# Frogs & Toads > Toads >  American Toad weird symptoms. New owner, need help

## apr0705

Hey everyone,


First of all sorry, because this post will be long. I've been a lurker on this site for quite a while now, but this will be my first post. It sucks that it must be under these circumstances, but I really need some advice here. I've had my 2 babies for about 3 months. They are both some types of American Toad, and one is only slightly larger (Terry) than the other (John) . So a few nights ago, it was feeding time and we couldn't find Terry. he's normally very enthusiastic to eat every night, so my fiance lifted up the tree hiding place that we have in their tank, and i happened to look away and when i looked back Terry was on the substrate, where he hadn't been before. I believe he fell out of the tree (at most a 6 inch fall), but my fiance says he was looking and that he didn't. I'm not sure what really happened, but I figured I would include this information just in case his symptoms line up with some possible injury :/. So when this happens he starts moving to hide again, except he is walking very strangely, like trying to drag himself and not use his legs right. We determined that he was in the middle of shedding, because we saw some skin coming off around his legs and he was doing the mouth-rubbing motions that they do when they shed. So we left him alone for the night.
The next day, I wake up and he looks like this. (IM SORRY the image is sideways i couldnt figure out how to fix it)



Whatever is in his mouth looks covered in substrate. So I took him out of the enclosure and put him in a bath, to try to figure out what this was. When it rinsed off, i could tell that it was skin hanging from his mouth. it looked like a foot or hand piece, with clearly fingers hanging out. Then, something pink emerged from his mouth (pictured). After some minutes it went back in, but the skin was still hanging out, and he was repeatedly opening his mouth trying to swallow it but nothing was going down. i looked in his mouth when he opened it and couldn't really see anything big in there other than his tongue.


There was skin hanging off of his legs, making it hard for him to walk. It was attaching them to his sides. So I peeled the skin off for him as much as I could, thus restoring most function to his legs. I ended up giving him another warm water bath after this, and peeling off more skin. I also cut the skin that was hanging from his mouth to reduce the amount he had to swallow because it wasn't attached to him. I put him back in the enclosure and left him alone for a while, and he didn't eat that night either.



The next day, he still wasn't eating or moving very much, and he was very bloated this whole time but I haven't found any poop, so I thought maybe he was impacted and that's why he couldnt swallow his skin... so i thought maybe a honey bath would help. So i gave him a warm bath with a couple drops of honey, followed by a regular warm bath, and he didnt poop but some more skin came off. He seems to bob his head up and down very slightly, like he's still trying to swallow something. When I flip him over i can see there are still patches of dead skin attached to his belly.


I put him back in, and now he's been buried in the same spot for 2 days. he isn't interested in eating at all. His color is lighter than usual. And i'm very worried. What do you guys suggest I do? I am at a loss here :/


here's some other information that may be useful. I've been making some upgrades to their routine since terry got sick so i will include this info as well...
-The 2 toads are in a 10 gallon tank. When i got them they were both only about a half inch. Now the larger one and he is about an inch and a half, and i was getting ready to upgrade them to a 20 gallon before this all started happening.
-they were on a nightly feeding schedule, with their food getting dusted with Zoo Meds reptivite with d3 twice a week. They just recently got off fruit flies and started eating dubias and extra small crickets.  (after all of this i am leaning towards switching them to an every other night feeding schedule, and I also picked up Repashy's Calcium Plus that i am going to use every night instead of the reptivite twice a week.)
-they did not have any special lighting. we have a regular LED lamp that we turn on during the daylight hours to give them a sense of schedule. We feed them around 8-10 pm and shut off the lamp afterwards. I just picked up a Daylight Blue 40w bulb that gives off UVA, and today is the first day using it
-Temps are around 65-70 during the day, and 60-70 at night. During the warmer months (we got them in July) it would stay around 80. Humidity is usually around 60%, and when i mist it spikes up to 80 and drops fairly quickly, so i think my meter may be off. Sometimes in the morning it is as low as 40 so i mist it up to 80.
-water gets changed daily and we use water filtered by Brita.
-substrate is Eco earth coco fiber. We did indeed have sphagnum moss in there (frog moss from petco. it was recommended to me by an employee there...now I know that that employee is very wrong and after i suspected that Terry could be impacted I took all of it out.)


Any other questions please ask. i can use all the advice i can get here. If he doesn't eat tonight, it will be night 5 with no food. I really want my baby to be okay and feel terrible if something i did could have caused this ): ):

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## apr0705

Not sure if this will help but here is a photo of both of them when they were healthy. John is on the bottom, and Terry is the one sitting on the moss.

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## KP

This all sounds like a typical shedding. They'll puff up to stretch and tear the old skin, so that's normal. They'll be discolored as they're between old, dingy skin and the not yet fully exposed new skin. The hiding during the process is also normal since they know they're vulnerable all the while. (I don't think I'd want to do something like that out in the open either.  :Smile:  ) They'll also be stiff before and during a shedding again, owing to the old, relatively dry skin being shed. The substrate caking onto the old skin is very likely depending upon what it is. That you can easily make a positive change of right away to help the little guy, so not a dire emergency as long as he hasn't ingested enough to impact his gut. 
Seems like he's just had a particularly arduous shed this time. Maybe change their habitat to help them avoid the caking of substrate on old skin problem but otherwise he should be fine once he's done.
He actually looks quite good in your photos. Good color, robust stockiness, bright eyes. I'd say he's ok.

