# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Beginner Discussion >  Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

## sepgundamrg

Hi, after seeing the thread about keeping multiple darts together ina  smaller tank, I would like to ask about keeping them together in a larger tank. I have recently aquired a new tank that is over 160 us. gallons in size. The tank is only 2ft tall and is a large octagon. The internal length of the tank from side to side is 44 inches, and unfortunately I didn't get the length of the individual sides. I got this tank for either a bearded dragon, or a dart frog community. I would love to do darts in it(already gathering supplies such as small tree trunk for the center) but I would like to keep more then just 1 color morph. I have seen large tanks with different colored darts in them before and would like to know the verdict on keeping multiple similar sized species together in this tank. I know it still isn't as large as a forest, but it is definitely larger then the usual vivarium they are kept in.

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## Kurt

Well, the dart frog community will likely chew me out for saying this, but if you insist of multiple types of darts, how about tincs of various colors and markings. At least this way they will be all the same species and you will have variety. There are blues (azureus), Oyapoks, citronellas, powder blues, cobalts, reginas, and so on.

Why the dart frog community frowns upon this is because they do not want any "mutts" mudding up the gene pool. They, like myself are purists. We don't like hybrids and the like. We like things the way nature created them.

Now if I were setting up that tank I would either house blues or Oyapoks in it.

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## sepgundamrg

I read on one dart site after making that post that it was ok to keep different genus of darts together since they cant inter breed, as long as they have the same housing requirements. Whats the boards opinion on this information? by genus I mean d.xxxxx and p.xxxxx

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## Kurt

_Dendrobates_ and _Phyllobates_. Not sure what web site you speak of. In theory, there would be no cross contaminations because captive bred dart frogs are suposedly non toxic. Not sure I 100% buy that. One thing to consider is the fact that a lot of dart frogs are terratorial and thaty could present problems.

Like I said, if it were I that was putting this tank together, I would stick to one species.

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## sepgundamrg

Amphibiancare.com >> Mixing and Keeping Different Species of Reptiles and Amphibians Together




> Certain species of poison dart frogs (Dendrobatids) have been kept together successfully by some hobbyists. Avoid any species that could potentially produce hybrids, instead sticking to dart frogs from different genera such as _Dendrobates azureus_ with _Phyllobates bicolor_.

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## Kurt

Well, that is Devin Edmonds site, so I will support his opinion. He has been working with amphibians longer than me and has published two books, that I know of.

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## JeffX

From my brief interest and study of Dart Frogs it's always been frowned upon.  Doesn't mean it can't be done especially that size of tank.  However I wouldn't do it though.

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## Alex Shepack

If you wanna mix, and I understand the temptation, how about sticking with species that naturally occur together.  Something like Costa Rican species (Dendrobates auratus, Phyllobates lugubris, Oophaga pumilio) not only will they not interbreed, but they are basically from the same habitat.  

Alex

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## sepgundamrg

> If you wanna mix, and I understand the temptation, how about sticking with species that naturally occur together.  Something like Costa Rican species (Dendrobates auratus, Phyllobates lugubris, Oophaga pumilio) not only will they not interbreed, but they are basically from the same habitat.  
> 
> Alex


Thats what I'm wanting to do, they will have the same care requirements and they would have many more colors then just 1 species. As for the species I get, I would only get 1 morph of each.

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## nx2ured

Please do not mix different species of darts especially Tincs as they WILL fight (and you are guaranteed to lose frogs) and will also interbreed. interbreed. Even the Auratus (different color morphs WILL interbreed). Why not just stick to a group of auratus, imitators, leucs, or galacs as they can be kept in groups and will not die from stress if placed into a tank full of various morphs.

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## Wyomingite

Kind of an old topic, but have a query, folks. On a slight variation, can a species of dart frog be mixed in a large vivarium with a tree frog species? This is making the assumption that all stock is from a reliable source, disease free, have similar ambient requirements for humidity, temperature, etc. and will have minimal conflict in daily activities.

