# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) >  Anyone heard of designer frogs.com

## clayton1089

Was wondering if anyone has heard of them or have bought frogs through them because I noticed they had good prices and was thinking of buying from them but wanted some opinions first. Thanks in advance!

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## Paul

I looked into them several months ago and found nothing but bad things about them. You will be better server to either go to a Reptile show in your area or buy online from one of the more reputable breeders. 

Joshs Frogs

LLL Reptile

Mike Novy

Forum members who are selling their Dart off spring. 

are the ones I know.

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## TAPDart91

I ordered from them. Idk my frogs are fine but what the above is saying dont sound good. I just liked their prices. And was my first frog buy

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## TAPDart91

Josh's frogs looked promising. I visited their sight trying to deside where to go.

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## Paul

Josh and LLL are both great. I have ordered form both sites and got some very healthy frogs.

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## TAPDart91

I bought six frogs from desinger frog and it has been 2 months. They are all eating and active. Only two of my six are still a little skiddish. And yes price and being new to the hobby are what caused me to choose them. But my frogs where delivered. Safe n sound

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## Paul

The issues i heard about (and they are what I was told not first hand) is that they in correctly identify their frogs and do false advertising. They have changed their name 3 or 4 times in the last 1 - 2 years. They just got a bad rap so I steered clear of them. I don't think anyone will crucify anyone over where they buy frogs  :Smile: 

but thank you for letting us know you got some from them and they are all healthy. Positive reviews are good for members to see

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## TAPDart91

Yeah I am very new to all of this. And with a kid I know a budget so I figured I would atleast let them know i chose that rout and it seems to be okay so far. Also in my research before purchasing I noticed that their frogs seem to be classified about the same as everywhere els with the scientific term available as well as a sorta main stream commercial name. But yes like you said I dont think it matters to much. Though josh's frogs has more of a selection and surien does aswell.

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## TAPDart91

I see you have used Josh's Im certain I will to at some point. For me its about availability as well as pricing and a healthy animal. I seeb that Josh's. Has an awesome selection. Ill have to give LLL a look. Are they reasonable with prices?

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## Paul

LLL is similar to Josh's frogs. I bought my Darts from Josh and my Mantellas from LLL.

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## TAPDart91

Well they are both high but not to bad. Certainly more of a selection then desingerfrog

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## Lynn

Hi,
I have never purchased from DF
So, I have absolutely no idea as to their reputation or the health of their frogs, etc.
They have a very good guarantee. And yes ; their frogs are reasonably priced.

Personally, It bothers me that they _re-name_ the species and claim the "name" is TM
I would love to know why they do this, as it just creates confusion ?

BE VERY CAREFUL THIS TIME OF YEAR
I don't know where you live?
It's hot. This is a tricky time of year to purchase a frog that has to be delivered. 

This is how I have a frog shipped to me...if at all:
I pick up an OVERNIGHT delivery at my FedEx hub . This way I'm there when when the HUB opens.
If  I'm told told it can not be sent that way--- I don't buy it.
You want to be - SURE - the delivery is protected from over-heating!!!! Ask questions !
I bring a frog safe container with well dampened paper towel on the bottom. 
I carefully transfer the frog to re-hydrate the frog as quickly as possible !!!
You want the container to be large enough to get your hand into it so you can open the deli container *safely*.

 :Butterfly:

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## bill

The issue with designer frogs, as I understand it, was that they sell hydrids and give them their own names. I'm not sure how much is true, but I would imagine there is a reason they have changed names so often. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## clayton1089

Well im wanting to get a sexed pair or proven pair of Azureus without paying the almost $300 which is why I was attracted to DF. I live in Washington state and there isnt very many shows around here or reptile shops. I mean I want to get good frogs but I kinda have a budget as well.

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## TAPDart91

I personally would go with DF any questions after your purchase . You can email them for answers i was just informed that they mix all of there frogs bloodlines so they are not inbred or sibling frogs

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## clayton1089

Well I just wamt to make sure that I will be getting a decent pair that wont die after a few weeks or have any deformities. With the lower price it would sure be nice...

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## bill

> Well im wanting to get a sexed pair or proven pair of Azureus without paying the almost $300 which is why I was attracted to DF. I live in Washington state and there isnt very many shows around here or reptile shops. I mean I want to get good frogs but I kinda have a budget as well.


