# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Beginner Discussion >  Pet poison dart frogs

## FrogFreak

Can you safely handle poison dart frogs in captivity. I did read that the frogs got their poison from ants that ate poisonous things in the wild.

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## Jake

Yes, you can safely handle them if it is necessary.  They don't like it.  The only thing you should worry about is if you have any open sores on your hands.  Captive dart frogs are not nearly as toxic as wild ones.

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## Alex Shepack

Yeah.  Like Jake said, handling should be kept to a minimum with Darts. You are correct though, Darts derive their toxins from alkaloids in their diets.  In the wild they would be eating things like ants and beetles that contain these alkaloids, thereby allowing them to produce the toxins.  Since these food items are often lacking in captivity they usually lose toxins.  i believe it has been found though that WC individuals can retain their toxins for many years after introduction into captivity, although their toxicity will decrease.

Alex

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## nx2ured

Even though they are not toxic in captivity, why in the world would you want to handle them? It only stresses them out.

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## jody

thats the idea I had, that the frogs made the toxins out of the bugs they ate. Manufactured their own potent thing from toxic compouns in their food. rather than reusing poison made by the bugs.

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## Kurt

> thats the idea I had, that the frogs made the toxins out of the bugs they ate. Manufactured their own potent thing from toxic compouns in their food.


That's not true for all frogs. Some are toxic period. Bufonids come to mind.

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## Ron

Actually, ALL amphibians could be considered toxic.  Given their damp skin, it's a perfect breeding ground for bacteria, etc...so they all excrete some level of toxicity as a defense, regardless of what species.  Can you handle Dendrobatids in captivity?  Yes, and the vast majority of them could be handled in the wild as well.  However, my worry would be less about what harm could come to the handler and more about what harm could come to the frog. 

But you're right: their toxins are sequestered from the insect they eat that contain toxins, such as oribatid mites, ants, etc. which obtained them through the plants that contained them.

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## Tom

Actually I think they now believe that they get the poison from beetles. And about the ground for breeding bacteria thing. I believe some frogs have skin secretions that actually fight bacteria and parasites. I believe white's do this.

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## Ron

> Actually I think they now believe that they get the poison from beetles.


That's interesting, Tom...I had not heard this. Do you have any references to studies or literature regarding beetles as a source?

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## Tom

I will try to find it.

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## John Clare

I have a vague recollection of reading a journal article that surveyed the arthropods in the habitat and found low levels of the the toxins in question in ants (and perhaps something else).  That's going back through my memory about 8 years though.

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## Tom

Melyrid beetles (Choresine): A putative source for the batrachotoxin alkaloids found in poison-dart frogs and toxic passerine birds â€” PNAS John what do you think about this? I think (didn't read the whole thing and most of it was over my head) it is mainly about _Phyllobates terribilis_

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## Ron

I will give that a read Tom, thanks.  I know they have done some studies that show Dendrobatids to be quite "plastic" in their ability to sequester toxins, and that the types of toxins found in the frogs are pretty reflective of the toxins found in the inverts and microinverts of the place.  For instance, frogs of species X in one valley tend to have alkaloids representative of the insects in that valley...and frogs of species X in a seperate valley tend to have alkaloids representative of that specific valley.  Given that inverts and microinverts are consuming the alkaloids from the plants of each valley, and the frogs are then consuming the inverts...it makes sense.  Makes one rather cautious about feeding field sweepings to certain species...

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## John Clare

That's because that species is the one that was used for poison darts.  It's dangerous to even touch wild caught _Phyllobates terribilis_.  On the other side of things, they're very tame captives (you'll see what I mean in the last 5 seconds of this video):

YouTube - Jumping Phyllobates terribilis "mint"

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## Tom

Hmm Ok did you read the article? I found it kinda interesting.

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## Ron

I did, and I definitely understand species of Phyllobates uptaking the alkaloids through different species of beetles.  But for many of the other Dendrobatid species, most of their diets (based upon gut contents) consist of ants and oribatid mites.  I don't have the references on hand, but the studies I'm referring to were with _O. pumilio_ I believe.

And I hope it doesn't seem as though I'm arguing...I'm not at all.  The possible ways and sources by which they can uptake and sequester alkaloids is pretty impressive.

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## Tom

I am just truly interested. This has interested me for a while.