FWIW, from a purist fish guy, the potential of hybridization as well as crossbreeding of morphs within a species truly needs to be minimized, especially when dealing with species, subspecies and morphs that may be threatened in the wild. The introduction of DNA from an outside source, whether another species or a color morph of the same species, will alter the genotype, reducing the usefulness of and/or rendering the bloodline useless in later breeding programs. In addition to not having a pure genotype, the resulting offspring may carry recessive traits which may not appear immediately, but may manifest as undesirable or deleterious phenotypic traits in later generations. I've had a similar discussion with many fellow cichlid enthusiasts who see no harm in hybridizing fish that they plan on keeping, and admittedly many hybrids are attractive in their own right. However, if these hybrids are irresponsibly or accidently passed into general circulation, well...entire bloodlines of a species could become lost. Interspecies injection of DNA into a bloodline should only be practiced in the extreme circumstance of a genetic bottleneck in a species, and then should be practiced with caution. 

My hands-on experience is mainly with ungulates and carnivora at a higher level and is a bit out-dated, and with fish as a hobbyist. Not too familiar with Anuran genetics, but I feel safe sayin' that I'm sure plenty of frog and toad hybrids are fertile in the F1 generation.

Not tryin' to irritate anyone, I know an opinionated, know-it-all newb can be a bit irritating. Have had a few at my home site, FWM.  :Wink:  Just wanted to throw some food for thought out there for somethin' I feel strongly 'bout.

WYite

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## Kurt

> Please do not mix different species of darts especially Tincs as they WILL fight (and you are guaranteed to lose frogs) and will also interbreed.


So its kind of like the Jerry Springer Show? Jerry, Jerry, Jerry!

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## Kurt

> Kind of an old topic, but have a query, folks. On a slight variation, can a species of dart frog be mixed in a large vivarium with a tree frog species?


Still not a good idea. Cross contamination comes to mind. Also darts love it humid! Treefrogs require good ventilation. Its hard to imposssible to provide both.

Also I agree 100% on your stand on hybrids. Now we can just get the snake people to feel the same way.

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## Wyomingite

> Still not a good idea. Cross contamination comes to mind. Also darts love it humid! Treefrogs require good ventilation. Its hard to imposssible to provide both.
> 
> Also I agree 100% on your stand on hybrids. Now we can just get the snake people to feel the same way.


Mayhap naivete is showin' here. It seems to me with solid quarantining and good hygiene and maintenance practices that risk of cross contamination between two species within an enclosure wouldn't be any more or less likely than species in adjacent enclosures.  

Hybridization is a fairly common practice in snake husbandry then, I take it? That's too bad.  

WYite

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## Kurt

Hybridization is way to common in snake herpetoculture.

By cross contamination, I mean poisoning and not infection or the spread of diseases and pathogens. Like said earlier, treefrogs and darts have totally two different husbandry requirements. What is good for one, is not good for the other.

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## Wyomingite

Thanks. I picked up the comments on the differences between tree frogs and dart care. I didn't even think of poisoning, I was thinking completely in terms of diseases. :Embarrassment:  Not too common a problem with fish; toxicity in that realm is usually due to envenomation or consumption, rarely due to contact. I can see there is gonna need to be a bit of a paradigm shift  :Smile: .

WYite

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## Kurt

You're welcome.

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## Ra

I've seen it done in zoos, and that famous Discus Breeder, Jack Wattley would house them together in very large display tanks, just not for breeding them ( though he breeds them as well.)
.

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## John Clare

Ra, I've a nice photo of a hybrid of two tinc morphs, photographed in a famous zoo.  Just because zoos do it, it doesn't make it right.  As for keeping different things together, I think most dart frog enthusiasts wouldn't have a problem with mixing different races of tincs _as froglets or juveniles_ but as maturity approaches they would of course be separated.  The same would apply to young auratus and leucomelas.

