# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Breeding, Eggs, Tadpoles, etc >  Breeding tank

## Unnar Karl

Hi

I have been wondering what size of tank suits best for breeding_ Dendrobates Auratus_ or _Dendrobates Tinctorius ?
_I have been looking into these 20 gallon conversion kits http://www.junglebox.net/product/306...egory_Code=VIV
Are they to small or high for a breeding project ? The idea was to have a single pair in each tank.

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## Lynn

The 20  ( high ) converted will work fine. They are not too high because of the space taken-up by the substrate.
The auratus will breed when housed in a small group as long as there are a few egg deposit site choices ( you might consider a larger enclosure for a small group)
The tics should be housed in pairs....regardless. 

 :Butterfly:

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## Unnar Karl

Great, thanks.
How many auratus and how much bigger does the tank need to be for best results?
also, the egg deposits, are tilted film canisters with water suitable for the auratus ?

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## Lynn

I have a group of 4 auratus ( just now ...able to breed ) in a 18" x 18" x 24" H exo terra enclosure
I use glass petri dishes / covered w coconut halves. They need a lot of cover.
???? Mine are skiddish , very private, and do not like their "stuff" messed with  :Big Grin:  
I believe film canisters would be too small for egg deposits for this species.

 :Butterfly:

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## Dendro Dave

Hi I usually hang out on Dendroboard, but I'm poking my head in here tonight so I'll reply. Since i dont post here much ill add that I'm Dendro Dave on DB too, 5000+ posts 10 years in the dart hobby.

So...

While I think if you stick to pairs you can get away with using a 20h as a vert, it would not be my recommedation. 20verts are better suited for thumbnail frogs and pumilio. The larger darts may use the vertical space but the horizontal space is more important IMO. You guys may have heard the 5gal per frog guidline, but it is more like a minimum standard and assumes a well thought out multi level viv with as much usable surface area as possible. Also the height gained by tipping a 20h over and making it a vert while sacrificing all that floor area that could hold lots more leaf litter and terrain isn't really worth it for larger frogs that will probably appreciate the horizontal space more. Another consideration is you can break up sight lines better for larger frogs going hirizontal. Big frogs arent as unobtrusive as smaller ones and even good group frogs will appreciate some space between them and their friends often times. Its fairly common for frogs to stake an area to retreat to ot generally hang out alone in. Verts give larger frogs less space to do that in.

So unless you need to fit a lot of tanks on a rack i wouldnt do it, because again usually when people do a rack of 20 verts its for pairs or small groups of thumbnails or pumilio. If you need to fit a bunch of 20s on a rack for larger frogs you're probably better off sliding them in sideways and turning one end into your view area, in which case I would turn the other end and what used to be the front and back of the tank into a 2- 3 sided background. Since that would give the tank a lot of depth front to back, you could to a small pond up against that side that is now your front viewing area and let frogs raise a couple TADS in there without every having to pull the eggs. 

And yes film cans aren't ideal tad deposit sites for larger frogs, but they will often lay eggs in them and use them as a cozy little hiding spot, so if you wanna build some into a background or hide some amongst plants it won't hurt... might help  :Smile: 

I would also add that as I've gained experience, my personal minimum standard is more like 7-10 gal per frog even considering that my vivs have gotten much more suitable. Oh im starting to move towards 3 sided backgrounds not just becuase i like the look, but because that can add 2-5 square feet of suface area for springtails isopods and other microfauna to live and breed in which will mean fatter healthy frogs and less chance of over population and frogs getting iut competed by other frogs. 

It all boils down to giving yourself more margin for error. Much if what many would find perfectly acceptable, and absolutely can and does work.... still doesn't contain that extra margin for error that more space and more leaf litter will give you. It will absolutely mean less sick or dead frogs if you do this hobby for a few years... guaranteed  :Wink:

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## Josh

Didn't know you were here, Dave. Same profile pic and everything  :Smile: 

Listen to this guy ^

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## Dendro Dave

> Didn't know you were here, Dave. Same profile pic and everything 
> 
> Listen to this guy ^


Mmm.. Yesss... Gather unto me Dendroboard brothers and sisters. We will convert these good and friendly folk to angry militant froggers as we have so many many others before them, and soon they to will all cry out...

