# Frogs & Toads > Tree Frogs >  Whites tree frog nose rubbing

## XmusJaxonFlaxonWaxon

Hey guys, this is my first time posting on this forum, so bear with me here. Lately my two White's Tree frogs have been exhibiting very unusual behavior. During the day, they are perfectly content sleeping in their cave or the branches. However, at night they constantly try to jump at the glass, resulting in them hitting their face. They also try to push through the glass, which had given them light-brownish marks on their noses. Not only that, but they are barley eating. They will most of the time refuse any food I try to give them, and only eat occasionally. Any time I take their dish out to clean it, they start flipping out like I'm going to kill them. I have had them for years and they have never acted like this. Any thoughts on what could be happening? Thanks! (If someone could quickly help, that would be great. I'm worried for these guys.)

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## Lija

welcome to the forum! we will try to help you, it appears your frogs are very stressed out.
 please answer to "trouble in the enclosure" questions and we'll go from there. pic of the frogs and enclosure would be very helpful as well.

1-size of enclosure
2-# on inhabitants - specifically ( if there is another frog ---size differences ?)
3-humidity
4-temp
5-water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6-materials used for substrate
7-enclosure set up i.e. plants( live or artificial) wood, bark etc -how were things prepared prior to being put into the viv
8-main food source
9-vitamins and calcium ? ( how often )
10-lighting 
11-what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12-when is the last time he ate
13-have you found poop lately
14-a pic would be great ( including the frog ) any little cell phone pic is fine
15- how old is the frog 
16-how long have you owned him
17- is the frog wild caught or captive bred
18- frog food- how often and if its diverse what other feeders are used as treats
19- about how often the frog is handled 
20-is the enclosure is kept in a high or low traffic area

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## Heather

Hi Xmus,

If you can answer these questions ^ for us we can help to determine why they may be acting differently.

Also, has there been any recent changes around them outside the tank as in more traffic, other pets near the tank or kids, change in area they are in, etc.?

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## XmusJaxonFlaxonWaxon

> welcome to the forum! we will try to help you, it appears your frogs are very stressed out.
>  please answer to "trouble in the enclosure" questions and we'll go from there. pic of the frogs and enclosure would be very helpful as well.
> 
> 1-size of enclosure
> 2-# on inhabitants - specifically ( if there is another frog ---size differences ?)
> 3-humidity
> 4-temp
> 5-water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
> 6-materials used for substrate
> ...


1-18x18x20
2- 2 male frogs, same size. no history of fighting or monopoly over food
3- humidity remains a constant 50-60 using reptifogger
4- temp is slightly above room temp during the day, room temp during night
5-misting/fogging uses distilled, water in dish is dechlorinated tap water
6-substrate is coconut fiber substrate (eco earth)
7-not a vivarium, no false bottom. (picture below)
8-main food source is dubia roaches
9-vitamins and calcium have been provided every few days for the past few months
10- a 25 watt daylight bulb, low wattage uvb bulb
11-the daylight bulb provides some heat during the day
12-the one in the picture ate one roach yesterday, not sure if the other one ate the crickets i put in there
13-yes
14-(pic below)
15-not really sure, but they are adults
16-over 5 years, not sure
17-not sure
18-mostly dubias w/ crickets every so often
19-almost never, only when cage is being cleaned out
20-very high traffic area, but its always been that way.

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## XmusJaxonFlaxonWaxon

> Hi Xmus,
> 
> If you can answer these questions ^ for us we can help to determine why they may be acting differently.
> 
> Also, has there been any recent changes around them outside the tank as in more traffic, other pets near the tank or kids, change in area they are in, etc.?


Nope, no real changes. I re arranged their terrarium, but I have redone it a few times and they have never reacted like this.

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## Lija

I'm on a run, so be short.
 tank is too small, humidity is too low, 3 sides of the tank are not covered + very high traffic. that is why they are so stressed out. weird though that you're saying you have them for 5 years only now they started to behave like that. in these conditions they should have started doing so a very long time ago. have they always been so brown?
 would you please take some more clear pic of a frogs (both).

