# General Topics > Vivarium, Terrarium & Enclosure Discussion >  RETF vivarium needs plant ideas!

## Lisa

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## Lisa

Hey guys, I'm new to building a living vivarium. So naturally I'm seeking ideas for plants for our RETF habitat build. We have an  18 x 18 x 24 exo terra tank. I already know about pothos. I am also looking for suggestions on where to purchase them from for a good price! I am also taking suggestions for substrate/floor filtration etc! Any and all suggestions welcome. Thanks in advance for any advice you want to share!

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## bill

pothos is a very common houseplant that you can get almost anywhere that has a garden dept. walmart, Home depot, lowes, ect. they all sell quite a few plants you can use, such as ficus pumila (creeping fig), hoya, diffenbachia, numerous ferns, dracenas and a few others. Ebay is also another good source, if you know what species you are looking for. also, garden centers or plant shops that have terrarium depts. are a gold mine for vivariums. terrarium depts specialize in miniature sized plants. as far as online goes, here are a few links for you, some places i have ordered from in the past, some i have not:
Welcome to Black Jungle Terrarium Supply - The Natural Choice!
Buy Rare and Exotic Tropical Plants Online|Begonias|Episcias|Peperomias|Gesneriads
Tropicals &ndash; Jungle Box
Plants for Terrariums and Wardian Cases
Teresa&#39;s Plants & More Store
last, but not least, my favorite orchid guy  :Smile: 
Andy's Orchids - Orchid Species - Orchid list of miniature orchid plants

that should get you started on plants. as far as the actual build. i highly suggest reading over some of the build journals on here. get some ideas and then go from there. there are so many variables, that it is hard to make recommendations until you have a design and somewhat of a game plan. most important is research. read as much as you can about retf's and their natural habitat, look at pics, ect. first, it will give you much useful knowledge about the frogs and what kind of environment that will make them happy. second, you'll have something pop into your head as far as design goes. keep us posted  :Smile:

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tinkgirl77

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## Lisa

Thanks so much again, you're again, an awesome help!

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## Lisa

Bill, You seem to know your stuff on plants... any specific plants that you would consider easier/beginners? I love the orchids and bursts of color but My full size orchids have not been doing so hot lol.

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## bill

pothos are easy. almost impossible to kill. almost. ferns are pretty much autopilot plants. just remember that most ferns WILL grow huge if you don't keep them under control. i have a soft spot for prayer plants. i forget the species name, but a prayer plant was the first plant my mom gave me to grow when i was but a wee lad. diffenbachia as well. diff's will also grow huge, so trimming will eventually be required. these are all easily purchased at big box stores. depending on your locale, some places still have some nice plants in their garden centers, even at this time of year. 

you can also use some bonsai plants. however, do research on these first. very important because some bonsai plants are of the pine family and they would only rot and die in a humid environment. i also believe pine is toxic to some frogs? but there are bonsai plants like ficus benjamina (which grow to 100+ feet in the rainforest) that can be trained to stay within the confines of a vivarium.

remember that orchids are cyclic plants. they bloom in cycles.  they flower, then go dormant for a bit, then bloom again. my guess is you are growing phaelenopsis orchids and they are at the end of their bloom. just be patient, water it once a week and it will bloom again  :Smile:

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## Heather

Bill is your man for the plants. Donlisk too. 

Pothos are easy and do not require much light. Even I don't kill them, which says a lot, lol! No green thumb here  :Stick Out Tongue: . 

Bill? What are these?

I've used them before. They seem to like the moisture and have nice heavy, broad leaves. 

I also use dracaena and snake plants. I keep the snake plants in the areas that drain well. Broms are nice too. 

I have some nice plants waiting patiently for their big tank  :Smile: .

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deranged chipmunk

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## bill

Heather, that looks like a Aglaonema Commutatum. i am probably wrong....lol it also looks a bit like some species of spathipyhyllum. i think someone posted a thread about that same plant a week or so ago. they said they id'd it, but never said what it is.

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## bill

oh yeah, i forgot, and thanks Heather for adding it. Broms are great starters. easy to grow, but slow growers. and then there are tillandsia (air plants). for the life of me, i cannot grow those stupid things. personally, i think broms and tilly's are used way too much. but they do look nice  :Smile:

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## Lisa

Awesome!  I think I'm going to drag the hubby to Lowe's to get some stuff to start making a false bottom and get some starter plants too!  I'm so freaking excited, I don't think my hubby had any idea how much I was going to get into this!  Ok Heather, Lynne, Bill... from the bottom of the vivarium to the top layer... using a false bottom (probably eggcrate) what do you use or you recommend?