Also, they'll eat less prior to a shedding and they won't eat again until after they've been done for a little while, nothing to worry about there either. And always leave them alone to eat their skin, they need it. 

Almost forgot, that "something pink" hanging out of his mouth is his tongue.

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MuchoTaco

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## apr0705

> This all sounds like a typical shedding. They'll puff up to stretch and tear the old skin, so that's normal. They'll be discolored as they're between old, dingy skin and the not yet fully exposed new skin. The hiding during the process is also normal since they know they're vulnerable all the while. (I don't think I'd want to do something like that out in the open either.  ) They'll also be stiff before and during a shedding again, owing to the old, relatively dry skin being shed. The substrate caking onto the old skin is very likely depending upon what it is. That you can easily make a positive change of right away to help the little guy, so not a dire emergency as long as he hasn't ingested enough to impact his gut. 
> Seems like he's just had a particularly arduous shed this time. Maybe change their habitat to help them avoid the caking of substrate on old skin problem but otherwise he should be fine once he's done.
> He actually looks quite good in your photos. Good color, robust stockiness, bright eyes. I'd say he's ok.
> 
> Also, they'll eat less prior to a shedding and they won't eat again until after they've been done for a little while, nothing to worry about there either. And always leave them alone to eat their skin, they need it. 
> 
> Almost forgot, that "something pink" hanging out of his mouth is his tongue.


Thank you so much KP. I'm relieved that you think my Terry is okay. So should I expect their sheds to always take 4 days to go through? because it just seemed like a long time and I was under the impression that shedding happened relatively fast, fast enough for owners to miss it. I also thought it was normal for it to come off in one piece, so when I saw that it was coming off in some pieces that concerned me. thank you again :')

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## KP

The other thing I'd add is that it's really important under normal circumstances that they be left alone to shed and part of his reluctance to eat could be the measures you attempted as he was shedding, not to say that taking the clump out of his mouth wasn't the thing to do as in this case it certainly was but the bathing and removing of old skin for him may have left him more tender than usual from a shedding since the new skin comes with the same kind of heightened sensitivity we'd have from something like an abnormally abrasive exfoliation treatment at the spa or one of those microderm abrasions people get. 

I know people don't like to do things au naturalle in the pet world but of all the substrates available I recommend using good, clean dirt which is what Toads of this kind live in. They burrow, and they love doing it, so if they can't burrow to their hearts content they need to be able to do that as much and as soon as you can make that possible.

You should have as much of a larger tank for them as you can find and/or afford with a good six(6) inches of soil throughout for them to get as down and dirty in as they please. Drop their food onto the surface and they'll emerge at night to hunt it like they do in the wild.

On top of the soil you can put large pieces of tree bark which they'll happily burrow under. They'll love you for all of these things.

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## KP

This session took longer than it reasonably should have as I noted, now don't feel bad about this, but in part because of your help, and also because it began with entanglement in the substrate which of course necessitated your loving interferance. The skin won't come off like a snake's does, in one piece. It'll always have to be done as they can reach it with their limbs and push it into their mouths, so piece-bypiece is all good. They go through a whole lot of gyrations and contortions to get it all.

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## apr0705

Aw man, now I feel bad for messing with him as much as i did hah, looks like i may have to regain his trust for a bit.  one more question, I currently have a 20 gal tank that I would like to upgrade them to. do you think it would be ok to do it now, or would it be too stressful for him after all of this happening over the past few days? Should I  wait to move them until he starts moving around again and eating like normal?

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## KP

And you're quite welcome. I'm glad I found your post so soon. As I've indicated in previous threads, I have Tree Frogs, Hyla versicolor and Hyla chrysoscelis for the last few years but my early and longest-term specialty was Toads like yours of the Anaxyrus group. All I do with them nowadays is promote their increase in and around my compound but they remain one of my most favorite little creatures to have around. 

I'm sure yours will be fortunate to have you.

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## KP

Good call, I'd wait a while to let him resume normal activity before another shake-up. That shouldn't take long. But be aware that you might not have prevented him from swallowing a hazardous volume of substrate so keep an eye on his behavior and seek medical help in the event that he doesn't resume normal feeding soon.

I will say that I've never had a Toad with an impacted bowel so if others here have direct experience with this problem it would be helpful to hear from them right away, in the event you have to deal with that hardship.

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## apr0705

Thanks so much, I'll try to update this thread within the next week and let you know how it goes  :Frog Smile:

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## KP

Yes, please do. I'll look forward to his progress report, thanks!

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## KP

One final note about their eating this time of year, it will decrease. Compare their apetites with each other and they should be at least somewhat similar in their lowered enthusiasm and intake since as you know it's entering the hibernation season for them if they were wild. Also the variations in season conditions from year to year can bring on an earlier or later hibernation so take that into account with regard to their feeding responses these days.