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## XmusJaxonFlaxonWaxon

> I'm on a run, so be short.
>  tank is too small, humidity is too low, 3 sides of the tank are not covered + very high traffic. that is why they are so stressed out. weird though that you're saying you have them for 5 years only now they started to behave like that. in these conditions they should have started doing so a very long time ago. have they always been so brown?
>  would you please take some more clear pic of a frogs (both).


I'll take some pics later when they're out. It's very strange because I've changed their habitat multiple times and they have never reacted this way. At first, they loved this setup. Now they're acting weird.

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## Brian

Have you had any major thunderstorms or incoming thunderstorms during this erratic behavior? I don't have a whites, but my other tree frogs sometimes go batty on stormy nights.

Do cover up the sides, or possibly even the entire tank when they are acting up so the glass no longer looks like a way out.

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## XmusJaxonFlaxonWaxon

> Have you had any major thunderstorms or incoming thunderstorms during this erratic behavior? I don't have a whites, but my other tree frogs sometimes go batty on stormy nights.
> 
> Do cover up the sides, or possibly even the entire tank when they are acting up so the glass no longer looks like a way out.


That might be a good idea. I again have no idea why they are doing this, as it was just all of the sudden. No storms or anything like that.

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## XmusJaxonFlaxonWaxon

Now they are eating, but still scraping their nose against the glass. Any fixes for this?

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## Lija

can you take a clear picture of a frogs and their noses please.

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## XmusJaxonFlaxonWaxon

> can you take a clear picture of a frogs and their noses please.





Best I can get at the moment. The other one is sleeping in the cave.

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## Lindsey

Hi,
I haven't been on the FF for a long time, and just peeked in to see what was on with treefrogs...
Nothing really stands out to me as a huge caution.  Good your going to cover the sides of the tank, this will help them to feel more secure.
Their color is very dark, the only time I've seen this dark color in my white's, was when he was sick (although he is typically a brownish shade).  Are your white's usually such a deep, dark brown?
Have you checked for parasites or protozoa infection?  They can tolerate infections for some time, but then one day it can become a real problem and they'll exhibit strange behavior and color.
Your temps could go a little higher during the day (about 82 F) and slightly higher at night (about 75 F), this may help.
Anything else you can think of?  Chemicals in house, new pets or children making new and unfamiliar noises?  A/C that may be vvented above tank?  Anything at all?

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## XmusJaxonFlaxonWaxon

> Hi,
> I haven't been on the FF for a long time, and just peeked in to see what was on with treefrogs...
> Nothing really stands out to me as a huge caution.  Good your going to cover the sides of the tank, this will help them to feel more secure.
> Their color is very dark, the only time I've seen this dark color in my white's, was when he was sick (although he is typically a brownish shade).  Are your white's usually such a deep, dark brown?
> Have you checked for parasites or protozoa infection?  They can tolerate infections for some time, but then one day it can become a real problem and they'll exhibit strange behavior and color.
> Your temps could go a little higher during the day (about 82 F) and slightly higher at night (about 75 F), this may help.
> Anything else you can think of?  Chemicals in house, new pets or children making new and unfamiliar noises?  A/C that may be vvented above tank?  Anything at all?


That particular frog has been that color since the day we got them (several years ago.) The other one is a very light green. Day temps are good, about 77-82 during day, 70-75 at night. No new pets near them, no chemicals, etc. conditions have been the same for months now, and all of the sudden they started doing this. I have had a mushroom problem that started just two days ago, but they've been acting like this longer. 
This just sprouted today. Could the mushrooms be a cause of anything?

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## Lindsey

I don't know about mushrooms?  As far as I understand, they are fine.
Something has had to change for this new behavior.  Perhaps crickets from a new vendor?  New dusting powder?  Different water conditioner?
You said in post #4 "4- temp is slightly above room temp during the day, room temp during night."  In my world, slightly above room temp is like 75 F, I'm sorry I mis-understood.
Still, 70 at night is too far a drop from 82, drop should not be so significant.  use a UTh on side wall of tank (maybe) at night to just bump the heat up slightly.
You don't want a 12 degree shift in temps, ever.  This is very stressful.  So difference between day and night temps should be about 7 degrees.
Can I see pics of your other white's?

