# Frogs & Toads > Other Frogs & Toads >  malaysian horned frog!

## Lija

Going home with me tomorrow!!!! and the only reason i didn't get it today was because i wasn't going home and that I figured i better do research on them first  :Smile:   i thought they not available on a pet trade, and definitely not in Canada, I was totally shocked seeing them in the store. 

 does anybody knows anything specific to those frogs that would be different from other horned frogs? the frog is WC. I've read that their horns are very soft and  can be easily damaged and infected, so nothing that can damage in the terrarium should be a must + 3 sides covered to reduce stress. I've also read that you can keep a few in the same tank, which is weird for a horned frog and doesn't sound right.

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## Pluke

You're really lucky, I've yet to see those at a show.. definitely on my want list. They're not a Ceratophyrs Horned frogs, they're a whole different species (Megophyrs Nasuta) unrelated to the pacman frogs. I've read their care is a little more difficult than some frogs, but it still doesn't seem that hard. Probably no harder than your waxy monkeys. I remember seeing a guide somewhere I'll see if I can find it for you.

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## Pluke

Malaysian Horned Frogs

That's a pretty good read. I'm pretty jealous right now.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Lija

> You're really lucky, I've yet to see those at a show.. definitely on my want list. They're not a Ceratophyrs Horned frogs, they're a whole different species (Megophyrs Nasuta) unrelated to the pacman frogs. I've read their care is a little more difficult than some frogs, but it still doesn't seem that hard. Probably no harder than your waxy monkeys. I remember seeing a guide somewhere I'll see if I can find it for you.



 oh come on, waxys are the easiest to keep :lol: 

 I'm still confused  care sheet says it is ok to keep a few in one tank, hm...

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## Lija

:lol: sorry to whoever moved the thread,  you're right it belongs here, I was too excited:lol:

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## Maharg

Lol Lija you saw it to! We are really peeving griff off now, us Calgarians. Did you see my post below? It was moved from Pacman section to other frogs and toads as well.

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## Pluke

You can house them together because they can't bite or hurt each other like Ceratophyrs Horned frogs would.

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## Heather

These are some great frogs. I love their facial features and horns. I hope you'll post some pictures  :Smile: .

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## Lija

> These are some great frogs. I love their facial features and horns. I hope you'll post some pictures .


 Oh yeah!!! i will and a lot, gosh i went for hormworms and the only reason I didn't get a frog is that i wasn't going home and sitting in car for 2 hours in cold not really a good idea  :Smile:  running through the city in 10 minutes to get, just not sure about should i get one or 2 :lol:

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## Pluke

I think the obvious answer is two.  :Wink:

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## Lija

> I think the obvious answer is two.


  :lol: i kinda think so too, I have an empty 12x12x12 that I was going temporarily use until i do naturalistic 18x18x18, sooo excited, but i also can borrow 18x18x24 for temporary use. advice though needed. based on that care sheet 10 gal for 1 frog + 5 extra for every additional frog, so would you think 18x18x18 would be a good size for 2? my family will kill me :lol: a promise not to get anything this year goes down the drain big time :lol:

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## Lija

here you go

 they're still in temporary container, planning on doing naturalistic set up with waterfall and stuff  :Smile:  will do a better pics later

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## Pruvmerong

Did you get it from J&J's? Thought I seen one just like it when I was there on the weekend.

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## Lija

yes from J&J  :Smile:

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## Heather

They're awesome!!!

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Lija

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## Lija

you know what is weird - they both are keeping close to each other and look in a same direction most of time for hours, now they're sleeping together, looks like they are communal after all.

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## Pluke

Grats on the new frogs, I'm jealous. :P

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## Lija

> Grats on the new frogs, I'm jealous. :P


looking at your avatar i'm jealous too :Smile:

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## Starforce2

have you observed them eating? I am curious to know if they eat more like a bullfrog or toad, leaping at prey and catching fast things like a cricket, or if they just sit there and grab what comes in front of them like a pacman does? I assume they are a bit more mobile than a pacman (with regards to when they are full grown). Feeding my pacman a cricket would be silly. I can order them from backwater reptiles though it's far too cold right now for me to risk ordering animals from the mail. Their live arrival is void right now anyways. I'd be shocked to see this in a store too. Heck, petco can't even keep decent leopard geckos and their supply of night crawlers in their fridge are dated aug and oct 2012 and have decomposed in their packages.

