# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > General Discussion >  Why are thumbnails harder to care for?

## Lyda Mae or she mae not

Eventually I want to keep thumbnail dart frogs because they are so cool...  I am a noob and want to know why they are harder to care for so that I can have it filed away for when I take on the challange.  So aside from the fact they are smaller, Why are thumbnails harder to care for?

~Lady

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## Paul

I don't know that they are "Harder", but because of their size changes in temp and humidity affect them pretty quickly. I think one of the biggest challenges for them is them not escaping. It's almost like they actively look for ways to get out. Some will even wait for the doors of the tank to open and then make a break for it. Its fun and scary all at the same time.

Some Dart frogs are labeled as advanced or for experienced keepers because they do not tolerate our mistakes. While others can tolerate us letting the tank fall out of the parameters for a short period of time. 


Hope this helps  :Smile:

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Lady

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## Lyda Mae or she mae not

> I don't know that they are "Harder", but because of their size changes in temp and humidity affect them pretty quickly. I think one of the biggest challenges for them is them not escaping. It's almost like they actively look for ways to get out. Some will even wait for the doors of the tank to open and then make a break for it. Its fun and scary all at the same time.
> 
> Some Dart frogs are labeled as advanced or for experienced keepers because they do not tolerate our mistakes. While others can tolerate us letting the tank fall out of the parameters for a short period of time. 
> 
> 
> Hope this helps


I thought it would come down to something like that.  Thanks

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## Lynn

This question is a great discussion topic.

I agree w Paul --- great attention to important care tips !

Actually, I don't think thumbnails are really any_harder_than any other dart frogs; as long as we are aware of some of the pitfalls.
I think that my 2 species of thumbnails are more tolerant to temp. swings than say .... my D auratus group 

The 2 species I keep ( R imitator "Varadero" and R variabilis "Southern " ) are very bold, bright, beautiful, AND always at the door !!!!!

IMO The most challenging part of keeping thumbnails:
1) they escape easily   :Frog Surprise:  --- because of their inquisitive nature and size ( small openings need to be secured )
ie the tubing opening in the exo terra tanks  
-one needs to very careful when open the enclosure to feed/regular maintenance. They are door lurkers  :Big Grin:  (I have had plenty of close calls)
-when I have to do a big cleaning etc --- I remove the frogs !
2) Many new to the hobby think that because of their small size they can be kept ,permanently, in smaller enclosures
 -a smaller QT set-up is ok temporally , but they LOVE to climb and will use all of the space in a  24 H enclosure -where they will flourish
3) newly emerged froglets and juvenile frogs are more sensitive
4) they need springtails as regular a feeder w/ the usual use of the smaller species of Drosophila melanogaster fruit flies 

Hopefully other members with thumbnail will chime in !

 :Butterfly:

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Lady

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## bill

I can speak from experience that they are escape arists. Lynn was very kind enough to gift me a pair of varadero and they escaped on me through the vent slots at the top of their enclosure.  :Frown: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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Lady

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## chibikaie

I can't properly speak for amphibians specifically, but I can attest to the effects of people thinking that small animals must be easier than big ones because they eat less or take up less space.

They do not take up less space just because they can be physically crammed into a smaller enclosure. That depends much more on activity level than size. And if you put too many in the same enclosure, there is usually one on the bottom of the pecking order who gets beat up. This is the one who comes to me with bite wounds, or the one who comes to the clinic because she's become sick due to the extra stress, while the other animals are reported to be "fine" (I know they are not, but cannot prove it).

Eating less is also a big trap. I have seen people buy dry commercial food in bulk, which loses nutrition while the bag sits open in their humid, room temperature house. I have seen people vastly overfeed small animals because they can't gauge how much to give them - all with the best intentions, but they will offer too many sugary treats and again, the animal suffers from a poor diet due to nutritional deficiencies. And if one doesn't master rearing appropriate size and well fed live food, frogs will likely suffer in the same ways. People don't see the effects right away, but they are more prone to diseases, infection, parasites, everything. And in a tiny animal, you are very limited in what supportive or palliative care you can provide. There is no room or time for an error.

