# Frogs & Toads > Tree Frogs >  Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

## FrogsFascinated

I am a newer frog owner (About 2 months ago a friend of a friend had to sell her WTF) and he has been doing well, has prolapsed twice, but my mother used to be a vet tech so we have no problems with that when it does occasionally happen... and I woke up this morning and he can't move his back legs... but he was wedged between the wall of his tank, and a "piece of land" so I got him out and noticed one of his back legs was puffy and firmer than the other.  I did some research, and I read that lack of calcium can cause prolapses, as well as leg paralysis/weakness. Would it be more likely a lack of calcium or back injury from being wedged in a tight space? I do know he wasn't stuck last night before I went to bed.  Today is feeding day, so I'll be feeding him a little later today, so I don't know how his appetite is. I'll try to update after I feed Pogo (His name  :Wink: ... Perfect for a lazy WTF am I right??? xD) 

Thanks!!!

~Emily

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## elly

Hey, I'm not an expert (only got my White's a month ago) but I've read a lot and I'd like to suggest trying Calcium with D3 supplements. It might only be from being wedged, but that PLUS the prolapses look a little suspicious. Occasional supplementation probably won't hurt.

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## elly

There may be some emergency step you need to take since he's paralyzed. Other people on here would know what to do. Also, in the future can I suggest posting something like this to the 'Tree Frogs' forum? More people will see it that way.

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## Lija

Elly, I'll move this thread.

now. Please answer the questions below so we can help you better. Thank you.


- try to answer as many questions as possible. 
- if you do not know an answer to a question say "I don't know" rather than leaving it blank.

QUESTIONS

1----what 'kind' of frog is it ( what species)
2----please include a photo of the frog 
3----Please include a photo of the frog's current enclosure
4----size of enclosure ( W" x D" x H" )
5----# on inhabitants - ( if there is another frog --- is there a size difference ? )
6----has or was the frog kept with a different species or with any other tank mate 
7----is there a new tank mate----was the new tank mate quarantined 
8----what is the typical humidity level
9----what temperature is maintained
10---what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
11---describe the enclosure lighting ( very specifically)
12---describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc)
13---what kind of water is used
-----for misting
-----for the frog's soaking dish
-----is de-chlorinator used / what brand
14---material(s) used for substrate - be very specific 
15---enclosure set up:
-----if recent - describe how the enclosure was cleaned
-----plants( live or artificial) if artificial plants are used are they plastic or fabric
-----describe wood, bark , and background materials
16---when is the last time the frog ate
17---have you found poop lately
18---how often is the frog fed
19---what size feeder is given
20---what other feeders are used as treats
21---what is the frog's main food source
22---do feeders roam free in the enclosure or is the frog bowl fed
23---vitamins - what brand and how often
24---calcium - what brand and how often 
25---was the frog without calcium for any period of time
26---approximate age of the frog
27---how long have you owned the frog
28---who cared for the frog before you
29---is the frog wild caught or captive bred
30---how often the frog is handled -- are gloves used ( what kind of gloves) 
31---is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
30---has or was the frog properly quarantined (yes or no)
-----for how long
32---has the frog been treated with any medication:
-----for what
-----name of medication
-----for how long
-----what dose 
-----was medication prescribed by a herp vet

 :Butterfly:

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## Strider18

I would answer the questions as lija suggests. Hope your frog does better  :Frown:  

Lija did you steal Lynns butterfly?  :EEK!: 

0.1.0 Psuedacris regilla

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## FrogsFascinated

Hello, and thanks for moving this thread, I just made the account today! :P
1- Whites Tree Frog
(I do not have images right now, although he has a filter in his tank that's like a mini "Waterfall" if you will, that's made of fake rocks.. but that only circulates the water a little it's not like it's a huge current, and he also has a land spot that has moss on it.)
4-W 20", D 10", H 17" 
5-He's the only creature in the tank
6-No previous tank mate
7-No new tank mate
8-I'm not sure, but he does have a light on the top of the tank, with a screen on top for ventilation.
9-I'm not sure of temperature either
10-He has a light, I'm not sure if it is supposed to heat, or just provide light
11-The light is as long as the tank (about 20") and is turned on during the day, but left off at night
12-We change the water when it starts to look cloudy and we fully drain it, put in new water, drain it again, and repeat till it's clean
13-We use aged tap water (We put it in a container for a few days, that's what his owner used to do)
14-He has moss in his tank, but that's just so he has a place to get out of the water
15-About 1/3 of the tank on one side is a moss platform, on other side of tank there's a filter that pumps the water up and lets it run down some fake rocks, and then between the two there's some space with just water. There are some fabric plants in the two corners where the moss platform is.
16-I just fed him before I replied to this post (So around 5:15ish today)
17-I found poo this morning
18-He gets fed every Tuesday and Saturday
19-He gets fed Superworms (He usually eats 2-3, but today only ate 1  :Frown:  )
20-He doesn't get fed anything else
21-Superworms
22-He's fed in a separate tub, or else he doesn't eat the worms and they muck up the water
23-No vitamins, at least while we've had him
24-No calcium while he's been with us
25-Yes
27-I'm not sure, if his previous owner was giving it, for about 1-1/2 to 2 months
28-A friend of a friend (Sadly she passed from a rare form of cancer, which is why we have Pogo)
29-I believe captive bread
30-No gloves are used, we handle him when he is eating, and sometimes we'll bring him out to give him a bath (help him get off shedding skin he missed)
31-It's in my brother's room, we usually go in and check on him a few times a day (Since he's been getting stuck lately) and my brother is constantly in and out of his room
32-Not that I know of
33- We have not treated him with anything

Thanks for helping guys!!! Is there a specific brand of calcium treatment that anyone recommends/likes/uses???

~Emily

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## elly

I googled Superworms and apparently they have varying levels of calcium. As far as supplements I use Repashy Plus calcium which has other vitamins too, but I think any CalD3 supplement could work. (Experienced people, feel free to contradict me.) The supplement's not too hard to find, I found a jar of Fluker's Calcium plus D3 at my local walmart.

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## Lija

Hi Emily and welcome  :Smile:  see in blue below, thank you for answering the questions.




