# General Topics > General Discussion & News >  What frogs/toads can I keep with fish?

## Scottyhorse

I am thinking I am going to completely redo my 25 gallon tank. Lately I've had this thing for frogs, but I think my parents would kill me right now if I set anymore tanks up SO.... I thought I would add a frog into the tank lol I'm open to anything, but I don't want african dwarf frogs or african clawed frogs. Planning on using driftwood and making a little gravel/sand thingymajig for them to get out of water.

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

What fish., 
Some cichlids are very aggressive. 

And some frogs will eat fish.

Especially american bullfrogs.
They will eat just about anything that they can fit in their mouths.
See
A story of a tuff american bullfrog from my local vet.

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

What fish., 
Some cichlids are very aggressive. 

And some frogs will eat fish.

Especially american bullfrogs.
They will eat just about anything that they can fit in their mouths.
See
A story of a tuff american bullfrog from my local vet.

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## Scottyhorse

Sorry, should have added that lol

neon and pristella tetras, cory cats, otos, platies, gold barbs, german rams

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## Aquarium

First of all hi, I am also new here and also a big fish aquarium enthusiast!  :Big Grin:  What sort of tanks do you currently have set up? I have fresh water, salt water and gold fish...a combined total of over 1100L! Anyway, I cant answer your question from experience as I am still in the lurking/researching phase but I have seen pictures of tree frogs (not sure of the specific variety, sorry) kept with things like tetras, but only about 5 (minimum schooling size). Frog species in relationship to required/safe water depth in relationship to potential for fish will need to be considered I guess. And of course...unfortunately, just because there is a picture floating around on the internet doesn't necessarily mean its a successful set up  :Frown:  

Good luck!  :Smile:

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## Carlos

> I am thinking I am going to completely redo my 25 gallon tank. Lately I've had this thing for frogs, but I think my parents would kill me right now if I set anymore tanks up SO.... I thought I would add a frog into the tank lol I'm open to anything, but I don't want african dwarf frogs or african clawed frogs. Planning on using driftwood and making a little gravel/sand thingymajig for them to get out of water.





> Sorry, should have added that lol
> 
> neon and pristella tetras, cory cats, otos, platies, gold barbs, german rams


Mixing frogs and fish usually ends badly and that does not count your "death by parents"  :Frog Surprise:  .  Taking out the DACF literally rules out the match, and even then, your Ram's and Gold barbs could be a problem if they pick on the dwarfs.  

Some members have kept Fire Bellied Toads with fish by using a large volume of water; but your toads could end up gobbling up the fish or if a Cory Cat get's stuck in their throat, die trying  :Frown:  .

My recommendation would be to consolidate your fish so a tank free's up and then convert that tank to a frog only set-up.  If you like idea, look at this Frog Forum - Choosing a Frog or tell us what size tank you have and we can propose a frog to keep in it.  Good luck  :Frog Smile:  !

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

Man I don't know how I echoed my self but I will agree with Carlos 100% 
When you consolidate some and free up a tank and let us know what size it is we can defiantly offer some ideas. 

BTW I have been keeping 7 ADF's with neons , ottos , corys , cherry barbs and shrimp for over 3 years with
no problems and actuality one of the ADF's and a cory are best buds and play with each other from time to time.

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## Scottyhorse

> First of all hi, I am also new here and also a big fish aquarium enthusiast!  What sort of tanks do you currently have set up? I have fresh water, salt water and gold fish...a combined total of over 1100L! Anyway, I cant answer your question from experience as I am still in the lurking/researching phase but I have seen pictures of tree frogs (not sure of the specific variety, sorry) kept with things like tetras, but only about 5 (minimum schooling size). Frog species in relationship to required/safe water depth in relationship to potential for fish will need to be considered I guess. And of course...unfortunately, just because there is a picture floating around on the internet doesn't necessarily mean its a successful set up  
> 
> Good luck!


Right now I have 6 freshwater tanks. 1 25Gal, 2 3Gal(Male Bettas), 1 5.5Gal(Male Betta and 3 Neon Tetras till they are large enough to go in the main tank), 1 1Gal (Red Cherry Shrimp) Plus a 'pond' outside with goldfish.

