# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Beginner Discussion >  Ranitomeya vanzolinii - Boldness?

## Brit

Hey everyone. Just wanted to ask a quick question regarding R. vanzolinii. I have been captivated with this frog for months now, finding them absolutely stunning, and would like to ask some questions regarding boldness and tank size.

I have heard several different things from several different sites and people regarding the activity level of this particular frog, and have even watched some videos on Youtube to get an idea but I would like a word from some people who own or have owned or dealt with this frog before. I would hate to get my hands on a pair or trio of these guys only to find that I'll never see them.  :Frown: 

Also, what tank size does everything think would be best for at max a trio of adult vanzos? Wondering if tank size would effect their level of activity as well.

Thanks in advance for any helpful information anyone has, I'd love to hear lots of opinions please!  :Big Grin:

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## bshmerlie

That is one frog I don't have....yet. :Big Grin:  So I can't say with experience, but what I have noticed to be true with all frogs is that a well planted tank with lots of hides makes them feel more comfortable.  Especially if you might be dealing with a shy species it would be best to plant it rather densely.  You can leave a clearing along the front to see if they come forward.  Being small darts they are most likely going to love thick leaf litter and you would want to include springtails and isopods to give them a food selection. Start the tank build way ahead of time that gives your mircofauna time to establish itself.

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## Brit

Thanks for the answer Cheri. 

Hopefully my tank for them will be started well ahead of schedule, and I'll be able to order some more materials for it...3 inches of leaf litter right? And I can get springtails and isopods off Josh's can't I? Hopefully...It'll be a while before I start and hopefully I'll provide enough foliage. After my big build I'll have a bit more experience. XD;

This post was also a _bump._

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## John Clare

_R. vanzolini_ has a varied reputation for boldness.  Most people who keep them say they see them often, but I rarely hear people say they are as bold as their _R. imitator_ relatives.  I've kept their close ally _R. flavovittata_ for a while now and they vary from skittish to very bold, depending on the individual frog and whether they've bred or not (I find frogs that have bred are bolder).

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Kisa

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## rcteem

> Hey everyone. Just wanted to ask a quick question regarding R. vanzolinii. I have been captivated with this frog for months now, finding them absolutely stunning, and would like to ask some questions regarding boldness and tank size.
> 
> I have heard several different things from several different sites and people regarding the activity level of this particular frog, and have even watched some videos on Youtube to get an idea but I would like a word from some people who own or have owned or dealt with this frog before. I would hate to get my hands on a pair or trio of these guys only to find that I'll never see them. 
> 
> Also, what tank size does everything think would be best for at max a trio of adult vanzos? Wondering if tank size would effect their level of activity as well.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any helpful information anyone has, I'd love to hear lots of opinions please!


I have noticed that they are both...mine are very bold the first three hours the light is on and the last three hours the light on. I keep a 1.2 in a 20H vert that has a clay background with 8 Broms, 6 film canisters, and lots of cover with other plants and a piece of wood that is out in the open. My biggest issue I have had with them is getting them to breed for me...lol. The are so inconsistent and took several different pairs and try/ selling before I got the ones I have now to breed. Hope this helps 


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## bshmerlie

> The are so inconsistent and took several different pairs and try/ selling before I got the ones I have now to breed. Hope this helps


Interesting....how long do you keep trying with a pair before you swap them out with another? If they are full grown adults what is a reasonable time frame?  I understand it could vary with species but let's say this species.   Also let's say you buy a group of them from a breeder....as they mature can that group breed together or would you need individuals from other parents to breed with them?

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## Brit

That bit about breeding is quite interesting...I guess I should have added that to my question up top. I'd like to know more about that as well...

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## rcteem

> That bit about breeding is quite interesting...I guess I should have added that to my question up top. I'd like to know more about that as well...


I have been in this hobby since 2003 and this frog is just one of those frogs I haven't had much luck with them...that being said there is someone I know who's first frogs were these and they breed like crazy for them...we all meet our match sometime...lol.


