# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Beginner Discussion >  Starting a dart frog vivarium?

## Adellelys Oasis

Hello, I am new to dart frogs and have many questions. lol But I'll start with only a few. I am wanting to start a vivarium using my 40 gallon breeder and if possible I would like tips and other information on how to begin or start a vivarium. Also since I am new to dart frogs are there any that you guys would suggest I start with and what would their husbandry be like? (my girlfriend and I especially like dendrobates tinctorious and ones that have a lot of yellows, greens, and blues) I'd like to make the vivarium full of live plants and mosses with a fair waterfall. I've heard you can put one frog per five gallons of the tank but I think I'd only start with a pair or just three frogs.

Thanks,
         Tyler.

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## BonnieLorraine

The frog per gallon rule doesn't work with dart frogs, most species are quite territorial so no matter the size of tank, on some of the species if you put in more than a pair someone is going to die. Tincs do best in pairs, but auratus and leucomelas would do well in a small group in that size of tank. Waterfalls aren't really a great idea for a beginner, the frogs can drown, and building it usually results in more frustration than it is worth. A drip wall is feasible, if you want to put some extra time and reseach into building. The biggest thing for growing live plants is your soil and the lighting. For my tanks I use double high output t5's with 6500K bulbs. You'll want to have a good drainage layer in your tank, either raised egg crate or hydroton, and ABG is one of the best soils you can use in a terrarium, drains well and doesn't rot your plants.

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## Adellelys Oasis

> The frog per gallon rule doesn't work with dart frogs, most species are quite territorial so no matter the size of tank, on some of the species if you put in more than a pair someone is going to die. Tincs do best in pairs, but auratus and leucomelas would do well in a small group in that size of tank. Waterfalls aren't really a great idea for a beginner, the frogs can drown, and building it usually results in more frustration than it is worth. A drip wall is feasible, if you want to put some extra time and reseach into building. The biggest thing for growing live plants is your soil and the lighting. For my tanks I use double high output t5's with 6500K bulbs. You'll want to have a good drainage layer in your tank, either raised egg crate or hydroton, and ABG is one of the best soils you can use in a terrarium, drains well and doesn't rot your plants.


I appreciate your response.  :Smile:  So my girlfriend found a racer and would like to keep it in the forty gallon so I'll probably end up using a 20 tall to start out with, how many (auratus or leucomelas) would you recommend I place in there? I definitely don't want any froggy casualties so I'll stray from the waterfall idea. What plants should I use, and are morning glories okay to put in with them?

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## DartEd

40 breeder is a nice large tank to work with a terrestrial dart. Bonnie basically summed it right up.  I use NE Herp substrate which is a variation of ABG( they substitute the peat for coco coir or vice versa). I also use 2 48 inch high output T5 6500 K lights on my tank rack because they generate less heat then the cfls I had.  

Keep in mind that although the temptation might be there, it's inadvisable to mix species in the same vivarium.  There are many complications that arise from breeding sickly hybrids to territorial issues that can lead to the death of one or more frogs. If you like many frogs, go with multiple 20 gallon tanks and house each species separately. They're all very rewarding in their own right.

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## Adellelys Oasis

> 40 breeder is a nice large tank to work with a terrestrial dart. Bonnie basically summed it right up.  I use NE Herp substrate which is a variation of ABG( they substitute the peat for coco coir or vice versa). I also use 2 48 inch high output T5 6500 K lights on my tank rack because they generate less heat then the cfls I had.  
> 
> Keep in mind that although the temptation might be there, it's inadvisable to mix species in the same vivarium.  There are many complications that arise from breeding sickly hybrids to territorial issues that can lead to the death of one or more frogs. If you like many frogs, go with multiple 20 gallon tanks and house each species separately. They're all very rewarding in their own right.


I was not meaning mixing species I plan on only keeping one species in a tank I was just asking how many auratus or leucomelas I could keep in a 20 tall. I can still try to find another 40 breeder I was just curious what I could do with a 20 tall.

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## BonnieLorraine

You could do about three in a 20 tall. Morning glories kind of go in the category of "giant invasive weed", they climb the power lines here lol. Some of the more common terrarium plants you'll find are Ficus pumila minima, Ficus pumila 'Quercifolia' (oak leaf creeping fig), Pellonia species, Pileas, smaller Peperomias, mini Neoregelias, the list of possibilities is huge. I would stay away from pothos, normal creeping fig, and wandering jew unless you want those to be the only plants in your tank, they tend to swallow everything up.

