# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > General Discussion >  Why is breeding different species of dart frogs among themselves so frowned upon?

## Necromencer

Well. I've been doing a bit of initial research on dart frogs and I was thinking of making my own vivarium for this summer, and I've come across a few threads about people who have been given/bought mixed frogs. Now, many people make it crystal clear to isolate them for they could breed and create 'hybrids'

So, my question is, what is so bad about hybrids? 

*The only legit reason I've read so far was the hybrid could be born deformed and ill, subsequently dying shortly after birth. 
** Seen a few arguments saying that hybrids are not what nature intended, feeble claim to be honest. 
*** Seen others who say that hybrids look 'funky' and can never be sold. 


So, is the hatred just ethical or is there a practical and legit reason why hybrids shouldn't exist?

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## Daniel

I personally don't think its our place to be making "hybrids". The animals are very pretty as it is. I hate hybrids but if they are made they do deserve a good home.

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## Carlos

> ... So, my question is, what is so bad about hybrids?  ...So, is the hatred just ethical or is there a practical and legit reason why hybrids shouldn't exist?


Animal hybrids is a sensitive subject that seems to involve prejudgement and emotional responses/discussions.  Just go back to your post and read the words: "feeble..hatred" and will see what I mean.  There is nothing wrong with guns... I mean hybrids  :Frog Surprise:  .  It's what humans do with them!  

With luck and genetic knowledge, humans can develop attractive animals by selectively crossing some species!  Complications arise when the hybrids result fertile and the race to develop a "masterpiece" also generates thousands of lower quality offspring that must be culled... but usually are not.  They flow into the market and the big problem is; are usually offered as true species contaminating it's genetic pool.  Other times the breeder will not be able to market them and not willing to cull them... will release them in the wild, thus creating another set of problems.

If unlike "Fantasy" frogs; the Dart hybrids can reproduce, it's a real problem to the true species and a valid reason for Dart frog fans to be against them.  What you do is your decision, but I hope at least now you can see the dangers an improperly managed breeding hybrid poses to the natural species populations.  If someone wants to defend the later, even if they sound "feeble and full of hatred;" they are in their right.  My recommendation to you is to keep true species and enjoy the gift mother nature has bestowed upon us.


BTW, I've kept and bred Central American cichlid hybrids for 10 years.  They are very popular across Asia (where they originated) and have a small but aggressive support base in the U.S.  Still have 3 adult males and after they die, it will be over for me and the ever changing Luo Han!  Good luck and have a nice weekend  :Frog Smile:  !

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## Necromencer

> Animal hybrids is a sensitive subject that seems to involve prejudgement and emotional responses/discussions.  Just go back to your post and read the words: "feeble..hatred" and will see what I mean.  There is nothing wrong with guns... I mean hybrids  .  It's what humans do with them!  
> 
> With luck and genetic knowledge, humans can develop attractive animals by selectively crossing some species!  Complications arise when the hybrids result fertile and the race to develop a "masterpiece" also generates thousands of lower quality offspring that must be culled... but usually are not.  They flow into the market and the big problem is; are usually offered as true species contaminating it's genetic pool.  Other times the breeder will not be able to market them and not willing to cull them... will release them in the wild, thus creating another set of problems.
> 
> If unlike "Fantasy" frogs; the Dart hybrids can reproduce, it's a real problem to the true species and a valid reason for Dart frog fans to be against them.  What you do is your decision, but I hope at least now you can see the dangers an improperly managed breeding hybrid poses to the natural species populations.  If someone wants to defend the later, even if they sound "feeble and full of hatred;" they are in their right.  My recommendation to you is to keep true species and enjoy the gift mother nature has bestowed upon us.
> 
> 
> BTW, I've kept and bred Central American cichlid hybrids for 10 years.  They are very popular across Asia (where they originated) and have a small but aggressive support base in the U.S.  Still have 3 adult males and after they die, it will be over for me and the ever changing Luo Han!  Good luck and have a nice weekend  !


