# General Topics > Vivarium, Terrarium & Enclosure Discussion >  My "build"

## awelcome

And I say "build" because there isn't much building involved, and I will be keeping it rather simple for my first go.  I am using a 12x12x18 Zoomed tank, and I will be housing 1 cobalt tinc in this viv.

I have another post that I have already gotten some very helpful information on, but I figured I would start one to help guide me through this over the next couple days as I figure out what to do, and get it started.  Let's start with a list of the things I have purchased and planned to use....


Josh's Frogs complete kit for the drainage layer, barrier, substrate, moss, and leaf litterbranch from Josh's Frogs (manzanita)Exo Terra rock foam background (this is questionable, after getting advice against it, but I want to see what I think before I decide for sure)Exo Terra Small Jungle Vine (plan is to wrap it back and forth a little for climbing on since I am using such a small space I am trying to give a bit of vertical space)Flukers Fake Purple Coleus vines.... I know most don't mix fake with real, but I am going to try I think, and my intent is for this to decorate the top more.A second fake bush I have in her current enclosure if I need to beef it out a little for shade/hiding especially if I leave out the second bromeliadglass thermo (and I still have the exo terra dual analog thermo/hygro I might use until I either figure out a better hygro or feel more secure in just knowing it's humid enoughsmall water dishturtle log type thing, I currently have propped up she hangs out behind/under at nightrock(s) (boiled lol)Hood with UVB (13 watt) light (already on top)Josh's Frogs plant kit (geared for dart frog 12x12x18 enclosure, but as mentioned I am a bit unsure of one of the plants... there are 6)
  2 bromeliad, 1 purple one with soft edges and a green one with spines
  1 fern
  1 creeping type plant
  1 called syngonium 'confetti' they suggest for background
  1 alternanthera 'burgundy thread'

and I think that's it.... I may not use all, it will depend on how it goes.  I have a simple idea in mind, but am not great at visualizing.


First question.... bromeliads (or any epiphytes really).  I have at least one, maybe two if I decide to go ahead and put that spiny one in (still very uneasy about this).  If I DON'T end up using the exo terra background and opt for something like a cling as suggested on the outside, how do I plant it in there?  I currently have it sitting in a cup of coco fiber until Saturday when I hope to start... is that already harming it since it's an air plant (something I learned after I did it lol).  Can it even be planted in the substrate in the viv?  I looked up ways, and everything mentions putting it on background, in logs, etc.  

Thanks for all the help, I seriously appreciate your patience with what you probably hear over and over.  I am a perfectionist, so having no control or idea what I am doing is causing me uber amounts of stress, and I am just afraid about really messing something up..... but a part of me knows it will probably be fine even if I don't do something perfect.  It's just hard to relax about it.

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## awelcome

Ok... so regarding the exo terra background.... I REALLY want to try it.  I know many of you advise against it, but I just can't help myself lol.  I bought an 18x18 sheet, and glad I did!  Measured, it's 17x17.  So the 12x18 would have likely left gaps only adding to the FF issue.    Further, it has those gaps for the cords to hide behind, which I imagine is another source of the issue.... so I cut those off flush and made the back as flat as I possibly could.... talk about a back ache!  There are also notches out of one end for the cords to come out the bottom... I am actually thinking about turning it on it's side and using that side to do my trim to fit the tank.  I am going to cut slightly large and try to really wedge it in there, and maybe block off the top with some moss or something to even further discourage the FF's..... I am sure some will find their way back there.  It's a given, but I hope to minimize it at least.  Luckily for me my frog already knows when feeding time is and comes out of hiding, waits for me to dump them in and goes to town so not many spread very far anyway.

Like I said, I appreciate the advice you all give, and I know you said not to use it, but I might try once I see how it fits in there.  Please don't take that to mean I don't value you opinions/help and please keep helping me rofl.

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## Paul

The Broms you will wan to pin to the back ground or tie to the vine. Wrap the bad in some sphagnum moss (or any moss really). Most broms will rot if planted in soil, but doing it for a short period of time shouldn't do any permanent damage. The broom with the "spiny edges" will be fine. Frogs in the wild deal with them all the time, it is sort of engrained in them on a genetic level. I wouldn't worry about that at all.

I just really dislike the Exo backgrounds, but You sound like you are going to make it as insect proof as possible. No harm in giving it a try

Between the 2 brooms and the rest of the plants I don't think you need to worry with any of the fake plants you have. Over time the live plants will grow in and consume the tank. Most Vivariums are fairly open to start with until all the plants grown in. Then carefully pruning helps shape the tank and provide the frog with a very intricate environment. 

Using both the digital and glass thermometer isn't a bad idea at all. To bad there isn't a glass hydrometer lol. I had 2 digital Hydro + Therms in a couple my tanks for a little while because I didn't trust them. Thanks to time to get use to knowing when a tank needs to be misted and Lynn for pointing out I was totally missing glass therms as a option I am slowly fazing my $20 a pop exo terr Hydro+Therms out lol.

One step most people miss when adding in the soil for the first time is to soak it really good before adding it. It will help reduce any dust and start you off with a good base for humidity. 

Good luck!

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## awelcome

Thanks.  I think once the real plants start to grow in I may just pull out the couple fake ones if I decide to put them in.  I agree... a glass hygro would be GREAT!  So far my glass thermo matches up with the analog one but for some reason that only makes me question it's accuracy too lol. My hygro is set up on a rock to lift it off the moss where I did have it (because I didn't want to attach it too soon before I knew where I wanted it) because I realized it was throwing off my readings a bit from when I lifted it off that.  I think it's closer, but I still question the 90% humidity claim.... some days I don't even have to mist (though I usually end up doing it anyway because I am distrustful).  I don't know, it just doesn't feel humid in there when I put my hand in.  The temp thing I set up seems way more humid (I actually need to monitor that again tomorrow to make sure I have it right) and gets condensation and when I put my hand in feels humid.  I have it sealed off as well as I can though.... and she seems to be ok, so hopefully even if it's not truly 90% it's adequate.

oh and I planned to dump the ABG in a container and mix it up while getting it wet before putting it in.

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## awelcome

what's the best way to pin the broms to the background?  Or to a vine?

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## awelcome

thought of another question... how big will the broms get?  Or how do I keep them from getting TOO big (like how to prune them.... I am admittedly a gardening noob... and have a hard time on my landscaping as it is lol).  I want to make sure I don't put them up like too high or something if they get super big.

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## Paul

Attaching Broms - You can use zip ties, Floral wire, fishing line - Really anything that is no toxic and non corrosive. I use floral wire, it is super cheap and can be ground in craft stores of craft areas of bigger chain stores. Tie it so it is secure, but not digging into the broom base. By tie it I mean wrap it several times with the floral wire..... Then cover the wire and base in moss. The moss will help hold moisture against the roots. After 2 - 3 months the Brom will have attached itself to whatever it is tied to will anchor roots and the wire can be removed. Once the Broms take hold they are not going anywhere lol.

I am not 100% certain you can trim broms. They carry in size and are confusing at best. Sometimes I see them listed by the diameter of their leaf spread and others by how tall the get when they bloom. Josh probably sent you some smaller ones since you bought the plant kit for the smaller tank. Broms are very slow growers so you won't need to worry about them quickly getting to big. However if you take good care of them they will start to grow pups and after a bit of growth they can be separated from the parent plant and put into another tank  :Smile: 

If you are attaching it to the foam background I cut the floral wire and bend it into a "U" and then pin the broom against the wall with it. I will do 3 or 4 different "u"s to make sure it is good and secure. Once you have it pinned or wrapped put a little pressure on it to see how much movement it has. You don't want it falling over if your frog climbs on it, but remember that frogs typically weigh next to nothing so don't secure it to resist you pulling on it to much.



The condensation isn't really a gauge for how humid the tank is as much as it is the temperature difference between the inside of the enclosure vs the outside. 90% humidity won't feel wet when you put your hand in it, but if you put your head in it the air would be very heavy and muggy. I mist my tanks in the morning and at night regardless what the humidity says it is. With the top of the tank sealed and the humidity up around 80% - 90% steady you basically mist the tank to water the plants.

 Bill is the plant Guru. If he doesn't pop in on his own accord I will let him know he is sorely needed in this thread  :Smile:

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## bill

What? You seem like you got things covered pretty well  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Paul

Pa lease lol. When it comes to plants I just repeat what I remember reading from you  :Smile:

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## bill

That's all you need  :Smile:  lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## bill

You can trim broms. It's similar to trimming ferns. Just trim off the outer leaves (or fronds on ferns). I'm not a big fan of broms, so I don't normally offer advice on them. But do be aware that most neos will grow to about 12" in diameter. And they will throw pups (which you can always sell off). My thought on the spiny ones is that they would be ok. I think I even said it another thread that we need to trust 400 million years of evolution. But it comes down to what you feel comfortable with. If you don't feel comfortable putting the brom in there, don't. Remember, you can always take it out later on down the road.  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## bill

Oh, one thing I want to mention about broms. I do not wrap their roots in sphagnum. I leave them free. They are for attaching themselves to objects, they don't supply the plant with nutrients. Wrapping them just makes it take longer for the brom to attach itself to whatever you mount it to. The plant will get all it's nutrients from the water reservoir in the center of the brom.  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

Thanks so much, both of you, for the great advice.  It's starting to become clearer to me what I need to do, which lowers the stress lol.  When I was reading up on broms (I don't know if it was exact type but I think I thought it looked close to what I had and I think I saw it on JF) it said something about not allowing standing water on the leaves... why is that?  And something about flushing it out every few days or something?

