# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > General Discussion >  Might get 3 cobalts, need advice please

## XDragonFrogX

Ive been talking to someone who breeds darts and I am thinking about getting 3 cobalts(they are 3 months old) from them. What size enclosure would be good for them? Can I use coco fiber? Would fake plants be OK to use until I can get them some real plants? Any help would be greatly appreciates as i am new to these guys!

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## nok1888

You should take your time and research and build your terrarium up from the start. Living terrariums (so I've read many times) need to be set up 6-8 weeks before introducing the frogs so the wee eco system has time to get up and running.

I saw 3 Azureus in a 18 x 18 x 24 at a reptile shop. I'm going for a 24w x18d x 18h to give mine enough floor space and still have some height 


-------------------------------------------
2.0 Border Collies - Jinky and Chance
3.0 Cats - Monty, Dodger and Crunchie
1.1 Royal Pythons Orlina and Sedrick
0.1 BCI Boa - Aasia
1.0 Western Hognose - Hagrid
0.1 Bearded Dragon - iiara

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## Lynn

I agree with nok1888. Build 1st.  :Smile: 
Plus, the frogs need to be be in a simple quarantine enclosure ( of which should be a minimum of 30 days ) anyway.
Take your time with your build; you will get to know you frogs while they are in quarantine  :Smile: 

A little 2.5 or 5 gallon glass tank with a glass lid , plain dampened paper towels ( de-chlorinated water), some leaf litter, a sprig of pothos plant of which will not die if it is not in soil ( prepare the plant cutting properly ! ), a VERY shallow dish for additional water droplet collection ( ie glass petri dish of which needs an extra spray of water to collect a bit in on the bottom of the dish)

ie I have had a R imitator ( juvenile ) in a quarantine set up since it was born May :

I use that little container to move him during a weekly cleaning. 
 :Smile:  He is being  re-homed this Saturday ! 

( 18"h as a minimum) The substrate and /drainage layers take up a lot of space.
My 2 cents :Coco fiber should not be used alone. Fake plants should not be used in dart frog enclosures.

Some basics necessities:
ABG, Atlanta Botanical Gardens Mix | Reptile Substrate | Josh's Frogs
Hydroton, False Bottom, and Drainage Later Materials | Naturalistic Vivarium Substrates | Josh's Frogs
Substrate Barrier, Substrate Divider | Naturalistic Vivarium Substrates | Josh's Frogs
Magnolia Leaves (1 Gallon) - Leaf Litter | Josh's Frogs
Terrarium Plant Packages | Live Terrarium Plants | Josh's Frogs
Long Fiber Sphagnum Moss | Reptile and Amphibian Substrates | Josh's Frogs
Exo Terra Digital Thermometer | Josh's Frogs
Exo Terra Digital Hygrometer - Humidity Monitoring | Josh's Frogs  ( avoid open probe hygrometers- the water gets in them !) 
Exo Terra Mini Mister - Hand/Pressure Misting | Josh's Frogs

I could not live without this !
MistKing Misting Systems by Jungle Hobbies Ltd

Keeping Dart Frogs | Understory Enterprises

 :Butterfly:

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Heatheranne

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## XDragonFrogX

Would a 5 gallon tank or somilar size plastic storage tub be ok for the 3 frogs? Im deciding on azureus or cobalt. Would it be OK to get them now and keep them in quaraenting until my tank is up for 6 weeks? The only reason im kinda in ahurry to get them is because this is kind of a one chance deal lol... Id REALLY hate to pass the little ones up, but at the same time, I want everything 100% right for them. I have a smaller pothos plant already that I can use. Just need to pick more up for the vivarium! And some leaf litter, otherwize I have everything else haha

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## Tonya Freeman

Hi Amber. Let me see if I can help you with a few of your questions.

First of all, congrats on your opportunity to get some frogs!