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## Scottyhorse

> Mixing frogs and fish usually ends badly and that does not count your "death by parents"  .  Taking out the DACF literally rules out the match, and even then, your Ram's and Gold barbs could be a problem if they pick on the dwarfs.  
> 
> Some members have kept Fire Bellied Toads with fish by using a large volume of water; but your toads could end up gobbling up the fish or if a Cory Cat get's stuck in their throat, die trying  .
> 
> My recommendation would be to consolidate your fish so a tank free's up and then convert that tank to a frog only set-up.  If you like idea, look at this Frog Forum - Choosing a Frog or tell us what size tank you have and we can propose a frog to keep in it.  Good luck  !


Well, I don't want any thing being eaten or killed in the tank, so it will probably be best to buy their own tank. I will be starting a fish room, and I recently decided to add some butterflies in their own enclosure thingy so why not add some frogs lol
I would probably end up with a ten gallon or twenty gallon. Probably a ten since I will be breeding fish. What types of frogs would be good for this? I would like dart frogs but I don't think I will go with them. I like bumble bee toads, fire belly toads, most frogs as long as they have color. I would also like to keep a group.

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## Scottyhorse

> Man I don't know how I echoed my self but I will agree with Carlos 100% 
> When you consolidate some and free up a tank and let us know what size it is we can defiantly offer some ideas. 
> 
> BTW I have been keeping 7 ADF's with neons , ottos , corys , cherry barbs and shrimp for over 3 years with
> no problems and actuality one of the ADF's and a cory are best buds and play with each other from time to time.



Good to know you have the same ideas!  :Frog Smile:

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## bill

> Well, I don't want any thing being eaten or killed in the tank, so it will probably be best to buy their own tank. I will be starting a fish room, and I recently decided to add some butterflies in their own enclosure thingy so why not add some frogs lol
> I would probably end up with a ten gallon or twenty gallon. Probably a ten since I will be breeding fish. What types of frogs would be good for this? I would like dart frogs but I don't think I will go with them. I like bumble bee toads, fire belly toads, most frogs as long as they have color. I would also like to keep a group.


if i read this right, you want to keep frogs in a 10 gallon tank that you also want to breed fish in? i hate to give you bad news, but a 10g is barely large enough to breed anything more than guppies comfortably, let alone keep frogs in it. as far as species go, darts are a terrestrial species and need land mass, not water. fbt's need minimum 50/50 land:water ratio, and i am not sure about the toads, but my experience tells me that they are also a terrestrial species. do yourself a huge favor and research the frogs you are interested in. not just ask questions on here, but really research the husbandry of any species you are interested in. 

and before you think i am just trying to talk you out of anything, i will tell you that i have been keeping frogs for a while now, and have kept aquariums for about 35 years. i have bred numerous species of fish a well as roughly 8 species of shrimp and a side kicker of cpo's. with all that said, frogs, i have found, have been the most challenging hobby in the glass cage world, and aren't to be taken on impulse. obviously, in the end, you will do as you wish, i just wanted to offer up some friendly advice.  :Smile:

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## Scottyhorse

> if i read this right, you want to keep frogs in a 10 gallon tank that you also want to breed fish in? i hate to give you bad news, but a 10g is barely large enough to breed anything more than guppies comfortably, let alone keep frogs in it. as far as species go, darts are a terrestrial species and need land mass, not water. fbt's need minimum 50/50 land:water ratio, and i am not sure about the toads, but my experience tells me that they are also a terrestrial species. do yourself a huge favor and research the frogs you are interested in. not just ask questions on here, but really research the husbandry of any species you are interested in. 
> 
> and before you think i am just trying to talk you out of anything, i will tell you that i have been keeping frogs for a while now, and have kept aquariums for about 35 years. i have bred numerous species of fish a well as roughly 8 species of shrimp and a side kicker of cpo's. with all that said, frogs, i have found, have been the most challenging hobby in the glass cage world, and aren't to be taken on impulse. obviously, in the end, you will do as you wish, i just wanted to offer up some friendly advice.


No, I was meaning the frogs would have their own tank. Most of the space will be taken up by fish tanks, so for now a ten gallon is probably what I should shoot for.. If in the end I end up having more room, then I will get a larger size, but for now I am shooting for a ten gallon  :Smile:  I just don't want to plan ahead for something bigger, then find out I can't fit it then be disappointed and have to change all my plans.

Oh and what you said about me doing research.. I will do that, but I would like to get your opinions on what species of frogs or toads would be best in this tank size based on experience, then I will research.. I prefer doing it this way then just reading on a website that may or may not be true.

