# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  Is this normal?

## MrsNoah

This is our class pet, Limon. When I came in this morning, he was enormously bloated! Should I be concerned?

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## Eli

Welcome to the frog forum! :Smile: 

That is a serious case of bloat! I recommend getting in contact with a vet. 

Answering these questions may also help is figure out what caused the bloat. 

1----what 'kind' of frog is it ( what species)
2----please include a photo of the frog 
3----Please include a photo of the frog's current enclosure
4----size of enclosure ( W" x D" x H" )
5----# on inhabitants - ( if there is another frog --- is there a size difference ? )
6----has or was the frog kept with a different species or with any other tank mate 
7----is there a new tank mate----was the new tank mate quarantined 
8----what is the typical humidity level
9----what temperature is maintained
10---what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
11---describe the enclosure lighting ( very specifically)
12---describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc)
13---what kind of water is used
-----for misting
-----for the frog's soaking dish
-----is de-chlorinator used / what brand
14---material(s) used for substrate - be very specific 
15---enclosure set up:
-----if recent - describe how the enclosure was cleaned
-----plants( live or artificial) if artificial plants are used are they plastic or fabric
-----describe wood, bark , and background materials
16---when is the last time the frog ate
17---have you found poop lately
18---how often is the frog fed
19---what size feeder is given
20---what other feeders are used as treats
21---what is the frog's main food source
22---do feeders roam free in the enclosure or is the frog bowl fed
23---vitamins - what brand and how often
24---calcium - what brand and how often 
25---was the frog without calcium for any period of time
26---approximate age of the frog
27---how long have you owned the frog
28---who cared for the frog before you
29---is the frog wild caught or captive bred
30---how often the frog is handled -- are gloves used ( what kind of gloves) 
31---is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
30---has or was the frog properly quarantined (yes or no)
-----for how long
32---has the frog been treated with any medication:
-----for what
-----name of medication
-----for how long
-----what dose 
-----was medication prescribed by a herp vet

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## Cory

Yes I would be concerned, he is going to need to see a vet. But if you can answer those questions like Eli had suggested someone may be able to help you get rid of some of the bloat and make him feel abit more comfortable till you can get him checked out. What kind of water do you use to expand his substrate and put in his water dish?

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## MatthewM1

Try a nice luke warm soak and see if the bloating goes down after urinating. If after urinating the bloating doesn't go down, or the frog bloats back up shortly after I would highly consider a herp vet.

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## DVirginiana

Something is causing this; to help us figure out what you'll need to answer the Trouble in the Enclosure questions that have already been posted.  There's a good chance you may need to see a vet.

Are you treating the water you expand the substrate and fill the water dish with (like you would for a fishtank)?  If you haven't been, you'll need to change the substrate for some that is expanded with treated water.  Use treated water for soaking too; if you don't it'll just exacerbate the problem.  
But you can try a soak in lukewarm treated water with a few drops of honey stirred in (no deeper than the frog's chin level).

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## MrsNoah

> Try a nice luke warm soak and see if the bloating goes down after urinating. If after urinating the bloating doesn't go down, or the frog bloats back up shortly after I would highly consider a herp vet.


Thank you, Matthew!
I watched him all morning and he finally burrowed back in his substrate. I will keep watching him and take him to our vet if he doesn't improve.

Lisa

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## MrsNoah

Thank you, DVirginiana!
I have never treated his water. I let it sit out for 24 hours before putting it in his bowl. He spends most of his time buried in the substrate. He only comes out to eat and soak once a week or so. 
I will keep watching him!

Lisa

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## MrsNoah

Thank you, Eli! This is great information! Most of the list doesn't apply to Limon, but it gives me great detail to pay attention to!
I appreciate your feedback!

Lisa

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## MrsNoah

Thank you, Cory! I will watch him and take him to the vet if the bloating doesn't go away. I don't use treated water. I just leave it out for 24 hours before putting it in his bowl. 

Lisa

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## Amy

> Thank you, Cory! I will watch him and take him to the vet if the bloating doesn't go away. I don't use treated water. I just leave it out for 24 hours before putting it in his bowl. 
> 
> Lisa


That is not good, chloramines do not gas off, it needs to be treated.  Many of us here use seachem prime to treat our water.  I'm not sure how most of the list does not apply to him, all of the questions there are important and relevant to his health.

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MatthewM1

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## DVirginiana

You need to answer all the questions.

