# Frogs & Toads > Tree Frogs >  reptivite with d3 mixed with water

## Kristenmarie211

First off,  for those that don't know.  If you mix reptivite with d3 with water and accidentally spill some on the meal worms you will kill them in less than a minute.  Although I couldn't get my sick tree frog to eat it anyway (bloated and lethargic).  Because I couldn't get my tree frog to eat it but he really needed calcium,  I missed it with some water and put some in his mouth to. Hopefully help him improve.  What happened instead is after a small amount,  he seized and died. Why did this happen?  I know it killed the meal worms but this stuff is meant for reptiles and amphibians. Can someone please tell me what happened or if they can shed light on the situation?

----------


## Carlos

Hello Kristen and welcome to FF.  I'm sorry for your frog's death  :Frown:  !  Not sure what happened to your frog.  What I recommend you do now is to clean and sterilize the enclosure and all decor.  Throw away anything that can't, like substrate and live plants.  Better safe than sorry and getting a new frog contaminated.

Also, would not use that vitamin just in case. Contact ZooMed and maybe will give you a replacement or refund.  Have never used Reptovite; presently using Repashy's products with no problems.  Good luck  :Frog Smile:  !

----------


## Kristenmarie211

I have cleaned out the vivarium and changed out substrate etc although I do have two other tree frogs that are thriving wonderfully with no signs of illness.  I will definitely never use reptivite again.  Might switch to what you use.

----------


## Lindsey

Hi there,
I'm sorry for the loss of your frog.
Curious, what type of treefrog do you own?
There is absolutely nothing bad/wrong with reptivite in use with tree frogs.  I used it in the past for a long while with no problems what-so-ever.  Reptivite is a muti-vitamine only, not a calcium supplement.  Only dust feeders once per week with the reptivite and separately dust with a calcium and d3 powder every other day.
What was the reason for mixing it with water?  I've never heard of that before, and have only dusted feeders with the powder.
Perhaps the mealworms drowned?  Or, I know crickets intake oxygen through their exo-skeletons, maybe mealworms do also?  If the water and reptivite solution completely covered the exo-skeleton, perhaps this would explain the death of the mealworms?  Just a guess....
Mealworms aren't a recomended food sourse for treefrogs anyhow, the chitin is difficult to digest and they have been known to be the cause of impaction, just fyi.
I have no idea what would have caused the death in your frog, but I doubt it was the reptivite.
I do not use reptivite anymore, I use Rep-Cal Herptivite once per week, and Rep-Cal phosphorus free calcium with d3 every other feeding (about 2-3 times/week).
I have also used Repashy Calcium Plus for dusting feeders, this product is an all in one cricket balancer.  I liked it and would use it again...
Great that you were able to clean out the enclosure so quickly, and that your current frogs appear healthy.  You should still keep a close eye on them.

If you can answer these questions (which are found in the sticky, Trouble in the Enclsure), someone may be able to help with what may have actually happened to your treefrog:

1-size of enclosure
2-# on inhabitants - specifically ( if there is another frog ---size differences ?)
3-humidity
4-temp
5-water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6-materials used for substrate
7-enclosure set up i.e. plants( live or artificial) wood, bark etc -how were things prepared prior to being put into the viv
8-main food source
9-vitamins and calcium ? ( how often )
10-lighting 
11-what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12-when is the last time he ate
13-have you found poop lately
14-a pic would be great ( including the frog )  any little cell phone pic is fine
15- how old is the frog 
16-how long have you owned him
17- is the frog wild caught or captive bred
18- frog food-  how often and if its diverse what other feeders are used as treats
19- about how often the frog is handled 
20-is the enclosure is kept in a high or low traffic area

----------


## bill

i know this may seem like a dumb question, but when you mixed that up with water, did you use dechlorinated water?

----------


## Kristenmarie211

They are green tree frogs. I used water cause he refused food but needed nutrition and calcium.  Reptivite with d3 has calcium. Only was using meal worms because I needed to try to get him to eat and as I was at work,  I stopped by the closest pet store and they had no crickets.  It was a thin solution with mostly water and wouldn't have drowned the meal worms because there wasn't that much spilled plus it killed the meal worms in less than a minute which is exactly what happened to my tree frog. They both went into what looked to be seizures and died in less than a minute.  My enclosure is a 55 gallon tank half aquatic. Now only has 2 green tree frogs,  5 fish,  and a snail.  Enclosure is about 80% humid at about 75 degrees.  Full spectrum lighting but more light on aquatic side until now. Conditioned water in aquatic side but I was using unconditioned for occasional mist Until 
Yesterday.  Coconut husk eco  earth mixed with potting soil (un fertilized) normal diet is crickets gut loaded with fluckers orange cubes and calcium infused water gel. Last meal I'm unsure of but 2 days or 3 probably. Lots of poop since I had three frogs,  had him around 3 mos (got young) captive bred, occasional moth/fly for treat,  I don't handle him cause their skin is sensitive,  and it's medium traffic but only from 5:30 pm until about 10 pm. No traffic during the day

