# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  trouble with 4 month old pacman frog, sticking legs out stiff

## Stolzieren

I have about a 4 month old albino pacman frog, and he has been doing very well up until about 2 weeks ago. he stopped eating by himself, so I was gently assisting him by opening his mouth and placing the dubia roach inside, and then he'd swallow it on his own. I would only feed him about one bug a day like this, sometimes maybe two.

just a couple days ago I dug him up from the substrate and he was very stiff, with his legs out as if he was paralyzed and he wasn't moving. I gently touched his sides and rubbed him a bit and he did wake up and return his legs to normal. my first thought was that maybe he could be impacted, so I started to give him slightly warm soaks daily. yesterday, he made a pretty decent sized poop in his enclosure, and was acting a lot better in terms of behavior, he was moving about more and no more stiffness.

but then today I dug him up as usual for feeding time and he was even stiffer than before, his legs were stuck straight out like he couldn't moved them and his eyes were shut. I honestly thought he was dead and I was about to cry. I gently spritzed him with water and he woke back up again and eventually put his legs back to normal.

I don't think this is normal behavior and I'm getting very worried for him, any input is helpful but I honestly think I might need to take him to a vet. I just wanted to get some opinions on it first.

*info about his enclosure:*
temps are 70-80 F 
humidity is around 60-70%, I mist him twice a day, one morning one night
he's got a water dish though he doesn't seem to use it very often, I don't use tap water AT ALL for him
substrate is eco earth, there's a good few inches for him to bury in
I have some spaghnum moss in the enclosure to help keep humidity, but I don't feed him in the enclosure so I don't think he's eaten any moss
I received him from a breeder in Florida named Alfredo, I looked up things about him and nobody seemed to have any complaints from what I saw

*edit:*
I don't know if it's relevant at all but I do have two american toads in my home as well. I've had them for years now

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## Jason

Hey. Your conditions seem great. I would make sure to keep the frog in the high 70s to low 80s during the day. Make sure the heat source provides adequate, usable heat, such as downwards by a heat lamp or ceramic. I used a heat mat on the wall as recommend by some for a while but realised this did not work well. Use a digital thermometer to measure temps, analogue are not the best. It sounds to me like maybe the frog has tried to aestivate. Along with the stiff posture, was there was any signs of cocooning/dried skin? Although the humidity of 60-70% should be fine for cranwell's horned frogs, I've found several hygrometers to fail after a short period of time. A good test is to make sure the substrate is moist, not dry and not wet. What size of tank and how often do you change substrate? I personally would not take to a vet unless there is one that has a good knowledge or reference on amphibians. The best thing to do is fine a good source of info on the species (I've found AVS chacoan horned frogs by Philippe de Vosjoli to be the best reference) follow by the book to make sure conditions are correct

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monster

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## Cory

Hi, what brand of vitamins are you using and what is your dusting schedule? it sounds almost like he could have a bad case of MBD or it could be some kind of neurological problem which I don't think is very common but the odd frog does end up having them. I really think you may want to find a vet, it doesn't sound good to me. Also what do use for water if you don't use tap water?

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Heatheranne, jasonm96

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## Jason

I don't think MBD would cause problems when young just yet but show up with older frogs fed  or kept on improper diets or conditions. I would dust every feed with young frogs though, with a high qualitiy supplement such as Repashy.  Water could be a factor but if the OP has maintained toads then I'd imagine he or she would know the standard water needed for amphibians

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## Cory

If the op has had his frog for 4 months and hasn't being giving proper calcium the signs would be starting to show, the first few months are the most crucial point of there life for the calcium because all the bones are growing and strengthening and because they have such a fast growth rate also. And the frog would actually be older then 4 months because you have to consider the time its spent with the breeder. Not saying this is what the problem is because they can be doing it all right because it was never mentioned.