***Also, you didn't answer in regard to testing for parasites or protozoa...

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## XmusJaxonFlaxonWaxon

> I don't know about mushrooms?  As far as I understand, they are fine.
> Something has had to change for this new behavior.  Perhaps crickets from a new vendor?  New dusting powder?  Different water conditioner?
> You said in post #4 "4- temp is slightly above room temp during the day, room temp during night."  In my world, slightly above room temp is like 75 F, I'm sorry I mis-understood.
> Still, 70 at night is too far a drop from 82, drop should not be so significant.  use a UTh on side wall of tank (maybe) at night to just bump the heat up slightly.
> You don't want a 12 degree shift in temps, ever.  This is very stressful.  So difference between day and night temps should be about 7 degrees.
> Can I see pics of your other white's?
> 
> ***Also, you didn't answer in regard to testing for parasites or protozoa...


Sorry, I meant 73-75 at night. As far as parasites and Protozoa, I've never had them tested. I don't have any vets that deal with herps nearby. But that's the thing; conditions in the tank haven't changed for a long time, it is cleaned out frequently, kept moist, etc. temps have been the same for years. they have been in worse conditions before and have been fine. However, they all of the sudden have this seemingly inexplicable behavior. No symptoms of any diseases that I know of. I'll get a pic of the other one when he comes out of the cave.

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## XmusJaxonFlaxonWaxon

FINALLY got a pic of the other frog.

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## Lija

this is no good, you have to put both in separate quarantine enclosures and treat ASAP! all walls and bottom have to be covered in wet papertowels and some kind of brunch/plastic plant inside, use 5.0 UVB for both. keep both as clean as you can. having them both in separate enclosures you can also monitor their feeding.
 i very strongly suggest to contact herp vet who works with frogs, if there are none in your area you can contact Dr. Frye ( his contact info in a sticky thread), get poop tested asap. while you're waiting for results I would use original ( without painkillers) polysporine or any other antibiotic cream. make sure it doesn't contain any painkillers!
 nose rubs have to be treated asap and while doing so figure out what caused it. usually when the color is so dark it is indication that frog is not happy, it may be due to environment or parasites/protozoa and other inside problems. in a lot of cases it all is being complicated with stress, that I'm sure was here. they were obviously very resistant to stress levels, most of frogs would be stressed out way way sooner. one way or another noses gotta be treated asap, get both tested and I'd redo the tank ( cover the 3 sides of the enclosure)
the questions i have - how often a tank has being cleaned, how the  routine clean up looked like, how their poop looked like, what percentage UVB are you using and how frequent are you changing the bulb?

 and also make sure that temp and humidity are in correct range day and night.

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## XmusJaxonFlaxonWaxon

Tank is completely torn down and thoroughly cleaned a couple times every month. Poop is normal. Full spectrum lighting is provided for 12 hours everyday. I don't understand what the issue is! They are over 10 years old, and we've had them for well over 5 years, and that one has always been brown. I don't understand what could've happened. Conditions have been the same for a very long time... They are also eating once again. Dubia roaches dusted w/ calcium. They are active, and sleep in branches, on the glass, or on the walls of the cave.

 Temp and humidity are good.

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## Lija

> I don't understand what the issue is. They are over 10 years old, and we've had them for well over 5 years, and that one has always been brown. I don't understand what could've happened. Conditions have been the same for a very long time... They are also eating once again. Dubia roaches dusted w/ calcium.


 that is what we need to figure out, something is obviously is not right and stressing them out. But right now you gotta treat their noses, because untreated it might go to septicemia = death. fecal test gotta be done to rule out possible problem here. and step by step we should get out of all "possible" until we solve the problem. age might be a factor here too, with age body resistance to certain things are going down, same as for any other species I'd think. please don't get offended by questions, I'm trying to check out all points that might have caused this.
 what type of light bulb exactly are you using, what percentage of UVB?