> Hello, and thanks for moving this thread, I just made the account today! :P
> 1- Whites Tree Frog
> (I do not have images right now, although he has a filter in his tank that's like a mini "Waterfall" if you will, that's made of fake rocks.. but that only circulates the water a little it's not like it's a huge current, and he also has a land spot that has moss on it.)
> 4-W 20", D 10", H 17" 
> too small. How big is a frog?
> 
> 5-He's the only creature in the tank
> 6-No previous tank mate
> 7-No new tank mate
> ...


sorry.... I started, but.... Emily, you need to go shopping and change almost everything.... Poor froggy....

Please read this Frog Forum - White's Tree Frog Care - Litoria caerulea

 get proper humidity and temperature gauges. - Walmart, etc, any combo they sell for home, I think it's about 6-8$.

food - no superworms! They are fattening and very hard to digest = impaction and overweight unhealthy frog. 

Water - you need to get watet conditioner, I prefer Prime, but any water conditioner they sell for fish tanks or reptiles will do. 

Take all moss out too.
You need to get ca/d3 and multivitamin powders.

*the things you needs to do asap.* Get unflavoured pedyalite, do a bath for a frog. Warm solution (80ishF), level no higher then frogs chin, 20 min. Solution you need 1 part of water, 5 parts of pedyalite. do baths every day for 4-5 days, same concentration. Please update how it goes, depending on a situation the concentration might be different.

get repti aid by fluckers ( i think). Use it daily, you can just dust food with it every feeding for at least 2 weeks.

for absolutely everything use only conditioned water. 

When you post pic of your set up I have a very strong feeling you will need to change things here too.

if you have to handle Pogo - wash your hands well, then put on disposable no powdered gloves or rinse your hands in conditioned water.

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Heatheranne

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## Carlos

Hello and welcome to FF!  I'm sorry your frog is sick; guess the chlorine in water and lack of CA/D3 finally got to it.  Please follow Lija's advice as soon as possible.  This is the product she recommended:  Repta Boost Insectivore/Carnivore. 

 You need to dechlorinate water because today's chloramines are stable in water and will not gas off like chlorine of the past. 

 For vitamins you can get separate products (CA/D3 and vitamins) from either Repashy (what I use) or RepCal.  Here are some sample schedules to get you started:  http://www.frogforum.net/food-feeder...schedules.html.  Repashy also has an all in one product called Calcium Plus made for daily use.  If you can't find Pedialyte; any unflavored plain baby electrolyte solution will do.  Good luck!

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Heatheranne

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## elly

I didn't know modern chlorine was stable in water. Thanks!

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## bill

> I didn't know modern chlorine was stable in water. Thanks!


Chlorine is not stable, and will off gas. Chloramines (and heavy metals) will not. They need to be dissipated chemically. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## elly

> Chlorine is not stable, and will off gas. Chloramines (and heavy metals) will not. They need to be dissipated chemically. 
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela


That's what I meant. Chloramines. Thanks.

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## FrogsFascinated

Thanks for all the advice guys!!!
Lija, don't think I'm trying to prove you wrong, I'm just giving you facts that I know. Pogo is 10, and he's lived healthily in his tank, and on his food, and the way the water is used for that long... My parents and I now think that it is from becoming wedged and that he has some sort of injury, he's not doing so well and we think he's going to pass. He's prolapsed again today and my mom flushed out his intestinal track and got him to poo (and also remember my mom was a vet tech, don't worry, she wouldn't do anything to him if she didn't know what she was doing) and the fact of his age, and based on how he's doing... he's not eating his food (We got a power calcium supplement by the way, but he hasn't eaten anything since) Would it be a good idea (And safe for him) if we mixed the supplement with water and gave it to him with a syringe? 
We're starting to worry because lately he's been changing colors and has some patches of green on random places of his body (Legs, back, side)... could that be something serious, or not so much? We got a different light for him I know one of them is a heat lamp, and the other is a UV lamp I believe.. although I'm not sure. My mother is the one who purchased them, this ( Amazon.com: Zoo Med Mini Combo Deep Dome Lamp Fixture, Black: Pet Supplies ) is it as far as I know...

Thanks so much for helping me guys! It really means a lot  :Stick Out Tongue: 

~Emily
P.S... I just noticed I had typed "bread" up there instead of "bred" Hehe... woops.  That was a typo, I'm not awful with grammar I swear xD

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## FrogsFascinated

Okay, I don't know whether to we mildly surprised, or worried, or what. Before I posted the previous post telling about the green spots... he had the green spots on him... and when I finished the post and posted it, I went in and checked on Pogo.. and the spots are completely gone O.o

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## elly

From reading around on the forum, lime green spots seem to be generally a bad sign. People often mention them when a frog is sick or dying. But my frog had them once when I first got him and he's still okay so I don't know. I think my frog had a case of uneven shedding caused by spraying him with water. Now when I mist during the day I try not to hit the frog directly which would remove the protective layer of waxy stuff that keeps him from drying out. At night time I don't think it matters so much since he's ready to do his regular soak/shed thing then.

I'm not surprised that he doesn't want to eat, given the repeated prolapse. And...sorry I don't know about giving a frog emergency calcium, maybe someone else here can help you.

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## FrogsFascinated

Thanks Elly! All of you guys have been a big help ^.^
He's been getting daily baths to keep him moist, since he can't use his back legs to get in and out of his water... and he enjoys them... I wash any dishes in our sink, along with anything else that's in there, and I fill it up about 1 inch, so he can move around with his front legs, without drowning. 

On another note, I have pictures now!!! I'm sorry about this first one I didn't realize it was blurry and the glass was spotty till I had it on my PC... And I just took these pics today ;-)

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## irThumper

> Thanks Elly! All of you guys have been a big help ^.^
> He's been getting daily baths to keep him moist, since he can't use his back legs to get in and out of his water... and he enjoys them... I wash any dishes in our sink, along with anything else that's in there, and I fill it up about 1 inch, so he can move around with his front legs, without drowning. 
> 
> On another note, I have pictures now!!! I'm sorry about this first one I didn't realize it was blurry and the glass was spotty till I had it on my PC... And I just took these pics today ;-)


Ok....... it's all clear now. This frog is morbidly obese! As a human with the same condition I can assure you, your frog is dying from being too FAT. He needs room to move, he needs a diet that has less fat in it; the obesity could be a big contributor to both the paralysis and the prolapse. Get him into a bigger tank where he can move around. At this point with him being unable to climb I'd at least get him a terrestrial tank that is much larger (other opinions here?) I wouldn't worry about him not eating for a while but the Pedialyte soak is definitely a good idea. I also know that a lot of handling isn't good, but I'd take this guy out daily and just see if he's willing to crawl back and forth... don't want to stress him either though, so it's a c.r.a.p shoot how to manage this.  :Frown: 

I also HIGHLY recommend you follow the suggestions given by these fine folks on housing and all other respects. They've been on the frog scene for a good while and have the experience to back up their knowledge. Good luck with Pogo, I hope you can pull him through, I'm rooting for him!