Unfortunately, if you want a proven pair, then forget a budget. You are not going to find a proven pair of any species cheap. Even the least expensive species of darts command high pricing for proven pairs. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## clayton1089

Well how much should just a sexed pair cost me?

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## bill

Darts are sold as froglets. And while the breeder may do their best to get you a sexed pair, the odds are 50-50. It's very difficult to determine sex at such young ages. 

Are you searching for a pair to breed? 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## TAPDart91

DF has sexed adult paris from 150$ to 200$ range. I know everyone seems to have negitive things to say about desingerfrogusa but i ordered six frogs fron the and not one of them is deformed or sick they are all healthy and active. Aside from the two skidish ones that hide when i come up to the tank. I dont have any real complaints about their frogs. Personally. I think they are more fair with there prices because most commons breeds of dart frogs. Breed like "frogs" and other websights are making a huge hustle off of them. Granted thereis specimen. That are harder to care for and breed. I feel as though. The common breeds are priced more fairly on DF. Ofcourse everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

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## TAPDart91

And I cant really count 2 of the frogs being skiddish as an issure. Naturally they are wild accuring amphibian so I would expect them to hide some what from my bipedal goofy self

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## TAPDart91

Drsinger frogs. If you DO have a budget like most of us. They are very fair with pricing and i can only speak for myself but i have had good experience with them so far and all of my frogs where very healthy. Besides nomatter where you order frogs from you have to pay. Quite a bit for shipping alone so when i started looking I chose DF because the price of their frogs seemed more fair. Im not sure where all the bad PR keeps coming from but With any company there is bound to be some i suppose. Only time and satisfied customer's will be able to fix that for them

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## bill

Here are a couple threads about designer and their previous "incarnations":
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gen...on-thread.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sou...warehouse.html

While I agree, everybody is entitled to their own opinions, I used to think as you do at one point and then I met and had lengthy conversations with some of the top breeders of dart frogs, I saw the difference. 

Sure, your darts are currently fine. It's the future generations that come into question. The f2 and f3 generations notoriously have weakened genetics and developmental problems. 





Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## clayton1089

Well I was thinking about breeding and I know they are better housed in pairs as well. And yes I looked at their prices and seem to be a lot more fair as far as my standards go.

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## bill

As far as having a budget, my response is the same I give to everyone. I Do EVERYTHING in my part of the frog hobby, from building my vivs, to purchasing my frogs. It CAN be done on a small budget. It just takes patience and perseverance. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## TAPDart91

Well this was all very informative I learned alot of things. I did not know or expect to find out today

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## TAPDart91

Thank you everyone for your insight ill be sure to make my pairs up of frogs ordered from many other dealer to utilize the ones iv already aquired as well as widening the gene pool to insure healthy offspring. Does this sound like a sane solution to those of you who are not new to the hobby?

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## derezzed

> Well im wanting to get a sexed pair or proven pair of Azureus without paying the almost $300 which is why I was attracted to DF. I live in Washington state and there isnt very many shows around here or reptile shops. I mean I want to get good frogs but I kinda have a budget as well.



You shouldn't have to pay $300 for a sexed/proven pair of Azureus... you can get proven pairs for closer to $200 and I've seen and sold sexed pairs in the $100-150 range. Keep an eye on the classifieds section of the forums.



As for the main topic here... Do NOT breed the frogs you have with frogs from other vendors. That is the big concern everyone has with these guys. You can't trust that what they are selling you is actually what they are selling you. With the renaming and hybrids that they have done... you could have a true Azureus or you could have a frog that was the result of an Azureus and another tinc breeding but just happens to look more like an azureus so they sold it that way since they weren't really able to sell their hybrids. The way they have changed their names and stories so many times makes it tough to believe them when they tell you what they are giving you. Everyone else in the PDF hobby does not want the muddied bloodlines they have to be mixed with the existing lines in the hobby. So, again... do NOT mix them with other breeders' frogs. Keep them isolated.

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## TAPDart91

Wouldnt a hybrid of kind have some kind of trates. Im by no means an expert on dart frogs but these azueres. Certainly look pure bred and put of four they are all practicly identical except for patterns im a little confused . And the names people are getting worried about or nicknames like when pitbull terrier are refered to as "bullies" they are still listed under their scientific names. I think people are mis understanding. I like being informed but again im a little lost.

