# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  what would happen if you feed a black widow, or any spider to your frog?

## lovenokia

I am wondering what would happen if you feed a black widow to your frog? would it die or not, and what about feeding your frog a non-poisonous spider, what would happen then?  The reason why I am asking because from time to time I find spiders in the house.

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## IvoryReptiles

Why would you want to take the risk? I don't know what would happen because I would never bother to do it. 
First of all, ALL spiders are venomous.........it's all about the strength of the toxins in the venom. Poison is a term used for items you ingest like arsenic, cyanide or belladonna.

I don't want to come across as rude, but it would be irresponsible to try it. You would be taking an un-necessary risk with your frog's life. I am sure they eat them in the wild, but when they are in captivity, you have a responsibility to take the best possible care of them.......that goes for ANY pet.........period.

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## lovenokia

I am wondering, but most likely would never do it, knowing how black widows can kill humans.  The reason is that from my understanding poisonous dart frogs from the rain forest are only poisonous because of what they eat, would the same concept apply to pacmans or not?

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## Heather

...exactly what you think would happen, your frog would die and it would be your fault. It would be paralyzed, poisoned, spun, and preserved for a large dinner.

Not a great question on a frog-loving forum.

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## arielgasca420

black widows can kill humans if they are hypersensitive to that particular venom, but I asked our pest controller since we have a lot of black widows and he said most people experience pain and swelling. Now if a smaller animal (like a cat) ingests a black widow than it can cause vomiting, diarrhea, and in severe cases it may cause organ failure. our cat died of kidney failure and the vets only possible answer was that he ate a venomous spider in the garage. to be honest, that cat was well in his prime and it could have been old age. 
It is best not to risk spiders or wild caught insects being ingested by any of your pets.   
and yes, all spiders are venomous.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

The frog would not necessarily die. They eat spiders, ants, snakes if they are small enough, and many other foods that are dangerous if you're bitten, but normally would do no harm if eaten. Now you can't quote me on this because the strength of the toxin like Jess said plays a serious roll in whether ingesting it is fatal or not. Just because the bite is venomous doesn't mean if the entire animal or spider is eating will be fatal ,but its not worth the potential risk. even if it doesn't kill the frog it can quite possibly make the frog ill. I have heard of Wild Ceratophrys Cornuta having scorpions and stinging ants in their stomachs. Even so its not a thought that has crossed my mind since a Black Widow is not an actual food item that you can aquire as a feeder nor would you want to try and catch one.

Now I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this was something you've seen on YouTube or torture tube as most of us would call it. I have seen a particular video with this specific spider being offered to a Pyxie Frog. Obviously this video was made by a very irresponsible owner who has a total lack of common sense and disregard for their frog's life. Don't ever take those videos on YouTube as being a good credible source of information even though there are many that are good the majority are just garbage and for nothing but a laugh or hits at the expense of the frog's life.

Keep that in mind.

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## lovenokia

> ...exactly what you think would happen, your frog would die and it would be your fault. It would be paralyzed, poisoned, spun, and preserved for a large dinner.
> 
> Not a great question on a frog-loving forum.


We all have the right to be curious, I love my frog a lot but would like to know because ,even from, the rarest of chances one day I may slightly open the lid, and from even rare odds a black widow entered my frog cage.  Chances are this will never happen, but i still think that it is good to know.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

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## lovenokia

> The frog would not necessarily die. They eat spiders, ants, snakes if they are small enough, and many other foods that are dangerous if you're bitten, but normally would do no harm if eaten. Now you can't quote me on this because the strength of the toxin like Jess said plays a serious roll in whether ingesting it is fatal or not. Just because the bite is venomous doesn't mean if the entire animal or spider is eating will be fatal ,but its not worth the potential risk. even if it doesn't kill the frog it can quite possibly make the frog ill. I have heard of Wild Ceratophrys Cornuta having scorpions and stinging ants in their stomachs. Even so its not a thought that has crossed my mind since a Black Widow is not an actual food item that you can aquire as a feeder nor would you want to try and catch one.
> 
> Now I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this was something you've seen on YouTube or torture tube as most of us would call it. I have seen a particular video with this specific spider being offered to a Pyxie Frog. Obviously this video was made by a very irresponsible owner who has a total lack of common sense and disregard for their frog's life. Don't ever take those videos on YouTube as being a good credible source of information even though there are many that are good the majority are just garbage and for nothing but a laugh or hits at the expense of the frog's life.
> 
> Keep that in mind.


Thanks, do you know how poisonous dart frogs are poisonous then? Like I sad in my earlier post, it is from the food that they want in the rain forest.  Frogs have been are around for over 250 million years, so it shows how resilient of creatures that they are.



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## Heather

True. And so please ignore my annoyed, ridiculous response...  :Stick Out Tongue: . 

