely submerged. I lay them on their side under the false bottom. I had one in the mantella tank and have another in the steam punk tank.

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## bill

It won't work like a reptofilter, the top is the pump whereas in a reptofilter, the pump in on the bottom.

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## Colorblizzle

Ugh. I guess I'll have to figure something else out then. The structure of my entire false bottom is sized around this filter. I can't lay it sideways. And don't have any money for any other filter right now, and promised my son frogs this weekend. I may have to run a small box filter in there or something

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## Colorblizzle

Not a big deal to use a box filter other than the esthetics. It's just that now I have a 7" tall section of eggcrate with a whole in it what I gotta figure out how to cover...

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## bill

My apologies on that one. I should have clarified the fact that I use it laying down.

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## Colorblizzle

Not your fault. I read your articles on the mantella build at least 3 times. Just didn't read for understandin I suppose

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## Carlos

Know it's late for this one; but when any electrical or mechanicals are involved; it pays to do a test run prior to making any permanent mods.  For example; set all pumps and filters in future location; fill tank to planned depth; connect all humidifier and/or mister equipment and plumbing; set up the heating/cooling systems, test everything!  Then check all works as planned and make adjustments if needed.  This is the time to "measure 3 times and cut once."

Then, when tank's no leak water integrity (including any bulkheads) and all equipment checks OK; you take it all apart and start the artistic moulding of background, bottom, etc.  Don't forget to make sure that all electrical equipment can be removed later for service or replacement if required.  Hope this helps in the future and good luck  :Smile:  !

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## Colorblizzle

Yeah I thought I did my homework. But it's just like school. Yes I did my homework but I failed it lol

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## Colorblizzle

Well I have an extra air pump, looks like tomorrow I'll be making a trip to my LFS To buy a corner box filter. Thought about dropping a Sponge filter down in the space but even the smallest kind wouldn't fit and I'd have no way to get it back up

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## Paul

Ugh know that feeling all to well. This will be a lesson you don't forget for a long time  :Smile:  I know I won't.

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## Colorblizzle

Lol I hear ya

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## Colorblizzle

Always one problem after another. 

So today I went to my LFS and told them of my problem. Explained that I have 3" of water and need a filter that doesn't need to be submersed and will trickle water into stones or whatever before cascading back into the water. They reccomended a canister made for turtles. Altho I do believe that would he the bet option, when dealing with 3G of water I feel it's overkill and too costly ($60) so I asked what else. They pointed me to the Exo-terra repticlear 250 looks identical to my fluval nano except no spray bar. They told me it will do what I need. They have never done me wrong I. He past so I bought it. 

Got home filled my sink up to about 2/3 of the filter. Plugged it in and after  a minute it began to trickle out. It never got more than a trickle. So I put it in my terrarium after I removed a bunch if the false bottom and plugged it in. It didn't work. Maybe not enough water still? I'm sick of his already...

I was given a budget of $100 including price of frogs. I've now spent $140 and still don't have the frogs. AND the system still doesn't work. And my daughter stole the auction cups from the filter and lost hem so I can't return it either. 

My day is ****, how about everyone else??

At least I have tomorrow off and can attempt to troubleshoot. If it worked in the sink it should work in the tank. 

Also I bought 2 bags if what I thought was 2 plants each and wen I got home each bag had about 10 plants. So the tank is planted and not to my liking but I'll play with that tomorrow as well. Now the question is, will my t8 25UVB bulb sustain plant life? It's all I got...

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## Colorblizzle

We can't say c r a p?

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## Colorblizzle

Got the go ahead from my lovely better half to scrap the project and start over and do it right this time :-)

BUT I promised my son frogs this weekend. So in still gonna get 2 FBT's and idk maybe employ some kind of small sponge filter in the tank until I have the other one finished. I will be using the titebond III and the great stuff in this next build I think. 

The next build (which won't start right away) will have its own threat. So I suppose we could call this thread closed. Thanks for all the helpful information everyone! 

And lastly, deranged chipmunk...

Any chance you can comment in her and give me a list of materials used for your mantella build? I feel like in gonna forget something vital and I don't always have good enough Internet where I. At to take another look at your build. Thank you everyone.