ANd pluke..that's the new blue morph pac aint it? What do they call it? I've heard of high red and green apple on backwater but they offered no pix. I bet they're expensive!

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## Pluke

The pacman you see in my avatar is a Samurai blue, he was kind of expensive because I bought him as an adult. You should talk to mikesfrogs he has some that will be available here pretty soon I think, little froglets.  :Smile:

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## Lija

they pretty similar to pacs, they just sit there and lunge, can catch cricket from quite far in comparison to pacman. they move a little, but not much and always at night. i have one smaller, that one moves more. why are you saying it is silly to feed crickets to your pac, it is very entertaining to watch how a very big pac would go for tiny in comparison cricket, I always give mine once in a while to stimulate hunting instincts.

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## Lija

picture update  :Smile:

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## Starforce2

I was saying silly to feed him crickets cuz he can't catch them. Superworms though and fun to watch him go for.

I am curious, what do you use for a night observation bulb? I use this purple moon bulb for my cresties. I am currently looking for an LED option so I can have some glow on my other night animals so I can watch them a bit better. I am not sure which spectrum they can't see well in. Usually for animals it's red but I was told for some reptiles it's blue.

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## Pluke

Very nice Lija. I take it you're happy with them? Are they very hard to care for? Have run into any problems with them as far as husbandry goes?

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## Lija

I was lucky enough to find a guy in Canada who used to breed them, he helped me a lot to set up the enclosure and gave a lot of how to tips. Out of 2 initial ones none survived, something weird was going on that can be related to stress, it also looked similar to mycobacteriosis, may be that was combination of both.

 those are different frogs, one i got from the same pet store injured, he survived and got better, another 2 i just happened to come across in another store on a Christmas sale  :Smile: 

 I'd say they are really easy to take care, if they're healthy. good thing that they don't need high temps, so it is easier to maintain climate needed in comparison to other frogs. 
 right now they seem to be very happy, eating like pigs. really funny to watch them interact, they are communal, always together, even looking same direction most of the time. very interesting frogs in their behavior and definitely looks. 

 Starforce2, i suggest you check pacman frog section, you'll find a lot of info on pacs. not wanting to derail this thread i will tell you however that superworms are  bad for pacmans as they posses very high risk of impaction due to high chitin content.

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## Starforce2

I wonder if their communal behavior has anything to do with the fact that they resemble leaves? Maybe its a defense mechanism.

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## Starforce2

ANy updates on how they are doing or pix in their completed setup? I'd like to see how you are housing them.

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## Lija

they are doing awesome, eat like pigs, 20 + crickets for all every second day. sometimes they are very funny sitting with open mouses, no idea what that means, but if i put a nightcrawler in they look very happy eating it  :Smile: 

they are now in temporary tank, waiting for another shelving to arrive, and then i will set up their permanent home. so far their set up looks like that:  layer of moss, bigger layer of eco earth, dry leaves on top, cork pieces on a ground and couple cork hides, but they all use just one and sit together, even facing one direction all the time.  They also have a big shallow water bowl and artificial plants. In their permanent home I'm planning to do a waterfall, false bottom, live plants and get some springtails going. I'll take some pics once it's done :Smile:

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## Starforce2

I'll be looking fwd to seeing that. You should try getting a vid of them feasting if you got anything that shoots good video.

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## Pezsas

very cool frogs, I've seen them only once, and they were fairly expensive, but they are awesome. I am looking forward to seeing your set up.

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## Heather

Lija, they are really neat! I'll definitely be looking forward to seeing them in their permanent home  :Smile: . Are you going to make a build thread along the way? Any new photos? Such cute faces!  :Big Grin:  How big are they now?

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## Eric Walker

> You can house them together because they can't bite or hurt each other like Ceratophyrs Horned frogs would.


I don't know where you came up with this but this specie has been known to have adult females attempt to eat adult male.   Males are smaller and these guys have large mouths.  Iv actually seen pictures of a males back legs hanging out of a females mouth.    They can do just fine in groups but this is something to keep in mind.   Most attempts at breeding involve people keeping males separate and introducing them just for breeding.  Then removing afterwards.