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## apr0705

UPDATE:
So it's 4 days later and there is still skin stuck to him in some places. He still hasn't eaten or pooped. Still hasn't been moving around. He is keeping his eyes closed a lot now. I made an appt with a vet for tomorrow at noon. I hope everything goes well, thanks for all your advice KP.

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## KP

Your decision to take Terry in for a medical professional to examine is the wise direction to go, I'm glad you were able to find a Vet who can see him, and especially in this timely way. 
Make sure you tell the Vet everything you tried on him, don't leave anything out, that is if you haven't already. 
I hope he can be treated for whatever it is and please let us know what the Vet says and what the prognosis and treatment are, will you?
Thanks for that in advance.
I'll be thinking of Terry around noon your time.
KP

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## apr0705

Hey,
sooo here's what the vet told me. she said the biggest concern was most likely some type of GI blockage. She advised that i give him warm honey baths every day or even twice a day to keep him moist and warm. She also suggested that i could try and force feed him, she gave me 2 tiny little syringes and told me to buy meat baby food (like chicken or beef, for the protein), and to dilute it with a little warm water and try and get it in his mouth. the last advice she had was to keep their temperatures from fluctuating down at night, because the colder temps we've been having up here in Michigan might be making him want to hibernate.. so yeah it didn't go bad, but now i know i have a lot of work to do with him!
I _really_ want to separate my two until Terry gets better, but the predicament is I only have 1 light bulb and 1 heating mat (which wasn't even in use before now) and there's no good way for them to share the heat in 2 separate tanks. i should be able to come up with the money for more in the next couple days, but for now i just rigged up the heating pad on the water bowl side of the tank and really hope that helps enough til i can get more heat for them. I plan on keeping terry in the 10 gallon and moving John boy to the 20, and hopefully combining them again when Terry's feeling better.

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## KP

Thanks for keeping up to the minute on Terry's condition. I'm really glad you got medical advice about him. Yeah it sounds like you have some intensive care to give him and it seems like you're up to it. From your pictures and your description I suspected that he might have swallowed more of the substrate than you were able to get out of his mouth. Regarding the temperature, I have to keep my Grays tank above 60 degrees or they start to exhibit behaviors leading into their winter dessication period. About the idea of separating them, if the Vet didn't tell you that you should do that you might consider leaving them in the 10gal. for this winter since they won't be as active as in the other seasons even with the heat and it'll be much easier to keep good heat in the smaller tank.  
Please keep updating this thread with Terry's progress, I really want to read about him pulling through this.

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## KP

Do you have news of Terry's condition?

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## apr0705

Yes, so not a whole lot has changed, he does seem to be moving around a bit more since going to the vet. He's still really plump, hasn't lost a bit of weight during any of this. We have force fed him twice now (with a syringe, beef gerber baby food diluted with warm water and with added Repshy's Calcium Plus and Zoo Med's Reptivite). We have been doing this every other night and will be doing it again tonight..He still won't go for any insect on his own so I guess we're just going to keep doing this until he eats on his own again. The temp in the tank now stays around 80 degrees, about 75 at night, we also got a fogger humidifier that we put in the tank when we aren't home.  Kinda just hoping at this point that he decides to take a worm by himself one of these days, and i've heard that sometimes it takes months.

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## KP

> Yes, so not a whole lot has changed, he does seem to be moving around a bit more since going to the vet. He's still really plump, hasn't lost a bit of weight during any of this. We have force fed him twice now (with a syringe, beef gerber baby food diluted with warm water and with added Repshy's Calcium Plus and Zoo Med's Reptivite). We have been doing this every other night and will be doing it again tonight..He still won't go for any insect on his own so I guess we're just going to keep doing this until he eats on his own again. The temp in the tank now stays around 80 degrees, about 75 at night, we also got a fogger humidifier that we put in the tank when we aren't home.  Kinda just hoping at this point that he decides to take a worm by himself one of these days, and i've heard that sometimes it takes months.


Thanks for reporting on Terry!

Well, it sounds like you're following the Vet's prescription. Doesn't seem like you can do much more than that. One thing I've found that seems to stimulate my Gray Tree Frogs' bowels is holding them in my palm under the faucet and letting slightly warm water run over them from around 3 inches to immediately above. The flow rate is very gentle and provides a very aerated shower. They're only slightly more inclined to water than the Anaxyrus family of Toads but when I do this they will turn their most relaxed shade of gray, and sit in complete calm for as long as I'll provide them with the service. A little Hydro-therapy at the Frog Spa, but seriously, it frequently stimulates a good bowel movement.

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## apr0705

I like your suggestion, but I dont know if I could exactly do  that because the tap water in my area is very contaminated so I have to treat all of it before I use it with the toads, so it would be a bit hard to shower him for that long out of a jug..although I would love to do that. For now I'm just gonna give him warm baths before and after feeding on the feeding days, does that sound like it would be enough?

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## apr0705

Also would you recommend force feeding him any dubias or worms or should I stick to the liquid mixture?