Yes, I understand this subject is largely subjective. 

Feeble in the sense that it is too subjective. I wanted to know the real ramifications of cross-breeding, moral and ethics aside. I won't be doing it, but I wanted to know what all the fuss was about. 


Although I respect that nature should be left as it was intended, it's not a 100% objective and valid reason not to cross-breed. Sure, it should be enough to convince/motivate you out of it. 

In a hypothetical situation, where somebody were to cross-breed and keep all of the off-spring, how would that be look at? Good or bad?

If, let's say, you were a breeder who sells these frogs, I can understand the community not wanting to let cross-bred/impure breeds into the market, but what if it was all for personal use?

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## bill

carlos brought up some excellent points. i am on both sides of the fence on it. if you are allowing species to intebreed for your own personal enjoyment, i say who cares. just as long as you understand that there could be risks to it and most likely nobody will be willing to offer advice on a sickly hybrid. as far as them mucking up the gene pool, well, if a breeder is buying his frogs from some dude on the internet, well, i figure the breeder gets what he has coming. lol

remember folks, especially everyone who has a dog, without hybridization man's best friend would not exist today. 

i stated before in another thread, keeping the species true for quality control is the only reasonable explanation i can buy. if someone wants to purchase a certain morph frog, then that is what they should get. plain and simple. but remember, this is only MY opinion. and like they say, opinions are like butt holes  :Wink:

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## bill

duh....i had a brain fart, please disregard the dog portion of my comment. there is a difference between selective breeding and hybridization.  :Frown:

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## Carlos

> ...In a hypothetical situation, where somebody were to cross-breed and keep all of the off-spring, how would that be look at? Good or bad?
> 
> If, let's say, you were a breeder who sells these frogs, I can understand the community not wanting to let cross-bred/impure breeds into the market, but what if it was all for personal use?



From personal experience will tell you that a person who breeds hybrids and keeps/culls all the offspring, does not care what others think of him in that regard.  Funny  :Big Grin:  , have difficulty answering because I've always assigned higher values to independence/privacy versus social acceptance; hence... my "I don't care position."   :Frog Surprise:

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## bill

it's kind of funny. the people who come up with new breeds of any animal are always considered outcasts and deviants, until their breeds becomes the "in" thing. then they become geniuses....lol unfortunately, for some animals, it could take decades to develop a strain that is not only new but stable. and stability is the key.

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## DartEd

I am personally on the side of not mixing species.  My reasons as strictly a hobbyist, are for the ethical implications. I believe nature gave us beautiful animals that have hybridized in the wild, Natural selection has ensured that the only the fittest hybrids survive, and they've thrived.  Why mess with it?  I try to discourage inexperienced hobbyists from mixing species due to the complications that can be faced and the fact that many hobbyists aren't prepared to deal with these complications.  We have to remember that we're dealing with animals and not inanimate objects. We can't throw away an animal because its not perfect, yet some hobbyists would release it leaving nature to do its thing. 

 Hawaii is over run by non native species of frogs that were introduced by uneducated importers, hobbyists, and others.  They weren't aware of the implications of their actions or didn't care. This affects the ecosystem, most times in a negative fashion.  

All that being said, I also believe in everyone's right to do whatever they want within the laws.  If you feel this is something you need or have a strong desire to do, whether I agree or not is irrelevant.  I respect your right to do it.

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## Jeffww

To people like me who enjoy collecting species for their intrinsic value or their biological uniqueness. Having hybrids circulating around can damage the hobby. When I pay for a species I expect it to be of pure line. It should be D. tinctorius not some random garage cross. The same issue happens with cichlids. We don't want hybrids because they're hard to identify and are often sold under the incorrect name. 

I don't really have any ethical problems, but as a big fan of taxonomy. The risk of passing off hybrids as another species is too great.

edit: also on a similar note. I find it sort of reprehensible to keep the same species of frog from two very different locales. These frogs are likely to be only one of a few accessions available to hobbyists interested in the varying characteristics of similar species across areas, having them cross makes them lose value. Same goes with very similar subspecies. 


