# General Topics > Food, Feeders, Live, Frozen, Culturing, etc >  Phoenix worms passed whole (poop pic, but don't worry, it just looks like phoenix worms)

## Crystal

Proof that my toad can't digest phoenix worms.  Put him in a warm soak for a few min and this is what he left:   7 or 8 in here (the black ones were like that when they went in).  At least one was still partially alive.  All dead now, added to the others in the dead cup in my freezer.  And poking small hole in them to aide in digestion?  Well they die.  Or at least stop moving.  So, crickets and the last of the few purchased baby dubia til my breeders give birth, with a sparse few mealworms mixed in because I have them and those he can pass fine.  >:[  Disappointed, and grossed out that the ones I've been finding in his substrate probably journeyed thru his system already and I fed them to him again.  Basically, I unknowingly made him eat sh*t.  I'm sorry Banjo.  I wish I had dusted them with calcium or vitamins so at least he'd have gotten something from it.  Might be a good idea for a toad or other critter who can't digest these?  <sigh>  Had high hopes for these.

----------


## Patsy

Thanks for posting this. I have whites tree frogs and I've been debating wether or not to feed them the small phoenix worms that I feed my beardie. 

Do you think they passed right through because they were small?

----------


## Crystal

i'd say give it a shot, since you already have them.  maybe give them just a few and watch them eat them.  if they don't eat them all at once, take bowl away and if you find any in there later, you know they have the same problem as my toad.  if you find nothing, then it's a green light!  they're a nutritious feeder, if they stay food and not adventurers taking a sight-seeing trip through digestive tracts.

----------


## Crystal

gah!  more worm poop today.  this time in his regular water bowl, which was good.  was a surprise tho.    THIRTEEN, i counted this time.  and I haven't given him any since I found them in his warm water soak.  so... anyone want my remaining phoenix worms?  i know i don't.

----------


## Crystal

> Do you think they passed right through because they were small?


sorry didn't notice that last question..  these were labeled the large ones.  but they really aren't that large.  if your beardie (love those guys) can successfully eat the smalls you have, no reason the tree frogs should have an issue, if they can digest them fine.  many or most frogs and toads can.  i just hope nothing is seriously wrong with my little guy.

----------


## Gail

If you're going to feed these worms, poke them with a pin first so they die quicker.  I had the same issue with them not only coming thru whole, but still alive.

----------


## Patsy

> i'd say give it a shot, since you already have them.  maybe give them just a few and watch them eat them.  if they don't eat them all at once, take bowl away and if you find any in there later, you know they have the same problem as my toad.  if you find nothing, then it's a green light!  they're a nutritious feeder, if they stay food and not adventurers taking a sight-seeing trip through digestive tracts.


I'm actually now forced to feed them to my frogs because we are having the worst cold snap we've had in a long time. I'm afraid to order my normal crickets online because they might all be dead and our pet stores are having problems getting shipments in that are alive. I found some medium size ones I'm going to try those out on the frogs.

----------


## Gail

What about nightcrawlers from Walmart or bait shop?

----------


## Patsy

I tried that before and they spit them out like it was broccoli! So I'm hoping they like the phoenix worms. I was able to get some crickets so I think we will be okay until next week if I just modify everyones feeding schedules.

----------


## Crystal

> If you're going to feed these worms, poke them with a pin first so they die quicker.  I had the same issue with them not only coming thru whole, but still alive.


i tried that and they seemed to die right away.  or at least stopped moving.  i was glad to see that none of the 13 he passed on his own were alive.  but then, i don't know when he went to water bowl (bathroom).  i used a thumbtack, cuz that's what i had handy.  probably too large, maybe a sewing needle would work better.  nevertheless, unless i dust them with vitamins, i'm not bothering with these any more.  hoping the pet store has crickets today.

----------


## Crystal

> I tried that before and they spit them out like it was broccoli! So I'm hoping they like the phoenix worms. I was able to get some crickets so I think we will be okay until next week if I just modify everyones feeding schedules.


haha, i love broccoli.  i've never seen my toad spit anything out ever, but he's a toad, and i hear they'll eat anything.  one of the convenience store near my house sells bait.  i bought their mealworms a while back but they were bigger than Banjo so I set them free in my garden (before the early frost that destroyed all my hard work too soon).  i'll probably try their nightcrawlers.  i think it's crazy how large chain pet stores can't get cricket deliveries that are alive.  heat the dang truck!  soon after the hurricane, they were out for a while, but that at least makes sense.  i hate that they sell ones in those plastic containers and they're half dead.  how can you put that on the shelf??  i like to buy them loose, and hoping petco has some smalls.  i'd call 1st but i have to go by there later anyway. good luck with the phoenix worms and your frogs.  at least if they don't like them, they won't go to waste.  (i love beardies, wish i had the set-up for one.)

