# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  Our frog hasn't been eating, then had odd tensing episode after bath

## Joe

Summary:  Our frog, J.T., usually eats every other day but has had little to no appetite the past 5 days or so.  The last time I tried to feed her, she spit out the superworm and worked her mouth.  Her tongue was visible at the side of her mouth.  We thought she might need to use the restroom, so we gave her a honey bath then a bath without the honey to rinse it off.  As we picked her up out of the second bath and I was looking at her front leg for nuptial pads, she tensed.  My fiancé likened her reaction to a seizure without tremors.  I describe the episode in greater detail in #15

We're a little concerned about her appetite, but the episode tonight was terrifying, and we haven't been able to figure out what it is so far.  We want to figure out what's going on and prevent it from happening again.

1. Size of enclosure  - 20 gallon, in the process of moving her into a 10-gallon tonight

2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences:  Just J.T.

3. Humidity:  approximately 80%

4. Temperature:  daytime, 75-79, nighttime approximately 75.

5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish:  dechlorinated water (using brita filter) to expand coconut fiber and for water dish (she doesn’t go in it), distilled water for misting.

6. Materials used for substrate – coconut fiber (this was on top of a single layer of hydro balls and a layer of mesh over them.  We live in the desert southwest, so losing humidty is a problem, so we poured water on the hydro balls to make sure there’s sufficient moisture in the vivarium.  The new cage has deeper coconut fiber, but no hydro balls.  I mist her twice a day now, which is sufficient to keep the humidity up.

7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
_- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv. –_ 2 of the plastic hanging plants made by exo-terra or a similar company.  We put them in corners of the vivarium to give her a little cover.  She likes to hide just backed into one.  Rinsed them in dechlorinated water prior to putting in tank.  Also have a decorative skull in the back of the larger tank as decoration.  It was also made for terrariums, don’t recall the brand.

8. Main food source – have recently been feeding superworms, perhaps for the last 3-4 weeks.  We feed her a thawed pinkie every 1-2 weeks.  We have occasionally fed her a small dubia, but only a total of about 4 or 5 total.  Prior to the superworms, we fed mostly crickets. 

9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often) -- We dust the worms with as much calcium+d3 and vitamin powder as will stick (which isn’t a ton) 1-2 times per week.  She eats approximately every other day, so it averages every feeding to every other feeding.  The pinkie holds the powder better, so that’s where she gets the significant intake of calcium/vitamins.

10. Lighting – no direct lighting over her vivarium, but we have a 5-arm floor lamp with CFL bulbs that provide ambient light approximately half the day. (It’s about 4 feet from her, and behind a wall-mounted tv so it’s not too glaring.)

11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure.  - We have 2 UTHs for her.  One was for about  a 10-gallon tank, the other was listed as a micro UTH that we added to supplement the heat.  Both are in the back left corner of the tank.

12. When is the last time he/she ate – 3 days ago.  Ate a couple super worms.  Prior to that, she ate about 5 days ago, and was eating 5-10 at a time.

13. Have you found poop lately – approximately 5 days ago.

14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine) - I am having issues getting a picture to upload.  They were on my phone, so I emailed them to myself, then adjusted the width/height so they fit the requirements, but I can't get them to upload in .jpg or .png format.  I keep getting the error 'Today.png - This is not a valid image file.' 
She generally looks good. We don't notice anything out of the ordinary with her appearance.

15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area.  – She hasn’t had much appetite recently.  I tried to feed her a superworm yesterday morning.  She grabbed it, held the first bit in her mouth for 10-15 seconds, then spit it out.  Her tongue was visible on the left side of her mouth for a minute or two.  She looked like she had something somewhat hard in her belly on her left side yesterday, but we didn’t notice anything today.  We decided to give her a honey bath today in case she had to poop.  Chin depth, warm (~85 degree) water with 2-3 drops of honey in a small tote (7” wide x 14” long.  Kept her in it for about 15 minutes (she peed immediately, but no poop), then picked her up and replaced the water with fresh warm water without honey and did another soak in that.  Our last step was we were going to gently pour water over her to get some of the dried skin off her face—near nostrils.  When my fiancé picked her up that last time –before we poured any water, she suddenly tensed.  Her legs went straight back and she closed her eyes tightly and her body was rigid.  She opened her eyes and her pupils were dilated— completely black, none of the gold around her eye was visible. She started opening and closing her mouth rapidly, and her tongue was visible on the left side of her mouth.  She didn’t make any sounds during this process.  When her body stopped tensing, she was still opening and closing her mouth another 20-30 seconds, and her eyes still appeared bulged.  The entire episode lasted about 1-2 minutes.