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## bshmerlie

> Interesting....how long do you keep trying with a pair before you swap them out with another? If they are full grown adults what is a reasonable time frame? I understand it could vary with species but let's say this species. Also let's say you buy a group of them from a breeder....as they mature can that group breed together or would you need individuals from other parents to breed with them?


Anybody care to tackle this one??? :Big Grin:   I'm just looking for an opinion, I promise I won't hold you to it or quote you to anyone.   :Big Grin:

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## Brit

> I have been in this hobby since 2003 and this frog is just one of those frogs I haven't had much luck with them...that being said there is someone I know who's first frogs were these and they breed like crazy for them...we all meet our match sometime...lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Haha yeah I guess. You can't win every time. XD

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## rcteem

> Anybody care to tackle this one???  I'm just looking for an opinion, I promise I won't hold you to it or quote you to anyone.


The vanzolini mature at 6-9 months old...so if they are in this agre frame you could get eggs. Eggs will consist of 2-4 eggs per clutch


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## Brit

> Anybody care to tackle this one???  I'm just looking for an opinion, I promise I won't hold you to it or quote you to anyone.


I second this motion!

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## rcteem

> The vanzolini mature at 6-9 months old...so if they are in this agre frame you could get eggs. Eggs will consist of 2-4 eggs per clutch
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry...I breed mine as 2.3 so you will be fine breeding them in a group...just watch the females as they can eat each others eggs. I just traded groups when I got frustrated with them...lol


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## bshmerlie

> Sorry...I breed mine as 2.3 so you will be fine breeding them in a group...just watch the females as they can eat each others eggs. I just traded groups when I got frustrated with them...lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you are unsuccessful with a group and you think you're doing everything right how long do you normally give them before you try another group? And if you buy a group from a breeder and they are from the same parents can you breed that group or do you need another group from different parents?

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## rcteem

> If you are unsuccessful with a group and you think you're doing everything right how long do you normally give them before you try another group? And if you buy a group from a breeder and they are from the same parents can you breed that group or do you need another group from different parents?


I bought adults and if the didn't breed for me in 5 months I sold them and waited til more pairs were for sale. If you buy all from one breeder you can breed them...dart frogs can be F8s and still not have any health issues. It's personal choice though


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## Brit

> If you buy all from one breeder you can breed them...dart frogs can be F8s and still not have any health issues. It's personal choice though
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You just answered another question I had. I was wondering if darts experience any genetic issues if they are bred from related parents, but if it's not that big of an issue I don't think I'll be picky about it in the future. Though I'd rather the parents be unrelated I guess...but maybe I'm putting too much stock in it. XD;

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## rcteem

> You just answered another question I had. I was wondering if darts experience any genetic issues if they are bred from related parents, but if it's not that big of an issue I don't think I'll be picky about it in the future. Though I'd rather the parents be unrelated I guess...but maybe I'm putting too much stock in it. XD;


No issues you need to worry about...they can go a long time before you need to worry...mixd parent groups is always good except with pumilio...since there are so many different locales always try to breed pumilio with the same year import if at all possible...that's a topic for another thread though

Also for the OP, I have 5 vanzolini froglets for sale if interested shoot me a pm


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## Brit

> No issues you need to worry about...they can go a long time before you need to worry...mixd parent groups is always good except with pumilio...since there are so many different locales always try to breed pumilio with the same year import if at all possible...that's a topic for another thread though
> 
> Also for the OP, I have 5 vanzolini froglets for sale if interested shoot me a pm
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Alright. Thanks for the info.  :Smile: 

I'd still like to hear from other members on the issue of boldness. I'd like to get some different opinions from all sides please!