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## bill

first, i recommend you get wider pvc pipe than you would think you need for your support struts under the egg crate. so that gives us now the egg crate false bottom. is this tank going to have a water feature? how far from the false bottom is the water going to be? the reason i ask is the "wicking factor". if your water level is too close to the egg crate, it will wick up moisture from below and you will have a bog, instead of a well drained tank. a few ways to combat that are to keep the water level at least an inch below the egg crate, or add hydroton (clay pellets) as a drainage layer on top of the egg crate before adding soil. a lot of people will tell you that that is not necessary, but if you are keeping a close tolerance with water levels, then i think it is necessary to avoid having soggy substrate. remember, soggy substrates grow nasty bacteria, which could affect the health of the frogs. RETF's are sensitive enough without adding another complication.

as far as substrate materials goes, you have a whole lot of options there. your best bet is start building the false bottom. take one step at a time. don't rush anything. keep in mind, this is not an instant gratification hobby. i like to call building vivs "the long con".  :Smile:

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## Lisa

LOL Bill you are definetly right. I'm open to whatever... I'm working with an Exo Terra 18x18x24. .

I'm thinking of doing a little false bottom like this... but much, much simpler.

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## Lisa

The little open part I was going to fill with large river rock pebbles (larger than the little RETF can eat).  and put a filter in the corner.  The pond area would give me an area to siphon the water from when needed. Do you think I need a water feature? or should I just use the filter like an exo terra repti-clear to keep it clean?

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## bill

i'd stay away from a water feature on your first build. they can be major headaches. what kind of filter did you plan to put in the corner? you would have to lay the repticlear on it's side, otherwise, it stands 9" or so. here's the problem, only you know what you want your tank to look like, so until you have some sort of structure built, i can only give you general ideas. the easy way out would be to get one of those rock waterfalls that holds the filter in it and utilize it flowing into your pond area. don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with going the easy route on your first build.

did you read over my mantella tank build yet? i think alot of your questions may be answered in it. i wrote it as a step by step detailed tutorial. and it incorporates a lot of the features it sound like you are looking for. i normally don't direct people to my build threads, but i think in this case, it might be helpful  :Smile:

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## Lisa

Hey all what type of silicon is froggy 
safe if I want to make a rock lined pond?

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## Lisa

Bill, I'm not sure, how do I find it? I was thinking of a very small filter ( smallest I can find) doesn't have to be repti clear. Or I'm contemplating skipping the filter and siphoning the pond often and using eggcrate with the hydrballs on top of it. What do you think?

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## bill

http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...aludarium.html

skipping the filter is an option, but remember that you'll have to change the water often. just take your time, plan everything out. draw it on paper if you need to. sometimes it's easier to wrap your head around the whole thing that way.

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## Lisa

Hey Bill, Heather or Lynn.  Are any little ferns ok? Or are there any ones that are toxic I should avoid? And y'all said for instance "begonias" does that mean all lil begonias in the terrarium section of Lee's are ok?

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## bill

I am not aware of any ferns that are toxic to frogs. Just remember that down the road, all ferns grow big. Expect it to die off the first few weeks, then you'll start to see new fronds appear. Most begonias will be fine. They tolerate humidity rather well. Some do get large, so research the species before you buy. Violets would also work, but they really don't like staying wet, so if you go with violets, they need to be in a dryer section of the enclosure, if there is one. Episcias (?) Are also good, as well as jewel orchids  :Smile:

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## arielgasca420

> pothos are easy. almost impossible to kill. almost. ferns are pretty much autopilot plants. just remember that most ferns WILL grow huge if you don't keep them under control. i have a soft spot for prayer plants. i forget the species name, but a prayer plant was the first plant my mom gave me to grow when i was but a wee lad. diffenbachia as well. diff's will also grow huge, so trimming will eventually be required. these are all easily purchased at big box stores. depending on your locale, some places still have some nice plants in their garden centers, even at this time of year. 
> 
> you can also use some bonsai plants. however, do research on these first. very important because some bonsai plants are of the pine family and they would only rot and die in a humid environment. i also believe pine is toxic to some frogs? but there are bonsai plants like ficus benjamina (which grow to 100+ feet in the rainforest) that can be trained to stay within the confines of a vivarium.
> 
> remember that orchids are cyclic plants. they bloom in cycles. they flower, then go dormant for a bit, then bloom again. my guess is you are growing phaelenopsis orchids and they are at the end of their bloom. just be patient, water it once a week and it will bloom again