If I use wire to attach to background, how does it stay?  Do I need to somehow twist tie it in back?  One method I read was to use two toothpicks at an X and to use the moss around it which I assumed was partially for the toothpicks to have something to hold in place.  They seem heavy enough to just pull a wire right out if it wasn't attached somehow in back.

Also, I thought of anothe bug proofing measure for the background, but need some help figuring how to do it.  I thought about taking some of the extra barrier I will have and putting that at the top, but not sure how best to attach it.

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## bill

No standing water on a brom leaf, what??? You gotta link me to that article. 

I've also heard that you shouldn't allow begonia or violet leaves have standing water on them, but my violets are constantly wet and never had an issue. Begonias can go either way though. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Paul

Flushing the brom is as simple as spraying water down into the cnet and letting it fill up and overflow for a few seconds. It just helps replace the stale water that has been sitting down inside it. 

Ohh nice bill I though they got SOME nutrients from the root. Thanks! I guess I should clarify. When I say "Wrap the roots" I mean I just lay sphagnum over them to fide the wires. I don't physically wrap them in the sphagnum. I do it mainly to hide the flora wire and make the tank look prettier while the broom attaches itself to the surround hardscape. 

Never heard of not having standing water on the bromeliad leaves.... My broms stay wet nearly 24/7 and are doing fine.

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## awelcome

I read SO many articles yesterday, but let me see if I can find it.  

Still wondering how to attach with the wire properly?  Do you think floral wire could also  hold the barrier to the foam?  It wouldn't have to be really sturdy, maybe I could pierce into it like a staple type thing?

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## awelcome

ok, here is where I read it.... maybe it's just this specific variety.  I don't even know if this is the one I have, it just looked the closest that I could tell.

Neoregelia maculata | Josh's Frogs

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## bill

Ya know what? I think they have that sentence on the description of every plant they sell on the site lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## bill

> I read SO many articles yesterday, but let me see if I can find it.  
> 
> Still wondering how to attach with the wire properly?  Do you think floral wire could also  hold the barrier to the foam?  It wouldn't have to be really sturdy, maybe I could pierce into it like a staple type thing?


We really need to see a pic of the background you bought. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## bill

> Ohh nice bill I though they got SOME nutrients from the root. Thanks! I guess I should clarify. When I say "Wrap the roots" I mean I just lay sphagnum over them to fide the wires. I don't physically wrap them in the sphagnum. I do it mainly to hide the flora wire and make the tank look prettier while the broom attaches itself to the surround hardscape.


Nope. They get their nutrients via everything else but the roots. Now an orchid, different story  :Wink: 

I know you wrap them loosely and to cover the mount, but I have seen broms SILLY with sphagnum on the roots and the people can't fathom why the broms haven't attached in a year lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## bill

Oh, nutrients and broms. Think Spanish moss. No roots, but a brom nonetheless  :Wink: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

sure, here it is.  It's not the intended direction, but it's the direction I am going with.  I will be trimming it from the right side with the notches about 5 inches.  And remember the back used to have grooves for cords, but it is now flat.

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## Paul

very creative! I don't think you will have any issues with insects congregating behind it. Crickets and fruit flies find the craziest places to hid from the frogs. I keep a wad of Sphagnum near the top of the tank. After a few hours all the uneaten fruit flies have climbed up to it. I then shake it into a bowl and re-dust the flies and drop them back in the bottom of the tank. The circle of life? lol The not so smart flies jump into the water section and the army of springtails that hang out in the water pounce on them

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## awelcome

I can't wait to get the leaf litter in there... I feel like the flies hide so quickly in the moss and she sometimes struggles to see them right in front of her.  And with that they rub the powder off so quickly.  Some days she eats them so fast it doesn't matter, but like today she was in different spot of tank waiting for her food so I gave it to her there and she struggled more to find them once they dispersed.... and since I only counted her eating maybe 13-15 I gave her a few more in her usual spot she went to looking for more.  Btw... is it ok I have seen her eating the larvae too?  So springtails will eat the flies?  Good to know... maybe that will help clean up lol.  Oh and I have heard some people put a piece of food in there occasionally to gather the flies... is that harmful?

though I guess it would be easy to hide on undersides of leaves too... darn it.  I contemplated trying dish feeding even though I know it's a lost cause with FF's able to climb out, but maybe it will give her a head start.

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## Paul

Nah bowl feeding darts won't work. As you stated the FF will run for their lives and climb out. Keep feeding her in the same spot. She will catch on and even if she is across the tank she will come a running when she sees them bouncing off the ground. 

Springtails will eat anything that dies in the tank. FF, crickets, poop, decaying leaves, decaying plants. Anything  :Smile: 

One thing i do (i doubt it helps much) is a couple hours after feeding I will mist the tank and any flies hiding with come out and run from the water. This might get the attention of your froggy. She doesn't have anything better todo than hunt for food. She will enjoy flushing out surprise flies as the day goes on. Just don't want so many in the tank they are everywhere. that could/will stress her out  :Smile:

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## awelcome

good to know.. about them stressing her out with so many.  I am glad when I change it tomorrow I can start clean now that she's got the hang of things and get rid of some of the extras.  She spends most of the day out hunting, so I am sure she'll find some of them at least.  She's literally out from about 9-9:30 when I feed her to around 4ish or so just hunting, and then later in the evening she might hide or might still hunt for a bit before retiring behind her log for the night.  It will be interesting to see how that might change with the new setup.

Oh, and I noticed that misting the tank makes the flies squirm too lol.  I do it once in a while as well if she seems particularly stumped at finding them once the powder has worn off anyway.

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## awelcome

I am still a bit confused at how to attach a brom, with a big base like these especially, to the background with wire?  I just can't envision it. and what height is high enough for them?  Can they be fairly low, just not actually touching the substrate?

Thanks again.

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## Paul

They can be as low as you like.  With the foam background you could attach it to the background outside the tank then stick the wire through the foam and bend the end flat on the backside to hold it in better.  I'll see if I have a picture to post to show you


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## awelcome

I was thinking that might be an option... I am just unsure yet how high my ground will end up being.  I was considering having it come up higher in the back.

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## bill

If you want, you can just lay the brom on the soil. As long as the soil drains well, the brom will be fine. Don't plant it, just set it on the soil. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

so like, I could put it kind of in a corner and prop it there with something and let it just take root there?

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## bill

You could do that if you so choose. There are actually terrestrial broms that can be planted. Puya and aechmaea genuses come to mind. But a true epiphyte, like the neoregalia genus can actually just be placed on the ground and thrive. And yes, neoregalia is what you have  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

Ok here's another thought/question...... I have some very small terra cotta pots, if I wanted to put a brom in one of those (has hole in bottom) and hide it in a corner or something would that suffice/thrive?  Would I need to put anything with it in the pot like moss?  This wouldn't be my first choice just because I want it naturalistic in there, but if I run out of ideas and it's not working out I might go with it as long as it is safe and will work.  Would I/Could I boil the pots then?

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## Paul

Unless your brim is terrestrial I wouldn't pot it. They rot rather quickly. I'll try to get you some pics of floral wire like I mentioned earlier. I'm at work right now


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## awelcome

wouldn't an open pot with nothing else in it allow for air flow?  Just trying to understand these things lol.  Is that different than when people drill a hole in something like a log and stick it in?

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## Paul

You just don't want it to sit in water. If it is well drained it might be ok


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## awelcome

I think that may be out anyway.... after boiling them they feel kind of greasy or something.  I picked up another piece of mopani wood tonight and am currently trying to drill through it where there was already a hole started, but it's proving to be quite difficult as there is a knot there.  If I CAN get through, do I want to make it big enough for the stolon or whatever it's called or should the base be sitting into it?  And how is best to attach that one?  If I go all the way through is it ok for the stolon to be touching the substrate?

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## Paul

Should be fine with it touching the substrate. You can really attach them anyway you want. I am home, but the lights are off in the frog room. I will take some pics of broms I have mounted to the wall and post them. I also have a couple tied to sticks I can post as well.

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## awelcome

I broke through!  Here are pics of how it will sit... please let me know if I should do anything for it.  The part it's on will likely be slightly elevated either from the substrate or leaning on substrate piled up there.  Does the base look like it sits in the cavity well enough?  How do the pups grow if you have it in something like this?  And excuse the crappy lighting... didn't feel like bothering to move it from the kitchen where the light stinks.  And the wood is wet because I was soaking it.

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## Paul

That looks great! The pups will find a way. I have one pup now that grew straight out from the parent plant and around a stick before it started heading towards the light. Nature always finds a way  :Smile: 

Use your finger on the tips of the leafs and put some pressure towards the ground. If it has a lot of movement you may want to wrap some floral wire around the bas and the wood to hold it in place for a few months while the anchor roots grow and secure the plant.

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## awelcome

I can't visualize how I would wrap it to the log?  I did pick up floral wire though.  I am still considering attaching the spikier green one to the background.  But I am kind of considering going with the skewer method just so I don't have to try to twist wire behind it after it's in, or guess before putting it in.  If I do the skewers should I at least put a little moss to have something to help pin it... I know too much Bill said was a bad idea (well he said any) but maybe just a tiny bit to help pin and hide the piece of skewer?