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

I would set up the ten gallon for 20% water 80% land for firebelly toads.
three toads would the the max in that setup. 

Bill what do you think?

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## bill

> I would set up the ten gallon for 20% water 80% land for firebelly toads.
> three toads would the the max in that setup. 
> 
> Bill what do you think?


that sounds about right louis, i would probably go 70:30, but i am a water guy.....lol

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## bill

> No, I was meaning the frogs would have their own tank. Most of the space will be taken up by fish tanks, so for now a ten gallon is probably what I should shoot for.. If in the end I end up having more room, then I will get a larger size, but for now I am shooting for a ten gallon  I just don't want to plan ahead for something bigger, then find out I can't fit it then be disappointed and have to change all my plans.
> 
> Oh and what you said about me doing research.. I will do that, but I would like to get your opinions on what species of frogs or toads would be best in this tank size based on experience, then I will research.. I prefer doing it this way then just reading on a website that may or may not be true.


gotcha  :Smile:  i can tell you from experience, that i have successfully kept fish in tanks with white's tree frogs, mantellas and fbt's. of course, none of the enclosures were any smaller than a 20L. the white's were in a 125, mantellas are in a 40b and the fbt's were in a 20L

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## Scottyhorse

What is your opinion on bumble bee toads? It's not that I don't like FBT, we've had one before, but I would like to try something else.

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## Scottyhorse

Oh before I forget, do you have any pictures of your frog and fish setups? I'd loooove to see!

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## Carlos

> What is your opinion on bumble bee toads? It's not that I don't like FBT, we've had one before, but I would like to try something else.


If interested in Bumble Bee's, this is a good article to read:  Frog Forum - Bumble Bee Walking Toad - Melanophryniscus stelzneri (Weyenbergh, 1875) - Care and Breeding  :Frog Smile:  .

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## Scottyhorse

I'm really liking the Bumble Bee's... I think I could make a cool habitat for them in a ten gallon. I have a couple questions that the article didn't cover. What humidity do they like? Since they like a temp of 70-80 degrees, how should I heat the terrarium? My room is about 60 and under I think, I would have to check. The stupid AC unit likes to pump cold air into the basement.. LOL Would a reptile heating pad under the tank work best? Or something else?

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## bill

> Oh before I forget, do you have any pictures of your frog and fish setups? I'd loooove to see!


unfortunatey, i have no tanks set up at the moment, due to housing issues. but a friend of mine is caring for my white's and my mantellas. these are the most recent pics of those tanks:
http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...-my-tanks.html
the build log for my mantella tank:
http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...aludarium.html
the build log for my 125:
http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...aludarium.html
my madagascar hissing cockroach build:
http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...ach-coach.html
and a couple pics of my aquatics before i sold them:
30g shrimp tank. yellow neos and sss crs

and last, but not least, my 75g planted tank

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## bill

> I'm really liking the Bumble Bee's... I think I could make a cool habitat for them in a ten gallon. I have a couple questions that the article didn't cover. What humidity do they like? Since they like a temp of 70-80 degrees, how should I heat the terrarium? My room is about 60 and under I think, I would have to check. The stupid AC unit likes to pump cold air into the basement.. LOL Would a reptile heating pad under the tank work best? Or something else?


i'm not sure about the bumblebees. a quick search on the net should show some sort of care sheet that is more extensive than the one you already read. as far as heating goes, it all depends on how you design the tank. i will say this though. a heating pad under a vivarium is a bad idea, since most vivs have a bit of water at the bottom of the tank, due to misting and drainage from watering live plants. as you can imagine, hot glass and cool water are like oil and water, except oil and water won't leave your floor wet.....lol

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## Scottyhorse

Wowzer, you have some AMAZING tanks there!

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## Scottyhorse

> i'm not sure about the bumblebees. a quick search on the net should show some sort of care sheet that is more extensive than the one you already read. as far as heating goes, it all depends on how you design the tank. i will say this though. a heating pad under a vivarium is a bad idea, since most vivs have a bit of water at the bottom of the tank, due to misting and drainage from watering live plants. as you can imagine, hot glass and cool water are like oil and water, except oil and water won't leave your floor wet.....lol



lol.... so no heating pad then.. Haha. What I was thinking for the tank was making more of a sloping substrate, with a small pool of water at the front. I read 1/3 of the tank should be water, so maybe I will do a little more, and maybe a little trickling water fall? I don't know.. lol Thinking I will use coco coir and leaf litter. Underneath that dirt for the plants.