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## derezzed

> Well I was thinking about breeding and I know they are better housed in pairs as well. And yes I looked at their prices and seem to be a lot more fair as far as my standards go.


their prices are so low because they have set up a giant operation and then alienated themselves from the rest of the hobby. They need to price things so low to the point where they lure in new froggers that don't know any better... or else they won't sell ANYTHING. The dart frog hobby is one that people (at least for the most part) pay attention to the sourcing of their frogs and this company is all about hiding things behind their "trademarks" instead of being open and honest like everyone else. 

Low prices does not mean "fair" prices... and it does not mean that they deserve your business just for being cheaper. Would you rather buy jeans from a company that treats its workers fairly or from a company that employs sweatshop labor? There is usually a reason one company is much cheaper than most others.... and it usually isn't pretty.

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## TAPDart91

Also i seen no hybrids on their current sight it even said crossbreeding is fround upon. So what makes anyone els online so much more trustworthy if your not picking your frogs fron the parents first hand in person who is to say these other vendors are so trustworthy. Esp when i got spend 300$ at another sight and get frogs that look exactly the same with potentially. Just as "muddied" bloodlines

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## derezzed

> Wouldnt a hybrid of kind have some kind of trates. Im by no means an expert on dart frogs but these azueres. Certainly look pure bred and put of four they are all practicly identical except for patterns im a little confused . And the names people are getting worried about or nicknames like when pitbull terrier are refered to as "bullies" they are still listed under their scientific names. I think people are mis understanding. I like being informed but again im a little lost.


not all the time... look up Robertus tincs... some of them are all blue and look a heck of a lot like azureus. So do "new river" tincs. I don't mean to come down hard on you or anything... but you said yourself that you are by no means an expert, how can you be so confident that they are absolutely azureus? I've been keeping them for 8 years, have had 3 different breeding pairs and raised tons of babies and I still see frogs that could trick me and I rely on the reputation of the person selling them to me to know what they are.

Azureus themselves actually have a TON of variation... some have fine spots, some have few spots, large spots, darker spots, darker blues/lighter blues... they are naturally VERY variable. That is why the reputation of the breeder you get them from is so important.

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## TAPDart91

Is there anybody around the St. Louis Illinois. Area that breeds so I could just cut out the middle man and the BS all together since its hard to trust anybody with a well put together websight apparently????

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## TAPDart91

Im just very distraught. Iv invested quite a bit into these frogs as a way a stress relife. Thats what i do to keep my mind of the stresses of the crazy shiz im dealing with. So now im hearing all of this and in a way hate to belive it. Im not discrediting you at all you sound very knolagable but as far as i know there is nobody around that is into the hobby locally. And i was hopping to get good specimen so as to reproduce good quality offspring so I could try my hand at this. And now i have to start all over and can not afford another mind blowing setback

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## clayton1089

Alright so bottom line is if I shouldnt buy from them than where should I buy and what should I expect to pay for a sexed pair?

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## derezzed

It is understandable that you are distraught... but it doesn't mean that you can't enjoy the frogs. Keep them, raise them, watch them, enjoy them. You don't have to breed everything you keep. Buy some other cool frogs from a more reputable breeder, keep them separately... and breed and raise those frogs. Problem solved  :Smile: 


Also, check it out here:
St. Louis Reptile Show

Plus, check the regional sections of the forums to find who is in your area.

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## TAPDart91

The only thing that really gets me heated is i ws trying to get a small breeding collection of about 5 different kinds of frogs and now the two I have basically dont count

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## TAPDart91

How do i find the regional section? I am still finding my way around this place.

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## derezzed

> How do i find the regional section? I am still finding my way around this place.


Sorry, that was directed more towards the other forums. Don't think there is one here.

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## derezzed

> The only thing that really gets me heated is i ws trying to get a small breeding collection of about 5 different kinds of frogs and now the two I have basically dont count


It happens... more people have been in odd situations like that than you'd think. I've been there too. To be honest, trying to pick up darts as breeding projects right off the bat isn't a great idea to begin with. That is another reason why a lot of people have issues with DF since they are pretty much advocating it. 