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

What I think what might have happened is that he wedged himself into that tight
 area and cut off the blood supply to his legs and suffered some permeant damage.

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## irThumper

> What I think what might have happened is that he wedged himself into that high area and cut off the blood supply to his legs and suffered some permeant damage.


Possibly, or it might be temporary. But circulation can be messed up at that weight anyway, poor guy  :Frown:

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## Lija

Sry i wasn't around to respond sooner.


 That is very sad! Very very sad situation. I feel very sorry for a frog, that wasn't a life for the guy, that was and still is suffering for the frog. He is not healthy by any means. It is cruel and animal abuse. It is a perfect example of how some frogs want to live, they live through lots of things, including this.

 Emily, a frog is not dead yet, so there is still a hope, not much of it though. Please help him before it's too late.

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## elly

also as a note, you might want to think about bathing him in some container that hasn't had dishwashing liquid in it. I'm sure you wash it out carefully before and after but if you forgot it might hurt the frog badly or give you food poisoning. Also I'm glad you're doing the work of moving him to the water since he can't.  :Smile:

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## irThumper

Lija, what do you think about putting him in a long reptile tank, 20 gal or more? He should have lots of room to crawl around but at his weight I wouldn't even encourage climbing (even if he could) as he could fall and get further injured. Maybe larger round smooth rocks or logs to climb over (but nothing he could get stuck or wedged in) and a shallow easy entry watering receptacle... I want to see this guy get well!  :Frown: 

http://www.petco.com/product/125390/Petco-Reptile-Ramp-Bowl.aspx

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## elly

Twice a week doesn't sound like way too often to feed him, maybe cut down to one insect at a time once or twice a week coated with supplements? I don't know how much fat superworms have. Anybody?

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## irThumper

Long tank All Living Things® Reptile Terrarium | Terrariums | PetSmart

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## Lija

Honestly... At this point I dont have much hope for the guy. 
Big tank right now won't help, the guy can't probably move or if he can just barely.

id start with full on hydrotherapy, electrolytes 1:1 with dechlor water every day for 2 weeks, to help flush toxins. if eating -  nightcrawlers coated with reptiboost for a week, qt tank. Feeding very small amounts, no more then small earthworm/nightcrawler at a time. And see the progress, review in a week.

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## irThumper

> Twice a week doesn't sound like way too often to feed him, maybe cut down to one insect at a time once or twice a week coated with supplements? I don't know how much fat superworms have. Anybody?


Further up the thread it said they are very fatty and loaded with chitin, which contributes to prolapse (as does the obesity).

I'd get him some crickets and gut load them on fresh vegies & a high calcium diet (Edit: Nix that, I'd do what Lija suggests!)

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## Lija

Elly, there absolutely can NOT be any superworms in that frogs diet.

i doubt he is able to catch crickets, they are not very nutritious, nightcrawlers would be better. If nkt eating these, then crickets or roaches would be the second choice.

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irThumper

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## irThumper

> Honestly... At this point I dont have much hope for the guy. 
> Big tank right now won't help, the guy can't probably move or if he can just barely.
> 
> id start with full on hydrotherapy, electrolytes 1:1 with dechlor water every day for 2 weeks, to help flush toxins. if eating -  nightcrawlers coated with reptiboost for a week, qt tank. Feeding very small amounts, no more then small earthworm/nightcrawler at a time. And see the progress, review in a week.


Hydrotheraphy... that gives me an idea. How about assisted swimming...?  It's worked for other critically obese pets.... she'd have to help him with a hand under him, but maybe...?

Here's some inspiration, Obie the obese Doxie,  https://www.facebook.com/BiggestLoserDoxieEdition

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## Lija

He can drown

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## irThumper

> He can drown


I was thinking of assisted swimming only (in shallow water) to prevent that. Or even just putting him in a long tank with just barely enough water to take some weight off his flab and encourage him to move...

This link is about dogs, but same idea http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifesty...ls-266817.html

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## bill

That poor frog needs a highly revised diet! Tong fed, dusted crickets. It needs to be strictly monitored. I would suggest 6 crickets twice a week until it starts to burn off some fat reserves. Then you can revise it's diet. The condition it is in now is UNHEALTHY!! Hopefully, after a few months of a more strict feeding regimen and it will come around. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## bill

Oh, I would also put the frog into a basic qt tank. Bare bottom, paper towel substrate, some plants for cover. It needs a clear tank to move around and burn off the fat reserves. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## irThumper

> Oh, I would also put the frog into a basic qt tank. Bare bottom, paper towel substrate, some plants for cover. It needs a clear tank to move around and burn off the fat reserves. 
> 
> 
> Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela



How about a longer terestrial tank? I think attempting to climb would be unsafe for him (not that he can). But he can't move at all in the one he's in  :Frown:

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## bill

A 10g should suffice. I wouldn't put any decor in there other than some plants for cover. Since it's food intake needs to be strictly monitored, so should it's poo. Paper towel substrate is perfect for that. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## irThumper

Obesity is such a prevalent problem in White's that I hope other folks can learn something from Pogo's situation. I'm paranoid about my own frog kids' weights and that they get and stay healthy, including weight-wise.  :EEK!:

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## bill

It is an issue due to people thinking they look "oh so cute" when they are overweight. Sadly, oh so cute, is oh not so healthy. I always kept my white's well fed, but I limited their food to keep them in target weight ranges. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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irThumper

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## irThumper

Makes sense to me. One reason I'm not overly keen about bowl feeding or tong feeding, I like to see the frogs go stalk their food and move around to catch it. In a more complicated set up I wouldn't want the crickets to get lost in the set up, though, but I can always make up a special tank just for feeding in the future when they get out of QT.

