# Frogs & Toads > Frogs >  MBD in a Green frog?

## Caspian

Unfortunately, I fear my Green frog, Bumpy Digtoad, has MBD or a vitamin deficiency. Here's a _Trouble in the Enclosure_ :

1. Size of enclosure? - 20 Gallon

2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences? - Only Bumpy

3. Humidity? - I mist the tank every few days

4. Temperature? - 18-23 celsius

5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish? - Conditioned tap water

6. Materials used for substrate? - Small Smooth stones

7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and  other materials. - How were things prepared prior to being put into the  viv? - Small Smooth stones (boiled), driftwood (thoroughly washed), fake plants

8. Main food source? - Crickets

9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often?) - Calcium mix dusted crickets every 2 weeks

10. Lighting? - Day/night schedule

11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure? 

12. When is the last time he/she ate?  - Last night

13. Have you found poop lately? - Yes

14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine) 

15. How old is the frog? - Unknown, presumed juvenile due to size

16. How long have you owned him/her?  - 8 months

17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred? - Wild Caught

18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats? - Crickets, 5-8 daily

19. How often the frog is handled? - Only when changing enclosure (very rarely)

20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area? - Low 

21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc) 25-50% water changes every 1-3 days

Earlier on this evening, I was watching Bumpy hunt, as I do every night. I was checking her sides and belly whilst looking through the glass underwater, when I noticed both of her middle toes twitching. At first, I thought it'd stop, but even when I took out the crickets, it didn't. I have heard that in some frogs this is normal, but also that it is a sign of MBD or a vitamin deficiency.

It is very plausible that it is MBD/Deficiency because I only dusted her crickets every 2 weeks and I've been unable to to get her to eat other food items, even earthworms, which has concerned me for a long time.

I'm pretty certain she has MBD or a deficiency of some sort, but she's still hunting crickets. Even so, what should I do? Should I begin constantly feeding her crickets with calcium mix, or should I set up a hospital tank?

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## Caspian

I forgot to mention:To make matters worse, Bumpy is an extremely skittish frog. In the whole 8 months I've kept her, I've only ever seen her eat about 6 times. I usually have to place the crickets in her tank, and just check the next morning. another problem is that her tank is almost fully water other than a piece of driftwood, a partially submerged ledge where her clay cave is, and a small upcropping of stones. She does have one lilypad in her tank with water reeds as well.I'm thinking of moving her to a hospital tank to make this easier. I am picking up a multivitamin mix tommorow, and a fresh calcium mix.

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## Caspian

I'm going to pick up the vitamin and calcium supplements today, and I've directed the UVB lamp onto her tank. I recently have used up all my spare tanks, so I'm probably going to have to either quickly buy a new one or place Bumpy in a container.


I would *REALLY* appreciate it if someone could at least give me a tip on how to treat MBD. I'm a bit disappointed that no one has even offered their opinion yet.

As for Bumpy, she's fast at evading me and swimming, but she won't hop at all.

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## Lynn

Hi  Caspian,
Is Bumpy an american green tree frog -Hylidae cinerea ?

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## Caspian

No, Bumpy is a Green frog (Rana Clamitans). Basically, a smaller version of the American Bullfrog (Rana Catesbiana)

She's in her hospital tank right now, with moist paper towels for substrate, and a water dish. Unfortunately, I had to use my partially cracked 5 gallon tank, but it is no danger to her, and she cannot break the glass.

I also just picked up an Exo Terra Calcium + D3 powder, and a Exo Terra Multi-Vitamin. I'm probably going to feed her in a schedule of: 5 crickets per night, each night dusted with the vitamin D3/Calcium, every 5 days Multi-Vitamin instead of the Calcium. Do you think this is a good schedule?

Also, her feet are still twitching, she's not hopping, but she's crawling around and swimming well in her water bowl. She definitely knows I'm there, and she's hiding, so she's obviously still got a lot of strength in her. I'm just hoping that she'll eat tonight. If she doesn't, I may be forced to force-feed her, which I am prepared to do.