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## Adellelys Oasis

> You could do about three in a 20 tall. Morning glories kind of go in the category of "giant invasive weed", they climb the power lines here lol. Some of the more common terrarium plants you'll find are Ficus pumila minima, Ficus pumila 'Quercifolia' (oak leaf creeping fig), Pellonia species, Pileas, smaller Peperomias, mini Neoregelias, the list of possibilities is huge. I would stay away from pothos, normal creeping fig, and wandering jew unless you want those to be the only plants in your tank, they tend to swallow everything up.


I absolutely love morning glories. I'm growing five different species in the greenhouse for my horticulture class. haha I have about six flats full of morning glories.  :Embarrassment:  I suppose I could always trim them... daily... lol

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## BonnieLorraine

You must be back east, here they are a perennial nightmare. My roomate used to giggle over the photos of greenhouses full of them, when here they're a weed. I spent 6 months killing one that had swallowed a front yard.

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## Adellelys Oasis

> You must be back east, here they are a perennial nightmare. My roomate used to giggle over the photos of greenhouses full of them, when here they're a weed. I spent 6 months killing one that had swallowed a front yard.


Ironically I am in Eastern Kansas. lol Many people here consider them a nuisance but I find they gorgeous especially how they only bloom early in the day. lol Also what type of lighting would you recommend? I'm not wanting to spend an outrageous amount on lighting alone. :P

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## BonnieLorraine

The cheapest way to find high output t5's in the correct range (6500K) are to look up online grow places or hydroponic stores, 2 foot fixtures can be in the 20 buck range. Just make sure whatever you get has a reflector, or if it doesn't they sell snap on reflectors that snap directly on the bulbs.

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## Adellelys Oasis

Also can you buy ABG substrate anywhere else other than Josh's Frogs and if I use that will I need anything else other than the hydroballs or could I use a layer of river rock instead of the hydroballs?

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## bill

> Ironically I am in Eastern Kansas. lol Many people here consider them a nuisance but I find they gorgeous especially how they only bloom early in the day. lol Also what type of lighting would you recommend? I'm not wanting to spend an outrageous amount on lighting alone. :P


Aquatraders - Guaranteed Best Prices on Aquarium Lightings + Free Shipping! they have inexpensive lighting. i have several of their units. look for freshwater planted tank t5ho's.

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## BonnieLorraine

River rock is going to get very heavy, people like the hydroballs because they're made of terracotta and very light weight. There are a few places that carry ABG, I know glass box tropicals has it, and I carry it as well, but Josh's might be the cheapest for shipping since they get quantity rates.

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## Adellelys Oasis

> River rock is going to get very heavy, people like the hydroballs because they're made of terracotta and very light weight. There are a few places that carry ABG, I know glass box tropicals has it, and I carry it as well, but Josh's might be the cheapest for shipping since they get quantity rates.


For some reason their websites click-able tabs aren't working correctly so it wont let me add anything to my cart. lol But if I use the ABG substrate do I still need to use any others? I know I'll still have to use the hydroballs.

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## bill

nope. abg will be all you need.

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## Adellelys Oasis

> nope. abg will be all you need.


Well I'll have until May 5th to get everything prepared!  :Big Grin:  Any other hints or tips would be much appreciated, or fun facts!

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## bill

the best hints or tips i can offer is plan, plan, plan. also, take your time after setting up the vivarium to get your parameters right before adding your frogs to it. it is easier to make adjustments when there are no frogs to stress out. i normally order my frogs after i have the tank built. that way, after i receive my frogs, they go into a quarantine tank until their permanent home is set up, running and all parameters are in check. it also gives the microfauna time to establish themselves before i put the murderers in.....LOL

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## Adellelys Oasis

> the best hints or tips i can offer is plan, plan, plan. also, take your time after setting up the vivarium to get your parameters right before adding your frogs to it. it is easier to make adjustments when there are no frogs to stress out. i normally order my frogs after i have the tank built. that way, after i receive my frogs, they go into a quarantine tank until their permanent home is set up, running and all parameters are in check. it also gives the microfauna time to establish themselves before i put the murderers in.....LOL


How long does it take for springtails to establish themselves and what are their requirements to thrive?

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## bill

they will establish themselves rather quickly. a lot depends on the quantity that you start wit, obviously. in keeping darts, you will want to keep a springtail culture as well as a fruit fly culture, because the frogs will munch on the springtails. kind of like when you would sneak cookies as a kid...lol

their requirements are simple. damp substrate and they will feed on waste and decay that happens naturally in the enclosure.