So I guess it comes down to: 
Having an aesthetic appreciation for the frogs. In which case you would want to interbreed to produce the hardiest and most colorful and unique animal. 

Having a biological appreciation for the frogs. In which case you want to keep your individuals not only with just conspecifics but also from the same source. 

But of course the health of the line is just as important as any of these considerations.

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## Lynn

Friends,
Wow ! What a great thread. I go to bed early and missed all the fun. The moment is probably gone.  :Frown: 

Actually, the best part is we can have this conversation without throwing _things_  at each other.
I’ll take care of that when I see Ed this weekend.
How about you , Uncle Billy, why don’t you try to make the drive to White Plains this weekend----I can hit you over the head with my purse.  :Big Grin: 

My thoughts.........not my practice.........are all over the place with this, mostly because I have a good imagination and not a genetics degree. 

Seriously, I  stay on the same side of the fence as Ed and Bill…. never mix species, morphs of the same species and even go so far as not to put pairs together that came from the same parents so to produce “healthy offspring” . ( ie like father and daughter  :Frog Surprise: ) I feel like it’s my responsibility. I look at it as black and white. As a 'rule'.  

I’m surprised that no one has started a business in the dart trade utilizing some kind of a swap thing as it would help the overall genetic diversity of each species. 

I’m sure ‘inbreeding” and poor husbandry goes hand and hand as well ? ( ie over breeding and a diet of nothing but FF !) Both situations, we know, can cause  tons of problems with the frogs we keep and on the reproduction of healthy off spring. This is just as big a responsibility. Like anything else, sadly, some people just don’t care. Oh boy !  I'll stop there  as I'm sure I'm walking on thin ice. 

I always wonder?
I've not been on trips to view darts in the wild…but are we even _reproducing_ frogs with the same exact clutch sizes, colors, and body size of the WC? And do they - ever- interbreed in the wild?

WE CAN’T keep taking them from the wild ….that a scary thought and a whole separate topic. 
So now what ? 

 :Butterfly:

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## Lynn

I'm sure like me you all enjoy reading as much as possible.

 dendrobates.org is one of my favorite past-times.
You can go on forever and ever off the external links. ie Tree Walkers ...of which  joining/donating is well worth the investment.

This is a link from the "About Us " pages with information about important and passionate individuals.
Sadly , I don't' think it has been updated recently and at this point, some of  the _personal account_ links are broken.  :Frown: 

Dendrobates.org - About us

check out the "mint white"  P terribilis -- This got me hooked !
http://www.peruvian-frogimport.com/

and this ! http://www.dendrobates.org/mysteriosus.html

enjoy the photo gallery !
http://www.dendrobates.org/photo_gal...bum/index.html

Lynn

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## DartEd

I'm glad you mentioned swapping off similar line frogs.  Many breeders that I've met actually do work out trades with each other.  Frogs can be interbred for a couple of generations without any degradation of quality or health.  Brothers and sisters can be bred with no problems. The problems start to develop 4-5 generations down the line which is why some breeders will trade male for male from separate lines in order to preserve quality and health.

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## COREY

Swapping off similar line frogs I very much support to keep the gene pool healthy and pure.  I have never seen anyone do hybrids but I am sure they are out there but remain very discrete about it.  I don't take that risk however is someone where to take pictures of it and post I would be amused of some new look and would hope they do their best to leave it in their own home and not trade or sell the frog off.

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## Lynn

Seems this thread has been resurrected  :Smile:  It's always good conversation.

My 2 cents
Not only is it frowned upon to interbreed different species and different morphs of one species of dart frog, it is also questioned when interbreeding from where one morph of one species originated.  We should respect our responsibility and privilege to protect the fragile and ominous status of frogs in the wild. ‘We’ want to keep things pure to protect this.