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## Lynn

I think that's a good feeding schedule.
However I am not experienced with bullfrogs, Caspian. Sorry
If she has been eating , why would tonight be any different?
I think Heath has a bull frog.- I'll give her a buzz.

Read and review a bunch of good care sheets and fine tune her care  :Smile:

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## Heather

Is there any way you can use a bowl to feed? It will allow you to know how much he is eating each day. It will also help to control the calcium/vita D supplement. 

Do you have a photo of his home?

Lightly dust his food with the calcium/vita D3 daily until the symptoms resolve, then switch to every other day. I would also use a multivitamin supplement one day a week, not on the same day as the ca/D. Absorption is altered when using them on the same day.

If you can, I would recommend picking up some liquid calcium supplement to do a soak. That way if he does not eat for a few days you'll know he is getting the calcium.

I just sent this to another member here. It helps to understand the "why" in using the supplements  :Smile: .

Tetany is a group of symptoms exhibited when one has low blood calcium levels. Symptoms and effects can include numbness, tingling, twitching, tremors, lack of coordination with waking and hopping due to lack of the ability to contract muscles, seizures, weak or brittle bones, paralysis, and can lead to MBD. Lack of calcium can have effects on bones and muscle. It can even effect the functions of swallowing and bowel motility, due to the limited contractility. 

Vitamin D3 is necessary for proper absorption of calcium. In nature vitamin D3 is absorbed from the UVB light emitted from sunlight. In captivity it is necessary for us to provide the vitamin D3 through supplementation. 

Calcium in nature is ingested by the foods in which frogs eat, indirectly. The insects that they eat feed on leafy green plants which provide the calcium. It can also leach into some water sources from calcium rich rocks.

Sorry it took me so long to see your post. If ever you don't get a quick reply you could try sending us a PM. There are many posts daily to scroll through. Unfortunately they don't post in order of priority. We'll find them quicker if you give us a "hey, I need help"  :Smile: .

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## Heather

Lynn, you read my mind  :Smile: . Thanks!

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## Caspian

Lynn,

Don't apologize, it's fine.

Well, she may be scared by the sudden move from her normal tank to the hospital one, but yeah, she'll most likely be eating away tonight.

Alright, I'll go message her.

Yeah, I've been so busy with my Chorus frogs and Salamanders, that I've not been paying as much attention to my other frogs, something I will definitely correct. Also, Bumpy's setup needed fine tuning. I'm definitely going to add a larger land area so it's easier for her to catch crickets.

Also, I've directed the UVB lamp towards her tank, so that might help.

Thanks  :Smile:  this is the first time any of my frogs have been sick, so I'm really nervous. But I'm willing to bet Bumpy will pull through. From what I've researched about MBD, I'm thinking that Bumpy's case is only in the early stages.

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## Caspian

Wow, you type fast Heather!

I'll put in a small bowl to place the crickets in, I've plenty lying around.

I'll get a photo of the hospital tank in a few minutes, if the battery on my camera is full.

I know exactly where some of the liquid calcium is, I'll pick it up ASAP  :Smile: 

I'd just done some research on Tetany. As for Bumpy, the only symptoms of tetany I can see are the twitching of her toes, and lack of hopping.

I will definitely begin dusting her crickets more often, that's for sure. The same will go for Gnag's, though Gnag already has a pretty good diet of 1 earthworm every other day and 5-8 crickets per night.

Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it  :Embarrassment:  Hopefully, Bumpy will pull through

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## Heather

It's tough with bullfrogs since their food often gets wet and can rinse off. Those crickets are also pretty good at cleaning themselves off. However, they aren't the brightest bugs and tend to hop right in the water and drown.

I feed my big boy on top of his cave. It sits in the water. It's only about an inch out of the water but works pretty well.

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## Heather

You're welcome  :Smile: .

