# Frogs & Toads > Toads >  New Colorado River Toads....(20!!!)

## Mordecai

I was at work yesterday around 12pm, when I received a text that said "Help please! Hurry Home!" So I took my lunch, and rushed home to find our shipment of 20 "juvenile" Colorado River Toads (Bufo alvarius) had arrived! Juvenile was what we had anticipated, but they are a bit larger! Which is fine, we just used another 20 gallon. A few are a little underweight, but some of that could be dehydration from the shipping. Other than that, we are absolutely thrilled with our new babies! We fed out 10 dozen crickets and they gobbled them up very quickly. We sat by all 4 tanks almost all night just awing at them. I am so excited to "fatten" them up and watch them grow! Here are a few of the pics I took this morning.

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## John Clare

Very nice indeed.  They look wild caught to me (the vast majority are, even if the seller claims CB) - I'd get them treated for parasites just to be sure.

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## Mordecai

Thank you John. Yes, we are starting to realize that may be the case. If there aren't any exotic vets in our area, what would you suggest we do? Should we purchase some sort of medicine to rid them of any parasites they may have, just in case? 

They are so much fun to watch. Now, we have the Cane Toads as well and they are a nice large toad to look at. But, they very rarely move, and if by chance they do, they are very skittish. So it's refreshing to see all these River Toads out and about. 

One of the baby River Toads we got from you is an absolute riot! He was the smallest, and has easily doubled his size since he's been here. Which is not a surprise at all because he will eat ANYTHING that moves! He even strikes at the tweezers we use to dig up worms that have burrowed in his cage. Oh he is too cool. 

Here is a picture of Rico, the little fatty. (he tried to lick the lens twice!)

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## Jace

*Congrats on your new arrivals!  They are all so cute.  I so wish I could get one of these guys.  Rico is adorable.  Keep the pictures coming!*

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## SethD

Twenty, your going to go through a lot of insects, that is for sure.  :Big Grin:  I know how many roaches my rococos and guttatus go through and and I only have around twelve total of those two species. Colorado river toads may eat a bit less due to being a little smaller but I still bet that many will work very hard at eating you out of house and home.  :Wink:

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## John Clare

Ella, how's the other one from me doing?  Is he/she eating for you?  Strange turnabout with them.

Regarding medicating the others, they should be treated with fenbendazole (Panacur) and metronidazole (Flagyl).  Panacur should be used once a week for 2-3 weeks.  Flagyl only requires 1-2 doses, say once each week half way through the first 2 weeks (between the Panacur dosages).  You _can_ administer these medications yourself, provided your state laws do not prohibit acquiring them.  Some forms of both medications are restricted to prescription only but you can acquire them in other forms (i.e. there is flagyl sold for fish that is not prescription only - you can buy it through amazon.com).  Large animal supply stores (like Valley Vet) are useful too.  The easiest method is to acquire them as powder (or tablets that can be powdered) and dust food items with the dosage and make sure each frog eats the dosed food items.

For amphibians, the dosing for Panacur is 50 mg/kg (for every kg of animal weight, administer 50 mg, so for an animal that way 100 g, you want to give it 5 mg).

In the case of Flagyl, the dose for amphibians is 50 mg/kg too.  Bruce Maclean ("Herpvet") suggests using probiotics instead of flagyl unless there's a serious problem that indicates flagyl.  This is a quote of Bruce in Caudata.org regarding probiotics:




> Gut microorganisms, usually with prebiotics etc. Not sure about brands  available in the states - lacto B9 (Genitrix) or avipro plus (Vetark)  are the ones here. 
> 
> Theory is that they are beneficial, or at least neutral, microorganisms  that compete with (hopefully out-compete) potentially harmful gut  microorganisms (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotics for more detail in humans).

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## Mordecai

Jo-Anna: Thank you so much!! We really love them! By no means do we intend to keep all 20...(well as of an hour ago...all 31!). We want to raise them all up right, learn more about them, and then when they are plump, healthy adults, we intend to sell them. So if you are in the market for one, and aren't in a hurry, I'm sure we could help you find your (toad) match!

SethD: Oh trust me, we had 'ol Rico for about a month before we received the big shipment, so we had some sort of idea what we were getting into. That little booger will eat ANYTHING that moves. At one point, we had to hand feed the other baby toad because she wouldn't eat on her own. But we didn't want her to choke, so we took one worm at a time, cut it in half, trying to feed her one half, and dropped the other in the tank for the time being. Well he took it upon himself to quickly hop from one side of the 20 gallon to the next and gobble up the second half. When I looked back to grab that half to feed to the other toad, there he stood, looking up at me ready for me to drop another. He's a little pig!
In one day, we have already fed out 20 dozen crickets, and about 100 dubias. We have a very large dubia colony established at our home, and ironically enough, they prefer the crickets. I'm assuming they were previously fed crickets and the strength of the dubias are a bit shocking. They will get one in their mouth and immediately spit it out, especially if the roach is on its back. 
Hopefully, like Rico, they will adjust to the dubias and eat them. Those bad boys have been gut loaded with all kinds of nutrients, so it would be great if they got them in their system!

Oh and we have 9 more coming! I'll post pictures as soon as they arrive!  :Big Grin:

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## Mordecai

Thank you so much John. I did a little research earlier today and read something about the Panacur. I will do what I can to check on laws, and get the medications they may need, and then follow your dosage recommendations. 
As far as the other toad, who was the largest of the three, she/he isn't doing as well as we had hoped. I am wondering if dominance has anything to do with her/him not eating. Rico, the fatty previously mentioned, will immediately attack any food we put in their cage. The other toad seems to get excited, toes moving and all, and will try one or two times to get a cricket, worm, or dubia, but seems to give up after the first two attempts. 
There was one time when I was feeding them worms, that Rico decided it was time to shed, and wandered off from the food. As soon as he hopped off, the other toad took that opportunity and went straight to the food and tried to eat for an hour or so, but was unsuccessful. Jeff and I have force fed her/him twice now in hopes that it will regain some strength and eat on its own. 
For the last two days now, she/he has been half way burrowed with its eyes closed. It isn't looking too good, and we think we will probably lose this one. I really don't know what to do.  :Confused:

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## RikoAustria

> Here is a picture of Rico, the little fatty. (he tried to lick the lens twice!)