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## bshmerlie

I think its a general consensus that they're not as bold as some of the other dart species out there.  But if its a frog you really want , do like I plan on doing with my Benedicta. Im going to get a group of them and Hopefull I can pick out a pair that will be the boldest of the bunch. That is also going to allow me to hopefully find a pair that will breed. So breeding and sort of bold would work for me.   :Big Grin: 

On a side note.  These guys are pretty small. I still think your first darts should be some of the larger species.  Sometimes baby steps make the trip more enjoyable.  Getting baby thumbnails is a huge step from Whites Tree frogs.  You can get a more beginner species, learn from them and then sell them and move onto something more challenging. Jumping to the end game doesn't always have the best results. Its nothing to be ashamed of.    Learning is why we are here.  I started off with fire bellies...the easiest frogs out there.  Went to some tree frogs.  Then got the easiest and boldest and biggest adult darts I could find.  Then I got some baby darts.  Then I got some thumbnails.  Then some baby thumbnails. Then I wanted to breed so I got a pair of the most prolific breeders I could find...the E.Anthonyi.  Now im learning about egg and tadpole care.  Learn, plan and prepare.  Baby steps are a good thing for you and the frogs.

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## Brit

Oh I absolutely agree about baby steps. XD I would never try out thumbs first, do you think I'm insane? I'm not Eric. Vents were his first darts right? Crazy person. XD ...Or maybe just really brave...

This whole thread was about learning, planning and preparing before I jumped into getting some vanzos, I even PM'd some people to ask about their experience and the size tanks they're keeping they're frogs in too. I want to make sure I provide the safest and most comfortable home for any frogs I have and to make sure that they're happy and healthy.

But for some reason it seems I'm drawn to the frogs that have a reputation for being shy...D. auratus were my first choice...heard they're quite shy as well. XD;

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## rcteem

> Oh I absolutely agree about baby steps. XD I would never try out thumbs first, do you think I'm insane? I'm not Eric. Vents were his first darts right? Crazy person. XD ...Or maybe just really brave...
> 
> This whole thread was about learning, planning and preparing before I jumped into getting some vanzos, I even PM'd some people to ask about their experience and the size tanks they're keeping they're frogs in too. I want to make sure I provide the safest and most comfortable home for any frogs I have and to make sure that they're happy and healthy.
> 
> But for some reason it seems I'm drawn to the frogs that have a reputation for being shy...D. auratus were my first choice...heard they're quite shy as well. XD;


Good keep it up!!! Im glad to see people doing this. Im always happier to help answer questions people have before getting their frogs vs having their frogs before they know what they need and how to care for them. ALSO, a little birdie told me someone is getting some vanzos soon so maybe after a while they can contribute to this thread!!!

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## Brit

> ALSO, a little birdie told me someone is getting some vanzos soon so maybe after a while they can contribute to this thread!!!


Oh? And who would that be? >>

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## John Clare

Chris means me.  I have held off on these guys for a long time in the hopes that Understory would eventually start selling them in the US again, but Mark Pepper seems to be afraid of helping to launder the lines already here, I think.  Pity really.

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## Brit

> Chris means me.  I have held off on these guys for a long time in the hopes that Understory would eventually start selling them in the US again, but Mark Pepper seems to be afraid of helping to launder the lines already here, I think.  Pity really.


Oh I see...so it looks like you're not getting them then? What a shame.  :Frown:

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## rcteem

> Oh I see...so it looks like you're not getting them then? What a shame.


He is getting 5 from me  :Big Grin:

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## Brit

> He is getting 5 from me


Oh there we go! Alright now I get it!

Sorry I'm so slow on the uptake guys. XD;

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## slimninj4

Bring back oldie.  Got a Vanzolinii.  Still trying to find the sex out but he/she is my first bite in PDF arena.  I have him only in a small nano right now but will need to upgrade soon when I can find a mate.  Mine is bold and if I keep the door open to long will jump out quickly. We learned that when my daughter opened it and the second one was lost and found a few hours later, sadly dead.  

I love the look and size of these tiny frogs.

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