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## Paul

Start with the wire pointing at the ground on one side of the wood and wrap it up over the top and down around the wood. Then cross it to the other side. You may even need to do a wrap around the base of the plant to hold it more securely. The warp around the plant doesn't need to be so tight  it is leaving marks on the plant, but tight enough the plant doesn't move to much. Keep wrapping it around (forming an X on the top of the wood (the wraps around the wood can be as tight as you can get them. Make sure the wire isn't pointing out for the frog to hurt itself on it. I then lay sphagnum or any other kind of moss over the wire to hide it from view. After a few months the wire can be removed and the plant will hold itself in place. 

There isn't any real technique to the wire. You are just holding the pant where you want it until it can hold itself.

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## awelcome

ok, so basically whatever works lol.  Might be tricky to get it flush enough to the log not to leave gaps though, but I'll play around.  When you go to remove it wouldn't it be kind of stuck in the roots?  Is it a hassle to get out, and does it have to come out?

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## Paul

No it doesn't have to come out and it can be a hassle. More so because you have to disturb the tank to do it than anything. When I remove mine I use a pair of side cutters and cut off sections of it so I don't have to move the object it is wrapped around to much to remove it all. I mostly remove it to get the potentially sharp wire out of the tank and get it to a more natural environment, but you can absolutely leave it in. 


But yes. Whatever works. If you have gaps then you can press them down to the wood. Gaps are fine, your frog will not try to wedge itself between the wire and the wood.

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## awelcome

ok few bumps in the road... once you start putting stuff in and get a 2 inch drainage layer it really fills up fast!  I definitely don't have room for the turtle log she normally hides under, so I propped up a couple of leaves to cover the sides so she may feel secure there... and hopefully once plants grow more there will be even better hiding.  But that leads me to my first question... once the plants start filling in is she going to be able to move around in there?!  I tried to leave at least one path to the back corner but I don't know much about that creeping vine that I planted or that burgundy thread on and how much they will fill in that space.  Another issue was just not being able to put in a few things I had picked out like the vine because with wanting to have a slightly higher substrate to the back I just don't have the space I thought I might.  I HOPE I planted the plants well.... it's not like I have a lot of options in there lol.  Probably one of the biggest issues though is the leaf litter.... it's just SO huge and with everything else in there I don't even know if I need to put much.  I certainly don't think I can utilize it as it's meant to be piled together a bit, but I more used it to cover the moss in places to not only add visual difference/appeal but also so the frog has some smoother spots to hunt.  I do have some stuff I might still try to attach to the glass on top for decoration, but not sure.  I kind of hate the water dish taking up so much space and might look for even smaller one, or phase it out eventually, which will give more space down there for whatever, but for now it stays.  My only other concern I think at the moment is where to feed her... she's used to an open spot for feeding.... would you do the log? or just as bare a place as I can find on the leaf/moss?  I am liking how it's looking though.... but before I completely finalize things I wanted your thoughts of course.  I don't know if I got a side pic, but the base layers really do fill up a lot of the tank.... I didn't even use all the drainage though, and it's no more than 2 inches for sure, and the substrate is only high on the back corner.  

So here are the pics I quickly snapped... what do you think?  Second and third pics show the leaves I propped up for privacy, and the last pic I hope shows you the little path I have back... does that look adequate for space to get back there for sure, even when the plants grow?

also, the base layers and water dish partially cover some of those front air holes... do you think with the gaps around the door piece and what's left, and opening it a couple times a day it will get enough air?

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## awelcome

I have put the hygro back in there, and am trying to bring the humidity back up to see how it's going to work... but it's staying around 70 so far.  How long does it normally take to bring it up from the start?  I don't know the first time I did it because I didn't have the hygro until the next day.  I wet the ABG before putting it in, moss soaked and I squeezed some out, and I have misted, but still it's not going up.  Temp is at 73ish though so that's fine.  Should I have put any water in the drainage layer?  I also put the water dish in and partially filled it back up (so as not to spill when I move it).  Thoughts?  I hate leaving the frog in that bowl set-up for too long without having the hygro/thermo in there to monitor too so hope to finish this soon.

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## Paul

it's looking good  :Smile: 

I will try to answer all your questions and put you at ease  :Smile:  It is amazing how fast you run out of space (even in bigger tanks) once all the pieces start to come together. 

1. Leaf litter - Feel free to break up the leaves into smaller pieces. If you put about a 1/2 inch down your cobalt will also hide under it. No matter the planning they will find the spot they fell most secure and use that. 

2. Water bowl - Darts do not require a water bowl. Having a small one isn't a bad thing, but they will get their water from the very humid air and water that is on the leaves, glass, and moss.

3. Feeding - The piece of wood would be a perfect feeding spot  :Smile:  Esp since it is front and center and you can enjoy watching her cause fly genocide in the tank  :Smile: 

4. Drainage layer - Yes you want to add some water to it. If your leca is 2" deep I would put 1 to 1.5 inches of water in it. Just keep an eye on the water and if it gets close to the soil you will need to syphon some out. Just pour the water through the substrate slowly and watch it fill up  :Smile: 

5. Plants - You can train the vining plants to grow where you want them by moving and pinning in place as it goes. Trim the stuff back you don't want  :Smile: 

6. Humidity - Adding water to the drainage layer will help and a few days of misting will help. 


again it is looking really good. You are now officially cure from your PetStore bad information exposure  :Smile:  Welcome to the light side. I am starting a timer now to see how long it take you to decide you are going to do a bigger tank, then I will know you are truly addicted  :Smile: 

Paul

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## awelcome

before I get too far into this.... is it going to take a lot of water?  I already dug a tiny hole into the substrate by the front door so I could watch is closely and not over-do it and I have put at least a cup of water and not even seen ANY make it under the barrier yet, it just soaks in really quickly. I did wet soil, but not like submerged or anything.  I just want to make sure I am not going to bog out my substrate or something.... and that I should keep pouring?

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## awelcome

also.. I did cut my barrier slightly larger than the tank but not as large as I thought, so it really doesn't come up the sides much at all.... and as a result some substrate does get below on the edges... is that ok?

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## Paul

The math behind it all is Tank Length X Tank Height X desired water level divided by 231

So for you it is 12x12x1 / 231 = .62 Gallons. 

If you dug a hole pour the water in that way. Pouring it through the substrate just helps saturate the substrate more.

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## awelcome

I am kind of an impatient person I have been told... I dumped about 1/2 gallon in there on the sides of the glass and I think it's pooling at the bottom now (it's actually much harder to tell then I thought it would be).  I am going to let it keep filtering down for now, close the door and see if it changes  humidity soon now.  I just don't want to go too far and have to run out and buy a siphon so soon.

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## Paul

Slower is better  :Smile:  Another benefit to having water in the drainage layer is when you do add the microfauna they will go down but the water in the drainage

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## awelcome

so I assume it's ok that some of the substrate is leaking through on the very sides?  It seems to be helping already though, and it's already closer to 80%

And I am so glad you didn't tell me to start over when you saw it.... I was so afraid I messed up somewhere and would have to redo hours of work lol.

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## awelcome

another concern.... since the ground layer ended up SO close to the front vents, when I do get springtails in there, are they going to come out through those holes and infest my house?!  

Wanted to mention also... and I will actually try to get a picture of it, the background worked out fairly well except that I had a harder time trimming it exactly right, and ended up with a couple spots on the sides the flies might get through.... but the top is secure!  I have the barrier sort of stapled in with the wire all the way across and then it's lifted out of the tank on the lid so they can't get behind it... or at least not unless they are very determined and find the tiny corner sections that aren't as tight.!

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## Paul

The substrate leaking into the drainage layer could be stopped if you had the barrier material cut longer so it created a bowl for the soil to sit in, but some leaking is not a reason to tear everything apart. 

You did a very good job maximizing the space in your tank. I bet your Cobalt will love it!

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## awelcome

Thanks!  Yeah, I did try to cut it big, but I guess I didn't go big enough.  It also seemed to slip over a bit at some point because the one side does go up a little more and the other side is almost flush.  Oh well.... as long as it's not going to be a problem I'm ok with it then.  

I really hope she likes it... I might move her soon actually.  I just tested the temp/humidity of the bowl she's in and it's hotter in there, and not too much more humid at this point.... so I would rather she not have the optimal humidity just yet than her be too hot.  I will wait a little though... just turned on the A/C.   I think my tendency to worry and over-prepare came in handy here today.

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## bill

It's looking good! And you have been getting excellent advice from Paul! Except, I think he forgot to mention to you about how to drain the bottom of the tank when it gets too full. 

Ummm, Paul, if you want to keep minion status, you better hop on it buddy!! Lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

he said to siphon it... I assumed I could just dig back a corner and siphon there?

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## awelcome

maybe this is a silly question.... she's been in there now for a little bit, and she immediately climbed up on a leaf, up onto/over the spiny brom and onto the background.  She was likely a little shaken from the transfer.  Anyway... she's been sitting there now the whole time, and I wondered if you thought she could for sure get down?  I even tried to get a bit of flies up there for her, but she hasn't moved.  Should I give it time?  If she doesn't move after a long while what should I do?  Anything?