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## Scottyhorse

So, I just so happen to have a large size critter keeper available. Anything I can put in there? Or.... Will I end up with another terrarium?  :Frog Smile:

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## bill

> lol.... so no heating pad then.. Haha. What I was thinking for the tank was making more of a sloping substrate, with a small pool of water at the front. I read 1/3 of the tank should be water, so maybe I will do a little more, and maybe a little trickling water fall? I don't know.. lol Thinking I will use coco coir and leaf litter. Underneath that dirt for the plants.


that will work, but remember that you need a drainage layer at the very bottom, otherwise you will just have a bog condition, and they are fantastic for growing all kinds of nasty bacteria and fungii that wouldn't be good in such a confined space. you could always add a heating pad on the side or back of the tank for heat, but most people who have done that say that it isn't very effective. i can't speak with any experience on that. i prefer a false bottom and use an aquarium heater to heat the water which in turn heats the air. it's probably because im a fish guy...lol

as far as the critter keeper, some dart breeders keep their frogs in plastic shoe boxes for breeding, so i would guess a single or pair of thumbnails would possibly be ok in a large critter keeper. a baby pacman could be kept in on temporarily, but it will outgrow it extremely quickly. best bet would be to use the critter keeper to culture bugs for the frogs to eat and just add a terrarium for the frogs.  :Smile:

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

> you could always add a heating pad on the side or back of the tank for heat, but most people who have done that say that it isn't very effective.


To add to Bill's statement,
I have a 18X18X12 and use a medium zoomed heat mat on the side. In addition to a ceramic and infra red heat lamp.
controlled by a Zoomed HT-10 hygro-therm controller.

Being a field engineer for GE zenith I have access to a Thermal image camera and have noticed that the majority 
of the heat produced by the pad when it is on a vertical surface loses almost 40% of its heat to the out side air. 
Simply because of convection Heat wants to go up or at least heated fluids does. (yes air is a fluid.) 

But it still makes a difference.

IF you do plan on using a heat pad make sure that when you stick it to the glass that the glass is first cleaned with a good glass cleaner then use rubbing alcohol to clean the glass also. This will get rid of any oils.
When you apply the heat matt make sure that there little to no air bubbles in between the mat and the glass.

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## bill

man, Louis is wicked smart, right??  :Smile:  hey Louis, what are your thoughts on heat tape vs. a heat pad? and do you think you could prevent some thermal loss by covering it with some form of insulation? maybe something like mylar?

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

> man, Louis is wicked smart, right??  hey Louis, what are your thoughts on heat tape vs. a heat pad? and do you think you could prevent some thermal loss by covering it with some form of insulation? maybe something like mylar?


The only heat tape I have any experience with is the type used to keep pipe from freezing. 
I wouldn't cover it unless you put some kind of temp sensor on it to keep it from getting too hot.

BTW I am not smart just old.

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## bill

i was actually thinking of the heat tape for reptile tanks, but when you mentioned over heating when covering it up, i realized the flaw in my plan.

and smart is smart, but age brings wisdom  :Wink:  that's probably why my wife no longer calls me a smart a$$ and now calls me a wise a$$...LOL

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## Scottyhorse

lol... you guys are funny!! Hehe. So.. I don't have the money to buy a thermal image camera (though I have played with them, they are very cool  :Smile:  ) what would be the best option to heat the tank? I am guessing the light bulb would do it during the day, but for night? I could move it upstairs where it's about 70, but I don't think I would be allowed.. lol.. There's already a bird and a 40B fish tank up there!!

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

Depends on the size of the tank.
And I wouldn't move it around that will stress out the frog. 

Ok lets say you are getting a Pacman frog. 
and you have a 18X18X12 enclosure with a wire mesh top.
I would get two deep dome lamp holders and one with a 75W ceramic heat 
emitter that will put out radiant heat and no light. 
and a hygrotherm controller to turn on and off the heat source to keep
the temp at 80F during the day and 75F at night. 

Packmans don't need UV or any special light since they spend most of their time 
buried deep into the substrate with just the top of their head uncovered.
So a 65K 60W CLF bulb in the other lamp fixture with a timer would do the trick.

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## Scottyhorse

Hmm okay that makes total sense!! What about for a ten gallon with bumble bee toads?