I suppose if it had been worded as "do pacman frogs eat black widow spiders in the wild?", it might not have crawled under my skin  :Wink: . 

Grif always has a pleasant way of answering even the most subjective questions. Thanks Grif!  :Smile:

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Thanks, do you know how poisonous dart frogs are poisonous then? Like I sad in my earlier post, it is from the food that they want in the rain forest.  Frogs have been are around for over 250 million years, so it shows how resilient of creatures that they are.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


Dart frogs get their toxins from particular combinations of insects they eat. A lot of a particular ant and other insects that feed on potentially poisonous plants and fungi. When the frog feeds on these insects the poison is mixed up by the frog's body. PDFs are not Ceratophrys and with that said they do not create a powerful toxin like PDFs do. You cannot assume that just because this species can perform complex chemical concoctions that another completely different species can do the same. PDFs are small and cannot defend themselves from large predators so they produce a fatal toxin biochemicaly to make themselves inedible.

Ceratophrys are large frogs with a painful bite and the ability to fill themselves with air to make them appear even larger. Not to mention the deafening screams they can produce to safe off potential predators. You can't compare a PDF to a Ceratophrys. They're not even close to the same., BUT all frogs and toads secrete a kind of toxin onto their skin. Some are deadly, others just make them taste bad or irritate the eyes and skin. 

It would be highly unlikely that a Black Widow would wonder into your frog's enclosure. Black Widows are very secretive and like dark cluttered areas with little activity. You're frog's enclosure would not be to her liking  :Smile: .

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## KingCam

Frogs eat spiders all the time in the wild.  The venom is usually rendered harmless when it comes into contact with stomach acids.  HOWEVER, if the spider were to *bite* the frog on the way down it would definitely die if the bite came from a black widow.

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GrifTheGreat

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Frogs eat spiders all the time in the wild.  The venom is usually rendered harmless when it comes into contact with stomach acids.  HOWEVER, if the spider were to *bite* the frog on the way down it would definitely die if the bite came from a black widow.


Thanks Cam, That's exactly my point  :Smile: . Stomach acid breaks down nearly everything, but not all. Venom is basically a super concentrated chemically enhanced saliva. It is comprised of good chemical compounds that are only toxic when combined with the other proteins within the venom causing it to become harmful or deadly depending on what that specific venom does to the body.

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## lovenokia

> Dart frogs get their toxins from particular combinations of insects they eat. A lot of a particular ant and other insects that feed on potentially poisonous plants and fungi. When the frog feeds on these insects the poison is mixed up by the frog's body. PDFs are not Ceratophrys and with that said they do not create a powerful toxin like PDFs do. You cannot assume that just because this species can perform complex chemical concoctions that another completely different species can do the same. PDFs are small and cannot defend themselves from large predators so they produce a fatal toxin biochemicaly to make themselves inedible.
> 
> Ceratophrys are large frogs with a painful bite and the ability to fill themselves with air to make them appear even larger. Not to mention the deafening screams they can produce to safe off potential predators. You can't compare a PDF to a Ceratophrys. They're not even close to the same., BUT all frogs and toads secrete a kind of toxin onto their skin. Some are deadly, others just make them taste bad or irritate the eyes and skin. 
> 
> It would be highly unlikely that a Black Widow would wonder into your frog's enclosure. Black Widows are very secretive and like dark cluttered areas with little activity. You're frog's enclosure would not be to her liking .


Thank you, at least someone explained it to me.  At least it is good to know a lack widow wouldn't wander into my frogs terranium.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

A coworker of mine was bitten by a black widdow. She got to the hospital right away, but her leg was swollen for over a month. Having seen what their bite can do to a human, I certainly wouldn't risk any animal near one. But as I mentioned, it is very unlikely that a black widdow would wander into your frog's enclosure.

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## Heather

I've never seen a bite from one, thank goodness, but I've seen some pretty nasty emergency cases of necrotizing fasciitis requiring immediate surgery, one from a spider bite I remember quite well. Not pretty to say the least. 

It's actually rather fascinating that something so small can cause such destruction with just a bite. Inflamed streaks out from the bite with the dark seeping center spreading quickly with a foul scent like you'd never want to smell. Crazy! 

This case was 10 years ago when I was pregnant with my daughter. I remember the guy being admitted, blood pressure dropping quickly, tachycardic. He went to emergency surgery. I remember running back up and down the hall to grab what I needed all round and wobbling. We gave him epi and steroids pre-op. He went to ICU for a while, but recovered well. 

Very impressive!

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## Colleen/Jerrod

To me the scariest part is that they can track their venom. When my coworker got bit, she went to the hospital and had her home fumigated. They told her it was safe to go back so she did. That night she got two more bites, both within an inch of the first one. The doctor told her that as long as the venom was in her system, the spiders would be able to sense it. They go after "prey" that already has their venom because it is weaker. He told her that she could have been in a room with 100 people and the black widow would still have bitten only her. Scary stuff.