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## Paul

I did say Siphon it  :Smile:  In a bigger tank you can permanently install the syphon access in the back ground so you don't have to dig out the soil to do it, or you can drill the tank at the max waterline and install a bulkhead so the water drains out as needed.

You frog is likely stressed out. Let him/her be for a bit and get use to the changes. By a bit I mean a day or more. Your cobalt will calm down and start to explore.

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## awelcome

I'll try... it's just not in my nature lol.  Humidity is still rising though so that's good.  I just wish she wasn't exposed to the light so closely (there is glass between the light and the tank too) while she hangs out up there.  Should I turn it off or will that mess with her day/night schedule too much?

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## Paul

She will move if she gets to warm. They are very good at doing what they need to. Best thing you can do right now is to take a breath and leave her to her own devices for a while. Maybe go check on her in a few hours

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## awelcome

will do, I draped a piece of fabric I've been using before I had the background over it a little too, which covers the sides some and gives her more security.  Hard not to look a lot though, when I can see her from my spot lol.

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## awelcome

I think she likes it!  We left to get dinner and when we got back she had come down (maybe better I didn't have to see if she fell lol).  Then when I checked after that she had found her way under the log which I honestly didn't think she'd fit under (hopefully she gets in easily and didn't have to scrape her back or something).  I wanted to give her a few more flies since she didn't get a chance to hunt all day like she likes, and she came right out for them and has been out exploring a bit since.  I guess I got super lucky with such an easy going frog that puts her love of food above any fears lol.  She looks so great in her new viv!  Way more at home.  

I gave her the flies on the leaf  next to the under part of the log, which worked well... I had put some on the log earlier but the little bit of excess powder that shook out with them made it look ugly, and now I can't wait to spray it down, but trying to avoid opening her tank for a bit lol.

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## awelcome

so I just watched her go back under... it's definitely a tight squeeze.  She has to go in low to the ground, maneuver to turn around and then she's crouched down in there..... I know she'd probably come out if she couldn't fit right, but I guess a part of me just wonders if that would be as true if she felt that was the only good hiding place.  Would you leave well enough alone or try to press the ground down a bit more under there the next time she was in another part of the tank to make it a deeper hollow?  .... yeah I know I worry about the smallest things rofl.  I have also been told this.

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## Paul

That is tough to answer from the other side of a computer screen. Either way would work. I have seen frogs kick and and move the substrate around to suit their needs... she could fix it on her own in time.

My only concern would be stressing her out again so soon. When frogs go under things to hide it makes them feel secure to have their backs pressed against something.



Hmmmm I would leave it alone for now... I have learned they can sort quite a bit out on their own.... As my friend Bill would say "They have 400,000,000 years of evolution working in their favor"  :Smile:

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## awelcome

true... but when I gave her a couple more flies.... she's hunting around for flies that aren't in there... I did press it down a tad.  Still tight, but she can actually go all the way through to the back side so must be alright.  She seems to really be loving it though... she's been all over, jumping in her water, going over her log, under it, behind the bushes.  Makes me happy.

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## Paul

You did a good job! Nice job jumping online and doing the research you needed to do and spending what more you needed to get her setup right. Now just think how much fun that was but bigger  :Smile:

----------



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## awelcome

maybe some day.... I actually don't know if I want a set of frogs anyway, because I don't want to deal with tadpoles just yet.  That's a whole other hassle I am not ready for.  I can see how making vivariums would be fun, but I can see how they can break the bank too lol.....

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## Paul

Yes they can, I have spent a lot of money on tanks, but through research and planning have been able to keep the cost per tank at a controllable level. I am actually looking into building my own custom Acrylic tanks in the future, but I am not ready for that just yet  :Smile:

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## awelcome

I am definitely thinking if/when I get to do a big tank I want some awesome big wood pieces... so I am thinking I will just start slowly collecting things as I go and maybe by the time I make one it will have cost less, or I will have forgotten lol.

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## awelcome

oh I do have another question... now that I am getting around to cleaning up..... I have a bit of ABG, and a LOT of moss left over.  I wrung out as much water as I could from the moss and have it loosely placed on a platter in the window to dry it out some.  Can I keep it for filling in as needed?  Same with the ABG...can't really wring it out since it's so oddly textured, but once it dries out can I store it for filling in if I find the need to?  It's funny that I looked at that little brick of moss and thought no way would that cover the space I needed!  And even though I didn't actually put the full amount the suggest because I don't have the space for it all I can see it would have easily filled my tank like three times!

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## Paul

Sphagnum moss? Yes you can let the Sphagnum dry and then reuse it later as well as the ABG. I store all my leftover soil and moss in plastic tubs for use later. ABG also makes a great substrate for Isopod culturing  :Smile: 

A little Sphagnum brick does indeed go a long long way lol.

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## awelcome

So speaking of springtails... I was getting ready to order the kit from Josh's Frogs, but the crazy shipping has kind of held me back.  Not only is it 24 bucks to have them (and the color enhancer 3oz) shipped to me on top of the 40 bucks for the merchandise but that doesn't guarantee live arrival!  To get that I would have to double the shipping price!!!!  I don't know where else I can get the stuff though.... any tips?!

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## Lija

Your tank looks beautiful!

 Ive been reading this thread thinking that the stories like that i love this forum for. From stupid store advises to happy endings like that!

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## Lija

> So speaking of springtails... I was getting ready to order the kit from Josh's Frogs, but the crazy shipping has kind of held me back.  Not only is it 24 bucks to have them (and the color enhancer 3oz) shipped to me on top of the 40 bucks for the merchandise but that doesn't guarantee live arrival!  To get that I would have to double the shipping price!!!!  I don't know where else I can get the stuff though.... any tips?!


 There gotta be somebody who does dart frogs in portland and they will for sure have springs.  Why would you need color enhancer?  Do you wanna look at classifed on this forum, may be you'll find smth.

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## awelcome

And while I am in here again.... what do you suggest as a cleaning routine for this tank?  Now, and/or once I get springtails.  I clean the water dish every day and wipe the glass down a bit, but what about the substrate and whatnot?

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## Lija

I believe no cleaning is needed, that is what springs are for  :Smile:

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## awelcome

that's good to hear, just hope I can find some that won't cost an arm and leg to get them to me lol

One more question though on the subject of cleaning.... especially since I don't have springs yet.

Since I got her a week ago I have only seen 1 poop, because she did it on a leaf.  On a side note, I was NOT expecting it to be so big lol.  The pet store person told me it would be tiny and she'd probably do it in her water..... We removed that with a tissue.  I assume she's pooping, or at least I hope she is since she's eating so well, but I never see it.  Should I be digging around for it?  How will I even find it among all that stuff in there?  Also... I hope it's not weird... I do have a pic of the first one if you could tell me whether or not it looks ok that would be great.

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## Paul

You can check out the prices from NeHerp. I have found their shipping prices to be much more reasonable that Joshs frogs for live insects and everything else (Josh i use for frogs  :Smile: 


Live bugs - New England Herpetoculture LLC - Live Bugs

Spring tail culture kit (the give you a **** load of food) - New England Herpetoculture LLC - Bug Breeding Kits

Supplements - New England Herpetoculture LLC - Consumables (All)

Why are you getting color enhancer? You really only need to dust with Calcium w/D3 and a Multivitamin (I haves used Repcal Multivitamin) but just switched to Repashy because I read their delivery method for vitamins is better.

You may want to get 2 Spring Cultures. One to dump into the tank and the other to start a breeding culture. Your Cobalt will eat all the springs it can find and they are essential to your tank being virtually maint free. 


Cleaning - All you really will need to do after springs are added is wine the glass down every other week and restock the spring population regularly.

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## awelcome

I was just thinking of having it for the bit of yellow on her.... I see a lot of people suggest/mention they use it when I was reading through posts.  I might hold off on it though.... can't give DH a heart attack lol.  I will check those out.  Thanks.

Ironically if I look up Springtails in my zipcode all I get are exterminators and talk of infestation rofl.

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## Paul

LoL

Color enhancers are not bad at all, I am not trying to talk you out of it. I was just thinking (because cost has been an issue) that it isn't "Needed" right now. Lump it in with your next order. A lot of the supplements are on Amazon as well, but I buy from the hobby sites to support them and keep them around for us all  :Smile:

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## awelcome

Holy cow, WAY better price!  I can get the whole kit SHIPPED for less than the kit at Josh's lol.  Thanks for the tip.  What other things are better from there vs. Josh's.  I will have to do some browsing.

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## awelcome

of course I haven't gotten to the part where they say whether they will be guaranteed live or not....  NE to OR is a bit of a jaunt lol.

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## awelcome

Ok, so going through checkout... looks like it's standard shipping (4-5 days).  Is that going to be ok for live bugs?  It doesn't say one way or the other if they guarantee live arrival.

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## Paul

Springs are resilient little buggers. They ship their springs in ABG mix so they don't get crushed as much in shipping. With it being ABG mix it will mix into your tank soil nicely  :Smile: 

I love their Wood selection! I buy all my wood from them, soil, leaf litter, fruit fly culture media, fruit fly culturing supplies... really I buy just about everything from them but the tanks, frogs, and some plants.

Amazon has some good prices on Exo Terras and with prime shipping. I had one issue where a door broke on me and the company that sales them called the manufacturer and had a new door shipped to me free of charge in a matter of days. 