16. How old is the frog – about 6-7 months

17. How long have you owned him/her – about 5 months

18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred – captive bred

19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats – mostly superworms, with pinkies as treats.  After reading the forums, we are planning to switch to mostly nightcrawlers soon.

20. How often the frog is handled – rarely.  We feed by tongs every other day or so, but pick her up only when working on her cage.

21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area – low traffic.  She’s near the door of our computer room.  No traffic from 8pm – 7am, then I mist her around 7am.  After that, usually no traffic till 3pm, then we are mostly in the room till 8pm.

22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc):  - we pick up poo whenever we see it.  Replace the coconut fiber about once per month, sometimes switching the stuff in the corner where she tends to hang out every few weeks.

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## Jason

Hey

When horned frogs refuse food it's usually because they're not warm enough. I would take the heat mats off the wall, they're useless this way and probably what's the problem. A low-wattage heat lamp is a better choice and try raising the temps a few degrees.

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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## Cory

Hello, sorry to hear your frog isn't feeling well. Your temps do need to come up abit but by the sounds of things this isn't because of heat, if it was temps that was making him not want to eat it would have effected him awhile ago if your temps have always been the same. But again your temps should come up to the mid or low 80's for daytime temp and the temps you have now are more of night time temps. I would keep the biggest UTH on the side for the night time heat and get a low wattage bulb for the day. This way at night you can turn off the light and have the UTH heater stay on so it doesn't get to cold. As Jason mentioned they aren't the greatest for a main source of heat when attached to the side because it will only raise the temps a couple degrees, and for these types of frogs its just not normal to them to have heat comeing from underneath them. 

 By the sounds of his diet it almost sounds like he has way to much fat intake which is not good for him and if he hasn't been getting the right amounts of other nutrients it could cause him to have seizures and other problems. The pinkies are high in fat and so are the superworms, switching to night crawlers or even the dubias would be a lot better for him. Another thing by the sounds of his eyes being very dialated is he could have contracted a parasite from a feeder, more then likely the crickets if this is the case. If you think either of these could be the cause I would bring him to a vet, if it is a parasite ( like worms or something ) you are going to need some meds to help him out. 

  If the lump on his side is still there you can always give him another honey bath, sometimes this always doesn't work the first night and if has just stopped eating in the past few days as you said it could be that he just has a bad impaction. But out of all honesty the seizure is making me think something else is wrong and IMO when your frog starts doing doing things like seizures its time no matter what to bring him to a vet.

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## Joe

Thank you both for your replies.  I have called a local vet recommended  by a friend, and have an appointment in about 5 hours.  I tried to feed  her a smaller dubia this morning, then a superworm since I know she  likes them, but she didn't eat either.

Jason:  I'm afraid i was  unclear on the uth last night, I was freaking out a little and didn't  notice the wording was bad.  In JT's old tank, both the heaters were on  adhered under the tank in the back corner. (in this smaller tank, the  big one is on the bottom, and the small one is adhered to the side.) In  retrospect, i'm sure that temperature was too low in the old tank due to  the layer or hydroballs.  I was so concerned about losing too much  water that I didn't think about how that extra layer would make it  harder to raise the temp.  In the new tank with just cocofiber  substrate, it was noticably wamer this morning.  All my thermometers are  intended for air contact, but my best guess would be that the top of  the coconut was around 80 and when she buried herself partway, the temp  by her belly was around 83-85. I will try to pick up a thermal  thermometer this evening to get a better read on temp.  My concern  before was with self regulation.  In the old tank, JT was sometimes on  top of the UTH, and other times she moved perhaps 8-10 inches from it to  the cooler section.  I think I got it in my head that she needed to be  able to move from the heat like my geckos do, but that's not necessary  for pacmans as long as the temps are in the right range, correct?

Cory:   When I checked on JT this morning, she was on top of the UTH that's  under the tank.  she was not fully buried, but maybe halfway down, and  the temp was definitely higher.  My plan is to hit up our local pet  store for some night crawlers after the vet appointment. It still might indicate a parasite, but her pupils dilated only for the duration of her  episode. Our geckos were eating the same food--both crickets and  superworms, and I haven't noticed any problems with them, but i'm almost hoping it's a parasite  because that seems like it might be an easier thing to fix and get her  back to normal.  On the bright side, i felt her abdomen this morning and  didn't feel any masses.  I don't see any poop, but hopefully if she had  something in there, the honey bath worked.  

