# Frogs & Toads > African Bullfrogs >  Pyxicephalus Differences

## Terry

It seems that many people who keep African bullfrogs are having diffiulties telling the two species apart.  First, the popular names are confusing. In Africa, *Pyxicephalus adspursus* , the "African Bullfrog (in U.S.)" is known as the Giant Bullfrog, while its smaller cousin, *Pyxicephalus* *edulis* is known as the African Bullfrog. The second problem is the assignment of new scientific names.

Subfamily: _Pyxicephalinae
_           Genus: *Pyxicephalus*
                * Species: _Pyxicephalus_ *adspersus* Tschudi, 1838
                      **Synonym: *Pyxicephalus* *adspersus* _adspersus_ Parry, 1982
                *Species: _Pyxicephalus_ *edulis* Peters, 1854
                      **Synonym: *Pyxicephalus* _adspersus_ _angusticeps_ Parry, 1982

Source: Frost, Darrel R. 2010. Amphibian Species of the World: an Online Reference. Version 5.4 (8 April, 2010). Electronic Database accessible at Amphibian Species of the World
American Museum of Natural History, New York, USA.

OK, time to eliminate the confusion.

*Pyxicephalus adspersus*

Upper jaw withour irregular vertical pale barsNo white spot on tympanum (ear drum)No pale interorbital barDistance from eye to tympanum is about twice the diameter of the eye
_Pyxicephalus edulis_

Upper jaw with irregular pale barsWhite spot on tympanumDistance from eye to tympanum is about the same as the diameter of the eye
There is a third species, *Pyxicephalus* *obbianus* (Calabresi's Bullfrog) that I have not seen in the pet tade and is endemic to Somalia. At one time, the genus *Pyxicephalus* had about 12 species, most of the smaller species moving into the genus *Tomopterna* (or sand frogs, native to Africa and India).

I hope this helps  :Frog Smile:

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## John Clare

Thanks for posting this Terry.  I think the story is a lot more complicated than this though.  I've personally seen several frogs of Southern African origin that are neither _Pyxicephalus adspersus_ nor _Pyxicephalus edulis_, but are certainly members of the same genus but have yet to be described by science.  It's rather frustrating because these make it into the pet trade all the time.

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## Amphibians

Some pictures would definetely help, maybe a section of the caresheet could be dedicated to this? It is a shame that a majority of people posting here asking if they got a giant are told after the fact that its a dwarf.

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## Tofuman

At what age does a Dwarfs stomach start to turn orange?

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## Terry

> Thanks for posting this Terry.  I think the story is a lot more complicated than this though.  I've personally seen several frogs of Southern African origin that are neither _Pyxicephalus adspersus_ nor _Pyxicephalus edulis_, but are certainly members of the same genus but have yet to be described by science.  It's rather frustrating because these make it into the pet trade all the time.


Thanks, John! The world of amphibians is becoming more complicated as time goes by. Many species are shifting to new genera and if one does not keep up with the changes it can be very confusing.

I found a fourth species, *Pyxicephalus cordofanus* (nomen dubium), not much is known about it. Also, *Fejervarya rufescens*, this species looks very much like *P.edulis*. 

*Hildebrandtia ornata* is a nice looking frog from southern Africa that is also known as *Pyxicephalus ornatus*.

Most of the species in *Tomopterna* look like smaller versions of their *Pyxicephalus* cousins. I wonder if these "sand frogs" are being confused as color morphs of *P. edulis*?

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## John Clare

I suppose that is quite possible.  We need to get some photographs so we can compare them with what's showing up in the pet trade.

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## Kevin1

WOW Thank you so much for posting this. We (pyxie enthusiasts) really needed a good explanation between the two major species.

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## Terry

> WOW Thank you so much for posting this. We (pyxie enthusiasts) really needed a good explanation between the two major species.


I agree  :Smile: 

I've kept an African bullfrog in the past and enjoyed it being a part of my life for 20 years. It is so important that people do a little homework before buying frogs or toads so they can plan a suitable habitat for their pet. The genera _Pyxicephalus_ and *Tomopterna* are in chaos as there are new species being discovered that have not yet been identified by scientists.

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## Paul Rust

*How about creating a full blown article Terry? I know it takes a lot of time and effort but it would be a superb piece if you wrote it!*

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## Terry

I have prepared an African Bullfrog Identification Guide. This will hopefully explain the differences between _Pyxicephalus adspursus_ and _P. edulis_. Also covers some species in the genus Tomopterna, popularly known as sand frogs or "pyxies". Please click on the link below to access the document. I will be looking forward to your comments and suggestions. Thanks!  :Frog Smile: 

http://xenopus.freeshell.org/abig.doc

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## onedge30

Thank you very much, Terry! That is great to begin to see why the confusion exists. And if a seller does not have an interest in pixies, I can see how the confusion can easily pass by their inspection. 

Yes, an article would be fantastic. We could even include it with a specific guide on sexing them as well. Pictures of the contrasting differences would really help. I am highly visual and love the visual reference.

Wow, if only studying a species in the field would actually pay something. Very sad that to get the information, someone must give up everything to dive completely into the study.

Question, Terry. Where does this funny 'species'(used very loosely) coming from Tanzania fit? It really looks like edulis.

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## Terry

> Thank you very much, Terry! That is great to begin to see why the confusion exists. And if a seller does not have an interest in pixies, I can see how the confusion can easily pass by their inspection.


Thanks for the comment, Jeff! I am sure that a few breeders/importers sell frogs without knowing what species they are. A local pet shop was selling a beautiful toad but didn't know what species it was, I was the one who did some research and identified it. Why should the buyer have to do the "dirty work"?  :Big Grin: 




> Yes, an article would be fantastic. We could even include it with a specific guide on sexing them as well. Pictures of the contrasting differences would really help. I am highly visual and love the visual reference.


