# General Topics > General Discussion & News >  New Pacman-- Limey, setup critique, and help.

## Epedemik

My new buddy Limey has been with me for 5 days now. I have only been able to get it to eat one cricket every other day so far. It refuses any more. Turns away and/or takes a defensive posture.  It is also not very aggressive toward its food. But seems very alert and responsive toward me or its surroundings. I am looking for some general advice and wanted to ask if I should be trying to force it to eat more during each feeding?  

fyi-  Limey is only about an inch in length. Just a baby atm.

1.   Size of enclosure 

12x12x12 Exo Terra.

2.   # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences

Single

3.   Humidity

55% minimum throughout day

Misting twice daily too 80%+

4.   Temperature

Minimum 75 during the night cycle
Peaks at 82-83 during daytime. (Winter time atm, will adjust if summer cause more than 85)

5.   Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish

Using Reptisafe dechlorinated tapwater for the water bowl.
Was using distilled for misting (informed distilled could be detrimental for the frog) but have decided to use dechlorinated tap for misting also.

6.   Materials used for substrate

Soil is the substrate.

7.   Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
_- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.

This is a bioactive setup. There are biodegradables that could potentially cause impaction. I will be trying to feed it in a separate container. Small amount of very large leaf litter, sphagnum moss, some charcoal from springtail culture, and other biodegradables are inside the substrate. If the frog becomes more aggressive. I will move it to an environment with less risk of impaction.  Its seems to really like this setup. It has tried a few different burrow spots during the last week. Seems to like the large leaf litter for partially burrowing under. There is also a large golden pothos in the center of the tank. It seems to appreciate the large leafs of the pothos for shade and additional cover.  
8.    Main food source

Crickets

Right now I am offering a cricket everyday. Has only eaten 2 crickets in 5 days. I expect it to take one on the sixth day. The crickets are a little larger  than the width if the frogs eyes. They were gutloaded. 

9.    Vitamins and calcium? (how often)

Eventually when it starts eating better, I will try a dusting schedule like this:

M -- RepCal Calcium +Vit D3
T --
W -- Rep Cal Herptavite (multi-vit)
T-- 
F-- Rapashy Calcium PLus  every other week.   Rapashy Vitamin A, 1 out of every 4 weeks.  Rapashy Superpig (carotenoid sup) 1 out of every 4 weeks
S--
S--

10.   Lighting

Running a 10 hour day cycle and 14 hour night. 25w full spectrum for daytime.(good for plant, gives of no heat.)
 I am thinking of adding a night light (possible 15w-25w incandescent)  for a little additional heat and for night viewing.

11.   What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure

2 low wattage heat mats. One on the side and one on back of glass, in the same corner.

12.   When is the last time he/she ate

I have had the frog for 5 days and got it to eat 2 crickets. Both feedings it took the food from tongs.  Got it Tuesday and fed a cricket on Thursday morning and Saturday morning 2hrs before the day cycle started. The frog was not very aggressive during either feeding. Eventually it took a single cricket but refused any more. The first cricket was dusted with Herptavite. Both crickets were gutloaded.
13.   Have you found poop lately

I believe it pooped this morning ( Sunday). I have been putting it in the water bowl before I attempt to feed it.  The frog will sit there for 15-20 minutes.  I give it a bath with warm water and let it soak. Then I offer a cricket.

14.   A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)



Next time I attempt to feed I will get a picture of  Limey.

15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area.

Seems healthy as for as color, weight, and alertness. Seems to lack appetite. Lacks aggressiveness toward food.

16. How old is the frog

I would guess it absorbed its tail ~2 weeks before I purchased it.

17.   How long have you owned him/her

5 days

18.   Is the frog wild caught or captive bred

captive bred

19.   Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats

Just crickets so far. This is what it ate prior to me purchasing.

20.   How often the frog is handled

Once every 48hrs the first 4 days. Then I thought I should try and offer it food everyday since it is not eating a lot. So after the 4th day I handled it again the next morning.

21.   Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area

Low traffic

22.   Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

Bioactive Setup. I changed water bowl every other day or daily. depending on when I put him in to soak and feed.  Mist twice daily.

