# General Topics > Vivarium, Terrarium & Enclosure Discussion >  Question: If you had a 250 gallon tank, what would you do?

## netpez

All,

New to this game, and I have recently divorced the reef keeping world (entirely too much chemistry involved). 

I currently have a marineland 250 gallon deep dimension (60" x 37" x 27") with cornerflows (I can remove the overflow pieces, and use the plumbing to a sump (if I decide to do a paludarium).

I have a hole in the wall to fit the tank, that backs into a fish room with a floor drain and water filtration setup (real filtration that can yield 0 TDS water)

I am leaning towards setting up a paludarium with small fish, and possibly red eyed tree frogs (always loved them since I was a kid). Although my wife is pestering for a chameleon... lol

So the question to you all...... how would you setup this beast of a tank?

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## Krispy

With a carpet or rainbow python lol.

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## Amy

The hard part is having a shorter tank is that makes it a bit less friendly for tree frogs.  Though with 27 inches tall, it isn't impossible.  My reds are in a 24x18x24, but they tend to go vertical rather than using horizontal space.  Personally?  I'd do a large group of darts (a breed that can be kept in groups.)  Research which dart you would enjoy the most and build them an awesome huge paludarium.  I believe a chameleon needs a taller enclosure and heavily ventilated ?full screen cage? as well as high humidity (that means keeping ambient humidity up.)

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## bill

I would do darts as well. A larger species that won't get lost in there, like D. leucomelas, and if the D. Tinctorius family, or the Phyllobates genera. I have a 125g paludarium with the smaller phyllobates, P. vittatus. And they do tend to get 'lost' in there. 

When building a paludarium for frogs, you are going to hear about water depths and them being poor swimmers and 'omg! The frogs are gonna drown!'  Just make sure to give them easy exit points to get out of the water and avoid floating plants. Froglets can possibly confuse floating plants for land, fall in and get trapped under them. (This is the only documented drowning I have come across). 

Amy is correct, chameleons need relatively high humidity and a lot of ventilation. Both which can be done in a glass box, it all depends on how much work and designing you want to put into it. 


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## netpez

Awesome input guys... although I will say, when broaching the subject with my wife, she said absolutely no snakes.

I had a chameleon when I was a kid, had him for a long time until I went off to college, and I do know, you cannot keep them in aquariums, because humidity can actually get too high and cause respiratory issues.

Here are some ideas I have:

Utilize the corner overflows (one for land drainage, one for water drainage)... this will require removing the plastic overflow pieces, and cutting down the pipes (height of the water I desire, and probably flat for the land drainage.

These pipes will lead to a sump, where biological, mechanical and chemical filtration can occur. Sump will also contain an ATO (automatic top off system) to ensure water levels are maintained.

I will also be implementing an automatic water changing system via the sump.

All water goes through my RO filtration system, I assume everyone uses 0 TDS water? I also assume that de-ionized water is not used.

Was thinking about using a neptune apex system to help control various aspects of the tank, including lighting, water changing, etc, etc

I was leaning towards LED's for my lighting, as the spectrums would be customizable.

Also, will be using mist making equipment.

I had an idea about programming my neptune apex for simulated storms. It would coordinate the lights (dimming and flashing to replicate lightning), and rain bars. Almost simulate a true rainforest atmosphere.

Bill, are those darts toxic? If they are, isn't there an issue with them contaminating the water (that the fish are in) ?

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## bill

All frogs have toxic secretions, including darts, however, darts lose their toxicity in captivity. Their toxicity is based upon their diet in the wild. (That's the short of it) they are not toxic to the point of poisoning a water supply. There's been debate as to whether fire belly toads (bombing orientalis) have this ability, but there is no scientific evidence proving it. In fact, I know MANY fbt keepers who keep fish with their frogs without any incident. 

If you want a larger species frog that would LOVE a full blown paludarium setup, check out mossy tree frogs (T. Corticale). They will use every bit of tank space, but may munch on smaller fish. They divide their time between water and land. 


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## Amy

Also make sure that everything is quarantined, fish and frogs, before putting them together.  You don't want to risk them getting something that they can pass to each other.  A tank of mossy frogs would be pretty awesome too.

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## Xavier

With a tank that size, I'd go for some of the larger ranid frogs (Pig, bull, multiple green/bronze/leopard) because you seem to know what you're getting into, and you actually have a tank large enough, unlike most people who get bullfrogs

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Larry Wardog

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## netpez

I think what I will need the most help with is vegetation, and how to actually build out the landscape.... I was very good with the rock structure and placement of corals in my reef tank, but I have no idea how to make these tree like structures, and how to layout the land vs water areas...

Also... Red eyed tree frogs are technically not diurnal, but I was wondering if any keepers here experienced them doing anything other than sleeping during the day. If all they are going to do is sleep all day, I might go with fire -bellied or dart frogs which I believe are active during the day.