I am not sure how to put the article on the forum, that is why I provided a link to my website. Maybe John or Kurt would be able to figure it out. I am also highly visual and love lots of pictures. John is the "pyxie guru" and could help out with the sexing issue. My main interest is in Pipidae and amphibian taxonomy.




> Wow, if only studying a species in the field would actually pay something. Very sad that to get the information, someone must give up everything to dive completely into the study.


That would be so cool to do some real field research. The zoo I worked at has a close relationship with the Jo-burg Zoo and the South African Amphibian Conservation Center. I had an opportunity to work with Mantellas, Madagascar rain frogs, African reed frogs and several critically endangered/extinct in the wild amphibians. It was a great experience!  :Frog Smile: 




> Question, Terry. Where does this funny 'species'(used very loosely) coming from Tanzania fit? It really looks like edulis.


You have to remember that the family Pyxicephalidae has some 67 species and to make it more confusing is that species are being assigned into mew genera. As DNA analysis improves, biologists are finding out that species they thought were related are in reality not related at all. That's one reason why Pyxicephalus was split into at least two genera. Some scientists consider adspersus and edulis to be subspecies. There is a third species, P. obbianus that is endemic to Somalia which I don't know much about right now. I understand that there are Pyxie hybrids around. Maybe that's your "funny species"!

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## onedge30

Arrgh!  :EEK!:  I think my brain is going to explode!  :Frog Smile: 

Ok, just looking around FF at pictures, I find what was thought to beobbianus and serveral that look like adspersus but with edulis coloring!!  :Frog Smile: 

I love all the information, but trying to look at the visuals with out a specific 'true' guide, your mind just begins to smoke.  :Cool: 

I wonder with all the pictures and comments on FF, if we could begin to build a pic genius library with pictures from FF? And maybe some from crossover sites.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  If we could put together a verbal description for each species to start with. 

Oh, just thinking out loud.  :Big Grin: 

Cheers

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## Jace

*I never realized the diversity within this group!  I stumbled onto this species quite by accident-my first male was brought into the petstore a cute quarter-size froglet and not even the people selling him realized what he could grow into.  It was a bit of a surprise to realize that my so-called "pyxie" was going to remain anything but!!  Now my total is up to three P. adspersus and I have been searching in vain for a P. edulis to add to my collection with no luck. * 

*I agree completely with Jeff-any sort of written and visual aide would be amazing.  Thanks Terry!*

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## Kevin1

Thanks a lot Terry This will help us all a great deal.


As for the "tanzanian subspecies" I'm thinking someone must have been very confused(me!). I was told about it when I first really started to research pyxies. So I started searching for information on it. Needless to say I didn't find much..For awhile I thought it might be P.Adspersus Angusticeps...Now I think the people that told me about this "Tanzanian subspecies" were just as confused as I. lol

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## Terry

Thank you all for the kind comments. I used to keep P. adspersus a few years back and since moved on to other species. However, all the commotion going on among African bullfrog keepers has got me interested again. The guide is only a beginning. As I collect more information about this group, I will update the article. I would appreciate any assistance you can give me. Thanks  :Frog Smile:

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## Terry

> Thanks a lot Terry This will help us all a great deal.
> 
> 
> As for the "tanzanian subspecies" I'm thinking someone must have been very confused(me!). I was told about it when I first really started to research pyxies. So I started searching for information on it. Needless to say I didn't find much..For awhile I thought it might be P.Adspersus Angusticeps...Now I think the people that told me about this "Tanzanian subspecies" were just as confused as I. lol


Hi Kevin,

Ahhh, the famous P. adspersus angusticeps  :Big Grin:  It seems that in 1982, some scientist named C. R. Parry decided to revise the genus Pyxicephalus. See if this is confusing:

Pyxicephalus adspersus edulis (Parry, 1982)
Pyxicephalus adspersus angusticeps (Parry, 1982)
Pyxicephalus adspersus (Parry, 1982)

So is P. edulis a subspecies or a distinct species or even the same species as P. adspersus?  :Frog Surprise: 

Alan Channing (1994) says that P. edulis differs by its call, behavior, smaller size, shorter dorsal ridges and smoother skin. Lambiris (1989)  considers P. edulis a subspecies and points out the following distinctive features: white spot on tympanum, bars on the upper lip and interorbital stripe (as mentioned in my article).

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## onedge30

Kevin,

Yea, that whole renaming with the adspersus in each name is crazy. I think in my research found that that is now considered obsolete and not listed in the current taxonomy. I think that was Red List.

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## Kevin1

> Hi Kevin,
> 
> Ahhh, the famous P. adspersus angusticeps  It seems that in 1982, some scientist named C. R. Parry decided to revise the genus Pyxicephalus. See if this is confusing:
> 
> Pyxicephalus adspersus edulis (Parry, 1982)
> Pyxicephalus adspersus angusticeps (Parry, 1982)
> Pyxicephalus adspersus (Parry, 1982)
> 
> So is P. edulis a subspecies or a distinct species or even the same species as P. adspersus? 
> ...




Ah..So according to Parry, P. A. Angusticeps was distinct from P. A. Edulis?.. I find that interesting.
 I know that name is obsolete now..but do you know of any information that distinguished Angusticeps from the others?(adspersus, edulis, etc)

I appreciate all the information you have shared with us thus far, Terry. :Big Applause: 






> Thank you all for the kind comments. I used to  keep P. adspersus a few years back and since moved on to other species.  However, all the commotion going on among African bullfrog keepers has  got me interested again. The guide is only a beginning. As I collect  more information about this group, I will update the article. I would  appreciate any assistance you can give me. Thanks


Let me know if there's anything I can do to assist you. I'd be happy to help.

