# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  Hormone induced frog breeding.

## Kevin1

Hey John in the other thread you mentioned something about starting a new thread on the subject. I didn't quite know what section to post it under as I'm not really asking about species specific hormone treatments. I was wondering what your experiences were on the subject? Also anyone else who has experience with hormone treatments such as LHRH and any others. Thanks

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## Kevin1

all righty then.. can someone delete this for me?

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## John Clare

Just saw this.  As it says in my signature, I don't read everything on the forum.  This is particularly true at the moment.  

I will quite happily discuss this topic in general but I don't make a habit of publicly sharing a protocol for it because, in my view, the skill set required is not something possessed by most of the people who want it.  The animals do not need to be subjected to the cruelty of the inexperienced keeper who can't temper rampant curiosity with common sense and ethics.

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## Kevin1

All righty John. I'm not wanting to learn how to use it. I'm just more curious of how it's done. I find it cruel in general and wouldn't want to do it.
 If done right though, do the frogs suffer from any side effects? I've heard horror stories of things happening to horned frogs, but I imagine this is from people abusing the treatment.
Oh and I didn't mean to sound impatient I apologize. It just seemed not many people were interested in the topic.
Thanks.

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## onedge30

Kevin - John,

I would be very curious to know the ins and outs of the process with frogs. I too would prefer to create a breeding environment, close enough, so that hormones would not be needed. But would want to understand the next step in the process, and all the risks, if I wanted to move forward.

I have experience breeding koi with and without hormones. My personal breeding, over a period of 3 years, was all natural spawning. I set up the right conditions at the right time, paired the right koi, and had spawning occur within a 6 hour period. Usually at dawn. My experience with hormone injections  was working on a koi farm. I believe the choice to use hormones was from laziness and  the possible need to push a few 'hard to spawn' koi. Never were the hormones used to strip the eggs and milt. Note - I did see several prize koi die, directly from the use of the hormones.

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## Kevin1

Thanks Jeff, I was talking to Seth about this the other night and how I feel. That if they need hormones to spawn than you must not be giving them the right conditions to produce enough hormones on their own to want to breed. Though Seth did say that it's more of an insurance that they will produce than a necessity. That's interesting that you bred Koi Jeff. At my old house I used to keep koi in my outdoor pond, well wasn't all mine since it was my parents house. I forget the breed names but I remember my favorites were red on the sides, white on top, and 2 rows of large blue scales at the tippy top of the body.

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## jelkins

Hey guys you should check out this link:  http://aark.portal.isis.org/Research...0Induction.pdf

This is a very interesting topic and should be openly discussed due to the large number of amphibian species produced and sold using hormonal injection.  

Additionally, check out this website:  http://www.xenopus.com/links.htm  it has a link showing the process for xenopus.

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## Mercedesherp

This an an area that encompasses an individuals understanding, and ability to actually accomplish this. Growing frogs, and then expecting hormone injections to produce viable reproductive products is an absurdity.
It is also obvious that there exits an informational vacume concerning this. 
While I understand some of the problems associated to Ceratophrys breeding, perhaps the most important aspect is that some just don't follow thru with preliminary
requirements or protocols, and endure a self imposed, premature defeat.
Only those that actually invest in the animals, time, and research will prevail.
( lets see, how many are there ? )

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## onedge30

> This an an area that encompasses an individuals understanding, and ability to actually accomplish this. Growing frogs, and then expecting hormone injections to produce viable reproductive products is an absurdity.
> It is also obvious that there exits an informational vacume concerning this. 
> While I understand some of the problems associated to Ceratophrys breeding, perhaps the most important aspect is that some just don't follow thru with preliminary
> requirements or protocols, and endure a self imposed, premature defeat.
> Only those that actually invest in the animals, time, and research will prevail.
> ( lets see, how many are there ? )


And do you have anything to add to the research? Or breeding ABF?