"I for one welcome our new Dendroboard overloads!"

.....Muahahahaahaa.  :Devilish:   :AR15: 

All hail Zardoz! (Aka Dendro Dave)

(Bit of a running joke on DB)

(Just kidding, I'm nice and laid back as long you seem to give 2 poops about your animals, and aren't a certain company attempting to flood the hobby with mixed morphs and a tidal wave of BS)

 :Fox:  (Omg a fox emoticon... you will never get rid of me now!)

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## Josh

Hmm, did I hear a little hidden message about USA Dart Frogs?  :Wink:  Sometimes I'll just go onto that thread for a good laugh, and then cry a little bit for the poor frogs

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## Dendro Dave

My machinations are sometimes subtle, sometimes not... but never without purpose  :Wink:

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## Lynn

Hey Dave...how are you ?

The tank conversions for the 20 are very popular , as you know.  
*It's those prices $$$$$*  I can understand.....I look at 9-24 h, 2-36 H and 3 - 18 H ( forced to use the 18" cause the 24H don't fit on the shelf very well)

 :Frown:  Often the price of the enclosures prevent people from purchasing _our_ idea of the "perfect" enclosure.
Not in this case, but the witnessing of  poor husbandry gets people off on the wrong foot. "_So whats wrong with putting 10 Whites tree frogs in a 10 gallon tank, the big box stores do it! They look happy ....all snuggled together"_" 

Same goes for the price of PDFs.... It's out of control ! 

So the point to my message is...... when a member states I have made ( meaning already spent the $$ etc) on a converted 20H for a breeding tank ...and asks "will this work" ; unless it's a really ridiculous mistake (personally) I let it ride....It really will be okay. As mentioned larger would be better.....but it will be ok. 

While we are on the topic of take sizes....Funny little story:
Heatheranne and I recently purchased 4 each --- R variabilis "Southern" 4 from John Clare and 4 from Shawn Harrington. 
We have paired them off....and will be meeting at WP in Nov to switch out pairs.
The are beautiful, healthy and happy !

Sooo, I am fostering _her pair_. I have them( each )  in QT since I got them in August.
Both pair are breeding .... I have had more than one clutch of eggs from both pair (housed separately) and in fact 2 clutches already oow.  Each pair is in a 8 x 12"H cube, I use for QT ! Yikes !

Food for thought....So is it experience that gets them to breed or tank size? 

I will admit seeing ----> and moving along building for tinc species..... to move them from QT tanks because they appear stressed to me. 

"The almighty they" tell us _bigger_ ! They ( or maybe "_we_" ) will be happier , of course, with a larger tank with a billion dollars of expensive plants and lights.  But, just the same------they'll be just fine in the 20! as long as there is plenty of cover.

BTW you can have the  :Fox:  BUT the  :Butterfly:  is MINE ! lol

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## Dendro Dave

I hear you Lynn, and good job trying to keep the bloodlines fresh  :Smile:  ...basically I just try to give the best info I can based on my experience and my understanding of others experience that I've gleaned over the years, and give some of the reasons why... then let the person decide. If it's something really bad I try to be polite first usually, 2nd and 3rd... if I can't get through after that the claws may come out.

I don't think a 20vert for 2 darts is insane, but while I won't attack someone for it, I also can't in good conscienc endorse it.  And I agree sometimes you just to work with what the person has or can do for now. Freaking out and running them off the forums doesn't help us, them, or the animals, but occasionally someone just has to be told in a less tben friendly way their being cruel to their animals, because we've exhausted every diplomatic option  :Smile: 

As experience vs size... I'd say either can result in breeding. You could have a really good vivs maker that puts in all kinds of climbs, ledges, tunnels, and then plants stuff over some of that stuff so that not only didn't they loose any usable space they actually doubled it or more. But then you can have some with not particularly good vivs, but just by virtue of size has enough hides, micro fauna and micro climates that the frogs do fine as long as the tank isn't over stocked.

