# Frogs & Toads > Budgett's Frogs >  Estivation Crisis....Please advise

## Sandy Bear

Ok, so I don't think my Budgetts Frog is going to make it.  She looks quite poorly to me, and I don't know if I should euthanize her or if this is "normal" and just wait and see.

I wasn't planning on estivating her until next year, but my Bridget had other plans and put them into action this week.  She is my first Budgets Frog, so I'm not very familiar with what to look for in regards to estivating.

But this week, she started to shed a lot, and now, she looks pretty much in full on estivation mode.  Her eyes and face are covered by some shed, she has bits of shed all over her body, and she is very dozy and uncoordinated when she is disturbed.

She hasn't eaten in a while, so I'm not worried about food rotting in her gut if she can actually successfully estivate.
She's lost a bit of weight this fall, and that was my fault as I was toying with the idea of estivating her so I would stop feeding her for two weeks, but then would get cold feet about it, and start feeding her again.  I did that a few times, before I decided to wait until next year.  I've read a few posts about Budgetts frogs dying during estivation, and it got me scared.  Under normal circumstances, it's enough of a weight loss to affect her, but because she is going to be estivating, I'm concerned that it will.  

Her tummy is also pinkish in color instead of the more whitish color that is normally is.  I did the Lamisil treatment on all my frogs last year, and my Whites Tree Frogs tummies turned a pinkish color after they finished their baths for a little while afterwards.  Anyways, it's a similar color pink.

Bridget lives in about 10 gallons of water, she has the bigger half of an Exoterra 36x18x18 terrarium.  She has 1 fake plant and a fake rock hide for decoration.  There is also an internal filter in the tank and a T8 strip light on top.
Her diet consists mainly of CB insects, plus Canadian or European Nightcrawlers.  She also ate a live mouse once.  The pet shop fed her crickets and mollies/guppies.
The temperature in my apartment is usually around 24-26C, but she has been exposed to anything around 22-32C
I've owned Bridgett for about 1-1/2 years, and she is about 2-1/2 years old.  I bought her from the pet shop in town

I have a 10 gallon tub that is filled about 2/3 of the way with 6 bricks of coco-fiber and a shallow water dish on top.  I put her in that, but she doesn't look like she wants to dig down.  I know I waited to long to put her down for the winter, but I'm not sure if I should help her out a little and dig her down part of the way and have her partially covered?  I'm just worried that she will dry out if she doesn't start to dig down.


Bridget's been doing this for the last two days.  She has just a bit of her head above water, and supports herself by holding on to the filter or the hide.  She does go completely submerged every once in a while for a time.  


This is the shed skin that sloughed off this week


This is the tub I set up for her


This is Bridget just before going into her tub


Sorry for the long post, I'm just concerned about her, and if she is poorly, I don't want her to suffer. 
If anyone has any advice on estivating Budgett's frogs, I would appreciate hearing about it.  

Thanks
-Sandy

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## Don

Although I don't have experience with this frog, I found this information from the link provided below.
Quote""Remove the Budgett's frog from his water home and place him in the dry aestivation tank. He will instinctively start to burrow down to the bottom of the container, and his skin will shed and form a protective cocoon encasing his body. Aestivation will last for a couple of months, and can last as long as 9 months.  ""End Quote

Hope someone with experience in this will reply.

Link to information I found on web: Budgett's Frog (Lepidobatrachus laevis) - talk to the frog

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## Colleen/Jerrod

I'm no expert and have no experiance with Budgetts or estivation, but I do know that they are supposed to be pretty fat before putting down for hibernation. At this point she is probably to far underweight to do so. It may be possible to revive her from this state. I'm not too sure how when its not under normal hibernation conditions. Are theiir any Herp vets near you? Hopefully someone can help you through this and save her. I also hope that Don's link helps.

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## Sandy Bear

I would like to revive her out of this actually if I can, I'm just not sure on how to do that.