Bill is totally spot on witht he plants and speaks my kind of language.
Maranta Leucoreua is the prayer plant. I may have mispelled it...They are awesome looking tropical plants and more vibrant than pothos. Be careful with Dieffenbachia. If you have sensitive skin like me then it is best to keep away. and by no means should you or any of your pets ever ingest this plant. There is a reason they call it the "Dumb Cane" 
The bonsai family is a tough one and requires experience and constant attention and the only problem I could see is that they put off phenols which can cause respiratory problems in animals. Bill is absolutely right about Ficus benjamina. There are a few other types of plants out there that can be bonsai(ed)?

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## arielgasca420

> Bill is your man for the plants. Donlisk too. 
> 
> Pothos are easy and do not require much light. Even I don't kill them, which says a lot, lol! No green thumb here . 
> 
> Bill? What are these?
> 
> I've used them before. They seem to like the moisture and have nice heavy, broad leaves. 
> 
> I also use dracaena and snake plants. I keep the snake plants in the areas that drain well. Broms are nice too. 
> ...


This first picture is so hard to tell. I dont think its Aglonema commutatum but there may be some soil deficiency going on that makes the marginal veins that white color. I think it looks more like a marbled Dieffenbachia just because of the leaf shape and size. These kind of plants ID questions are like a treasure hunt for me! keep them comming

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## arielgasca420

> oh yeah, i forgot, and thanks Heather for adding it. Broms are great starters. easy to grow, but slow growers. and then there are tillandsia (air plants). for the life of me, i cannot grow those stupid things. personally, i think broms and tilly's are used way too much. but they do look nice


I have a few Tillandsia that grow very slow but I found this Tillandsia bulbosa at my local nursery that looks so awesome. I put it on the base of the orchid pot and it looks like long aerial roots. you should check it out if you havent seen it yet

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## bill

> This first picture is so hard to tell. I dont think its Aglonema commutatum but there may be some soil deficiency going on that makes the marginal veins that white color. I think it looks more like a marbled Dieffenbachia just because of the leaf shape and size. These kind of plants ID questions are like a treasure hunt for me! keep them comming


see, i originally though Diff. sp., but the white stems are throwing me off. a majority of the diff. sp. have green stems. i also thought the leaves, while similar shape to a diff. are a bit shorter? that may just be a perception issue though due to it being a pic.

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## bill

> I have a few Tillandsia that grow very slow but I found this Tillandsia bulbosa at my local nursery that looks so awesome. I put it on the base of the orchid pot and it looks like long aerial roots. you should check it out if you havent seen it yet


i've seen the bulbosa. my plant shop has them on a regular basis. the source from RFI, so they carry quite a bit that you guys get out there. i just am not a big fan of them. as my mother, who has been a florist for 50 some years said to me, "you're the type of person who could grow an orchid in a dark, dry room, but give you a plant that needs little water and light and you kill it every time"....LOL

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## arielgasca420

> i've seen the bulbosa. my plant shop has them on a regular basis. the source from RFI, so they carry quite a bit that you guys get out there. i just am not a big fan of them. as my mother, who has been a florist for 50 some years said to me, "you're the type of person who could grow an orchid in a dark, dry room, but give you a plant that needs little water and light and you kill it every time"....LOL


haha thats funny. I was always digging through my moms dump pile to retrieve plants she gave up on. I would bring them back to life and sell them in the flower shop I worked at. 
i am still learning how to grow orchids right now without using fertilizer. send me a PM if you have any tips or suggestions

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## Brian

Lisa, the advice Bill and others have given you is spot on.  I would just like to add that, when you go plant shopping, resist the understandable temptation to be overly adventurous and purchase more than you need, because you have lot less space than you think.  Even though your tank isn't small (24x18x18 is roughly 34 gallons), by the time you have a false bottom/substrate layer, background, water feature, maybe a place for a feeding bowl and whatever decor you're going to have in there, the actual room available for the frogs to move and plants to grow is probably only half of that.  And grow they will.  Some of them like the aforementioned pothos can explode and block out the light in no time; others like the creeping fig like to extend themselves all over the place.  Even slow growing bromeliads will produce offshoots.  Not that that's a bad thing, but without ample space to expand, your vivarium quickly gets overcrowded and your plants will be forced to compete with each other for light and real estate.