Here’s a sad, sad thought......_ from the inside > looking out_:
Someday, a morph or even an entire species may be extinct in the wild, but available only in captivity. I sure hope that if that should ever happen …….WE haven't mucked things up  :Frown: 

No one should ‘tell’ anybody what to do with their frogs. But it’s really scary to think of interbred offspring looking identically to one of the parents getting _out there_ without proper disclosure.

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## Ashley

Old thread I know but I wanted to chip in.  I'm not totally against hybrids.  But it can get messy.

I mainly keep and breed snakes and hybrids are always a very hot topic.  Especially with corn snake mixes.  There are some people who are on the whole, "It's not natural" side.  But the majority of people are against it because of breeders who are not honest or knowledgeable about what they have.  If they sell these snakes as pure then other peoples breeding stock becomes contaminated.  So, when a new morph pops up it is always questioned as to if it is actually pure corn snake.  Take for example the Ultra gene in corn snakes.  The original breeder also bred hybrid rat snake/corn snake crosses.  He couldn't remember who the parents were of the clutch that hatched out the very first Ultra.  It could be a hybrid or it could be a pure corn.  A lot of people are now scrapping the Ultra projects and labeling them as hybrids now after all these years because a well respected breeder in the hobby has decided the snakes are in fact hybrid.  So, now Ultra and any Ultra combination has become nearly worthless.  Yet, there are still respected breeders that claim there is no poof these are hybrids and nothing about the way they look says hybrid.  Plus the same hybrid pairing has been done many times since and no Ultra's have come from the hybrid pairings.  So, many say this is proof that Ultras are indeed pure corn snake.

Sorry for the long ramble.  But as you can see hybrids are a big can of worms and can wreck entire breeding projects down the road.  It's not just about the money.  It's about the how now all these once valued animals are now seen as worthless and everyone is trying to dump their project animals.  So the market became swarmed with them and no one wanting to buy them.  Meaning not many homes for these animals all because of the possibility of being a hybrid.

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## bill

I still think there is a place for hybrids in the hobby. I think it should be left to experience breeders to develop hybrids, not just the average hobbyist. Imagine "designer frogs". Taking the best traits from species and selectively breeding them until they are stable. A frog that is normally elusive in an environment is now not only active all day, but no longer just terrestrial and uses all parts of the Viv. 

As far as mucking up the commercial gene pool, I have a tough time swallowing that one. If some hobbyist bred a hybrid, he is most likely to sell it in an ad on a forum or craigslist, and it will most likely go to another hobbyist. Those breeders who are serious breeders aren't going to be buying these animals from Joe Schmoe off the Internet, they are like most of us and only buy from reputable breeders to diversify their stock. So, I'm not sure how the gene pool would get mucked up. 

Here's a question, if a new morph is created during captive breeding, is it considered a true morph?

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## Carlos

> ...Here's a question, if a new morph is created during captive breeding, is it considered a true morph?


IMO it would be considered a "true" morph inasmuch there are no "false" morphs  :EEK!:  .  A distinction with those being found in nature would be better made by calling those a "natural morph" or "naturally occurring morph" and those created in captivity could be called something relevant to their origin; like "captive morph" or "captive breed morph."  Just saying  :Smile:  !

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## bill

Captive breed morph works.  now here's part two of the question. Since morphs are normally caused by environmental conditions, and a captive morph changed due to a captive environment, where does that lie in the scheme of things, since it would, for all intents and purposes, be a man made morph?

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## Carlos

> Captive breed morph works.  now here's part two of the question. Since morphs are normally caused by environmental conditions, and a captive morph changed due to a captive environment, where does that lie in the scheme of things, since it would, for all intents and purposes, be a man made morph?


Since Man is Man we have this drive to name things and have them fall within certain parameters or "boxes" and when something don't; it's like it needs fixing.  

Don't think a "captive environment" will by itself create a morph, it's just too little time.  Appears to me once that different looking frog comes to life, the breeder has to identify it's value and make a decision to try and "fix" the morph or let it go.  Fixing would require selective breeding until that "captive bred morph" breeds true or mostly so. 