The care sheet that Don posted is mine.  I wrote that the week I bought Bridgett.  I was not impressed that there wasn't a good care sheet out there on them, and I went though every bit of information I could find on them to make that care sheet up.  Unfortunately there isn't a lot of information out there on them, so it's hard to know what is right to do.  

I know how to estivate them, I just don't think she is fit to do it, as this is the first time with her.  I'm stressed out about it, because she looks like she is going to die on me.  
My BF wants be to put her back in her tank, or at least in water.  I think I will do that.  
I may even give her a honey bath to see if that helps.

I have a vet that will see me, and get me what ever I need in order to help my frogs, but the problem is, that they are not experienced with frogs.  So if I don't know how to fix this, chances are they won't know either.  They are a "farm vet" type facility, they mostly see cows, sheep, horses, elk, etc... They have recently started to get into other types of animals, domestic pets like dogs and cats, reptiles, etc....  As far as I know, I'm their only "frog" client.  I got them a copy of the Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry book, so that will help them some.  I have a copy of "Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry" (veterinary text).  I'm going to be doing some reading tonight.

We have another vet in town that supposed to be an "exotics" vet.  I've been there twice a few years ago, and I won't go back there if I can help it.  To be perfectly honest, I would rather cut my arm off then have to see that vet ever again.  From what I can tell, she is not actually qualified to see reptiles and amphibians, I think she is more small animals like rodents, rabbits, etc...

I'm not confident that she will survive long unfortunately, that's why I think it might be kinder to euthanize her, unless someone else has some suggestions.

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## Sandy Bear

The honey bath seems to be helping loads.  Her eyes are open and clear, she is more alert, and is getting quite defensive when I touch her.  Her tummy is still pink.
I mixed the honey in warm water.  This was my first time using it.  I only just found out about the honey from the first aid page on this site.  

Bridgett weights 78 grams.  I'm not sure what they are supposed to weight, but in case anyone is wondering.  She is about 4.5" SVL

I'm going to sanitize her tank later, and I will be giving more honey baths.

Should I try to get her to eat?  Maybe tomorrow.
I can't see her wanting to eat now, she doesn’t like to be bothered much before she gets fed.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

I would let her rest and feed her tomorrow. If she won't feed on her own I would try to force feed. Watch your fingers ;P. I hope the honey brings her out of it. You could also try the pedialite bath. Don knows the mixture ratio. I believe its 10 to 1. With unflavored formula.

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## Sandy Bear

I have used the pedialyte baths before, 1:10 sounds right to me.  I also have the exoterra stuff on hand.  
I am quite impressed with the honey though.  I'm not sure if it was that, or the warm water, but she looks better.  I'm going to check though my old aquarium supplies later and see if I still have my small submersible heaters.  If not, I will check the pet shops, probably tomorrow.  I think I'm going to keep her tank warmer.
I'm not happy about the tummy color.  I will see if the Baytril I have on hand is still good, and will give her some of that if I can in Bath form.  But I'm going to wait and see what she looks like tomorrow and maybe the next day before I give her anything like that.

I feel more optimistic about her being ok now, but I'm still apprehensive about it, as I've had some frogs in the past get ill on me, and I though that they were starting to turn around and get better, but then ended up dying when I got up the next day.  So, fingers crossed that she makes it though the night

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## Don

Use unflavored pedialite. Stay away from the flavored stuff, no telling what that has in it. Unflavored pedialite looks like water and has barely any taste. Drop this in warm water (mid-70s or room temp) at a 10/1 ratio (10 water, 1 pedialite, so like...10 ounces of water, one ounce of pedialite) and mix it in, then give the frog a bath for 10-20 minutes to let it soak in the nutrients.

This will at least get some nutrients into her.  