DON'T soak him in untreated water, that will just make the bloating worse.  He is toxing out right now by the looks of things.  You need to go out and get something like SeaChem Prime from your local petstore like Amy said, IMMEDIATELY treat water with it and use it to expand new substrate for him and for his water dish.  If you don't, you'll be looking at a dead frog soon.

Also, can you get a picture of his whole tank?  It may just be the angle, but it looks REALLY small in that pic.

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MatthewM1

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## Thevacantface

Answer the trouble in the enclosure questions

Always treat his water and change it often.

Other things that may be contributing would be an infection, which you would need to treat immediately, or the temps might be too low.  Make sure his enclosure is in the low 80s during the day, and high 70s at night.

I really hope he gets better.

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## MatthewM1

Its very likely your not treating the water is whats causeing this. Like LilyPad said, chloramines do not evaporate. Also water conditioners neutralize heavy metals in the water that are also harmful to frogs over time.

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## MrsNoah

I meant that most of the list did not apply because he doesn't have any tank mates and I don't do any of the things on the list. He has never been to a vet yet and all has been good for 3 years in the current conditions. I will make mecessary changes per your advice. Thank you!

Lisa

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## Eli

By, "not doing any of the things on the list" does that mean your frog has gone three years without sufficient calcium and vitamins? I strongly advise that you answer all questions even if they don't apply as it will greatly assist us in assisting you

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## Frogger00

1----what 'kind' of frog is it ( what species)
2----please include a photo of the frog 
3----Please include a photo of the frog's current enclosure
4----size of enclosure ( W" x D" x H" )
8----what is the typical humidity level
9----what temperature is maintained
10---what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
11---describe the enclosure lighting ( very specifically)
12---describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc)
13---what kind of water is used
-----for misting
-----for the frog's soaking dish
-----is de-chlorinator used / what brand
14---material(s) used for substrate - be very specific 
15---enclosure set up:
-----if recent - describe how the enclosure was cleaned
-----plants( live or artificial) if artificial plants are used are they plastic or fabric
-----describe wood, bark , and background materials
16---when is the last time the frog ate
17---have you found poop lately
18---how often is the frog fed
19---what size feeder is given
20---what other feeders are used as treats
21---what is the frog's main food source
22---do feeders roam free in the enclosure or is the frog bowl fed
23---vitamins - what brand and how often
24---calcium - what brand and how often 
25---was the frog without calcium for any period of time
26---approximate age of the frog
27---how long have you owned the frog
28---who cared for the frog before you
29---is the frog wild caught or captive bred
30---how often the frog is handled -- are gloves used ( what kind of gloves) 
31---is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
30---has or was the frog properly quarantined (yes or no)
-----for how long
32---has the frog been treated with any medication:
-----for what
-----name of medication
-----for how long
-----what dose 
-----was medication prescribed by a herp vet

I shortened it for you, please answer them? I know it's a long list of questions, but if you want to help your frog then you need to help us help you :Wink:  




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## Cory

If you have not been using vitamins this is very good brand. And if you haven't I would go out as soon as you can and pick these up and get some into him, this is what i give my pacman and he loves it. :Smile:

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## Yury

Maybe this will help.
 Once every 3-4 days, my frog changing water.
 Usually frog has just such a form.



And after spraying water, urination occurs and the Frog here takes this form.
(Spraying water - stimulates urination).


It's just a water reserve.

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## MrsNoah

Thanx, Cory! I do use that calcium. I will look for the vitamins. He is feeling much better today. He's back to normal size! Yay!

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## MrsNoah

Limon is a pacman frog.I don't have another picture if his enclosure but it's about 5 gallonsI don't know the humidity levelIt's room temperature and he has a heat/uv lamp above him all the timeHe has a water bowl -I don't treat the waterHe is always buried under the substrate so I keep that oust for himThere is nothing else, plant or animal, living in the tankHe eats one adult (frozen) mouse cakcium covered about once a weekHe just ate Sunday and then bloated on Monday He poops regularlyWe don't hold him at all I'm his only owner He has never been to the vet and he's never had medicationHope that gives you what you wanted to know! He is much better today! Back to normal size! Yay!

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## Eli

How big is Limon? From the looks of it, it is time to get a ten gallon tank for him. 