I will look for a  low wattage heat bulb this evening and change the setup to an overhead  low wattage bulb as you both suggested, and put the larger heat pad on  the side.  Thanks again for your help

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## Jason

Hi

When using heat mats under tank it is critical to monitor temperatures directly above the mat (under the substrate) as this is where the frog will burrow down. If you monitor the temps of the surface then below the surface is going to be much warmer. It is also *very important* that heat mats are controlled by a thermostat, especially when used for burrowing species. Like the thermometer probe, the thermostat probe should be used under the substrate for direct control of the mat. An incandescent is preferred and the method cory suggested with putting the mat on the wall for night does work as then the frog will be out on the surface and active to use it

Keep us updated on your frog, hope it's okay

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## Jason

Forgot to answer your question: yes a thermal gradient is required. Mats or lights should only cover half of the surface max

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monster

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## Cory

Hi again, glad to hear you got an appointment with the vet. When they start going into seizures like this its a safe bet they need a vet, and your lucky to catch it right away before the problem gets worse. For the eyes I read that wrong, I thought you meant his were always dialated. For the heat matt on the bottom I would just take it off and use the overhead lighting and keep the other one on the side for nighttime heat. Even though its suggested to be ok in my eyes this is only if you have no other options. It is very unnatural for them, they bury to cool off not to get warm. I know you said you were going to put it on the side just thought I would throw in there in case you were thinking about leaving on the bottom. And again if you could get him on lower fatty diet it would be very beneficial for him, lots of people will do pinkies once month and use the nightcrawlers/ dubias/ crickets as a staple. And one more thing now that I think about it, when did you move him from the old tank to this one. If it was just before this happened the eating could just be stress from the move and hes needing time to adjust, just know if that would cause him to have a mild seizure.

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## Joe

Hey guys, wanted to update you on the vet appt.  So apparently the calcium +d3 and wasn't enough, and she's in the early stages of metabolic bone disease.  The vet saw evidence of rubber jaw, the pain from which appears to be what was causing her to tense up.  (she had another episode today when I tried to give her food slightly before the appt.  she spit it out, then tensed up.)  She's back from her travel cage into the 10 gallon, with a Reptisun bulb a little above her cage.  I also picked up a thermometer with a probe, so I can measure surface temps, and it's keeping it between 84 and 85 degrees.  She's going to be getting that during the daytime, and I've attached a UTH to the side of the tank to regulate night time temps.  We picked up some red wigglers today, and will be trying to get her to eat those since they're a bit softer than the other things.  She had a few superworms a couple days ago, but if we can't get her to eat something in the next several days, we're going to follow up with the vet.  He said a week or so was a comfortable amount of time before we had to address her not eating.  

The plan in a month or so when she's hopefully feeling better is to stick with a mix of earthworms, dubias, and crickets, with an occasional mealworm and maybe a pinkie every 3-4 weeks or so as a treat.  We also changed the gutloading food for the feeders.  We were using a gutloading gel, but picked up fluker's high calcium cricket diet today on the vet's recommendation.  I'm not sure as to the reasoning, but I figured it couldn't' hurt.

As for the tank change, we were actually in the process of doing that last night when she had the episode.  We had the 10-gallon prepped and ready, but she hadn't been in it when it happened.  

Thank you both for all your help.  I learned several things I didn't know, and can now get her on the way to recovery.

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## Firebellyman

Glad everything worked out I have had problems like this before and in my experience I ussually just cut out the fatty foods I would recommend not feeding the pinkys at all if you have some left from a pack use them up and after that I would stop using them all together I haven't given one to any of my frogs for a very long time and they all are happy i would try to get it onto the dubia roaches as a staple if you have them available to you hope everything turns out ok

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## Cory

Hi, glad to hear you were able to figure out what was wrong. And hopefully catching it this early he will be ok. Just a little note, you may want to avoid the red wigglers and stick with Canadian nightcrawlers. The red wigglers secrete this yellow stuff and it taste like garbage to the frog and a lot of them after eating one of these will go off worms all together. Some frogs are ok with them and others not, and another thing you could give every couple weeks as a treat is Hornworms. They love these things, my guys really perk up with excitement when they see that these are on the menu. Hope everything works out for you and keep us posted.

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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## Joe

Thank you, I'll look at my local pet shop tonight and see if they have canadian nightcrawlers available.  They have a lot of different feeders, so hopefully they'll be able to hook me up.  Because they appear a bit bigger and she’s having the jaw issues, I’m planning to cut a smaller piece off one end of one of them to try to entice her.  I am grateful to you guys lending me your expertise and helping me get her environment/diet up to snuff. 

