# General Topics > General Discussion & News >  Clean up crew questions

## ericbrookey

So I'm trying to find other clean up crew suggestions for my bioactive crested gecko tanks. I seed with springtails from my cultures every couple weeks and some arthropods a couple times. I really don't see the springtails in quantities I expected but I do see some arthropods. I have a layer of joshs frog moss over jungle mix sub and a drainage layer so I'm thinking the tails are just hidden in the moss. I do have a faint ammonia smell so I think I need to do more.

Has anyone tried mealworms and/or earthworms to help clean up ureates? I know this is a frog forum but asking on a few relevant boards for a variety of reaponses.

Thanks for reading and happy new year!

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## jclee

I add earthworms to anything with deep enough substrate. It's worked out wonderfully so far.

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## ericbrookey

> I add earthworms to anything with deep enough substrate. It's worked out wonderfully so far.


What do you feel is deep enough?

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## jclee

My hermit crabs have 6+ inches, and that's been excellent. I've tried with 2 inches, and it seems ok. Don't put too many in, in case they don't make it. You don't want them fouling the tank. I often just pop a pair of younguns in (often from another tank) and hope for the best. They work wonders in flower pots, too. Be mindful of the tanks, design though, so that they can't get trapped/drown too easily. Again, that would foul the tank rather quickly. Keep the starter group small and see what happens.

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## ericbrookey

Thanks. I've got about 4 inches of soil so will try a couple and see what happens. There is no standing water in the drainage layer, just a small reptile bowl on the top. My fear is they get trapped in the hydro balls and foul it up when they dry out and rot. Would be impossible to get them out without tearing the tank down. I wouldn't even know they were there.

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## Dace

If you use earthworms, make sure you use red wrigglers or similar heat tolerant species- others might die and rot in the substrate if they overheat. Also expect most of the substrate to be turned into worm castings if they end up thriving.
i presume by "arthropods" you mean isopods? Because springtails (along with all insects, crustaceans, arachnids etc.) are also arthropods. You can try using different species of isopods and sprintails- I find that Oniscus isopods and Folsomia springtails do better if it's really damp, while pillbugs and a small brown unidentified springtail do better in dryer conditions. While others, like Porcellio scaber and Tomocerus sp. springtails are quite adaptable. So you can try slightly different varieties.
Other organisms that work as clean up crews include terrestrial amphipods, (like terrestrial scuds), Underwoodia sp. millipedes (unlike other millipedes they are non toxic. They have behave similar to isopods but also aerate the soil like worms), flowerpot worms (can't remember scientific name, like tiny translucent earthworms) and even cockroaches- dubia roaches and similar species are very good at hiding and easily avoid being eaten if they escape into a vivarium. They too behave much like isopods and will grow very slowly and live a long time if the vivarium isn't heated. I've got several loose in one of my gray treefrog's tanks. I rarely see them, maybe once a month some of them will venture near the glass late at night and I swear one or two of them have been in there for at least a year- getting pretty big but still not fully grown. They don't bother the plants if there's plenty of dead leaf litter and frog poop to eat.

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## jclee

I will add that, after my most recent tank dismantling, I have realized that worms can navigate leca balls fairly well. I'd worry less about that than about drowning, but if flooding isn't a problem, I say go for it. Again, start with just a few to seed the tank, but it should work out just fine.  :Smile:

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## ericbrookey

> If you use earthworms, make sure you use red wrigglers or similar heat tolerant species- others might die and rot in the substrate if they overheat. Also expect most of the substrate to be turned into worm castings if they end up thriving.


Are the worms used for bait sold at Walmart ok? I think they are red wrigglers, but not sure.




> i presume by "arthropods" you mean isopods?


Yes, I meant isopods, sorry. Sold at LLL in small containers. I've put two of them in each 18x24. Is that enough?