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## Carlos

> I'm really liking the Bumble Bee's... I think I could make a cool habitat for them in a ten gallon. I have a couple questions that the article didn't cover. What humidity do they like? Since they like a temp of 70-80 degrees, how should I heat the terrarium? My room is about 60 and under I think, I would have to check. The stupid AC unit likes to pump cold air into the basement.. LOL Would a reptile heating pad under the tank work best? Or something else?


They prefer ventilated enclosures with low humidity per this care sheet: Josh's Frogs How-To Guides » Blog Archive » Bumble Bee Toad Care and Breeding.  Josh also sells them in singles or groups and he is a member here. 

In regards to heating; should not use reptile under tank heaters because frogs bury themselves to cool down.  You can use the mats on the side, but they are pretty inefficient.  I like the ceramic heat lamps, used in conjunction with a thermostat (if room temperature is variable) or a rheostat (if temp is steady).   Can also use incandescent red bulbs to provide heat 24 hours/day. Good luck  :Frog Smile:  !

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## Scottyhorse

> They prefer ventilated enclosures with low humidity per this care sheet: Josh's Frogs How-To Guides » Blog Archive » Bumble Bee Toad Care and Breeding.  Josh also sells them in singles or groups and he is a member here. 
> 
> In regards to heating; should not use reptile under tank heaters because frogs bury themselves to cool down.  You can use the mats on the side, but they are pretty inefficient.  I like the ceramic heat lamps, used in conjunction with a thermostat (if room temperature is variable) or a rheostat (if temp is steady).   Can also use incandescent red bulbs to provide heat 24 hours/day. Good luck  !


Okay, so I have decided I will not be breeding bettas this year since I am so busy. SO. That means I will have extra tank space!! Yipee! I'm thinking I will set two ten gal tanks up. Not sure what I want to keep in the ten gallon. Any suggestions? I am open to most anything. Don't mind color, don't mind if it is a single frog or a group, etc. I kinda think I would like a tree frog(s), but like I said, open to anything!!

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## Scottyhorse

So I think in the second tank I will be keeping reed frogs  :Smile:  I have read a little about them, but what's a good vivarium set up for them? How much water? Edit- Just heard back from Josh's frogs (where I will be getting quite a bit of stuff from, they said 2/3 water, but will utilize as much as you give them. Thinking of doing an island type thing? How would I make it stay in shape?  :Confused:  Oh I got an idea. Get a piece of egg crate, putting the felt over it, the whatever substrate I will be using (what would be best?) then siliconing it to the back corner of the viv. Since this will be mostly water, I will use mostly aquatic plants so I can hide any funky looking edges.

Also, I think I will be running a fogger on at least the reed frog tank for humidity, I think on the BBWT viv I will just mist it. 
For lighting I will be running a 26 watt CFL, with the UV is it? Heat lamp thingy. 

Sorry if I am hard to follow  :Stick Out Tongue:  When I start these builds I will make their own threads so I am not confusing you! lol

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## Scottyhorse

Another question. How do I clean coco fiber substrate? I think that's what I will use in the BBWT viv, with moss. In the reed frog viv I am just going with gravel.

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## Scottyhorse

Okay ANOTHER question heehee. I was wondering if in the BBWT viv I could just dump a spring tail culture in there for the frogs to feed off of? Then could I just feed them little dusted crickets and wingless fruit flies?

And what about rice flour beetles for the reed frogs?

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

you can spot clean like cat litter but you have to total replace at least every month or sooner, Your nose will 
tell you when. 
I recommend that you put a layer of fine non metallic screen to keep the eco earth or coco fiber from falling into the drainage 
gravel or expanded clay balls. 

When I do a total replace I use a wet dry vac to vacuum up the old. 
 I dig up my packman frog before  :Smile:   and let it soak while I do the clean up. 

as far as the feeders one of the other more learned members answer that one. 
but as far as beetles go I would be careful some are carnivorous and might bite your baby  :Frog Surprise: .

