# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Beginner Discussion >  Dart frogs for a beginner

## bogalog

Hi all, I posted in another section of the forum about trying to decide which type of frog to keep, and the more i think about it, the more dart frogs make sense for me.

My reasons for considering dart frogs:

They are diurnal - nocturnal frogs could definitely be an issue when they call (have to keep the tank in my room)

I am much happier about handling fruit flies, and indeed having a go at breeding them myself (and so is my mum, who will look after whatever frog i get if i go away)

They are just plain cuter  :Big Grin: 


Obviously I want to get some first hand experiences of keeping dart frogs if im going to try  :Smile: . I havent kept frogs before, or even any kind of amphibian/reptile, I am willing to put in effort to get this to work (of course), but is it something I should even try? Do I need some experience of keeping other frogs before I start on these more complicated frogs?

I am currently reading through caresheets and anything else helpful i can find on the net, but I would really appreciate advice from you helpful bunch  :Frog Smile: 

I would still like to buy an exo-terra enclosure (or similar pre-made), what size would be appropriate?
Do they need to be kept together? I assume a pair would be best?
From this care sheet http://www.amphibiancare.com/frogs/c...ndartfrog.html
there are several types easier to keep, and I have found some of them on this site: http://www.dartfrog.co.uk/amphibians.html.
But i would prefer to go see them in person - are there any shops with darts in stock in south england? I cant remember seeing any dart frogs in the reptile shops i've been in.

The more I think about it, the more dart frogs make sense!

Thanks for any advice!

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## Paul Rust

*First of all, Welcome to FrogForum!*
*Darts can be just fine as a first attempt with amphibians if you do your homework. The best advice I can give is to not try and re-invent the wheel. Darts can be challenging and finnicky. Once you get the enclosure setup and have temperature and humidity under control, the rest is easy! Many members here keep darts and can help you get set up and recommend some good species to begin with. Good luck and have fun!*

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John

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## John911

I am a beginner, but have had frogs in the past..just not on this level.  I picked up some cobalt tincs a month ago, and couldnt be happier with them.  They are always out and exploring.  I keep 3 in a 20 long, but i am ready to sepparate one if it becomes an issue.  Ive successfully bred fruitflies my first try.  All I can say is keep doing your homework and ask questions.

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## bogalog

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate the help.

Specifically, I am looking at Dendrobates tinctorius azureus, would a 12x12x18" tank be enough for one? I can only manage one tank where i am at the moment, and cant risk having to buy a second if they become territorial. Of course, if they are much happier in pairs or groups I will have to rethink it, the next size up in a tank of that shape is 18x18x24", which is getting on the large side :P

I'm carefully reading through the article on modifying tanks for dart frogs, and it seems doable.

Ok, question time!

1. My bedroom (where i am planning to keep the frog/s) varies in temperature between about 24 and 28 degrees. Do i still need to worry about heating to create some form of temperature gradient, or is it unnecessary?

2. Can i keep azure tincs. on their own? or do they need to be kept with a partner?

3.If they can be kept on their own, is 12x12x18" a reasonable size for the vivarium?

4. Do i need a misting machine? or is daily misting by hand ok?


Thanks for the help, I really do appreciate it

Edit: From what i've managed to find, azure tincs are best kept in male+female pairs, will shops guarantee sexes? Isn't it difficult to sex them when they are young?

I'm also considering Dendrobates Leucomelas - are they any easier than azure tincs? I realise they are more of a ground dwelling frog, what kind of size tank is good for one or two of them?
I read that they are easier to keep in groups, given enough space, but I dont have enough space to keep groups, only one, maybe two

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## Paul Rust

1*. 24-28 is a good daytime temp. I let the enclosure cool to 21 during the night. I automate all environmental variables so I can simulate natural conditions and adjust it throughout the seasons of their natural range.*

*2. Two males will try to kill each other. A male-female pair or a single of either will do just fine.*

*3. That is fine for a pair or one.*

*4. Misting by hand is fine if you monitor the humidity. Again, I use an automated misting system.* 

*None of this is absolute and others will undoubtedly have some more ideas for you.*


*Edit. Leucomelas are a great beginner dart and do well in groups.*

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## bogalog

Thanks for your help, I basically need to decide between a floor-dwelling and tree-dwelling dart frog now.
I've ordered "Poison Dart Frogs" by A and S sihler to read, and I'm still finding useful bits of information on the internet.
I think as soon as I've decided which frog, I'll buy the vivarium and make sure I can keep the conditions stable, while breeding some fruit flies. Once I know I've got the basics down, I'll start looking at where to get the frogs!