Update on JT:  Kept the reptisun on her till about 8:30pm last night-only about 3.5 hours.  Because it’s a bigger bulb, we have it about 1.75 feet from the substrate, and only about half the bulb is over the terrarium.  Surface temps were staying right at about 84.2 degrees on the warm side of the tank.  We moved her into the bedroom to a stand in the corner, since it’s one of the quieter/temperature stable places in the house.  Our AC is set to 75, but surface temps this morning were hovering right around 70 degrees, so I’ll be doing some adjusting so that night time temps are a couple degrees higher.   She was about ¾ buried, and wasn’t interested in food, but I’ll try again this evening with nightcrawlers.  I turned on the heat light at around 7:30 am, and my fiancé is planning to turn it off around 4 (vet recommended about 8 hours of the bulb per day for now.)

I wish I’d found this site first when I started researching frogs.  I try to be thorough before I add any pet to our household, but the information available for these guys in particular can sometimes be confusing or even contradictory for a novice like me.  I didn’t have the experience to tell the difference between a well-informed care guide and something less reliable.  Just for heat and light issues, some recommended no heating at all if the ambient temp was 72-85--though upper 70s to early 80s was listed as a better range.  Others recommend the UTHs and no bulb because of the drying affect a heat lamp could have.  Everything you guys have said about the heat bulb make much more sense, and I feel a bit silly for not thinking that heat below a burrowing animal would probably be the wrong thing to do.  I'm bummed that she's not doing well and it's because of our care regimen, but I’m hopeful that we can correct it since it was caught relatively early.  Thanks again for all the help, I really appreciate everyone sharing their experience.

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## Cory

Just be patient and keep trying the food, eventually his hunger will take over and he will eat. When cutting the nightcrawlers try and feed the bottom half first, this way if he doesn't eat both pieces you can put the head end back it will keep living.

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## Joe

Just a quick update.

When we were getting ready for bed last  night, we noticed JT's right eye was shut, and looked like it had a  little gunk at the bottom of the lid.  We called the vet and took her in  for a recheck, (our normal vet is off today,  this was another  reptile/amphibian vet in the practice) and after checking her out  thoroughly again, he agreed that we caught the metabolic bone disease  early, which bodes well for her recovery.  Unfortunately, she's got an  infection in her eye, but it's pretty easy to treat.  He gave us 2  antibiotics: ceftazidime and gentamicin.  The second is a broad-spectrum  eye drop and is super easy to apply.  He explained in detail the uses  and reasons for both, but I can't remember what he said about the  Ceftazidime.  Poor froggy gets a shot of ceftazidime in a leg every  other day for a few days, but hopefully she'll be right as rain soon.   Her current weight is 116.9 grams, and he said that as long as she's  eating by early to mid-next week she shouldn't need any more  intervention.  A nice quick and thankfully inexpensive trip.  

Thanks  again for all the assistance, she is our first frog and we're still  very inexperienced, and we appreciate being able to share her issues  with you guys so we could get her all fixed up.

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## Firebellyman

So happy it ended up with you any other kid and the mom would throw it in the garbage and say it's at a farm Eye drops don't sound fun I hate them but who knows frogs love moisture right it may not eat for a while after eye drops out of stress if he dosent eat for too long ask a reptile vet about force feeding diets the horn worms are a good idea if you have access to them I sadly don't but they are bright and wriggle a lot two of the frogs favs right glad you have a great reptile vet near you good luck

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## Joe

Thank you.  We have one exotic store in town that carries hornworms, but they're hard to come by this time of year because of our high temperatures.  She's had a couple of them a month or two back, and she really seemed to love them, so we're definitely gonna keep an eye out and grab some again when their available.

(Hopefully) final update for this illness:  JT's had a week of the reptisun now, and the tank is up to around 84-85 during the day.  She's had her daily eyedrop for about 4 days, and we've given her one of the shots in the butt (ok, actually leg), which she took like a champ.  Until today she had no interest in food.  About 5 minutes ago, my fiance tried to give her a giant mealworm and she ate it.  First thing she's eaten in nearly 2 weeks.  (not superworm.  It's not going to be a primary foodsource for her, but we know she likes them and we had some for our leopard geckos.)  She's still trying to get JT to eat more, but at least she's eating again and isn't doing the tensing thing.  :Smile: 

As for the eyedrops, you might be right, Firebellyman.  It's been 4 of 5 days so far, and she's finally getting used to them.  Pacman frogs often have an unamused expression, but she definitely wasn't amused that we were fiddling with her eye  :Wink: 

Thanks all

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