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Heatheranne

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## Jason

That's definitely true, especially for horned frogs but I would expect obvious symptoms to show at a later age when the damage is done but I'm not 100% sure on this. If I were breeding them I would let them eat their siblings, may sound bad but I'd imagine this would happen in the wild and would provide a very good source of calcium and D3

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## Stolzieren

first of all thank you everyone for replying! I also went out and got a new water dish and he has actually been sitting in it for some time now, when he NEVER used to soak in it before. I always just made sure to spritz him with the spray bottle or to place him in the bowl himself. but he actually got into the bowl for the first time and soaked today! anyway I'll try to answer everything I was asked, please let me know if I forgot to reply to a question that was asked! 

@monster
I use Repashy Calcium Plus for dusting, and I usually dust every few feedings, but after reading the replies it's apparent I need to be doing that more! so I will definitely up the dusting from now on. and yes I do say ABOUT 4 months because he did spend some time with the breeder as well before being shipped to me. but I've had him now for about 4 months.

also, for water for my amphibians I use bottled water only! 

@jasonm96
I'm wondering if the humidity meter has gone bad because it doesn't move much anymore. I think I will get a new one asap. I usually keep the substrate damp, but not totally flooded of course. 

I use digital thermometers for all of my herps. the analogue ones just. really don't give accurate readings in my experience and the experience of many others I've read.

his skin does get a bit dry, though I thought that was because he wasn't soaking adequately. as I mentioned at the beginning, I changed water bowls and he's been soaking for awhile now so hopefully the dry skin will improve, unless you do think it would have to do with him trying to aestivate.

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## Jason

No problem :Smile:  Calcium plus is the best IMO, I use it for all my animals. You have to use it at every feed though, it's been designed to provide more balanced calcium and vitamins than other supplements so it can be used this way. Bottled water is also very good. If you need to monitor it so far I've found the Zoo Med hygrometers to be good and a great thing about them is you can attach them and take them off for cleaning, then re-attach wit velcro but as long as the substrate is kept nice and moist they're probably not that important for these frogs. They shouldn't need to soak too much but at night they may use a water dish, especially if they're trying to squeeze one out.

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## Cory

Hey again ya I would up the dusting but if hes getting calcium mbd shouldn't be the case. IMO Repashy calcium is one of the best if not the best. It could be something neurological almost by the sounds of it. Does his back legs ever spasm or do they just stay stiff. And with something like this again you may want to bring him to a vet for a checkup. oh and yes the zoo med ones are good or I know a lot of people use indoor 2/1's from like walmart or home depot. The honey well one is a good brand. You can put the probe in one end them sit the actual little box on the cold side and it gives you the temp and humidity of both ends. Im using one in my Bearded dragon tank and it works great.

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## Stolzieren

@jasonm96
ah I see, thank you very much! I was not dusting as much as I should've been and I feel really bad, I thought I was doing everything right but after reading other threads the symptoms seem to sound a lot like MBD. since he hasn't been eating I'm thinking I'm going to buy some liquid calcium, would this be a good idea? he's still plenty fat but he's just not interested in eating. I fed him a dusted cricket a bit ago, he tried to slap it out of his mouth but he did eat it...

@monster
I THINK they did spasm the first time he did this which was a couple days ago. they didn't spasm today but just were almost straight out and STIFF. and yes I do think I should take him to a herp vet, the vet I take my beardie to though, I don't know if he's good with frogs or not. I will have to do some research and look into the nearest frog vet. but I do have a strong feeling it's the calcium deficiency because the symptoms match and I hadn't been dusting as much as I should've been... (even though I thought I was, I'm still to blame because I should have researched more)

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## Jason

Don't feel bad, you have a positive attitude about the care of your frog and that is great. Even as an adult use calcium plus at every feed, I especially love this supplement because you can do this, without having to remember set days on when to dust with what supplement. Make sure to vary the diet as much as possible, so when big enough feed earthworms, nightcrawlers, superworms, pink mice, roaches but crickets can be stable. Feeder fish will be good to but make sure that they are healthy and from a good source. Gut load food as well. I use carrots, greens and apples on every other day and once per week offer a commercial diet. Repashy offer something called Rescue cal which may be of use but probably best used under a reptile vets recommendations. Apart from the diet I think the most important part of their care is offering the right temperatures. What are you using for this?