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## FrogsFascinated

Okay thanks for all the suggestion guys. I don't have a longer tank on hand, but I have a tank that's about the size of his current one (Maybe a little bigger) Would that work for him? Since it has a little more depth to it?

I saw you guys said he needs a bigger aquarium. When we inherited Pogo that's what he had been living in for the other ten years of his life, we were given that aquarium when we got him, We didn't realize that it would was too small.

Lija, I read what you said about Hydrotherapy, and feeding him night crawlers/worms, and what some of the others said about helping him to swim around, would that help at all if I didn't have the water too high? Only maybe 3/4 of an inch to and inch? That's what I did this morning. About the new diet, would it be okay to find normal earthworms out in my backyard, or would there be a risk of exposing him to some sort of disease? 

Again guys, thanks so much for helping me out with Pogo it really means a lot, and helps me not too feel so bad for a frog  :Stick Out Tongue: ... and I bet if Pogo could talk he'd be saying thanks too! :Frog Smile:

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irThumper

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## Amy

Oh my  :Frown:  Poor baby, I'm glad you've gotten lots of help on here.   I hope he makes it.

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## Lija

Emily think of Pogo as 500lb human. how to help him would be very similar as you'd do for a human.
so nothing drastic, everything in moderation, progressively minimazing food intake and increasing moving around.

food has to be nutritious and not fatty. Superworms diet is like burger with fries diet. 
How is he eating them? You put in front of him or are you using tongs?

qt rank -  moist papertowels changed daily, plant, something to sit on not far from a ground, shallow water fish, cover 3 sides of the tank with anything not see through. Having that will help you see pooping, how often, how does it looks like. Things like that. It's temporarily.

water therapy. get water conditioner, anything from reptile or fish section of the pet store would do. I like prime by seachem the best, cheap and last for a very long time. Use that for any water (tap/spring) you use.
get pedialyte ( non flavoured, over the counter in any farmacy), mix one part of treated water with one part of pedialyte. Keep the frog in a bath or about 20 min every day for a week, water level no higher then frogs chin, supervise and assist if needed. Being obese he might not be able to support himself well in a water. 

Mineral/vitamin supplements. Get reptiboost by fluckers, coat with it food you use. The best would be if you could find canadian nightcrawlers or earthworms from any store that sells fish bait. Just make sure it's not dyed.
earthworms from your backyard may contain stuff you don't want to feed to your frog. 

Please keep us updated on a progress, bath concentration might change, the game plan may change accordingly to the progress. Really hope he'll make it.

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Heatheranne

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## irThumper

Pogo's mom- I'm very glad you are willing to help him to have a better life! I'm sure his past owner thought she was doing everything right for him, sadly it wasn't the case. If you have a large rectangular shallow glass baking dish you could use that for his 20 minute Pedialyte soak sessions (never leave him unattended!) and see if he's willing to move around some while in the solution. Don't do anything to stress him though, be gentle and give him time. I really really hope he pulls through and look forward to reading his updates  :Smile: 

Oh and I'd put a bigger tank on your Christmas wish list *coff*  :Wink: 

These are my White's tree frogs, so we're both White's moms  :Smile:  
http://www.frogforum.net/members/irthumper-albums-white-s-tree-frogs-irthumper-picture74416-honey-shirley-sheila-jelly-bean-10-12-14.jpg

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## FrogsFascinated

Hi - this is FrogsFascinated mom.  Wanted to clarify a couple things and see if it changed any suggestions.  Pogo was very healthy and active up until about a week - ten days ago.  He would hop from his mossy area into the water, up on the rocks and back to the dry spot.  He had a great appetite.  The weather has cooled a bit recently and I originally thought it was the lower temps that caused some of the changes we saw.  I agree he could have more room, however he has been in this set up for ten years and has been healthy. His first owner was a science professor and kept a variety of reptiles and amphibians. I trusted after ten years she had figured out a healthy program for Pogo.  As my daughter mentioned we adopted him with hand written instructions from his first owner which we have been following.  So while it may not have been the best arrangement it was consistent.  The two pet supply stores we have consulted with have also recommended the superworms.  We have well water not treated city water.  When he slowed down a bit and showed less interest in the worms we started to research more online to see if there were any changes we could make for him. We purchased a heat lamp and new UVB bulb and a powdered Ca+ supplement to put the worms in.  His paralysis was sudden onset, moving around fine one day and the next day has no control over back legs at all.  The legs also have become swollen on the top half and he is bloated, not obese. I'll give you chubby but he has become much larger in the last week. His prolapse was more pronounced this time and the mucosa was very irritated, with the bloating of his legs and body I am concerned with a blockage.  Gave him a mini enema after replacing the prolapse to make sure all was where it belonged and he did pass a few harder pieces of stool.  His bath and feeding time is in a basin the size of a small litter pan and is used only for pogo, not dishes or other cleaning purposes. All suggestions are appreciated.   :Smile:  This pic was before he was so bloated.

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## irThumper

Hi FF's mom  :Smile:  I'm going to stick with what's already been suggested here. These guys do a lot of climbing around in the wild as they stalk their prey, and most folks do not give them nearly enough room in their captive habitat (not sure there is such a thing as too large of a tank for a captive White's). He's needed way more space than just to hop from the moss to the water to the rocks and back again. I won't feed superworms to my guys, too much fat & too hard to digest. Wax worms are soft and easy to digest but again very fatty, so have no place in this guy's diet. I'd go with what's been suggested as far as earthworms and crickets gut loaded on healthy vegies and a high calcium cricket chow goes. He needs exercise to keep him regular too, that and the earthworms are more digestible and should be easier to pass.

How did you treat the prolapse and replace it?  I just went through this with my young White's, sHEila (turned out she was a he), and it was recommended here that I use a slurry of white sugar and conditioned spring water on the tissue to help it recede. It worked wonderfully and saved a lot of stress and pain for sHEila. I'm still keeping a watchful eye on him. These pics were taken before I found out about using the sugar.

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## Lija

Ok let me say this for the last time. 
1. A frog is dying
2. The prognosis is really bad
3. A frog is still alive, so it's not too late yet.
4. Instead of looking for excuses you better try to save him.

its your choice to take an advise or carry on whatever you are doing. Ultimately you are the owner now, the decisions and choices are yours now.