The great thing about NeHerp is after you place your order for wood you can email them and send them a picture of your tank and describe how you want to use the wood in your order. They will hand pick pieces for you as best they can to fit your plants  :Smile:  Look at my 40B build. I sent them the picture of the tank and told them how tall it needed to be and I got the perfect piece of ghost wood. Love those NeHerp Peps  :Smile:

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## Paul

> Ok, so going through checkout... looks like it's standard shipping (4-5 days).  Is that going to be ok for live bugs?  It doesn't say one way or the other if they guarantee live arrival.


I ordered some Isopods from them in Feb and when they arrived most of them were dead. I emailed Jessica and told her. She put another culture in the mail to me without a hassle.

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## awelcome

I did read on their site about their policies and guarantees.... looks like I am in the 5 day zone, and they say if the weather is below 50 or above 85 in either location to select express shipping but I can't find an option for that anywhere.  It also says not guaranteed unless live within one transit day.  I think I may contact them first and see what they suggest to do before I make the order.  How long does a culture of them last?  I am thinking if I ever need to order more it would be best to plan them around the cooler but not cold months lol.

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## Paul

It depends on the tank and frogs. 1 culture could last you forever if you set it up to breed and then added from that to your tank. 

I bought 1 Spring culture and dumped it into my Red tank. In about 30 Days the soil was crawling with them... 1000s of them. I setup a breeding box and shock several hundred into it which has now supplied all 5 of my tanks with springs and been spread into 2 other breeding boxes  :Smile: 

You can choose the shipping method at checkout through paypal. I usually get my stuff from them in 3 days and have not had any issues. They will put ice packs in there if needed. With Springs I wouldn't be overly concerned about it. Plants and such I would pay the extra to make sure they arrive alive  :Smile:

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## awelcome

yeah, with such a small tank I definitely wasn't considering dumping the whole culture in... Was going to put some, and then culture the rest with the kit.  I was doing credit check out so maybe that's why.  I still think I will email first and see what they say, but thanks again for the tip to try them.

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## bill

Alicia, you did an excellent job on the tank! This is what the forum is all about, like Lija said (and it pains me to a great extent to agree with her  :Wink:  ) taking poor info from the pet store and creating a wonderful home for that pretty frog. Kudos to you!!!! Nice job guys!!


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

For now I had been setting the thermo/hygro on the log where it's a little more dry (though I did move it to spray in there, and then put it back on the wet log).  I still worry this isn't giving me accurate readings for Humidity (I know the temp is pretty good since I also have the glass thermo in there and they read the same).  I want to mount it perhaps, but I just don't know where to mount it so it's not in the way, not ugly and ruining the look of the tank, but also so it's relevant (like I don't know if the humidity at the very top of the tank is the same as the areas she will actually be hanging out).  I would like to feel secure enough that I don't need it, but I don't think I am there since over night it did drop down to 80% according to the hygro.  If I do attach it to the tank (it's the sticky kind with velcro) is it going to come off if I choose to later?  Or will it leave a horrible sticky mess on the glass?  Is there a better option out there?  Should I just look into a digital one, and if so, which one?

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## bill

Well, first and foremost, do NOT trust the readings of those analog hygrometers, they are notoriously made poorly and ridiculously inaccurate. Invest in a decent digital one. There are some very good analog hygrometers out there used for cigar humidors, however, a good, precision one can cost well over $100, but a decent digital is about $30. Seems like a no brainer  :Smile: 

Don't worry about moving stuff around for the frog. She will make the home hers. Think about what her behavior in the wild, she will forage for food when she is hungry. There are no flat leaves where somebody deposits fruit flies in the rainforest  :Wink:  the more you leave her be, the more natural behavior you will be able to observe.  :Smile:  just sit back and be amazed at what 400 million years of evolution looks like  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

I have looked through reviews for various digital hygros and thermo/hygro combos and all seem to have some pretty bad reviews.  Would you mind linking me to one or two good ones to consider?  I also wondered how they would be set up.... does the read-out portion sit outside the tank?  If so, how do you get it in without leaving an opening somehow?  Thanks again.

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## Paul

I don't know that there is such a think as a good accurate digital hydrometer. I have yet to find one. The ones i settled on and use in some of my tanks still is the exo terra digital thermometer and Hydrometer . There are little holes along the back of the lid and tank where the cord can be routed. You can hang the probe in the tank and the screen outside the tank. 

Any "affordable" digital hydrometer has at a minimum of 10% + or - error rate. I also have to remove the probe every so often for a week or so to let it dry out and then put it back in. That is why I now don't rely on them.

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## bill

i just don't use them. i use glass thermometers and i can normally tell what my humidity levels are by my plants. but remember, i know all my plants so well, that i can tell if there is a problem long before it will affect my inhabitants. i don't recommend that for anyone lol

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## awelcome

Since I have a glass thermo, I was looking at the exo terra JUST hygro.  I might get it.... I just hate to spend another 17 bucks or whatever on something that is unreliable at best.... but as you said Bill I am by no means an expert with plants so I can't just tell by looking yet.  I hope that if I just try my best to keep it misted and properly set up it will be properly humid and I can more utilize the hygro to see fluctuations (whether at the correct % or not) so I can tell if something is changing.  I would use the one I have in the same way, but unless I want to mount that ugly thing to my beautiful vivarium it's not even reliable for that sitting on a wet log.

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## awelcome

on a side note... not sure there is a section on the forum to just complain about pet stores lol... I went back to Petco tonight to grab a second FF culture so I could alternate because she's eating so well she's already dwindling my supply and they can't mature fast enough lol.  While I was there I checked on the remaining dart frogs they have there, and I was sad to see that the temp in the enclosure read 84, and humidity barely 80%.  Let's hope their analog readers are just crappy..... the frogs looked ok, moving around a bit, but I don't know enough to say if they looked healthy.  I also noticed they were still feeding them crickets that looked too big.... SMH.

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## Paul

I just had to stop looking at the frogs at big chain pet stores and some mom and pop stores. It just makes me want to buy them all and save them, but that is unrealistic. I have a pretty decent rapport with the manager and have gently guided him towards better conditions. He has since stopped offering Darts at my local store because the tanks the chain have him use to house the amphibians for sale are not designed to hold the right humidity.


I would get the exo terra and get the peace of mind it offers. It may not be accurate, but it can help you detect sudden dips in the enclosure so you can mist when needed. Eventually you will learn the cycles your tank goes through and how often you need to mist to counter the dips, but all of that comes with time. 

I don't know plants like Bill does, but I have killed enough of them to tell when they need water or if I have given them to much. Also through using a Hydrometer I can now tell on all my Dart tanks when they need to be misted based on the wetness of certain parts of the tank.

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## awelcome

I am pretty nervous that I am going to kill these plants lol.. I just really don't have a good history with plants.  I worry more about OVER watering though, than under at this point because I am misting multiple times a day to keep the humidity up and try to get it higher in general.  I just don't know how directly I should spray the plants.... I know my moss around the edges feels pretty wet from all the water I have poured down the sides yesterday to fill the drainage layer some and from misting.  Can that be TOO wet, or will it drain down as needed for sure?  I think I am more nervous about killing the plants or swamping my tank than the care of my frog rofl.  I think I just need tropical weeds... I am good with weeds.  They have overtaken my yards!.... big horrible vines called bind weed.

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## Paul

The excess water will drain off. I am not sure you can keep Moss tooooo wet  :Smile:

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## awelcome

isopods... do I need those AND springtails?  I am still looking to get springtails, but I see people mention isopods as well.

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## Paul

No you don't "Need" Isopods. They do the same thing as Springs. In your size tank I am not sure they both would do good in their together.

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## Lynn

You really can never have too many of either of these. 
They will be perfectly happy together.

Having-said that- having  JUST springs is fine as well.

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## awelcome

thanks.  glad to hear I don't have to hunt those down now too lol.  Just out of curiosity... does anyone use bugs from their yard?  Like potato bugs, or rolly pollies as some call them?  Or is there a chance for contamination from using bugs from your soil?

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## Josh

No, unfortunately wild-caught bugs can carry parasites and other diseases that can be transferred to your frog, so the rule of thumb is either culture your own or get captive-raised ones.

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## Paul

Technically you can collect some wild insects and then breed them. After a couple generation have come and gone in your culture it should be safe to add to a tank  :Smile:

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## awelcome

thanks, I will keep that in mind for future.  We have SO many of those things in our yard.  We actually had a pet one for a while because my son's school helped them make habitats for them and homework was to catch one and keep it lol.

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## bill

Wait, am I reading this correctly? You had a pet pillbug?


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

lol yep... not my choice.  Boys thought it was great though.  Kept it in a tupperware, and he even decorated it's wall with a picture of a rolly polly lol.  Once they forgot about it I threw it out.

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## bill

Lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

Ok, so ordered the springtail kit, some more containers, medium, and excelsior for FF culturing, mite paper, and a digital hygrometer from NEHERP.... and still I think it was less than getting the springtail kit with shipping from Josh's Frogs... and actually MUCH less if I had to choose 2 day shipping from them lol.  It's a great site and all, but yikes that shipping!  Anyway, I emailed NEHERP and they said I should for sure do the express, and they'd guarantee live arrival that way.  So in a couple days I should have my stuff. 