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## KP

> I like your suggestion, but I dont know if I could exactly do  that because the tap water in my area is very contaminated so I have to treat all of it before I use it with the toads, so it would be a bit hard to shower him for that long out of a jug..although I would love to do that. For now I'm just gonna give him warm baths before and after feeding on the feeding days, does that sound like it would be enough?


Oh no, then definitely don't do it out of the tap. I think you could try to get crafty and creative to rig a way to do it with the treated water you can use. Certainly keep doing the warm baths like the Dr. said. 
I have a very deep well and the water has no impurities whatsoever, no metal imbalances, and the ph is neutral. Has a little sulfur but I have a large, inline filter system that catches it before it gets into the plumbing.

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## KP

> Also would you recommend force feeding him any dubias or worms or should I stick to the liquid mixture?


I think you should stay with the Vet's prescription.
Did they schedule a follow-up appointment at your first visit? If so, then you'd want to keep strictly to the prescription until then, for sure.

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## apr0705

Wow you're very lucky with your water situation lol, it's a bit of a different story where i live. 
They did not schedule a follow-up appt, though I may call them again just to ask for more advice. I hate having to put him through the force feeding every other night ): i just know he's miserable.

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## KP

Yeah I think you should definitely check-in with the Vet since it's their prescription you're following. I'm surprised they didn't suggest a follow-up appointment for you. Do they have Amphibians and/or Reptiles as a part of their practice or did they just see Terry as a one-off kind of thing? 

Yes I see the conditions in my "compound" as I call it as atypically ideal in almost every respect and the water here is probably the single most significant blessing of all.
You should check out my photo albums here and see this playlist on my youtube channel to get an idea of my work propagating Hyla versicolor and Hyla chrysoscelis Frogs and Anaxyrus Toads: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...8f46gZXD7Bq3FD I encourage anyone with any way of doing the same kind of Frog, Toad, and other amphibian propagation on their property to do the same.

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## apr0705

They said they don't get a lot of reptiles in their office. But we did see a certified Exotic vet, I found her on https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661
Very interesting, I will definitely take a look at your work!!

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## KP

Oh good that's the directory site I recommend to people to find a Vet for their Rep's and Amp's.
So back to what I said, I'd say just follow their prescription and be patient. I think you said they told you it could take a while. 
Also my experience with domesticated Frogs, Toads, Turtles, Tortoises, Newts, and an Alligator made me realize that they're more responsive to the vibe and care you give them than most people would even imagine. Terry senses your compassion and that'll mitigate the necessarily firm handling it takes to feed him. These little critters do have feelings and they do sense human intent and love. I know my frogs, all of which came into their lives with disabilities that would have made them snacks for predators within the first few hours or days at the longest, each have their own personalities and respond to me in different ways. Having them in a domestic setting and interacting with them upgrades them in ways just as it dulls their instincts in other ways. Hang-in there for Terry. 

The other thing I'm wondering is if the Vet can be certain his trouble is a blockage, is there a way to enter the cloaca with something like a tweezer/speculum and pull the blockage out? I'd ask the Vet that question. If they can sedate the patient the cloaca would be more relaxed and that would make that kind of procedure easier. Just wondering. If they can do that it would be a surgery without any cutting or stitching.

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## apr0705

Honestly thank you for telling me that they can sense human intent. I wasn't sure to what extent they could process emotions, i mean i know they pee when i pick them up so i always feel like i'm bothering them, but i would love to think that Terry senses my intent and knows i wouldn't hurt him intentionally.
The vet wasn't really *certain* about a blockage, it just seemed like her best guess i suppose. Going in and pulling it out would be the next thing i bring up to the vet if nothing else happens at this point, but i do have an update/development..

Last night when I went to give Terry his bath, the sides of his belly were very noticeably sucked in, and there was skin hanging around his mouth. I figured he was shedding, i just picked him up real quick to peek and make sure everything looked ok, then i quickly put him back in his hiding spot and left him alone for the night, no bath.  It's been almost 24 hours, and I just checked on him again and i couldn't see anymore visible skin but he was extremely round. I think i'm going to skip bath today again, but just mist him periodically, and skip feeding tonight also. It's been 19 days since i witnessed his last shedding, (which was when this whole ordeal started). I'm not sure if hes actually just finishing that last shed, (since there has still been skin stuck to his belly this whole time) or if this is a different one, or what is going on with that. So that's why i feel like i should leave him alone for maybe 2 more days(?) and see what happens.

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## AAron

I'm not trying to sound negative but frogs and toads do not have the same emotions as what people do. They do not share compassion. If you keep too many toads in one setup they will try to starve each other just so that way they get more food. They are much smarter and are actually more strategist than what people believe but I do not believe they show compassion. regardless on if you have a wounded animal or a healthy animal their natural instinct is to try to get away and that is still something they are going to do regardless on how long you keep the animal. it's important to understand the slower and the more gentle you go with the frog or toad the better the experience and the more comfortable they feel so they're not as willing to try to escape and assume you are a predator. there is no scientific proof that shows these animals can show human emotions. The one thing that I am arguing that these animals possess that many people do not believe specifically for the North American tree frogs and toads is that they can become territorial in captivity and can establish a hierarchy. This is not something that is scientifically proven because some people do not believe this while others strongly believe this. I know from experience where I stand and someday I hope to write something about this becoming a researcher. But I just wanted to make it clear the only way they would know the intent is if you're going slow and you are not seeming as a threat to them.