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## Terry

Hi Kevin/Jeff:

Yeah, it's really confusing since much of the literature is obsolete. I think the confusion lies with the three distinct trends of thought concerning the genus Pyxicephalus. One side says that there is only two species in the genus: P. adspursus and P. obbianus; leaving P. edulis just another form of P. adspursus. Second, that P. adspursus and P. edulis are subspecies; and the third that there are three distinct species. I am going to side with Channing, Carruthers and Roedel and say that there are three species.

BTW, Pyxicephalus adspersus edulis (Parry, 1982) and Pyxicephalus adspersus angusticeps (Parry, 1982) are synonyms of P. edulus. My head is spinning  :Frog Surprise:

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## onedge30

Alright, Terry. Now that we have your head spinning, how about your eyes crosssing!

Here is something I have been working on. I think they are correct. I had trouble understanding the interorbital bar.

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## Terry

WOW!  :Big Applause: 

That's great Your photos and annotations are spectacular. One problem, it is P. edulis that has the interorbital bar. The interorbital bar is a faded, light stripe that goes across the top of the head connecting the two eyes, kinda like: 0----0. I think a great African bullfrog guide can be written if we pool all of our resources together. If you or others would like to volunteer, let me know. Thanks!

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## John Clare

Jeff, are you sure that's an edulis?  It doesn't look like it to me - looks like something else.

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## Terry

_Pyxicephalus obbianus_ Calabresi, 1927 

Endemic to Somalia
Description: similar to P. adspursus; tympanum larger than the eye and lies very close to it. Some individuals lack the vertebral stripe.

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## Terry

> Jeff, are you sure that's an edulis?  It doesn't look like it to me - looks like something else.


Well, John, looks like we have a lot of work to be done. Hopefully, we can get enough people involved so we can identify these frogs properly.

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## Tofuman

That's a great description :Big Applause:    Thanks allot.

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## onedge30

Terry - Yes, I am volunteering!  :Big Grin:  

Damn. So close with the illustration, but just missed the mark. Ok, now that you have explained the interorbital bar. (but isn't 'inter' - inside? so inside the eye?) It has always looked to me, that adspersus has a very individual iris. Is there a name for that type of adspersus eye?

John .... I hoped that that was an adult edulis. After all the pictures I have been looking at, I really had hoped.  :Frown:  Shoot!!! Now that you say that.... I think I understand. I can try again.

IMHO(with what little I know) adspersus is kind of unique, but edulis and obbianus should look similar? The physical descriptions only work on the adults, not the babies or juveniles? We really need to lock down pictures of the 'original' described species? But on all counts ..... count me in. I can work on more graphics as needed.

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## John Clare

The frog on the right is adspersus.

Terry and everyone - I encourage you to search the forum for photos posted over the past 2 years and pick the ones that best illustrate what you're trying to show.  Then post the links and I can work it all into an article and credit everyone involved as authors.  What do you think?

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tgampper

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## Terry

> Terry - Yes, I am volunteering!  
> 
> Damn. So close with the illustration, but just missed the mark. Ok, now that you have explained the interorbital bar. (but isn't 'inter' - inside? so inside the eye?) It has always looked to me, that adspersus has a very individual iris. Is there a name for that type of adspersus eye?


Thanks for volunteering. Let's take John's advice and look through all the photos of Pyxicephalus that are posted on the form. We'll need to pick the best ones for the article. I was also baffled with interorbital. I remembered that the prefix "inter" means to cross over boundaries and "orbital" refered to the eye, so the light bulb in my brain went off and realized the bar is between the eyes, not within the eye area.  :Smile: 




> John .... I hoped that that was an adult edulis. After all the pictures I have been looking at, I really had hoped.  Shoot!!! Now that you say that.... I think I understand. I can try again.
> 
> IMHO(with what little I know) adspersus is kind of unique, but edulis and obbianus should look similar? The physical descriptions only work on the adults, not the babies or juveniles? We really need to lock down pictures of the 'original' described species? But on all counts ..... count me in. I can work on more graphics as needed.


Great job anyway. You have the right idea, just wrong frog. The key descriptions work for adult frogs and non-hybrids. I understand that juvenile P. edulis also has the white spot in the tympanum. That might be the only way to tell the difference between juvenile species. The frog on the left looked like edulis to me, the spot on the tympanum is either round or crescent shape, according to Carruthers. But, John is the pyxie guru  :Smile:

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## John Clare

> The frog on the left looked like edulis to me, the spot on the tympanum is either round or crescent shape, according to Carruthers. But, John is the pyxie guru


Well this is the thing - I don't claim to be a guru on Pyxies, just that I know when something is not a _Pyxicephalus adspersus_.  After that, I probably know less than you Terry.  Do you think the one on the left is _Pyxicephalus edulis_?

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## onedge30

John, this is edulis?

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## Ebony

What a beautiful photo. :Big Applause:

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## onedge30

> Thanks for volunteering. Let's take John's advice and look through all the photos of Pyxicephalus that are posted on the form. We'll need to pick the best ones for the article. I was also baffled with interorbital. I remembered that the prefix "inter" means to cross over boundaries and "orbital" refered to the eye, so the light bulb in my brain went off and realized the bar is between the eyes, not within the eye area.


Terrry, it is "interocular" bar. According to Channing.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Terry

> Terrry, it is "interocular" bar. According to Channing.


You're right, Jeff  :Smile: 

Carruthers and du Preez calls it "interorbital". I hope it's just a matter of semantics.  :Confused:

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## Kevin1

WOW did I miss a lot over the weekend. I agree with John that the frog pictured looks different from an edulis. In my opinion it looks physically like a hybrid between the two. Or more of an inter-grade. Something like whats happened between the 3 budgett's frog species. Edit- So the frog in the comparison is obbianus? That would make sence.

Jeff the last picture you posted is an edulis. I know it was directed to john(sorry) but I'm sure he would agree.