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## Lija

these guys do have big mouths, but they are delicate as well, they can't bite like pacman or other big frogs, i highly doubt if nasutas would go for mice, they eat only what they can in one gulp, nightcrawler if they eat it, get inhaled literally without them closing their mouth fully, but just one out of mine would eat it. the person that I mentioned and who used to breed nasutas  a few years ago, kept his in a big group, females and males together and now when i have them I'm convinced they love to live in groups. they behave like I've never seen frogs, except waxies, they always sit together and most of the time look same direction. if stressed out, they would sit together too, need to take pics, cos I've never seen frogs do that, they sit almost human like, on a butt with body absolutely straight, one in a front and the rest would pile up on his back, so they altogether look like one unit, may be it is their defense mechanism, very interesting frogs for sure.

 I think i have 2 males and possibly one female, not sure of that, suspected males haven't call yet, and the one that i this may be a female was smaller  a month ago when i got her and now outgrown the other 2, so time will tell. so now 2 are about 4" long and one is about 4,5". 

Heather, here is a thing, i got a tank, and now starring at it thinking may be idea of all nice is not that good lol, I'm not a  pro on building nice looking tanks, for all mine the simple the better  :Smile:  but i will try.

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## Heather

I'm sure you'll do fine. Just read through some of the other posts so you can avoid the mishaps others have faced. Deranged chipmunk (Bill) has some great threads and if you check out the plant section you'll get some great ideas too.

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## Gail

Oh my gosh I love these guys.  I was thinking about getting some of these, but all I've read on them say they are not easy to keep, that they are for the experienced herpetologist.  I've only had native toads & frogs for two years, and snakes for almost a year.  I guess I'll have to live w/these amazing creatures through this thread.  Keep it updated please.

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## Lija

update time  :Smile: 
 out those 3 in the last pic another one died and second one was showing similar symptoms, one was totally healthy and fat. None of the frogs were responding to treatments, first 2 died very fast showing neuro symptoms and skin lesions, left trio was doing very fine for a few months, and then symptoms kicked in again.
 right now working closely with one of top frog vets in north america on getting reasoning and treat it, so far so good, sick one is getting better, eating like a pig again and almost ready to transfer from his hospital set up. I'm going to test our ideas first and will share it with you. 
 if anyone on here has experience in keeping those frogs i would love to chat.

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## Starforce2

Sounds like these frogs should be avoided. Were they WC?

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## Lija

yes, they were, as far as i know cb are not available anywhere on a pet trade lately, attempts of breeding were made and some were successful, but as far as i know people have hard time keeping them long term, and i think we might came up with why based on our experience.
 I don't think they should be avoided, but due to not much captive care information and information about them in general it is hard to keep them, once I do all my research and test theory, I will probably write a care sheet. As with any species the more information you have the easier to keep.

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## Carlos

Hello Lija!  Just read your thread, very informative but at the same time sad  :Frown: .  I really like these frogs and even found a probable source in U.S.  But last thing I want is to get them and watch them wither and die.  

Did you and Vet came to any conclusions about your frogs issues?  To me it sounded like a very agressive opportunistic bacteria  :Mad:  attacked a stress weakened immune system.  Some bacteria target the brain and nervous system and are highly lethal.  That would explain the neurological symptoms and later skin lesions.  Did Vet do autopsy on dead frogs to determine cause of death? Good luck with remaining one  :Frog Smile:  !

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## Lija

no, not yet, it is scheduled for necropsy with tissue sampling to be done soon. I can do it myself, but i want to include more pro's in it, more heads better outcome! 

 yes it is very sad story, but i wanted to share it and hopefully come up with the solution. any experience is good, it is sad for me, but it might help many more frogs in the future. The person who I'm communicating with is top notch and don't have reasons to not believe him, especially given that his suggestions work and explain everything I'm dealing with as well as other people dealt with too.
 skin lesions come first, neuro later.

 will be updating as it comes, right now i want to dig as deep as it's possible and hopefully to come up with reliable care sheet.

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Mentat

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## Starforce2

well, research isn't for me. I think if I went through the above I'd get frustrated and simply give up on keeping the species. Curious to know how much it is costing you to treat the disease or whatever is going on, if you don't mind saying.

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## Lija

> Curious to know how much it is costing you to treat the disease or whatever is going on, if you don't mind saying.


 not much since i don't need to pay for vet services or pay minimum if lab is involved  :Smile:  but the point is - I got frog species knowing it might be difficult to keep and having not much information of captive care available. They are awesome unique frogs, interesting to watch, but apparently there are things what need to be further investigated in order to ensure success of keeping them in captivity.