----------


## Lindsey

> They are green tree frogs. I used water cause he refused food but needed nutrition and calcium.  Reptivite with d3 has calcium. Only was using meal worms because I needed to try to get him to eat and as I was at work,  I stopped by the closest pet store and they had no crickets.  It was a thin solution with mostly water and wouldn't have drowned the meal worms because there wasn't that much spilled. My enclosure is a 55 gallon tank half aquatic. Now only has 2 green tree frogs,  5 fish,  and a snail.  Enclosure is about 80% humid at about 75 degrees.  Full spectrum lighting but more light on aquatic side until now. Conditioned water in aquatic side but I was using unconditioned for occasional mist Until 
> Yesterday.  Coconut husk economic earth mixed with potting soil (un fertilized) normal diet is crickets gut loaded with flickers orange cubes and calcium infused water gel. Last meal I'm unsure of but 2 days or 3 probably. Lots of poop since I had tree frogs,  had him around 3 mos (got young) captive bred, occasional moth/fly for treat,  I don't handle him cause their skin is sensitive,  and it's medium traffic but only from 5:30 pm until about 10 pm. No traffic during the day


I know reptivite has both calcium and d3, but it's not suitable singly.  You do need to supplement with a calcium and d3 only powder as well.  I don't know about the fish and snail, it could pose a parasite risk?  Someone else will need to chime in on that.
As far as your water, if you were previously not treating water for misting, this could also be a problem.  Godd you're treating all of the water now.
Everything else seems fine....

----------


## Kristenmarie211

I'm pretty sure it was conditioned but couldn't swear to it. Would that cause them to instantly seize and die?

----------


## Kristenmarie211

Well both the crickets food and water had calcium too

----------


## Lindsey

> I'm pretty sure it was conditioned but couldn't swear to it. Would that cause them to instantly seize and die?


Were/are you adding a water treatment?  If not, then your water is not conditioned/treated.  This could cause frogs to tox out and die, but usually takes a while and doesn't happen instantly.

----------


## Lindsey

I don't think lack of calcium is the issue here, or at least the cause of death.  Nor do I believe it was the reptivite...
But, even though you are gut loading the crickets, you still need to dust with calcium.

Crickets should be gut loaded (like you are currently doing), and dusted.  Calcium with d3, and multi0vitamin.

----------


## Kristenmarie211

Everytime I change the water I treat it but should I do it every month? The water is also filtered constantly and filter changed recently

----------


## Lindsey

Oh, and jsut re-read your post above.
Wild caught insects are not the best treats, I'm sure frogs love them though  :Smile: 
There is a risk the insects could be contaminated with a pesticide or something similar, this could cause instant death.  How long has it been you fed a wild caught insect?

----------


## Kristenmarie211

I didn't dust them until yesterday for the first time.  Seems to be ok when the reptivite is dry but getting it wet seemed to change it somehow

----------


## Lindsey

> Everytime I change the water I treat it but should I do it every month? The water is also filtered constantly and filter changed recently


I'm not sure I understand?  All water should be treated before going into the vivarium.

----------


## Kristenmarie211

Like a month and it was a baby moth.  They ignored it actually and it escaped back into the house lol

----------


## Kristenmarie211

It is treated before it goes in but the water conditioner says to use once a month but Ijust do it when iI change the water

----------


## Kristenmarie211

> I'm pretty sure it was conditioned but couldn't swear to it. Would that cause them to instantly seize and die?


This statement was for whether or not I mixed the reptivite with conditioned water or not

----------


## Lindsey

Oh!  Okay.  Sorry  :Smile:

----------


## Carlos

Hi Kristen!  This might be one of those events that are hard to pinpoint down to a specific cause.  You could repeat the ReptiviteD3 water (dechlorinated or use tank water) mix on the mealworms and see what happens to them.  Obviously we are not going to experiment with the frogs.  I don't feed pinced worms to my frogs, only earthworms and Dubia.  The former are excellent for dusted feedings because the supplements stick to their bodies real well.  Good luck  :Frog Smile:  !

----------


## Lindsey

I agree with Carlos.  Sometimes mysterious things happen?
Can you post a picture of the frogs and the enclosure?