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## Stolzieren

@jasonm96 
I actually was not aware that pacmans needed a heat source, the caresheets I read did not say so ;_; it seems I was very misinformed, I feel bad that my poor frog had to suffer because of me not knowing any better. but I am determined to make this right.

 it stays 70-80 in my room all the time even at night, that's just how I like it even though everyone thinks it's too hot when they come in my room. should I get a CHE to put over the tank? he is albino so I assume low light would be best. 

and I do plan to vary his diet when he gets older! though I do have a question, can I use the worms from fishing bait shops? I have heard mixed things on this, I have heard the worms that bait shops sell have added things to them therefore they're not safe for herps. but I've heard others say they are fine, so I'm unsure.

also, if it helps any, here is a picture of him from a couple weeks ago.

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## Jason

Caresheets can be bad, that book I recommend is what is consider and said many times to be the horned frog bible  :Wink:  The conflicting information on the web can be confusing and stressful. 

That's all that matters and I wish more people had this way of thinking. I met someone today who had a completely wrong attitude to keeping reptiles and amphibians, so it is refreshing to talk to someone positive. 

You want around 78-84 degress during the day and no lower than 70s at night. A ceramic might be the best choice of heating because it supplies a nice radiant heat source which is natural to the frog. In a ten gallon (usually used for babies or males) a 40w should probably do but these heaters are best connected to a pulse-proportional thermostat because they get very hot. I've found them to be very drying. You could use a red bulb, around 40w aswell or 25w if little heat is needed. I use the Zoo Med nightlight red bulbs. I've found some animals to be fine with them on 24/7 but some will hide and so may be best used only for daytime if the animal seems stressed. Because little heat is needed a heat mat may be fine but although others will disagree with me, I think they work best underneath, connected to a thermostat with the probe under the substrate so the glass doesn't get too hot. Because these frogs are burrowers some are against this method but others have used it with success, heat from above is generally considered better.

Honestly, I'm not really sure. I can easily get them from the pet shop so haven't needed to go to a fish bait store. If unsure it may be best to get them from a pet store but wait and see what others say, maybe they can shed light. 

I think your frog looks perfectly healthy just now

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## Cory

Don't put anything to bright if you use a light. A little 40 watt CHE may work to help get you up a couple degrees. Hes not very big, if everything else is ok husbandry wise and if its not MBD I think you may have just got a frog that got the bad end of gene  pool. Its hard to say because he doesn't look bad in this picture. I take it he is the lime green albino from the pictures?

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## Cory

I didn't mention a lot about heating because  I knew Jason cover the part about lights. L.O.L If your in the states I think your Walmarts sell the nightcrawlers and so does petsmart. Just don't get dyed ones and you can tell which ones are dyed because they actually glow.

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## Stolzieren

@jasonm96
I do know how you feel about attitude, I run a blog about my bearded dragon and some people just seem to assume whatever they have heard is the absolute correct way which results in their lizard becoming sick due to loose substrate, improper care and so on. I always try to keep an open mind and if someone brings something up to me I look into it just to be sure. I just hope I can set things right so that my frog can have a happy life from now on. 

he is in a 10 gallon atm, I'd like to go with a UTH + thermostat if possible, that's what I'm experienced with because my geckos and the two toads all have UTHs. the geckos both have them on the bottom since they need belly heat for digestion, but the toads is on the side. so why are some people against the frogs' UTH being on the bottom? because it will get too hot? with the thermostat it will switch off if it even gets a couple degrees hotter than what you set it as, so I would think it'd be fine wouldn't it?

I will look into it about the worms, I can't purchase earthworms or nightcrawlers at the pet store, only supers and crickets. I buy dubia roaches online and am starting a colony of them to reduce how often I need to buy them. I imagine I can just buy worms online as well.

here is another photo of him, this was taken about a week ago and he still looks quite good, so I'm hoping I caught this early and can set it right

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## Stolzieren

@monster
whoops, sorry I didn't see your post before I replied to jason
ah ok, so walmart worms are safe as long as they don't glow?

I think I will get him a UTH with thermostat if that would be okay. he doesn't seem too bothered by light but he IS an albino and I know they can be sensitive so if I can't go with the UTH I'll do the CHE 40 watt. 