Great looking toad..... and that's a SUPER awesome name  :Wink:

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## Deku

Those are some nice photographs. Very nice. Adorable little buggers too! Any names for them yet? ;P

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## Mordecai

Riko: Thank you. It is a very nice name isn't it! haha.  :Stick Out Tongue: 


Kevin:  Thank you very much. The baby one, Rico, is the only one we have named so far. Well actually, in the batch we received, we got two "pirates" (one missing an eye, and another missing a foot) So, we sort of named one Popeye! The person we purchased them from is sending us 9 more free of charge for the two that are deformed, and the underweight ones. Which I am very happy with. He's a good business man. 

Here is a picture of ol' Popeye. He does surprisingly well when eating and is very active!

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## Deku

> Riko: Thank you. It is a very nice name isn't it! haha. 
> 
> 
> Kevin:  Thank you very much. The baby one, Rico, is the only one we have named so far. Well actually, in the batch we received, we got two "pirates" (one missing an eye, and another missing a foot) So, we sort of named one Popeye! The person we purchased them from is sending us 9 more free of charge for the two that are deformed, and the underweight ones. Which I am very happy with. He's a good business man. 
> 
> Here is a picture of ol' Popeye. He does surprisingly well when eating and is very active!


Jeebuz. Thats a s hizzload of colorado toads. :P When you health them up(made up fword). Will you sell them?  Or keep them? O: Thats alot of large mouths to feed.  but good for you.

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## Mordecai

Oh we definitely intend to sell them. We are working on getting these guys nice and plump. We will grow them, keep logs on them, learn more about them, and then when they reach their full size, we will have them for sale.

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## John Clare

He may be a good businessman but he certainly lied about the captive bred status of those toads.

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## Mordecai

Well you'd have to ask Jeff about that. I thought that before the toads arrived he said they were captive bred. In a email exchange between the guy and Jeff after the toads were delivered, I believe he said he wasn't claiming them to be cb. He is saying that he goes down and collects pairs during the breeding season once a year or something and harvests the eggs as well. But then again, you will have to double check with Jeff. I've just been so consumed with all the little guys, any other information goes in one ear and out the other!  :Stick Out Tongue:  

I heard the first noises last night and dropped everything to run over and listen. I know they make two different calls; an advertisement call and a release call. I know it wasn't the advertisement call, but maybe the release? I'm not quite sure what the release call is for, all I know is anytime one toad would hop on another, the one on the bottom would make this (adorable) sound! So I thought that maybe "release" meant "let go"?? I could be totally wrong here. I only read a couple of paragraphs, before I ran back over to listen.  :Big Grin:

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## Jeff Kennedy

Yeah that was my bad for assuming things. When he told me how many he had and that he had raised the majority from eggs, I immediately made the assumption that they were captive bred. I was wrong. He collects them himself from areas of Arizona and New Mexico where it is legal and he HAS in fact raised the majority from eggs, however they were eggs that he collected as well. So I guess in a sense, they are captive bred. I'm happy that he's eager to make us happy and the next nine that he sends, are suppose to be flawless examples so we will see what they look like when they arrive.

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## Deku

> Oh we definitely intend to sell them. We are working on getting these guys nice and plump. We will grow them, keep logs on them, learn more about them, and then when they reach their full size, we will have them for sale.


Nice. I hope you find good homes for them. Could I make one suggestion if I may? 
Should you sell them, why not quizz the buyer about colorado river toads? Like ask them if they are educated and what they would do should they not want them anymore. Etc. Make them sign some sort of agreement that is legal? So they never get mistreated again. I wish you the best of luck raising these little guys. They look and sound adorable. If it was possible to hug a toad Id hug them. :P Then again I like to hug things guess Iam very weird.

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## Jeff Kennedy

Hey John,

Just purchased the panacur from a local vet. It is the canine form and contains (3) 1-gram packets. He advised that he thought this and the flagyl might be too harsh on them. I am concerned about the dosage. I know once a week for the next 2-3 weeks so is it ok to just dust the food items? I am concerned I could overmedicate if too much powder is on one bug or a particular frog eats too many bugs with it on there. Am I overreacting here?

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## John Clare

> He collects them himself from areas of Arizona and New Mexico where it is legal and he HAS in fact raised the majority from eggs, however they were eggs that he collected as well.


It is totally illegal to collect them in New Mexico, and it is only legal to collect a handful in Arizona under a state fishing license and under no circumstances can they be brought out of the state - that is illegal.  Not only is that a violation of the state laws of Arizona and New Mexico, but it is a federal offense under the Lacey Act.  USFW would love his contact information.




> Just purchased the panacur from a local vet. It is the canine form and contains (3) 1-gram packets. He advised that he thought this and the flagyl might be too harsh on them. I am concerned about the dosage. I know once a week for the next 2-3 weeks so is it ok to just dust the food items? I am concerned I could overmedicate if too much powder is on one bug or a particular frog eats too many bugs with it on there. Am I overreacting here?


You need to dose them as I said earlier - 50 mg per kg of toad weight (so at a guess I would say 1-5 mg per toad, depending on their weights).  Dose them by dusting food items.  You definitely don't want to dose much more than this and you certainly don't want to under dose them.

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## Jeff Kennedy

That's interesting. Well like I said before, I was under the assumption that they were captive bred until after I received them. It was after receiving them that I learned how they was collected. I never had a need to check on individual state laws as I assumed that he wouldn't do anything that was illegal just to sell some toads. I'll pass that info on to him just to make sure that he is aware of it in the event that he goes out to collect in the future. So far our guys are responding well to treatment. We are just a couple of days in and have fattened them up significantly. We have got them to adjust to the dubia nicely and hopefully they will take to the panacur as well. Thanks for the info John!

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## Kurt

> It is totally illegal to collect them in New Mexico, and it is only legal to collect a handful in Arizona under a state fishing license and under no circumstances can they be brought out of the state - that is illegal. Not only is that a violation of the state laws of Arizona and New Mexico, but it is a federal offense under the Lacey Act. USFW would love his contact information.
> 
> 
> You need to dose them as I said earlier - 50 mg per kg of toad weight (so at a guess I would say 1-5 mg per toad, depending on their weights). Dose them by dusting food items. You definitely don't want to dose much more than this and you certainly don't want to under dose them.


The problem with dusting is you run the risk of underdosing and producing drug resitance in the target parasite. The proper way to administer fenbendazole and metronidazole is orally and this can be done with a blunt-ended syringe, which you should be able to get from your vet. With both drugs there is a little bit of wiggle room in overdosing, so no worries unless you go nuts with dosing.

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Deku

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## Deku

> The problem with dusting is you run the risk of underdosing and producing drug resitance in the target parasite. The proper way to administer fenbendazole and metronidazole is orally and this can be done with a blunt-ended syringe, which you should be able to get from your vet. With both drugs there is a little bit of wiggle room in overdosing, so no worries unless you go nuts with dosing.