A LOT of people are breeding them and there really isn't a ton of "money" in it or anything. It's best to just find out what you like and keep them for your own enjoyment. If they breed that's great. It is fun to raise tadpoles and froglets... and you can sell the offspring. Just don't expect it to be profitable by any means (especially for the time put in). I use the little money I make on mine to pay for food and occasionally a new addition. That being said, breeding doesn't make you a successful keeper. Keeping healthy frogs does.

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## clayton1089

This is my thread can someone answer my questions lol

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## Amy

Clayton, instead of going with a sexed pair for $200-300, why not get a group of young Azureus, Josh's frogs has them for $39.99 each or 4 for 29.99 each, if you get 3 or 4, you have a pretty good chance of getting a pair in there.  That's what I would do.  If you have more males or females than you would like when they're adults, you could sell them.

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## Boondoggle

I drifted over from another forum but wanted to chime in.  I can feel your frustration.  

Just  a bit of history...Designer frogs was started not very long ago as a  family operation.  They often brag about the experience they have with  thousands and thousands of frogs, but have really only owned frogs for  about 3 years and have only been on anyone's radar for about the last  year.  It's now clear that from early on their goal was to create  "Designer Frogs", a derogatory term they've adopted and rebranded from  the hobby, from the very start.  Many hobbyists became suspicious of  this early on when it seemed that the website (whatever it was called  back then, they've gone through some name changes) seemed to focus a lot  of webspace on the argument that there was no difference between the  regional varieties of dart frogs and that because these regional  crossbreeds can occur, then they must occur in the wild.  They quoted  respected scientific sources selectively and out of context to make this  argument, completely ignoring the natural barriers that create and  maintain these regional varieties in the wild.  They even claimed that  they had completely mapped the dart frog phenotype and could create  through crossbreeding frogs that weren't just indistinguishable from  other varieties (perhaps some that weren't even in the hobby), but  actually WERE those varieties.  The "science" they used to back those  claims was ridiculous even from a novices point of view.

Obviously  they had seen the popularity of crossbred stock with other animals and  saw it as an unexploited niche in the hobby and assumed that it would be  wildly popular.  As you're probably learning now the great majority of  the dart frog community puts much more value on traceable natural  lines.  It probably has to do with the conservation-minded people that  the hobby appeals to.  It's not really conservation by any means, but  most hobbyists would like to preserve the frogs natural state, as many  may be gone/unavailable in our lifetimes.  Right or wrong, that is what  the hobby seems to value.  Initially Designerfrogs prices were on par  with the rest of the hobby, and their "hybrids" were about 3-4 times  that cost.  Eventually they had to lower their prices well below the  hobby to make any sales, including their "hybrids".  Now they have a  problem.  They are seen as a pariah by the legitimate hobby and they  claim to have 7000+ frogs that the hobby wont touch, so they've focused  their sales on wholesaling to pet stores, that really only care about  cost, and the new and uniformed.  The way they've targeted the uniformed  is by claiming/implying that many of the "innovations" that have been  common practice for years in the hobby were, not only their invention,  but that they're the only ones who offer such a service, for instance:

1)They've  trademarked the name "SAFE" and use it interchangeably with  "non-poisonous", and they strongly imply that other breeders are selling  dangerously poison frogs.  Wild frogs are poison because of their  "wild" diet.  Some wild caught frogs retain some toxicity for a while,  but the vast majority of frogs available are captive bred and any frog  on a captive diet cannot sequester enough alkaloids to create  appreciable toxins.  By that measure, almost all dart frogs are safe.  

2)They  muddy the language in any conversation about pathogens.  They will  claim that their collection is pathogen/chytrid/parasite free because  they are trademarked SAFE (wait, didn't that mean non toxic?).  When  asked if they do any testing they say they don't have to because their  animals are guaranteed 100% healthy.  No testing + rampant  crossbreeding, thus encouraging novel pathogens = 100% healthy.

3)  They claim to be the only ones who offer a live arrival guarantee.   Every reputable breeder offers that.  It is literally the minimum you  must do to be considered a legitimate breeder.

4) They claim to  be shipping experts that can ship in any weather.  Again, safe,  responsible, legal shipping is the minimum any legitimate breeder can  offer.

5) They claim that their crossbreeding will put less  stress on wild imports, when it historically has CLEARLY shown to put  more stress on wild imports by weakening confidence in the validity of  current hobby strains.

6) They've given really bad husbandry advice to newbies in an effort to sell more frogs, i.e. mixing and overcrowding.