_

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## Epedemik

Well the 7th day now. Only got 2 crickets in him the first week. I think I am not going to try to feed him until I see him surface on his own. If that takes several days then so be it.
His size, shape, and color still look very normal. He is responsive to everything.  Monday night he did lunge a couple times toward food but seemed to get discouraged and not try anymore. The crickets I have are bigger than the space between his eyes. So, I ordered some worms and will try to offer different things whenever he surfaces and looks like he is waiting for food. 
I keep forgetting to grab a picture of him.  Will try to remember too.

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## Epedemik

ADMIN-Please move thread to Pacman Frog area. Sorry for inconvenience.

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## Epedemik

OK so the second week he ate once. 2 good sized butter worms.  About 9 days later he ate 3 butter worms. I basically had to put them in his mouth when I got him to open up. Just tong feeding him in the comfort of his cage. Hopefully the tongs will allow me to avoid impaction. 

He burrows and surfaces with regularity.  Seems to have trouble getting out of his water bowl. I have seen him get out on his own but the other day he staying in all day.  Before he only got in at night. So I helped him out. 


Say hello too Limey.

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## Bynny Ribbit

Limey is really cute! His setup looks wonderful. His reluctance could be stress related, it can take them a bit to acclimate. Also keep in mind that every frog is different; some like to eat in their tank, others do better being fed in a different container. My friend's frog required insistent pestering (being poked in the mouth with his food via tongs) for him to eat at first.

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## Misschic13

I have a Pac-Man about the same age as yours right now and he is choosing to only eat earthworms (and whole at that) maybe try offering those? They can get pretty picky! I wait for mine to come out on his own to feed him, with the large worms its about every other day. I sprinkle small amounts of calcium on the worm as he eats it. 




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## Epedemik

> Limey is really cute! His setup looks wonderful. His reluctance could be stress related, it can take them a bit to acclimate. Also keep in mind that every frog is different; some like to eat in their tank, others do better being fed in a different container. My friend's frog required insistent pestering (being poked in the mouth with his food via tongs) for him to eat at first.


That's the way I got him to eat the last feeding. I am going to stick to tong feeding in cage until he gets more regular. I might try to transition to feeding in a separate  container when he gets older. 
 He will be more prone to swallowing bark or moss then anyways.  Once he is eating regular it should be a bit easier to get him acclimated to the separate container.  Maybe I will try in a few months.

I have gone to a butter worm diet atm. I am also going to get him on night crawlers probably during the next feeding. With him getting stressed in the separate container and not eating, I am having trouble feeding crickets.  Leaving them in cage might be an option later on. But, impaction risk, Limey's terrible hunting skill, and loads of hiding and burrow areas for the crickets has turned me away from them. Also, they are a real pain to tong feed. They break apart easy and don't move much when you a good hold on them with the tongs.
So, I will make the night crawlers and butter worms his staple diet. With slight supplementation of calcium with D3, multi vit. and vit. A and caratanoid supp.  Might not use as much calcium supplement because of the butter worms. 

Here is an updated pic of his home. I reduced the amount of leaf cover so he as more surface area to pick a new burrow hole.  He has been changing his burrow hole a bit lately. I assume he is thermo-regulating and/or maybe urinating there. I have only seen him poop in the water bowl.

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## Epedemik

> I have a Pac-Man about the same age as yours right now and he is choosing to only eat earthworms (and whole at that) maybe try offering those? They can get pretty picky! I wait for mine to come out on his own to feed him, with the large worms it’s about every other day. I sprinkle small amounts of calcium on the worm as he eats it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yea I am not digging him up or anything.  Just going to offer him food when he surfaces or is half burrowed looking like he wants something to walk buy.  But he is not very aggressive so I basically have to get the food started when and if he opens up. So I guess I am force feeding I am just not prying his mouth open.  He just gets irritated enough to bite at it.

Is an earth worm the same as red wigglers?  Read the red wigglers can secrete something these species tend to not like.

Your frog is definitely fatter than mine. Surely his appetite will pickup soon.

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## Epedemik

BTW,
The pics of limey are 9 days after his last feeding. He looks skinny to me. But I don't see his bone structure or anything. During those 9 days he never surfaced or came up too be half burrowed.  On the 9th day I found him in his water bowl.  That day I got him to eat 3 butter worms. One dusted with vit A. which he wont get again for a month.