Nice diagrams by the way.  :Smile: 

I have lots of pictures of chubbz I would be happy to donate to you all I'll send them to Jeff tonight. His younger pictures are very good quality(it was before my good camera broke).
I'm very excited about this project we're starting. I'm happy we're taking action to try and get to the bottom of this as a forum. :Smile: 

If there's anything else you all need let me know. I have a few pyxie pictures I've "collected off the internet from places. I had hundreds of different pyxies pictures on my old computer..but it broke. lol

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## John Clare

The frog in Jeff's picture is more like what I know as edulis.  Terry, do you have any of Carruthers or Passmore's books to hand?  I know the book they wrote together in the late 90s has both species pictured extensively.

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## Malachi

My P. Edulis,

I believe it is male?

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## Terry

Thanks, Malachi, for your great pix of P.edulis. If you would like to contribute to our project, you are most welcome.

I will be busy today and won't be back until this evening. I will look in all my African field guides for a good description on P. edulis. I also have Roedel's book which has a detailed description of edulis.

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## Malachi

I would love to. I can bust out the good camera and can get some better shots from different angles as well. Let me know what you need.

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## onedge30

Wow! I just received 3 different emails from associates in South Africa who have information on the genus Pyxicephalus .... and the photos are coming in DIFFERENT!!!

As soon as I can organize what is happening, or try to clarify what photos are being thrown around, I will let you all know. But it looks like what we are calling edulis may not be. Very weird.

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## Kevin1

Very odd Jeff, The pictures posted by Malachi and the one you posted before that are what I always thought to be the "classic" Edulis.
Did you receive the pictures I sent you last night?

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## onedge30

Kevin, yep got your pictures. Last pm will download today.

The pictures that I am being sent from Africa, are looking like the edulis we know, is the odd man out. I need to look more closely at this information before I post it. And send a few emails back and forth with the sources for positive identification.

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## Malachi

What parts of Africa?

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## Terry

> The frog in Jeff's picture is more like what I know as edulis.  Terry, do you have any of Carruthers or Passmore's books to hand?  I know the book they wrote together in the late 90s has both species pictured extensively.


Hi John,

I have several books by Carruthers and Passmore as well as Mark-Oliver Roedel and Margaret Stewart. I have posted some description information on P. edulis on the *Edulis?* thread. Interestingly enough, it was Stewart that alerted me about the several other species of Pyxicephalus that are now assigned to Tomopterna.

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## onedge30

Hey Terry,

Sorry about asking you for this book page. I forgot that it is from Buck Rogers. 


I don't know the book this came from, but these pictures are what I am leaning toward as adspersus and edulis. 



This picture was sent by a field research professor from South Africa. She worked on a study of Pyxicephalus. This is her study photo for P. edulis. This picture is from the Timbavati area near Kruger National Park, South Africa. 

I have sent her some of the images that we are calling edulis. I am waiting for a response.

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## onedge30

With the email from South Africa. The researcher sent these descriptions. 

Adult P. adspersus
Mass: 90 g to 1.2 kg (some say up to 1.4 kg)
SVL: 90 mm to 230 mm (some say up to 250 mm)
Colouration: light green or brown-green or dark green
Other:
Banding above mouth is absent or feint.
White spot on tympanum is absent or small.
White stripe down spine is absent or thin and feint.

Adult P. edulis
Mass: Guestimate: up to 400 g?
SVL: Guestimate: up to 150 mm?
Colouration: yellow-green or brown
Other:
Banding above mouth is prominent.
White spot on tympanum is prominent.
White stripe down spine is prominent.

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## Kevin1

I'm anxious to hear what she says about our "Edulis". They're clearly very different from those pictures. Those pictures look like specimens I used to call the Tanzanian subspecies of Adspersus.

Thats a handsome Adspersus in that book by the way.

Thanks for posting.

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## Terry

> With the email from South Africa. The researcher sent these descriptions. 
> 
> Adult P. adspersus
> Mass: 90 g to 1.2 kg (some say up to 1.4 kg)
> SVL: 90 mm to 230 mm (some say up to 250 mm)
> Colouration: light green or brown-green or dark green
> Other:
> Banding above mouth is absent or feint.
> White spot on tympanum is absent or small.
> ...


I have the book that Darryn (Buck) sent you in your last post. It's called *The First Field Guide to Frogs of Southern Africa*, by Vincent Carruthers. He also wrote a companion guide called *Frogs and Frogging in Southern Africa* (includes CD). They are both available from Amazon.com. I recommend both of these books if you have an interest in African frogs. The researcher's description matches the books. I'll be compiling all the information for the guide soon. Thanks  :Big Applause:

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## John Clare

This bears out what I suspected, and that is that we rarely see edulis for sale.  Therefore, what are we seeing for sale really?

And related to this, is this frog _Pyxicephalus edulis_?  The photo is from my African Bullfrog article:


It seems likely to me that it is.

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## Terry

Jeff,

Do we have permission to use her photo on post #45? If so, that would be perfect.

John,

The photo you just posted is P. edulis. I was confused at first with the coloration and markings and thought it would fit perfectly in the genus Tomopterna, but the spot in the tympanum identified it as P. edulis. Also, the other features like the bars on the upper jaw, the distance between the eye and the tympanum and also the faint interorbital or interocular bar. We could use that photo also.

I would say that the individuals in both pictures are females, am I right?  :Smile:

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## Terry

> This bears out what I suspected, and that is that we rarely see edulis for sale.  Therefore, what are we seeing for sale really?