7)  They've done their best to demonize methylparaben (additive used in  many fruit fly culture recipes).  All the available science shows it is  harmless in the quantities it's used in, but they've launched a smear  campaign on it's use to cast a shadow over other breeders and  distract from the actual health concerns that Designerfrogs risks.

8)  They claim that their frogs are much, much larger than other breeders  frogs of the same age and sex-able earlier.  I'm really oversimplifying  here but basically the factors contributing to growth are genetics,  feeding, absence of stress, absence of toxins.  They purchased their  founding stock from other hobbyists...same genetics.  They feed every  other day...not powerfeeding.  They overcrowd frogs...contributes to  stress.  They don't use methylparaben...many breeders do, many do not,  the science says it makes no difference.  I don't have any evidence that  their frogs are any larger or smaller as it's an unprovable claim, but  it would be very easy to just shave a couple months off the frogs age  and voila, you have the largest frogs for their age...not much of a  claim.

9) They anthropomorphize the frogs to a ridiculous  extent.  It's one thing to advertise happy healthy frogs, it's quite  another to claim that the frogs you breed enjoy human company, look  forward to interactions with the owners, are happier if they are  purchased and kept with the other BFF frogs they've been raised with,  and are guaranteed to never have territorial conflicts with the BFF  frogs they've been purchased with.  These were all actual claims.

10)   Things got real creepy when the owner got tired of the online criticism  and started threatening law suits, tracing IP addresses and asking for  personal information in an attempt to intimidate and stop the  comments/observations.  He's backed off recently because he kind of went  to far and published something on his website that could be construed  as harassment.

11) They've renamed species of frogs in a direct  attempt to muddy the waters.  It's an attempt to de-legitimize known  lines of frogs, and legitimize artificially created lines of frogs.   They claim it's to differentiate their frogs from other breeders, but  it's the really a misinformation campaign to put crossbreeds on an even  playing field.  

This is literally a sampling of just some of the  issues many of us have had with Designerfrogs.  Almost any of the above  points is designed to fool a buyer before he gets a chance to become a  little more informed.  I could keep going, but this post is probably too  long for anyone to read as is.  The bottom line is that Designerfrogs  has invested a ton of money into a venture which most hobbyists  recognize as bad for the hobby.  Instead of backing up and correcting  the major issues, they've doubled down and thrown up smokescreens.  They  proven themselves dishonest and have 7000 frogs of questionable  heritage that they need to get rid of.  They've already stated that they  do not recognize natural occurring variations as legitimate, so maybe  the original poster got pure azureus, and maybe he didn't.  If they're  claiming they are pure, then they probably are...but you can see that  there may be pressures for them not to be honest about a designation  that they have publicly said they don't respect anyway.  Even if you  don't disagree with the production of crossbreeds, they way they've gone  about it is deceptive and sleazy.  

...and while I don't have  any adult azureus pairs now, I sold my last two pairs for $150/pair plus  shipping.  For common frogs like azureus, that's not atypical.

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## TAPDart91

Thankyou !!thats what iv been waiting for a detailed answer thanks so much wow i had no idea they was that big of BS thats is all extreamly. Informative and exactly what i was looking for. Ill be sure to keep these frog by themselves and will not breed them. Also ill be sure to purchase from a better backed dealer thank you again so much for you perfect insight

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## Amy

> Alright so bottom line is if I shouldnt buy from them than where should I buy and what should I expect to pay for a sexed pair?


Can someone experienced with they hobby please answer this question for Clayton?  It seems to have gotten lost in the muddle of this thread.  I can only offer so much advice as my experience lies purely with tree frogs.

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## TAPDart91

Is there any way somebody like yourself would sale frogs with good lineage. If not who would you recommend. Me going to since from what others have told me I basically. Need to restart my collection from a better dealer if i ever plan on having a pair breed

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## Boondoggle

> Can someone experienced with they hobby please answer this question for Clayton?  It seems to have gotten lost in the muddle of this thread.  I can only offer so much advice as my experience lies purely with tree frogs.


Hi Clayton,

I don't believe anyone should buy from them, no.