Now, for your tank size. With a trio I don't think I would go for anything under a 20 gallon. Once your frogs reach maturity there is a chance that there could be some aggression issues. It doesn't always happen.. but when you end up with a female heavy tinc trio it is common. Azureus are notorious for female/female aggression. Some people never have a problem.. but you would just need to watch them when they get older to check for any issues such as wrestling, thinning frogs, etc. Some of that can be helped by having a larger tank, properly planted, with lots of hiding spots and visual barriers.

As far as coco fiber, I woud personally recommend getting yourself some ABG mix. Not only would your plants love it.. but so will the microfauna (isopods/springtails). There are many places with it available online, or there are recipes to make your own.

Fake plants.. I would just skip that. Real plants are healty for the frogs. They help to keep humidity levels up from what I understand. I would just save up for the real deal. You don't have to go for anything expensive or exotic. The frogs don't care  :Wink:  Be careful though. Some of the cheaper plants can take over your viv.. like pothos and wandering jew. That can be good and bad. It takes work to trim them back.. but you get more opportunities to look at your frogs and make sure they are ok while trimming.

I think that a 5 gallon tank or tub would be ok. If you had the option I think I would go with a 10 gallon though. Not knowing how long your viv setup may take.. you would want your little guys/gals to be happy and stress free which would give you time to build it well. As Lynn said, the quarantine tank can be as simple as you like. Damp paper towels are great so you can monitor their feces to make sure that it isn't watery and you can monitor their feeding as well to make sure they are all getting what they need. A simple pothos cutting is all that would be needed as far as plants go.. and a water dish for rehydrating.

Tincs aren't known for their climbing.. but that doesn't mean that they don't climb. I would agree that at 18" high they would have enough room to be comfortable.

Hopefully that helps a bit.

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## XDragonFrogX

That helped a ton actually! Thank you! Im gonna be using a 20 gal long tank. Ill get a bigger tub for them too. Which is gonna help me a ton to get their main tank ready. I may go ahead and see about making a back ground for it as well and i wanna pick up plenty of live plants  :Smile: . Ill update later if i end up getting them!

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## Lynn

> That helped a ton actually! Thank you! Im gonna be using a 20 gal long tank. Ill get a bigger tub for them too. Which is gonna help me a ton to get their main tank ready. I may go ahead and see about making a back ground for it as well and i wanna pick up plenty of live plants . Ill update later if i end up getting them!


Hi Amber,
I think the 5 gallon is ok for the quarantine. The little 2.5 gallon I'm using has a thumbnail species in it. 

Remember .... you will have to get a secure top all so .... of which will need to covered somehow ( with plastic, plexi, or glass to keep the humidity up)
It will never go to waste. As you will be needing more darts  :Big Grin:  

Quarantine is great for new dart _frog owners_ as well. It is a great time to learn how the frogs behave, you will really get to know them!

I hope the links above helped! Josh' has good Prices. His bags of ABG mix ( link above) are a decent price; low enough so you're not tempted to want to mix it yourself. 

Also, I wanted to mention- the need to get set up with the fruit fly culturing supplies. You might even practice making a culture; especially if purchasing 'local'  pre-made cultures are out of the question. Buying them pre made on-line are expensive because of the shipping. 

Wondering? If you are getting tincs, have you considered getting 'a pair'. 

Auratus or leucomelas will do well in groups w/ its own species. I believe the leucs are easier to care for than the auratus.  Just a thought. The leucs are very bold. 

Enjoy!
Please let us know if you have any questions

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## XDragonFrogX

I only had the azureus and cobalts to choose from, and I got the auratus  :Smile:  3 little buggers! they are now set up in a sterilite bin with wet paper towels, a pothos plant, and a over turned shallow lid  :Smile:  They are in a 6 qt that seems ok for them but im considering something a bit bigger(I have 15qt ubs as well but they have holes in them as they where used for leopard geckos at one point). He also gave me 2 fruit fly cultures. I am gonna buy some supplies to make 5 more from him in the next week or so to keep them going  :Smile: . Im really hoping I will do OK with these guys! Ive heard so much about darts being hard to care for. This is the only reason I havnt gotten them sooner. But thought id make the leap! I REALLY like these guys though! So much neater in person!
I am picking up the 20 gal long today so I can get it started. I thought about doing a background but I think ill just do a basic one for now with just the drainage layers and life plants and worry about the background later