I was confused about the panacur when he mentioned it. Like what if he overdosed or underdosed? So it seems easier to do it by syringe. 
Iam curious is there a way to treat for parasites with injections or something?

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## Mordecai

We like out toads fat! The river toads have done a 180 when it comes to eating dubias. They have adjusted very well to the gut loaded roaches and gobble them up as soon as they hit the ground. I think that after they became more acquainted with their surroundings and settled in, they feel much more comfortable eating. 
The "hippies" (a tank with 6 extremely laid back toads) even line up when they see us walk by, anticipating the roach rainfall.





These guys are doing so great now, and we couldn't be happier!!!

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## Diogo Juliao

I'm so jealous! I love Bufo alvarius and you've got quite a nice group!
Really nice, congrats  :Wink:

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## Mordecai

Thank you so very much! I have fallen head over heels for these guys! They are such great entertainment, and I'm so happy they are all doing well. There are 9 more on their way here right now!!! I'm so excited!

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## Diogo Juliao

That's great! Too bad that here in Portugal we only have access to the more common species such as terrestris, melanostictus and stuff

Good luck with your beautys  :Big Grin:

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## Jace

*I have to admit, I am rather jealous!  I have tried to get out feelers on the possibility of getting a Colorado River toad into Canada and so far, I have been told rather blunty to give up.  However, they said that about my Pyxies, too, and now I have three of them!  I really love the last picture, of the two toads...the one on the left is such a cutie...I would pick that one for sure!!  Sigh....*

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## Kurt

I have one  :Big Grin:

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## Jace

*Okay, so now I'm jealous of you too!  Thanks a lot....sigh....*

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## Kurt

I had two, the other died.  :Frown:

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## John Clare

> *I have to admit, I am rather jealous!  I have tried to get out feelers on the possibility of getting a Colorado River toad into Canada and so far, I have been told rather blunty to give up.  However, they said that about my Pyxies, too, and now I have three of them!  I really love the last picture, of the two toads...the one on the left is such a cutie...I would pick that one for sure!!  Sigh....*


If I were you I'd get a Rococco (spelling?) or a Marine toad instead - easier to come by, no drug implications, and Marines can become very tame (eating dog food out of a bowl for you).

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## Jace

*I wonder what the availability is on them in Canada?  From what I have read of Marine toads, they are poisonous and are a potential threat to native species, which means Canada may not let them across the border.  Maybe I should start looking for a native toad species.  I have yet to come across anything remotely amphibian in my own city yet I know they are out there.....a nice Canadian toad would suit me just fine!  Thanks for the suggestions John.*

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## John Clare

I doubt Cane/Marine Toads (_Bufo marinus_) are illegal in Canada.  They can't survive cold winters, so there's no danger there.  Having said that, Canada's legislature aren't known for their good sense when it comes to amphibians - several provinces have banned some of the _Phyllobates_ dart frogs because the are under the uninformed impression that these poisonous amphibians are poisonous in captivity - they are not - if they were, I'd be dead many times over.

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## Greatballzofire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Toad
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/frogwat...s/westtoad.htm
In BC you could go herping and find some western toads (Bufo boreas boreas). This toad is a close relative of the California toad (,Bufo boreas halophilus) the kind I have. Mine are great pets and don't get humongous, so are easy to house and feed.

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## Morbidph8

> That's interesting. Well like I said before, I was under the assumption that they were captive bred until after I received them. It was after receiving them that I learned how they was collected. I never had a need to check on individual state laws as I assumed that he wouldn't do anything that was illegal just to sell some toads. I'll pass that info on to him just to make sure that he is aware of it in the event that he goes out to collect in the future. So far our guys are responding well to treatment. We are just a couple of days in and have fattened them up significantly. We have got them to adjust to the dubia nicely and hopefully they will take to the panacur as well. Thanks for the info John!


Hi ive been lurking for a while. It bugs me when people get wild caught Sonoran desert toads. While they may be found in CA, and NM. Most of the WC Colorado Toad come from Arizona. In AZ with a valid fishing license you can take a bag limit of certain wild amphibians. The law also states that AZ Native wildlife, cannot be sold, bought, or traded. They can only be given away. It's also against the law to take AZ Native wildlife outside of the state. Now Im not saying you guys did anything wrong. I live in AZ so it bugs me when I see kingsnake ads with sonorans for sale. Knowing they are illegaly been taken away from my state. Other than that. Your pics of your toads are great. Sonoran are one of my favorite toads. I currently have a Great Plaines toad I caught in my backyard. It's mansoon season now. Breeding season! Theres about 4 different toad species near me. I'm outside of the range for Sonorans though. I'm hoping I can find another Red Spotted Toad this year.

Sonoran Desert Toad (Incilius alvarius) - Amphibians of Arizona
Arizona Reptile/Amphibian Hunting Regulations
http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/h_f/regula...eAmphibian.pdf

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## Jeff Kennedy

We will be selling a small quantity of these in about a week. They have all been rehabilitated and treated for parasites. It has already cost us several hundred dollars in roaches and crickets to get these fella's back on track but it has been totally worth it. These are probably some of the most endearing frogs that I have ever owned. They act like dogs. It only took about a week for them to start recognizing me as a food source and now, every morning, they are lined up in front of there tanks waiting patiently for their turn to eat. We have (4) 20 gallon long tanks all in a row so you can imagine what this looks like. It is really going to be tough letting some of these guys go but we knew going in that we couldn't keep them all. So if you are interested, send me a PM and we can discuss the details. We are only releasing a select few at this time.

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## Mordecai

The "hippies" trying to line up.



The "hippies" perfecting the line up, and the "newbies",... well they try!

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## Morbidph8

Wow they sure look great. I would love a couple, that is if you can prove they where not poached from AZ. It would be illegal to pay for an AZ native of course. Oh wait you already stated they where illegally taken from AZ. So yea have fun in dealing with illegally taken wildlife. FYI anybody who buys these would be also be breaking the law. Better hope USFW doesn't come knocking at your door. I'm sorry if I'm being a douche but I'm not the one poaching wildlife from my state.

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## Morbidph8

To the user who gave me bad rep and said "Doesn't effect you, toads are not endangered, minding your own business might be a good idea." Yes it does effect me because as a citizen of AZ I have a obligation to stop the illegal taking of wildlife from my state. It's smucks like you who will make them endangered. Theres laws in place for a reason. Maybe you don't care about the law, but I do. BTW I'm forwarding this topic to Arizona Fish & Game. Ill let them deal with it. Have fun when your house is raided.  :Big Grin:

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## Jeff Kennedy

Alright, now let me get my rep hit a little bit. It's ok because I feel like this needs to be addressed. 