I am honestly not sure if he's a lime green, they just told me he's an albino (I had originally ordered a red/strawberry whatever they call the color, but the pet shop went ahead and got the albino since they were out of red pacs, and I took him happily since I thought he was beautiful anyway)

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## Cory

Its hard to say whats wrong because out of all honesty IMO that little bugger looks fine in that picture. My big female is the exact same kind and this picture makes me wish I could shrink her back to a baby. Shes 4.5 inches now. People say not to put the uth on the bottom because in the wild they burrow during the day to escape the hot sun and daytime predators and to absorb the moisture in the ground. The argument is we should try and keep things as natural to them as possible. As I always say when you go to a beach or somewhere there is sand or soil in the summer the further you dig down the cooler it will become not warmer. And they come out at night because the temps drop. I personally wouldn't put one on the bottom of mine but that's just my opinion, if someone else chooses to I know that it is recommended in some books and others have done it so im not going to be the guy sending out the UTH lynch mob. L.O.L Everybody has there own preference and what works for some may not work for others. And again that guys to cute. Im editing, ya if he had those greens the whole time he is the lime albino, they tend to lose the green when they get older but they form some really nice oranges on there back and head. And ya they inject the worms so they are easier for the fish to see in the dark waters.

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## Jason

I think everyone should be open-minded. I have a bearded dragon, I think substrate should be what the animals live upon in the wild, so sandy soil. I've seen something like this now brought out by Pro Rep, I'm going to try it. 

Some people are against it because the fear of burning the frogs or going against the natural burrowing behavior. IMO this can be sorted by a thermostat, like you said, with the probe under the substrate and making sure the mat covers only a third of the floor so the frog can burrow in the unheated place. Cory is right though. One thing to consider is heat mats are mostly contact heaters so don't warm the ambient air much and instead heat whatever lies on top of it, great for snakes and some geckos. So for tree frogs they work well on the side but not so much for terrestrial frogs, so I would put it on the bottom or heat from above with a lamp. I have found incandescent bulbs to be the best source of heat and red bulbs will probably be best for an abino. Because your room temperature isn't cold, a low wattage bulb would probably do and so wouldn't cause too much drying. Just do what you feel is right. The frog looks good to be and so you probably have caught it early, fingers crossed

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## Stolzieren

@monster
yeah I do believe he's had the greens on his sides since I got him! I don't mind what color he ends up being, I just want him to be alright, he's my lil buddy after all! I'm not sure. maybe I will get the CHE 40 watt. I was just worried it would make a 10 gallon TOO hot because of such a small area. 

@jasonm96 
I think I will get the CHE, we have one of those red night light bulbs but I don't honestly like those, my beardie had one and she didn't seem to sleep very well, and when we changed it she started sleeping good. or maybe it was totally unrelated, who knows. and then again frogs and lizards are very different so maybe it wouldn't affect a frog the same way.

but how would I get the CHE working with a thermostat? I've never even used a CHE so I'm pretty nervous about it, that's why I'm inclined to go with the UTH but it does seem better to have more of an ambient air for my frog.

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## Jason

That's true, some of my animals have been fine with it and others have not. I think you should try the red bulb, you won't need it on at night unless temps drop below 70f. I'm just thinking that ceramics get really hot and so if you have a normal 10 gallon glass tank with a screen cover this can make maintenance difficult and dangerous, having to move it to get in. For controlling a ceramic or bulb you plug the dome or wire fixture into the thermostat then probe the probe where you wanna control temps and fiddle about with it to achieve the right temp gradient. If 24 heat is needed try the red bulb first and see how the animal reacts to it, if doesn't like it then the mat will be the better choice

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## Stolzieren

@jasonm96 
ok! thank you (and monster) for the help, I appreciate it a lot and I'll try to update the topic with how ciopinno is doing, I'm going to dust every day from now on and hopefully he starts to feel better... I'm just trying to keep a positive outlook now and hope for the best. I do think that I've caught it early though so hopefully it can be fixed with the proper dusting

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## Jason

No problem  :Smile:  I think everything should be good, it's when it's far gone that it becomes more complicated and you'd be able to tell at that stage by skeletal problems, which your frog doesn't seem to have

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## Stolzieren

so I got the liquid calcium and I've been giving him soaks (measuring it out correctly and everything) and he's been doing a TON better. no more sticking legs out stiff, no more trembling or struggling to move. no more acting dead. he's been back to how he regularly acts which is very good! 