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## bill

Wow, that's quite a list  :Smile:  I'll see what I can out together by the end of the evening.

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## Colorblizzle

Well I do t need a list if variable sized driftwood and gravel ;-) just a basic list if materials used to make the background mostly. And how to do a "trapdoor" for filter maintenance etc

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## Colorblizzle

I'd like to Incorporate a canister filter this time around but I don't know how to make that work with a screen lid

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## Paul

Thats a tough call to make esp after investing so much into this setup. I bought one of these to use in my sons Dart tank. Just thought I would share it out since you are on the hunt for a filter still. It works in as little as 2 inches of water. Very slow trickle of water, but enough for me.

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## bill

Sorry, I got tied up with some stuff last night. I have a very busy weekend coming up. Essentially, my background was made with great stuff type foam (I use ge foam from Walmart), covered with titebond 3 wood glue and a mix of sand, cocofiber and peat moss that I made up. I would not use the peat moss though, just stick with straight cocofiber. 

A trap door is easy. Cut a hole in your false bottom big enough to give you access, then cut a piece of egg crate larger than the hole. Lay the larger piece over the hole, cover in screen and you now have an access door. Yes, you'll have to pull the substrate to access it, but that is so much easier than tearing the tank apart to get to the filter.

----------


## Colorblizzle

I may look into that filter digital punk. Just so I have filtration til the new one is done. I've used that whisper filter in a 5.5g fishtank before. Didn't know that it could be used in little water tho. That's great news since they are cheap and readily available by me. 

Now the build, ge foam...as in ge brand like ge silicone? And peat miss is something I can neve seem to find so I would have. Skipped that anyways. I have Eco-earth plantation soil which I believe is just coco fiber so that with some sand would work for me. Do I need to tint the glue with a quikrete concrete dye? Or not needed? Thanks for such a quick response. I'm planning on putting an aquarium heater under the false bottom as well. Should I also make an access panel for that just to be safe?

----------


## Paul

I would make an access panel for anything you place under the false bottom or you will regret it if you have a freak failure in a few months. 

Yeah in the paint section at walmart by the silicon is where they keep the spray foam. They have the normal Great Stuff, but also have GE brand spray foam. I used it for the first time on my sons Dart tank last week and it worked out really good. No noticeable difference between it and the Great Stuff except the price. 

For my filter and Pump I built a channel using Egg crate up the back of the tank so I could access them behind the back wall and remove or replace them. I am not sure how practical that will be, but at least I tried lol.

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## Colorblizzle

I'll take a look next time I'm at Walmart :-)

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## bill

The reason I use the ge foam versus the great stuff is that I found the ge foam cures with smaller air bubbles. It was really evident on my latest build. I'll try and get pics of it tonight baca use I haven't blacked out the sides and back of that tank yet. 

Definitely build an access point for anything you add under the false bottom and don't forget to have a way to run wiring. A piece of 2" PVC pipe works well and an electrical tunnel. (See my white's tree frog build)

There's no need to tint the titebond, unless you want to. You can use acrylic craft paint from Walmart or a craft store to tint it, but it's not really necessary.

----------


## Colorblizzle

I'll look into your build as soon as a I. Get a chance. Cleaning the house right now but I'm assuming u run it up a corner with say a 45 angle on the bottom to allow access. Also I've seen people use straws in the hydro mesh pots for drainage. Good idea?

----------


## bill

I have seen people do that as well. Personally, I just foam the pots in and then I use bamboo BBQ skewers to punch holes it the foam. But I only do that so I can adjust the drainage of each planter. It's a very time consuming practice, but I think worth it so I can have plants with different needs all over the tank. Remember though, I normally have my planting figured out before I even start building, so I already know which plants need excellent drainage and which ones can have a soggy soil, ect. 

I would suggest you utilize the coffee stirrer method since it's your first build.  :Smile:

----------


## Colorblizzle

Will a coffee sturdier be big enough? I was gonna use bendy straws haha.