(V)orbidPh8: "I'm sorry if I'm being a douche". Those were your words but I couldn't agree with you more. You're acting like an idiot. I think the entire situation has been made clear through this thread but since it hasn't sunk into your skull yet, let me spell it out for you again. You are probably just so deep into your law studies that you overlooked some things. I bought this large group of toads under the impression that they were captive bred. I was advised by the seller that he raised them himself from eggs. It was not until they showed up at my door, malnourished and parasite ridden that I discovered that the majority was raised from a strain of wild caught eggs that he had harvested. In a sense they are captive bred but I'm not going to argue that issue. The issue is that we bought a large lot because we like them and wanted to have several of them in our own collection. We wanted to allow them to grow and then keep the biggest ones for ourselves and sell off the others. Obviously we are in no position to take on (29) full grown toads. You can find these toads for sale quite often and a lot of the popular online vendors offer them only for a much higher price. Now if I was the one going in to AZ and "poaching" them like you say just to turn around and re-sale them, then I get that issue. I, however am not. As it stands right now I am probably just about breaking even on the toads. I have the original purchase price on them all (which wasn't cheap), a couple hundred in dubia roaches and crickets that was required to bulk them back up as well as vet bills on (3) of them because I couldn't find any local vets that would prescribe the drugs used to treat the toads for parasites without them being seen. The way I see it is had it not been for me, the original owner would have continued not being able to feed these guys and they all would have just withered away and died. Is that the fate that you think your native toads deserved since you care about them so much?? Try to open up your mind a little bit and see the bigger picture. That is that we did a good thing by rescuing these guys, rehabilitating them and giving them a good home. Now they are healthy and happy and well cared for. Who cares if we now have a couple healthy specimens that we can pass on to other hobbyists to enjoy? Go ahead and do whatever you feel is necessary. Forward this to whomever you want. I am so tired of keyboard bully's that still live with their parents, wanting to get online and screw with good people just because they have nothing better to do. Go back to lurking as you said in your first post because this community was better without you. As far as the negative mark on your rep, it wasn't me. I just did log on and see your ignorance firsthand for myself. Sorry to John, all the moderators, members etc. I don't plan on getting all grade school with this but I felt that I had the right to defend myself under such an attack. My apologies in advance.

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## Morbidph8

The fact of the matter is you broke the law. It does not matter if you didn't know about them being illegally poached. You paid for illegally taken wildlife. You then had a hand in the interstate transport of said illegal wildlife. Then you want to sell the illegally taken wildlife. Regardless of your intentions to rehabilitate them and take care of them. You still broke the law. I'm sick and tired of people like you that have a hand in the illegal take of wildlife in my state. Because of people like you the wild numbers will dwindle and they will end up being protected. So people who could legally own one would not be able to. I like how you call me a "keyboard bully" but yet you threatened me. I was being polite about the whole thing. Until you threatened me. Anyways it doesn't matter I contacted AZF&G they took the info and said they would look into it. Poaching of reptiles and amphibians is big bussiness in AZ and it needs to stop. If you really cared about the toads you wouldn't be apart of the illegal trade of AZ wildlife. Like I said AZF&G is involed so I no longer need to be. Have fun with your toads.  :Wink:

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## Jeff Kennedy

Wow...You still don't get it do you? Anyways why don't you quote me the "threat" that I made to you?

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## Jeff Kennedy

And as far as the Arizona Game & Fish Dept. They are closed today because of the holiday as I have already tried to contact them myself. So I guess you made up the whole part about them telling you that they was going to check in to it. I'll be sure to follow up with them tomorrow though via telephone.

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## SethD

> The fact of the matter is you broke the law. It does not matter if you didn't know about them being illegally poached. You paid for illegally taken wildlife. You then had a hand in the interstate transport of said illegal wildlife. Then you want to sell the illegally taken wildlife.[COLOR=black] Regardless of your intentions to rehabilitate them and take care of them. You still broke the law. I'm sick and tired of people like you that have a hand in the illegal take of wildlife in my state. Because of people like you the wild numbers will dwindle and they will end up being protected. .... Poaching of reptiles and amphibians is big bussiness in AZ and it needs to stop.


For the record I have never owned Colorado river toads and have no plans to get any because I know very well that only a very small portion of the ones in the trade were CB or obtained legally. I don't need the potential for that kind of headache. That said Arizona's blanket prohibition on any form of trade in any of their native wildlife is not very realistic. I have seen these toads consistently available on a seasonal basis since at least since the early 90's when I started following the reptile/amphibian trade. There is no way Arizona is going to be able to put a stop to trade in a common and popular species that can bring a hundred dollars each outside the state. An attempt to do so is simply wasting the states time and resources. Bust a few people, make a lot of noise, but in reality accomplish nothing. To many Arizona residents and out of state collectors are not going to see a problem with making a quick buck on a species that is common and almost a pest(due to issues with dogs) in portions of its range. Arizona would do much better to regulate the trade in reptile and amphibian wildlife and treat it as a renewable resource. They need to treat collecting for the pet trade like they treat hunting and fishing. licenses to collect, bag limits, and population monitoring to insure the species can handle it. That would be a more effective way of doing things than totally banning commercial collection and any native species leaving the state.

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## Jeff Kennedy

Hey Seth, I appreciate your support. Like I mentioned there is no need for Morbid or whatever his name is to threaten me with contacting them because I am already going to do so tomorrow. Hell there is no way to even prove any origination on any of them. Since discovering weeks ago that they were in fact not CB, I emailed the seller and he advised me that they were from a clutch of eggs that he had harvested either in New Mexico or Arizona. They were then hatched out in the sellers state of MS and raised there from tads on. I will go ahead and contact AZ just because this guy is raising so much hell. It is very discouraging that I am NOT a frog dealer. Frog's are a hobby and passion for Ella and I. We have busted our ***'s since receiving these toads, spent a whole lot of money rehabilitating them and the payoff has been awesome. To know that you saved at least (18) of these guys from near death has been very rewarding. The majority arrived drastically underweight and had sores on them from poor husbandry. Now they look fantastic and all of the sores healed with no signs that they were ever even there. This feels good so we log on and share the experience with everyone and then have one bad apple ruin the whole "feel good" feeling. That is fine though. He thinks that he is scaring me by saying that he's contacting gaming officials and that they are going to raid my house but it isn't working. I will be calling them first thing in the morning to discuss the matter with the actual authorities. Now my curiosity is up and I want answers for myself.