Sent from my BKL-L04 using Tapatalk

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## KP

One way you'll know they're at ease with you will be when you can handle them without them ever doing anything defensive in response, from discharges to inflation and curling to just scrambling to get away. Toads are a little harder to domesticate to that degree than Gray Tree Frogs are but you shouldn't hesitate to try. It's best not to take them up when they're sleeping or hiding but if you see them out and exploring their tank you can take that opportunity to further acquaint them with you. My Tree Frogs let me know they want to have outside time by jumping onto the screen door of their tank and crawling over to the part nearest to me. During the winter they're far less active and eat much less and sleep much more but periodically they will be interested in some socializing. They get agitated climbing on the screen and are all charcoal colored, then get very calm and turn very light gray once they're on my hand. In the winter months they'll just go to sleep on me but in the warm seasons they'll  climb all over me.

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## KP

Check for any signs of elimination, and maybe try to feed him live food. If he's shed, and has been able to pass any blockage if that's what it was, then he'll get some appetite back for live food. But keep in mind that he's programmed to hibernate now so his apetite won't be anywhere near what it will be in other seasons.
It sounds like he's making progress.  :Smile:

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## KP

> I'm not trying to sound negative but frogs and toads do not have the same emotions as what people do. They do not share compassion. If you keep too many toads in one setup they will try to starve each other just so that way they get more food. They are much smarter and are actually more strategist than what people believe but I do not believe they show compassion. regardless on if you have a wounded animal or a healthy animal their natural instinct is to try to get away and that is still something they are going to do regardless on how long you keep the animal. it's important to understand the slower and the more gentle you go with the frog or toad the better the experience and the more comfortable they feel so they're not as willing to try to escape and assume you are a predator. there is no scientific proof that shows these animals can show human emotions. The one thing that I am arguing that these animals possess that many people do not believe specifically for the North American tree frogs and toads is that they can become territorial in captivity and can establish a hierarchy. This is not something that is scientifically proven because some people do not believe this while others strongly believe this. I know from experience where I stand and someday I hope to write something about this becoming a researcher. But I just wanted to make it clear the only way they would know the intent is if you're going slow and you are not seeming as a threat to them.
> 
> Sent from my BKL-L04 using Tapatalk


First thing here is that at no point did I or anyone say that frogs and toads "have the same emotions as what people do" as you put it. No where did anyone state as you also put it that they "share compassion". You managed to take all of what I and then apr0705 said and come up with your own twisted misinterpretation of it to mean something completely other than what was stated. Perhaps you should try reading those posts again. You seem to insist upon disagreeing with almost everything I post which is begining to get old and looks a little trollish. 

Now, with regard to how these or any animals behave in captivity as opposed to in the wild, it's a fact that they don't behave the same in both circumstances.
Of course, if you put too many of any living thing into a confined space they'll exhibit a wide range of aberrant behaviors such as you describe and more. 

Many animals, if bred in or taken into captivity when newly brought into the world will depart from the norm of their specie's observed behavior with daily human interaction, i.e. a degree of domestication. 

As for the Anaxyrus family of Toads and the Gray/Cope's Gray tree frogs native to the region in which I am, I have a unique place from which to observe their behavior as they live on and around the house, the trees and shrubs on the grounds, and from there out to the vast acreages of forests and fields surrounding it. My pool cover measures 20x40 feet and is a central spawning pond for both Tree Frogs and Toads as well as other species of amphibians which I've noted in other threads, all of which come from as far away as a quarter mile from 3 cardinal points to spawn in it. This gives me the absolutely perfect, immediately up-close observation post from which to gather data every year. 

In addition to my constant observation of both the Tree Frogs and the Toads outside the house, I have four Grays, each with their own personality who respond to me each as individuals in individual ways, including but not limited to, with their color changes. They will all climb onto my hand without prodding, never trying to flee. One of them whenever taken from the tank climbs onto my hand, then crawls by whatever route he can to the top of my head where he has sat for as long as 4 hours as I go about my business around the house, watch a movie, get online, make dinner, eat, etc. and he will only come down when I remove him when I have to return him to his tank. The other three exhibit the same comfort with human contact. None of them exhibit any defensive responses toward me at any time. Once in a while they'll defecate on me but that's not a defensive threat response, in fact they have to be completely comfortable to relax and do that when being handled by a huge creature they would see only as a potential predator or a general threat if they were not domesticated. They all will sleep in my hand or on my shoulder, on my arm, torso, leg, whatever, and turn their most relaxed gray shade the entire time they're being handled. 

They also love to play, climbing on my hands and arms and jumping from one part of me to another, all while being completely at ease and enthusiastic, never displaying their threat colors of the darker shades of their spectrum. Then after burning off some energy, they'll fall asleep on me. But one can only know these kind of intimate aspects of their potential, latent nature by being close to them on the level I have been and am currently and by putting the time in to domesticate them from their first day as a froglet.