I have no idea which plants need good drainage or not  I just planted the current tank yesterday. Bought 2 bags that I thought had 2 plants each in. Now I have well over a dozen pieces. I know the big leaves one is called pothos. But the other is a type of vine. I'll post a pic



And the he foam...with great stuff I remember you saying to use gap and crack and not e other kinds. What different kinda are there of the ge brand? And which are ok?

----------


## bill

I don't like the gaps and cracks version, especially if I have to do any carving. Big air pockets In that version. But everybody has their preferences. They are all safe, but I do stay away from the fireproof version.

----------


## bill

You can use bendy straws, they will work just fine. And don't worry about which plants need drainage, the plants you have will be fine. Looks like you have a pothos, philodendron, and some ficus pumila in there. Tough to tell from the pic though.

----------


## Colorblizzle

Yeah with the screen lid and the lighting it's hard to get a good pic. I can take the screen off and get better pic but I'm not home right now. All I really know is I wanna do the back and both sides in that stuff and I ordered a pack of 10 2" mesh baskets on amazon. So I for sure wanna have 10 plants planted. I imagine vines up too and larger plants on the bottom. My biggest thing Is I want a fern. I'd plant it with only ferns! But everyone I look at online they all say only for larger terrariums :-/ is there a type of "micro fern" I'm not seeing? That would be something if want to plant I. The geound

----------


## bill

Coming from a self proclaimed "fern freak" I love the idea of a full fern tank. There are quite a few that stay small. I have at least one fern in every tank I have ever built. And fwiw, 2" pots are way too small. 3" minimum is a good size. Otherwise, the roots will eventually get bound up and the plant will suffer. Unless you want to pull each plant every year, trim the roots and replant.

----------


## Colorblizzle

Will I even have room for a bunch if 3" baskets in a 10g?

----------


## bill

You can put a few in. Remember, you are going to get juvenile plants and you need to plan for them to grow. I normally allow for double space for each plant.

----------


## Colorblizzle

Ok. Now with that said the foam will overlap into the false bottom correct? So do I build the bottom and wrap it and put it in place within the tank, then do the foam? Or foam first then make the bottom for around that? Idk how much the foam expands but hopefully not too much. Foaming 3 sides with a lot of expansion might take away ALOT of living space for my FBT's

----------


## Paul

It will expand but you can cut back any excess back. With foaming 3 sides I would get the bottom in place and fired before you foam. If you don't than you can do what I did to my Red Eyed tree frog build and cute the bottom into sections so you can fit it all together like a puzzle after the foam is dry. You will want to keep the foam out of the false bottom is possible to keep it from sitting in water.

----------


## Colorblizzle

I would plan on the foam either resting on the false bottom or above it but not in the water

----------


## Paul

Thats perfect  :Smile:  and as you learned from this last one. Don't be afraid to stop everything o rework something that isn't coming together the way you planned. I learned on my first tank that this isn't a sprint to get done it is a slow walk and you should enjoy every step  :Smile:

----------


## Colorblizzle

I like that ^^^

----------


## Colorblizzle

And if I go the electrical "pipeline" route...which I also like I would probably want the filter and heater under the false bottom before I foam because fishing the cords UP the pipe will be a pain. Only electrical in the tank will be filter and heater do maybe one pipe in each corner hidden by foam. As I see it in my head I like it better already...

I'm going to design it with the filter laying down this time. So u have 2 filters purchased and 2 options. With your guys experience would you go with the fluval nano which is 8" long and does I believe 115gph. Or the Exo-terra repticlear 250 which does about 70gph but is only 5" long. I'll be seller the one I don't use. And us 3" of water good or should I shoot for a little deeper thus time? Filters themselves are about 2" tall when laying horizontally...

----------


## Paul

I would test each one out in a tub or in the sink in the water depth you want and see how it works. Use that to base your choice on. You could put a piece of string in the pipes to pull the cords up with once the foaming is done. Having them in the tank while foaming could lead to an accidental foam on the electrical devices. 

Any kind of string will work. Then just tie the string to the cord and pull it up. Easy peazy  :Smile:

----------


## bill

Here are pics of the different foams. I used both on my steam punk tank, great stuff and ge brand. 
Here's the ge foam


And here is the great stuff



You can see the difference in how it cures as far as the size of the air bubbles inside if it. I also like that second pic because it shows that even with foam adhered to the glass, that like I always say, water vapor gets EVERYWHERE, even behind the background.