BUT the problem is. he still won't eat by himself... I've been assisting him by opening his mouth gently and placing the bug in, and then he'll swallow it on his own. but lately he's been getting upset and trying to spit it back out. which I don't blame him, I imagine it stresses him quite a bit to have me shove food in his mouth, but I'm just worried that he's not eating... should I stop feeding him and just do calcium soaks and see if he comes around? that way he'd still be getting his calcium and all and then maybe he'd come around to food...

it's just that these frogs are normally the quickest to take food and he's not the least bit interested. I've tried crickets, phoenix worms, dubia roaches... I don't want to do mealworms cause of their chitin shell and he's so little that I feel it could block him up. 

I've also tried feeding him inside the enclosure with tongs, leaving bugs in a bowl in the enclosure over night, taking out and placing him in a bowl with the bugs (which is what I usually do to ensure he doesn't eat any moss or substrate) and I've tried feeding him out of the enclosure with tongs too. just not interested at all and it worries me.

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## Cory

Hi, glad to hear hes doing abit better. Ya if you have been able to force him to eat something for ya in the past couple days you may want to let him just relax, force feeding is very stressfull on them and if hes sick with something already the added stress is just going to make him worse. Stress lowers there immune system making them more accessible to what ever is making them ill or even new illnesses. IMO I would try and find a herp vet so you can get him looked at, and in the mean time if he is doing better from the stiffening legs and stuff and its just his appetite im thinking maybe some Repti-Boost may give him a shot of energy and help him get that desire to eat back. Or you can try a pedylite bath this helps with energy also I just don't kinow if its as good as repti-boost or a similar product. If you go the pedylite way you want it to be non flavoured and mix 1 oz of pedylite to every 10 oz of water. But again IMO I think it may time for a trip to the vet.

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Heatheranne

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## Heather

So, I've read through most of the posts, but somewhat quickly and did not memorize all of the data. 

I would definitely said the same... Low blood calcium levels. Twitching, tremors, inability to move with coordination, progressing to seizures and paralysis.  What is not often mentioned is that low calcium affects all muscle function, including smooth muscle. When smooth muscle function is limited, peristalsis in the gut slows down, thereby decreasing digestion, and appetite.  

Proper heat and humidity levels will also affect digestion.  Proper heat aides in digestion. Hypothermia will decrease the rate of digestion and the food lingers longer in the belly, causing bloating.  The best temps for Pacman frogs are up around 80'F during the day and no less than mid to upper 70's at night.  This can be accomplished with heat lamps and heat pads. Pads should never be placed on the glass bottoms, due to the risk of burns.  Place heat pads on side walls. My pacs have heated corners... Heat pads on two walls in one corner.  


Low humidity can lead to dehydration and deceased internal fluid, thereby making food more solid and difficult to lubricate or pass.  Humidity should be around 75-80%, with moist substrate, but not muddy wet.  A shallow water bowl of fresh water should be provided and water should be changed daily. Pacs will soak and absorb (drink) as needed. I soak my pacs twice a week no matter what, just after a meal.  They will learn to enjoy their soaks. Water should be lukewarm at 80'F.  Water should be dechlorinated.  Chlorine, chloramine, and heavy metals will cause toxicity and need to be reversed/neutralized.  Some bottled water contains chlorine or chloramines. Distilled water is okay for misting but should never be used to moisten substrates or for soaking. Distilled water has no minerals, and is hypotonic, and can actually pull electrolytes out through the frogs skin, leading to deficiencies. Dechlorinated tap water has minerals needed for balance.  Repashy with calcium plus is a great vitamin and provides necessary vitamin and mineral needs.  It is recommended to use a calcium with vitamin D3 supplement I various days as well.  I use Repashy 2x/week on young pacs, and Repcal calcium/vita D3 2-3x/week, but not on the same days as the Repashy.  My adults eat less often and I rotate back and forth. 