Thanks again

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## John Clare

I'm at work so this has to be quick.

Dartfrogs are like learning to ride a bike - it's very challenging, and simple mistakes can hurt a lot, but once you "get it", it's pretty easy.  Simple mistakes = killing your frogs very easily.  So do your homework as you are.

The Sihler book is flawed, in my opinion.  Actually, English language dart frog books aren't wonderful, but again, that's my opinion.  Sihler's book is the one that has a double false bottom and no real substrate - why on earth such a construction would be of any use to man or beast, I don't know.

Regarding tank size - azureus don't climb much - think horizontal size over vertical size.  Vertical terrariums are more for thumbnail dart frogs and real climbers like Leucomelas.

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## bogalog

Thanks for your help John, I realise that they are going to require a lot of setting up/attention, and that's why im being a pain in the *** here with the questions :P

Despite the difficulties, I'm still interested in keeping dart frogs, and I'm looking into the best ways to feed them at the moment. dartfrog.co.uk seems to have a lot of good stuff, and I'm going to check if any shops nearby carry food for darts in case of emergencies. I think I will buy a tank on Monday (away this weekend), and start setting it up. If the humidity and temperatures seem fine then I'll start looking at where to buy the frogs!

At the moment, i'm interested in "custodian" invertebrates for the substrate, are they a worthwhile addition? Is it common to use them?

Oh, and I just wanted to say what a nice site this is, full of friendly people with a passion for frogs, awesome!

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## JimO

I've kept and bred azureus for a number of years.  As Paul indicated, if you get the enclosure and conditions right, dart frogs are really easy to keep and relatively easy to breed.  You can keep a solitary frog.  I have a lone male adult azureus who has been in his own viv for months.  I have some sub-adults from another bloodline and I'm just waiting for a female to mature enough to put in with him.

I got my first Leucs as tadpoles, so I don't have any personal experience with them since I only have one froglet morphed out.  I will say this, though, he's in a grow out tank with three auratus froglets and although he is a bit smaller, he the boldest of them all.  When I open the top to feed, he's always out and just sits waiting for his food.  The auratus froglets scamper into the leaf litter.

Although my azureus climb, they spend the vast majority of their time on the ground, as do my auratus.  I think Leucs are similar.

Azureus females with fight even more aggressively than the males.  Some folks successfully keep trios, but I've heard that it's usually a group that has grown up together.  If the trio is one male and two females, the females will often eat one another's eggs.

The 12x12x18 is best suited for arboreal species in that there is more vertical space that horizontal space.  It certainly would be adequate for one frog.  A 20-gal long would quite a bit more floor space to work with and I can typically get a tank and glass lid for much less than one of the commercial terrariums.  There is plenty of info on making an aquarium into a vivarium.  Even with the Exo or Zoo-Med terrariums, you have to do some modifications for dart frogs.  For example, most of the screened top has be be covered with glass or plastic to keep the humidity up and you have to be pretty diligent about plugging small openings if you want it to be fruit-fly escape proof.  I have one Exo terrarium and even small crickets manage to escape.

All in all, dart frogs aren't really any more difficult than any other type of frog.  I'd say go for it, but then again, I'm biased.  :Smile:

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John

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## Paul Rust

*Lot's of good stuff here guys.* 
*As far as critters in the substrate go, absolutely yes. I always keep springtails going strong in my dart enclosures, particularly thumbnail frogs. But the larger ones enjoy hunting them down too. I can't really prove it but I think they keep the viv healthy.*
*Sounds like you are going to be a good Dart Frog keeper!*

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## Paul Rust

*Oh, I almost forgot. I culture twice as many fruit flies as I need. They won't go to waste because I give them a treat of lots of flies now and then. I don't want to run out. I feed them pinhead crickets as a snack now and then too, they go nuts for them!*

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## bogalog

Ok, im going to get started on the fruit flies next week, and there are plenty of woodlice that i can trial in my tank from my garden  :Big Grin: 

You say you use an automated misting system Paul, is that similar to the repti-fogger humidifier? I have found this for about £50, and am very tempted as I dont want to miss spraying the tank and get into problems.

I am going to go to southern aquatics (local shop for aquariums, where I originally found the milk tree frogs) and have a look at the fish tanks that I could possibly modify. Seems like a perfect excuse to buy that dremel tool I wanted a while back!