----------


## Colorblizzle

I looked at Walmart last night, they carried. Great stuff and a few other brands but not GE. I'm sure they all would have been fine but im gonna go to lowes and get the GE. 

Also I went to meijer (kinda like Walmart but a michigan and Indiana thing) and picked up a tetra whisper filter rated for a 3G tank. At first it didn't work but now it works. So at least this tank is functional til I get the other one ready. From watching it is have to guess its puttin out maybe 10g an hour lol

----------


## s6t6nic6l

I've just caught up with this thread and all is not well it seems  :Frown: 

why did you feel you needed to waste time and valuable space in the tank by creating a false bottom in the first instance?

I never understand the reason for putting working appliances in a viv/tank/build due to maintenance issues and for when problems arise.

hope the second phase works out for ya  :Smile: 

here is my FBT setup with water feature created by a very cheap low powered external filter  :Stick Out Tongue: 

toads home vid#03 - YouTube

----------


## Colorblizzle

Well I need a false bottom because they are not fully aquatic. Yes I could have just used a lot of large stones sticking out if the water or something but I wanted to have soil for plant

----------


## Colorblizzle



----------


## Paul

Not to mention having a false bottom also allows you to mist as often as you need and not worry about swamping out the substrate. It also aides in keeping the terrariums humidity up. Granted you can do the same thing with a drainage layer...

----------


## Colorblizzle

Yeah my LFS uses the drainage layer I believe. Looks like marble sized balls all under the soil across the whole tank. My water level is touching the bottom of my false bottom so essentially I only have MAYBE 1/4" between the water and the substrate. But I had to put it that high to get the filter to work. It's a weak air driven filter and it only pushes so high above the water level. Even now it's a trickle and sometimes it just stops working. Earlier the frog jumped onto it and it tilted back and stopped flowing I was like dammit! Lol

How often should I mist? I must the soil as well as the walls. I do t want to drown the plants out (which already appear to be dying) but don't want humidity to fall too low either...

----------


## Colorblizzle

For the next build I was just looking around on amazon...it wouldn't be able to house plants in the background but I found an Exo-terra rock background (18x18) if I cut that in half then one piece in half again I could do the back and sides above a false bottom. And still leave enough space to pot some plants in the substrate. Wondering if it's worth it to save time and money. Idk how much it would cost yet fr the great stuff band acrylic paint and titebond etc. But the background is $11!

----------


## bill

You can use the premised background. I just prefer making my own.  And you can always pin epiphytes to the background.

----------


## Colorblizzle

Epiphytes?

----------


## bill

Epiphytes. Plants that don't require soil to grow. Bromeliads and tillandsias are the most common, but also many ferns, peperomias, dischidias, orchids, and many others do very well that way. Even philodendron and pothos can be grown as epiphytes.

----------


## Colorblizzle

Good to know. I know quite a bit about fish related things but reptile and amphibian if like to slowly increase my knowledge base. So do they just grow no matter what? Or if no soil present they will grow emerged in water

----------


## bill

Yes, they get nutrients from the water when you most them. And no, if you leave a true epiphyte in water, it will quickly rot.

----------


## Colorblizzle

Ok. Cuz right now my pothos is planted, but some leaves are hanging in the water and almost fully submerged. Should I pull them up? I like the look

----------


## bill

No. You can leave them. Potho and philodendrons (cousins) can, believe it or not, grow submerged, they will grow right out of the water.

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## Colorblizzle

Cool. I'd still like to toss a few of the plants I grabbed and replace them with ferns. I don't know if any of my local nursuries are open in the winter so what's the best place to buy terrain plants, specifically ferns, online?

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## bill

Well, I normally would suggest black jungle, but they aren't in my good graces right now lol I have a  few links I can post tonight when I am in front of my PC.

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## Colorblizzle

I looked at black jungle last night actually, I'm guessing they didn't pull through with an order?