Maybe you shouldn't keep these animals as captives if you don't feel you're able to connect with them.
By keeping them in small boxes and telling yourself you're doing something akin to scientific observation, you fail to understand that you won't see them as they would be in the wild. Barring having an ideal circumstance as I do, only by immersing yourself into the wild where they live and becoming a part of the immediate environment they're at home within will you ever gain any real understanding and appreciation of their nature and complexity. This is true for observation of any animal. Even if you should take that step, your very presence will alter their behavior to the degree that it may take a generation or two before you're taken for granted by the community you're surrounded by and no longer having much effect on their behavior just by the fact of your being there, but that's not a committment most can make.  

I've had the advantage of having both Anaxyrus Toads and both Hyla Tree Frogs draw close to me in large numbers by the fact of my pool cover pond of snowmelt and rain in the spring, coupled with my immediate proximity to their purely wild habitat, so I'm able to observe them both in their wild, individual (Toads) and communal (Tree Frogs) context directly outside of my house and in the case of the Tree Frogs, a domesticated condition within my house as well. 

Finally, when I say "These little critters do have feelings and they do sense human intent and love." , this doesn't mean they have human emotions as you misunderstand it to mean. 

Gray Tree Frogs, when domesticated, change color in response to a variety of conditions and not merely in response to the colors of their surroundings as some observers like to assert. They change colors according to their mood as readilly as they do to camouflage themselves as those in the wild do.

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## AAron

> First thing here is that at no point did I or anyone say that frogs and toads "have the same emotions as what people do" as you put it. No where did anyone state as you also put it that they "share compassion". You managed to take all of what I and then apr0705 said and come up with your own twisted misinterpretation of it to mean something completely other than what was stated. Perhaps you should try reading those posts again. You seem to insist upon disagreeing with almost everything I post which is begining to get old and looks a little trollish. 
> 
> Now, with regard to how these or any animals behave in captivity as opposed to in the wild, it's a fact that they don't behave the same in both circumstances.
> Of course, if you put too many of any living thing into a confined space they'll exhibit a wide range of aberrant behaviors such as you describe and more. 
> 
> Many animals, if bred in or taken into captivity when newly brought into the world will depart from the norm of their specie's observed behavior with daily human interaction, i.e. a degree of domestication. 
> 
> As for the Anaxyrus family of Toads and the Gray/Cope's Gray tree frogs native to the region in which I am, I have a unique place from which to observe their behavior as they live on and around the house, the trees and shrubs on the grounds, and from there out to the vast acreages of forests and fields surrounding it. My pool cover measures 20x40 feet and is a central spawning pond for both Tree Frogs and Toads as well as other species of amphibians which I've noted in other threads, all of which come from as far away as a quarter mile from 3 cardinal points to spawn in it. This gives me the absolutely perfect, immediately up-close observation post from which to gather data every year. 
> 
> ...


I appreciate your responses but I also feel obligated to give responses as I always have for many years. You give some good thought in your posts but I'm sure anyone would have read what you wrote and assumed you really meant they have feelings like people. 

I am not trolling you I am subscribed to these two areas as I'm sure you are so I comment on posts that I feel need my help. It has nothing to do with you. Unless Bill, Xavier or Dan post I don't assume a post is covered so I attempt to help the best that I can. 

As for your comments about my small boxes I actually have not known of anyone even a zoo to keep toads in a 6 foot long enclosure so I don't have to really entertain that statement. I am going to have 3 tanks over 100 gallons by the end of the year and  that's 3/4 of my enclosures that size. All my animals are given the biggest enclosures I feel possible to have. 

I do not just keep these animals in captivity. I have been exploring many parts of the state and observing toads and pond frogs especially as to their behavior which is of greater distance then the compound you mention. From the old abandoned turnpike up to Potter County to Fayette County all around the western and central part of the state I observe these animals. I have seen suburban, forested and in some small cases urban habitats of these animals and as I observe the animals in these habitats I learn more and more about them. I also am beginning work with other researchers this spring and am attempting to reach out to the state fish and boat commission. So I have a lot of great resources to help me and I'm not perfect and I am wrong sometimes but I'm passionate about helping people care for their animals and I want to do the best that I can. It's not to offend you but if I can help educate someone or teach or show someone something about these animals then I will attempt to do so. 

I apologise to the OP and do not wish to go down a rabbit trail from your post. If you do wish to have my help tag me in your post so I can see.

Thank you. 

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## KP

I live with them 24/7. You can't get a better opportunity to observe them and collect data no matter how much you travel around the state.
And an enclosure no matter how large will not be in any measure equal to observation of wild animals by immersion in their habitat.

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## AAron

> I live with them 24/7. You can't get a better opportunity to observe them and collect data no matter how much you travel around the state.
> And an enclosure no matter how large will not be in any measure equal to observation of wild animals by immersion in their habitat.