As to your other questions, It depends on what you're looking for.  You might see sexed pairs from $150-$600 depending on species, availability, and hype, and you don't see sexed pairs nearly as frequently as neonates.  I think Amy had some really good advice.  Space considerations are an issue, but you can buy a small group for much less, give them a year, learn about taking care of them with hands-on experience, enjoy watching them grow, then when you determine you have a sexual pair sell off the rest.

Beware of the "Breed Frogs and Make Money" mentality.  It rarely works out that way, and even when it does it somehow can mysteriously strip all of the fun out of the hobby for you.  I speak from experience here.  

I'm new here and not sure about the rules yet.  Most of the sites I frequent are pretty touchy about naming vendors in posts, but if you PM me I can try and find someone who has what you're looking for.  That goes for you too TAPDart91.

...and Amy, tree frogs rule.  I have to get into them someday.

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## bill

> It happens... more people have been in odd situations like that than you'd think. I've been there too. To be honest, trying to pick up darts as breeding projects right off the bat isn't a great idea to begin with. That is another reason why a lot of people have issues with DF since they are pretty much advocating it. 
> 
> A LOT of people are breeding them and there really isn't a ton of "money" in it or anything. It's best to just find out what you like and keep them for your own enjoyment. If they breed that's great. It is fun to raise tadpoles and froglets... and you can sell the offspring. Just don't expect it to be profitable by any means (especially for the time put in). I use the little money I make on mine to pay for food and occasionally a new addition. That being said, breeding doesn't make you a successful keeper. Keeping healthy frogs does.


Couldn't have said it better myself  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## TAPDart91

> Hi Clayton,
> 
> I don't believe anyone should buy from them, no.
> 
> As to your other questions, It depends on what you're looking for.  You might see sexed pairs from $150-$600 depending on species, availability, and hype, and you don't see sexed pairs nearly as frequently as neonates.  I think Amy had some really good advice.  Space considerations are an issue, but you can buy a small group for much less, give them a year, learn about taking care of them with hands-on experience, enjoy watching them grow, then when you determine you have a sexual pair sell off the rest.
> 
> Beware of the "Breed Frogs and Make Money" mentality.  It rarely works out that way, and even when it does it somehow can mysteriously strip all of the fun out of the hobby for you.  I speak from experience here.  
> 
> I'm new here and not sure about the rules yet.  Most of the sites I frequent are pretty touchy about naming vendors in posts, but if you PM me I can try and find someone who has what you're looking for.  That goes for you too TAPDart91.
> ...


Thank you bery much Boondoggle

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## bill

Clayton, you can also check out Facebook (I know, of all places) for local breeders. Most larger localities have pages dedicated to their dart frog communities. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## clayton1089

Thank you everyone I have no plan on breeding for money just that if they do naturally its kinda a fun thing to watch happen and sure I might sell a few but I know im not going to get rich off it just if it paid for some supplies that would be fine by me :Smile:

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## TAPDart91

> I drifted over from another forum but wanted to chime in.  I can feel your frustration.  
> 
> Just  a bit of history...Designer frogs was started not very long ago as a  family operation.  They often brag about the experience they have with  thousands and thousands of frogs, but have really only owned frogs for  about 3 years and have only been on anyone's radar for about the last  year.  It's now clear that from early on their goal was to create  "Designer Frogs", a derogatory term they've adopted and rebranded from  the hobby, from the very start.  Many hobbyists became suspicious of  this early on when it seemed that the website (whatever it was called  back then, they've gone through some name changes) seemed to focus a lot  of webspace on the argument that there was no difference between the  regional varieties of dart frogs and that because these regional  crossbreeds can occur, then they must occur in the wild.  They quoted  respected scientific sources selectively and out of context to make this  argument, completely ignoring the natural barriers that create and  maintain these regional varieties in the wild.  They even claimed that  they had completely mapped the dart frog phenotype and could create  through crossbreeding frogs that weren't just indistinguishable from  other varieties (perhaps some that weren't even in the hobby), but  actually WERE those varieties.  The "science" they used to back those  claims was ridiculous even from a novices point of view.
> 
> Obviously  they had seen the popularity of crossbred stock with other animals and  saw it as an unexploited niche in the hobby and assumed that it would be  wildly popular.  As you're probably learning now the great majority of  the dart frog community puts much more value on traceable natural  lines.  It probably has to do with the conservation-minded people that  the hobby appeals to.  It's not really conservation by any means, but  most hobbyists would like to preserve the frogs natural state, as many  may be gone/unavailable in our lifetimes.  Right or wrong, that is what  the hobby seems to value.  Initially Designerfrogs prices were on par  with the rest of the hobby, and their "hybrids" were about 3-4 times  that cost.  Eventually they had to lower their prices well below the  hobby to make any sales, including their "hybrids".  Now they have a  problem.  They are seen as a pariah by the legitimate hobby and they  claim to have 7000+ frogs that the hobby wont touch, so they've focused  their sales on wholesaling to pet stores, that really only care about  cost, and the new and uniformed.  The way they've targeted the uniformed  is by claiming/implying that many of the "innovations" that have been  common practice for years in the hobby were, not only their invention,  but that they're the only ones who offer such a service, for instance:
> 
> 1)They've  trademarked the name "SAFE" and use it interchangeably with  "non-poisonous", and they strongly imply that other breeders are selling  dangerously poison frogs.  Wild frogs are poison because of their  "wild" diet.  Some wild caught frogs retain some toxicity for a while,  but the vast majority of frogs available are captive bred and any frog  on a captive diet cannot sequester enough alkaloids to create  appreciable toxins.  By that measure, almost all dart frogs are safe.  
> 
> 2)They  muddy the language in any conversation about pathogens.  They will  claim that their collection is pathogen/chytrid/parasite free because  they are trademarked SAFE (wait, didn't that mean non toxic?).  When  asked if they do any testing they say they don't have to because their  animals are guaranteed 100% healthy.  No testing + rampant  crossbreeding, thus encouraging novel pathogens = 100% healthy.
> ...


Is the how you PM

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## TAPDart91

Somebody care to explain how you PM on this websight when i go to messages it says error connecting to server

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## Boondoggle

Left click the name of the person you want to PM from their forum post.  Private Message is one of the options.

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## derezzed

Just checking back in on this thread and I noticed that this company has now changed their name (again). Wonder if it had anything to do with the bad publicity they've been getting lately.

They are now known as "USAfrog" instead of "designerfrog" or whatever it was.

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## Carisab

Good luck. I just started this hobby and I find there is sometimes so much info it's hard to know what is true and what is not.

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## bill

> Good luck. I just started this hobby and I find there is sometimes so much info it's hard to know what is true and what is not.


It is confusing. There is so much conflicting info out there. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Paul

I don't know that they are changing their name as much as they are registering several domain names and pointing them all to the same site. I can respect people trying to start a business, but sometimes there are shining examples of what not to do.

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## Happy Frog

> Well im wanting to get a sexed pair or proven pair of Azureus without paying the almost $300 which is why I was attracted to DF. I live in Washington state and there isnt very many shows around here or reptile shops. I mean I want to get good frogs but I kinda have a budget as well.



Do the hobby a favor and stay away from these people.  They blatantly admit to creating hybrids.  

You say you are in WA state.  Over on DB there is a experienced dart frogger named thedude who lives in WA.  Sign up on there and send him a PM and ask him to give you some names of people in your state that raise and breed Azureus.  There are a huge amount of dart frog breeders in your state.  I'm sure he can give you the names of some reputable people.  Unfortunately, I believe he only raises mostly thumbs, Pumilios and Variabilis.

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## Lynn

Great !...... I get to be the "bad guy "
These can be valuable threads.
However, this is a difficult thread to moderate and maintain because of its nature to become _de-railed_.
We are all passionate about this topic and have information and opinions based on what we feel, hear, read and have experienced personally. 

I understand this thread started over a week ago.
I believe I replied with in it myself (#12) .
I understand that Clayton asked a simple question. 

Please remain objective.  
Please...Lets keep any _factual criticisms_ where they are suppose to be of which is in the "Testimonials" area  > based on personal experience  , good, bad or otherwise. 

Opinions....need to be stated as such. As mentioned, please use a PM

Thanks 
 :Butterfly:

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## Judy S

there is a reason...and more information that you can read about in one sitting about this "business"---go to Dendroboard or Dart Den and read all about this company.  They are appealing to the novice keeper and have questionable practices...