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## james67

> Well, the dart frog community will likely chew me out for saying this, but if you insist of multiple types of darts, how about tincs of various colors and markings. At least this way they will be all the same species and you will have variety. There are blues (azureus), Oyapoks, citronellas, powder blues, cobalts, reginas, and so on.
> 
> Why the dart frog community frowns upon this is because they do not want any "mutts" mudding up the gene pool. They, like myself are purists. We don't like hybrids and the like. We like things the way nature created them.
> 
> Now if I were setting up that tank I would either house blues or Oyapoks in it.


hello all, i see that this is a pretty old thread, but it seems that more could be said on the topic, and since im bored why not let this be my intro to this site (some of you may know me from DB).

as far as mixed enclosures go, your right kurt, they are highly frowned upon, and generally as one researches more, they come to the same conclusion. however the logic in the statement you made may be based on some misinformation. IF a mixed enclosure in absolutely necessary it is HIGHLY recommended (and for good reason) that different morphs of the same species NOT be used. the problem lies in the frogs ability to interbreed (same species/ different morph). this is the real concern. many morhps are nearly identical and creating hybrids can occur even if the keeper is trying to prevent it. it wouldn't be the first time that someone realized "hey i used to have 5 frogs, now i have 7". at this point the hybrids could potentially blend in with the parents, etc. and that's when breeding is attempted to be suppressed, and all known offspring are culled. 

auratus, leucomelas and tinctorius WILL interbreed as well. they are related closely enough to "do the deed" 

moral is... IF you have to mix PLEASE dont mix morphs. this is the most dangerous type of mixing, not to mention that as another member stated, tincs (in this case)  will battle and it often results in the loss of an animal from stress and starvation.

james  :Smile:

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## Philsuma

> I've seen it done in zoos, and that famous Discus Breeder, Jack Wattley would house them together in very large display tanks, just not for breeding them ( though he breeds them as well.)
> .


When you have a degree in Herpetology, have logged 10 years as a curator of animals at a zoological institution and or have about 100 years experience like Jack....then by all means, have at it.

If you are a newbie and have joined a forum a few months ago and don't even have 2 different species worth of experience under your belt....

If you have to *ask* about mixing....that says it all right there.

Please don't manufacture excuses with bad analogies......

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## Paul Rust

> When you have a degree in Herpetology, have logged 10 years as a curator of animals at a zoological institution and or have about 100 years experience like Jack....then by all means, have at it.
> 
> If you are a newbie and have joined a forum a few months ago and don't even have 2 different species worth of experience under your belt....
> 
> If you have to *ask* about mixing....that says it all right there.
> 
> Please don't manufacture excuses with bad analogies......


Nicely done Phil. It is a pleasure to see you here, I'm positive these people here will love your experience and input. They have been very pleasant to me. WELCOME!!

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## Rukufox

Okay I see this is an old thread but I have another point to be brought up. 
I understand the importance of keeping a bloodline pure, but where would the world be if species never cross breed? There wouldn't be half the species there are to day. Now don't get me wrong, I'm still conserned for the species of each individual frog's needs and such. My point is that whether in nature or captivity two frogs from slightly varying subspecies are prone to cross breed eventually. I don't think she should intentionally try to breed "mutts" but it's not a bad thing if it did happen by chance.

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## IrishRonin

ok so im not saying one way or another on a mixed incloser because i have mixed feeling about that both ways but what I do have to say is if nature has taught us anything-Anything close enough to breed, will breed. On the other hand humans have distroyed enough things on this planet lets not intetionally do more harm.

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## ConVexity

> When you have a degree in Herpetology, have logged 10 years as a curator of animals at a zoological institution and or have about 100 years experience like Jack....then by all means, have at it.
> 
> If you are a newbie and have joined a forum a few months ago and don't even have 2 different species worth of experience under your belt....
> 
> If you have to *ask* about mixing....that says it all right there.
> 
> Please don't manufacture excuses with bad analogies......