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## Caspian

On a quick note: Would the croaking of my Pacific Chorus frogs scare Bumpy? They croak loud, and constantly throughout the whole night, and the hospital tank is currently beside theirs, so should I move it farther away?

Yeah, I usually place the crickets on the water reeds in Gnag's tank, and she'll just take a huge leap at them. For Bumpy's, I place them on the driftwood and water reeds, and she goes at them there.

By the way, is it photo's of her original tank or the hospital tank that you want?

And yeah, those crickets aren't the brightest little guys. I kept on having to scoop one out of the water and placing it on the water reeds, except every time I placed it on the water reeds, it'd run right off and fall in the water again!

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## Heather

I think it may annoy her being so close. I'd move it to minimize and possible stress. 

Her normal tank.

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## Caspian

I've moved her away from the Chorus frogs, hopefully it'll help.

I'm afraid to say Bumpy hasn't eaten at all. The crickets are still in the bowl. I'll check tomorrow, and if there's no sign of success, I'll buy some of the liquid calcium and give her a soak. How long should the soak be, by the way?

Here's two older images of her tank, when she was first placed into it:


Earlier on today I tore apart her 20 Gallon, and I'm going to begin to remake it so it's easier for her to catch crickets, and less easy for crickets to get the calcium dust off of them.

I don't know whether I should try force feeding her or not.

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## Heather

Have you done a water check or a water change lately? If the toxins are high they'll get lethargic and stop eating. Try a 50% water change. How often do you do water changes and what % of water? Bullies, when eating, produce a lot of waste. Way more than we can see. Have you ever seen them pee? My 5" bully can pee about a 1/4 at a time. That's a lot if waste (ammonia). Doing partial water changes each week will help. A biological filter will help even more. Do you know if your filter has a bio filter pad in it? 

Have you ever had fish tanks? Has anyone ever taught you about the nitrogen cycling in a live tank? If not, I can link some information for you.

If you can get a water test kit or strips this will give you more information as to if this is the problem or not.

How is the temp in there tank?

Force feeding is stressful, but may be necessary. Lets try a soak...

Pick up some plain, unflavored pedialyte and some reptaboost. Save the reptaboost for now. Give him a pedialyte bath. It's one part pedialyte to 10 parts dechlorinated water for 15 minutes. You can do the soak in a Critter keeper or tupperware with a lid with holes in it. Be sure to poke the holes in the lid from inside out so they are smooth so he doesn't get hurt. I very carefully use a awl or poker heated and I just poke holes right through the underside of the lid. If you do this, please be careful not to burn yourself.  You can even set the container in his actual tank to help decrease stress, though you don't have to. 

If he is toxic, soaks will help pull out some of the toxins. The pedialyte will help replace lost electrolytes.

Continue to offer food. Give him another day to see if he eats. Maybe he will feel better after the soak.

Let me know how he does. Lets hope he eats.

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## Caspian

Afraid that I don't think Bumpy ate at all last night. Still, she's not looking overly skinny, but not fat, so I suppose she's just too scared to eat.

The temperature usually stays pretty cool, never anything overly warm or overly cold. I'd say room temperature, though it does drop at night a bit.

Oh, I know how much bio-waste they produce. However, Bumpy doesn't produce as much as Gnag.

Would this product help her?:
Exo-Terra Reptile Calcimize Calcium Water Conditioner -3.3oz PT 1971 | eBay
Or this?:
http://www.petland.ca/reptile/reptil...ectrodize.html

Well, I usually do 25-50% water changes at least every 3 days, but I will admit I forgot to do one for 5 days, since I was so busy with my new PCF's.

I've done a lot of research on the nitrite/nitrate and ammonia cycles, but I don't know how to test the water.