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## bill

No, they sent my order. Very disappointed with it and they never responded to my emails. I posted about it on my thread.

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## Colorblizzle

Which thread? Steampunk?

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## bill

That would be the one

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## Colorblizzle

I'll check it out. Been meaning to anyways, seen it one e but it wasn't finished. I believe you just painted the PVC last time I looked

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## Paul

I'll be buying some plants from neherpoculter.com soon and will be able to tell you what I think of there plants. I had a bad experience with Blackjungle as well recently and can't bring myself to order plants form them. I bought some plants from Josh's Frogs, but it was in the dead of winter and nothing survived long after the shipment was planted. I will give Josh another go once the weather warms up more.

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## Colorblizzle

Ok sounds good :-)

On another note my FBT hasn't eaten since I got him saturday. Any ideas? Offered 5 crickets are none. Then today went into cricket tank and all but 2 crickets were dead. I feed them so 1) how do I keep crickets alive? And 2) y won't frog eat??

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## bill

I don't keep crickets anymore, I just buy as needed, drop em in the tank and let the killers loose lol

Your frog may just be acclimating to it's new environment. Offer it food every couple days if you can. When it feels more comfortable, it will eat. Some eat right off the bat, some don't.

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## Colorblizzle

But instinctually it will eat before it dies right? I'm trying to feed 2x a week or so but don't have the free time for trips to the LFS often so right now keeping them is my only option. But how do I keep them alive? And can I feed him larger crickets? I'm offering small right now

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## bill

Yes, survival instinct SHOULD kick in, but not always. It sometimes takes a couple weeks. As far as the crickets, give them hiding spaces, moisture and food.

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## Colorblizzle

Ah, moisture. I have me in a tank with oatmeal bedding a little fish for food and toilet paper rolls for hiding. That's it. Should I put a small dish of water in their or maybe must the tank? I'd be worried about too much moisture in the oats tho if I misted...

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## bill

Nope, you can use water crystals, or, what I used in the past, a hermit crab sponge in a small dish

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## bill

They don't need humidity, but water to drink.

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## Gwen

This has been a fun and informative tread to read!

For crickets, I use cotton balls in a milk cap to hold water.

For my plants, I use plastic containers to make islands of plants and position rocks so the frogs can climb onto them.

For not eating, I asked Petsmart what they were feeding the frogs before I bought them. They said waxworms. (Where's the eyeroll smiley?) So I bought some and weaned the frogs off the waxworms and on to eating whatever is dangling from the chopsticks I use to feed them. They just started to associate chopsticks with food. By the time they realize I'm not feeding them waxworms, it's too late - they already swallowed the cricket. HA-HA!  :Frog Surprise:

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## Colorblizzle

Good to know u guys. I will add a small fish of water, I'm feeding me flukers orange cubes. I had hoped that would have enough moisture in it. I'm told I should start offering them shredded carrots tho. And what are water crystals? And again what size crickets should be fed? My fianc&#233; hates bugs. I got her ok with crickets I'm not gonna get her to let me start keeping worms lol

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## bill

Don't worry about the water crystals, the cubes are good. The size of the crickets depend on the size of the frog. It should be no larger than the space between their eyes.

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## Colorblizzle

Small size then. My frog is about 2" when he's just siting there. Over 3" tho when he's stretched out

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## Colorblizzle

Been reading a lot tonite. Quite a few questions for the masses. I'll start from the bottom up. 

Drainage, is it better to use a false bottom instead of hydro balls or is that a matter of preference? I understand I want a false bottom where I keep the heater and filter but could the rest of the tank be hydro balls?

When you foam is it ok to be fully submerged? Saw in a tank where the foam went to the bottom f the tank in the aquatic section. Liked the look. 

How do you keep the substrate from falling in the water? I understand the inhabitant is going to drop some in from time to time but where the soil meets the water, how do I stop the whole edge from just constantly dropping in??

What is the big differences between vivariums, terrariums, and paludariums?