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## Malachi

Sucks there are always trolls on forums....

Your toads look great, SOOO tempting to buy.

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## Mordecai

Doesn't it though! Drats!!
Thanks though Malachi! They are really awesome, and have made a complete turn around! Happy, healthy little fellers!  :Big Grin:

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## Morbidph8

> Arizona would do much better to regulate the trade in reptile and amphibian wildlife and treat it as a renewable resource. They need to treat collecting for the pet trade like they treat hunting and fishing. licenses to collect, bag limits, and population monitoring to insure the species can handle it. That would be a more effective way of doing things than totally banning commercial collection and any native species leaving the state.


I agree but until that happens the fact is its currently illegal. Here some more info for yea

It should also be noted that none of the states in which _B. alvarius_ is (or was) indigenous - California, Arizona, and New Mexico - legally allow a person to remove the toad from the state. For example, the Arizona Department of Game and Fish is clear about the law in Arizona: "An individual shall not... export any live wildlife from the state; 3. Transport, possess, offer for sale, sell, sell as live bait, trade, give away, purchase, rent, lease, display, exhibit, propagate... within the state..."[6]
 In California, _B. alvarius_ has been designated as "endangered" and possession of this toad is illegal. "It is unlawful to capture, collect, intentionally kill or injure, possess, purchase, propagate, sell, transport, import or export any native reptile or amphibian, or part thereof..."[7]
 In New Mexico, this toad is listed as "threatened" and, again, taking _B. alvarius_ is unlawful.[8][9]
Colorado River Toad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pretty plain to see your breaking the law. BTW I already quoted your threat it's a page back. Wow now I'm a troll because I stand up for my states laws. Nice I bet you just want to just get high off the toads. See I can throw around baseless accusations as well. BTW Operation Game Thief ran by AZF&G is open 24/7. Poachers don't take holidays. Wow really can't believe people on this forum condone poaching. Nice  :Frown:

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## Jeff Kennedy

Are you talking about the "Report a Violation" line? If so, that was the one that I called. They are closed for the holiday. What number are you calling? I'd be happy to call and speak with them.

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## John Clare

You guys could have had a constructive conversation about this but instead it has degenerated into a back-and-forth argument and name calling.  Let's be clear, as things stand, the worst that could happen to Jeff would be confiscation of the animals and an outside chance of a fine - there's a Lacey Act violation in there.  Since the original advert was for CB, I don't think Jeff has much to worry about.  Now, selling them on is a bigger issue - that could certainly lead to trouble.

Rather than berating each other, you should be reporting the original seller - give their full name and address to USFW and Arizona's equivalent.

Regarding the toads themselves, at this point they should not be released because of potential spread of diseases they may have picked up since entering captivity.  If they are confiscated, they will either be destroyed or given to another local keeper.  No one wins.

Now please be civil.

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## Jeff Kennedy

This whole issue has me completely dumbfounded. I purchased (3) of these guys from a fellow forum member a couple of months back. We fell in love with them immediately. Thought they were one of the most handsome toad species out there with their white belly's and their copper eyes. We lost one right off the bat due to some unforeseen illness and when I found more for sale on Kingsnake, I was thrilled. Actually at the time that I found this seller, there was (4) other sellers on Kingsnake that I inquired about. Up to that point, the only legality that I knew about in regards to this species was that it was illegal to extract it's toxin and smoke it. I was unaware that you couldn't "own" one. I bought what I thought was several CB specimens and when John saw the pictures and commented on them possibly being wild caught and noticed the runny stools, I asked the seller. It was at that time that I was advised that he had reared the young himself from eggs that he had harvested. The last several weeks we have worked endlessly rehabilitating these guys. We've spared no expense and probably at this point are a lot more invested in each toad then we should be. That is ok though because it has been totally rewarding to see them come back to life and look as good as they do now. A total 180 for the whole group. We've actually surprised ourselves with what we are capable of because when we first received them, we had about (10) that we figured could have passed any second. Now we have (1) that we are concerned about and everybody else is thriving and beautiful. It is really disheartening to post our experience with the species and to have it met the way it was, i.e. what this has turned in to. When we purchased this batch, we had every intent on keeping almost the entire bunch. We have had numerous messages and emails from people inquiring whether or not we would consider selling some of these once they were better. For that reason, we decided a couple of days ago that the group as a whole was in great condition and could be passed on to the caring hands of a few other hobbyists. At most, we were only going to let go of (4). What has transpired since is unfortunate and makes me refrain from wanting to share anything else on this forum. I feel like we have done a great deed for these toads. If we wouldn't have purchased them, they would have just wasted away in the sellers care. I never asked for a pat on the back but I didn't expect to be made out like a bad guy because I didn't research fish and gaming laws in the continental 50 before purchasing. Lesson learned I guess. I guess that when I logged on to so many websites and saw reputable buisness's offering them for sale, I never got the notion that I should check and see whether or not I could legally purchase one. Actually, I've never done that with any frog purchase. I'm still in a grey area about it all. I read one thing that says it's illegal to possess it, I read another that says its not. I have been in communication with the seller who re-iterates that he is in touch with gaming officils every year before he collects, etc. It just really sucks pretty much. I'm an honest man making an honest living and frogs are something that I enjoy. This on the other hand has not been enjoyable and I don't appreciate how I am made to look like a bad guy or a poacher or whatever. Oh well, I'm done on the topic.

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## Paul Rust

> You guys could have had a constructive conversation about this but instead it has degenerated into a back-and-forth argument and name calling. Let's be clear, as things stand, the worst that could happen to Jeff would be confiscation of the animals and an outside chance of a fine - there's a Lacey Act violation in there. Since the original advert was for CB, I don't think Jeff has much to worry about. Now, selling them on is a bigger issue - that could certainly lead to trouble.
> 
> Rather than berating each other, you should be reporting the original seller - give their full name and address to USFW and Arizona's equivalent.
> 
> Regarding the toads themselves, at this point they should not be released because of potential spread of diseases they may have picked up since entering captivity. If they are confiscated, they will either be destroyed or given to another local keeper. No one wins.
> 
> Now please be civil.


*Said like a true statesman John.* 
*Let me get in the mud a little more, if I may.*
*I could care less if people agree or not, in fact a good healthy argument is a great way to learn things and share opinions. However, when you start shooting at each other and making threats, thats where the constructive conversation stops. None of this was necessary and if John hadn't seen this already there would be trouble here. Keep it civil so I don't have to get involved, this is a friendly forum and we all need to work to keep it that way!*

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## Eel Noob

Great pix and animals.