Where would I buy the reptaboost? I can try to get the pedialyte today, but I'm not sure about the reptaboost. Man, reptaboost is so elusive. I've been trying to find a place where they sell it, and I haven't for a LONG time now. I think I'm going to get some of that Exo-Terra Electrodize, since I have no idea where to buy either Reptaboost or pedialyte. It does say "_To ensure sufficient vitamin and mineral intake, Exo Terra has developed  a line of liquid supplements that can be easily added to the drinking  water of reptiles and amphibians._" and "_Exo Terra Electrodize Liquid Electrolyte & Vitamin D3 Supplement  helps restore and maintain electrolyte levels; prevents or reverses  metabolic bone disease; strengthens the immune system; and stimulates  appetite, activity and normal behaviour._"

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## Caspian

Nevermind on my earlier conclusion. I'll try and get the pedialyte, as you suggested, and hopefully, I'll be able to find some repti boost. If I don't, I'll get the Exo Terra Electrodize.

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## Heather

The electrolyte replacement would be great. 

Reptaboost is sold at any pet store in the retile section.

 Pedialyte is sold in any grocery store or department store like Walmart or Kmart. You can find in the baby section of the store or in the pharmacy area.  Though if you use the electrolyze that you listed, you might not need pedialyte. I'd have to read the ingredients to be sure. 

That liquid calcium looks fine. Check to see if the electrolyze has calcium in it also. I bet it does.

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## Heather

Yes, this is perfect.

http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/electrolyte.php


Image by exoterra.com

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## Caspian

I couldn't find any reptaboost, so I got the Calcium water conditioner. If I'd known that the Electrolyte solution could've helped, I would've gotten it  :Cower:  my bad. Here's what I got along with the pedialyte:
Exo-Terra Reptile Calcimize Calcium Water Conditioner -3.3oz PT 1971 | eBay

I can't find reptaboost in any petstore I've gone to, 2 Mr pets stores, Petland, petcetera, so I don't know if you can get it in Canada. I'll check the Pet Habitat and any other nearby pet stores as soon as I can.

Anyways, I'm gonna go give Bumpy her 15 minute soak of a solution, 1/10 of it made up of pedialyte, 9/10 of it made up of dechlorinated water, in a tupperware container with holes poked in from the inside of the lid. Hopefully, she'll perk up a bit. I'll let you know after the soak is done.

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## Caspian

Well, the 15 minute pedialyte bath is over, and currently Bumpy is sitting in her water bowl, and I'm going to leave her alone for the rest of the evening, except when I come in to feed my other amphibians, and of course, to go to sleep. I've placed 5 fresh, dusted crickets in a better dish, of which will be very hard for them to escape from, but easier for Bumpy to catch them from. This may sound grim, but I crushed one of each of the crickets hind legs so they can't hop out. Hopefully, Bumpy will eat some.

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## Heather

That's great! I have had to do that to the crickets to before. I hope he eats for you tonight. I'll be waiting to hear.

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## Caspian

Unfortunately, Bumpy has not eaten a single cricket. However, I went ahead and forcefed her a dusted cricket last night, since her feet were twitching so much it seemed more like they were trembling. My god, that was horrible. I certainly don't want to do that again, even though I followed the instructions in this video: How To Force Feed a Frog or Toad the Right Way !EMERGENCIES ONLY! - YouTube

One good thing is that her feet have stopped trembling, and she's pooped once (disgusting topic, I know). I'm not sure whether she'll even eat any crickets in her hospital tank. Remember, this is a extremely skittish and easily scared frog that will never eat in front of you and will duck into cover at the first sign of a predator. I'm thinking of moving her back into her refurnished 20 Gallon, and maybe set down a dish to put the crickets in so I'll know if she's eaten any?

What do you think? Also, could that calcium drinking water conditioner help out?

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## Caspian

Bad news: Bumpy hasn't eaten at all, and is getting skinnier every day. Her legs have begun twitching again, and she doesn't even seem interested in the crickets. I NEED more help on this, I'm at a loss of what to do. I spent 5 hours today just waiting for someone to at least offer advice or give help, but NO ONE has.