Best comment here
straight to the point

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## Rukufox

I'm not trying to be rude I'm just saying that it feels a tad bit ignorant to completely ignore all other possibilities. Like I said before I don't think they should INTENTIONALLY breed mix species, but there is a whole nother world that remains undiscovered when you refuse to even consider it. How many breeds of dog do you think there would be if they never cross bred, really any animal. Cats, fish, birds, lemurs and so on. I'll admit that I am no where near an expert in amphibian care, I understand the importance of keeping a pure bloodline especially in a dying species. I must say though, if Charles Darwin taught us anything it's that life has to evolve it'self to survive.

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## IrishRonin

Long live Darwin! In the words of ian malcolm (jurrasic park) "life will find a way" sorry couldn't help it :Big Grin:

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## SNAKE

You can keep two sepecies togother, ONLY IF the tank is very well planted, good in size, and if the two species are different. 
So a cohabitation is possible with tinctorius azureus for example (wich will occupate the "low" part of the tank) and a represantant of the Ranitomeya genus (wich will occupate the "high" part of the tank).  You see, in this case, there is no possible risk of breedint amoung the two different species.
Note that your tank is not VERY big. It's the average size tank for more than a trio.

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## mmattys30

Can't you just keep all males or am I missing something here.??? As

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## Rukufox

> Can't you just keep all males or am I missing something here.??? As


The main consern of the debate is the cross breeding, but different species have different levels of agression too. Like with fish, it wouldn't be smart to put a whole bunch of males together just because they have a different fin type, they would still tear eachother apart. It would be very important to make sure you don't cross two highly aggressive species together, or even frogs from two completely different habitates at risk of them poisoning eachother with their natural toxins.

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## bren

sorry to butt in here i was enjoying reading this thread as i want same kinda info n the comment about wishin the snake people would stop the hybrids erm im a snake person n i am with you on that natural is the most beautiful am willing to accept now n again something nice come from crossbreeding but 99 percent ov the time its jus wrong

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## Lynn

> sorry to butt in here i was enjoying reading this thread as i want same kinda info n the comment about wishin the snake people would stop the hybrids erm im a snake person n i am with you on that natural is the most beautiful am willing to accept now n again something nice come from crossbreeding but 99 percent ov the time its jus wrong



Hi Bren,
Probably 99.9% of the time.
This is a great - older -thread. I like your response - anyway !  :Smile:  Keep it going!
Personally, I really enjoy my darts just they way they are.  I can not imagine being responsible for crossbreeding.  :Frown: 
It's not like we have a lack of choices. We have ? 225 + species that range in almost every color imaginable.

*Edit*- I'll clarify this by saying that between 99.9 % and 100 % of the time is for the expert trying to save a species !

Welcome to Frog Forum 
Lynn

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## Heather

I'd have to agree. Sometimes cross breeding can lead to bad genes. This has been proven in some pacman mixes.

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## mmattys30

I have a 90x45x90 and keep 6 terribis and 22 tricolours and 2 lowlands and they all live happily together with no problems at all.

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## bill

wow, these threads seem to re-born on every forum related to darts....lol when i first started looking into frogs, i was definitely all for mixing. now, i am kind of on the fence, leaning towards no. 

while many arguments could be made one way or the other, i think the darts purist's point of view is a bit convoluted (i think is the word i am searching for). as i understand it, the point of keeping species blood lines pure because of their declining numbers in the wild, is pure, unadulterated poppycock. IF that were true, then i ask this one question of those people: How many of your frogs have you donated to help restore the species? and i don't mean to just randomly release frogs into the wild, but how many have donated their frogs to conservation programs designed for just that purpose? 