IMHO, I think many importers/sellers of frogs and toads are just taking the word of their supplier and not really finding out for themselves what species they do have. Popular names seem to be a problem. If you notice the excerpts from the book that Darryn supplied a few posts earlier - Carruthers list P. edulis as African Bullfrog. In most other places, the African Bullfrog is P. adspersus. So when some suppliers list P. edulis as African Bullfrog, technically they are not wrong. We as buyers need to be more aware. That's why I thought putting together a Pyxie guide would be most helpful. 

Also, many frogs and toads have been assigned new genera or even families. This no doubt leads to confusion. I noticed that some ads list frogs using old names or synonyms, for the example we had earlier, Pyxicephalus delandi, actually in reality it's Pyxicephalus delalandei, now Tomopterna cryptotis. Sand frogs in the genus Tomopterna are also known as "pyxies".

I think we are probably getting more P. edulis but being sold as P. adspersus (which may not be misleading either, since some scientists do not make the distinction between edulis and adspersus). In fact, I kinda like edulis, they are smaller and more colorful. (Please excuse my ramblings  :Big Grin: )

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## onedge30

Until I see differently, I have to agree that the two images of edulis in #45 and John's unknown are the 'true edulis'. And what has been labeled as edulis, in the pet trade, needs to be identified. 

Terry, I have the credit info for the image in #45, but I will double check on usage. 

Another question comes up, for me, and that is that the images in #45 and John's, for edulis, are juveniles and not adults. So, what does a full adult look like?

I just receive an email from Louis du Preez with the pages from his book, *A Complete Guide to the Frogs of Southern Africa*. First, shock as to my requests for help on clarification had reached him. Second that he took the time to send information. What I am getting at ..... I sent him back images of what we seen labeled as edulis and an image, that I believe, to be an adult African Bullfrog - edulis. So, I hope to hear from him, and get some clarification. 

This is the image that I believe may be an adult African Bullfrog - edulis. We will see.

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## John Clare

> I would say that the individuals in both pictures are females, am I right?


That animal is from the San Antonio Zoo.  They acquired several individuals about 2 years ago now that were given to them as P. adspersus and they were puzzled as to why they weren't growing bigger, since they already have an adspersus male on display.

The animal in my photo is a male, in my opinion - I had 2 others with which to compare him, and they seemed female.  The size difference between the sexes was not as pronounced as P. adspersus, but the shape dimorphism was similar to P. adspersus.  I may have more photos of this frog.  I'll see what I can find when I get a shot at my other computer.

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## Malachi

Its also kinda Odd that the edulis in the book has a body more similar to say american bulfrog.. where my edulis is fat bodied like the giants.

possibly its starved  :Frown:

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## Terry

> Its also kinda Odd that the edulis in the book has a body more similar to say american bulfrog.. where my edulis is fat bodied like the giants.
> 
> possibly its starved


Most of the pix I've seen of edulis look more like bullfrogs then the fat-bodied adspersus. Maybe it was the fine cuisine you been feeding them.  :Big Grin:

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## Terry

> Until I see differently, I have to agree that the two images of edulis in #45 and John's unknown are the 'true edulis'. And what has been labeled as edulis, in the pet trade, needs to be identified.


I agree with you. I think Malachi brought up the fact that edulis are more "bullfrog" shape than adspersus. That might be another clue in helping describe the species.




> Terry, I have the credit info for the image in #45, but I will double check on usage.


That would be awesome! Thanks!




> Another question comes up, for me, and that is that the images in #45 and John's, for edulis, are juveniles and not adults. So, what does a full adult look like?


Well, I think they are adults. There are very close similarities between juvenile edulis and adspersus. du Preez and Carruthers, in the book you mentioned, states that juveniles of both species are "distinctively marked bright green and black with a pale vertebral line from snout to vent." The photos in the book show that the vertebral line is a pale greenish color and that edulis has a white spot in the tympanum.




> I just receive an email from Louis du Preez with the pages from his book, *A Complete Guide to the Frogs of Southern Africa*. First, shock as to my requests for help on clarification had reached him. Second that he took the time to send information. What I am getting at ..... I sent him back images of what we seen labeled as edulis and an image, that I believe, to be an adult African Bullfrog - edulis. So, I hope to hear from him, and get some clarification.


That is awesome. Dr. du Preez is professor of zoology at North-West University and heads the African Amphibian Conservation Group 
http://www.puk.ac.za/fakulteite/natuur/soo/drk/aacrg/index.html

I hope he gets back with you soon.

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## Terry

> Until I see differently, I have to agree that the two images of edulis in #45 and John's unknown are the 'true edulis'. And what has been labeled as edulis, in the pet trade, needs to be identified.


I agree with you. I think Malachi brought up the fact that edulis are more "bullfrog" shape than adspersus. That might be another clue in helping describe the species.




> Terry, I have the credit info for the image in #45, but I will double check on usage.


That would be awesome! Thanks!




> Another question comes up, for me, and that is that the images in #45 and John's, for edulis, are juveniles and not adults. So, what does a full adult look like?


Well, I think they are adults. There are very close similarities between juvenile edulis and adspersus. du Preez and Carruthers, in the book you mentioned, states that juveniles of both species are "distinctively marked bright green and black with a pale vertebral line from snout to vent." The photos in the book show that the vertebral line is a pale greenish color and that edulis has a white spot in the tympanum.




> I just receive an email from Louis du Preez with the pages from his book, *A Complete Guide to the Frogs of Southern Africa*. First, shock as to my requests for help on clarification had reached him. Second that he took the time to send information. What I am getting at ..... I sent him back images of what we seen labeled as edulis and an image, that I believe, to be an adult African Bullfrog - edulis. So, I hope to hear from him, and get some clarification.


That is awesome. Dr. du Preez is professor of zoology at North-West University and heads the African Amphibian Conservation Group.

I hope he gets back with you soon.