I honestly don't think, that at this rate, Bumpy has a chance of survival  :Frown:

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## Lynn

> Bad news: Bumpy hasn't eaten at all, and is getting skinnier every day. Her legs have begun twitching again, and she doesn't even seem interested in the crickets. I NEED more help on this, I'm at a loss of what to do. I spent 5 hours today just waiting for someone to at least offer advice or give help, but NO ONE has.
> 
> I honestly don't think, that at this rate, Bumpy has a chance of survival


Caspian,

Sorry you are having so much trouble. 
May I suggest you email Dr Frye or get her to a herp vet.  A herp vet  may be able to prescribe something that will increase her apatite. You have to get food into her! You could use _ Fluker's Repta Boost_ and/or chunks of earthworm?  PM Grif to get information on where to get the best worms? (  http://www.frogforum.net/members/grifthegreat.html  ) If she truly has MBD she could have a lot of difficulty even moving about. If is is MBD it can be corrected- it takes a longtime. 

A herp vet will need a detailed description of what has transpired. Include the frogs weight in grams
 ( use a little food scale to weigh her). Include a measurement from the tip of her nose to her vent.  Remember to mention the* prior* use ( frequency) of supplements. You will need advice as to how long and how frequently to use this product: 

  (  http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/electrolyte.php  )

If you are able to order this on amazon - you could have it by friday  :Smile: 

 Dr Frye's contact information: ( he may get back to you about the exo product ? ) 

http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html

other information- including an additional link to the exo-terra eloctrolyte product that is for amphibians (is has calcium and vit D3 init ) 

http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-supplies.html

Lynn

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## Caspian

Thanks, Lynn

Chunks of earthworms? You mean I could kind of slip the chunks into her mouth?

I've never been able to find any Reptaboost at any of my nearby major pet stores. It's really frustrated me for a long time now.

I don't know whether I have the money for a vet trip, I've spent a lot of money recently setting up my salamanders and Chorus frogs tanks. How much would it cost? But I do want to email Dr. Frye. See his opinion.

I *WILL* definitely pick up that product today, and use it. I know exactly where to get it.

If she hasn't eaten or gotten food by tonight, I'm going to forcefeed her. It's stressful, but we're out of options here. I'll try to go for 2 calcium + Vit D3 dusted crickets and 1 Multi-Vitamin dusted cricket.

I don't know whether she's gotten MBD yet or not, but she can still swim strong and has some strength in her yet. She's having difficulty crawling around land, but most frogs of her kind do even if they are not sick. Even so, she does not look good. She's skinny, and looking weak. I'll get you a photo today.

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## Caspian

I've emailed Dr. Frye now. Hopefully, he can help me out.

Is there any way we could find out how much of that product to use? I know where to get it, actually, there's 2 stores that I know sell it, so I just need to pick it up today and know how to use it.

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## Heather

Hi Caspian,

I'm sorry I didn't write yesterday. Very busy day.

Lynn has listed some great information for you. 

I do not know why she is not eating. That is what the vet will help us to find out. She may have a parasite? I would recommend panacur and metronidazole, but only a vet can prescribe. I would also treat your other frog in case.

She needs calcium and vitamin D. Since she hasn't eaten she isn't getting any vitamins or nutrients. This means you will have to feed her everyday until she is better. She may needs soaks from time to time also. She may need a hospital tank. 

Bullfrogs are harder to force feed than others because they are very strong and they're extra slippery. They can push and pull with their front legs and kicks with their back. The wrapping in paper towel helps. The wash cloth will work but it has to be rinsed very thoroughly and avoid using any fabric softener. I would recommend only washing your washcloth in dechlorinated water. If he does has an infection of some type, you can boil the washcloth and allow it to cool. Again, moisten with dechlorinated water before holding him with it. Be sure to use a bleach type cleaner on your pot so you don't get sick using the pot after. Regular soap may not be enough. I have a designated pot for only frog items that is bleached after each use and not stored in with our regular pots and pans.