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## Greg M

I followed this thread with great interest since I would love to have a Colorado River/Sonoran desert toad. Jeff, did you get some help resolving this issue? I ask this out of genuine interest and not a desire to create any trouble.

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## tadpole

sorry to say, this is a sad thread for me to read. after the first page i fired off an email to an administrator because what i'd read had troubled me. my considerations were the large number of animals first being aquired, how they would be housed, and finally offered for sale from this very thread. i could not understand what appeared to be an such eccentric predilection for owning all these toads, and how a person in possession of his senses could expect to even profit from such an endeavor, considering what it takes in time and materials to raise toads to maturity. and that's on top of the fact the animals appeared to have been illegally collected. i am totally against the exploitation of live animals, especially wild populations, for profit, accent on exploitation. oth, i don't see anything wrong with offering well cared for animals in reasonable quantities offered for sale to interested parties.

at the time i wrote the email to administrator john, and being new to this site, i had only read the first page of the thread, and thought that's as far as it had gone. i was reading back posts and discovered there were 2 more pages of responses i had missed. looks like the cat got out of the bag, so i don't feel so self-concious about publishing my opinion here now.

one fact i wasn't aware of is that this is the toad that people use to get high. man, that just poisons this whole thing for me. here's a link you can read up on why people want this toad, and why it goes for $165:
Legal Weed|Legal Bud|Legal Ways To Get High - Bufo Alvarius/Colorado River Toad/Sonoran Desert Toad

just a guess, but i'd say the only people buying this animal are not planning on having a happy healthy pet. scroll down that link and read what people are doing to this animal for their pleasure. the one description is apparently just some guys in a pet store surreptitiously try to get the venom out of the toad before the manager catches them. these animals are going to be sold into a god knows what kind of  a life for drug users. talk about animal exploitation. uuhhgg. sorry guys but that's how i see it, and you will not convince me otherwise with your glib descriptions about what a wonderful pet this makes. and now this website by advertising these animals for sale is party to everything dark about about the pet trade.

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## Greg M

I agree that, regrettably, some Colorado River toads are bought by people desiring to get high (or whatever the proper term is). I personally don't believe that Jeff purchased these toads with a desire to sell them to people who use them for such purposes. Let me just say, for the record, that I am cautiously interested in owning a legally-obtained Colorado River Toad, because they are reported to make interesting pets, and certainly *not* for the purposes of getting stoned, end of story. I imagine there are many here, including John, that feel the same way. John's pic of a female Colorado River toad is just stunning! For me, the illicit activities associated with this toad are a real impediment to owning a marvelous pet.

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## Jeff Kennedy

I started to type out a long response yet again but it is pointless. I would just be sounding like a broken record. The people that know me and have met me or dealt with me can attest to my character and my intentions. I have a career. Frogs are a passion of ours and a hobby that up to this point, brought us nothing but happiness. On top of our normal jobs, we put in 5-6 hours a day, everyday caring for our frogs. They are some of the healthiest and beautiful frogs that you will find. Every detail on down to poop removal on a daily basis, water bowl changes, on down to the insects that go into there mouths is thought out and planned. We spend $40 a week alone just on fresh fruits and vegetables for our many insect colony's as our frogs reap the benefit of ingesting them. The Colorado River Toad is one of our favorite species. We had several before this purchase that too were obtained captive bred. We had a huge response when people saw that we had acquired several from people wanting to purchase some however these were for us and we obviously weren't going to sell anything in the condition that these guys arrived in. We speant several hundred dollars taking them to the vet so that we could obtain the prescription drugs to treat them for possible parasites and they put a staggering blow on our dubia roach colony as these were the best things for them when we was trying to rehabilitate them. You're right. We have spent a fortune on these toads but we wouldn't have it any other way. The joy that they give us on a daily basis is worth the amount of money. When we decided to offer up a select few (2-3) a month or so ago, it was merely to share the wealth. The $75 price tag that we had initially put on them really didn't even touch what we have in them at this point but we are actually good hearted people and wanted to pass them along to people whom really wanted them, but couldn't shell out $165-$300 for one. The people from this forum that inquired about them are well respected people and I know that they would have been cared for in just the same fashion. They aren't "druggies" or "toad lickers" or whatever you want to call people whom own one. We are also currently conducting an extensive study on the Giant African Bullfrog and house (45) of them at the moment. Then there is an additional (30+) PacMans, (10) cornutas, (4) aurita, some dart frogs and mantellas. Oh yeah, a pet rat, ferret and sulcatta tortoise too. What are we hoping to acquire from all of that? Could it be that we are merely animal lovers (strong on the frog side) and that we get pleasure out of them?? Since you want to label me as someone that's target customer base is junkies, then what will they get from the African Bullfrogs that I will sell when our study is done and I will offer some of these up for sale? As far as legality's and what not, I did some checking myself starting many weeks ago. Crazy right?!?!?!? You have me labeled as someone that is doing something shady, yet I contacted the authorities myself!!!!!!!! I wasn't successful with Arizona. Apparently they are hard to get ahold of, however I did contact New Mexico. They are going to try to get in touch with Arizona themselves and let me know their findings. I respect peoples right to an opinion but before you start throwing daggers at someone and trying to label them, you might want to actually have some kind of idea about whom you're talking about. I've received several personal messages since this post first went public a month or so ago from people applauding us and supporting us because they know us and know that our heart is in the right place. Why they haven't went public I guess is becuase they don't want to be drug into the middle of this and have their reputation sullied over accusations that aren't even the case. That's all. I let all of that roll straight off of my tongue. If I used incorrect grammer or something is mispelled or doesn't make sense, please excuse me. Oh, and I guess I still sent a long response.

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## Kurt

I do keep this species and have never licked it, nor do I ever intend to. I find the thought revolting. Also, the same can be said of John.
 It's not really fair to link all people that keep or are interested in this species together as junkies. Sure, there are idiots out there who want them for that purpose, but the ones I have met have all been stupid, burned-out teenagers and no self-respecting vendor would ever sell them anything, never mind a live animal.
Also, it is quite legal to possess the toad, it is illegal to harvest or possess the toxins. At that point its a controlled substance. It can also be deadly if taken.

Jeff, that was a long post and I actually read it. Lately, when I see a long post I don't read it as I have too many things to get to, but I read this one.