Lastly, what is the best soil to use that's looks completely natural (I like black soil) is healthy for the inhabitants, and super healthy for the plants. Is there one that's best? Secret recipes or special ingredients etc. I have a local landscaping company that carries soil and cheaply but idk how good it is

I can never keep plants alive in a terrestrial sense. So in willing to spend a little more in quality "ingredients"

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## Paul

The False Bottom - You can do it either way. The main benefit for doing the egg crate false bottom is that you can ensure the water in the false bottom does not touch the substrate layer and swamp it out. You can put some Hydro balls in the false bottom. It helps to filter the water and will help with humidity some. 

Foam in water - You can and it won't hurt, but over time it could degrade the foam and cause it to come free from the wall. If you do have some under the water I would do whatever you can to waterproof it. Looks at build journals with foam under the water line and see what they did to keep it. OR you could use the GS Pond and waterfall foam it is designed for water use.

Keep substrate from falling into water - In my sons tank I used rocks to create a wall between the land and the water section. You could use Moss, Some egg crate, or really anything to create a berm between the land and water.

Diff between the types - I am not expert but from what I have learned. Terrarium = Live plants. Vivarium = live plants but adapted for keeping live animals. Paludarium - Same as other 2 but with a water feature.

Soil - I don't know that there is a best. I have seen everything from ABG mix to dirt used. As long as it is animal safe if will be fine. A good rule of thumb is to think about the natural environment the frog you are keeping and what is in it. If it exists in nature it will work in your tank. ABG mix is great for plants and will allow them to thrive. As will mixing your own soil. There are several people on this board who have post talking about their own "special" soil mix.

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## Colorblizzle

If I have to buy special dealer for the foam then I'll probably just keep it out of the water. I like the look but I also like the "fish eye" view of my inhabitants. Altho my FBT has dropped so much coco fiber into the water it's a little darker than a light tea right now. He loves it tho. Thinking of adding duckweed since I have a ton. 

And I can create a berm I suppose. You just don't see that a lot in nature. I wanna keep it as natural as possible, I actually found a pic online of a 29g that unlike the layout. It's just a natural slope to the water and back out wth the soil touching. I guess if it mucks up the water that's just a recipe for a happier frog huh? Heres the pic btw



And since I have a pool of water and live plants I guess mine is a paludarium then?

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## Colorblizzle

And I saw in one of chipmunks threads that he ha a special mix I was kinda fishing for an offer to share the ingredients list ;-) something about bat guano and kelp tho? Prolly not available around here. I need to visit a hydro store and see what thy have tho

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## Colorblizzle

Oh and chipmunk, finally got all caught up on your steampunk build. That plant they sent uo was a damn shame, I know that and I don't even know anything about plants really lol. But also the setup looks really awesome! I wish at the ends of your builds tho ou would post a video. Maybe not so much on the mantella build butnid like to see how the "steam" works in this new build :-)

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## bill

> Been reading a lot tonite. Quite a few questions for the masses. I'll start from the bottom up. 
> 
> Drainage, is it better to use a false bottom instead of hydro balls or is that a matter of preference? I understand I want a false bottom where I keep the heater and filter but could the rest of the tank be hydro balls?
> 
> When you foam is it ok to be fully submerged? Saw in a tank where the foam went to the bottom f the tank in the aquatic section. Liked the look. 
> 
> How do you keep the substrate from falling in the water? I understand the inhabitant is going to drop some in from time to time but where the soil meets the water, how do I stop the whole edge from just constantly dropping in??
> 
> What is the big differences between vivariums, terrariums, and paludariums?
> ...


Paul pretty much hit the nail on the head with his answers, but i may be able to elaborate.

Drainage: false bottom versus drainage layer. False bottoms allow for a multitude of options, including allowing a space to hide equipment, and to ensure a drier substrate. But as I always see it, having a larger water reservoir allows for more stability in the bio filter. The higher the water volume, the easier it is to keep parameters stable. Of course, a false bottom had disadvantages, the main being it requires filtration. Using a straight drainage layer avoids the need for filtration, but also creates the need for a way to drain the excess water. It's really a matter of preference. 

Foam: is applied directly to the glass, not an issue. Water proofing is not necessary, the foam is water proof. It's urethane, essentially, and the same stuff they use for more modern, solid life preservers. So you can run the foam all the way to the bottom. I did on the Madagascar tank and my foam goes well below the substrate in my pond on the steam punk tank. 