You'll need to wrap the cloth snugly around him like a swaddle. If you tip him back almost on his back and hold him snuggly (but do not squeeze him) while getting ready to feed him, they get almost limp. Bunnies do the same thing. It works well for medicines and nail trims (for bunnies). I would recommend using a thick plastic spoon, plastic med cup, or guitar pick instead of a credit card. The card is big and clumsy to work with. Have a helper handy that can put the bug in while you open his mouth. The quicker the better. 

Try and stay calm. Gently talk to her. I know it sounds stupid, but the calm tone vs. frustrating words helps them stay more calm. Everyone of mine I've had to feed has learned to be calmer when i talk quietly to them rather than when my sighs would sneak out. They can feel your stress. Just try your best and know you are helping her. 

On the water. Test strips come in little bottles in the aquarium section. They have little color coded charts on them for easy reading. The strips are inside. You just hold the strip at one end and dip it in the water. Wait the proper amount of time as instructed on the bottle. It's usually only a few seconds. Then compare to the chart. 

If there is ammonia in the tank then a stronger bio filter is needed. Your water changes are fine. Usually once a week is good if you have a good bio filter. A bio filter is a filter in which good bacteria that help to break down nitrogenous waste (caused by fish and frog urine and feces) into safer nitrates, live within the filter pad(s). Look up on the Internet The Nitrogen Cycle of an aquarium. There is tons of data. I can link one if you'd like. Once the beneficial bacteria are at good levels, they will help keep the nitrates at safer levels. Water changes can decrease the percentage of nitrates in the tank. Without the beneficial bacteria the ammonia or nitrogen waste cannot break down. Ammonia and nitrites can cause disease and death to fish and frogs. They end up living in a pool of their own wastes. Hope that helped a little. 

At this time I think you need a vet that will prescribe you the medications you may need. Test your tank water. Do a partial water change and retest again after the water settles. You'll unfortunately have to feed her everyday for awhile. I would actually feed her daily for a week. Build her up. She is going to be mad, but you will be keeping her alive. Use the calcium with vitamin D3 supplement daily until all twitching is resolved. Do not over-dust, just lightly dust as usual. We don't want to give her too much too fast. How big is she now? I would feed her about 2 to 3 large crickets per 2" of frog daily. 

Have your bugs ready to go, dusted, and I'd take the large legs off for now. It makes of easier for you. 

Please send me a PM if you have any trouble. I see the PM's way faster than the posts. Whenever anew post pops up it bumps itself to the top of the unread list. Since there are so many each day, your post may get pushed down the list as more recent ones add on. If you PM me, it will show up as a red number on my tapatalk app as soon as I log on. I tend to read those first.

If you get the liquid calcium or the liquid electrolyte replacement for frogs/reptiles, use it tonight as a soak before you feed her. Once the twitching starts, we need to act quickly. It's not a good idea to let it persist without treating the deficiency or muscular and bone damage can occur.

I don't want to scare you. I'm sorry your baby is having trouble. Hang in there. You can still help her. If you are having lots of trouble feeding her, I might have you text my phone so I can send you a video. Give it a try. PM me if you have any trouble.

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## Heather

> Thanks, Lynn
> 
> Chunks of earthworms? You mean I could kind of slip the chunks into her mouth?
> 
> I've never been able to find any Reptaboost at any of my nearby major pet stores. It's really frustrated me for a long time now.
> 
> I don't know whether I have the money for a vet trip, I've spent a lot of money recently setting up my salamanders and Chorus frogs tanks. How much would it cost? But I do want to email Dr. Frye. See his opinion.
> 
> I *WILL* definitely pick up that product today, and use it. I know exactly where to get it.
> ...


Yes, you can cut pieces of earthworms. They are soft and easy to digest and actually more nutritious for them than the crickets. Be sure they have no added dyes or scents added to them. sometimes fish bait shops carry the worms with additives to attract fish. Great plan on the dusting - two with Ca/D3 and one with mvi. 