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## bill

wow, that's a lot of questions. i'll try to answer them, but i'll probably miss a few....lol

you can do an island tank very easily and cheaply. i actually designed one to go in a 40b, but never got around to building it completely. go to the dollar store and get a small plastic wastepaper basket. trim it to about an inch above your planned water level, fill it with a drainage layer (don't forget a drainage tube) and the substrate of your choice. it will actually be small enough that if you so choose, you can use gravel as a drainage layer. place that in a spot in the tank that you want it, and you have an instant island. trim it with some moss and plant some aquatics in front of it and no one will be the wiser. of course, you can still do egg crate easily enough. the way i described is just a very economical way of doing it, and it will keep the substrate dry.

a cfl rated at 6500k will provide sufficient lighting to any live plants you may keep in the viv, but will provide only the slightest amount of heat. the only heat will come from the attached ballast, not from the light itself, so you may want to plan for a supplemental heat source. as far as uvb lighting goes, it's not really necessary, but if you feel more comfortable having it, then by all means go for it. none of my tanks have uv lighting. they all run 6500k florescent lighting.

louis already covered the cleaning of coco fiber, but keep in mind, that phat phrogs require monthly substrate changes, but many other frogs do not, especially if you are keeping a live vivarium. with the addition of microfauna as a cleaning crew, you can just spot clean and do annual substrate changes. but as Louis said, the nose knows  :Smile: 

keeping a springtail culture in the tank as a primary food source most likely will not work. the frogs will diminish your culture very quickly. your best bet is to seed the tank with microfauna first, then wait about a month for them to populate the tank before adding the frogs. give them some time to establish themselves before adding the murderers....lol feed fruit flies as a primary food source, and they will snack on the springtails in between meals. the springtails just won't reproduce fast enough to keep up with the frog's appetites. the frogs will eat until they explode, if given the chance.....lol as far as rice flour beetles, i would only feed the larvae.

hope i got most of your questions answered  :Smile:

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## Scottyhorse

> you can spot clean like cat litter but you have to total replace at least every month or sooner, Your nose will 
> tell you when. 
> I recommend that you put a layer of fine non metallic screen to keep the eco earth or coco fiber from falling into the drainage 
> gravel or expanded clay balls. 
> 
> When I do a total replace I use a wet dry vac to vacuum up the old. 
>  I dig up my packman frog before   and let it soak while I do the clean up. 
> 
> as far as the feeders one of the other more learned members answer that one. 
> but as far as beetles go I would be careful some are carnivorous and might bite your baby .


So I could put a drainage layer down instead of a false bottom? Yes!! All of this is a lot to take in, and not needing to make a false bottom will be nice! So when I replace the first layer, how do I get all the water out? Or do I leave it?

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## Scottyhorse

> wow, that's a lot of questions. i'll try to answer them, but i'll probably miss a few....lol
> 
> you can do an island tank very easily and cheaply. i actually designed one to go in a 40b, but never got around to building it completely. go to the dollar store and get a small plastic wastepaper basket. trim it to about an inch above your planned water level, fill it with a drainage layer (don't forget a drainage tube) and the substrate of your choice. it will actually be small enough that if you so choose, you can use gravel as a drainage layer. place that in a spot in the tank that you want it, and you have an instant island. trim it with some moss and plant some aquatics in front of it and no one will be the wiser. of course, you can still do egg crate easily enough. the way i described is just a very economical way of doing it, and it will keep the substrate dry.
> 
> a cfl rated at 6500k will provide sufficient lighting to any live plants you may keep in the viv, but will provide only the slightest amount of heat. the only heat will come from the attached ballast, not from the light itself, so you may want to plan for a supplemental heat source. as far as uvb lighting goes, it's not really necessary, but if you feel more comfortable having it, then by all means go for it. none of my tanks have uv lighting. they all run 6500k florescent lighting.
> 
> louis already covered the cleaning of coco fiber, but keep in mind, that phat phrogs require monthly substrate changes, but many other frogs do not, especially if you are keeping a live vivarium. with the addition of microfauna as a cleaning crew, you can just spot clean and do annual substrate changes. but as Louis said, the nose knows 
> 
> keeping a springtail culture in the tank as a primary food source most likely will not work. the frogs will diminish your culture very quickly. your best bet is to seed the tank with microfauna first, then wait about a month for them to populate the tank before adding the frogs. give them some time to establish themselves before adding the murderers....lol feed fruit flies as a primary food source, and they will snack on the springtails in between meals. the springtails just won't reproduce fast enough to keep up with the frog's appetites. the frogs will eat until they explode, if given the chance.....lol as far as rice flour beetles, i would only feed the larvae.
> ...



Haha sorry, being a newb sucks. lol

That's a good idea of the island. Do you have any pictures of it, or making it, or the workings of it? That would be a lot cheaper. 