While sometimes experience and skill will let you get away with some things, you still have to preach what's going to be best for most, even if you don't always do it yourself, but then ultimately I think as the best keepers mature they actually start following their own advice all the time and stop trying to get away with what can work so they don't loose animals that didn't have to be lost. Sometimes frogs are gonna die, but as a keeper sarts to see the majority of his/her animals reaching their max lifespan, they finally get the proof that going above and beyond what works has its rewards.

Also a.lot of people use breeding as evidence that what they are doing works and should be perfectly fine, and it is a valid point, but we've seen mating take place in shipping crates while the frogs crossed the ocean packed in like sardines and likely with a few DOAs. We've seen it occur in horrible overcrowded, or poorly constructed vivariums. So you can be doing things straight up wrong and still get fertile eggs, pull them and raise them or maybe have a few TADS morph out of a water bowl as long as you don't let it dry up.

So IMO while breeding is some evidence that things are OK, you have to look at how long the parents lived after that, how eggs went bad, how many TADS failed to morph, how many frog lets failed to thrive and then ultimately how many of your animal get to their max life span.

I'd say in the end the only real proof that you are for sure doing it right is when you realize you've got a bunch of geriatric frogs over 10 years old who can still breed, high morph out success rate and just aren't loosing animals once the've been in your care for awhile.

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## Unnar Karl

Thanks for all the replies, gave me a lot to think about  :Smile:

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## Lynn

Your welcome Unnar,
You will always find lots of great people in this hobby all of whom do things a little differently.
There's a huge list of important topics to learn about. You will find huge amount of information on-line. There are valuable resources
on separate care sheets for each species, housing, breeding. When looking to buy ....be ware......ask questions about the frogs you might buy:

-how old they are ( a seller should be able to tell you EXACTLY how old each froglet is !)
-if they are froglets--- have they been fed daily !!!! 
-if they are adults--ask about the feeding schedule ( some don't feed daily   :Frown:  ) 
-where did the parents come from
-are they CB ( captive bred) or WC ( wild caught)
-if parents were wild caught --- were they tested/or treated with any medications at acquisition
-is the individual who is selling them actually breed them, if not who did?
-what " grow out" environment were they in
-what supplements were they using
-what feeders
-what size feeders
-what water were they using ( RO, distilled, de-chlorinated) and for what purpose.

You might even check out references? ( This is difficult to do at a show , of course )
When at a show, check out how all the animals look in general ........the vendor is selling.  
After a little practice you will be able to see differences very easily. 

Those of us who sell froglets need to be just as wary of buyers too  :Frown: . An impulsive buy is scary.
At my very 1st show I refused to sell to 2 separate individuals. I listen very carefully to their conversations. 
I feel like giving people a test ,first, before they are allowed to buy  :Big Grin:  

So... what species have you decided to get? 

BTW have you ever thought about drilling your enclosures? I have done this to all of my 'permanent housing' enclosures.
It's great and not difficult to do. Are you planning to use a _false bottom_ tank or _layered substrate_?

Enjoy ! 
 :Butterfly:

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## Unnar Karl

> Your welcome Unnar,
> You will always find lots of great people in this hobby all of whom do things a little differently.
> There's a huge list of important topics to learn about. You will find huge amount of information on-line. There are valuable resources
> on separate care sheets for each species, housing, breeding. When looking to buy ....be ware......ask questions about the frogs you might buy:
> 
> -how old they are ( a seller should be able to tell you EXACTLY how old each froglet is !)
> -if they are froglets--- have they been fed daily !!!! 
> -if they are adults--ask about the feeding schedule ( some don't feed daily   ) 
> -where did the parents come from
> ...


The question list will be very useful when i find someone who sells them, thanks  :Smile: .
I live in Iceland and there is no one who is selling them and i starting to think there's no one who actually owns PDF here so i'm in a bit of a pickle.
I think my only option is to ship them here, i have been looking online for hours for the last couple of months and i still haven't found a single breeder or a store that will send them to me unless i by for total of 2000$ (on top of that comes the CITES application fee), and since i'm not P.Diddy i will have to keep looking a cheaper option :/

I'm leaning more towards false bottom because its easier to maintain

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