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## Mercedesherp

John Clare's article provides all the basic info anyone would need to breed these frogs.
While I do not have any actuall experience breeding these, I do with Ceratophrys.
My husbandry mirrors what John reccomends for ABFs, just slight differences.
Male combat may be considered an important componet for natural breeding in this species.
For hormone treatment, see attached....if it works.

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## Mercedesherp

Sorry, that was the wrong attachement. Try this one.
Everyone who works with homones should have a Vet to assist and supervise.

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## Mercedesherp

So quiet now,.......................
You have what you need . No more excuses, Do or Dont,

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## onedge30

Mercedes, why so hostile? I thank you for the information and look forward to reading and pulling information from it for breeding.

I don't know you and you don't know me. We all come from different experience backgrounds. So, please don't judge what you do not know. 

The main goal here is to ask and learn. And I personally strive to always learn more. So, I will always be asking more and more. And some question may seem 'dumb' to others, but I will still ask.

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## jelkins

You gotta be kidding me!  Someone ask a question, a very good question, and that spawns a bunch of input from what can only be a psychic.  I'm mean only a psychic would be able to know how people are going to use this information, right?  That has to be it cause the only other explanation would be pure egotism and a high degree of ignorance.  

No one ever claimed that natural breeding shouldn't be the best possible scenario and I believe most members on this site will agree that it is.  

The use of hormones to condition amphibians (xenopus & pregnancy tests) for reproductive success has been used for decades, does require some *basic* knowledge that should be demonstrated by an experienced person, but no question about it, it isn't heart surgery or anything remotely close.

It's a shame to log on, see such interesting topics posted by other members, and then see it hijacked by pure stupidity.

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## John Clare

You know, working with hormones in this way is actually hazardous to your health.  Most of these hormones can cross the skin barrier.  Unless you're skilled at the manipulation of dangerous substances, you should stay away from working with hormones.  Even acquiring them is hard and usually you have to cross a legal barrier unless you're professionally qualified to work with them.

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## John911

Few questions.  The majority of horned frogs come from the frog ranch?  So what are the odds that our frogs are infertile?

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## Mercedesherp

Frog Ranch is a very large producer. There are others who also do so.
I have raised Frog Ranch produced cranwelli from babies to adulthood and successfully bred them WITHOUT the use of hormones. Fantasy frog ( hybrid cranwelli x cornuta ) are sterile. I do not think there is much of a sterility problem
associated with Frog Ranch production methods.

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## Mercedesherp

I had intended to edit this article quite a bit more and eventually add some photos. I have lost interest in continuing further work on it.
Some of you may find some use of it.
I do not, nor, have not, used hormones to breed anything. 
I do think it is important to share accurate information.
Anyway, you will probably need a rain chamber whether or not you utilize hormones.

( I cant get this Word document to upload here. I will try to email to someone who is able just contact me)

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## Kevin1

Have you tried asking John( Clare)?

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## Minhocao

Hank, I'm always interested to see information and pictures.
You know where to send it.

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## Mercedesherp

No problem guys.
I had to learn the hard way by trial and error. If I can help anyone by sharing my experiences, which may or may not, translate into fewer mistakes, better understanding, and better production of captive bred frogs, the community as a whole benefits.

I have forwarded a copy of my article to John Clare. 
I will also forward it to other forums for consideration.

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## Kevin1

I greatly appreciate the shared experience Hank.You may not know it, but you've advised and helped me a lot over the years. I remember a few years ago we exchanged emails about breeding white's tree frogs. You also were the only one to reply to my inquiries about LHRH on kingsnake a couple years ago. 
Thank you for all the help to me and the community. :Big Applause: 
I look forward to reading your article.

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## onedge30

https://aark.portal.isis.org/researc.../allitems.aspx

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## Kevin1

Looks like I've got some reading to do.  :Smile:

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## Ra

You can actually buy the hormones pretty cheap at aquatics chemical websites, all it takes is a simple point and click and a few days later its at your door.

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