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## Terry

Here is the link to the African Amphibian Conservation Research Group:

AACRG

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## Malachi

Perhaps mine isn't the "true" Edulis because he is defiantly round bodied like the pictures ive seen.
His legs are pretty small too, the Edulis in the book picture has American Bullfrogish legs :Frog Smile:

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## onedge30

Ok, my head hurts. And I am most likely too dense to understand all this, so help me out. These are the emails from a conversation. I will try to post all the links that match. 


Dear Jeff,
   You are correct - identification and species boundaries in _Pyxicephalus_ are confused and are currently subject to research by several groups (although in general the biology of this group is well studied). There is no question that _P. adspersus_ and _P. edulis_ are different species, however, immatures and smaller individuals can be very difficult to identify. Also, it is likely that multiple species are hiding under each of these names, occurring in different parts of Africa, contributing geographic variation to the difficulties of identification. In general, in southern Africa, _P. edulis_ occurs in the lower lying coastal and river valley savanna, with _P. adspersus_ in the high-lying (>1000m asl) grasslands, inland savanna and semi-arid areas.

   I suggest that you find a copy of:

   DuPreez L & Carruthers V (2009) A complete guide to the frogs of Southern Africa. Struik-random House, Cape Town ISBN: 978-1-77007-446

   for the latest overview (P. edulis & P. adspersus).

Also another great site for the sort of information you might need is AmphibiaWeb
http://www.amphibiaweb.org/index.html

for the link to Pyxicephalus see...


http://www.amphibiaweb.org/cgi-bin/a...re-submittedby

this extracts information from authoritative books.
 

regards,
michael

Dr Michael Cunningham
University of the Free State, Qwaqwa
Private Bag X13, Phuthaditjhaba 9866, SOUTH AFRICA
phone: +27-(0)58 718 5327, fax: +27-(0)58 718 5444

My comments back:

 Michael,

Thanks for the heads up. Yes, the variation of the species populations across Africa could be a real problem in identification.  And babies and juveniles are a nightmare to look for specific traits. Traits which may not be there yet or may be there but will fade to adulthood. Tough call.

Great info on the geographic location. I will make note of that. Any thoughts on P. obbianus? 

Your last link leading to CalPhotos even shows some of the problems occurring with identification. In the first link, this photo is neither adspersus or edulis?
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/im...1111+1111+1200

And in this second link, the photo on the left is very different from the photo on the right. What I am finding is the photo on the left is what is called edulis in the states, and the photo on the right is what is called edulis in Africa. What a mess.  :Smile: 
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/im...el-lifeform=ne

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Jeff

Comments back: That I guess I don't see that they can be the same.

Hi Jeff,
At least in Southern Africa it isn't so hard to separate the two species  - including the juveniles. 

DuPreez & Carruthers give the following characters...
edulis usually has a white mark on the tympanum which is absent in adspersus
edulis has a pale interorbital bar (with pale transverse marks on the dorsal eyelid) which is absent in adspersus
edulis has the tympanum about 1 eye-width from the eye, in adspersus it is closer to twice this distance
edulis has irregular pale vertical bars on the upper lip which are absent from adspersus

in addition adspersus tend to have the orange axillary marks and mouth and elongate white marks along the dorsal skin folds

On all these characters the photos from CalAcad check out pretty well - I don't see that the edulis photos are necessarily from different species...it looks more like different individuals being photographed under different conditions and all correctly IDed.

_P. adspersus_ is the type species of the genus (which is type genus of the family).

The type locality for _P. adspersus_ is Cape Town (Cape of Good Hope) - which is actually ~400km SW of their distributional limit - meaning that this is where they were shipped or where the collectors were based (as were all collectors in Southern Africa of that period). At the time of description (1838) a few collectors had just reached as far as the Tropic of Capricorn but it is likely that this particular collection was made around Port Elizabeth on the South Coast.

The type locality for P. edulis is Tete on the Zambezi R in NW Mozambique.

These are the populations that must define the names and they are consistent with the above differences. The captive populations could be from anywhere and so their IDs may be dubious. I notice that one of the photos is referenced to Central South America - which is in error.

P. obbianus is an obscure taxon from Somalia - I've never read the literature on it and don't really know how it would compare.

The real problem is to discover whether P. anchietae from Mozambique near the Zambezi mouth is a valid species different from P. edulis and whether the species from Southern Africa are the same as those from North and West African savannas that are assigned to the same names.



End: Please let me know if there are any clarifying question you all would like me to send back.

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## Terry

Hi Jeff:

Thanks for all your hard work. I do have a copy of du Preez and Carruthers book that was mentioned in your last post. Other than clearing up the obbianus situation, I think we have all the info we need to put the guide together. 

I was interested in Dr. Cunningham's explanation that its not too difficult to tell the difference between the species, so why all of this discussion  :Big Grin: 

I wonder if these "unknown" species are obbianus or some new species making its way into the pet trade? I know obbianus has a small range and only found in Somalia, but evidently has a stable population.

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## Malachi

Possible that edulis in South Africa look different than the "Tanzanian" edulis?




> Angola, Botswana, Kenya, Malawi, Mozambique, Namibia, Swaziland, Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe, and Democratic Republic of the Congo.


How well are these frogs documented in the countries above? I am sure people in those countries would love to sell frogs to us under any name  :Frog Smile: 

So in south Africa there are two easy to distinguish frogs, but now pyxies from other regions are being sold either as the giant or dwarf.

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## Terry

> Possible that edulis in South Africa look different than the "Tanzanian" edulis?


It is quite possible that there are color morphs among different population groups, so what may be distinctively different in South Africa are more similar elsewhere. 




> Angola, Botswana, Kenya, Malawi, Mozambique, Namibia, Swaziland, Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe, and Democratic Republic of the Congo. How well are these frogs documented in the countries above? I am sure people in those countries would love to sell frogs to us under any name


I think for the most part, the genus Pyxicepahalus is well documented, especially adspersus and edulis (obbianus is another story).  P. edulis has two discontinuous ranges: the eastern range overlaps that of adspersus and its western range is also discontinuous: Nigeria, Senegal and Mauritania. I really like the picture of P. edulis in Roedel's book, looks a lot different than in other books.