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## XmusJaxonFlaxonWaxon

> that is what we need to figure out, something is obviously is not right and stressing them out. But right now you gotta treat their noses, because untreated it might go to septicemia = death. fecal test gotta be done to rule out possible problem here. and step by step we should get out of all "possible" until we solve the problem. age might be a factor here too, with age body resistance to certain things are going down, same as for any other species I'd think. please don't get offended by questions, I'm trying to check out all points that might have caused this.
>  what type of light bulb exactly are you using, what percentage of UVB?


I'm not getting offended by questions..I'm giving straight up answers. Nothing really has changed! It may just be age, like you said, but I'm not sure. Im worried since i have no clue what the issue is, so i appreciate the help.Bulb is a zoo med reptisun 5.0 UVB. Btw, how would I administer the cream?

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## Lija

that's good then, for not being offended  :Smile:  
 you gotta put them in separate hospital set ups with wet papertowels, keep it all very clean. then get that cream making sure you read all ingredients and it doesn't contain painkillers of any sort and then just put some on a wounds a few times a day.

 light is ok, check mark here too  :Smile:

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## XmusJaxonFlaxonWaxon

> that's good then, for not being offended  
>  you gotta put them in separate hospital set ups with wet papertowels, keep it all very clean. then get that cream making sure you read all ingredients and it doesn't contain painkillers of any sort and then just put some on a wounds a few times a day.
> 
>  light is ok, check mark here too


Ok, thanks for the help! I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can help them out.

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## josh

> Ok, thanks for the help! I'll see what I can do. Hopefully I can help them out.


What ever happened to them. I have a male pair of whites that recently started doing this. What us it

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## Frogger00

> What ever happened to them. I have a male pair of whites that recently started doing this. What us it


Mine have been doing this too. I think it's the time of year(mating season) because I've heard that other people's frogs are doing this too. 


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## irThumper

I wonder how they are now too. One of my males, Honey-Lime, who is likely around a year of age now (2014 spring spawn I believe), is on his 2nd round of weirdness in this way since around the first week in February. He has a female in with him, but there's been no interest in amplexus between the two; the only other females I have cannot be placed in with him, or vice versa, because they are being treated for stronglyoides, so that's not happening. My second male, who is a little guy and hasn't grown hardly at all (he's maybe 1 1/2" as a young adult) is perfectly calm as far as I know, and hasn't been acting strange. He lives by himself right now.

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## BrittsBugs

Okay, to start. Sides covered and top covered. Try a more sterile setup opposed to giving them real plants. Less risk of any illnesses that are plant related. Next, nose running is a behavior exhibited when they're not getting proper vitamins, 12-12 day/night cycle, and improper heat and lighting with WTFs is not highly advised nor is heating lamps, unless your house temperature doesn't sit right for them runs too cold. Also, their are various colors whites come in. They can be both green or blue. As well as an olive green to a bright yellow or neon green. They may also be a dark purple almost black, and lots of white spots are sparse white spots are very common.

Anyone who states otherwise should probably go look at Mike's phat Frogs and Sandfire Dragon Care. Inc

There's also a proper WTF setup on Josh's Frogs.

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## Xavier

> There's also a proper Whites Tree Frog setup on Josh's Frogs.


What about the one here on frog forum?

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## irThumper

Um, y'all know we're posting on a thread that's two years old... right?  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Frogger00

> Um, y'all know we're posting on a thread that's two years old... right?


Lol yup, but I don't think BrittsBugs does...


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## irThumper

Heh, I made the same mistake when I first joined  :Wink:  :Big Grin:

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## BrittsBugs

No, I'm perfectly aware. There's plenty of false information in a lot of misinformation on a number of questions through these forums. Lol, I was too disturbed and irritated at the lack of current information and no updates to any subjects that were of major concern two years ago. To not join and correct much of this unknown mystery knowledge. And many care sheets are riddled with incorrect care information. I joined late at night so I haven't looked it over yet. Hopefully it's much more up to par then any care sheet available via a google search. AUS White's are a very hardy bunch of frogs, but I am fully against the opinion they are a beginners frogs. I have one I took in from a child almost three years ago had worms badly, and seems to have been bred in poor conditions, little guys poor toes are all connected while some fingers appear to be just missing. And the recent plethora of breeders who now possess multiple morphs as well as a huge jump in the price it use to cost to purchase them, that I am glad to see. (: 


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