I would feed her something easy to get down too like earthworms.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I have used the pedialyte baths before, 1:10 sounds right to me.  I also have the exoterra stuff on hand.  
> I am quite impressed with the honey though.  I'm not sure if it was that, or the warm water, but she looks better.  I'm going to check though my old aquarium supplies later and see if I still have my small submersible heaters.  If not, I will check the pet shops, probably tomorrow.  I think I'm going to keep her tank warmer.
> I'm not happy about the tummy color.  I will see if the Baytril I have on hand is still good, and will give her some of that if I can in Bath form.  But I'm going to wait and see what she looks like tomorrow and maybe the next day before I give her anything like that.
> 
> I feel more optimistic about her being ok now, but I'm still apprehensive about it, as I've had some frogs in the past get ill on me, and I though that they were starting to turn around and get better, but then ended up dying when I got up the next day.  So, fingers crossed that she makes it though the night


I hope she recovers. The honey baths do perk them up. They are also good for helping them poop. Its a natural source of sugar and antihystamines.gives them a boost. Ill have you and your frog in my thoughts.  :Smile:

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## Sandy Bear

Well, she's still alive  :Smile:

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## Colleen/Jerrod

So glad to hear that! I hope she continues to get better and makes a full recovery. Keep us posted on her!

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## Sandy Bear

Well, Bridget is still alive, and just as stubborn as ever... she WILL NOT open her mouth.  She even puts her chin down and front arms straight out to make it harder.  I managed to get her mouth open about 3 times, got bit all 3 times, and was able to get the bug in her mouth once.  She kept the bug in her mouth for 2 minutes, then spit it out on me.  I've been fighting with her for 20 minutes, and I gave up, because I don't want to stress her out more.  
I'm using a plastic gift card to try and get her mouth open.  She is seriously being stubborn with this, I'm afraid if I push harder on the card I will cut up her mouth.  
I have her in a quarantine tub at the moment.  She really does not like being out of her cage.  I know that she will eat better for me if I put her back in there.  I had this issue with her when she was doing the Lamisil treatment last summer.

The up side, her tummy isn't so pink today.  It's still not the right color, but that at least it is improving.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Well, Bridget is still alive, and just as stubborn as ever... she WILL NOT open her mouth.  She even puts her chin down and front arms straight out to make it harder.  I managed to get her mouth open about 3 times, got bit all 3 times, and was able to get the bug in her mouth once.  She kept the bug in her mouth for 2 minutes, then spit it out on me.  I've been fighting with her for 20 minutes, and I gave up, because I don't want to stress her out more.  
> I'm using a plastic gift card to try and get her mouth open.  She is seriously being stubborn with this, I'm afraid if I push harder on the card I will cut up her mouth.  
> I have her in a quarantine tub at the moment.  She really does not like being out of her cage.  I know that she will eat better for me if I put her back in there.  I had this issue with her when she was doing the Lamisil treatment last summer.
> 
> The up side, her tummy isn't so pink today.  It's still not the right color, but that at least it is improving.


I really hope she pulls through. :Smile:

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## Sandy Bear

:Frown:   I found her dead this morning.  Her eyes are all glazed over and she's in rigor.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I found her dead this morning.  Her eyes are all glazed over and she's in rigor.


 :Frown:  I'm so sorry Sandy. I wish there were more that could have been done. You did what you could. Hopefully she passed easily and comfertably. It saddens me so much when people lose their loved ones. She's at peace now.

