# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) >  how many bumblebee darts can go in a 10 gallon?

## spires33

ok i am planning on getting a bigger tank someday.... maybe if i can afford it
and also if i just got some pathos for now and covered the tank bottom with it would this be ok?

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## PubFiction

Depends on what you mean by someday. If you plan to upgrade a vivarium in a year or so you can probably get away with 4 froglets. When they start to mature they will need more space. If you don't know if they might stay in the 10 gallon for years then you can only fit one in there by the 10 gallon / frog dogma.

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## spires33

ok thanks i had a feeling it was a 1 for a 10 gallon but i kept reading 2 (i even read three O.o) and i could only get 1 at first anyways so its all good  :Big Grin:

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## PubFiction

Well success with frogs is variable and some people just put their frogs in a more cramp space. Also people often have more success if frogs grow up together. But the 10 gallon per frog is a fairly accepted and safe bet. But if you are new to dart frogs then its best to stick with the safe bet and actually sticking with one could be good because you will not have to deal with aggression issues.

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## Lynn

Hello

I agree with the good information you have been given. 
I do have one additional question "bumble bee dart frogs" ??
If you mean _D leucomelas_ then you really done need to worry about aggression as they do well in a small group.
( with bigger living quarters) 

Leucs are a great starter frog and very entertaining, to say the least.
You might squeak 2 into the 10 gallon. You should not mix the Leuc 'morphs'--> they will breed and you'll have ....well a mess of offspring no one will want.

Keep in mind... they love to climb; keep an eye on the rim when you open up  :Frog Surprise: 

The pothos is fine. They will find cover under that. Simply give them a little hide to tuck into.

 :Butterfly:

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## spires33

ok thanks i mean these https://www.google.com/search?q=bumb...ed=0CAcQ_AUoAg

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## Lynn

> ok thanks i mean these https://www.google.com/search?q=bumb...ed=0CAcQ_AUoAg


Those are D leucomelas   :Smile: 
-as mentioned in post #5

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## bill

Somebody should have warned you, we don't do common names, only Latin when it comes to darts lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## spires33

haha ok just my spelling is terrible so i try to avoid long words

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## bill

I know the feeling. And autocorrect normally kicks my butt when typing out Latin names  :Frown: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Ryan

copy and paste is always my friend when it comes to long scientific names  :Smile:

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## PubFiction

Spell it right once, then add it to your dictionary on your phone or PC, from here on out auto correct is on your side.

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## bill

I'm too stubborn to add stuff to the dictionary. And it seems like every update, Apple screws me and my dictionary goes bye bye lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Lynn

> haha ok just my spelling is terrible so i try to avoid long words


It's me again, 

You can call your frogs what ever you want to  :Big Grin: 
I refer to my leucs as "mountain goats" because they _think_ they're tree frogs.

Actually, I _assumed_ you were talking about D leucomelas. 
It could have been _bumble bee walking toads_  ( Melanophryniscus stelzneri ) that are the same colors but in need of completely different care.

If you think the spelling is bad .... the pronunciation is worse.
Billy can do it on the fly !
I, on the other hand need the _Anura_ version of 'Rosetta-Stone'  :Big Grin: 

Good luck with them ----keep us posted

 :Butterfly:

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## spires33

:Frown: 
well... im not sure if the breeder is going to get back with me....
you guys know where i could get lower shipping rates? or where they are super cheap and have a live arrival guarantee?
really stinks about this.. the breeder lives like 10 minutes away from me  :Frown:

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## PubFiction

Safe shipping of frogs is expensive no matter what especially in the winter, if you list your location we might be able to find you someone whom is close.

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## spires33

illinois

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## PubFiction

If you are in Chicago there are tons of people and about 1 person in every other city. 
Look at this link 
https://6e5b0f46ade905729a2ddeb50f20...nses.Data.json

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## Happy Frog

As far as your original question, think of it like this...You are now living in your clothes closet.  Once a day the doors are open and you are fed and given water.  You'd like to move about some but there really isn't enough room to jump, do sit-ups, or even stretch.

You could successfully keep 2 D. Leucomela in a ten gallon tank if you designed it right, but why do it.  No frog lives within a 20"x10" footprint for any length of time.  A ten gallon tank is fine as a quarantine container or to grow-out froglets but it's not really a good choice for Leucs.  One reason is that they like to climb too much.