I'm glad to hear she's still swimming strong. That means if you get the nutrients in her, she can still pull through. They are not great walkers for sure. That is usual for them.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Heather is giving excellent advice. Follow it to the letter. 

Lack of eating is most likely due to the move. Using the bowl trick is a good idea, but it may also stress the frog because it is not used to this feeding method let alone a strange object being added to an already unfamiliar environment(hospital tank).

Using the water treatment you mentioned, buying liquid calcium and adding it to the water dish, and doing an electrolyte replacement soak will help greatly. You can also add a couple drops of honey to the electrolyte soak to give a boost of energy so that she isn't so lethargic.

Keep a close eye on her and look for an abnormalities in the skeletal structure. Especially in the legs and around the mouth. Signs of MBD will show their first if it is effecting the frog's bones. Drooping jaw, severe underbite, severe overbite, ect.

Keep us posted.

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## Caspian

Well, I can't pick up the Electrolyte solution until tomorrow, which is really frustrating.

That's a ton of info on forcefeeding  :EEK!: 

Bumpy's body appears mostly OK, actually. However, the twitch is still there, she now seems to drag her leg along a bit when she walks, which leads me to fear she's developed a full case of MBD. However, she's swimming strong.

I'll be honest, the way I do it, I'm not sure whether I've hurt her or not  :Frown:  I usually first take her and put a cloth around her waist, covering the legs. I then gently push the credit card in her mouth, and she'll open her mouth after a few seconds for about a half a second. I plop the cricket in then, and withdraw the credit card. However, I've been stressed the first 2 times I've done this, so I'll try using a calm tone and talking quietly to her, and I'll use something other than a credit card.

I actually tried letting the crickets crawl around in her hospital tank last night, for the whole night, and she didn't even go for them. She seemed too scared. I'm going to see if I can put a black kind of wallpaper around the hospital tanks sides and back.

Earlier, I forcefed her 1 calcium dusted cricket. I'm too worried it'll stress her out to forcefeed her more today. I absolutely *HATE* doing it, and I'm sure she does too.

I do have this on hand, is this the liquid calcium you're talking about?:
Exo-Terra Reptile Calcimize Calcium Water Conditioner -3.3oz PT 1971 | eBay

I'm afraid I transferred her to the 30 Gallon just about an hour and a half ago, hoping she'll do better in there, but after hearing this, I'm going to move her back. That was a stupid move of mine. As for the bio-filter, the 30 Gallon has an amazing filter and bio-filter. The water has never, ever gotten even the slightest bit murky. The filter for the 20 gallon is a terrible, weak thing. I am planning to get a proper one as soon as I can.

As for the possibility of a parasite, I don't have the money to get a vet treatment. And it's a shame, because about a month and a half ago I was thinking of treating both of them when I had the money  :Cower: 

On the concern for Gnag, she gets more than she needs. I've begun dusting her crickets every other day, I feed her big earthworms from my compost (we don't use pesticides, and I don't know where to buy earthworms) on occasion, and I'm going to give her a multi-vitamin cricket dust at the end of this week. Honestly, if I am concerned about any one of my amphibians getting sick, Gnag would be the least concern. She's a happy, healthy, and chubby frog. Even so, I'll treat her for parasites when I can.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Well, I can't pick up the Electrolyte solution until tomorrow, which is really frustrating.
> 
> That's a ton of info on forcefeeding 
> 
> Bumpy's body appears mostly OK, actually. However, the twitch is still there, she now seems to drag her leg along a bit when she walks, which leads me to fear she's developed a full case of MBD. However, she's swimming strong.
> 
> I'll be honest, the way I do it, I'm not sure whether I've hurt her or not  I usually first take her and put a cloth around her waist, covering the legs. I then gently push the credit card in her mouth, and she'll open her mouth after a few seconds for about a half a second. I plop the cricket in then, and withdraw the credit card. However, I've been stressed the first 2 times I've done this, so I'll try using a calm tone and talking quietly to her, and I'll use something other than a credit card.
> 
> I actually tried letting the crickets crawl around in her hospital tank last night, for the whole night, and she didn't even go for them. She seemed too scared. I'm going to see if I can put a black kind of wallpaper around the hospital tanks sides and back.
> ...