----------


## Kristenmarie211

Thanks guys for responding :-)

----------


## DVirginiana

Sorry for your frog's death   :Frown:   This may sound like a silly question... But did you mix the reptivite and water and try to feed that to the frog by itself as a sort of supplement?  I've heard of calcium overdoses causing seizures in frogs before.  I'm probably misreading that though  :P

Hm... This is almost definitely not the cause for the frog's death, but you may want to consider removing the snail for both its sake and the remaining frogs.  Snails and frogs both secrete mucous and toxins from their skin that could be irritating.  They also absorb chemicals through the skin very easily.  Even if they live together in the wild, they wouldn't be as likely to come into contact with these toxins on a regular basis (thinking of a story where someone was having problems partly due to housing a giant land snail in a tank with a frog.)

Also, can you post a picture of your tank?  It sounds like it'd be interesting looking.

----------


## bill

my thought was that since the frog as already of ill health, that if the water was not dechlorinated, that actually ingesting it could have caused the seizure and death. unfortunately, i do know enough about frog biology to know if that is even possible. or as D mentioned, maybe due to it's poor health to begin with, a calcium overdose caused it, which sounds much more feasible than my train of thought.

----------


## Lynn

> First off,  for those that don't know.  If you mix reptivite with d3 with water and accidentally spill some on the meal worms you will kill them in less than a minute.  Although I couldn't get my sick tree frog to eat it anyway (bloated and lethargic).  Because I couldn't get my tree frog to eat it but he really needed calcium,  I missed it with some water and put some in his mouth to. Hopefully help him improve.  What happened instead is after a small amount,  he seized and died. Why did this happen?  I know it killed the meal worms but this stuff is meant for reptiles and amphibians. Can someone please tell me what happened or if they can shed light on the situation?




Hello,
Very sorry to hear about your frog :Frown: 
I wanted to share this information with you.
Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: Calcium Deficiency in Dart Frogs

It is from a dart frog care sheet. However, the information is really good.

I'm not sure how others feel about this brand of supplements . I would not use it. 
Do a 'google' search ; you will find some very objective opinions as to why NOT to use it for amphibians. 

Consider a routine / alternating the use of more than one product. ie:

Rep-Cal Supplements
Rep-Cal Supplements Calcium
Repashy Superfoods :: RETAIL SALES :: By Product Name :: Calcium Plus :: Calcium Plus 4 oz BAG - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center


Lynn

----------


## Kristenmarie211

after seeing a post from someone that had a green tree frog go through the exact same thing as well. I believe that he had a blockage due to eating crickets that were too large.  I have let the other crickets go and now I'm giving smaller crickets.  I have only ever seen calcium deficiency cause seizures.  Never too much and it wouldn't have been an instant response.  I will not use reptivite again. I will show pictures soon, my phone won't let me




> Sorry for your frog's death    This may sound like a silly question... But did you mix the reptivite and water and try to feed that to the frog by itself as a sort of supplement?  I've heard of calcium overdoses causing seizures in frogs before.  I'm probably misreading that though  :P
> 
> Hm... This is almost definitely not the cause for the frog's death, but you may want to consider removing the snail for both its sake and the remaining frogs.  Snails and frogs both secrete mucous and toxins from their skin that could be irritating.  They also absorb chemicals through the skin very easily.  Even if they live together in the wild, they wouldn't be as likely to come into contact with these toxins on a regular basis (thinking of a story where someone was having problems partly due to housing a giant land snail in a tank with a frog.)
> 
> Also, can you post a picture of your tank?  It sounds like it'd be interesting looking.

----------


## DVirginiana

> after seeing a post from someone that had a green tree frog go through the exact same thing as well. I believe that he had a blockage due to eating crickets that were too large.  I have let the other crickets go and now I'm giving smaller crickets.  I have only ever seen calcium deficiency cause seizures.  Never too much and it wouldn't have been an instant response.  I will not use reptivite again. I will show pictures soon, my phone won't let me


Hm... I've never seen calcium deficiency cause seizures; usually it causes MBD (Metabolic Bone Disease) which is typically characterized by weakness and poor bone formation.  These symptoms are almost always obvious for a while before anything as serious as a seizure could happen.  Calcium overdose, however, will cause seizures.  When in a liquid (like water, or a body) Calcium ionizes (forms Ca2+ ions).  Ca2+ is a very important in intercellular signalling in animals; most notably in the firing of neurons.  In animals that absorb fluid and oxygen readily through their skin, being exposed to an excess of dissolved calcium over the skin or even through the mouth will cause seizures, as all the Ca2+ will begin to cause neurons to fire abnormally.
I don't know if that's what happened to your frog, but I believe that's the reason calcium overdose will cause seizures (I'm mainly a plant person, but Ca2+ works pretty similarly in both systems).