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## Adellelys Oasis

> they will establish themselves rather quickly. a lot depends on the quantity that you start wit, obviously. in keeping darts, you will want to keep a springtail culture as well as a fruit fly culture, because the frogs will munch on the springtails. kind of like when you would sneak cookies as a kid...lol
> 
> their requirements are simple. damp substrate and they will feed on waste and decay that happens naturally in the enclosure.


Lol Yes definitely. So do they breed inside the vivarium or would I have keep replacing them and are they a necessity or leisure item? I know they help keep the tank clean but without will it become moldy and have fungi growing everywhere?

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## bill

i would classify them as a convenience item, like power windows on a car...lol they will multiply on their own, but not as quickly as if there were no frogs in the enclosure. without them, you'll just have a bit more maintenance. removing poo and such. 

and no, you won't grow mold and fungii without them. you will definitely get fungus on any wood the first month or so thay the tank is set up. it will be white and fuzzy. this is normal and will go away on it's own, so don't freak out when you see it. you may even get some musbrooms from time to time. tbey won't hurt the frogs.

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## Adellelys Oasis

> i would classify them as a convenience item, like power windows on a car...lol they will multiply on their own, but not as quickly as if there were no frogs in the enclosure. without them, you'll just have a bit more maintenance. removing poo and such. 
> 
> and no, you won't grow mold and fungii without them. you will definitely get fungus on any wood the first month or so thay the tank is set up. it will be white and fuzzy. this is normal and will go away on it's own, so don't freak out when you see it. you may even get some musbrooms from time to time. tbey won't hurt the frogs.


Okay then I may just pass on those for now. lol So how about pitcher plants and venus fly traps? I finished my background and I'm ready to put some plants in the pots that are on the wall and I was thinking about placing a fly trap on the wall and a pitcher plant on the ground level but I'm not sure if they'd eat my frogs. lol

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## bill

lol, no, carnivorous plants won't eat your frogs. sorry, i don't mean to laugh, but i giggle every time i hear that. it's been a debate on another forum for a while. venus fly trap would need intense lighting and a cold period to go dormant, so they would not work in a dart tank. most domestic pitchers, such as sarracenia species, grow way too large for a viv. some tropical pitchers, like nepenthes species, grow extremely slowly, but will eventually outgrow a viv. so.e even grow pitchers up to 12" in height. if you truly want a carnivore in your tank that won't consume aot of fruit flies, check out a sundew. drosera spatulata is a good candidate, due to it's tolerance of high humidity. keep inmind that not all sundews can handle high humidity. there are also some bladderworts that work, but they need a bog type situation to survive. i could go on and on about them, but my break at work is over....lol

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## Adellelys Oasis

> lol, no, carnivorous plants won't eat your frogs. sorry, i don't mean to laugh, but i giggle every time i hear that. it's been a debate on another forum for a while. venus fly trap would need intense lighting and a cold period to go dormant, so they would not work in a dart tank. most domestic pitchers, such as sarracenia species, grow way too large for a viv. some tropical pitchers, like nepenthes species, grow extremely slowly, but will eventually outgrow a viv. so.e even grow pitchers up to 12" in height. if you truly want a carnivore in your tank that won't consume aot of fruit flies, check out a sundew. drosera spatulata is a good candidate, due to it's tolerance of high humidity. keep inmind that not all sundews can handle high humidity. there are also some bladderworts that work, but they need a bog type situation to survive. i could go on and on about them, but my break at work is over....lol


Well that's pretty disappointing. I was really looking forward to putting those in my vivarium. lol But it's okay I'll find some other stunning plants to place in their.  :Smile:

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## bill

there are an infinitesimal number of stunning plants you can use. there are many species of orchids that are well suited for vivariums, bromeliads (ugh, over used..lol), begonias, tillandsias, episcias, ect.  it all depends on your taste and skill level.

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## Adellelys Oasis

> there are an infinitesimal number of stunning plants you can use. there are many species of orchids that are well suited for vivariums, bromeliads (ugh, over used..lol), begonias, tillandsias, episcias, ect.  it all depends on your taste and skill level.


Bromeliads are used so often because they are so easy to grow and keep alive. Also they are gorgeous. I already have a couple I plan on putting in my vivarium. ;P

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## DartEd

Just wondering how the build is going.  I didn't reply back because Bonnie and Bll were providing you with all the answers already but I have been keeping tabs. D you have any pictures of your progress?

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## Strider18

I would love to see if this tank is done and what it looks like. It sounds like it would be a beautiful tank  :Smile:

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