The other thing, as Bill has already alluded to, is to prioritize your plant selection and vivarium design based on what your frogs need. Red eyes in the wild like to stay amongst the leaves and dense cover of the rain forest canopies, typically 100 feet above the ground.  They rarely venture down to the forest floor, so while having a few terrestrial ferns and shrubs at the bottom of the tank would make for nice decor, they serve little purpose as far as the inhabitants are concerned.  A lot of terrarium stores also tend to cater plant selections toward dart frogs, and these plants generally end up much too small and fragile and terrestrial for something the size of red eyed tree frogs - things like peperomias, pileas, etc.

Suitable choices, imo, would be broad leafed vining plants that will climb and fill up airspace all the way to the top of the enclosure.  Red eyes also prefer to climb from amongst the foliage rather than hop, and they oftentimes sleep on leaf faces so having leaves and stems that can support their weight is ideal.  Pothos and philodendron vareties would do nicely.  Hoyas also make good additions, but their leaves tend to be smaller.  Bromeliads are great because they don't require soil, allowing you to grow them anywhere in the vivarium.  They also collect water, which helps maintain humidity.  I generally avoid tillandsias because they tend to prefer lower humidity and greater airflow most of the other plants mentioned.  They rot quickly if allowed to contact standing water.  Orchids are also hit and miss - some can be really touchy...not to mention expensive.

I guess my suggestion here is to start simple: have a main course of a broad leafed vining plant like pothos and a couple of sides, with maybe a bromeliad or two up top.  Then, once the terrarium has had a month or two to grow in properly, you can decide to add more plants if there's room or reason to.  And stick to easy, "indestructible" plants.  If this is your first vivarium project, there are going to be enough stumbles and missteps that the last thing you want is to lose that rare orchid while figuring out what sized pvc pipe to use.  All this is from personal experience - I redid my first tank at least half a dozen times.  Plant casualties were high :Frown:

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deranged chipmunk, tinkgirl77

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## Lisa

Wow! Thank you so very very much! That was extremely helpful.

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## bill

Brian always picks up what i forget, and vice versa  :Smile:  he makes a couple excellent points. first is that the habitat for those guys is WAY up n the air, where only epiphytes survive. the only time they come down low is the rainy season to breed, but remember, the rainforest floor is normally flooded by as much as 30 feet, so they aren't going to ground level at all. a nice epiphytic fern is a resurrection fern. they actually grow nuts in Florida, so they aren't very difficult to get. broms are wonderful epiphytes, but not the ones from big box stores, some of them are actually terrestrial plants. instead, search the plant sites i gave you. neoregalia is a nice, small brom that will grow at a nice pace and won't give you headaches. second, i love when Brian mentions this. plant small, grow big. if you look at my madagascar tank, you'll notice that it is not planted heavy at all. that is to allow everything to grow together and fill space up. but also to give the frogs room to live.

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## Brian

> ... A lot of terrarium stores also tend to cater plant selections toward dart frogs, and these plants generally end up much too small and fragile and terrestrial for something the size of red eyed tree frogs - things like peperomias, pileas, etc.


I just want to point out that there are suitable peperomias for mid sized tree frogs that are usually available at big box stores but less often at terrarium specialists. _Peperomia obtusifolia_ versions are fantastic upright growing sturdy broad leafed dealies. They do well in high humidity but won't like the roots to be soaking wet all the time. _Peperomia clusiifolia_ doesn't seem to get as high high but also has broad sturdy leaves with the benefit of tolerating relatively very little room for the roots- ideal for small planters on the background.

I'm also not afraid to 'overplant'. I do enjoy pruning when necessary and if I have to actually remove an overly enthusiastic plant then it's just an excuse to make another vivarium to have a spot for it :Smile: .

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## bill

good point Brian. those do very well in retf vivs. i think brian was making more a generalization. but as with anything, there are exceptions to the rule  :Smile: 

as far as overplanting, i only recommend planting light to people who are new to the vivarium world. for those people who have experience with plants in a viv or terrarium setting, i would say go for it. i believe people who are new to the whole frog/viv thing can find it overwhelming when all of a sudden they get a massive growth spurt after the acclimation period and they suddenly have this jungle on their hands, as well as trying to care for their new froggie friends.

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tinkgirl77

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