My last advise for you - take him to a vet asap. That would be better then consult over the Internet. The frog is dying.

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## FrogsFascinated

irThumper - We are beekeepers so I used raw honey with distilled water and a qTip.  The sugar/honey helps reduce the edema in the mucosa and the padded qtip allowed us to replace the prolapse with little trauma to the frog.

Lija - no one is making excuses, I simply stated that while his conditions were not optimal before he was healthy and active.  As soon as we realized he was not doing well we have actively made changes for him that will hopefully allow him to recover and get back to 100% again.  It is pointless to move him to new accommodations while he is unable to use his hind legs once he is recovered and moving about we will address that as well.  Through local sources we have have received poor advice, I was hoping to find better advice to help Pogo on this forum not criticism for how someone else was raising him.  I never claimed to be an expert concerning the White's and am open to gaining knowledge from those that have had more experience.  I don't appreciate the sarcasm for trying to do right for our pet.
Thanks to those who have given suggestions for better diet options.  When his appetite improves I hope he enjoys his new fare.  :Smile:

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## Heather

Hi all. I have read through all of the posts and comments. 

I see a few health ailments going on here. The frog is both obese and edematous. There can be several different issues to tend to. Please bare with me as I assess each one and try to help.

Please remember, this is only to help. However the frog was cared for prior has not been good for this frog. I do not know the frogs previous owner, but I have worked closely with a herp vet over the last 4 years and also some very knowledgeable breeders. Please keep in mind, at this point it does not matter. All that matters now is that we help to get your frog healthy.

I'll number so it's easy to follow:

1. The frog is obese at an unhealthy level. He will soon progress into lymph heart failure, kidney failure and lipid keratpoathy in which he will also loose his eye sight. 

To correct this situation I would not feed him super worms, waxworms, or mealworms. The chitin in their segments are like popcorn shells and cannot breakdown, leading to intestinal impaction, prolapse, and intestinal infections. Waxworms and super worms are like eating McDonald's every day. No nutritive value. 

Healthy food choices are night crawler pieces of proper size. They are also soft and easy to digest  :Smile: . They are a good source of protein. 

2. The trauma to the frog could have caused some circulation compromise. Monitor his limbs for movement, swelling, and discoloration.

3. Edema (swelling): ugh! This poor fella. He is so obese it's difficult to determine how much is edema. Edema occurs when the frog has improper electrolyte balance, trauma, or kidney failure. Lack of protein can also cause fluid shifts. Lack of nutrition and supplements can be corrected. 

4. All captive bred frogs need supplements. This has been studied over and over. Captive bred diets are limited compared to that in the wild. Insects feast on healthy green plants that supply vitamins and calcium. The sun provides them with the vitamin D3 they need to properly absorb the calcium ingested. In captivity we must provide this for them. 

Calcium with vitamin D3 should be lightly dusted on their food every other feeding. 

Symptoms of lack of calcium in the body: numbness, tingling, twitching, tremors, lack of muscle control, weakness, paralysis and seizures, lack of intestinal motility, heart dysrhythmias. It limits all types of muscle functions including skeletal, cardiac, smooth muscle/visceral. This is because without calcium the impulses to move them are not functional. 

Multivitamins for amphibians are also required. We all need small amounts of minerals and vitamins for vital body functions, such as potassium, magnesium, sodium and others. Amphibian MVI's are made specifically for them in proper concentrations. Repashy brand is the best one out there at the present time. Id recommend you use it as a light dusting once a week. Do not over do at this time as I am highly suspicious that this frog is possible having lymph and kidney issues. We don't want to overdose him either. 

Pedialyte soaks: they are very helpful in redistributing proper electrolytes in sick and unhealthy amphibians. We are lucky in that they are like little sponges or blood vessels and can absorb through their skin. This is a temporary fix. The goal is to regain his health through proper nutrition. 

5. Diet: this is a tough thing. We don't want to starve him but need to make healthier choices. Starving him will cause muscle wasting and more swelling. The goal is to feed better and just a bit less at a time. 

Good gracious, I've written so much I need to read back through  :Smile: . I'll add more in just a few minutes.

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irThumper

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

I would be more worried about the stress on the poor fellow more than drowning.





> Hydrotheraphy... that gives me an idea. How about assisted swimming...?  It's worked for other critically obese pets.... she'd have to help him with a hand under him, but maybe...?
> 
> Here's some inspiration, Obie the obese Doxie,  https://www.facebook.com/BiggestLoserDoxieEdition

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## Heather

Please keep in mind, we only wish to help  :Smile: .

Okay...

6. Water: all water should be chlorine, chloramine, and heavy metal neutralized. It depends on the water you use. If your water has these chemicals or heavy metals, it should be dechlorinated and neutralized with a amphibian safe solution. This should be for all water bowls and for moistening substrates. Never use soaps or chemicals. You can use very hot water for rinsing bowls and then rinse again in dechlorinated water. 
The only time you should use bleach is when decontaminating infected tanks or equipment and it must be thoroughly reversed with dechlorinator. And only 10% bleach, rinse, then soak in at least 4x the amount of usual dechlorinator. 

Water bowls should be rinsed and new water added daily. Ponds should have a filter and water changes should be weekly. 

7. Temps: mid to upper 70's at night. Day time should have a basking spot of around 80-82'F. The frogs will bask to aid in metabolism and digestion.

8. Humidity: 50-70%. Never over 80's for any extended period of time as this species has a tendency towards respiratory infections.

9. Exercise: this is a tough topic. With this little sweetie, it's going to be very difficult to encourage activity in his condition. We don't want to stress him either. He will move around as he is able. The best thing to do is to change his habits and hope he improves. A wider soak dish might encourage some movement, but be sure the water is no deeper than his chin when sitting and be careful.

10. Handling and stress: handling causes stress. Stress weakens their immune system. This allows for opportunistic infections. Minimize handling and keep his home in a nice quiet area. 

11. Prolapses: it would be a good idea to have his feces tested for parasites and eggs. My first guess as to why he is having prolapses is the difficultly digestion the super worms. Another common cause is intestinal parasites. The test is fairly inexpensive and easy. Just send a fresh feces sample in a new baggie to Dr. Frye' office with a paper staying the rest you'd like done. You can either send a check or pay over the phone it's around $20. We'd be happy to share his info if you'd like it?

