# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  Canadian Nightcrawlers vs. European Nightcrawlers

## frogsanity12

Has anybody every used Speedy Worms? They are a wholesaler. I'm thinking about ordering a good amount of worms. Also is it just size difference between the two?

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## Pheathers

I heard the European ones produce a bad and possibly toxic substance. I have a friend who's trying to raise African night crawlers. They don't get very big though.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Use Canadian or African.

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## frogsanity12

Has anybody used speedy worms? Thank you for the replies the Canadians are more expensive but worth it. I just need some feedback on that company.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Has anybody used speedy worms? Thank you for the replies the Canadians are more expensive but worth it. I just need some feedback on that company.


I've never heard of them. Sorry  :Frown:

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## Crystal

> I heard the European ones produce a bad and possibly toxic substance. I have a friend who's trying to raise African night crawlers. They don't get very big though.


Ahh!  The European worms could be toxic?  First i've heard of this, tho I did read about some worms giving off a foul something or other.  I just bought a cup of 30 (_Eisenia hortensis_) from walmart Saturday afternoon, and my toad has eaten THREE already.  I can't find any other information or warnings about these, and when I google it, my own post pops up.  Neat-o.  But I hope these are ok.  He seems to like them and 18 of the Canadian were the same price as 30 of the European.  Not that I think going cheap is always good, but I'd only heard to make sure no dyes were used, along with pesticide, fertilizer.  It says on their website that these can be fed to frogs and such.  I just panicked when I read the above.  

Why are Canadian better?  Fatter maybe?  The cup of dirt they were in when I opened them in store had the look of being passed through the worms a few times.  But if they're worth it for a reasonable reason, I'll get those instead.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Ahh!  The European worms could be toxic?  First i've heard of this, tho I did read about some worms giving off a foul something or other.  I just bought a cup of 30 (_Eisenia hortensis_) from walmart Saturday afternoon, and my toad has eaten THREE already.  I can't find any other information or warnings about these, and when I google it, my own post pops up.  Neat-o.  But I hope these are ok.  He seems to like them and 18 of the Canadian were the same price as 30 of the European.  Not that I think going cheap is always good, but I'd only heard to make sure no dyes were used, along with pesticide, fertilizer.  It says on their website that these can be fed to frogs and such.  I just panicked when I read the above.  
> 
> Why are Canadian better?  Fatter maybe?  The cup of dirt they were in when I opened them in store had the look of being passed through the worms a few times.  But if they're worth it for a reasonable reason, I'll get those instead.


Canadian Night Crawlers are much larger and do not secrete foul mucus. Just a slime coat. Some earthworms do secrete defensive slimes that smell and taste bad. This so they are not eaten and they are toxic to some animals, but I do not believe frogs are one of thise such animaks. Frogs can eat Red Wigglers which secrete a foul slime, but it doesn't affect them. Although some frogs will not eat them because of the taste from the secretion.

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## Crystal

> Canadian Night Crawlers are much larger and do not secrete foul mucus. Just a slime coat. Some earthworms do secrete defensive slimes that smell and taste bad. This so they are not eaten and they are toxic to some animals, but I do not believe frogs are one of thise such animaks. Frogs can eat Red Wigglers which secrete a foul slime, but it doesn't affect them. Although some frogs will not eat them because of the taste from the secretion.


Phew.  Well I'm glad.  He's a toad and is better at that little game of foul tasting toxic secretions than any worm.  Go Banjo!

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## aGreenCup

I learned my lesson with red wigglers. Europeans all the way, I use them as my stable.

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## AMKReptiles

> Has anybody used speedy worms? Thank you for the replies the Canadians are more expensive but worth it. I just need some feedback on that company.


I buy Canadian night crawlers from speedy worms....they are really good the worms are fat and healthy...

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## motiszm

Oh the irony of the brand name Canadian Crawlers. Night crawlers are not native to the U.S./North America and are in fact European. So a Canadian night crawler is technically a European night crawler.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Oh the irony of the brand name Canadian Crawlers. Night crawlers are not native to the U.S./North America and are in fact European. So a Canadian night crawler is technically a European night crawler.


Lol!! Mmmaaaayyyybbbeeee!!

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## Crystal

> Oh the irony of the brand name Canadian Crawlers. Night crawlers are not native to the U.S./North America and are in fact European. So a Canadian night crawler is technically a European night crawler.