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## aceras624

Im sorry Bridget passed. Id be upset if my budget frog (Rupert) had a problem. condolences aside, i wanted to offer my opinion as ive had quite a bit of good luck with Rupert and feel I may have come accross some helpful info in case you try another budget frog. After skimming through the processes' you went through im happy to LEARN that some honey or pedialite might get me out of froggie trouble in the future. Also, i feel that you should have skipped the estetation process sooner and maintained warmer water. I use an inline heater($50) with an external pump($30) that takes water from the bottom of the tank and goes through some filter floss and then back into the tank as a waterfall. this keeps my water nice and clean which allows me to feed goldfish. I know what youre thinking, "GOLFISH BAAAD" but Im very careful with them. they get acclimated properly and NONE of the water is tranfered into the tank AND I gut load them with high quality pellet food. my biggest problem tends to be that my water is too clear for Rupert to catch a fish in the daytime. I feel it was a mistake on your part to attempt to force feed Bridget.  that would just be sooo stressful. I guess the best thing i think you could have done would be to maintain healthy water through water changes, keep the water warm with an inline heater(or protected submersible heater) so the frog never hibernates, and leave them with plenty of tasty gutloaded fish and bugs (i prefer crickets). Im sorry i wasnt able to help with this advice sooner. Im also sorry for this haphazard comment(im sure its kindof all over the place) I just joined and am looking forward to reading some nice frog stories and seeing some cool pics. Im currently renovating my 30 gallon so maybe ill have pics soon too  :Smile:  best wishes
Ace

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## Sandy Bear

Hi Ace!  Thank you for commenting.

I do plan on getting another Budgett's frog in the future, or a few of them.   Next time I do, I plan on having a Canister Filter attached to the tank.  I will get the tank drilled to accommodate a Fluval 105 or 205, or if the new '06 model is out, then one of those.  These filters cost around $100-150.  There is a plumbing specialty shop that has sells all the extra bits and pieces to do this, which will be an extra $40-60.  Believe me, "next time" the tank will be set up better.

I have never seen or heard of an in-line heater before.  So I looked it up.  They look very interesting, and I will inquire at the pet shop if they can get those in.  The model I checked out was by Hydor, and I think I've seen a few Hydor products at the pet shop.  

I am not in the habit of force feeding any of my frogs, but I felt that she was emaciated and needed to eat something.  It's been my understanding that the only time force feeding is acceptable is when it is a "last ditch effort" in order to save the frogs life.  
I should have just put her back in her tank and tried to have fed her that way, it may have gone better, but you know what they say, hind-sight is 20/20 .

I try to only feed feeders that I breed at home.  I bought a frog a couple of years ago and she was badly sick with parasites, she is all better now, but I worry that they can get sick from contaminated food sources, and I feel more comfortable knowing where their food is coming from and what their food has been eating.  I do still buy crickets as I have a few fussy animals that won't eat anything but crickets.  This fall I started a colony of "pill bugs".  I think I managed to find about 8 bugs all together, but I have a bunch of tiny little babies running around their bin.  It will probably be two years before I have a large enough colony though to start feeding them out.  

I am re-doing Bridget's tank for my Leopard Frogs.  I got some "frog-poles" from one of the pet shops in town this summer, they came in with their goldfish order.  

I am interested to know about your Rupert.  Is he full size?  Is he sexed?  And what is his weight?  It is always wonderful to hear "nice" frog stories, as there are so many sad ones.  You should take some progress pictures of your tank and post those.  I always like posts like that, the ones that teach you new building techniques.

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## aceras624

sooo I happen to have an extra Eheim 2217 classic if youd like it. Its just been sitting here. I own an aquarium service company so I often find myself with extra "things". Eheim is a much better quality product than fluval(no affense if youre partial  :Wink:  I was keeping it, waiting for a clients filter to break down but they never do! I guess thats a good thing but let me know if youd like it. 
 As for drilling, I usually drill my own holes with a Dremel and diamond bit and a nice flow of cool water in the bath tub. I drill a bunch of holes after marking the size for the appropriate bulkhead and when the center falls out, i grind the circle smooth with a stone sanding bit. I find it fun, but LOUD, so earplugs may be needed  :Smile: 
  The heaterI have is a hydor. I got it from foster and smith for 50 bucks. it works great so far so id recomend them(especially since noone else makes them yet  :Wink: 
I love the idea of breeding food animals at home but its just too much for me. I have 2 reef aquariums and Ruperts tank.
As for Rupert, Im still somewhat new with him. I used to have maybe 10 different arrow frogs back in the day and couldnt help but take Rupert home when I saw his pathetic little legs sticking out of what seemed to be just a mouth! these things are so cool!! Ive always been pretty good with animals and seem to be doing well with him so far. I dont know how to sex him but i guess Ill study a bit to find out how  :Smile:  Ill have to take some pictures. Ive hit such a road block as to what to do with his tank. being in the aquarium industry and being very handy. i can do just about ANYTHING to it so the possibilities are endless, which is why i have the problem to begin with! Im working on how to make a stoney backround with real stone. ill need to figure out if limestone will make the water too acidic. maybe i should take a pic of this drawing i just drew up and see some opinions. hmmm