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## Tonya Freeman

I'm assuming you meant Azureus? If not.. well, that is what you have  :Wink: 

When I got my first darts I went a bit overboard with the quarantine tank. I think I used a 56 quart sterilite container with some sphagnum and could barely find my little froglets in there lol. You don't want to go too large.. but you want them to be comfortable. They are rather tiny as froglets.. smaller than most people imagine (which is why mine had a quarantine mansion!)

You chose a bold and hardy frog. Azureus are often recommended for beginner dart owners. Like I said before, once they reach maturity you will need to keep an eye on them. There could be aggression due to breeding age.. and if that happens you will need to pull out the bullied frog and put it into its own enclosure. 

May I ask what you are doing about feeding? Have you purchased the flies and supplements yet?

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## XDragonFrogX

LOL yes i meant azureus.. ive been looking up all kinds of darts and got mixed up when i was typing! lol sorry!
I edited the above post but it must of been while you where writing your post haha. They gave me 2 fruit fly cultures. one that was started in august and one that is newly started  :Smile:  I am gonna go back and get a starter kit from them as well that will be good for 5 more cultures!

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## Tonya Freeman

I figured that is what happened lol. I just wanted to make sure that when you researched them.. you were indeed researching the correct ones  :Wink: 

You will want to get on a routine for making the cultures. With 3 frogs... you may want to try doing 1 culture per week. You will most likely end up with an excess of flies.. but it is better to have too many than not enough! That will give you an idea of what culturing schedule would work for you. Sometimes cultures can crash for the strangest reasons. By making a new one weekly you would still have enough from your previous cultures to feed from. Always start your new culture with flies from your youngest culture. There will be less of a chance of transferring mites that way. Mites are one of the things that can destroy your culture! You could invest in some mite paper to sit your cultures on, or you can make your own with paper towels and a mite spray.

As far as supplements go.. dart frogs need a calcium supplement with their feedings. I personally think that Repashy Calcium plus is the best.. but that is just my opinion. Supplements are only good for around 6 months.. and would need to be replaced after that. There is no need to buy a large container of supplements when you will probably end up throwing most of them out. I also give a monthly dose of Repashy Superpig to my leucomelas for color.. but I don't know if it would make a difference with Azureus. I occasionally do a dose of Repashy Vitamin A once per month as well. Calcium plus is a great all in one supplement.. so many only use that.

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## XDragonFrogX

I have calcium, calcium with d3, and multi vitamins already. So how many cultures shoukd i have going at a time?
The only thing that is confusing me about the fruit flies is the timing. When to start one, when to feed off, and when to re start. And how many to do at a timd lol

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## Tonya Freeman

That was the scariest part for me. I was always afraid that I wouldn't have enought because I wouldn't culture on the right schedule. I'll tell you what I do. That may help!

Ok.. I started off making a new culture weekly. At the time I had 5 froglets. I ended up with more than enough flies that way.. and I was doing a daily feeding since they were young. I tapered off a bit and starting making cultures now as soon as my last one booms.

For example.. lets say I made a culture today. I would add a few flies (10-20 is what I choose to go with) into the new culture. Once flies have sprouted from the new culture then I make another new one from that. It usually takes 5-10 days for the boom.. but it insures that you have new flies going into your new culture. I've noticed that the 'boom' time can vary with different media used. 

So what I would do is start off making a new culture each week on the same day of the week each time. That way you get into a nice schedule. After a few weeks you will have the hang of it and be able to decide if you can go as far as 10 or so days between them. 

I'm currently culturing hydei, mels, and turkish gliders for my frogs.. so my specific schedule wouldn't work for you. That is why I suggested trying to make a weekly one and then work out the kinks  :Smile: .