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## Ra

Most likely the frog would eat it and that would be that, and Im sure they NOM large tropical spiders with ease in the wild, but just as likely the spider could kill or harm the frog, which Im sure happens in the wild as well.
As far as caring for a captive animal goes, I wouldnt risk it.

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## Heather

Now that's impressive! Scary is right! There were lots of spiders when we lived in the Mohave. Anything with more than 4 legs kinda creeps me out, lol...

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## Panagiotis Mat

hey guys ! Don't speak like mothers! a frog eats everything tha passes in front of him and fits in his stomach! you shouldn't try to feed the scorpions mantis or somethimg else alive tha can kill a frog . for example i feed my frogs bees spiders and other that i can find because they also would eat them if they were free in nature! i have my frogs one year and i've never bought food.... i feed them things tha i catch for them... My advice is that you should let your frog to choose if he wanna it something or not..... thank you! and don't think that i'm irresponsible! i just trust the nature!

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## Heather

Ha ha! Can't help it... I'll blame it on the mom and nurse in me...always protecting and healing everyone. Lol! A bit overprotective perhaps  :Wink: . 

It took a while just to get used to my dubias, lol! I think I'll stick with nightcrawlers, dubias & crickets  :Stick Out Tongue: .

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## IvoryReptiles

We don't feed our frogs what is out there in Nature......they are captive bred & raised and I wouldn't take the chance of said insects carrying pesticides that would harm or kill the frog. But it's up to each individual owner to feed what they please.

I have been bitten by a Widow, I am terrified of them as a result. In high school, we had out-door lockers....in Las Vegas, no less! Reached into my locker first day of school and got nailed by a HUGE Widow at the back. Went directly to emergency room with anaphylactic shock....airway closing up and freaky red rash & hives all over. By the time I got to emergency room, the cramping started........mainly my legs & arms.....muscles contracted so hard they almost broke my bones. I was in the hospital for 2 weeks and had residual pains for 4 months........it was the WORST pain I have ever experienced!!

THIS is the reason I would never feed one to ANY of my pets. Granted they would react differently than a human, but again.....why take the chance?

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## KingCam

> We don't feed our frogs what is out there in Nature......they are captive bred & raised and I wouldn't take the chance of said insects carrying pesticides that would harm or kill the frog. But it's up to each individual owner to feed what they please.
> 
> I have been bitten by a Widow, I am terrified of them as a result. In high school, we had out-door lockers....in Las Vegas, no less! Reached into my locker first day of school and got nailed by a HUGE Widow at the back. Went directly to emergency room with anaphylactic shock....airway closing up and freaky red rash & hives all over. By the time I got to emergency room, the cramping started........mainly my legs & arms.....muscles contracted so hard they almost broke my bones. I was in the hospital for 2 weeks and had residual pains for 4 months........it was the WORST pain I have ever experienced!!
> 
> THIS is the reason I would never feed one to ANY of my pets. Granted they would react differently than a human, but again.....why take the chance?


That's a scary story!!!  Good lord O_O  I'm glad you didn't exeperience any permanent damage, except of course acquiring a new phobia.

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## Heather

Wow Jess! I'm glad you made it through. That's pretty scary :/.

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## IvoryReptiles

Thanks guys.......they scare me, but I still find them beautiful & fascinating!! I own 2 tarantulas and the fangs are much bigger, but they don't make me jump & cry like a Widow does!!

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## Don

Interesting thread.

Spiders definitely are not my choice of pet or for feeding.
   As Ivory experienced, spiders can cause some pretty nasty damage through the process of a bite.

While I was in Japan I was bitten while sleeping and woke up with the right side of my body paralyzed and intense burning pain.  Ended up with a nice size hole cut out of my thigh and a drain tube hanging out of it for a week.
   We also had the occasional large poisonous centipede charging through the house so they also have been put on the I don't need list.

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## Heather

That's what happened with the gentleman I cared for... They filleted off around the bite site. 

I'm glad you ended up okay. How long did it take for your mobility to return?

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## motiszm

Don't assume that widow venom has the same effect on amphibians as it does on mammals. I know that native toads can eat them, that doesn't necessarily mean that other amphibians can do the same though. To echo the thoughts/feelings of others: feeding wild inverts to your captive animals is always a bad idea, especially if they are potentially dangerous.

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## DVirginiana

I'm actually spending the day laying on the couch because of a spider bite.  Probably just a bad reaction to a more harmless species since I'm only feeling slightly horrible and it's getting no worse.  Eh, I'm sure wild frogs eat spiders all the time, but we have no way of knowing how often that ends badly.

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