> So in south Africa there are two easy to distinguish frogs, but now pyxies from other regions are being sold either as the giant or dwarf.


Roedel, du Preez, Channing, and Carruthers has done a great job in describing the species, however, the name "pyxie" refers to frogs in the genera Pyxicepahalus and Tomopterna. Here in the U.S., we often refer to adspersus as a "pyxie". Popular names often lead to confusion.

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## Malachi

An adspersus looks like adspersus. 

An edulis can look a lot different from edulis.

This is what is weird/confusing, not just color but shape it seems too.

And then you have the frogs that seem to be a mix  :EEK!: 

It would be nice to be able to match all the edulis morphs to the region they are from.  :Frog Smile:

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## onedge30

Malachi, I am right with you. This is less clear to me now, then when this thread started. I guess I was completely off, thinking we could find a concrete physical description with an image for each species.

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## Terry

Don't get discouraged  :Smile: 

We have come a long way in coming to a conclusion in this "great debate". John mentioned back when this thread began that is wasn't going to be straight forward. I thought it would be easy too. Was I wrong!

Here are some photos:

P. edulis
Pyxicephalus edulis | AFRICAN AMPHIBIANS LIFEDESK

P. adspersus
Pyxicephalus | AFRICAN AMPHIBIANS LIFEDESK

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## onedge30

Terry, Here is some further confirmation of what we are finding. 

These are P. adspersus:



These are P. edulis:




I will have to send you the location information and copyright. 

Other tid bits: From Caroline Yetman, SA field researcher

"Yes, I examined genetic variation among P. adspersus collected from different localities mainly in Gauteng Province, using universal cyt. b primers. I also used ND2 and 16s primers to look at genetic variation between P. adspersus and P. edulis. This data indicates that P. adspersus and P. edulis are 2 distinct species. The male advertisement call is currently the most reliable trait to distinguish between P. adspersus and P. edulis."

"Yes, many photographed and even preserved museum specimens have been incorrectly identified. As you have noticed, the problem is worst for P. edulis. I have also yet to come across a photo or specimen of P. obbianus."


"It's difficult to say. The specimen in the photograph with the white background is possibly a variant of P. adspersus from, e.g. the Free State Province in South Africa, where P. adspersus is smaller, and produces a slightly different call compared to P. adspersus in Gauteng Province."


"The specimen in the photograph with the black background is possibly a variant of P. edulis or P. adspersus from, e.g. Botswana, or possibly a new species of Pyxicephalus. I obtained a tissue sample from such a specimen in Botswana, and used the ND2 and 16s primers, which revealed that it was highly genetically differentiated from P. adspersus and P. edulis."

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## Malachi

WOW! great post! Look all different frogs. This is a very interesting discussion. Look all different frogs.

What do you guys think on mine?

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## John Clare

The frog in the 5th photo isn't edulis, going on the work we've done.

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## willtilian

2nd to the bottom or 3rd edulis is your frog malachi my edulis looked like the last one and the first edulis

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## willtilian

we should serously write an article and put it in reptile mag

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## Kevin1

> The frog in the 5th photo isn't edulis, going on the work we've done.


I was thinking the same thing.

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## onedge30

> The frog in the 5th photo isn't edulis, going on the work we've done.


I think it is going to depend on which traits are dominant over others. The 5th photo of a very dark pixie has tympanum/ eye ratio of edulis, has stripe of edulis and coloration of edulis throat?

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## Terry

Keeping the thread alive  :Frog Smile: 

I am putting together the African Bullfrog Identification Guide and will have a draft done this weekend.

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## Malachi

http://www.frogforum.net/members/mal...0-3-inches.jpg

this pic you can see the bars, though ill try and get another soon. My edulis is passed out from digesting his first mouse

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## onedge30

Sounds great Terry.  I look forward to seeing the rough.

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## Kevin1

Excellent news, I'm happy we're getting closer. Thanks Terry

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## Malachi

Frog Forum - Malachi's Album: Surms

added a few more Edulis pics to my album, looking a little more adult

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## Malachi

kingsnake.com Classifieds: BRILLIANT PIXIE FROG!

another edulis being sold as a giant  :Frown:

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## Terry

> kingsnake.com Classifieds: BRILLIANT PIXIE FROG!
> 
> another edulis being sold as a giant


Sad, very sad  :Mad:

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## Terry

I have uploaded the rough draft of the African Bullfrog Identification Guide on my personal website. I would appreciate any comments or input you may have. There are a few things that still need to be completed. Since we had access to many photos, I thought I would do the guide in a photo essay style. Please PM me if you have any thing you would like contribute. The link is:

http://xenopus.freeshell.org/abig1.doc

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## Kevin1

I can only say that it's awesome Terry and thanks for making this possible.

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## onedge30

Looking good, Terry. I am looking it over now and will send you some comments in a day or two. The weekend got away from me with an FWC Amnesty Day Event at the Jacksonville zoo and a Repticon in Tampa.

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## Terry

Thanks for the comments. I have been busy the last week or two also. I am putting it all together today and it is an on-going project. Looking forward to additional input.

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## Terry

I have completed the African Bullfrog Identification Guide. I emailed it to John for review. Thanks for all your help. I would like this to be an on-going project, so I will be looking for new material as time goes by.

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## Kevin1

I have some pictures that I would like to show you all, the pics however are not mine.

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## onedge30

What cha' got Kevin? We can always take a look.  :Big Grin:

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## Malachi

Does anyone have pictures of baby edulis? I think a comparison needs to be documented so people can avoid buying the wrong froglet species.