Another reason for lack of appetite can be intestinal parasites.  They cause inflammation of the intestines, bloating, and discomfort.  The symptoms are lack of appetite, bloating, lethargy, and runny stools.  Feces testing can be done to determine the parasite. Most parasites can be treated by a vet with Panacur, Metronidizole, or Ivermectin. Proper dosing is done by weight.

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## Heather

Good luck! 

My suggestions are to get your tank settings as close to perfect as possible, keep up on the supplements, and have a feces test done. Walmart sells night crawlers which can be cut to size. Be sure they have no dyes or scents added.

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## Heather

Oh, forgot to mention...
Calcium is not well absorbed without vitamin D3. Be sure your calcium has it  :Wink: .

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## Jason

Heather, heat pads will not burn frogs when used in conjunction with a thermostat like they should be. Only heat pads that are unstatted or set at the wrong temp will, this will apply to them being used on the wall as well. Also proper monitoring of temps is essential, which should be done by a digital thermometer directly ontop of the mat and not an analogue thermometer. Also, if conditions are kept dirty and the frog stays on the mat the frog may develop an infection that might look like a burn (though I've never seen this) frequently cleaning out the burrow and changing substrate as needed will prevent this. I just wanted to clear that up because keepers that use them correctly shouldn't worry about their frogs being burned. That being said, above heat sources are better because it's more natural and they warm the ambient air temperature, so are best for cold houses.

You don't need to use calcium plus with a different supplement for D3 btw, it has it in it  :Wink:  The normal one has medium levels, which I the one I use and there's also a high and low one too.

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## Heather

Here is a good article about electrolytes and minerals. It is difficult to find articles pertaining to only amphibians. This article is human based, but describes each function coordinated by different electrolytes and minerals.  All living animals need varying amounts of such for bodily functions.  Levels of necessity vary per species and size. This article is listed only to help understand the needs and their functions in general. 

Enjoy the reading  :Smile: . 

Keep in mind, some electrolytes can pass through porous membranes such as blood vessels, cell walls, and skin. Level vary on cell types and skin types.  Therefore in amphibians, electrolytes are taken in via diet, and absorbed through their skin. Frogs are highly absorptive. Some minerals are insoluble in fluids and will not "absorb" through osmosis or soaking. They need to be ingested. Levels of absorption are also variant with water levels. Some electrolytes "follow" water. The goal is an overall proper balance. 

 :Wink: 

http://www.builtlean.com/2012/11/28/electrolytes/

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## Heather

> Heather, heat pads will not burn frogs when used in conjunction with a thermostat like they should be. Only heat pads that are unstatted or set at the wrong temp will, this will apply to them being used on the wall as well. Also proper monitoring of temps is essential, which should be done by a digital thermometer directly ontop of the mat and not an analogue thermometer. Also, if conditions are kept dirty and the frog stays on the mat the frog may develop an infection that might look like a burn (though I've never seen this) frequently cleaning out the burrow and changing substrate as needed will prevent this. I just wanted to clear that up because keepers that use them correctly shouldn't worry about their frogs being burned. That being said, above heat sources are better because it's more natural and they warm the ambient air temperature, so are best for cold houses.
> 
> You don't need to use calcium plus with a different supplement for D3 btw, it has it in it  The normal one has medium levels, which I the one I use and there's also a high and low one too.


If your frog has symptoms of tetany than he needs more calcium.  Whether it be your dusting schedule or supplement choice... Tetany is an absolute sign of deficiency. 

True, if your vitamin had calcium and vitamin D3 and your frog shows no signs of deficiency and is in good health, no excess calcium is needed.  However, I have seen over the years several frogs with other deficiencies when not using a vitamin supplement in coordination with calcium/vita D3.

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## Stolzieren

thank you everyone for the help! I will be getting a heat pad very soon (with thermostat of course) and I will stick it on the side in one of the corners of the tank like my toad tank is. I am going to leave him be for the next few days and not try to feed him by force, but I will keep up the calcium soaks so he gets proper calcium.

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## Stolzieren

btw I should only need the small UTH right?