From the time the culture booms you may be able to feed from it for a few weeks.. up to a couple of months in most cases. I always had 4 going at once and would get rid of my oldest one each week to replace with a new culture. 

Be sure to not allow the lids to touch on your cultures. That is an easy way to transfer mites to what may be a mite free culture. Also.. all vivs have mites of some type in them (frogs find them to be tasty snacks) but keeping your cultures around your tanks isn't a good idea. I choose to keep mine on a shelf in the laundry room to make sure that doesn't happen.

Editing to say that I reread my post and one part may be confusing.. When I said I had 4 going at once.. I didn't mean that I started 4 at the same time. You have 2 cultures now. If you made a new one that would put you up to 3. Another one a week from then would make 4.. and when you make another the following week, that is when I would get rid of my oldest culture. Let me know if that doesn't make sense and I'll try to explain a bit better  :Smile: .

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## XDragonFrogX

Ok thank you so much! That def helps me a ton!
It made sense to me  :Smile:  but im sure ill be asking more questions later  haha. I ordered a glass lid for my 20 gal long so ill be getting that set up soon  :Smile:

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## Tonya Freeman

You are very welcome  :Smile: . I'm more than happy to help you with any questions that I can. Best of luck with your new frogs!

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## XDragonFrogX

Ok here is how I have my 6qt setup. I did have paper towels in there but all poops seemed ok and they where use to being on moss, so I thought id just use the moss instead.. Is that ok?
Also, I need to pick up some saran wrap because the ff's are escaping through the top. I guess the lid isnt flesh with the tub so theres a small gap in between that they are getting out at! Im REALLY enjoying these little guys! And am seriously thinking about going back to ger some cobalts as well(im regretting not getting them lol.. but if I got them instead of the azureus, I would of regretted not getting the azureus! haha) but im not gonna just to get them right now. They are only about a hour drive from us so its not terribly far and Id rather avoid shipping haha. Plus they are good people to get from! Their setups where amazing! Very great guy haha def knows his stuff  :Smile:

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## Tonya Freeman

Aww! How tiny!! Adorable  :Smile: 

I kept my leucs on sphagnum.. and although paper towels are recommended.. I think that is mostly for the ease of picking up feces if you intend on sending it out to be tested. You may want to add some leaf litter in case they want to stand on something a bit dryer than moist moss.

Ha, it is an addictive hobby! I have plans of ending up with around 20ish tanks myself over time. Although it is tempting, you may want to wait to get more frogs until you have your azureus in their home and you can make sure that they are doing well. It is a big plus that you have someone close by to get frogs from. No one in my area has any darts.. so I have to have mine shipped. It adds to the stress of the frog and I wish I could find someone in my area to get away from that. 

As far as the lid goes.. hmm. Maybe if you try lining the edge of the tub with paper towel? If you did that you would need to make sure that there were no gaps for your little ones to get through. I've never tried it.. so I can't say if it would work or not.. sorry.

Once again, congrats on them! They are beauties!  :Smile:

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## XDragonFrogX

Yeah I need to go ahead and order the leaf litter.. And im not gonna get anymore until I know im doing good with these 3! So it will be awhile before I get anymore haha

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## Heather

Your new frogs look great  :Smile: . 

Little note for you...Tinc's can climb as I'm sure you've found out. My cobalts climb to the tippy top of their home  :Smile: . 

You could also use a nylon over the lid to keep fruit flies in. Changing to plexiglass or glass for your permanent home is easiest. 

They will grow to about an inch when adults. A 20 gal will be nice for them. My 2 will be moving into an 18x18x24" soon. I have a pair. They are so active and playful  :Smile: . 

I start new ff cultures every 2-3 weeks. A started culture takes about that long to get going. Just as one booms I use some to start the next. 

