# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) >  One size fits all?

## AbranV

I've been getting ready to get into darts or mantellas, but still can't make up my mind on what I want. Now as much of a "good" problem this is, it also carries some setbacks. For example, I want to build the best vivarium I can within my budget and abilities. My number one priority is frog health and comfort. I want to build my vivarium to suit my chosen frog, size, height, plants and so on. I've learned that I can't do that until I decide on a frog. 

I'm now thinking that it may be easier to find a "one size fits all" vivarium, then customize it to the frogs. Instead of building/buying a taller tank for an arboreal frog, or wider for terrestrial frogs, I'm looking for that happy medium.

To make it easier, let's say it will be for 4 to 6 frogs, probably a type of d.tincs, or any Mantella. And let's say that I have the following options for enclosures, 20 gallon tall, 29 gallon, 36 gallon bow front, exo terra/ zoo Med 18x18x18, or 18wX18dX24h

Will any of these be a good one size fits all? 

Any better suggestions?


Also, to keep my costs down, I'm partial to regular aquariums, but not limited to them. 

Thanks for any help with this.

----------


## Lynn

Hello,
 You will still want to narrow down exactly what you will be housing.
 Both of those species need more floor space ...........ie will not climb.
 The tincs should housed in pairs - not a group

 If you want a group of 4 or 5 ....an exo , for example 18.24wide.18H would be suitable for:
 -D leucomelas (would love a 24H ...  they will take advantage of a taller enclosure but not absolutely necessary) 
 -D auratus
 -Mantella
 -P terrbilis ( for 4 not 5) as these frogs are larger and need additional 'open' floor space

 -a pair of tincs can go into an 18 cube or its equivalent 

You can get an 18 cube exo terra on amazon for about $100 plus tax and free shipping

 Hope this helps
 :Butterfly:

----------


## Paul

From experience you will want to only put 4 Tincs in a 24wx18dx(whatever hieght). If you want to have more then 4 (up to 6) go with a 36 wide.  A 40g breeder tank makes an excellent d tinc tank and can easily house 4 or more. 

Mantellas are the same as tincs, will spend the vast majority of their time on the ground so the same foot prints apply. 


The types of frogs you are looking at a 40b sounds right up your ally. Wait until Petco has their $1 a gallon sale and you can pick the tank up for an easy $40. This will give you more money to spend on the inside of the tank. Other than the frogs the plants will be the most expensive part of the tank. For the lid of the 40b it is best to just get the standard glass aquarium top and not try to reinvent the wheel. I may or may not have spent $100s of $$$ on the reinventing of the wheel and ended up getting the standard top lol

I recently built a viv in a 55g aquarium and could see 5 or 6 tinc living in it comfortable. You get a good 20" height with 48" across, but it is only 12" deep.

----------


## Paul

Another thing to think about is if the frogs being active and visible in the tank are important to you. Most Mantella will be shy and stay out of site more often than not. Tinc tend to be more active and bold.

----------


## Lynn

Abran,
Wondering which species you decided to get  :Smile:  ?
Keep us posted

----------

AbranV

----------


## AbranV

Thanks for all of the help everyone! I'll keep all of your advice in mind while I shop around. 

Although I still haven't decided on a frog species, I do know that it will only house a pair, maybe three frogs max. I'm leaning towards some type of tinc, mostly due to availability and a somewhat local breeder I know. The mantellas are still high up on the list, but finding non-wild caught frogs is difficult.

I'm in no hurry to get it built and frogs bought. I do have a 10 gallon built and ready to go as a temporary home in case I come across a deal I just can pass up. Its a "practice tank" that I'm basically using as a greenhouse right now, but can easily house a pair of froglets for a little bit. Like I mentioned before, I'm in no rush. I'll keep everyone posted as things develop.

----------


## bill

Oh just grow a pair and pick a species already!! Lol seriously though, a lot will depend on how you build your tank, especially for mantella. Paul's M. betsileo were shy and secretive, mine were bold and always out in the open. My M. Baroni were a mix. I believe that a lot depends on the planting and design of the tank. 

