# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  Dying or dead Pacman?

## Pac422

Hi everyone, 
This seems like a dumb question, but I am having a hard time determining if my "Pacman" is in estivation again or he died in the last 24 hours. Every year since I've had him in Oct Nov he goes down for 4-5 months. I know they say temperature changes can trigger this, but nevertheless nothing changes indoors and he does it anyway. I have always lived in Florida. He has currently been under going on month 4. During his down time his light still runs on a 12 hour on 12 hour off cycle and his water is changed every two to three days and his cage is misted lightly. Temp usually stays at 80 degrees during the day. Usually changing the water or misting causes his side to "pulse". Really this is the only clue to me that he is alive. However,  today he did not "pulse" and his one side is wrinkled and not as bloated as yesterday. His ecoearth has not been changed since right before he "laid down for a nap" since i read they shouldn't be disturbed during this time.  

Every year I think he's dead and then he comes out of it, so I am questioning if I should let him be or increase the humidity and see if he comes out of it. I have had him for almost 11 years. 

So, is there a way to tell if he is alive or dead without stressing him out if he is still alive? I looked under the bottom of the cage as his back end is on the glass, but I still did not see any movement or "pulsing" there either, but what is worrisome to me is it looked like fluid within his hard casing on the bloated side of his body.  :Frown: 

1. Size of enclosure- 10 gal aquarium with hood for light
 2. # of inhabitants- none; Kermit fly's solo 
 3. Humidity- 70% currently 
 4. Temperature- 80 on water dish side; 78 on the side where he is- after lights out temp drops to 75
 5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish- distilled 
 6. Materials used for substrate- Ecoearth 
 7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials. 
-1 large resin (hard plastic type- two sides and a roof) house used for fish aquariums- has fake plants on it, but out of frog reach. 
-Water dish is the exo terra feeding dish the shallow one-I believe it is the largest one that comes in the pack of 3. 
8. Main food source- when active fuzzy mice#1, Pacman soft bites food by Zoo Med#2, Crickets from pet store#3- I let him choose what he wants feeding day
 9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)- food of choice dusted with rep-cal phos. free calcium with Vit. D3 every 2 feedings.
 10. Lighting- exo terra daytime heat lamp 25w multi purpose
 11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure- light listed above 
 12. When is the last time he/she ate- 3 months ago, going on 4 
 13. Have you found poop lately- not since big meal before going into estivation
 14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)- says wrong file type and wont let me attach 
 15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area.- Ate a big meal and settled down for estivation like every other year. Had a rough summer, got mites from store bought moss, and had skin scraping of back and stomach/hind leg area (was red and patchy)- pathologist didn't know what was on the slide. I thought "reg leg" the vet said no. Also had "ulcer" on top of back that bled periodically, but eventually healed. Acted normal prior to "winter nap". Currently looking up through the bottom of the aquarium at his "normal" side... looks like fluid in between his skin and casing. Left side looking down on him is wrinkled today- normal looking yesterday. 
 16. How old is the frog- 11 years?
 17. How long have you owned him/her- 10 years 9 months
 18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred- came from PetCo- I would assume captive? 
 19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats- Pacman soft bites and Hikari pac attack sticks 
 20. How often the frog is handled- only when relocating to clean the cage, but not touched- latex free gloves used
 21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area- low 
 22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)- poop scoop several times a week, water change every 2-3 days (during estivation) 1-2 days when active and seen soaking. Total Ecoearth dump once a month, entire enclosure cleaned with dawn dish soap at that time rinsed thoroughly and sun dried. Towel dried in winter months.

----------


## Jason

It's funny how that even with the normal lighting, heating and humidity that some frogs will still sense the seasons outside and I've heard this is due to the pressure in the air. 

If you're concerned I'd definitely consider misting more, so the humidity stays around 80% stimulating the rainy season. I'd check out some books and go to the sections on brumation and health. Sorry I can't be of more help, I've not experienced this with my frog before but it's something I might read up on more just in case. Good luck and I hope your frog's okay

----------


## Pac422

Yes! It's like he knows (Florida) winter is coming. My heart says he didn't make it, but I am trying to remain positive. Last year I misted him A LOT to try and got him out of it...I even used mating call sounds from youtube. lol When he came out he looked quite malnourished and ate a ton. This past summer he had it rough- I tried adding sphagnum moss in addition to the ecoearth to help with humidity and he ended up getting mites in his cage, and some other "mystery illness" the vet or pathologist couldn't figure out. I would research estivation/brumation so you know what to expect as the first time he turned into a hard shell 10 years ago I was perplexed. 