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## Starforce2

well that certainly makes it easier. Are you a biologist of some kind? Zoo employee?

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## Adoptedtwins

Very nice pictures!  I like a naturalistic set up, too.

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## Heather

Hi Lija, I'm sorry to hear you lost 2  :Frown: . I'll be interested to hear the pathology. They really are unique frogs.

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## Lija

thank you Heather! I'm sorry too, but I learned so much and am going to learn some more. as of now it is clear that WC nasutas need special approach not the same as with other WC frogs. 
 what would you like to hear? I can post pics and describe history and results of my research. necropsy is scheduled to be done at university some time this spring, but based on a history i'm not expecting much informative from it.

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## Heather

I'll listen to any education you've got...tell me all if you like  :Smile: .

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## Starforce2

I'd love to own these too. Hopefully I can be prepared. Currently fighting to save a bearded dragon....this kind of stuff aint fun.

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## Lija

will do complete update with pictures, how to and care sheet to best of my knowledge i just want to test a few things. or may be I'll better put down what i already know and will update with any new info. will do in a few days will have time then.

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## Lija

> I'd love to own these too. Hopefully I can be prepared. Currently fighting to save a bearded dragon....this kind of stuff aint fun.


  yep not fun, agree, but it is a huge rewarding experience when you do save or heal somebody.

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## Heather

> will do complete update with pictures, how to and care sheet to best of my knowledge i just want to test a few things. or may be I'll better put down what i already know and will update with any new info. will do in a few days will have time then.


Sounds great  :Smile: .

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## Lija

I'll start with picture update  :Smile:  this is my healthy one, that is a male I think, but haven't heard him calling.

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## Lija

that is how the other remaining frog looked like 7-1o days after 2 weeks after symptoms first started to show. 

 that is he now after treatment, almost 2 weeks after first pics were taken, it is a male and calling like crazy despite whatever is happening to him.



 that is his hospital set up ( tall plastic container, all walls and bottom covered with paper towels, partially covered with paper towel, 5.0 UVB present during a day for 12 hours.


 just pics for now, will do a description later.

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## Starforce2

I wonder if CB of the species will have the same issue. ANy ideas what it is? Fungus, virus, bacteria?

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## Lija

those wounds are bacterial infection that doesn't respond to topical antibiotics.  it was treated with systemic broad spectrum ones and Flamazine  directly on a wounds 2xday.

 so that is how it all happened. as I said it was a very educational and sad experience for me, i see my fault in some of the things I've done ( or hadn't done), you live , you suck it up and learn from your mistakes. The reason I'm writing this is to help future owners of nasutas to not to experience what I had to go thorough, as well as I mentioned the work is still in progress
 - i got 2 frogs initially, wounds appeared within 2 days, seizures after 2 days after, frog died the next day after seizures started.  the other frog was ok. 
 - I got one more frog from same pet store at about same time as the first one died, that one had wounds on its knees, so was treated and quarantined for 1 month. it that pet store nasutas were kept in small enclosures in a groups of 2 or 3. 
- a few weeks after i got third frog, same species appeared in the other pet store, so i got those 2 as well, they were very healthy and were kept in separate enclosures in that pet store, i put them together and added other 2 after quarantine was over.
- one of the frogs started to show wounds on a horns shortly after they all were housed together, it didn't responded to topical treatment and died shortly after seizures started. all frogs lived in temporary enclosure ( 24x18) at that time.
 - shortly after that one died I moved the remaining company to a bigger tank ( 36x18) with waterfall, pond and false bottom
- everyone seemed to be very happy, eating like pigs for a a few months. A month or so ago another frog got wounded horns, was quarantined and treated with Flamazine alone, looked to be better a bit, but not by much, i had to leave for a few days and a person who looked after forgot to mist hospital set up for one or 2 days, when i got home a frog was sitting on dry papertowels and looked quite dry, wounds were not that bad. I did complete dehydration therapy, but a frog didn't recover and died within few days, wounds during this period were going worse.
- at about same time one more frog started to show same symptoms, wounds on the horns, at that point world known and one of the best amphibian vets in north america was involved, the result you see above.  currently recovered frog is still in his hospital set up, but will be transferred to his  home probably today, and will be housed separately from healthy one for 3-4 month. 

 to be continued with possible causes.... gotta go now

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## Heather

Wow! That's a lot to go through.