I live with them too, but what you seem to be missing is that observations from different populations is a more detailed understanding of a species. It's good to be around them in a forest but to see them in different environments is even better for observation. 

I don't know what you are trying to say with your second part of your response? You own frogs too and your frogs are probably not kept in larger setups. You are keeping deformed frogs and I'm keeping rescued frogs and toads in massive enclosures with advanced climate control and attempting to breed them to replenish their numbers from the area they came from. Of course I can observe them and get good information. I will have wild and captive information which is what I want anyways. That said they are two different categories and I'm not comparing wild to captive amphibians. I will have two types of research.

If you have a disagreement with me pm me I don't want to continue to get further away from the OP original post. 

Sorry again to you btw!

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## KP

You said: "If you have a disagreement with me pm me I don't want to continue to get further away from the OP original post."

Then stop trolling my posts. 

My information and advice to apr0705 was completely legitimate and it was you who trolled me. 
What you're doing here is the epitome of trolling and it derails the thread. 
This happens all the time on websites like this and you've been trolling my posts since I began posting here on Frog Forum.

I have no interest in pm-ing with you about anything. You just need to stop trolling me and anyone else you're trolling.

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## AAron

> You said: "If you have a disagreement with me pm me I don't want to continue to get further away from the OP original post."
> 
> Then stop trolling my posts. 
> 
> My information and advice to apr0705 was completely legitimate and it was you who trolled me. 
> What you're doing here is the epitome of trolling and it derails the thread. 
> This happens all the time on websites like this and you've been trolling my posts since I began posting here on Frog Forum.
> 
> I have no interest in pm-ing with you about anything. You just need to stop trolling me and anyone else you're trolling.


Listen if there is a post that I feel the need to respond to then I am going to do so. If I don't believe the best advice is given then I'm going to give a response. It doesn't matter who comments on the thread. You shouldn't take this so personal I'm not interested in trolling you I'm just trying to help someone out. I have done this for 5 years on the site now. I've gotten into disagreements with many people but I've also helped a lot of people so it just is what it is. I'm sorry that you feel like I'm trolling you but if you have a problem then either pm me and we can try to work it out or talk to an admin. 

Two times now I've been trying to either make peace or end the conversation and idk why we can't just move past this thread. It's not helping anyone who reads this anymore. I'll try to unfollow the post of that makes you feel better. Can we just please be done and move on from this?

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## KP

> Listen if there is a post that I feel the need to respond to then I am going to do so. If I don't believe the best advice is given then I'm going to give a response. It doesn't matter who comments on the thread. You shouldn't take this so personal I'm not interested in trolling you I'm just trying to help someone out. I have done this for 5 years on the site now. I've gotten into disagreements with many people but I've also helped a lot of people so it just is what it is. I'm sorry that you feel like I'm trolling you but if you have a problem then either pm me and we can try to work it out or talk to an admin. 
> 
> Two times now I've been trying to either make peace or end the conversation and idk why we can't just move past this thread. It's not helping anyone who reads this anymore. I'll try to unfollow the post of that makes you feel better. Can we just please be done and move on from this?
> 
> Sent from my BKL-L04 using Tapatalk


You're still doing it. 
You start the trolling and then act like you just want the person you troll to stop, just to "be done and move along".
You interject by trying to tear down what someone else says with your opinion and then act all the victim when you're called out for trolling.
You need to knock it off. It's not your call to end any conversation, particularly if you weren't a part of it in the first place, you just decided to troll the thread and now you want it to end because you can't troll it without being called out for it. That is the very definition of "Trolling".

That you've "done this for 5 years on this site now" and that you've "gotten into disagreements with many people" as you say is exactly your problem.

If you feel a burning need to oppose what someone else says, what you need to do is leave your ego aside and simply state your position directly to the questioner and be detatched from needing to look like the smartest person in the room.
This will allow the questioner to read and sift through all the information and opinions given to them by all of the people who respond and not to have to choose between the personalities of the people offering their advice and opinions. 

The bottom line for you is that you need to stop your trolling behavior and stop complaining that it's you whose been attacked or victimized whenever you're called on it after you do it.

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## AAron

> You're still doing it. 
> You start the trolling and then act like you just want the person you troll to stop, just to "be done and move along".
> You interject by trying to tear down what someone else says with your opinion and then act all the victim when you're called out for trolling.
> You need to knock it off. It's not your call to end any conversation, particularly if you weren't a part of it in the first place, you just decided to troll the thread and now you want it to end because you can't troll it without being called out for it. That is the very definition of "Trolling".
> 
> That you've "done this for 5 years on this site now" and that you've "gotten into disagreements with many people" as you say is exactly your problem.
> 
> If you feel a burning need to oppose what someone else says, what you need to do is leave your ego aside and simply state your position directly to the questioner and be detatched from needing to look like the smartest person in the room.
> This will allow the questioner to read and sift through all the information and opinions given to them by all of the people who respond and not to have to choose between the personalities of the people offering their advice and opinions. 
> ...