IMO developing a new beautiful dart frog morph would bring fame and honor to hobbyist that does that correctly.  By correctly, mean keeping records of all breed efforts and the specific morph origin, then sharing them with hobby  :Smile:  .   

Example:  Let's say Lynn breeds her Mint's and I get a couple of them.  Then I breed them and lo and behold; there is the first red colored Terribilis on Earth.  After showing the world my prized frog, it grows and through selective breeding does pass the trait on.  Even if recessive it's a doable thing and with Lynn's help we get the line going and call them "Terrible Strawberries."  So we would have a bit of fame, some needed $$ to invest in frog options, and our own captive breed morph to share with the world.  In the scheme of things, would say, that would be very cool  :Cool:  !

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## Alex Shepack

I won't actually participate meaningfully in this conversation but;

I just recently saw a group of hybrid darts (presumably _Dendrobates tinctorious x auratus_) that are now owned by a very well know hobbyist.  They were probably some of the prettiest frogs i've seen.  Big like regular tincs, reticulated like some auratus and varying degrees of color from white to blue.  They were awesome! I would love to have a tank full of them. 

~Alex 

(Please don't regard the above as an endorsement for creating hybrids...)

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## Bruce

I know, this is old... lol! But I agree with chipmunk, I think if a reputable breeder that truly knew what he/she was doing and has a vast understanding of genetics and dart frog behaviors/patterns, some truly stunning hybrids could come forth!  Imagine an Amazonicus the size of a tinc?  Or maybe the blues of an Azura with the stripes of a Leuc?  Again, it should be left to a professional, and it would need to be stable, but man it could be cool...

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## Heather

I am reading along, but have mixed opinions. I, myself, do not mix species. I'd say years ago before I really understood frogs, I would have been all for dart hybrids. I think I enjoy their "pureness", shall we say. I think their own natural beauty is what makes them fascinating. The colors they portray are so brilliant. 

I'm not saying an awesome pink frog with turquoise leopard spots wouldn't be cool and that I wouldn't want one if I saw it, I'd just fear what would happen to the hobby...at what point would the hybrids stop? Would anything remain pure once the rainbows begin? Or would it become a contest to produce the prettiest and most unique? I'm not sure.

I do love a good debate  :Smile: .

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poison

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## Carlos

> ...I'm not saying an awesome pink frog with turquoise leopard spots wouldn't be cool and that I wouldn't want one if I saw it, I'd just fear what would happen to the hobby...at what point would the hybrids stop? Would anything remain pure once the rainbows begin? Or would it become a contest to produce the prettiest and most unique? I'm not sure.  I do love a good debate .


Pink with turquoise leopard spots... now that's a pretty wild one Heather  :Big Grin:  !  Based on my experience with cichlid fish hybrids; once it starts, it would not stop.  Flowerhorns and other Central American cichlid hybrids have been around for over 2 decades and still attract fans, specially in Asia.  New Discus fish hybrids and morphs appear every year and there is a worldwide demand for them.  

Good news is that the frogs been hybridized (or morphed) are Darts (strongly discourage among hobby) or similar and they produce small manageable clutches.  Also, Pacman and many other frogs are not easy breeders; so even if they hybridize and produce large numbers, its limited to very few experienced keepers or breeders. 

What is needed is responsible breeders and hobbyists willing to cull any excess, unwanted or defective frogs; rather than passing a hybrid for a true species or natural morphs.  If not, the only pure guaranteed species would be available in the wild, and we all know that the source can't be exploited forever. 

Wild frogs are losing their ground to human habitat destruction; diseases are wiping out entire frog populations, and incoming global heating will change many habitats in the next 4 decades.  Cold blooded animals like amphibians will have a very hard time dealing with it and many species will probably go extinct.  And sadly, we might not be able to help much if we are too busy struggling with our own survival  :Frown:  .

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