Once I get the springtails I will put some in the tank, and start the culture with the rest.  How many should I put in the tank, and what is the best way since it's already set up and it's kind of hard to dig around in there much with tight space.  Can I put them right on top and let them work their way down, or should I at least try to lift the leaf litter so she doesn't immediately eat them?

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## Paul

Putting them on top is all you need to do  :Smile: 

Love me some NeHerp!

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## awelcome

I gotta say.... the stress of worrying about whether or not I am killing the plants is not my fave..... I know basically nothing about plants and wouldn't know if they were looking healthy or not.  There is a reason my house has a couple of fake plants and that's it.  I am misting usually once or twice a day (I use a spray bottle and spray each plant, the wood, the ground, and the background to get the humidity up to what I have been able to max out so far which according to my hygro is only around 88%).  The plants all have some water drops on them, and sometimes I also make a point to spray the base a bit more to wet the dirt more around them..... I just don't know how much is too much or too little.  Also, because of crowding issues in my smaller tank I wonder if they are all going to have enough space/light to grow or if they will die from that......

I am probably paranoid at this point, but I hate to think of what a hassle it will be to have to get new plants and move the frog yet again to plant them (it's hard to do even minor changes with her in there because I have to wait for her to be hiding in corner or she'll have a good chance of getting out.)

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## Paul

nature always finds a way  :Smile: 

With the drainage layer you have it removes the worry of over watering your plants. As long as you keep an eye on the water level in the drainage layer and keep it from touching the substrate layer you will be fine  :Smile: 

When I mist I don't sock the ground so much as I drench the leaves in water. The leaves are designed to allow water to funnel off and get the soil wet for the roots. I also spray the glass of the tank just to get some more water in the air.

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## awelcome

My drainage layer is still pretty low.... like only a little from the bottom because I wanted to see how things went for a bit and see how fast it might rise with whatever I do daily.  I REALLY didn't want to have things swamp out and have to redo for both the hassle and cost factors so soon after doing it.  I will gradually get more comfortable and raise it I am sure.  I spray some of the back glass, but I like to leave the front a little less covered so I can see in there.... not much point in having a cool viv and pet if you can't ever see them lol.  When I have to turn a/c on the whole thing fogs way up and I can't see in there much at all lol.

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## awelcome

looking at drainage layer... it does seem lower than the day I set it up and dumped that water in..... does it evaporate that much?  Maybe I should add more.... I was more concerned about it catching up to the top, less about it evaporating away lol.

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## awelcome

added some more... it still looks low in some places but closer to half in others, the way it sits around the drainage stuff so I think I will leave it at that.  Anyway, I also found another large semi-firm poop, so that's good.  With how much she eats I am always worried I will find runny poops which I read on a lot of the threads about parasites.  Hopefully my springtails arrive today and I can get a cleaning crew going for the poops I don't see.

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## Paul

Yeah it will evaporate pretty quickly. I don't spray the front glass just the back and sides. I soak my tanks pretty good. I mist mine 2 sometimes 3 times a day depending on my mood and what the tanks need at the time.

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## awelcome

I like being able to spray that exo terra background as much as I want and not having to worry about cleaning glass back there lol... and so far I haven't seen a fly issue but not many make it into other parts of the tank right now lol.  Today a few did scatter so maybe one or two will find their way back, but that's no biggie.  It's pretty sealed up though, and the only part where I got a little too much off the side I stuffed moss into.

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## awelcome

here are a couple crappy phone shots of the drainage layer... hopefully you can see where the water sits.  Does that look ok?   You can also see where I had some substrate leak down because the barrier moved a little when I put it in and it wasn't quite large enough.... that little bit should be ok right?  On the worst spot I took a strip and put it on the side to try and keep more from falling down.  The right side seems slightly higher for water level... it's possible my bricks aren't super level there, but hopefully it isn't too high on that side.



I could have swore when I put the drainage layer in it was more level, but I think it just settled more in certain places.

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## Paul

It looks fine! You have learned well  :Smile:

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## awelcome

ok, shipment came in... I am about to need some serious help.

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## awelcome

First off... I don't know how to get things set up for the culture and whatnot.... I THINK the springtails came in ok condition... I see some moving around.  I also see some fast moving bugs on top that I don't know what they are.  Are those also springtails?  

I have a bag of charcoal, a tub, a container of some powdery yellowish substance that I think is the food?, and the culture.  When I do open the springtails, whatever those things on top are will bolt I am sure.... How do I put some into my tank, and then make the culture from these items?

I also set up my digital hyrgo.... for lack of a good spot to put it I placed it in the back lower corner next to the glass thermo since it suctions to the glass.  Is there a better spot to put it?  I imagine I want to put it somewhere I am least directly spraying?

I also got my extra stuff for fly cultures.  I have two cultures right now (purchased) and while it was overflowing the other day it seems somewhat lower today (the second one) so I wondered what is the best way to start another from the ones I have without depleting those cultures too much?  Like how many flies do I need to dump into a new one?

Thanks.

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## Paul

Ok here we go

Rinse the charcoal in your sink. You can either use a strainer or the bag the charcoal came in. 

Add rinsed charcoal to your container. Fill container with about 1" of water. 

Did your springtails come in ABG mix or charcoal?

I always hang mine as close to the middle of the tank as possible. 1/2 way down the glass is fin, but I stick the suction cup to the center of the glass to I use and let it dangle in the center of the tank. 

You want to add around 50 flies to new cultures. The new ones will start producing flies in 2 weeks.

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## awelcome

I read their site instructions, but still a few questions....

They say to put on just charcoal for culture... but it comes in a mixed substrate type thing.  So how do I move them from that to the charcoal without getting it in there?

I am thinking of doing like suggested and using the fern bark or whatever to move them to vivarium... so I was going to get them into the culture first, and put the fern bark in there overnight with some yeast to get them on it and shake it into viv tomorrow.  So I hopefully just need to figure out how to get them into the culture right now.  I also sent them an email to know if my culture arrived ok.... when I look at the container I only see one, maybe two moving around plus whatever is on top (like 4 bugs or so and I don't know if those are also springtails) so hopefully they can answer that for me.  I did get express shipping, so that's good.  I had hoped to get them in today, but I want to do this right lol.

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## awelcome

regarding the hygro.... my top is still screen.  I have glass over top, and need to actually get a piece cut to size to fit into it, but I will be leaving the screen since perhaps (I know it might eventually rust and I will consider removing then).  I am going to have to go with measurements though for the cut, and don't want to leave anything to chance that there might be a gap and not have the screen there anymore.    So I can't hang it from middle unfortunately.

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## Paul

The NeHerp media is awesome. 

1/3 cup water in the deli cup
Pour media over water (2/3 cup I think but check the bag instructions). 
Add another 1/3 cup water slowly getting all the media wet
Add a splash of white vinegar
Abut 12 grains of the yeast they send taped to the media

Then add your excelsior and flies. 

I write the day I made the culture on the side of the cup to help me ensure I am using the oldest culture first and to help me toss them in the trash at 30ish days old.

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## awelcome

wonder if I can somehow suction to top corner, run along top, and hook to the screen and let dangle... will look at that later

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## Paul

On the side glass halfway down is fine also.

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## Paul

Here is how I did it. 

Springtails float in water. I filled there cup of mixed media full of water and then slowly poured it over my charcoal. 

Once you have enough in the charcoal ( the more the better to get the culture going.  Will take it 30 days to start producing). Then just dump the container into the tank and spread it around some  :Smile:  the excess water will drain into you drainage layer.

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## awelcome

I don't think I will be getting a reply from them today... and really hoping to at least get them out of the shipping container and into the culture kit.  Their business closes at 3 today unfortunately.  

So I filled it halfway with the charcoal... but do I for sure need to rinse it?  Their site didn't say anything like that in their steps for setup.  

I have the shipping culture in what seems to be ABG type mix, and I need to transfer them to the charcoal bin without the mix according to their instructions which state not to use a mixed thing.  What do do about those bugs that are going to get out as soon as I open it too?  

Then once I get them in... sprinkle some yeast, spray it with treated water, and also do a little on that fern piece and leave it for night.  I hope if I don't see any bugs when transferring them I can get some help from them tomorrow on getting more or whatever.

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## Paul

What color are the bugs ?

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## awelcome

we were replying at same time... so if I put water in there and dump out into the culture is it ok to have water in there at bottom just sitting there?  That also wasn't in their instructions that I saw.  And should I see a lot of them come out?  It seems so full of the ABG I don't really see anything else.

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## awelcome

bugs on top have wings and look greyish and looking closely they may have some rings on their body but they are hard to see now with the condensation on plastic and moving so fast.

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## awelcome

ok read their page for the 10th time and see they say to put water in bottom too, so will for sure do that.  Dang kids keep distracting me lol.

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## Paul

Ew on the bugs. Try to kill any of those you see. If there are a lot of them I would not add this culture to your terrarium. Get the spring breeding culture going and kill all winged insects you see. 

Spring tails are little white bugs. About 1/8 long. They are so light they float in water. Filling it with water will bring them all to the surface. You will see them then. The will not drown so don't panic and rush  :Smile: 

Then slowly pour the water onto your charcoal but try not to get the ABG in the culture. Come ABG won't hurt and the spring will eat it as it breaks down. 