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## Bynny Ribbit

He might be a tiny bit skinny, but not dangerously so. I have seen other young pacman frogs who look that size. I will say that butterworms as a diet staple isn't a very good idea. They have a high fat content, which in the long term can cause liver damage and even create lipid deposits in their eyes and make them cloudy, which can eventually render them blind. Nightcrawlers are the opposite with no fat and highly nutritious, so I would highly recommend keeping those as a staple and saving butter worms as a treat only.

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## Misschic13

> Yea I am not digging him up or anything.  Just going to offer him food when he surfaces or is half burrowed looking like he wants something to walk buy.  But he is not very aggressive so I basically have to get the food started when and if he opens up. So I guess I am force feeding I am just not prying his mouth open.  He just gets irritated enough to bite at it.
> 
> Is an earth worm the same as red wigglers?  Read the red wigglers can secrete something these species tend to not like.
> 
> Your frog is definitely fatter than mine. Surely his appetite will pickup soon.


No red wrigglers aw different and most frogs hate the way they taste. Both of my pacs prefer Canadian night crawlers as they tend to be fatter and more juicy. My frog is fat in the photo because he had just eaten a 4 worm 


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## Epedemik

> He might be a tiny bit skinny, but not dangerously so. I have seen other young pacman frogs who look that size. I will say that butterworms as a diet staple isn't a very good idea. They have a high fat content, which in the long term can cause liver damage and even create lipid deposits in their eyes and make them cloudy, which can eventually render them blind. Nightcrawlers are the opposite with no fat and highly nutritious, so I would highly recommend keeping those as a staple and saving butter worms as a treat only.


Ok will do.  I can get night crawlers a lot easier anyway. I will just order butter worms occasionally. I thought about trying dubia roaches. But will prolly just use worms until he gets bigger

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## Epedemik

> No red wrigglers aw different and most frogs hate the way they taste. Both of my pacs prefer Canadian night crawlers as they tend to be fatter and more juicy. My frog is fat in the photo because he had just eaten a 4” worm Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok good deal. I will get some night crawlers and some earth worms today. See which he likes the best.

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Misschic13

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## Epedemik

5 days since Limey's last feeding of 3 butter worms.  
Tried to feed today. I am still having to force the food into his mouth IF he opens up. This time I got a butter worm in and he spit it out 3 times. I also got an earth worm in and he spit it out once and just let it crawl out the second time.
Its been almost 4 weeks and he should be acclimated to his environment and temps.
Everything I have read suggest baby pacmans should eat either daily or at least 2-3 times a week depending on size of meal.

I just cant get this little guy to eat much.  I am sure he has slowed his metabolism for winter. I don't see any signs of impaction or any other issues. Obvious ones anyways.

So is this ok can a baby pacman keep up this pace and be ok? 1 meal every 7-10 days??
He has been with my almost 4 weeks. I understand there still is the possibility of him getting acclimated to everything.  So when do I say enough is enough and make him eat more often? Or should I just let his will to live take its course? offer food and if eats he eats or if he doesn't he doesn't?

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## Epedemik

Well 48 hrs after his last feeding attempt with an attempt at a honey bath and an pedialite bath. Limey died.

To the TWO people who commented with tips/advice/suggestions THANK YOU VERY MUCH. (Bynny Ribbit and Misschic13)

For the 300+ views and no comments,.........(tempting to be very vulgar).
This lowers my opinion of this forum.  Not sure if I will be back here on my next Herp attempt.
My very first attempt at keeping an amphibian or keeping any Herp for that matter.  I am disappointed in the assistance I attempted to receive here.
 Think I will register on dendro board or find another forum.

Sorry if this offends some of the more active members here. 2 comments out 300+ views over two weeks is unacceptable to me.
Once again, thank you BynnyRibbit and Misschic13

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## Bynny Ribbit

I'm so sorry to hear Limey didn't make it. Also sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. It seems like there may have been an unseen problem with him which gave him no appetite. Your care was very good and I feel it may have happened despite all your effort. The initial stress could have made him sick or he could have come with it, it's always difficult to say in these situations. My friend's baby pacman didn't eat for nearly a month when she first got him and now he is thriving, so you never know what can happen. Only advice I can offer is to reconsider buying another Pacman from the same breeder and look around for reviews before buying from a certain source. 