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## aceras624

btw hes just about 100 grams  hes a pretty fat little froggle  :Smile:

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## Sandy Bear

At the moment, I am partial to the Fluval Filters.  We have two of the 405 models, a 105 and an FX5.  The FX5 is on our South American Cichlid/Arowana tank and one of the 405's is on my work tank.  The other 405 is not being used at the moment, and the 105 is for my dart frog tank (D.auratus) that is sitting in pieces waiting to be assembled.  Our local pet shop doesn't carry Eheim products for whatever reason, but it's something that I would look into getting some day when our Fluvals die on us.  

You should do something with that extra filter!  Get some of those Suriname Toads, "Pipa pipa".  They are an aquatic frog, and very unusual looking, they are flat, have long fingers and have a prominent "T" mark across their chest.  They basically look like they have been run over and had an autopsy done and the coroner stitched them back up.  Very neat aquatic frog, I would love to have some of those in my collection one day.  

When I do go about drilling the tanks, the first one I am going to get done at a glass cutter in town.  They charge around $12 a 1" hole, but it depends on the size.  I checked out some drill bits at our local Home Depot, and they had one or two diamond drill bits (larger ones anyways), and I think that they started at $50 each for about a 1" size.  
I'm not exactly sure what size I need, so that's why I'm going to get it done there for at least the first one.

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## aceras624

as for the pipa pipas, WEIRD! hahaha... most LPS's dont carry Eheim. Theyre a high end brand that doesnt sell too well in america except amongst more serious aquarists(hope that doesnt somehow sound condescending  :Smile: 
thats a great price for drilling holes. Id probably use the guy if he was local to me!  :Smile:  they charge like $50- $75 here! for the size, just measure the outside diameter of the bulkhead/s you plan on using for the pipe size. most of them also come with a sticker that has the dimensions on them. these are the ones I use
Slip Bulkhead Fitting Kits

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## Sandy Bear

If you are interested in breeding feeders at home, but aren't able to "baby sit" them because you are busy, there are other feeders out there that require little care/effort.

Vermicomposting worms, such as Red Wrigglers (small worm) and European Nightcrawlers (medium worm) are great choices.  I feed these to my frogs and my cichlids and they love them.  I keep them indoors at room temperature in Rubbermaid tubs.  They are fed paper/cardboard and table scraps (like bread, veggies, fruits, used coffee grounds/tea bags, etc...).  I feed them maybe once every two weeks, and I change out their bins maybe every 6 months or when it is getting full.  
The other up side to them is that they make the BEST all natural fertilizer and you are doing something good for the environment.  You can also make some money off of the castings.  The red wrigglers breed pretty fast too, they will double their population every 90 days.  I'm not sure how fast the European Nightcrawlers breed, I've only had them for a couple of months.  

My pill bugs are doing well too, I only feed them fish flake food and rotting lettuce, and I make sure that their substrate stays wet.  My colony is starting to take off, I noticed a new batch of babies last night.  I probably only check on these guys once every 2-3 weeks.  I'm keeping them in a sterelite shoe box at the moment, but I think I might get them a bigger tub eventually.  

Mealworms are also really easy to breed, not my favorite feeder but they're good to have as a back up.  I think I neglected my colony for almost a year, and there was still lots of mealies alive.  I am taking better care of them now, but they are tough little guys.  