Then pour the remaining water and ABG mix into your tank. I would then add water back to the shipping cup and look to see if more springtails are floating if so pour that into your culture and then add more water to the culture so it has about an inch of water in the bottom. 

Rinsing the charcoal is optional.

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## awelcome

so I can open it outside and let those escape?  Good.... I don't want to deal with such fast moving, jumping around bugs lol.  Sucks that they might be an issue though.... I do want to go ahead and get these in and give it a try.... but will see what they say tomorrow when they reply too and see if I need to dump the whole thing..... hopefully not because I don't want to have to buy the kit again too!  Getting it set up now... will update how it goes... thanks again for the help and being so prompt!

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## Paul

With it being infested they should send you out a replacement culture for free. 

I'm hoping you have tons alive in this one and get a free one  :Smile:

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## Carlos

IRT springtails and FFs, read this:  Frog Forum - Culturing Livefood for your Dartfrogs and Frog Forum - Fruit Fly Culturing, Care and Feeding - Everything you need to know about Drosophila.

You want to split your springtail culture when population booms.  Also, you want to start a new FF culture from one that is starting to produce new flies.  That way, when the time to throw the older culture arrives, you will have a new producing one. 

 Myself dump around 50 flies in a 32 oz. plastic cup with 1/8 teaspoon of CA supplement.  Shake them a bit and then shake them flies (not the CA) into new culture cup.  The CA powder is supposed to help knock off and reduce presence of any mites  :Smile:  .

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## Josh

Hey, I should be getting a springtail culture with attached food (yeast) from NEherp in the next couple of days. Would I have to order their charcoal, or would regular store charcoal for barbecues work if it is rinsed?

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## Paul

You need horticultural charcoal. Garden centers will have it. Don't use BBQ grill charcoal.

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## awelcome

so that was a task.... the bugs on top flew away immediately.  I tried filling container with water and then slowly pouring, but I was getting more ABG than anything.  So then I started pouring that into a cup, and spooning the springs off the top into the bin getting LESS ABG in the process.  That was taking forever after a while, so I put the whole thing into a larger container and filled that with water.... then I poked through it for what seemed like hours moving the debree around to get as many springs as I could find.... and I mean even the TINY ones.  Finally decided I didn't see any others so I drained that, put a little more charcoal in and set it up with some yeast to see if any more show up before I toss it.  I sprinkled some (though I don't know how much I just know they said not to put too much) yeast onto the culture, sprayed that and will see how things go.  

Honestly I don't know how many there were, but it didn't seem like that many.  I am not sure in it's current state I have enough to put some in my tank AND leave them in there to hope they produce more.  I will see what they say hopefully tomorrow regarding the bugs, but if they don't offer a new culture I am not sure what I should do in this situation.  Would it be better to NOT have springs in my tank for the time it might take for this to become an abundant culture or to try and put some in now anyway, and hope for the best in both the tank and the culture?

Also regarding the eventual booming culture.... I definitely don't want to be keeping a bunch of cultures at a time.  I am not even sure I want to keep more than one for now.  Is it going to become an issue pretty quickly?  If I am adding them to the tank periodically will I get too many in one culture still?  If I DON'T want to make new cultures from it what would I do?

Regarding fly cultures... I have two premade ones now that I alternate from as needed.  How many cultures should I have at one time?  I got the stuff to make new ones, but again I don't want too many at a time for space reason, and just the hassle of it.  Also if they have to be used within 30 days, I definitely don't want too many going at a time with just one frog, no matter how much of a pig she is.


I had a generous amount of charcoal in the kit, which filled it more than half way so I reserved a little and that's what I used in the left over thing.

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## bill

> Hey, I should be getting a springtail culture with attached food (yeast) from NEherp in the next couple of days. Would I have to order their charcoal, or would regular store charcoal for barbecues work if it is rinsed?


You can use activated carbon the stuff you would use for aquarium filters. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

ok, so let me wrap my head around this.... FF thing.

So I have the two... problem is I have no idea how old they are or how long they sat on store shelf.  But assuming I can get production for that 30ish day timeframe, and I have had the oldest one for a week and half now, when should I start at least one new culture from the stuff I got?  How long before it is safe to say it will be a producing culture?  Thanks again!  I know I ask a LOT of questions, I just really like to understand everything lol.

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## bill

Re fruit flu cultures: over time, you'll be able to gauge when your cultures are about to burn out. The media in the bottom gets more and more brown. I make new cultures when's start feeding from new ones. That gives me about 2-3 weeks for the new cultures to take off. Some people make them weekly, or biweekly. But they have many frogs to feed. 4 cultures is a decent amount to have. 2 active feeding ones to alternate with while the others are starting out. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

oh and I kind of don't hate that the process of feeding the springtails smells like smokey bacon!!!!! :Wink:

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## awelcome

ok, I will try to tackle making a new culture (or two) tomorrow then... Too burned out after that springtail chaos to deal with it right now lol.  One more question on that for now... I bought 4 containers.  When a culture dies can I wash out the container or would I have to get more each time?  I have the two I bought in plastic jar type things with screw on lids, and the 4 from NEHerp.

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## Paul

I agree with bill. I would setup 2 cultures tonight and continue to feed from the 2 you have until they are gone. When you start feeding from the 2 you make start up 2 more. 

The 30 day thing is a guide line more than it is a rule. Re cultures can last for longer.

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## bill

You can. But if you have a sam's club or costco or something like that around you, you can get deli cups (the plastic ones from ne herp) cheap. I pay $5 for 50 and $4 for 50 lids from a local restaurant supply store. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## bill

> The 30 day thing is a guide line more than it is a rule. Re cultures can last for longer.


Yeah they can  :Wink: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

so then how do you vent your own lids?

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## Paul

Regarding springtails - your tank will be fine for 30 days while you let the culture boom. Then add some to the tank. You won't need more than the one culture with just one frog. There isn't a magic point where you HAVE to make a 2nd culture. Just keep feeding the springs as they consume the yeast ( the amount of yeast I use varies depending on how fast they eat it).

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## Josh

If I wanted, could I simply add the springtail culture I ordered to the three bags of ABG mix I ordered in a large tub, and simply feed them with brewer's yeast on top of that soil? I don't plan on breeding, and that would be the ABG mix that I would add to my tank once it's completed.

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## bill

> so then how do you vent your own lids?


Cut a hole, hot glue a coffee filter to it. When you make a new culture, just take the coffee filter off and replace with a new one.  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## bill

> If I wanted, could I simply add the springtail culture I ordered to the three bags of ABG mix I ordered in a large tub, and simply feed them with brewer's yeast on top of that soil? I don't plan on breeding, and that would be the ABG mix that I would add to my tank once it's completed.


If you aren't keeping dart frogs, or have tadpoles on the way, just dump the container in your Viv with the ABG and away they will go. They will feed if decaying plant matter in the ABG and from frog waste. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

even my hair smells smokey after working over that charcoal for so long lol.

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## awelcome

here is a shot of one of the bugs on top... I trapped it in the lid so I could get a shot of it.  It's not a great shot unfortunately since I had to use my phone and crop super close.

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## Paul

I don't have a restaurant supply store to use. I am in the process of converting glass jars into reusable fruit fly cups. If it works I'll let everyone know.

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## Paul

That is an odd bug to randomly be in a spring culture. I'd send that to them in an email tonight.

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## awelcome

sent an email, thanks.  Kind of odd that I got a dirty feather in my leaves from Josh's Frogs and these bugs in my springtails from NeHerp.... guess I have rotten luck lol.

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## Paul

It's nature  :Smile: . No matter where you get your leaf litter from it is good practice to rinse them well and do a 10% bleach dip then rinse again good before adding to a tank

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## awelcome

probably true... but if I am going to have to do all those steps I may as well collect stuff from my yard and not pay for it rofl.  I have neighbors with mangolia trees.  And I didn't bleach, but I did boil them for 30 minutes in dechlorinated water.

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## Paul

Properly treated leaves, moss, wood and rocks anything nearly can be cleaned and treated for use.

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## awelcome

it's a relief to know the analog Hyrgo likely wasn't TOO far off... either that or this one is equally off lol.  They were registering about the same earlier when I had them both in (and the temps have lined up with the glass thermo on the dual analog most of the time as well).... but it's nice to have the analog out of there and off the prime sitting spaces of the log and definitely NOT attached to the glass!

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## Paul

Yay! Confirmation always feels good.

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## awelcome

just wanted to say thanks again for the tip to order through NeHerp.... they have already contacted me back and are sending another culture and reimbursing me the first because they guarantee no other microfauna in their culture.  They suggested transfer with the tree fern fiber, which I will do from the culture to the vivarium, but I am still a little confused about transfer from the culture they send to the culture I started.... hoping they can clear that up for me even if it is something as simple as just putting the culture into a larger container and then using the fern fiber.  Anyway, as you said, their customer service is fantastic as well as their prices and I love that they care.

oh and this is what they said in regards to the bug...

We've recently begun trying to pre-seed some cultures in advance to  increase each culture's population, but that extra time could increase  the likelihood of encountering fungus gnats.  (Which are harmless, and  often naturally occur in a live vivarium during initial acclimation -  see VC102  for more detailed info)  You shouldn't expect any detriment to either  your vivarium or future cultures, but we will be re-evaluating  pre-seeding them for sure!