> Because springtails (along with all insects, crustaceans, arachnids etc.) are also arthropods. You can try using different species of isopods and sprintails- I find that Oniscus isopods and Folsomia springtails do better if it's really damp, while pillbugs and a small brown unidentified springtail do better in dryer conditions. While others, like Porcellio scaber and Tomocerus sp. springtails are quite adaptable. So you can try slightly different varieties.
> Other organisms that work as clean up crews include terrestrial amphipods, (like terrestrial scuds), Underwoodia sp. millipedes (unlike other millipedes they are non toxic. They have behave similar to isopods but also aerate the soil like worms), flowerpot worms (can't remember scientific name, like tiny translucent earthworms) and even cockroaches- dubia roaches and similar species are very good at hiding and easily avoid being eaten if they escape into a vivarium. They too behave much like isopods and will grow very slowly and live a long time if the vivarium isn't heated. I've got several loose in one of my gray treefrog's tanks. I rarely see them, maybe once a month some of them will venture near the glass late at night and I swear one or two of them have been in there for at least a year- getting pretty big but still not fully grown. They don't bother the plants if there's plenty of dead leaf litter and frog poop to eat.


Wow, great info. Exactly what I was looking for. I've fed dubs but don't think any of them survived beyond a couple days. The geckos only go down to the bottom at night but they are pretty good hunters. I was hoping alot of their feces would go to fertilizing the moss and so far I think it's working but the geckos sure are pooping machines when they are healthy.

Thanks for the excellent response. I guess you can't have too much variety in a clean up crew.

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## ericbrookey

> I will add that, after my most recent tank dismantling, I have realized that worms can navigate leca balls fairly well. I'd worry less about that than about drowning, but if flooding isn't a problem, I say go for it. Again, start with just a few to seed the tank, but it should work out just fine.


Good to know. Even with good aeration and clean up crews, how often should I replace the substrate? Hoping for at least 6 months.

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## Dace

> Are the worms used for bait sold at Walmart ok? I think they are red wrigglers, but not sure.
> 
> 
> Yes, I meant isopods, sorry. Sold at LLL in small containers. I've put two of them in each 18x24. Is that enough?
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, great info. Exactly what I was looking for. I've fed dubs but don't think any of them survived beyond a couple days. The geckos only go down to the bottom at night but they are pretty good hunters. I was hoping alot of their feces would go to fertilizing the moss and so far I think it's working but the geckos sure are pooping machines when they are healthy.
> 
> Thanks for the excellent response. I guess you can't have too much variety in a clean up crew.


If they are red wrigglers, and they're not dyed or anything they should be fine. But since red wrigglers have a reputation for being poor fishing bait make sure they're not common nightcrawlers (Lumbricus terrestris) which cannot withstand higher temperatures.
i would say two isopods in each isn't enough to start a strong colony. Especially since you can't even guarantee a breeding pair. If possible, I say recover them and put them all in the same vivarium. Within months (depending on species, porcellio breed and grow fastest) you should have hundreds to seed the other vivariums. If you can't do this just see if you can find 5-10 to put in one vivarium.

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## ericbrookey

> If they are red wrigglers, and they're not dyed or anything they should be fine. But since red wrigglers have a reputation for being poor fishing bait make sure they're not common nightcrawlers (Lumbricus terrestris) which cannot withstand higher temperatures.
> i would say two isopods in each isn't enough to start a strong colony. Especially since you can't even guarantee a breeding pair. If possible, I say recover them and put them all in the same vivarium. Within months (depending on species, porcellio breed and grow fastest) you should have hundreds to seed the other vivariums. If you can't do this just see if you can find 5-10 to put in one vivarium.


I meant two cultures of isopods, not just two creatures. Each culture contains an unknown amount but I've seen them for sure.

Where does one buy guaranteed red wrigglers?

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## Dace

> I meant two cultures of isopods, not just two creatures. Each culture contains an unknown amount but I've seen them for sure.
> 
> Where does one buy guaranteed red wrigglers?


ohhhhh haha. Should definitely be more than enough then.

it's fairly easy to tell the difference between nightcrawlers and wrigglers. Just look for the more distinct rings. One (slightly gruesome) way to tell for sure is to pull off the tail of a red wriggler. If it oozes a pungent yellow fluid then it's definitely a wriggler.
Eisenia fetida
Lumbricus terrestris

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## ericbrookey

Thank you. The rings are more defined on crawlers I presume?

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## Dace

No, they're more defined on wrigglers. The reason the scientific names of the two species are in my post is because I tried to provide links to google image searches of them.

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## ericbrookey

> No, they're more defined on wrigglers. The reason the scientific names of the two species are in my post is because I tried to provide links to google image searches of them.


Got it. Thanks a ton!

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