Was there a lump on the frog's side?  That'd be an indicator of a blockage.

----------


## guilletto

Damn! I have just bought Reptivite with D3 alone because prospect said it included Calcium! Are you sure that it isn't ok?


> I know reptivite has both calcium and d3, but it's not suitable singly.  You do need to supplement with a calcium and d3 only powder as well.  I don't know about the fish and snail, it could pose a parasite risk?  Someone else will need to chime in on that.
> As far as your water, if you were previously not treating water for misting, this could also be a problem.  Godd you're treating all of the water now.
> Everything else seems fine....

----------


## Heather

Both high and low calcium levels can cause seizures. The percentage of frogs having calcium deficiencies definitely outweighs the number of overdoses. This is mainly due to lack of supplementation, by us, in captivity.

Brands do matter. One of my retf's starting having tetany last year out of the blue, even though receiving supplements routinely, both weekly Herptivite and every other day calcium/D3. I checked the dates and they were not expired. I switched to repcal calcium with D 3 (as recommended by my vet) and continued to use herptivite and the tetany was gone within 2 days. 

So many things can change the amount of supplement they actually get... did the frog eat the night you used the supplement? How many did he eat? How much coated the cricket or insect? How big is the insect(s)? How much did the insect clean off before they were eaten? Did the insect get wet and the supplement washed off? Etc. This is why it is also a good idea to dust their food just prior to feeding. It will help to eliminate a few of these possibilities of less supplement on your frogs insects.

I would consider returning the Reptivite...it is formulated for reptiles. Repashy and Herptivite are great options for frogs. 

Yes, it is necessary to also have a separate calcium supplement, one that has vitamin D3 so the calcium can be properly absorbed. Otherwise, it will pass through their intestines with minimal absorption, which can again lead to deficiency.

----------


## Heather

A safer way to dose the calcium when our frogs aren't eating is to use a product like reptaboost or the liquid electroltye replacement(s) soaks made for amphibians, or to carefully force feed the appropriate amount of insect(s) with the appropriate amount of supplement. 

Here is a thread we had not long ago about calcium, vitamin D3 and why herps need the supplements when in captivity...
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...ut-vit-d3.html

----------


## DVirginiana

> Both high and low calcium levels can cause seizures. The percentage of frogs having calcium deficiencies definitely outweighs the number of overdoses. This is mainly due to lack of supplementation, by us, in captivity.


Just out of curiosity, do you usually see other signs before seizures from deficiency, like MBD? I'm not super familiar with vitamin/supplementation symptoms (most of my animals can eat whole prey from a very young age... So much simpler that way!)

----------


## guilletto

in Spain I don't find rep cal products. Are Exo terra supplements good? some people say to me "buy Reptivite " other "buy herptivite" ...and so on . I don't know what I must buy.

----------


## Lindsey

Hi all,
Well.....
First off, I don't endorse nor particularly care for reptivite.  I did use it, never had a problem.  Switched to Repashy products and am now using the Rep-Cal brand calcium and separate mult vitamin (herptivite).
I do know, as I'm looking at an old sample that I had, that the reptivite is safe for amphibians.
Zoo Med ReptiVite Vitamin - Free Shipping
Also, I did a brief search online about the product, and can't find any real accounts of why reptivite is un-safe for amphibians.
This mysterious issue of reptivite having killed meal worms and a tree frog, seems to me very unlikely.  I would guess it was either a drowning situation, or coincidence, or something enitirely different.
Heather has made some good points.  If there is too much of any product ingested at one time, this could cause a problem as well.
But, as I said, I do not use reptivite at all any more, and can't speak for it's efficacy.
I dis-agree that the product is dangerous, however....

And, guilletto:
The exo-terra products work fine.  Just be sure to use a separate vitamin and separate calcium.
Dust with calcium a couple to three times per week and the vitamin once per week.

----------


## guilletto

Thks for your answer! I wanna know a last thing. I bought Reptivite alone because it seemed it included Calcium and vitD3 (also minerals, vitamins,...) Then, must I buy another product with calcium :S ?

----------


## Lindsey

I found this while searching online:
http://www.frogforum.net/general-dis...-vitamins.html
interesting because John states reptivite should be fine, by itself?
Now I'm really confused.