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## TAPDart91

No good no good

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## in2Diy

> I drifted over from another forum but wanted to chime in.  I can feel your frustration.  
> 
> Just  a bit of history...Designer frogs was started not very long ago as a  family operation.  They often brag about the experience they have with  thousands and thousands of frogs, but have really only owned frogs for  about 3 years and have only been on anyone's radar for about the last  year.  It's now clear that from early on their goal was to create  "Designer Frogs", a derogatory term they've adopted and rebranded from  the hobby, from the very start.  Many hobbyists became suspicious of  this early on when it seemed that the website (whatever it was called  back then, they've gone through some name changes) seemed to focus a lot  of webspace on the argument that there was no difference between the  regional varieties of dart frogs and that because these regional  crossbreeds can occur, then they must occur in the wild.  They quoted  respected scientific sources selectively and out of context to make this  argument, completely ignoring the natural barriers that create and  maintain these regional varieties in the wild.  They even claimed that  they had completely mapped the dart frog phenotype and could create  through crossbreeding frogs that weren't just indistinguishable from  other varieties (perhaps some that weren't even in the hobby), but  actually WERE those varieties.  The "science" they used to back those  claims was ridiculous even from a novices point of view.
> 
> Obviously  they had seen the popularity of crossbred stock with other animals and  saw it as an unexploited niche in the hobby and assumed that it would be  wildly popular.  As you're probably learning now the great majority of  the dart frog community puts much more value on traceable natural  lines.  It probably has to do with the conservation-minded people that  the hobby appeals to.  It's not really conservation by any means, but  most hobbyists would like to preserve the frogs natural state, as many  may be gone/unavailable in our lifetimes.  Right or wrong, that is what  the hobby seems to value.  Initially Designerfrogs prices were on par  with the rest of the hobby, and their "hybrids" were about 3-4 times  that cost.  Eventually they had to lower their prices well below the  hobby to make any sales, including their "hybrids".  Now they have a  problem.  They are seen as a pariah by the legitimate hobby and they  claim to have 7000+ frogs that the hobby wont touch, so they've focused  their sales on wholesaling to pet stores, that really only care about  cost, and the new and uniformed.  The way they've targeted the uniformed  is by claiming/implying that many of the "innovations" that have been  common practice for years in the hobby were, not only their invention,  but that they're the only ones who offer such a service, for instance:
> 
> 1)They've  trademarked the name "SAFE" and use it interchangeably with  "non-poisonous", and they strongly imply that other breeders are selling  dangerously poison frogs.  Wild frogs are poison because of their  "wild" diet.  Some wild caught frogs retain some toxicity for a while,  but the vast majority of frogs available are captive bred and any frog  on a captive diet cannot sequester enough alkaloids to create  appreciable toxins.  By that measure, almost all dart frogs are safe.  
> 
> 2)They  muddy the language in any conversation about pathogens.  They will  claim that their collection is pathogen/chytrid/parasite free because  they are trademarked SAFE (wait, didn't that mean non toxic?).  When  asked if they do any testing they say they don't have to because their  animals are guaranteed 100% healthy.  No testing + rampant  crossbreeding, thus encouraging novel pathogens = 100% healthy.
> ...


Agree 100% With your post I'm surprised it took so long for someone to put all this together in one post. I appreciate you doing so and it is because of people like you willing to speak out that I turned away from any of their frogs services or products.

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## FwoGiZ

I haven't read this whole thread as it is quite irrelevant for me to do so, but I've been in the frog hobby for over 2 decades, and been in the vivarium hobby for 8-9years now, and lemme tell you that this company is VERY VERY bad for the frog hobby and ultimately the environment.
Unless you guys want all frogs to look alike (bastardized, hybridized, mutts) and end up like the snake hobby, well we want to do everything we can to keep the lines pure because as it is, it's already pretty tough to know what frog is what.  A frog morph can very well be living in that only one valley... now we gonna mix it? Bad idea if we ever consider conservation effort at some point.

They will tell you that hybridizing makes stronger, healthy frog and they are partly right! Just like a mutt!  But the all around cons far outweight the pros of having a healthy frog in your tank because let's just face it... Josh, LLC, Mike Novy and a TON of other breeders ARE BREEDING HEALTHY FROGS TOO !!! without playing "God"... 

I am against censoring and flaming companies for opinions but those are facts. Stay away from them kids  :Wink:

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## bill

I am locking this thread for no other reason that everything has been pretty much said. No reason to keep beating a dead horse. The info provided can still be seen. Thank you everyone for your valued input on the subject.  :Smile: 



Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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