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## Heather

How much do you need to increase the temp? 
Some have thermostats, many do not. If it does, any size that fits the area and can be adjusted to the temp you need is fine. If not, read the instructions to see about how much each pad will raise the temp and choose which will be best for your needs. We hear our whole frog room to 75'F and add the small pads.

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## Jason

You want one that will cover one third and up to half of the length of the tank. Go for carbon cloth mats, not printed as these are safer. I think in your country you can get ones under the brand cobra, these are cloth. Keep in mind if your room isn't already heated, a heat mat on the wall may not supply enough heat. Thermostats are bought separate but some mats have cut offs, though a thermostat should always be used anyway.

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## Cory

I use heatmatts on my tanks and as Jason stated and I will agree that when on the side they don't raise the temp to half there potential. The trick I learned and it works like a charm is you want to build a 3 sided wall around the tank to help hold the heat in so it doesn't just go up into the air. So you would build a wall as high as the tank around the back and 2 sides, it almost acts the same as if it was on the bottom in between a table and the tank. I keep my frog room in the winter at 72f and doing it this way im able to get the 82f. If your having a hard time pictureing what I mean let me know and I will put a picture up a little later.

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Heatheranne, jasonm96

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## Jason

You can also put a polyesterne sheet on the back of the mat, it directs the heat back in to the tank. My concern is that in order to raise the temp a lot the mat would have to get very hot, so the frog could get burned by the side glass heated. When used below this is not a problem because the floor bottom glass can be controlled to the desired temp. Some people may turn the thermostat high to get the surface temps warm but this isn't a necessary as the frog will burrow and get heated on the glass which will sit at the temperature set but it can also select an area away from the mat if needed. What is it you mean cory, have you got 3 mats?

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## Cory

No, the 3 walls holds the heat and lets it travel around all 3 sides so its actually heating the glass on all sides. I leave about a half inch opening at each end so the air flow can go in one side and escape from the other so it pushes the warm air around the tank. My suggestion to anyone if they needed 3 matts would be save yourself the money and find a different way to heat your tank because this way obviously isn't working. Im editing because I didn't really answer you question, the 3 walls are made out of that cheap thin particle board stuff that is put into dresser drawers as the bottom. Its really easy to cut holes and stuff into for wires and such to that need to go through it.

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jasonm96

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## Thevacantface

First impressions, just based on my experience with my littlest pacman having some muscle spasms at one point, is that your frogs mineral balance is or was off.  Personally I had been soaking my frogs probably too often and they were leaching out, and the little guy showed symptoms first.  Calcium and vitamin dustings per the care sheet in the sticky thread, and keeping the soil moist but not wet and a fresh bowl for them to use at their discretion seems to do pretty well for them.  It's similar to muscle cramps in humans, usually means your potassium is too low, something he needs is probably too low.

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Heatheranne

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## Stolzieren

another update on him, he's doing great in the activity department (as far as pacmans go anyway) 
but he's STILL not eating on his own. I'm getting pretty worried, so I think I may take him to a reptile vet sometime soon...

I've got the heat mat on his tank now, hooked up to the thermostat, and I read the temps with my temp gun and they're staying around 80-82, he's had the heat mat for less than a week I suppose so maybe he just needs more time? I don't know, but I'm getting worried for him

I put the bugs in and it's like he doesn't even notice. I'm becoming paranoid he's somehow blind because he doesn't notice them at ALL

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## Cory

Sorry to hear hes still not eating for you, and I would have to say that I would for sure make an apt with a vet. There is only so much we can do over the internet when it comes diagnosing the problem and I think its at the point now were your going to need a vet to run some tests and by the sounds of things he is going to need some real meds or antibiotics. The vet is able to give proper doses of certain meds to that go by weight and this is very important, if given to much it could make things worse or give to little and it just keeps the problem at bay till the meds are gone and then hes back to same old problems a week down the road.

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## Stolzieren

yes... I do believe it's time. I was hoping this was an issue that would resolve once I got the proper enclosure things down, but it seems there is something else going on, so I will be talking with my mom about taking him to a herp vet soon. the only problem is it's going to be hours away, but he's worth it so I'm going to do my best

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