You are better off getting a 20 gallon tall.  Please do not try and cut corners in regards to trying to saving money.  It's better to wait and save up enough money for all the good quality components that you will need for the tank then just trying to throw something together and getaway with it.  Whenever I plan on setting up a new enclosure the first thing I do is buy the right size enclosure for the frogs I want to keep.  Then maybe a week or two later I buy the ABG mix and the micro fauna.  Maybe another couple weeks later I'll buy all the plants and leaf litter and wood features that I'll be using.  Then after everything is put together I wait.  I wait for at least 4-5 weeks for everything to grow in and for all the micro fauna to establish itself.

The shake and bake approach that most beginners attempt to getaway with doesn't fly with me!  I am saying this in general and to anyone thinking about getting into dart frogs; if supplies, frogs and shipping are too expensive for you then maybe this isn't the right animal for you.  I hear PacMan frogs are fun!!!

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## spires33

> As far as your original question, think of it like this...You are now living in your clothes closet.  Once a day the doors are open and you are fed and given water.  You'd like to move about some but there really isn't enough room to jump, do sit-ups, or even stretch.
> 
> You could successfully keep 2 D. Leucomela in a ten gallon tank if you designed it right, but why do it.  No frog lives within a 20"x10" footprint for any length of time.  A ten gallon tank is fine as a quarantine container or to grow-out froglets but it's not really a good choice for Leucs.  One reason is that they like to climb too much.
> 
> You are better off getting a 20 gallon tall.  Please do not try and cut corners in regards to trying to saving money.  It's better to wait and save up enough money for all the good quality components that you will need for the tank then just trying to throw something together and getaway with it.  Whenever I plan on setting up a new enclosure the first thing I do is buy the right size enclosure for the frogs I want to keep.  Then maybe a week or two later I buy the ABG mix and the micro fauna.  Maybe another couple weeks later I'll buy all the plants and leaf litter and wood features that I'll be using.  Then after everything is put together I wait.  I wait for at least 4-5 weeks for everything to grow in and for all the micro fauna to establish itself.
> 
> The shake and bake approach that most beginners attempt to getaway with doesn't fly with me!  I am saying this in general and to anyone thinking about getting into dart frogs; if supplies, frogs and shipping are too expensive for you then maybe this isn't the right animal for you.  I hear PacMan frogs are fun!!!


actually the other day i saw a 40 gallon for 90$.. if its still on sale i'm getting it

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## spires33

> If you are in Chicago there are tons of people and about 1 person in every other city. 
> Look at this link 
> https://6e5b0f46ade905729a2ddeb50f20...nses.Data.json


jason is who i contacted :/ he is the only one i wouldn't have to drive 2 hours for... well i think he might get more in april :/

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## bill

> actually the other day i saw a 40 gallon for 90$.. if its still on sale i'm getting it


Is it a 40 breeder? Does it come with a stand? I only ask because with the $1/gallon sale at petco right now (until the 24th), you can get a 40b for $40. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## spires33

> As far as your original question, think of it like this...You are now living in your clothes closet.  Once a day the doors are open and you are fed and given water.  You'd like to move about some but there really isn't enough room to jump, do sit-ups, or even stretch.
> 
> You could successfully keep 2 D. Leucomela in a ten gallon tank if you designed it right, but why do it.  No frog lives within a 20"x10" footprint for any length of time.  A ten gallon tank is fine as a quarantine container or to grow-out froglets but it's not really a good choice for Leucs.  One reason is that they like to climb too much.
> 
> You are better off getting a 20 gallon tall.  Please do not try and cut corners in regards to trying to saving money.  It's better to wait and save up enough money for all the good quality components that you will need for the tank then just trying to throw something together and getaway with it.  Whenever I plan on setting up a new enclosure the first thing I do is buy the right size enclosure for the frogs I want to keep.  Then maybe a week or two later I buy the ABG mix and the micro fauna.  Maybe another couple weeks later I'll buy all the plants and leaf litter and wood features that I'll be using.  Then after everything is put together I wait.  I wait for at least 4-5 weeks for everything to grow in and for all the micro fauna to establish itself.
> 
> The shake and bake approach that most beginners attempt to getaway with doesn't fly with me!  I am saying this in general and to anyone thinking about getting into dart frogs; if supplies, frogs and shipping are too expensive for you then maybe this isn't the right animal for you.  I hear PacMan frogs are fun!!!


also
not my first frog i have had fire bellies whites and green tree frog.
i was like 6 at the time... i knew nothing
i am here to learn 
and i am willing to pay shipping but i am wanting to avoid it for price and for stress on the animal

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## spires33

> Is it a 40 breeder? Does it come with a stand? I only ask because with the $1/gallon sale at petco right now (until the 24th), you can get a 40b for $40. 
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


i have heard about that, i had my mom check it out and they don't have a sale.. mabye the other one in my area does.