----------


## Patsy

My poor Shrek tried a nightcrawler once and it was so slimy he couldn't get it out of the bowl and walked away with his head down with a defeated look on his face, I felt so sorry for him. I tried the phoenix/caci-worms the other night, they seemed to eat them okay, don't see them becoming a favorite of theirs. They are about the size of wax worms so they get chomped pretty good. I checked their poop yesterday and there was nothing in it but I'm going to keep checking it. My beardie ate a lot of the small ones on Friday and I found one in his poop but I think it was dead. 

I went to another Petco last night and they had none. I like the small ones, the larger ones are too big, plus they creep me out. I counted this morning and I have about 30 left enough to ration out until Tuesday. The weather is supposed to be in the 50-60 range Monday and Tuesday so I'm going to overnight 1000! My Petco guy said that sometimes their shipment comes with heat packs and sometimes it doesn't. Either way they are guaranteed so they will always get free replacements along with their next order.

----------


## Patsy

Oh yeah, and those "cricket to go" packs are a joke! I don't know how they can even sell those. You also have to check the worms too, I always dig through the bowls to make sure that they are all still alive.

----------


## Crystal

aww, poor shrek.  i did get crickets at petco yesterday.  they had the to-go cups and they all looked fresh and alive, with that green blob looking brand new.  the "smalls" looked too small, and the "mediums" just right, but instead, i got a girl to scoop me out 50 in a bag.  some are real small, but i think she gave me way more than 50.  they must've just gotten delivery in or something.  also got a backing for his tank as they were on clearance.  but i got the wrong size, oops.  i can cut it down and finally get rid of the forest scene my bf printed out for him that is pretty mangled now.  glad your crickets are guaranteed.  
i still have a cup of phoenix worms, and the only thing i can think to do with them besides freezing them and killing them (the thought makes me sad somehow), is dust them with vitamin powder, and that way they'd be a vehicle for some kind of nutrition, even if they themselves are a waste.  if he's not digesting them in such a great number, then i don't see how he's getting anything out of them.  from the pics, you can tell they're obviously not causing any blockages, so i'll probably give it a try.

----------


## Patsy

Sorry to be gross but someone left me a present in the last 1 1/2 hours. I think it might have been Shrek because he's been more subdued than normal. I'm really surprised because I think the last time they got worms was Saturday or Sunday, so it took a whole 4-5 days to pass. As you will see from the photo, one came out whole but dead the other two were just shells.

----------


## Crystal

ewwwww, jk, i've seen worse.  just the other day actually.  a warm bath in deli cup produced 12 or 13 more worms, some partially digested, and at least two alive.  i'd dusted them in reptivite thinking it may be a way not to waste them, but never again.  i didn't take a pic, just froze the whole mess and the rest of them.  i hadn't fed him worms in days either.  i can't believe i thought the ones i'd find in his dirt were escapees.  it obviously didn't add up. <<shudder>>

seems like whoever it was that left you a present got something from them, but maybe they're just not good for frogs?  it's too bad.  and tree frogs need warmth right?  i was thinking maybe it wasn't warm enough for Banjo's tummy, but doesn't seem like that matters much here.  

i'll just keep calcium dusting the food he can digest.  and oh, i remembered why i hate crickets.  they don't respect me.  hopping around and hiding, ignoring the boundaries of food dish.  Can't wait til my dubia have their babies.  some of the ladies are looking mighty plump!

----------


## Patsy

I found this on another forum when I searched for undigested Phoenix worms in stool:

_"Passing undigested PWs is an occurrence that happens occasionally. It's relatively rare but is seen more often in amphibians because they tend to not chew their food and they have very short digestive systems. Frog hobbyists and breeders tell us that they see this sometimes with other feeders. They suggest "pinning" the prey (pierce with a needle before serving) to allow digestive juices to easily penetrate which ensures complete digestion. 

Breeders tell us that they do not view this as a problem--they compare it to humans finding undigested kernels of corn in the toilet bowl. The many reports of enhanced growth and improved health indicates that animals being fed PWs benefit from the superior nutrition the worms provide._

___________________
Craig Sheppard, Ph.D.
President, Insect Science Resource
Professor Emeritus, UGA
www.phoenixworm.com"_


As long as my super friends are acting normal, I'm not going to worry about it. Someone left me some more worm poop today so hopefully they are all done!

----------