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## Malachi

I like these toads...looks.. size.. ect .

i am sorry i cant convince you otherwise...also its over exaggerated on being a real drug..i could explain but i can't apparently change your mind soooo not worth it

Its ridiculous to think we use the toads as a drug or sell them for the use.

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## tadpole

> no self-respecting vendor would ever sell them anything, never mind a live animal.


the vendor jeff bought these from could give a flying @#@* about who he sells to. he's out nightly corralling up more of these animals to supply the drug trade. by buying the quantity jeff did does nothing but encourage this vendor to go grab more, and apparently subject them to sordid conditions resulting in the poor condition described.

jeff is trying to take the high road by saying he's rescued these animals from a horrible withering death. BS. he's as much of a contributor to the species collection pressure as the burn outs you just mentioned. the only way to stop this unsavory business is if the demand for the animals stops, period.

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## Jeff Kennedy

Tadpole. Try to read it all again and maybe it will sink in. I bought what I thought was CAPTIVE BRED specimens. I had already owned several CAPTIVE BRED specimens and wanted more because I LIKE THE SPECIES. It was after receiving them that I was suspicious that they were NOT CAPTIVE BRED and delved further into the matter. obviously if I would have known this I would not have purchased because it has been constant work and $$$ to get them back to health. I can see though that you seem to be someone that just wants to argue with everyone so I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I don't need to. I have done everything on my end that I need to. I have rehabilitated many of these toads and have them healthy and thriving again. I am proud of that. Even though I was mislead and stand to lose a lot of money, I still reported it to authorities even though their really is no jurisdiction over any of it because it is all hearsay. I have no ideal where the toads I purchased originated from as once again I was under the impression that they were CAPTIVE BRED but I've reported it to several authorities and we are all trying to put our heads together on the matter. It seems to me though with the lack of response, that the authorities must have better things to do then to worry about a handful of toads that may or may not have originated from their state. But again Tadpole, you can believe what you want as you are just wanting to argue with someone. Anybody that wants proof to this, just do a search of the posts in which Tadpole has enlightened us with since joining the forum. He sure is spreading a lot of cheer!!!

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## tadpole

> It is totally illegal to collect them in New Mexico, and it is only  legal to collect a handful in Arizona under a state fishing license and  under no circumstances can they be brought out of the state - that is  illegal.  Not only is that a violation of the state laws of Arizona and  New Mexico, but it is a federal offense under the Lacey Act.  USFW would  love his contact information.(john clare/admin)


simple question jeff, who's the vendor?

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## Jeff Kennedy

Simple Answer: Eric Lago MS Reptilian Hobbyists - Home
When I purchased, I responded to an ad on Kingsnake. At that time (as there is right now), there were several other people on Kingsnake offering River Toads for sale. I was in the market for some, but went with Eric because he claimed to have around 100 that he raised from eggs. We went on to exchange emails about the species. He knew quite a bit about them, their husbandry, breeding, etc. and had been working with the species for several years which is why I went with him. It was sometime after I purchased that he stopped listing on Kingsnake, I am assuming because he now has his website up and running and can sell them through there. To this day he still maintains that the toads I purchased came from a group of eggs that he raised and that he does have permission from AZ to collect and that he checks with them every year before he goes out and does so.

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## tadpole

thank you for a civil answer, jeff. i think this thread has taught all of us, and that's a positive.

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## Jeff Kennedy

Not that it is anyones business but I was able to find this and I wanted to post it. It is the old email that I sent to Eric the day after receiving my sick, uncared for toads. It really isn't anyones business what was exchanged amongst us but I am fed the f@^& up with kamikaze posters jumping on this thread and trying to call me out like I am some kind of crook or a creep that doesn't care about these toads. I have busted my *** everyday to get these guys back to health and have never once asked for anything from anyone. When Ella and I post about them on this board, it is because we are happy with what we have done and want to share our experience working with the toads to the rest of you. My blood is completely boiling as I KNOW what my intentions were when purchasing them and I KNOW the amount of work that I put in daily just to care for these guys. I do it becuase I WANT TO. the bring me happiness. I am fed up to my gills with people just dropping in this forum whom don't know what they are talking about, stir up a bunch of sh*%, then just disappear after they question my character and integrity. Anyways, on to the email that I had sent Eric.....

From: Jeff Kennedy <***************@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Message about**: JUMBO Sonoran Desert Toad PAIRS (B. alvarius)
To: "Eric Lago" <msreptilianhobbyists@yahoo.com>
Date: Saturday, August 21, 2010, 12:57 AM

Hi Eric,

I want to be as tactful as I can about this issue. I want to first begin by saying that throughout all of our correspondence, I was impressed with your knowledge pertaining to husbandry and your willingness to bargain with me in regards to a deal that would work out for the both of us. I was under the impression that you had been captively breeding the Colorado River Toads as you had so many, but now I am not so sure. One of the first concerns that I had was that I had asked you several times to provide me with your information in regards to your work with the species. This never got answered but I wasn't too concerned as I know that you had vehicle related issues going on this week as well. The other issue that I look back on now is how several times I referenced you hooking me up with some "fattys" or "fat ones" pertaining to the toad's size however you never commented on that. Again, I wasn't too concerned as you seemed like a very stand up guy and one that knew about husbandry techniques for the species. Now I want to talk about yesterday and the shipment that I received. When I opened the package and saw the majority of the animals that was sent, I was shocked. The first issue for me was the size difference. We had spoke of 3-4" sub adults which is what I prepped for when accommodating my area with tanks for them but this really wasn't an issue. I can get more tanks and who is going to complain about getting larger, more desirable toads? What I couldn't believe, was how gravely underweight 85% of the order was. Most of these guys are just walking skeletons with skin from there stomachs dragging the ground and there backbone exposed, looking like its about to poke through the skin. Over 50% had open sores and or redness throughout there belly's and hands. Two of them, had birth defects. One doesn't have an eye and the other is missing a complete foot that never formed. The group as a whole is going to take an extreme amount of TLC for me to be able to nurse them back to health if that is even possible on some. Immediately, I fed out (10) dozen large crickets to the toads. They were completely starved. I fear that I stand to lose at least 30-40% of my order from illnesses that were present upon me receiving them. The other two with the birth defects, I would just as soon not even had. If I would have known these two were included, I would have only bought (18). Another note that has some concern for me is that I have noticed all that have defecated thus far, have had runny stools. This is a sign of parasites which shouldn't be present in captive born specimens. I will leave the ball in your court now as to what you feel like you should do to make this right. You know what you sent me and you know that it really wasn't fair to me. I don't know that since we negotiated the price if you sent me the bottom of the barrel toads and saved your better ones for the people whom wanted to pay full price but I am not happy about this transaction. Please provide insight on all the topics that I have mentioned throughout this email and what you think a good solution is for the both of us. I look forward to your reply.