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## Lija

there is theory that vet I was talking about came up with, but it goes completely against what long term keeps and breeders are saying and in truth I'm kinda doubt it too to some extend, but who knows.... he is guru of amph. medicine.....

 WC nasuta frogs were exposed to all kinds of poisonous plants and chemicals, they are shipped together but have been collected from different places and if a frog from one location is adapted to one type of poison, a frog from different location is not and if house together one frog will tox another one out, secondary bacterial infection will kick in. He is saying if housed together WC nasutas will tox each other out until one will be left perfectly healthy, the bigger the tank the slower the process is going to be and that is what was happening with mine.

 well, it would of course explain what was happening in here, BUT every single breeder/keeper I talked to, say the same- they were keeping their nasutas in groups and they seemed to be happy and lived long term. They explain situation by stress and the fact that stressed out nasutas are rubbing their horns thus infection.  That would explain the situation too as well as it was treated well with antibiotics, but why then one frog is perfectly healthy, while others are not, they lived in exact same conditions.

I think they both are right, most likely WC frogs are in fact toxing each other out and are susceptible to stress more then any other frog I ever heard about.

 what I'm going to do now is to test theory of toxing out, the remaining frogs will be housed separately for 3-4 month and if both healthy, happy and well I'm get them together again. if theory is true when is there a period of time a frog are not toxic anymore, logically thinking if they secret whatever they were exposed to before in time toxins should be out.

my gut feeling says, if you get WC nasuta, treat it as a sick right away, quarantine it in a tall hospital set up with fully covered all 4 sides of enclosure  provide hides, etc, do full anti parasitic treatment and watch for any signs of stress. Tall set up is needed because they can jump really high, mine jumped out of 18" high enclosure easily.

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## Starforce2

I think I'll wait till a CB breeder surfaces, avoid these issues, hopefully. Be interesting to see if after a few months they are toxin free like darts are. Since you have access to labs, can't you test the frogs secretions an find out if they are indeed secreting different poisons with a gcms?

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## Carlos

> ...WC nasuta frogs were exposed to all kinds of poisonous plants and chemicals, they are shipped together but have been collected from different places and if a frog from one location is adapted to one type of poison, a frog from different location is not and if house together one frog will tox another one out, secondary bacterial infection will kick in. He is saying if housed together WC nasutas will tox each other out until one will be left perfectly healthy, the bigger the tank the slower the process is going to be and that is what was happening with mine.
> 
>  well, it would of course explain what was happening in here, BUT every single breeder/keeper I talked to, say the same- they were keeping their nasutas in groups and they seemed to be happy and lived long term. They explain situation by stress and the fact that stressed out nasutas are rubbing their horns thus infection.  That would explain the situation too as well as it was treated well with antibiotics, but why then one frog is perfectly healthy, while others are not, they lived in exact same conditions.
> 
> I think they both are right, most likely WC frogs are in fact toxing each other out and are susceptible to stress more then any other frog I ever heard about.
> 
>  what I'm going to do now is to test theory of toxing out, the remaining frogs will be housed separately for 3-4 month and if both healthy, happy and well I'm get them together again. if theory is true when is there a period of time a frog are not toxic anymore, logically thinking if they secret whatever they were exposed to before in time toxins should be out.
> 
> my gut feeling says, if you get WC nasuta, treat it as a sick right away, quarantine it in a tall hospital set up with fully covered all 4 sides of enclosure  provide hides, etc, do full anti parasitic treatment and watch for any signs of stress. Tall set up is needed because they can jump really high, mine jumped out of 18" high enclosure easily.


Interesting theory Lija!  Question for you is why 3-4 months isolation?  Did Vet suggested that?  I'm asking because obviously these frogs are very social, so imagine the quarantine period should be as long as needed and not any more.  No idea how long frog detox takes; but organisms I know of (fish, invertebrates) detox in around 30 days.  Did try to find out how long does it take for wild Poison Dart Frogs to loose toxicity once removed from wild insect diet; but came out empty handed.  Good luck   :Frog Smile: .

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## Lija

3-4 months isolation is my idea, i want to exclude  possibility of any possible toxins. as it looks right now and based of what breeders are saying that these frogs are social but nobody noted that kept alone would affect them negatively in any way.  I didn't know darts and toxicity, i really need to do over to darts section. i have to find this out  :Smile: 
 as well both are on panacur right now that i should have done LONG ago. one of those you live you learn.

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