I want to stress that I'm not saying proper care cannot be provided. But it can be very difficult. I know I'm not at the level of dart frog care - that's why I have a pacman.

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Lady

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## Lyda Mae or she mae not

I am getting a Dendrobates Leucomelas Fine Spot for my first frog.  They are said to be more beginner friendly.  I intend to get Ranitomeya Variabilis at some point after I am more confident with the frogs.  I expect to build bigger enclosures in the future and limit my numbers of frogs in an enclosure to avoid problems.  I will also make sure I plug any holes over with apropriate materials.  Sorry that your two thumbnails got out Bill.

~Lady

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## Evaradero

And also with thumbnails, the construction and designing of the vivarium must be alot different than lets say tincs. Tincs you can just heavily plant the viv and there wont be too much conflict being that they dont see eachother. But since thumbnails climb everywhere and like to spend their time in the upper regions of the tank, there needs to be alot of visual barriers. Bromeliads, drift wood, ledges all being good ideas. They all need their calling spots (they mature and call at a young age) and that may be a difficult part when dealing with thumbnails

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## Paul

> And also with thumbnails, the construction and designing of the vivarium must be alot different than lets say tincs. Tincs you can just heavily plant the viv and there wont be too much conflict being that they dont see eachother. But since thumbnails climb everywhere and like to spend their time in the upper regions of the tank, there needs to be alot of visual barriers. Bromeliads, drift wood, ledges all being good ideas. They all need their calling spots (they mature and call at a young age) and that may be a difficult part when dealing with thumbnails



That is not entirely accurate. There are some thumbnails who get along great in groups and even do group breeding like Ranitomeya. They do enjoy a good planted tank with lots of vines and such to climb in and on.

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## Evaradero

I was just going off of imitators since those seem to be some of the more popular of the thumbnails. I have a couple different imitators who have gotten aggressive if their vivarium wasnt planted/designed properly

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## Paul

Yeah some do not get along great in groups for sure, just wanted to make sure we didn't do a blanket statement and accidentally lead someone astray.

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## Happy Frog

I have found that once they've been in their enclosure for awhile they stop trying to escape. It is true though, the second they see a door open they take off.

With Imitators I still have not had luck keeping them in groups.  There are people who have success with keeping 2 pairs together in something like a Exo Terra 18x18x24.  If I remember correctly that's how Lynn keeps her Varaderos.  Mine refuse multiple frogs and I can only keep my Varaderos as pairs.  I have a trio of Nominant imitators together in a 12x12x18 and so far everything is fine, but one day the two males might start fighting.

One other thing about thumbnails is that they are Typically more expensive than Leucs or Tincs, depending on what species you get.

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## Evaradero

Yeah i have 4 imitator varaderos in a 30 gallon tank. 3 Calling males and a female. Lots of broms and ledges to choose where to call from so there isnt any fighting in my tank. Just remember that even if there are multiple calling spots, they may fight for one that is the best

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## AbranV

Since thumbnails are such escape artists and like to hang out by the doors. Is there a preferred style of tank that would help keep them incarcerated? For example, front opening Vs. aquarium style?

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## Lynn

> Since thumbnails are such escape artists and like to hang out by the doors. Is there a preferred style of tank that would help keep them incarcerated? For example, front opening Vs. aquarium style?


I keep Varadero offspring in smaller 'aquarium' style enclosures.
It's nerve racking. 
I favor exo terra enclosures however, so my opinion is not really objective.

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## bill

I used to use aquariums primarily, but switched to exo's. As long as you are diligent about checking your opening area, either will work just fine. 

I will add this though: if using an exoterra or similar tank, you MUST silicone the cable slides in the back of the lid shut. I learned from experience that thumbs can and WILL escape from the smallest of openings  :Frown: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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