I wouldn't take it to heart about people not commenting. This forum is not as active as it once was, never seems to be more than 5 members on at a time. And the members who do come on, not all of them own or have a knowledge of certain frogs, so they wouldn't be helpful in advising about them. You can also visit these forums without a membership which is actually how I started out; you can look all you want but you can't comment (part of the reason I registered), so I have a feeling your thread simply had many silent spectators. Part of it could be your thread wasn't in the general Pacman area, too...so there's a lot of factors going into why only Misschic13 and I commented. 

Another reason I joined and started responding to many threads was to encourage more discussion and to try and get this place more active again. I hope you aren't too discouraged, it was good of you to catalogue your journey with Limey and it may help many more people who only lurk on the forums for information.

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## Epedemik

> I'm so sorry to hear Limey didn't make it. Also sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. It seems like there may have been an unseen problem with him which gave him no appetite. Your care was very good and I feel it may have happened despite all your effort. The initial stress could have made him sick or he could have come with it, it's always difficult to say in these situations. My friend's baby pacman didn't eat for nearly a month when she first got him and now he is thriving, so you never know what can happen. Only advice I can offer is to reconsider buying another Pacman from the same breeder and look around for reviews before buying from a certain source. 
> 
> I wouldn't take it to heart about people not commenting. This forum is not as active as it once was, never seems to be more than 5 members on at a time. And the members who do come on, not all of them own or have a knowledge of certain frogs, so they wouldn't be helpful in advising about them. You can also visit these forums without a membership which is actually how I started out; you can look all you want but you can't comment (part of the reason I registered), so I have a feeling your thread simply had many silent spectators. Part of it could be your thread wasn't in the general Pacman area, too...so there's a lot of factors going into why only Misschic13 and I commented. 
> 
> Another reason I joined and started responding to many threads was to encourage more discussion and to try and get this place more active again. I hope you aren't too discouraged, it was good of you to catalogue your journey with Limey and it may help many more people who only lurk on the forums for information.



Thank you for the information. I was a little irritated that he didn't make it. Maybe I vented in the wrong place.

I did not realize you did not need to register to view this forum. That makes a lot more sense as far as the view to comment ratio.

When I think back I am pretty sure he might have been impacted before I got him.  I never saw poop. Thought I did in his water bowl.  He was so small I assumed his poop would be tiny.  Apparently they poop a pretty good amount even as babies. So I should have been able to definitely see it.  I think that if I would have realized this earlier I could have started honey baths sooner and/or pedialite baths.  I know this may or may not have made a difference.
 I will not abandon this forum just yet.

I will start a new journey with my new buddy Rosco.  He is a perty green cranwelli. He is about 2 months old. I am hoping he will be easier for me since he has had a good start so far.  He is much fatter, more lively, and seems to be very healthy.  He can make 2 jumps and be all the way across my 12x12.

I will make a new thread with ne updated pictures.  I will put the new thread in the proper Pacman section.

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## Bynny Ribbit

> Thank you for the information. I was a little irritated that he didn't make it. Maybe I vented in the wrong place.
> 
> I did not realize you did not need to register to view this forum. That makes a lot more sense as far as the view to comment ratio.
> 
> When I think back I am pretty sure he might have been impacted before I got him.  I never saw poop. Thought I did in his water bowl.  He was so small I assumed his poop would be tiny.  Apparently they poop a pretty good amount even as babies. So I should have been able to definitely see it.  I think that if I would have realized this earlier I could have started honey baths sooner and/or pedialite baths.  I know this may or may not have made a difference.
>  I will not abandon this forum just yet.
> 
> I will start a new journey with my new buddy Rosco.  He is a perty green cranwelli. He is about 2 months old. I am hoping he will be easier for me since he has had a good start so far.  He is much fatter, more lively, and seems to be very healthy.  He can make 2 jumps and be all the way across my 12x12.
> 
> I will make a new thread with ne updated pictures.  I will put the new thread in the proper Pacman section.


It's a very understandable reaction. Losing a pet when you put so much care into it is heartbreaking. 

Their poops can be surprisingly large, so that may have been the case if you weren't 100% sure about seeing any.

It's good to read you are having a good start with Rosco. You'll have to keep us updated on his progress. Best of luck!  :Frog:

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## Misschic13

Im so sorry to read this news  :Frown:  Im not very good at checking up on forums either. 

I agree with Bynny Ribbit there was likely a pre existing problem or impaction going on and you were fighting a losing battle. You really did try your best! If you do decide to have another frog maybe join the Pac-Man forum on Facebook? Its much more active. 


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