now, the absolute best reasoning i have read, and i truly agree with this stand point, is for quality control. i believe that if a person want to purchase a d. tinc. 'new river', than that is what they should receive. not a hybrid that was advertised to be a new river. the problem lies in irresponsibility of the frog keepers who say "i'm gonna mix, but it's just gonna be for me", which in turn becomes a sale because the owner needs cash. now that hybrid is out there and could possibly contaminate the gene pool of other's collections.

now,i propose this question to purists, Why are you worried about hybrids in the marketplace, don't you purchase your frogs from reputable breeders? i'm sure the purists are NOT buying their frogs off of Juan at the bottom of the off ramp (I got oranges, mangos and Dendrobates!), so exactly how would their gene pool get contaminated?

ok, now as far as fighting and aggression, that should be a no brainer, although it's not to some people. 

i think hybrids DO have a place in this hobby. provided they are bred by experts in the field. i mean come on, who wouldn't want to see their "terrestrial dart" climbing up into the top parts of their tank because they have a bit of Leuc in them. but see, i'm thinking like a beginner in darts (because i am). a lot of people are put off by the shyer species. well, with hybridization, those "pretty blue ones" that are only for the hardcore frogger, will most likely be purchased by someone who will love and care for them, just as if they were pure line. provided of course, if boldness is a trait passed on. THAT is why i said by experts. The average Joe, should not try this at home. but i am also a realist who knows it is happening as i type this.

and last but not least, parasites and toxicity.......well, no arguments from me on that one....LOL

also, may i remind you that i am the person who think it's poppycock that frogs will drown if water is higher than their chin (sick frogs excluded of course), so i may just be full of ****. and just for the record, i am an advocate of single species tanks. i believe you get a more wonderful understanding of your frogs behaviors and habits when they are by themselves.

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## Lynn

I'm thinking, those interested, and who are following this thread and these current posts .... need to read post  #8 
Alex has taken the responsible approach (and response) to mixing if inclined to do so.

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## bill

oh, i definitely agree. and i have seen it done very well by some hobbyists, mostly european. i've also seen darts with anoles and geckos and such. i still wouldn't do it, but it has and can be done. in fact i remember reading a newsletter by LLL Reptile, i believe where they briefly mention housing Leucs and certain species of ranitomeya. but they mostly warn away from it.

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## Geo

While I have no experience mixing dart frog species I have done mixed setups before. My longest running habitat here has oriental fire belly toads, chinese fire belly newts, and american green tree frogs. The Toads and Newts come from very similar biomes / regions so I didn't think there should be any issues. The Green Tree Frogs were a last minute pet shop rescue in which I had nowhere to put them so decided to see what would happen if I added them. I kept an eye on them all for a week and there has never been an issue a year later.

The tree frogs hang out in the top of the habitat in the plants and branches while the toads remain water / land based and the newts the same depending on time of the year. From observation it is clear to me that they are all aware of each other but none of them have ever had any conflicts. I have a lot of branches creating different climbing levels should they want to hang out by themselves for awhile, plants adding foliage for hiding spots, two different land masses and so on. To be honest the tree frogs are only seen at feeding time and many times I have seen the newts sleeping on top of the toads so no problems. 

I generally wouldn't recommend mixing unless you are willing to spend a certain amount of time in the beginning to watch for any problems. You would need to be diligent for a few weeks until they relax a bit and their natural tendencies start to show. That is when things may get interesting.

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## DartEd

I'm a purist when it comes to this issue.  Totally putting aside crossbreeding, the aggression and stress that can be attributed to certain species of darts is enough to scare me into keeping different species apart.  We have to keep in mind that we are all in this hobby because we love the species we choose to keep and want to see the species advance and proliferate. I don't think I'm out of line to assume that no one in this thread wants to see an animal suffer. My opinion is , why take the chance?

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## Heather

I have to agree with DartEd. As much as I'd love to keep a rainbow of frogs together, the risks outweigh the benefits. Being they are so small it's not hard to have more than one tank if you desire more. Or, build a large tank with a siliconed glass divider.

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