Hah, I looked it up and you're correct.  Damn Canadia, sticking their name on everything.  Up to no good...

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## Crystal

Ok, so I have a cup of Europeans (worms, not people) *Eisenia hortensis*, and I was just wondering if they should be fed something.  I'm fairly sure they'll be eaten (cup of 30, probably almost 10 gone since I bought them Sat) before it'd matter, but is there anything I can give them to make them more nutrition for my froggy friend?  Or should I just not bother?  Not much info out there unless you're using them to compost.

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## DeeDub

No need to gut load.  They eat dirt.....and dead people according to numerous movies and books....I think introducing anything they WOULD AND COULD consume would increase bacteria production in their dirt and pass it to your frog.  I'm pretty sure they eat decomposed material found in soil (humus....not the stuff middle easterners eat...sounds like hewmus).

Just feed em.

BTW, my Pyxies were raised on red wigglers.  My crannies and cornuta wouldn't eat em though.  Ornates eat anything like the pyxie.
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Thanks
DW

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## DeeDub

> Oh the irony of the brand name Canadian Crawlers. Night crawlers are not native to the U.S./North America and are in fact European. So a Canadian night crawler is technically a European night crawler.


No way.  No offense, but that is impossible.  Maybe I read that wrong, but there is no way the earthworms commonly found in Yards and gardens in the U.S. were imported from Europe. You have to be talking about a different species of worm. If they are that prolific that is astounding.

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Thanks
DW

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## AMKReptiles

"Eisenia hortensis" European nightcrawlers or "Dendrobaena veneta" Canadian nightcrawlers they are both the same even tho they have diferent scientific names
As fantastic as scientific ‘binomial nomenclature’ is, unfortunately from time to time those pesky scientists throw a wrench into the system and mess things up!

Every so often researchers will update the scientific name for a given species – typically once new evidence indicates that it is actually more closely related to species in another family, genus etc. Often it’s not as drastic a change as in the case of Eisenia/Dendrobaena – assigning various subspecies groupings for a given species for example, is something that occurs more often (especially with microbes and other teeny tiny critters)

As annoying as these discrepencies can be, it is really important for the scientist to make the change since it helps group organisms more accurately moving forward. Unfortunately there is no ‘CNN’ for mundane scientific news (like name updates) so this info doesn’t exactly go mainstream once it is announced! As such, these older names can end up lingering for quite some time.

What interesting about this particular case (and something that definitely does not help!!) is the fact that the Dendrobaena veneta name is still very widely used in Europe for some reason, while the new name has gained a lot more acceptance over here in North America.

Anyway, the bottom-line here is that ‘YES’ Both Dendros and Euros are one and the same!

Found this info, Hope it answers all the questions

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## Brian

> No way.  No offense, but that is impossible.  Maybe I read that wrong, but there is no way the earthworms commonly found in Yards and gardens in the U.S. were imported from Europe. You have to be talking about a different species of worm. If they are that prolific that is astounding.
> 
> -----------------
> Thanks
> DW


The ones I've most often seen called Canadian Nightcrawlers are _Lumbricus terrestris_ and they are native to Europe. They were introduced to North America with settlers to help with farming. As I understand it, most/many of our North American worms were wiped out in the last ice age especially in the northern regions and many of the species in these areas today are not native North American worms.

You're right they don't expand their territory very fast on their own, but don't underestimate the awesome powers of mankind to spread invasive species around willy-nilly and without regards to any consequences.



"Canadian Nightcrawler" might also be used for other species, but it's definitely non-native one that's pretty regularly seen in the bait shops under this name and also found in peoples yards.

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motiszm

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## motiszm

> The ones I've most often seen called Canadian Nightcrawlers are _Lumbricus terrestris_ and they are native to Europe. They were introduced to North America with settlers to help with farming. As I understand it, most/many of our North American worms were wiped out in the last ice age especially in the northern regions and many of the species in these areas today are not native North American worms.
> 
> You're right they don't expand their territory very fast on their own, but don't underestimate the awesome powers of mankind to spread invasive species around willy-nilly and without regards to any consequences.
> 
> 
> 
> "Canadian Nightcrawler" might also be used for other species, but it's definitely non-native one that's pretty regularly seen in the bait shops under this name and also found in peoples yards.



Yep, I'm from MN and for most of the state worms are technically invasive. Certain parts of the state are night crawler free and you are not allowed to fish with them there. They change forest under story composition by altering the "duff" layer on the forest floor.

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