Here is a nice video from Joshsfrogs.
http://www.joshsfrogs.com/catalog/bl...g-fruit-flies/

Congrats on your new frogs!  :Smile:

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## nok1888

That's the frogs I want, them and Azureus Bronze

What happens if you get mites in your culture? Is that the culture ruined or how would you separate the mites from the flies? I'm getting my setup next year after xmas so trying to learn all I can just now


-------------------------------------------
2.0 Border Collies - Jinky and Chance
3.0 Cats - Monty, Dodger and Crunchie
1.1 Royal Pythons Orlina and Sedrick
0.1 BCI Boa - Aasia
1.0 Western Hognose - Hagrid
0.1 Bearded Dragon - iiara

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## Tonya Freeman

Mites are pretty inevitable. You will get at least some type of mites in your culture. Thankfully there are different types of mites. White mites are called grain mites. They will not really impact your culture too bad. You can microwave your media that you've prepared for about 30 seconds or so when making it. That will usually destroy any mites that may already be in the media. Then you would let it cool before adding your flies. 

As for black mites.. they are a little tougher. You can tap your flies into a cup with a bit of calcium powder before adding them to the new culture. This has been shown to lower the amount of mites transferred to the new culture. If either type of mites become prominant your culture will crash.. or have a very short life cycle. 

It's great that you are researching ahead of time!

-Edit- One of the most important things.. which I failed to mention.. DO NOT keep your new cultures close to your old cultures. Mites will transfer from your older cultures without an issue. That is why it is important to keep them on a mite paper/paper towels sprayed with mite spray, and to make sure that your lids do not touch each other.

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## nok1888

I heard you can put some vinegar in the media to help stop mites is that true? I'll do the microwave bit to try stop them


-------------------------------------------
2.0 Border Collies - Jinky and Chance
3.0 Cats - Monty, Dodger and Crunchie
1.1 Royal Pythons Orlina and Sedrick
0.1 BCI Boa - Aasia
1.0 Western Hognose - Hagrid
0.1 Bearded Dragon - iiara

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## Tonya Freeman

I believe vinegar is used more for keeping mold out of your cultures. It may do a little to prevent mites.. but they are pretty hardy creatures.

If you start with mite free cultures.. for example, buying from a reputable breeder or sponsor, you should be able to get mite free without problems. When you do see a mite or two, don't freak out  :Smile:  Keep it away from your other cultures, but keep in mind that it will take weeks for them to build up a colony that could destroy your culture in most cases. It is recommended to throw your cultures out after 30 days because of that. Some cultures will continue to produce longer than that.. but at a risk of a mite infestation. That is why I used my culture schedule so I could replace my 30 day old culture with a new culture each week. 

It sounds scarier than it is. It will probably happen to everyone a few times in the hobby.. but if you take precautions such as getting rid of old cultures, keeping new ones separated from older, using mite paper or spray, not allowing lids to touch each other, and keeping the cultures away from your tanks, you most likely won't have many issues.

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## Heather

I make my culture media with boiled water. I keep a citronella candle on the shelf next to my cultures. By the time the mites get in and start multiplying I've already used some of the clean ff's before that point to start the next culture. When the sides of the culture darken on the 1/3 bottom and tiny white bugs move in it it's time to toss that culture. If you started the next culture 2 weeks prior you'll already have enough to feed from the new culture and enough to start another culture from that newest culture  :Smile: .

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## Tonya Freeman

> I make my culture media with boiled water. I keep a citronella candle on the shelf next to my cultures. By the time the mites get in and start multiplying I've already used some of the clean ff's before that point to start the next culture. When the sides of the culture darken on the 1/3 bottom and tiny white bugs move in it it's time to toss that culture. If you started the next culture 2 weeks prior you'll already have enough to feed from the new culture and enough to start another culture from that newest culture .


I've never heard of using a citronella candle. That is interesting! You just leave it next to the cultures unlit?

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## Heather

Yep. It's just a cheap Walmart candle. Nothing fancy.

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## Tonya Freeman

I may give that a shot! Thanks for the tip  :Smile:

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