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## spires33

ok got the 40 gallon... forgot the lid -.-

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## spires33

alrighty!
i picked the lid up and i got 50 pounds of gravel... i think i am going to need more gravel....
anyone know where i can get a stand for this dang thing XD
by the time i get this terrarium done i wont be able to get the frog.

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## Aldross

You don't really want gravel or a lid that you can buy in stores.
Check this out for some help. 
http://www.neherpetoculture.com/vivariumconstruction101
As for the lid it needs to be mostly glass with a couple inch vent built it.

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## spires33

> You don't really want gravel or a lid that you can buy in stores.
> Check this out for some help. 
> New England Herpetoculture LLC - Vivarium Construction 101
> As for the lid it needs to be mostly glass with a couple inch vent built it.


they wont be on the gravel.
its for the false bottom

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## Aldross

> they wont be on the gravel.
> its for the false bottom


Yea. I get what it is for. The reason I am saying you don't want gravel is that because of it your tank will weight 3 times more than it needs to. MOST people use either egg crate or LECA. It gives more space for the water to go and weights a great deal less.

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## bill

Gravel is a perfectly acceptable media to use for a drainage layer. LECA is becoming obsolete. Even the hydroponics stores (the most common use for leca is in hydroponics) are phasing it out. It's being replaced by more sustainable resources, such as growstone, which is basically made from recycled glass. 

Weight, I never understood this issue. I see this as the most common reason to use leca. Unless you are moving tanks, weight really isn't an issue. Especially when dealing with an aquarium versus a commercial terrarium such as an exoterra. They are designed to handle more weight that the 50lbs of gravel the op plans on putting in there. In fact, I only use River pebbles, and have never had an issue with breaking tanks. The only other issue where I can weight being an issue is if the stand the tank is on isn't up to the job. Well, that would be an issue no matter what then. 

As far as more space for water to go, I will say that gravel won't hold as much volume of water in the drainage layer,  but all that means is you have to siphon out excess water more often, or drill for automatic drainage. Remember, the drainage layer is there to store water you do not want in your substrate, so realistically, any material that will not break down over time is acceptable to use. The article your referenced is an excellent one. The folks at NE Herp are excellent, but I am sure that even they will admit that there is always more than one way to do something in this hobby.   :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Aldross

I'm not saying it won't work but I do know that I don't want my rack to  weight nearly that much. I also do not build my tanks where they will stay. Moving them from my work room to the frog room would kill my back.
I knew about the expanded glass but to someone new  LECA  is an easier forum search. Have never heard that it was becoming obsolete though.

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## bill

That's why I always finish my builds on my racks. Drainage and substrate go in after my tanks are placed. I too have back issues, so I make it as easy as I can on it  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Vivariums In The Mist

Many of my builds go to expos, so I always build them as light as possible. For most, as long as you have drainage, whatever works for you is the way to go.

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## Paul

I do a mix of growstone and Rock drainage layer. I (like bill) will do my background work in a place my wife has designated "mine to ruin" and then carry the tank to it's final resting place and add the drainage layer, soil, and plants. I too have back problems so I also make it as easy on myself as I can  :Smile: 

Weight to me only comes into the conversation when I am thinking about what the shelf or stand can handle.

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## spires33

ok took the gravel back the other day because i read that the shiny rocks can let off chemicals that kills your plants

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## bill

> ok took the gravel back the other day because i read that the shiny rocks can let off chemicals that kills your plants


Really now? Got reference material for that? That's one I have never heard. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## spires33

> Really now? Got reference material for that? That's one I have never heard. 
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


it was a book on making terrariums for reptiles and amphibians .
not naturally shiny rocks but rocks that have stuff added to them.
i doubted it  but better safe than sorry right?

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