Jeff Kennedy

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## tadpole

who's disappeared jeff? the only issue on the table is your now obvious contribution to the exploitation of live animals mainly used for illegal drugs. because you are an "outraged good guy herp dealer" does not change this fact. 

i really wish you hadn't posted that last description, we already knew what type of person this vendor is just from what he does for a living.this guy really needs some heat put under his butt. raiding wildlife habitat to accumulate more animals than could be properly cared for is the horror story that consistently makes the news, and gives all pet dealers a black eye. 

what's to stop this guy from doing this over and over? how many animals have already withered away because of him? and the longer he gets away with it, the more profit he makes, the longer he will continue to operate in this fashion. as a frog owner myself, i have to say this situation disgusts me a lot more than all of your misdirected "outrage". so stop feeling sorry for yourself and as you like to say, look at the bigger picture.

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## Malachi

This thread should be deleted or locked. There is nothing left here but tidbits for trolls to chew on. Further posting will not contribute anything to this community.

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## Jeff Kennedy

I agree. I'm done contributing to it. The majority knows and understands the situation. Some people just like to argue for arguing sake. There is nothing that can be said that Tadpole isn't going to twist into something else to try and make himself sound more educated and right. I have more important things to do with my day. Thanks again to all that PM'd me showing their support and sharing with me the frustration of one bad apple that wants to ruin the experience for everyone. I'm done with this thread so take your shots Tadpole. I'm serving you up a nice fat pitch right down the middle that you can swing away at!!! Enjoy arguing with yourself!!

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## Kevin1

After reading this thread, and since I'm currently in training to be a Department of Fish and Game Warden I feel I should mention a thing or two.
The best way to deal with the illegal poaching of our native wildlife is what I believe Seth mentioned. Which is to make them a renewable resource like many fish and game departments have done with fish for the fishing hobby, though what they've done with that still isn't entirely flawless, it does however ensure the survival of the said species. Until then the best way to stop it is to stop the demand by not purchasing these poached animals. Jeff i know you said you were under the impression that they were C.B.(captive bred) which is understandable.
Though that leads me to another point I wanted to bring up. There's a big difference between captive bred and captive born. Being captive born is just as bad as wild caught, maybe even more so. According to most DFG departments the lawful thing to do would be to turn the poached animals in. Your doing the right thing Jeff by calling them. I thank and appreciate you for doing so.

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## Kurt

> the vendor jeff bought these from could give a flying @#@* about who he sells to. he's out nightly corralling up more of these animals to supply the drug trade. by buying the quantity jeff did does nothing but encourage this vendor to go grab more, and apparently subject them to sordid conditions resulting in the poor condition described.
> 
> jeff is trying to take the high road by saying he's rescued these animals from a horrible withering death. BS. he's as much of a contributor to the species collection pressure as the burn outs you just mentioned. the only way to stop this unsavory business is if the demand for the animals stops, period.


Unfortunately, I doubt the demand will dissapear. Also, I did say self-respecting vendors, obviously Jeff was dealing with a guy who was out to make a quick buck, not some  onewho makes a living from vending frogs, someone who has a reputation to worry about.

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## Eel Noob

I do believe sometime threads should be closed when there's no information being shared but people are just bickering back and forth or trolls just trolling.

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## Rabbit87

My boyfriend and I have 5 Colorodo River Toads that we got from Jeff a few months ago. They arrived in good health. They just needed some water and food, which was expected. They adapted to their new environment well and seemed very happy. Since then, we have done many changes. Our toads seem happier then ever. When we first got them we had thought about them possibly not being CB, but that did not stop us from keeping them or loving them. If we had not adopted them, someone somewhere would have and who knows if they would treat them as well as we do. We do not have any bad feelings about keeping our toads. We have them in a 75 gallon tank with a large water dish that they all fit into comfortably and a big half log for them to burrow under. They are all very healthy and getting big!  :Smile: 

Ella- I was just wondering what substrate you are using for your toads? Once they got a little bigger, close to full grown did they start to eat less? Also, do your toads jump around the tank at their reflection in the glass or at the lid? Ours do. lol Its really funny and cute  :Smile:  Well, hope your toads are doing great! Can't wait for your reply! Take care.

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## Jeff Kennedy

Hi Misty,

Thanks so much for the update and even more for the pics!!! When you sent the pics last night, Ella and I flipped through them a couple of times and just smiled. It makes us very happy to know that they are receiving the same TLC that they were receiving with us. The whole River Toad debacle has been an unfortunate chain of events for us, personally and financially. The silver lining in it is people like yourself whom have stepped up for the shear love of the species and given them a loving home. We are happy to say that the majority of the group have been adopted out to loving enthusiasts such as yourself whom will continue to offer the same care in which we were offering. As far as the eating habits, yes it will slow as they age but these guys always seem to be eager eaters. It is when they are full grown and less active that they will pack on those extra pounds and really start to become nice display pieces (in my opinion). As far as their zany behavior? Yes, that is just them being them. When it is feeding time, Ella and I will actually laugh out loud at the way in which they will smack each other in the face with their tongues if the other toad beats them to the cricket or roach. Keep up the good work and again, Thanks for loving them!

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## Rabbit87

Hey guys! You are more then welcome! We really love these guys and want to give them the best home we can provide  :Smile:  Erik is already planning to build them a bigger home out of plexi glass and possibly add a water side with a water filtration system and everything. We are still doing our research to see if the ideas we have will work, but we are pretty sure it will!  :Smile:  We have hundreds of photos lol so we will definitely be posting more soon! They are getting soo big and fat, it's the cutest thing! We are glad that things are settling and they're all going to good homes  :Smile:  Sure we will be in touch again in the future. Take care guys & Thanks again!!

-Misty & Erik

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## Digital

I just want to throw my 2 cents in, I don't mean to offend anyone, with this. But honestly, if you get the little red flags. Don't you think you should hold off on buying from that seller. I'm new to the frog/toad world. But I been breeding other animals for quite a while now. Wouldn't it be easier to see if anyone has bought from the person your plaining to order from. Like see what other people experience was with him. I understand that no one wants to pay lot's of $$$ to get sick animals. So why not do some research ahead of time and then order. I'm not trying to offended anyone here and I understand some  people have to learn from their mistakes, but to me when it involves lots of money to buy them and then have to spend more getting back to health. I would rethink things and really be on the look out for the little red flags when ordering from someone.

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