Also, does anyone keep small water turtles (such as musk turtles in their tank with fish and frogs?

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## bill

Flora is the easy part. There are hundreds, if not thousands of plants you can use in a frog tank. It's just a matter of matching the plant to the environment. Down do well in high humidity, but not all. The challenge is coming up with an operational hardscape you like, and that is a whole other discussion.  :Smile: 

Re: red eyes. When I kept them, mine were purely nocturnal. Rarely did I see them during the day. In contrast; with the exception of one or two species, my darts are always out and about. But that was just my experience with red eyes. I am sure others will chime in, like Amy, who keeps retf's and gray tree frogs. 


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## Krispy

Shame about no snakes... 

Our retfs sleep all day. Rarely they wake up and re position. Herman chirps in his sleep from time to time. 

We have 10 firebellies in a planted 40. Love it. They sound like little monkies. Active, hearty, and they do some really funny stuff if you watch for a while. 

Maybe some whites? That is a tig ol big ol tank... if you want ill post a pic of my snake tanks "extension"/lid. We gained a foot of heigth and it opens like a hinged lid. All things are possible with a little tinkerin...

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## Xavier

My RETF always slept in the day, I had to watch him in the dawn to wake up and hunt and such. Occasionally my American green tree-frogs were active in the day, when there was high humidity that day or an overcast/rainy day. The same applied to my Cope's gray tree-frogs as well

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## AAron

With that size of tank I would add on a pair of species to my Vivarium. Id have pairs of American Toads, Northern Leopard Frogs and Wood Frogs or Five Lined Skinks. It would be cool. If you want Tree Frogs, Whites are great because they are great beginners due to being so hardy, but they get big and have a personality. You could have the bigger species of ranid frogs if you wanted, really jealous of the size of your tank. Haha


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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## Jason

What about a large amphibian? In a set up like that you could plant it and have a few large toads like smooth sided or Asian giant toads, would be very cool!

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## Xavier

> With that size of tank I would add on a pair of species to my Vivarium. Id have pairs of American Toads, Northern Leopard Frogs and Wood Frogs or Five Lined Skinks. It would be cool. If you want Tree Frogs, Whites are great because they are great beginners due to being so hardy, but they get big and have a personality. You could have the bigger species of ranid frogs if you wanted, really jealous of the size of your tank. Haha
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A precaution about the skinks, if you do get one, they are _extremely_  fast! You can tame them, but getting one in the first place...

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## Xavier

> I think what I will need the most help with is vegetation, and how to actually build out the landscape.... I was very good with the rock structure and placement of corals in my reef tank, but I have no idea how to make these tree like structures, and how to layout the land vs water areas...
> 
> Also... Red eyed tree frogs are technically not diurnal, but I was wondering if any keepers here experienced them doing anything other than sleeping during the day. If all they are going to do is sleep all day, I might go with fire -bellied or dart frogs which I believe are active during the day.
> 
> Also, does anyone keep small water turtles (such as musk turtles in their tank with fish and frogs?


Ahh, I wouldn't recommend keeping turtles with frogs. Turtles have sharp beaks and claws, which could be devastating to an amphibians soft skin

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## Jason

I just wouldn't keep anything other than species per tank. Some people do so for display purposes but I don't think it has the animals best interest at mind.

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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## AAron

> I just wouldn't keep anything other than species per tank. Some people do so for display purposes but I don't think it has the animals best interest at mind.


I don't have the 2 species I have for display purposes, I have them together because I have the money, the experience, the tank size, and etc. I have one Toad that turned 1 in August and today Is my Leopard Frogs birthday. I understand if you were talking about the post with turtles but if mine was meant, I am just standing by what I have. 


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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## Xavier

> I don't have the 2 species I have for display purposes, I have them together because I have the money, the experience, the tank size, and etc. I have one Toad that turned 1 in August and today Is my Leopard Frogs birthday. I understand if you were talking about the post with turtles but if mine was meant, I am just standing by what I have. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Guys, we don't need this argument again. This specific mix is very bad, the turtle would probably eat the frog

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jasonm96, Larry Wardog

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## Xavier

Also, if your wife  is dead center on getting chameleons, you could look for Pygmy leaf chameleons and setup a colony of them. They don't climb that often, they're a terrestrial species, not arboreal like most chameleons

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## Jason

Didn't have you at mind. I went into a pet shop the other week saw wild caught adult fire bellied toads with a baby captive bred european tree frog in a 10-gallon, yeah that's in the animals best interest... not. just display and means to save space. Very few species will do well together but if you do have the resources, experience and have the animals best intentions at mind then go for it, by then you don't need my approval - but a lot of people will just throw them together without a thought. No we don't want to have this argument again, but a turtle and a frog is not a good mix.

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Cliygh and Mia 2, Larry Wardog

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