----------


## Lindsey

> Thks for your answer! I wanna know a last thing. I bought Reptivite alone because it seemed it included Calcium and vitD3 (also minerals, vitamins,...) Then, must I buy another product with calcium :S ?


Hi Guilletto:
I don't know?  See above post...
I personally would.  I do, and did.  My frogs are all doing very well.

----------


## guilletto

So I will give it Reptivite by itself. But being a milk frog of 5 months more or less, how many crickets must Iit eat? How many must I dust to? 


> Hi Guilletto:
> I don't know?  See above post...
> I personally would.  I do, and did.  My frogs are all doing very well.

----------


## Lindsey

> So I will give it Reptivite by itself. But being a milk frog of 5 months more or less, how many crickets must Iit eat? How many must I dust to?


Hi again,
I would highly suggest you also supplement with a calcium powder with d3 as well.
Even though some said it's not necessary because the reptivite contains calcium.  Your frog is young still, and growing.  A calcium deficiency is likely if he doesn't get enough, and a calcium overload is unlikely.
MBD (metabolic bone disease) can be fatal.
The reptivite contains the vitamin A which is necessary, but when consumed with the calcium at the same time, the calcium doesn't get absorbed as easily.  That is why many recomend you use a calcium powder singly, separate from the vitamin.

I am very confused as to why John would say it's ok to use only reptivite, and not a calcium only powder (in above link), maybe someone can shed light on this?

----------


## guilletto

Ufff, this topic is so controversial!! Ok. My conclusion is:
 If I only dust reptivite there could be problems. But, if I also dust calcium (WITH D3 too??????) nothing bad can happen 
So, I will dust with calcium (each other day?)


> Hi again,
> I would highly suggest you also supplement with a calcium powder with d3 as well.
> Even though some said it's not necessary because the reptivite contains calcium.  Your frog is young still, and growing.  A calcium deficiency is likely if he doesn't get enough, and a calcium overload is unlikely.
> MBD (metabolic bone disease) can be fatal.
> The reptivite contains the vitamin A which is necessary, but when consumed with the calcium at the same time, the calcium doesn't get absorbed as easily.  That is why many recomend you use a calcium powder singly, separate from the vitamin.
> 
> I am very confused as to why John would say it's ok to use only reptivite, and not a calcium only powder (in above link), maybe someone can shed light on this?

----------


## Heather

It's tough to get an exact dose for each individual frog due to their own eating habits. 

From what I have learned and experienced over the years, this is what I have found...
You should use a calcium with vitamin D3 supplement every other day. For a MVI, Repashy can be used daily and Herptivite should be used one day a week, but not on the same day as the calcium  :Smile: . 

You're right, though...there is a lot of different information on the topic.

The one thing we do know for sure is that without calcium with vita D3 for frogs in captivity...they will have bone, muscular, and digestive issues and they will develop MDB.

----------


## fr0g9

> So I will give it Reptivite by itself. But being a milk frog of 5 months more or less, how many crickets must Iit eat? How many must I dust to?


If you are only using one supplement for powdering your crickets it should be some sort of Calcium powder. Occasional dusted crickets with Calcium is a MUST, but a Multivitamin is COMPLETELY optional (and just like it is for people, it's redundant to use multivitamins if you already eat nutritious foods). You only need to powder crix with Calcium 1-2x per week, and non-dusted food should still make up more than half the diet. What's MOST important is what you feed your crickets before you feed them to your frogs.

----------


## fr0g9

> First off,  for those that don't know.  If you mix reptivite with d3 with water and accidentally spill some on the meal worms you will kill them in less than a minute.  Although I couldn't get my sick tree frog to eat it anyway (bloated and lethargic).  Because I couldn't get my tree frog to eat it but he really needed calcium,  I missed it with some water and put some in his mouth to. Hopefully help him improve.  What happened instead is after a small amount,  he seized and died. Why did this happen?  I know it killed the meal worms but this stuff is meant for reptiles and amphibians. Can someone please tell me what happened or if they can shed light on the situation?


First thing that needs to be pointed out is Frogs don't drink through their mouths (DUH!), so if you decide for force water+reptivite down his mouth you could potentially suffocate him.

Also, you should never attempt force feeding Vitamin powder on its own, that could put a death sentence on a perfectly healthy frog.

From the symptoms you describe, I'm almost positive that your frog was suffering from Edema. There are many different ways Edema can happen, one of the more common ways is kidney failure due to Vitamin Toxicity. Based on the fluid retention you describe this is the most likely scenario. Once the kidney fails its very unfortunate but there's not much you can do, I'm sorry to hear about your Frog. I hope this helps you figure out what might have went wrong.

----------