Roaches are also great feeders.  They like heat and you have to make sure that they don't run out of food or water as some species will cannibalize each other or their young.  A cat/small dog gravity fed feeder filled with water gel crystals and one filled with food like cat/dog food, dry cereal, chick egg laying mash, etc..., would be a good way of making sure that they don't run out of food.
Dubia is a good starter roach and comes highly recommended by many keepers.  They are very nutritious, they don't bite, they don't smell, they don't climb glass/smooth plastic, they don't make noise, they also don't run fast like pest roaches do.  Females give birth to 20-30 nymphs every month.  Tubs should be cleaned out once every 6 months or so.

Cardboard egg carton is a must have when breeding feeders.  You can buy the large flats on line, but you can also get these from restaurants.  Anywhere that serves breakfast or bakeries will have tones of these, and will probably appreciate people taking them off of their hands, that way they do not take up space in their dumpster.

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Mentat

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## aceras624

wow! good read! im kindof excited about how easy it seems to be to make feeder animals! hmmmm now to convince my better half to let me keep some creepy crawleys in a box INSIDE  :Wink:  any advice on THAT!? hahaha

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## Sandy Bear

Well, start with one thing at at time.  Invest in the vermicomposting worms, since you have a Budgett's Frog, I'd go with the European Nightcrawlers (they don't get as big as the Canadian Nightcrawlers do).  Good points about them:

+ No Smell ...........(unless you feed them wrong)

+ They will self regulate - meaning the worms won't become so overpopulated in their bin that they start crawling out - if they do crawl out there is a problem with their bedding/food

+ Doing something good for the environment......you will dispose of a lot of house hold waste, or "reducing your carbon foot print" I think that is how the saying goes anyways.

+ 1 pound of worms can eat 1/2 a pound of properly prepared food every day

+ Safer at disposing documents then just shredding the paper!  I have a friend in my building that brings me all her shredded bills and personal documents (shredded).  I feed that to my worms.  She worries about "sketchy" tenants in our building, as she's caught one of them searching though the garbage bags in the garbage shed.

+ The worm castings are fabulous, your plants will grow 3 times better in worm castings then they will with any other kind of dirt or fertilizer, plus it's "organic"

+ The European Nightcrawlers are a very "up and coming" bait fishing worm, and will out last any Canadian Nightcrawler in summer time fishing, also can be used for ice fishing, and brackish water fishing.  Extras can be sold to fishermen.  

+ Lots of people are doing it now!  haha, always the best excuse :P And a lot of people are actually keeping their bins in the kitchen, like the pantry floor or under the sink for convenience.  Other people keep then in the basement or on the porch.  

This is my care sheet I wrote on them:
Vermicomposting - Red Wriggler Care Sheet - talk to the frog

I have 4 worm bins set up in my apartment, and I have given starter colonies to a lot of people that I know (all girls) and they just love them.  Some are keeping them for food for their animals, others are keeping them for the composting side.

You can check your area for Gardening clubs that promote Vermicomposting.  I bought one of my starter colonies of Red Wrigglers from one of these places.  Some of them give starter colonies away for free, others you will have to pay for, usually by the pound.
If you are Canadian, you can purchase your worms both the European Nightcrawlers and Red Wrigglers from Cathy from Cathy's Crawlie Composters.  I bought 1 pound of European Nightcrawlers from her for about $110 Shipped.  She is a fantastic lady, and very passionate about worm composting:
Cathy's Crawly Composters - Products
Videos:
Cathy's Crawly Composters - Video - Town and Country Ontario
Cathy's Crawly Composters - Video - Town and Country Ontario

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Mentat

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## Carlos

> I found her dead this morning.  Her eyes are all glazed over and she's in rigor.


I'm sorry for your frogs death Sandy!  Also, thank you for the information on worm raising.  Think will try that at home due to high local cost for them (around $3 for dozen Canadian night crawlers).

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