Use a plastic spoon rather than a credit card. Use the spoon upsidedown starting at one side of the mouth and put the spoon between the upper and lower jaw. Slide the spoon slowly to the front for the mouth while it remains between the jaws and the frog should open its mouth.

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## Caspian

Afraid I can't use the plastic spoon, Bumpy's too small. Just gonna have to stick with the credit card.

I've just forcefed her 3 dusted crickets, and you're definitely right Heather. Speaking in a calm manner did actually seem to calm Bumpy down a bit, especially in comparison to the last 2 forcefeeds.

Anyways, I'm going to continue to feed her 3 4week dusted crickets every night, and on sunday the cricket will get a multivitamin dust. Also, tommorow I'm picking up the electrolyte solution, and giving her a bath.

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## Heather

Great job!  :Smile:  

It's tough, but sometimes we just have to. I actually used a thick plastic spoon when I had to feed my pac. Ise whichever is easiest for you.

I'm glad you got some nutrition and calcium in her. The choice you have listed above for electrolytes is fine.

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## Ashley

Dr. Frye said my frog's seizures sounded like a lack of vitamin and calcium.  I live in a very remote place and even though I ordered my meds overnight, I didn't get them until 3 days later.  However I got my frog back on track and eating on her own before the meds came.  I still gave her the Baytril anyway once it came in.

All I did was soak my frog everyday in a solution of non iodized salt, sugar (you have pedialyte so you don't need the salt and sugar), and calcium vitamin d3 powder (all I had) dissolved in warm conditioned water for 20 mins a day.  After that I rinsed her in clean water for 5 mins.  I kept her in a 15 quart plastic Sterilite box with air holes drilled in the sides.  With the lid on it was pretty dark inside.  Without any meds this is pretty much all you can do.
If my frog hadn't started eating on her own I would have force fed her.

So, don't give up.

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## Caspian

Yeah, she's become more lively, which is good. I'm wondering whether to give her 4 crickets, because I got to measure her properly, and she is now 3 inches from tip of the nose to vent, though not as big as Gnag's monstrous size of 3 and 1/2 inches. It's like they both grew overnight! They're both growing, and fast! In comparison to my chorus frogs or even my 2 long toed salamanders, Urtham and Gargan, they're incredibly huge!

How much of each ingredient did you put in the solution, Ashley? I might try that, but I don't think Bumpy will eat on her own until she's stronger, and back in her refurnished tank. Remember, this frog is incredibly skittish, easily scared, and may have a parasite.

And this is *way*, *way*, *way* overdue, but thanks to everyone who's helped me out here  :Smile:

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## Ashley

I had read to put a teaspoon of salt and sugar for every cup of water used. However I felt it was too much.  I used about two inches of water in a plastic shoe box. Then put a teaspoon of each ingredient.  For my frog I would dump a little bit out and give her an overturned rock bowl to rest her head on. She was limp and couldn't hold herself up. If your frog can still sit up and swim good then you can use more water.  Just as long as it doesn't go too far above the legs.  Also make sure it has a lid if she is strong enough to jump. Plus the dark should help her feel safer.

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## Caspian

Bumpy's getting better  :Smile:  she's not eating on her own yet, but she's definitely not as skinny as she was, and she even did a little hop yesterday. I think I might try forcefeeding her a dusted earthworm chunk.

There's been no twitching ever since the first big forcefeed of 3 crickets, which is good.

Also, she did poop today, but it kind of seemed... like a fragile poop, if that makes any sense at all. It broke up easily when she plopped into her water bowl this morning.

I'm going to keep forcefeeding her until this upcoming Wednesday, hopefully she'll begin eating on her own before then.

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## Heather

Great job!  :Smile:

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