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## John Clare

Very interesting care article with great background, including poisons, for _Phyllobates terribilis_: Dart Den - Care Sheet - General Poison Dart

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## Ron

I managed to find the study I referred to earlier regarding "plasticity" of frogs and their toxins: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...602828aa3581ee




> A total of 232 alkaloids, representing 21 structural classes were detected in skin extracts from the dendrobatid poison frog _Oophaga pumilio_, collected from 53 different populations from over 30 years of research. The highly toxic pumiliotoxins and allopumiliotoxins, along with 5,8-disubstitiuted and 5,6,8-trisubstituted indolizidines, all of which are proposed to be of dietary mite origin, were common constituents in most extracts. One decahydroquinoline (DHQ), previously shown be of ant origin, occurred in many extracts often as a major alkaloid, while other DHQs occurred rather infrequently. Histrionicotoxins, thought to be of ant origin, did not appear to possess a specific pattern of occurrence among the populations, but when present, were usually found as major components. Certain 3,5-disubstituted pyrrolizidines and indolizidines, known to be of ant origin, did occur in extracts, but infrequently. Alkaloid composition differed with regard to geographic location of frog populations, and for populations that were sampled two or more times during the 30-year period significant changes in alkaloid profiles sometimes occurred. The results of this study indicate that chemical defense in a dendrobatid poison frog is dependent on geographic location and habitat type, which presumably controls the abundance and nature of alkaloid-containing arthropods.

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## Tom

Ooh cool thanks John and Ron I have learned my something for today.

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## herpinjim

If dart frogs got their toxins solely from alkaloids you would be able to feed D auratus the same insects as D terribilis and they would be equally toxic.  I assume they process the toxins differently.  I have also talked to a couple people who have claimed to have had toxic reactions from captive terribilis.

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## Tom

They were probably wild caught. If wild caught they can keep there poison for a long time but the amount and the  potency decreases.

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## Ron

Different types of toxins in auratus and terribilis: I believe auratus contain pumilotixins and terribilis have histrionitoxins.  They're not the same thing.  Even in the wild you can pick up and handle the vast majority of poison dart frogs--out of the hundreds of different species, there are only three (in the Phyllobates genus) that are would be seriously harmful if handled (and you had a cut that allowed the toxins into your bloodstream, otherwise the particle size is too large to pass through skin).

I doubt the terribilis he handled were wild-caught.  They have not been collected and/or imported in years.

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## Kurt

I remember hearing that captive bred _P. terribilis_ were toxic.

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## Tom

Hmm interesting. Do you think they are as poisonous as in the wild?

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## Kurt

I don't really know.

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## Mike

Some captive bred terribilis: http://www.frognet.org/albums/mjm23-frogs/DSCN1999.mov

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## Kurt

The link appears to be out dated.

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## John Clare

Works fine for me.  Thanks for finding that Mike - I had seen it a while ago but couldn't track it down.

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## Mike

I was there when it was filmed, the person is still alive  :Smile:  .

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## herpinjim

The P terribilis that were being kept were captive bred.  The first person  I talked to mentioned a slight burning reaction on their hands after handling their frog.  I didn't know this person very well and just talked to him in passing.   The second person to mention a reaction from P terribilis to me is a curator at a aza accredited zoo. I would mention the name, but don't know if he has plans on publishing anything on it or not.  Ive personally have never kept P terribilis or even handled one.

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## Kurt

> Works fine for me.


Still not working for me, for some reason.

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## Mike

A paper published by John Daly in Science  (1980) showed that WC terribilis maintained toxicity after being in  captivity for several years but at the same time that F1's produced by  then in captivity were not toxic.  I don't have the reference on hand but will find it later.

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## Tom

Wait were those frogs attacking the persons fingers? I was under the assumption that darts were kind shy and not aggressive to large things.

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## John Clare

_Phyllobates terribilis_ and _P. bicolor_ are without doubt the most bold of all poison dart frogs.

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## Mike

> Wait were those frogs attacking the persons fingers? I was under the assumption that darts were kind shy and not aggressive to large things.


Well I wouldn't say attacking, more like they thought the fingers were food and tried to eat them  :Smile:  .  Some darts are shy while others are bolder.  But I would really classify any of them as aggressive to humans.

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## Purpleskull

That is actually kind of interesting. I think I asked something related to this in my intro. I guess CB are ok but stresses them out. Do all frogs get stressed?

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## Kurt

They all can become stressed and the degree of stress will depend on the species and the situation.

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## Alpha Pro Breeders

Terribilis are the most aggressive eaters I know. I've had them jump inside of my feeding cup on several occasions. Never noticed any toxicity at all the few times I had to grab them when they jumped out while feeding. Boldest dart frog I own, always out in the open.




> Well I wouldn't say attacking, more like they thought the fingers were food and tried to eat them  .  Some darts are shy while others are bolder.  But I would really classify any of them as aggressive to humans.

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## Mike

> But I would really classify any of them as aggressive to humans.


Meant to say wouldn't.

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