I'm sure I have missed something. I'll swing back later to check for responses. 

Lija, Mentat, Der Chipmunk, and others have given you good info. 

Please don't feel criticized or offended. We are here to help. The frog's previous owner was misled. We can teach the proper care  :Smile: . 

Hey, this fella has a slim chance. Let's give him that. He is just a sweet victim of fault. Sometimes our adoptive frog parents have not been given the right guidance either. We have to remember the frogs are why we are all here  :Smile: .

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irThumper

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## irThumper

Awesome info, Heather, and great for everyone who owns White's to keep in mind!  :Smile:

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## FrogsFascinated

Hello Heather! Thanks for the information! We are planning to change his diet once his appetite is back, and will definitely use night crawlers instead of superworms. 

I know you all think he is severely obese but he's really not... he's become bloated and "Puffy" within this week and a half that he's been sick. 

Pogo is starting to look a little better, as he seems more perkier now and is looking a little more like himself (Skin isn't changing crazy green colors anymore) aside from the paralysis. 

My mom made up a solution with some water and the powdered calcium supplement and he gets a little bit of that daily, and we got the pedialyte (Non flavored) for him to soak in and he got his first bath in that yesterday. Throughout the day I will drizzle some of the water from his little pond to keep him moist, because who wants a dried up froggy  :Confused: 

I'll keep you guys updated, thanks again!

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## irThumper

A much easier way to keep him moist is to get a fine mist spray bottle, like the kind you find in garden centers for spraying plants, and mist him and his tank (with treated water, of course).  :Smile:  

You don't happen to have any other before pics of him do you? It's not like folks don't believe what you are saying about the edema, but there's also excessive supratympanic ridge development, which often occurs when they are overweight.

This is a page out of the book "The General Care and Maintenance of White's Tree Frogs and White-Lipped Tree Frogs" by  Philippe de Vosjoli (The Herpetocultural Library, 1990) which illustrates what I mean... the pic shows an extreme case  :Frown: 



The back cover of "White's Tree Frogs" by John Coborn (TFH, 1994) shows Australian White's in their native habitat in the wild, I believe, to compare normal weight (love that pinto/pied one!)



The next pics are in pages from the book "White's and White-Lipped Tree Frogs: Facts & Advice on Care and Breeding (Full Color Photos)" by R.D. Bartlett and Patricia Bartlett (Barron's Reptile Keeper's Guides, 2001) they show an overweight adult female White's and a normal weight young male White's.

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## FrogsFascinated

Those book pages are interesting! I'll flip through my phone pictures and see if I have an old picture, My profile pic right now was an old one, and I think I have one when we first got him. 

He doesn't look nearly as sickly as the frog in the first photo, much more alert and happier looking. 

I'm giving him the calcium manually, is that good for him and will it help, or would it be better on food when his appetite is back?

He's gotten 2 pedialyte baths so far, for about half an hour each time. Is that time long enough, or too long?

The misting bottle idea is cool too! If I happen to have a bottle on hand, I'll try it!  :Smile: 

Is there anything else I should be doing, besides keeping him moist, daily pedialyte baths, daily calcium supplements (Only a little not a super large amount), and when he needs it I help him get his shedding skin off because he can't reach around to do that anymore since he's bloated.


Thanks!!! 

~Emily  :Smile:  (And Pogo  :Frog Smile: )

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## Heather

Is he eating at all now?

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## FrogsFascinated

He's not for the time being, we need to find a place to get worms, unless getting them from our backyard is okay, although we've been diligently trying to find something.  Is there anything else that would work, that's a nice soft diet with the protein that he needs???

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## elly

There may be something else but I haven't heard of it. In many places, Wal-Mart is still selling nightcrawlers for fishing. Or you could try a bait shop (just not dyed worms or red wrigglers.) I'm going to cautiously say garden/ compost worms are okay (someone correct me if I'm wrong), but you want to make sure they're from a place that hasn't had insecticide.

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## FrogsFascinated

Thanks Elly!!! My family and I are also beekeepers so we don't use insecticides/pesticides anyways, it could harm the bees too.

I was wondering, would it help at all if I made a video of what I do for Pogo on a daily basis? I figured that might help sum up all my posts into one big thing to maybe clear stuff up, and plus I like making videos and putting them together  :Wink: 

Oh and one more thing, if I do make a video, would I have to post it on Youtube so I'd have a link, or can I upload one from my laptop just in my files?

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## dj1

> There may be something else but I haven't heard of it. In many places, Wal-Mart is still selling nightcrawlers for fishing. Or you could try a bait shop (just not dyed worms or red wrigglers.) I'm going to cautiously say garden/ compost worms are okay (someone correct me if I'm wrong), but you want to make sure they're from a place that hasn't had insecticide.


I no longer keep WTF I did over 20 years ago, but still keep other anurans. and have done since I was 8 yrs old, i'm now 53.........
I wouldn't use the brandling or tiger worms found in compost heaps,or at least they are hear in the UK they are quite acidic and don't smell very pleasant, not many amphibians will eat them. Dig a piece of ground over and collect some worms that way, or put damp cardboard/carpet on wet ground  and keep it damp and see what turns up.

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## FrogsFascinated

Thank you dj1, that was my plan. There's lots of places in my yard that are great for worms, since they stay moist but not drenched and if I dig up just a little portion of ground there are many worms. 

Would it be a good idea to maybe make a box like shape out of plywood or use a bucket and put dirt in it, with some worms, as winter is coming and I don't think worms will be as abundant as in spring/summer/fall and I'd like to have a plethora of worms for Pogo once he gets his appetite back.

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## elly

Hmm, googling says that red worms/ red wrigglers and tiger worms are the same thing:*Eisenia fetida* , so we have those in the US too. I know they've been introduced here, but I don't know how widespread they are.

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## elly

> Thank you dj1, that was my plan. There's lots of places in my yard that are great for worms, since they stay moist but not drenched and if I dig up just a little portion of ground there are many worms. 
> 
> Would it be a good idea to maybe make a box like shape out of plywood or use a bucket and put dirt in it, with some worms, as winter is coming and I don't think worms will be as abundant as in spring/summer/fall and I'd like to have a plethora of worms for Pogo once he gets his appetite back.