At some point you have to realize that I've been trying to move on from the discussion with you because it's not helping anyone. I don't understand why you continue to feel the need to tell me that I'm a troll whenever I already explained to you that I am subscribed to these posts for toads and tree frogs and I am going to respond if I feel it is necessary. It has nothing to do with being the smartest person it's just about making sure the point is explained and followed up. 

You have to understand you are on a public forum and you can't threaten someone to stop posting on a public forum. It's disappointing that you continue to say that I troll you and if that's how you feel I'm sorry you feel that way but if someone posts on something and if I feel the need to respond then I'm going to respond. Even if you respond I'm still going to respond if I believe I can give good advice to someone. 

You need to understand you can't call dibs on a post and nobody else is allowed to post because of you. If you can't explain your point please don't get mad if someone asks you to. If your going to put a post out there it's fair game to challenge it. That's how people grow. 

If you feel the need to keep going just make another post or something so we can just keep going if you want but this doesn't need to be on this person's post. I don't understand why you need to get the last word and feel so personally attacked but that's fine we can keep this going on if it's something you need to keep going back to. 

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## KP

You just can't stop your trolling. SMH  :Flogging a Dead Horse:

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## AAron

> You just can't stop your trolling. SMH


Actually you are the troll you continue to keep the conversation going on and on and on and you say the same thing repeatedly. I don't understand why you can't move on from this discussion already? 

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## KP

> Actually you are the troll you continue to keep the conversation going on and on and on and you say the same thing repeatedly. I don't understand why you can't move on from this discussion already? 
> 
> Sent from my BKL-L04 using Tapatalk


 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  Here's your very first comment on this thread, and it's 100% troll:

"I'm not trying to sound negative but frogs and toads do not have the same emotions as what people do. They do not share compassion. If you keep too many toads in one setup they will try to starve each other just so that way they get more food. They are much smarter and are actually more strategist than what people believe but I do not believe they show compassion. regardless on if you have a wounded animal or a healthy animal their natural instinct is to try to get away and that is still something they are going to do regardless on how long you keep the animal. it's important to understand the slower and the more gentle you go with the frog or toad the better the experience and the more comfortable they feel so they're not as willing to try to escape and assume you are a predator. there is no scientific proof that shows these animals can show human emotions. The one thing that I am arguing that these animals possess that many people do not believe specifically for the North American tree frogs and toads is that they can become territorial in captivity and can establish a hierarchy. This is not something that is scientifically proven because some people do not believe this while others strongly believe this. I know from experience where I stand and someday I hope to write something about this becoming a researcher. But I just wanted to make it clear the only way they would know the intent is if you're going slow and you are not seeming as a threat to them."

From there you were off and running and you STILL can't seem to conTROLL your impulses.  :Flogging a Dead Horse:

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## AAron

> Here's your very first comment on this thread, and it's 100% troll:
> 
> "I'm not trying to sound negative but frogs and toads do not have the same emotions as what people do. They do not share compassion. If you keep too many toads in one setup they will try to starve each other just so that way they get more food. They are much smarter and are actually more strategist than what people believe but I do not believe they show compassion. regardless on if you have a wounded animal or a healthy animal their natural instinct is to try to get away and that is still something they are going to do regardless on how long you keep the animal. it's important to understand the slower and the more gentle you go with the frog or toad the better the experience and the more comfortable they feel so they're not as willing to try to escape and assume you are a predator. there is no scientific proof that shows these animals can show human emotions. The one thing that I am arguing that these animals possess that many people do not believe specifically for the North American tree frogs and toads is that they can become territorial in captivity and can establish a hierarchy. This is not something that is scientifically proven because some people do not believe this while others strongly believe this. I know from experience where I stand and someday I hope to write something about this becoming a researcher. But I just wanted to make it clear the only way they would know the intent is if you're going slow and you are not seeming as a threat to them."
> 
> From there you were off and running and you STILL can't seem to conTROLL your impulses.


So you are using my words to explain why I had to try and clarify to the poster that frogs are not empathetic? That's not trolling hopefully you can read it again and understand why I posted it in the first place. 

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## KP

> So you are using my words to explain why I had to try and clarify to the poster that frogs are not empathetic? That's not trolling hopefully you can read it again and understand why I posted it in the first place. 
> 
> Sent from my BKL-L04 using Tapatalk


Nope. You simply had to troll the thread with your opinion. Your opinion is as valid or invalid as anyone elses opinion but it's merely that. Your opinion. Your way of inserting it into a thread was and remains trollish. 
And you're STILL doing it. Unable to conTROLL your impulse to assert your opinion as though it is fact and derailing threads to do so. Trolly, very trolly.
Your turn: Troll says what?

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## AAron

> Nope. You simply had to troll the thread with your opinion. Your opinion is as valid or invalid as anyone elses opinion but it's merely that. Your opinion. Your way of inserting it into a thread was and remains trollish. 
> And you're STILL doing it. Unable to conTROLL your impulse to assert your opinion as though it is fact and derailing threads to do so. Trolly, very trolly.
> Your turn: Troll says what?


Why do you have a problem if someone disagrees with you?

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## Lija

Both of you - would you please stop that kindergarten? Thank you. Closing the thread.

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apr0705, Larry Wardog

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