I have a new worry now.... that once I am setup with the fruit fly colonies and some experience under my belt, it will be too hard to say no to more tanks of frogs  :Frown:

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## Paul Rust

*I don't like the foggers. I make a high pressure system similar to the Mist-King systems. But you might like the fogger, give it a shot as it's a lot less expensive if you don't like it.*

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## bogalog

Ok, new question!

Drainage - if i were to go for a misting system, I assume that drainage will become more of a problem - I have seen two possible solutions to this:

1. drill a hole in the side of the tank for water to drain out of (obviously with some kind of pipe and stop system)

2. run a pipe down the side of the pipe into the drainage layer and simply cap the top to stop bugs from leaving

Obviously, number 2 is easier to accomplish, and can be easily hidden. Is this the best way to manage it? Is there anything I'm not considering here?

Edit: I'm currently watching videos on making your own vivarium backgrounds, and have realised that not only will these tanks be very hard to empty out to clean properly, but wont you have to have a suitable temporary enclosure for the frog? (including all the humidity concerns etc.)
I realise these are meant to be low maintenance frogs, and spot cleaning can be done, but do these not need to have a proper clean out of the tank?

Sorry about all the questions, I don't want to mess up  :Frown:

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## John Clare

Unless you've a bunch of tanks, I recommend hand misting - gives you an excuse to check out what's happening in the terrarium on a regular basis.  

To answer your new questions:

Misting is a way of life with dart frog terraria, hand or automatic misting system.  So drainage is something to seriously take into account.

Solution 1 is great if you are experienced at drilling glass with a diamond hole saw.  

I actually use solution 2 - just make sure you cap the pipe in some fashion, and that you put something on the bottom so the pipe won't come up when you remove the cap.  Drill some holes in the sides at the bottom of the pipe to allow water to enter freely.

If you've got a planted terrarium with a good substrate mix, you don't need to spot clean - you might have to clean out a small terrarium every 3 or 4 years, at worst.  You can set up a temporary dart frog container easily.  I routinely use these:

Josh's Frogs - 190 oz. quarantine/temporary enclosure & lid - quarantine/temporary enclosures

I put about 1 inch (2.5 cm) of wet coconut husk (the chunks) in the bottom.  On top of this I put some leaf litter that won't rot quickly (in the US they have a species of tree called "Live Oak", which is ideal.  You can also use magnolia leaves.  All should be dried/old leaves, not fresh ones).  I spray the container down with distilled water to moisten everything, with a hint of water in the base of the coconut fiber, and then I put plant cuttings on top of the leaf litter. The easiest for me is Devil's Ivy, also known as Pothos - Epipremnum aureum.  Then the frogs go in straight away.  Keep the container in a room that is about 21-25 °C (early 70s °F), and mist every few days.  Feed the frogs every 1-2 days on dusted fruit flies.

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## bogalog

Thanks so much for your help John, you and everyone else on this forum have been fantastic.

My bedroom rarely goes below 23 degrees if im there, and i've seen anything up to 31 degrees when i refused to open the window after using my computer for a long period, so a temporary container like the one you suggested would do fine for a short period, I wouldnt have to worry about temperatures.

I've been reading guides on how to build terrariums, and plan to use yours on this site (which is a fantastic guide by the way). I followed some people's diaries when they made their own terrarium backs, and the combination of your false bottom method with an expanding foam backdrop seems feasible, and at a reasonable cost.

I will definitely start hand misting, and if humidity becomes a problem I can always sort out an automatic system in the future.

I have no experience in cutting glass, nor aquarium or terrarium construction, which is why I am swaying towards modifying an exo-terra rather than trying to create my own. I guess it depends on the range available.

I have managed to find oak leaves which are apparently suitable for dart frogs and will decay slowly, and my local shop sells many different substrates for amphibian and reptile use, I dont think that will be a problem.

I know you say I can get the frogs in as soon as the plants are in, but I'm going to watch it for a bit, make sure I can keep the humidity and temperature at reasonable levels, as well as making sure I can get their fruit flies going.

One more question before I go to bed - I am edging towards leucomelas, do I need a light in the top or not? The tank will be away from the window, not in the dark but not in bright light by any means.

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## Paul Rust

*Here are a few pics of a simple drain. The fitting is 4" high in the drain rock. This enclosure stays hot, over 80F and is heated from the bottom so lots of water keeps it humid. I empty the botttle about every 2 months.*

*You will want a light for the live plants. Also to simulate the 12 hour photoperiod that they have in nature.*

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## bogalog

Ok, that is much less often than I thought it would have to be emptied, thanks for that. 

It's definitely time for bed, I've been researching for many hours now, I just know I'm going to dream of frogs  :Smile: 

Getting excited thinking about starting this going!