A humidity and temperature gauge will really help you in taking better care of Limon  :Smile: 

Humidity should be 70-80% and the temps should be 80-83 fahrenheit during the day with a drop to 75-77 at night. 

As has been stated, you need to treat the water. 

Nightcrawlers are the best staple for pacman frogs. Dye free and dusted with calcium or vitamins. Depending on your frogs size, the schedule will differ. 

Mice should be restricted to once a month at the very most, if that. They are full of fat and eventually this will cause major health problems. Maybe even death. 

Maybe this has been posted but here is a caresheet on pacman frogs. Good luck!

http://www.frogforum.net/content/pac...-breeding-170/

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## DVirginiana

Glad you posted that, it sounds like you got bad info on how to care for him when you got him.  I know it can be tempting to think you've done it one way for so long with no problems, but when they start bloating like that it means things have reached a critical point and they will keep getting sicker and eventually die unless things are changed.

The tank is too small; assuming he's a male (you can check for nuptial pads on the back of his front feet if you're curious; yes means male, no means female) then he'll need about a ten gallon.  This is important in part because when they pee they pee a LOT; having the larger tank allows them to move both to get away from their own waste as well as to regulate their temperature.

Have you started treating the water?  If you don't this will keep happening and he'll die fairly soon.  It's probably the most important thing.  You'll need to change the substrate for some that's expanded with treated water, as well as the water dish.

The feeding is wrong as well.  You should never feed him a mouse older than a pinkie, and not more than once a month as a treat.  The fat content in mice is way too high and can cause liver damage and blindness.  Also no need to dust mice; they have calcium in the bones.
Crickets, nightcrawlers (from WalMart works fine), and dubia roaches all three make excellent staple foods.  It may take a couple weeks to get him to start taking those well, but it'll be worth it.  Those are by far healthier foods.

Also, temp needs to be 80-85 daytime and 75-80 nighttime.  Lower temps will eventually cause lymph failure.  Humidity should stay around 80%; dropping far below that will cause them to start hibernating.  You can buy an infrared thermometer for less than 20 dollars at most chain petstores-- those are the most accurate.

I hope that info helps get him on the right track and that he stops bloating up!  These frogs can live 10-20 years if taken care of properly, so making the changes will be worth it.

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## Cory

One more little thing I noticed you pointed out that no one else mentioned I think is the light your using. UV is not good for your frog because he is albino, it can really hurt there eyes and there skin. If you want to use a light as your way to heat his tank your safest bet with an albino is a red light. Glad to hear his bloat has came down abit.

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## MrsNoah

Oh! It is s red lamp on the frog! I was confused with the uv light for the snake! My bad!
Yes! We are all happy to see him feeling better! I really appreciated everyone's responses here! That was most helpful!

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## MrsNoah

WOW! I had no idea! Thsnx so much! We havecs 10 gallon at school. I will switch him out this weekend! Thanx for all of your helpful information! He will be happier soon! I'm glad!

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## MrsNoah

Very helpful information! Thank you so much! I will begin his new lifestyle right away!

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Room temp is much to low. They can not properly metabolize their food at temps in the low 70s. This level of temperature can mean humidity is not low because there is not a heat source to burn it off, but keep a close eye on him because extended periods at low temperatures can damage their lymph hearts causing water edema syndrome which was my first assumption after seeing the first picture. There is no cure for the disease only ways to treat it. Hopefully this is not the case because it results in a very short lifespan and the bloating can eventually cause kidney damage. I would keep everyone updated on the frog's status for a while and post any concerns or changes.

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## MrsNoah

Here is Limon's new digs! He seems to like it!

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## MrsNoah

What do you all think? Better?

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## DVirginiana

The size of the tank is better; if possible you should go back to using the type of substrate you were using before (of course expanded with treated water).  The problem with what you've got in there now is that it can cause serious issues if a large chunk is ingested, and they WILL eventually ingest bedding if they are in it long enough.  With the cocofiber, it's something that passes through the system easily so it isn't a big issue if they accidentally grab a mouthful of it.

The bloating does look a little better; still seems kind of bloated though.  Like Grif said, long-term low temps and exposure to untreated water can cause serious damage, so you may be looking at long lasting problems for this guy.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Change back to Coconut Fiber. That substrate you have now can cause an impaction if ingested. Substrate should be moist, but not muddy and any feces must be removed immediately. If bloating persists you will need a vet. Lasix can help with water retension, but must be peracribed by a vet.

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