 If earthworms straight from the garden are okay that should be fine. Although you might want to use the bucket instead of plywood. Or at least some untreated wood to build the box. Some kinds of plywood have a lot of chemicals in it that might get released when it starts breaking down.

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## FrogsFascinated

Ohhh Okay, thanks again Elly!

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## Strider18

Do not feed red wigglers to your frog, they hate them! I accidentally fed my Pacific chorus frog a red wiggler and more she had refused to eat worms at all for a few days  :Frown: 

0.1.0 Psuedacris regilla

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## irThumper

I was just going to mention that about the redworms! And yes a video would be great!  :Smile:  I'm loving making vids of my guys. Definitely put them on YouTube, I think it's the only way to add them here, by linking (correct me if I'm wrong someone?) Another great place to post vids is on the White's Tree Frog Lovers group on FB. Great group and some of the other White's tree frog lovers on here are over there also  :Smile:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/WhitesTreeFrogs/

Here are some ideas for worm keeping bins  :Smile:  Worm Composting Bins | What is the best Wormery? 

Now, these are for composting worms (like red wigglers), but I think they would work for night crawlers/fishing worms. Will have to look into that more.

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## FrogsFascinated

Thanks irThumper!!! I'll check those out! I'll probably just do something with Youtube, I'm not allowed to have a Facebook yet, gotta follow Mom's rules..  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I'll start the video tomorrow morning and maybe have it up between Thursday and this weekend, it all depends on how long editing takes xD

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## irThumper

Sounds good!  :Smile:  I just consider this place "Frog Book"!  :Big Grin:  Oh, and you can look up a bunch of stuff about growing night crawlers and earth worms on YouTube too. Looking forward to seeing your vid!  :Smile:

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## FrogsFascinated

Thanks!!! I'm looking forward to making it! I subscribed to you so you can see my profile  :Frog Smile:  It took me forever to get the channel art picture to work how I wanted it and now it's blurry xD

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irThumper

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## irThumper

Thanks! I had a hard time figuring mine out too, so I just opted for a nice pond pic, lol.  :Wink:

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## FrogsFascinated

Haha I edited a pic with Pogo and my channel name but I couldn't get it to size up right xD

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## irThumper

Hmm! I don't think your settings allow me to see you anyway :P "Only subscribers who share their subscriptions publicly are shown".

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## FrogsFascinated

Hmm.. I'll have to fix that! Do you have to be subscribed to me to see it? I was in my channel and clicked "View as public" and I was able to see my profile banner, so I don't know!

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## irThumper

> Hmm.. I'll have to fix that! Do you have to be subscribed to me to see it? I was in my channel and clicked "View as public" and I was able to see my profile banner, so I don't know!


That I'm not sure actually. Will take another look when I get back from shopping.  :Smile:

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## Heather

Walmart sells night crawlers. Petsmart and Petco often do too. I sometimes order mine from www.joshsfrogs.com when buying a bunch at a time. 

Once the prolapse has resolved and he is pooping normally without difficulty, he can eat the night crawler pieces and medium crickets. You can also stop the Pedialyte soakings at that time. Only feed him one 1" worm piece or 1-2 small/medium crickets every 2-3 days. Best to start with soft worm pieces. If he develops another prolapse, you'll have to go back to square one. Don't forget your ca/D3 and MVI.

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## FrogsFascinated

Okay guys I got the video up today!!! I forgot I had an app on my phone to make different scenes as I was making it, so here's the video! If you guys want a video with a better view of his tank set up let me know!  :Smile: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCNcT3jA6gc

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## elly

Aww, poor baby. Far as I can tell you're doing well. There are only two things I'm a little concerned about, maybe someone more knowledgeable here can tell me if these are a problem: 1. rinsing him in water from the shower/faucet that isn't dechlorinated. 2. Rubbing his back a little much maybe. Oils and salts in human skin aren't really good for frogs, maybe having an imperfect shed would be better than being exposed to them quite so much.

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## dj1

> Thank you dj1, that was my plan. There's lots of places in my yard that are great for worms, since they stay moist but not drenched and if I dig up just a little portion of ground there are many worms. 
> 
> Would it be a good idea to maybe make a box like shape out of plywood or use a bucket and put dirt in it, with some worms, as winter is coming and I don't think worms will be as abundant as in spring/summer/fall and I'd like to have a plethora of worms for Pogo once he gets his appetite back.


I would use a bucket but keep it somewhere out of any bad weather, rain that will flood it, or frost that may kill the inhabitants.
 I must say I have never given a tree dwelling animal an earth dwelling foodstuff. I don't know where you are in the USA, but couldn't you put a light over a box of screwed up newspapers left on all night, and collect moths or flying insects the next day?
The thing with feeding flying or crawling insect is the frog will getexcersie hunting, not just feeding as it sits, I agree with the ideas here of a taller enclosure, tree frogs need to climb and the higher the better. even a home made snake type viv of wood with glass front standing on end would do. I hope your frog pulls through, at least if it doesn't you have tried your best, and don't let events stop you keeping more of these wonderful creatures.

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## irThumper

> Okay guys I got the video up today!!! I forgot I had an app on my phone to make different scenes as I was making it, so here's the video! If you guys want a video with a better view of his tank set up let me know! 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCNcT3jA6gc


 Good job on the vid!  I commented on there and subscribed  :Smile:

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## FrogsFascinated

dj1, Pogo has never really been a climber for as long as we've had him, and when his previous owner had him. His previous owner had taken many classes on amphibian/reptile science and hand made his tank herself to suit his specific needs  :Smile: 

irThumper, Thanks!!! I just read your comments  :Smile:   Even though I haven't been using gloves, I am very gentle when helping him shed. I let the water do most of the work, and if there's a piece that the water gets loose then I'll carefully remove it the rest of the way.

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## elly

> I would use a bucket but keep it somewhere out of any bad weather, rain that will flood it, or frost that may kill the inhabitants.
>  I must say I have never given a tree dwelling animal an earth dwelling foodstuff. I don't know where you are in the USA, but couldn't you put a light over a box of screwed up newspapers left on all night, and collect moths or flying insects the next day?
> The thing with feeding flying or crawling insect is the frog will getexcersie hunting, not just feeding as it sits, I agree with the ideas here of a taller enclosure, tree frogs need to climb and the higher the better. even a home made snake type viv of wood with glass front standing on end would do. I hope your frog pulls through, at least if it doesn't you have tried your best, and don't let events stop you keeping more of these wonderful creatures.