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## Paul Rust

*Welcome to the addiction!!*

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## John Clare

Just one instance of your frogs going to 31 °C will quite likely kill them.  People kill dart frogs by getting them too cool (on the other end, 15 °C / 59 °F can cause a frog to go into decline and die slowly).  You need to be able to provide temperature controlled conditions or you'll waste a lot of money on these frogs, not to mention kill the poor things.

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## Paul Rust

> Just one instance of your frogs going to 31 °C will quite likely kill them. People kill dart frogs by getting them too cool (on the other end, 15 °C / 59 °F can cause a frog to go into decline and die slowly). You need to be able to provide temperature controlled conditions or you'll waste a lot of money on these frogs, not to mention kill the poor things.


*Very good point here, just to add to it.*
*If they do get chilled and survive, they may never fully recover.*

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## bogalog

I'm going to get hold of a decent thermometer and check that the area I'm going to put the tank doesn't get that warm. The measurements I've been quoting have been from an alarm clock under a bedside lamp, which actually isn't a good reading at all most likely

The temperatures I've seen have only ever been unreasonable when I haven't opened a window due to moths coming in late at night, and that's easily sorted by putting up with the moths and opening the window regardless. 

I will get a thermometer and check the temperature range before doing anything.

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## Paul Rust

*Let me just give you an example of environmental controls that I use so you can get an idea.*

*Lighting: On timers, 12hrs on, 12hrs off.*

*Heating: 200 watt fan heaters under the enclosure, thermostat controlled with nighttime drop. 78F during the day, 73F at night.*

*Humidity: High pressure misting system, humidistat controlled. On at 60% and off at 80%. the humidity will continue to rise after system shuts off.*

*Cooling: 80mm PC fans, one pulling air in and one pushing air out. On timers, 30 minutes every 2 hours 'round the clock with one 1" emergency fan that vents if temp goes above 82F. Because everything else is automated this won't disturb the environment but will provide ventilation and keeps the front of the enclosure clear for viewing.*

*Of course everyone will find their own way to do these things but the goal is to make it so that external influences dont disrupt the dart's environment (like an over zealous partner turning the AC on full blast) aaaaargh!*

*All my dart tanks have these controls in place. I don't like to take chances with these variables. It is a small price to pay for not killing my animals, plust many of my frogs cost over $110.00 each, a loss hurts the wallet as well as the heart.*

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## bogalog

A very helpful post, thanks. 

I am wondering how you setup the fans though, I assume they are outside of the enclosure blowing through a fine mesh to stop the fruit flies etc. from getting out?

I'm away this weekend, continuing the research and buying a reliable thermometer on Monday to see what conditions I will have to manage. 

If I feel that the frogs safety is in danger by keeping them, you have my word that I won't even try. It is not my intention to just have these as a fad, and I would never endanger an animals life.

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## bogalog

Right, I was away from home a lot longer than expected. Luckily, when I got home the dart frog book I ordered had arrived, and I have read it through.

My newest concern is finding a vet experienced with frogs (or even willing to have a go).

But fortunately, the book has made me more confident on managing the tank itself, and I am going to start putting it together and ordering starter cultures next week. In particular I liked the idea of using an old pringles lid to keep a piece of fruit in the viv, to help focus the fruit flies. I still only know one place in the UK that seems to have leucs in stock, and it's a good 2.5hr+ drive.

The current question that I would like an experienced answer for is the use of a quarantine tank. Is it useful to keep new frogs in a quarantine tank for 2 weeks before moving to the tank, as the book suggested? 

Oh, and I have more or less decided on keeping 2 leucs in a 45x45x60cm (WxDxH) tank (~27 gallons). Lots of space for plants and interesting hidey-holes  :Smile:

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## bogalog

Just as an update, I'm very excited as I've just bought my tank and wood, and not only that, I found out my local pet shop sells both fruitflies and pinhead crickets! Running out of food is no longer an issue  :Big Grin: 

Going to head off to the local hobbycraft/haskins to buy plants and stuff for the false bottom later today.

Also, following Paul's advice (which was very helpful), I will be automating as much of the conditions as much as i can (other than the misting by hand).

My newest question (for Paul, or anyone else with a similar fan setup) is do you have one fan at the top, and one at the bottom of your tank? I bought the exo-terra 18x18x24" tank, and am not confident cutting a hole in the glass to mount a fan. Obviously at the top you can have the fan coming through the mesh, but I cant see anywhere else to have a fan for input.

Very excited!

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