Personally, I have a pretty good mix of frogs now, and my favorites are my tincs and my Terribillis, but the leucs are fighting hard for that top spot. All of them are bold, and visible   And even if they are a terrestrial frog, it doesn't mean you can't build them a talk tank and fill it with plants. Of course they prefer a lot of floor space, but in a taller tank, that gives you the floor for them and the walls for you. Epiphytes, ferns, orchids growing on the walls with no fears of frogs trampling them  :Wink:  the world is your oyster, you just gotta make your own pearl  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## bill

I also want to add. You mentioned having a local breeder. If you can convince him to sell you tadpoles, that would give you a lot more time to build. But it's more than that. I was very fortunate to have Lynn gift me my mint tads (and my variabillis tads), and i'll tell you what, raising those tads and watching them grow has been the most rewarding experience I have had in this hobby. I mean, a lot of dart keepers raise tads to sell, but to raise the ones you will look at everyday and have that connection to, it is very cool, to say the least.  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## AbranV

Bill.....I can't grow a pair, but I think I can sneak my old ones out of my wife's purse! LOL

The stars have aligned and I happened to find another local breeder, so we'll see where that leads me. 

I hear you on raising them from tads. Both my PCF's and bullfrog were tadpoles, and watching them grow has been very rewarding for me. 

So rewarding that its driven me insane enough to join this cult....sorry, I mean this forum   :Wink:

----------


## bill

Hahaha! I like Abran! Can we keep him? Lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## AbranV

There's a fine line between "keep" and "stuck with" and I'll tiptoe that line for all its worth. 

So be careful what you ask for....

----------


## AbranV

On a more serious note. I've been in contact with a new breeder and he has ranitomeya imitator Varadero, leuc tadpoles, and some others he's trying to breed currently.

To be honest, thumbnails have always been at the top of my list, but I've been apprehensive because I've heard they're not a good frog for a beginner. Now this guy has them fifteen minutes away? 

Are thumbnails really that difficult?

What if I buy a dart frog poster with all of the species including mantellas, close my eyes, and play "pin the tail on the frog"?  

Or I can take the poster, lay it on the floor and let my PCF's jump and whichever frogs they land on are my two choices?

Or like Bill said "just grow a pair, and pick a frog"

----------


## bill

Looking over your list of tanks to use, I, personally, would go with the 36 bow with a trio or quarter of leucs. It would be stunning!! The tank sizes you listed would all be too big for thumbs IMHO. They aren't necessarily hard to keep. They are just so tiny, you may never see them in a big tank. And they are serious escape artists, I found out the hard way  :Frown:  


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

----------


## AbranV

> Abran,
> Wondering which species you decided to get  ?
> Keep us posted


Alrighty then. After careful consideration, many sleepless nights, a few beers, and many, many posts with questions asked.

I'm proud to announce that the decision has been made*

My frog of choice will be a pair of....drum roll please........ R. Imitator "Varadero"**

They shall be housed in either a 10 vert conversion. 20 vert conversion, or 12x12x18 Exo/Zoo Med tanks.(opinions on size welcomed) 

Thumbnails have always been at the top of my list, but was always apprehensive due to inexperience. After going through my list, I just kept coming back to these guys. With all of the advice I've received here(thanks to you all) I feel that I can care for these frogs.

Thanks again,
Abran

----------


## AbranV

I forgot to mention in the above post. I would like to start with a pair, but possibly add 1 or 2 more. That said, what would be the best tank size for me from the tanks listed above?

----------


## PubFiction

I would suggest you get an 18x18x24, at least. The main reason is that extra height is really nice in almost all situations because it gives you more flexibility with plants.  18 inch or smaller vivariums just really restrict you to very short plants. I have seen people with 3 tinctorius in 18x18 foot print vivariums and an 18x18x24 will also house a group of thumbnails. That said going with a 24x18x24 would be even better.

----------


## AbranV

> I would suggest you get an 18x18x24, at least. The main reason is that extra height is really nice in almost all situations because it gives you more flexibility with plants.  18 inch or smaller vivariums just really restrict you to very short plants. I have seen people with 3 tinctorius in 18x18 foot print vivariums and an 18x18x24 will also house a group of thumbnails. That said going with a 24x18x24 would be even better.


I have a 29 gallon with the front broken out. I've tossed around the idea of getting another during the  PETCO sale. Then taking the front off and attaching it on top some how. This would give me something like a 30lx18wx24h footprint.

I've also thought about Frankensteining two 20 gallon longs into a 24x16 cube

----------


## AbranV

> I would suggest you get an 18x18x24, at least. The main reason is that extra height is really nice in almost all situations because it gives you more flexibility with plants.  18 inch or smaller vivariums just really restrict you to very short plants. I have seen people with 3 tinctorius in 18x18 foot print vivariums and an 18x18x24 will also house a group of thumbnails. That said going with a 24x18x24 would be even better.


I have a 29 gallon with the front broken out. I've tossed around the idea of getting another during the  PETCO sale. Then taking the front off and attaching it on top some how. This would give me something like a 30lx18wx24h footprint.

I've also thought about Frankensteining two 20 gallon tanks into a 24x16 cube

----------