Thank you for the well wishes. I will let you know what happens with Kermit.

----------

jasonm96

----------


## Lija

Well... Aestivation is a very dangeriuos even if done correctly, frog needs to be properly conditioned before going under and healthy, being "sleepy" is not real aestivation, but what you are describing is. 

Get him out of it or try to do so. I susspect your humidity is lower then 70 by much (check it with proper hydrometer). 
At any rate based on information you provided: increase misting by much for 1-2 days ( mist heavily a few times a day). On a day 2-3 place a frog into a warm water bath ( it can be his water dish, water level no higher then frogs chin, pour water on a back too). Keep in there for 20 min, very gently rub sides and the back. Usually that is enough. Hope Kermit is fine. Please keep us updated.

----------

Pac422

----------


## Pac422

Hi Lija, 
Thank you for your reply. I never wanted him to go into aestivation, its just something he did every year like clockwork even though indoor conditions never changed. Summer of 2015 was the first time he ever had medical issues. So I suspect he never really recovered from that even though he acted fine. I have the zoo med hydrometer in the tank, but I've read there are discrepancies over how accurate it really is. I suppose I should have bought a digital one, although people had the same complaint. 

It seems Kermie went to froggy heaven on Monday night or Tuesday. Monday was the last time I saw his side twitch when I was misting and changing his water. His tank was very fowl this morning, and he was dead weight in my (gloved) hand. No "chirping" like he normally did. His belly was black beneath the skin. His "shell" was filled with fluid on one side and his chin was bloated. I'd like to think I could have done more. I know he was 11 years old, but I've read the life expectancy was anywhere from 5-15 years so I was aiming for 15. Hopefully he had a good life. 

Thank you to everyone here for the advise. This is one of the better forums I've encountered and over the years I got a lot of education about Pacman frogs from lurking here. It just seems I was a day too late. 

Thanks again.

----------


## Jason

Sad to hear about your loss. Probably nothing you could have done, must have been his time. 11 years is a good age and I'm sure you done a good job to get him to that.

----------


## Pac422

Thank you Jason. I did my best. It bothers me not knowing if it was the stress of estivation, or some other preventable issue I didn't catch. At any rate he was an interesting little frog and I enjoyed having him all these years. One of the best gifts someone has ever given me.

----------


## josephz

Always sad when a pet dies  :Frown: 

You could try to get a necropsy at a vet, if you want to know how he died. 

You could always try again with Kermit II, though.

----------


## Jason

Estivation is a stress that these animals will have to endure in the wild and so a completely natural death, in a way it's the best death compared to some from bad husbandry. Amazing that you had it so long, more than the average wild lifespan and I hope I can enjoy mine for so long as well.

----------


## Lija

So sorry for your loss Don't blame yourself, it was probably combination of everything: infection earlier, age. At any rate, 11 years is a good age, you should be proud.  ..

----------


## Pac422

Yes it is a sad day. I did think of the necropsy, but there isn't a "good" reptile vet around here. Even then they may not find anything. I may try again again in the future. I always thought it was odd that only heard him croak twice in his life time, he usually only chirped when you picked him up. I actually think Kermit was a female, but I never had it confirmed. 

Thank you for your kind words. Good luck with your "Zoo".

----------


## Pac422

Thank you Lija, I am happy I got to enjoy him for so long. Others are not so lucky. I never did anything special, just followed care instructions and used common sense. Maybe he just came from a good breeder. =)

----------


## Pac422

That is what my husband said- "at least he died in his sleep". I was surprised that he lived so long; when I got him as a gift I was told 5 years tops, but when I did my own research I found out I was in for a MUCH longer ride. All my critters tend to live past their prime. My oldest cat is 18 years old and healthy, just slightly senile. I do wish my ferret had lived longer than 8 years- she had a "stroke" and heart failure. My horses are well in their 20's. Anyway, just be a good froggy parent and you will enjoy them for many years. 

Take care, 
H

----------