The reason I wanted to do a cfl is because I use them on a lot of my planted fish tanks and emersed tubs for plants, so I figured I would use one on this. I guess about the uvb bulb, I was thinking about the ceramic heat emmiter bulb. So never mind about that. lol

So since I am most likely keeping BBWT and Blue Black Reed Frogs, would those be considered 'phat phrogs'? If not, how often should I change the substrate for my frogs/toads? And I will be having live plants like I said. 

What do I use for a cuc? I always like having a clean up crew  :Smile:  
That make sense with the spring tails. But what about when I change all the substrate out? Wouldn't that get rid of them all?

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## Scottyhorse

Why oh why do I need to like the expensive hobbies?  :Disturbed:  This is going to be one expensive ten gal tank.. Then I am going to make another! Hahahaha

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## Scottyhorse

Oh I have another question  :Embarrassment: 

Can I use sand for the aquatic part of the reed frog viv? In the pool of the BBWT viv I am just going to use fine gravel.

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## bill

sorry, i never got around to building that tank, and i rarely ever sketch up plans ahead of time. i see a vision in my head of what i want a tank to look like and then i build it. i'm kind of a savant when it comes to building tanks....lol

sorry, fat frogs are frogs like pacmans and pyxies. your clean up crew can be springtails, isopods (pillbugs) or both. if you use just springtails, and you come upon a substrate change, just soak the old substrate in water, the springtails will float, if there are any the toads/frogs hadn't devoured already....lol

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## Scottyhorse

> sorry, i never got around to building that tank, and i rarely ever sketch up plans ahead of time. i see a vision in my head of what i want a tank to look like and then i build it. i'm kind of a savant when it comes to building tanks....lol
> 
> sorry, fat frogs are frogs like pacmans and pyxies. your clean up crew can be springtails, isopods (pillbugs) or both. if you use just springtails, and you come upon a substrate change, just soak the old substrate in water, the springtails will float, if there are any the toads/frogs hadn't devoured already....lol



Oh lol that's alright. Would the paper basket be right side up, or upside down? And what do you mean about a drainage tube?

Thanks, that make sense about the clean up crew.

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## bill

right side up, like a bucket. a drainage tube is for removing excess water. an airline with a piece of sponge on the end will suffice. place that on the bottom, add a couple inches of gravel, then substrate for the plants.

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## Scottyhorse

Oh okay.For the drainage tube, where would I put it at? Top, bottom, middle?

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## bill

bottom......here's a link to a thread where i made up a quickie sketch about the same thing
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-crickets.html

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## Scottyhorse

Okay so then I should just get a little pump to drain the water out? Sounds easy enough.

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## bill

nah, just siphon it out using good old fashioned lung power. you may not even have to ever do that, since it will be more like a flower pot instead of an entire viv bottom. but it will be a nice feature to have in case you do need it.  :Smile:  and if you place a valve on the end of the, and keep it below the bottom of the tank line (outside the tank of course), after you siphon once, just close the valve. next time you need to siphon, open the valve, and voila, instant drainage.

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## Scottyhorse

> nah, just siphon it out using good old fashioned lung power. you may not even have to ever do that, since it will be more like a flower pot instead of an entire viv bottom. but it will be a nice feature to have in case you do need it.  and if you place a valve on the end of the, and keep it below the bottom of the tank line (outside the tank of course), after you siphon once, just close the valve. next time you need to siphon, open the valve, and voila, instant drainage.



But what is I don't want frog water in my mouth?  :Frown:  lol 
I'm just glad I don't need to make a false bottom, one less thing to confuse me...lol I'll put the tube and sponge in in case I need it. 
Should I use clay balls, pea gravel, or what for the drainage layer?

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

> But what is I don't want frog water in my mouth?  lol 
> I'm just glad I don't need to make a false bottom, one less thing to confuse me...lol I'll put the tube and sponge in in case I need it. 
> Should I use clay balls, pea gravel, or what for the drainage layer?


If you get a valve or a locking pare of forceps you can use a turkey baster to apply suction 
and don't drain all the water out so you can keep the prime on the siphon. 
Then use the valve or locking forceps to stop the flow of water. 

Also if you put the drainage tube with the sponge at the back of the tank on the very bottom. 
I would raise the front by 5mm or so to make the water go to the back where the tube is. 

Now on the choice of drainage material, I would use the clay pellets since they are porous 
and can hold some moisture to help keep the humidity stable.

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