Good advice, although I have a feeling the frog's not going to be climbing any time soon with paralyzed back legs. Also, nightcrawlers aren't the most natural of food for tree dwelling frogs, but they do have lots of protein, little fat and they're soft and therefore easy on a frog that's had a prolapse so I imagine they won't be too bad.

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## dj1

Agreed elly I was thinking a head more than recent events, may be i should have made that clearer, 

@frogsfascinated, I wonder why your frog never climbed now our with the previous owner, I have seen them wild in Australia and they were about 20 feet up. Though in dry weather they are often found lower down even in toilet cisterns, but I'm sure you will know that. May be the original tank was to dry and the frog stopped nearer the floor as it was more moist with it's water bowl/pool area there.

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## FrogsFascinated

I moved him into a different tank today that has nothing in it, aside from damp papertowels and two fish tank decorations for him to hang on to or mess around with. One's a bridge, and the other is like an old sunken barrel. Nothing he could hurt himself with  :Wink:

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

That is a good start. 
I would also cover the sides and back with some kind of background material , it can be as simple as a brown paper bag. 
This will lessen stress on the poor fellow. 

Hope he gets better soon. 





> I moved him into a different tank today that has nothing in it, aside from damp papertowels and two fish tank decorations for him to hang on to or mess around with. One's a bridge, and the other is like an old sunken barrel. Nothing he could hurt himself with

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

And a half round log hide if he feels the need for some private time.

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## irThumper

How's Pogo doing, any updates??

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## FrogsFascinated

Hello guys, irThumper, thanks for reminding me to come on here and give you guys the news. Pogo passed away yesterday morning, sadly. My mom and Pogo's previous owner's close friend were talking and they decided that my mom could perform an autopsy (Please don't think we didn't want to do something kinder, something like burying  him, she did this to see what happened and so we could gain knowledge for other people) So she did this to find out why he passed. When she looked inside him all of his organs were fine, he had some poo in his intestines so we know he was still digesting food (I had been feeding him normal worms now, we was much more willing to eat them), and his color looked great (Although he had passed that morning), but she did find part of the tissue (One of the layers around the organs) was black. My mom said it seemed like some sort of infection, so his body put fluid all around it (Healing fluids, what your body does. I'm sure y'all know the whole gist). So we think because of all the fluid was why he was so puffy, and another thing is that since there was so much pressure from the amount of fluid in him that it put too much pressure on the nerves to his back legs and caused the back leg paralysis. 

There was nothing we could have done for him, but it makes me happy, and I'm hoping it makes you guys happy, that we did try to save him, and that we didn't just let him wilt away, letting him suffer without trying any treatment.

Thinking differently, imagine how happy he is now, up in froggy heaven, he has his back legs back, no paralysis, and can jump around as much as he wants. He can live a happy eternal life now, without having to worry about anything.


I'd like to thank all of you for helping me out with Pogo while he was still here, and I'm sure he was happy to know that all of you were helping out. Thank you for all of the knowledge you guys have helped me gain about frogs, whether it's their diets, habitats, or anything else. 

I'm hoping my mom will let me get more frogs once this holiday and busy season craziness settles out, as frogs are such fun creatures!

So anyways, thanks again everybody, and I'm sure if I do get more frogs I'll come here if I need any help.


~Emily R.

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## irThumper

> Hello guys, irThumper, thanks for reminding me to come on here and give you guys the news. Pogo passed away yesterday morning, sadly. My mom and Pogo's previous owner's close friend were talking and they decided that my mom could perform an autopsy (Please don't think we didn't want to do something kinder, something like burying  him, she did this to see what happened and so we could gain knowledge for other people) So she did this to find out why he passed. When she looked inside him all of his organs were fine, he had some poo in his intestines so we know he was still digesting food (I had been feeding him normal worms now, we was much more willing to eat them), and his color looked great (Although he had passed that morning), but she did find part of the tissue (One of the layers around the organs) was black. My mom said it seemed like some sort of infection, so his body put fluid all around it (Healing fluids, what your body does. I'm sure y'all know the whole gist). So we think because of all the fluid was why he was so puffy, and another thing is that since there was so much pressure from the amount of fluid in him that it put too much pressure on the nerves to his back legs and caused the back leg paralysis. 
> 
> There was nothing we could have done for him, but it makes me happy, and I'm hoping it makes you guys happy, that we did try to save him, and that we didn't just let him wilt away, letting him suffer without trying any treatment.
> 
> Thinking differently, imagine how happy he is now, up in froggy heaven, he has his back legs back, no paralysis, and can jump around as much as he wants. He can live a happy eternal life now, without having to worry about anything.
> 
> 
> I'd like to thank all of you for helping me out with Pogo while he was still here, and I'm sure he was happy to know that all of you were helping out. Thank you for all of the knowledge you guys have helped me gain about frogs, whether it's their diets, habitats, or anything else. 
> 
> ...


I am so sorry you lost Pogo  :Frown:  I know exactly what it feels like because I'm losing my poor little sHEila... he keeps prolapsing, and is in pain, and even if it were to have been stitched, and him starved for a prolonged period of time, there was no guarantee to the outcome or that it would not reoccur. What quality of life is that?  :Frown:  I'm glad you did what you could to help Pogo, and that you were willing to share what you found out. Please when you go to get another frog do NOT get one from Petco. The frogs in our local store are sick and dying constantly and corporate doesn't give a rip, even though I have reported the issue numerous times. Best to find a breeder of captive raised babies and research them to get reviews from people who have purchased from them. Thanks for sharing Pogo's story with us and I hope you have much better luck with your next frog  :Frown:  *HUGGS*

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## elly

So sorry for your loss, glad you got a chance to examine him for cause of death.

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## Heather

So sorry for your loss  :Frown: . Sometimes people don't understand our sorrow in losing frogs, but they are our beloved pets too. Hugs!

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## Lynn

Hi Emily
I'm very sorry to read this , very sorry to learn you lost Pogo.
Sincerely, Lynn

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