Keeping the substrate out of the water with live animals going in and out of the water is nearly impossible. I utilize lava rock for this purpose. I also use dark aquatic substrates, that way the terrestrial substrate blends in. 

Paul was correct in his definitions of tanks, with the exception of paludarium. A paludarium is defined as a tank which combines a terrestrial portion as well as an aquatic portion. Simple example, my Madagascar tank was a paludarium, my steam punk tank, while having a small pond 1" deep, is a vivarium. The AGA (aquatic gardener a association), who governs the competitions defines the aquatic portion as an area where aquatic animals can live comfortably (I'm paraphrasing). So a palu has a section of deeper water and normally planted. 

Soil: pm me  :Smile:

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## bill

> Oh and chipmunk, finally got all caught up on your steampunk build. That plant they sent uo was a damn shame, I know that and I don't even know anything about plants really lol. But also the setup looks really awesome! I wish at the ends of your builds tho ou would post a video. Maybe not so much on the mantella build butnid like to see how the "steam" works in this new build :-)


Thanks! I can post a video tonight so you can see how it operates. It's very basic and simplistic. Pretty much a face palm when you see it and say"my god! That's so easy, how come I never thought of that!" Lol

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## Colorblizzle

Well I saw the way you had the pipes set up and saw where you said the mist will come from but just want to see it in action :-)

How exactly do you use the lava rock? I have about 100lbs of lava rock laying around actually. I just didn't think to use it in a frog tank because of its sharpness and their sensitive skin. 

With the foam being waterproof, I also saw where you posted once that no matter what you do moisture gets between the foam and the glass. But this had never caused a separation in your experiences?

And lastly I'm going to attach a photo here but I stated before my frog wouldn't eat and the crickets were dying. Well the frog still won't eat and I bought more crickets and added a water dish in there cricket keeper. But I also decided to buy another FBT today thinking since they are said to be communal maybe this will make it more comfortable. Now maybe an hour later one is kind of on the other. Is this a sign if aggression like hey this is my tank! Or is it mating? Just didn't expect to see them by each other so quickly

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## bill

Here's how i used lava rock to transition from land to water 


I never had an issue with separation due to water. My main reason for mentioning water getting behind it is because I always hear "the frogs will never come in contact with it, so I think it will be safe". Water mixing back there with an unsafe substance can cause toxic chemicals to leech into the tank from there. 

And that behavior with fbt's is quite common. My son kept several in a palu I built for him and they did that constantly. 

Try this link, hopefully it works, there's a video of the steam in the comments section. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheH...7026403386969/

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## Colorblizzle

I see how you used the rock now.  This behavior is normal? But what does it mean tho? Just 2 bored frogs entertaining themselves? Lol

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## bill

I guess that's what they are doing lol maybe a more experienced fbt owner will chime in on that one.

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## Paul

Hmm no Video that I can see Bill  :Smile:

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## Colorblizzle

I didn't see a video either. More pics tho :-P

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## bill

The video is in the comments section. I added it later by request. I'm pretty sure Paul found it lol

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## Colorblizzle

I a picture in the 7 comments. Maybe it is a video and just isn't supported via mobile

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## bill

Yeah, it wouldn't work for me either. I'll post a video tour of the tank tonight when I get home and post it in my journal.

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## Colorblizzle

Sweet

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## Gwen

> Is this a sign if aggression like hey this is my tank! Or is it mating? Just didn't expect to see them by each other so quickly


That's looooooooooooove, baby!!! LOL! That doesn't look aggressive to me. Do you hear any barking? That's the call for looooooooove! Ooooooh yeah! (In Barry White's voice)

When I put a new female in two days ago the male was barking up a storm. I thought his regular girlfriend would be jealous, but I think he got rejected by the new female cuz when I got home from work he was pouting behind the water filter. LOL! I gave him a waxworm to mend his wittle broken heart. LMAO! He's back in the game!

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## Colorblizzle

Nope no barking that I can hear. But I have a NOISEY house. 2 toddlers and a bunch of fishtanks running

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