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## Paul

Mike and Jessica are awesome! Glad you had a great experience there too!!

I never had any luck with the tree fern fiber trick they recommend. 

Oh for future reference - to get springs out of your breeding culture to put in the tank I use a largish leaf. Sprinkle some food on there the day before and 12-24 hours later it will be crawling with Isopods  :Smile:

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## awelcome

good idea, and I have plenty of extra magnolia leaves lol, and some already all boiled and ready!

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## awelcome

Am I killing it already?  This is just one leaf, the rest looks ok still to me, but for a few days at least it had maybe one or two small brown spots/holes and then this  morning I found the whole bottom of the leaf brown like this and it looked slimy, but it could have just been wet.  I don't know if it matters, but it did come close to touching the wood in there, which is dark brown and did turn the water brown when soaking it, but I am not sure it actually touched.  More likely I am just awful with plants rofl.

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## bill

Creeping Jenny? Just like animals, plants need acclimation time too. Some will die off a bit before growing back, some will stall out for what seems like forever and some will just grow like nothing ever happened. Remember, they are going from low humidity to very high humidity, they just need time to get used to the new conditions. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

The tag said Creeping Charlie.  So if I find more leaves like that should I snip them off also?

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## awelcome

it also seems that maybe my red bromeliad is fading or turning more green... is that normal/ok?

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## bill

Ahhh, creeping Charlie. Another good plant for a Viv. Only pinch off the dead ones as long as there are live ones. The brom will color up if it gets bright enough light. Otherwise it will detail to it's green, patterned self. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

Is there harm in it being greener?  Like is the plant unhealthy?  Unfortunately I live in what I like to call a cave.... and other than the light on top, the room gets very little.  I could look for a brighter bulb.... if it were necessary.

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## bill

No harm at all. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

ok, thanks..... 

on another note, I am about to set up those other fly cultures... should I use cold, warm, or hot water?  Their package didn't specify.



nvm... found it on their site, to use hot.

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## awelcome

2 cultures made... much easier than doing the springtails lol.  I only put probably 40-60 flies in though, because didn't want to pull too many from what I had.  I heated the water on the stove (treated) because I had it at room temp, but didn't let it boil.  I still feel like it was pretty hot though (which they called for) and wonder how that doesn't raise the temp too much in there initially.... Smelled like cinnamon toast crunch lol.  

Question on storage. I have them on a shelf in my under the stairs closet.... it's the only place I could think of in the house that wasn't near a window, or near things like my food or living space, that would also not get too hot or cold.  The only other spot that might have been good was the laundry room, but it's a very small room and with the dryer running it can get quite hot/humid in there.  So anyway... my question is whether that is going to work out.... it's dark, but there is a light in there I could leave on at least part of the time.  It said dark and humid could create mold, and to allow for ambient light.... of which there isn't any in a closet.

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## Paul

Turning the light on in the closet will help the flies be more active. I don't foresee any issue with that space, but if you do start to notice mold in one culture I would relocate the other one to somewhere else and see what happens. 

I have my cultures in my basement and the only light they see is the ambient light from the frog tanks, they do just fine there.

I am actually uploading a video right now to youtube about fruit flies. It features the NeHerp media and how "I" setup the cultures. I do follow their instruction on their website... mostly lol.

I will put a link to it in your thread when it is done processing.

Paul

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## awelcome

I wish houses had basements where I live.... not a common thing.  Too much water in the ground.  Would be a nice place to store these undesirable things lol.

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## Paul

I put a thread up for this, but here is a link to the Fruit Fly video I did. Hope it helps some  :Smile: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjDyJo387fs

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## awelcome

someday maybe my questions will end.... or at least slow down.


I have noticed the leaf litter feels kind of slimy at times, and I see some fuzzy mold growing on parts as well.  I know I have read that mold in the first couple weeks is normal, but is that the "normal mold" or something I should be concerned about?  I haven't broken down the temp thing I was keeping the frog in that day I did the rebuild yet, and the leaf I had in there is completely fuzzy with what looks like cotton candy mold.  It's to a much lesser degree in the viv, but I am starting ot see it on certain leaves that I can see the sides because they are propped up a bit.

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## awelcome

great video.... and a good feeling to see I do it the same way pretty much exactly!

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## awelcome

here is the leaf from that temp enclosure.... obviously an extreme case lol.  But this is what it looks like.  Nothing else in that enclosure (substrate, moss, and a few fake leaves) has any of this on it.

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## bill

Normal mold  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

that's a relief!  If it gets that severe in vivarium should I pull any leaves out though?  What about the slimy texture on some?

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## bill

Nope. Just leave them.  It will go away on it's own in a few weeks. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## awelcome

even better!  Thanks.

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## awelcome

I know I could technically make a new post in the plant section to ask this, but I kind of like having all my answers in one spot to keep checking at least for now since I have so many questions.  It gets confusing keeping up with all my question posts lol.

Anyway.... I am still just so confused about the health of my plants, and was hoping you experts could take a quick peek at what I have and see if there are any red flags yet lol.  So I will include some pics of them, and sorry they aren't the best.  It's really hard to get pics of some of them because of the light/location.  I am most concerned at the moment about that one in the back (I think it was called Confetti).  I planted it in the back because Josh's Frogs labeled it as such, but I worry it's crowded and not thriving between the two broms.  It was a bit of a puzzle to fit things in as you know however, and I am not sure I had a better spot for it anyway.  She likes to sit on the leaves... and poop on them lol... so part of it is that she bends over the weaker ones getting down like the one in front.  But it just doesn't have the space to grow from what I can tell.

Thanks for always helping ease my fears and guide me through this lol.  At this point I am pretty sure of the frog being ok, and it's just these darn plants lol.  



I hope you can at least get a general idea of their overall condition from these photos.  Oh and in the corner behind the green brom you see a few leaves... that is a fake stem I put back there for better cover because that's her hiding corner and it's a plant she seems to like.

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## awelcome

So... that leaf that was leaning over the log from the back plant was even worse today so I went to pinch it off but it actually just came up from the root...... like when I pull up my hyacinth after they wilt down and they come off from the bulb.  Do you think it's rotting at the roots, or just that stem?

Also.... and this is a mystery to me, I was watching her soak in the water bowl thinking maybe she'd poop in there again and I would clean it when she was done.  I didn't see her do anything though, but then when she jumped out I saw what looked like a tiny leaf (turned yellow) in there with a red dot.  I don't know if it was IN her, ON her, or what... but I also wonder what the red dot was.... hopefully not blood!  I tried to snap a pic.



and if I haven't said it enough... I truly appreciate you guys answering all my questions especially when they seem like silly questions to you guys probably at times lol.

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## Paul

I'm not sure what that is on the leaf. I would think blood would mix in with the water more... Did you take the leaf out to inspect it?

It's hard to say. It's possible that the stem touching the wet wood caused it to begin to rot. Sometimes plants die off after being added to a terrarium, but most likely will grow back. If you think it is rotting at the roots than smell your tank several times a day. You will smell it rotting if it is.

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## awelcome

yeah that's what I was thinking about blood too.... I did take it out and put it on paper towels and there was no transfer of color, and it fell apart when I tried to move it around.  

The stem wasn't really touching the wood, it's tucked behind it a bit, but hopefully it just figures itself out and starts thriving lol.... if you look up a couple posts to the one I put all the plant pics in you'll see that is the one I worry the most about at this time.

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## awelcome

So regarding that back middle plant... another stem rotted at the base so I plucked it off. I fear it maybe has root rot... which I see can happen from overwatering.  I don't know if I have or not, but I don't know what else to think.  I did notice the base was somewhat exposed (that particular one had a larger root section and it was harder to get it all covered in the level of substrate used), so I put a little more substrate, moss and leaf litter at the base of it, but for all I know that might actually make it worse.  Is there any hope it will revive itself?  I hate to think it will fully die out, but I don't know much about root rot.  I am going to try to NOT water that one as much for now and see if it at least helps.  I really only spray around the enclosure for a few seconds a couple times a day, so not sure how I gave it that much water to begin with.... could it have been doomed from the start?  It kind of seemed like some of the leaves that have so far turned yellow and come off from the base were already slightly yellowed when it arrived, but I didn't notice any dark base/roots at the time (I also didn't really look admittedly).  Now when a stem comes off I notice the bottom is brown and soft.

Here is a shot of the day I got it.  Sorry it's rotated... forgot to fix that.

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## Paul

You can trim the roots back with some scissors to help it fit better. 

Those types of plants drop leaves as new one grow. I wouldn't worry to much. If they all start to fall off than remove the whole plant and replace it if you want.

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## awelcome

I don't see new ones growing, but it is hard to see into the plant well too.  I probably sound so dumb, but my plant knowledge is like none.... for regular plant leaf drops would the base turn squishy brown like that?  Since it is already planted, and of course the hardest plant to get to without taking EVERYTHING out I will leave it as is, but good to know about trimming roots if I ever need to replace it in the future... which I hope not.  I know many of you enjoy building your vivariums, but I was just glad to get it done and don't look forward to having to redo part of it already lol.  Thanks.

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## Paul

Lol totally understand that. 

Yes those plants will loose leaves and they will die off and begin to rot. It will prob be ok. Just keep an eye on it. I had one in my Mantella tank. It started to look sickly then greened up and took off.

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