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## Kevin1

The pic is not mine. I showed you this one Jeff. I have a few others but none are more unique than this one.
I have a larger copy of the pic but I won't post it here due to copyright infringement.

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## onedge30

Kevin, Yea, I remember this picture.

Are you suggesting that we add a 'not identified' photos section to the article?

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## Kevin1

Not necessarily. I just wanted to hear some opinions and start a discussion on this frog and others like it. This frog does not say Edulis to me in anyway. While I haven't seen any confirmed pictures of obbianus, I don't think this frog is it. I'm sure it's a possibility.
So other than that it must be some form of Adspersus, perhaps an in-described subspecies. I don't know. Let me know what y'all think!  :Smile:

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## Terry

Hi ABF Fans:

I have sent a draft copy of the ABF ID guide to some folks in South Africa for review. I hope that we can get more photos and info.

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## Terry

Hi African Bullfrog Fans:

I am sorry that the ABF ID Guide is taking longer than expected. I was contacted last night by a scientist who really knows the genus quite well. He is willing to address some issues between P. adspersus and P. edulis with me. If you have a question or two, please PM me *ASAP*. Thanks!

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## onedge30

Hey Terry, I saw this pop up and had to take notice.  :Big Grin: 

My overall question is still finding a definitive specimen photo and description for each species of this genus. Or even a few (2-3) photos that are of each species. 

We can then always have photos that can be classified as 'likely' to be that species, but of a variation. 

I think there is still the question as to the photos of what is known as the dwarf African bullfrog, here in  the US, possibly being some cross. 

What are your thoughts? Who are you working with in Africa?(you can pm if you like)

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## Terry

Hi Jeff:

I don't think we can get a definitive picture of the two species. There are many variations among populations. There are other factors to consider:

1) are we seeing hybrids?
2) some scientists are convinced that P. edulis is just a subspecies of P. adspersus
3) some scientists believe P. aspersus and P. edulis are one in the same species
4) the markings of juvenile P. adspersus and P. edulis are very much alike

It seems that there are differences between adults:

1) adspersus is larger, more widespread geographically, has a uniform green color and lack a pattern
2) edulis is smaller, more colorful and has a complex pattern, lives in lowland areas

P. a. angusticeps is highly unlikely to be found in the commercial market since they are only found in a small area of northern Mozambique. 

The mystery rolls on, but I hope to get some expert answers.

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## onedge30

Terry, 

Let me check with another source and see if they could help. There is a brand new book coming out on Pyxicephalus in early 2011.

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## sgreer14

I have been researching all of this in my spare time. im also confused look at this frog and tell me what you think. he is growing fatter and looks like the edulis. but hes only about 8 months old. any idea on what he could be?

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## willtilian

edulis

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## onedge30

edulis

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## nerodia

hello

i'm  new to this forum and am trying to load the id page up for pyxies that is listed in this page but I can't get it to work
http://xenopus.freeshell.org/abig.doc

does anyone have a pdf they can send me?

stuart

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## BG

i CAN SEEM TO GET IT EITHER SO DO I HAVE A EDIBLE FROG OR A NEW SPECIES :Confused:

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## Joe M

I would like to see the finished product as well, but this is an awesome thread already. The pictures and distinctive traits have helped me out a ton.

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## onedge30

BG, do you have some recent picture of the African Bullfrog? Looking at the baby pictures, it does look like P. adspersus.

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## BG

im going to get the canon sd 1400 so i can put it on this post ,this is a great subject and when we solve it it will be the best for all the pixie people out there :Smile:

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John

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## pyxieBob

the link is broken............. 


> I have prepared an African Bullfrog Identification Guide. This will hopefully explain the differences between _Pyxicephalus adspursus_ and _P. edulis_. Also covers some species in the genus Tomopterna, popularly known as sand frogs or "pyxies". Please click on the link below to access the document. I will be looking forward to your comments and suggestions. Thanks! 
> 
> http://xenopus.freeshell.org/abig.doc

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## pyxieBob

Adspersus infact have a white dot on the ear drum. As do Dwarfs. Neither of them have that spot as adults,  
OK, time to eliminate the confusion.

*Pyxicephalus adspersus*

Upper jaw withour irregular vertical pale barsNo white spot on tympanum (ear drum)No pale interorbital barDistance from eye to tympanum is about twice the diameter of the eye_Pyxicephalus edulis_

Upper jaw with irregular pale barsWhite spot on tympanumDistance from eye to tympanum is about the same as the diameter of the eyeThere is a third species, *Pyxicephalus* *obbianus* (Calabresi's Bullfrog) that I have not seen in the pet tade and is endemic to Somalia. At one time, the genus *Pyxicephalus* had about 12 species, most of the smaller species moving into the genus *Tomopterna* (or sand frogs, native to Africa and India).

I hope this helps  :Frog Smile: [/QUOTE]

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## pixel

hi all, 

from today I have this beautiful frog.I bought it under the name Pyxicephalus adsperus.
I am afraid if its  edulis.
Could you advise ?
Thanks .

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## onedge30

Pixel, your frog is an P. edulis. Why? Yellow throat, pale beige stripe down back, eye to tympanum size, and head shape. 

Cheers,

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## pixel

are you sure ???

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## Devonte's Phat Frogs

Yea that edulis

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## pyxieBob

200% Sure that is a Dwarf, as per reasons or factors that Onedge30 described. Color of dorsal stripe, head and mouth shape, color. All of it def. Dwarf. Also see how his spots seem to have faded away in the 3rd picture, BUT his dorsal strip is still very apparent. Cool frogger tho. and I hope these posts help you.


> are you sure ???

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## BG

I would like to add some pics to this thread of my pixies ,I named one Mr ?because i dont kmow what it is I know its a Edulis but from where i dont know  please help !

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