# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Beginner Discussion >  Have many questions. New to dart frogs.

## Eli

It's official. I'm going to build a dart frog vivarium! :Smile:  i have already ordered the substrate material, the screen top, and a couple decorations. My question is, well i have many so i will make a list: (i read your construction forum, Bill, it has been very helpful so far!)
1. What humidity level do they need? I have heard as high as 100 percent and as low as 60.
2. My tank is 36x12x16 inches. How many can i have in there? Keeping in mind there is a few inches of substrate. But first what species are good for that size? And how many will be happy in there. 
3. Is mixing species a good idea at all? I don't want them to be uncomfortable. If so, what species are good to
mix?
4. How do i keep the temp below 80? It gets hot in the summer even in upstate NY.
5. What plants would thrive in the level of humidity they need?
thanks for all the help in advance! If i get more questions i will add them. Obviously some questions wont be able to be finite until i decide on the species.

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## Eli

Any body at all??


The Frog chooses its owner. Treat your life-long friend with respect and care and it will never disappoint!

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## Paul

I'll do my best while we wait for the experts to wake up and check on all us kids  :Smile: 

1. The humidity really depends on the frog, but in general Darts want the humidity to be between 70% and 100%. Some darts prefer it to be on the low end while others thrive closer to 100%. 

2. Again this depends on the type of Dart you end up selecting. That tank does not have a lot of vertical space so you will want to get some frogs that would prefer to stay on the substrate. One thing to keep in mind (I know from experience). The low height of your tank will greatly hurt the plants you decide to put in the tank (assuming you are doing a live plant tank). I have a similar size tank I had setup for Mantellas, but the low ceiling height (which turned out to be more like 12" one you build the drainage layer/false bottom and add on soil) Most of my plants suffered from this and slowly died off or it stunted their growth. 

3. In general I am opposed to mixing species. Especially if you think you might be breeding them. I operate under the rule of housing all of one kind of frog together. 

4. You can do a few things. First I find it better to heat my dart tanks with an aquatic heater (the heat from the water heats the air). During the sumer months if your ambient temp of the room the frogs are in is in the mid 70's than you could unplug the heater and let the glass warm the water and the air. A large part of this will be up to how much ventilation you have in your tank. Most darts don't require much if any ventilation. I usually creat a 1 - 2" vent along the front of the tank to keep the viewing area from fogging up to bad, but with 80+% humidity keeping it totally clear will prove to be near impossible. 

5. Bill is our resident plant expert. There are a lot of plants that work well in terrariums. Bromeliads, Begonias, Pothos, ferns, Snake Plants, and many more. If you go to joshsfrogs.com or neherpaculture.com and look at the plants they sale it will give you a good idea.

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## Amy

Zero dart experience here, but good luck, Eli.  Keep us updated on your progress.  I love anyone who does research and asks for experiences before they buy.  Eventually I will get darts, when I do, it'll be some P. terribilis...because I hate fruit flies and they can eat crickets as adults lol

Great advice, Paul  :Smile:

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## Paul

Fruit flies are sooooo much easier to deal with than crickets lol. It takes some practice, but now I can shake out what I need and not have to battle any escaping flies  :Smile: . Aaaaaaand Flies are cheaper than crickets  :Smile:

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## Amy

I disagree.  Spring peepers had fruit flies for a year.  I was so disappointed when they became big enough for crickets but preferred fruit flies still. 

Then again, I do not keep crickets usually, I buy as needed from a pet store a couple blocks from work.  Right now I'm keeping small ones on hand for feeding the red eyes daily, but I won't when they're big enough for Mon-weds-Fri feedings.

I'm also a huge failure when it comes to making my own cultures so I ended up spending so much money for premade ones!

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## Paul

Yeah making cultures takes some practice too.

That is something I would recommend to anyone looking to get darts. Buy flies early, at least a month. This will let you practice making a few cultures so you will know how to do it and know that you will have enough food on hand to feed those little guys/gals.

Almost all new Dart frogs are very young, typically 1 month old. They will only be able to eat Springtails at first so you will want to get a culture or 2 of those and set them up in breeding tubs. Breeding tubs are basically a small shoebox size plastic tub with a loos fitting lid, some small charcoal, 1 inch of water, and springs. I bought my breeding setup initially from Neherp, but found the same bins at the dollar store. I haven't found a good source for the charcoal yet, but they are super simple. Just sprinkle some yeast in the tub with them every 2 to 3 days and in a month you will have more springs than you know what to do with  :Smile: .

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## Paul

Oh and we did the same thing with crickets when we had the 3 little ones. Once they got bigger it is way cheaper to buy the crickets by the 1000. Our local pet store will order us 1000 crickets at a time so we don't have to pay the shipping fees. I think we pay like $16 per 1000. At those prices I could buy them and resale them for a small profit lol.

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## Lynn

Eli,

Dart frogs should have live plants -only.
I don't know if the size of the tank is a final decision? But it is low.
Substrate is , at the very least, is 5". Like Paul mentions...this does not leave much 'height' space.

Leucomelas do well in a small group. But would  - really- appreciate more height. 
Auratus ( though very shy ) would be ok in a group as well. This species is especially sensitive to improperly kept temps. 

Dart frog species , nor morphs of species should never be mixed. What would happen to the 'mucked-up' off spring? 

Paul hit-the-nail-on-the-head ! Fr Fl do take some practice ! 

It's really very simple. Understand and respect  the 'rules' of proper husbandry..  FOLLOW THEM and your dart frogs will be very happy. 

My 5 species of dart frogs are all in exo-terra tanks. The screen tops have been completely removed and replaced with glass. I build layered substrate ...not false bottoms. Just a matter of preference. 

My tanks are drilled at the upper substrate area for automatic drainage; something I am SO very happy to have taken the time to do. 

I might me tempted to created a very small screened area in the next one I modify......like a 2' diameter, screen cover, hole in the glass lid. The only ventilation is the under the doors and the little holes in the lid made for tubing and cords to pass through.
I have never lost a dart frog. ( knock wood ) I believe they are happy  :Smile: 
Even the cord spaces are blocked ( with fiberglass screening )  for my R imitators and O pumilio froglets.
(They are quite proficient at escaping, and WILL find a spot if they can fit their little bodies through )

Some people block off the ventilation area under the doors so the fr fl don't escape. 
If this is done on an exo...... ventilation should be added somewhere else!

Heating the enclosure in never a problem. Cooling it very well could be. Be prepared for this.
Dart frogs can die quickly if they are too warm. AC or a lg fan will be needed if the room they are in cannot be heated or cooled separately.

Small world. ....  spent my summers , as a child, in Gilboa, NY.  I'm on LI. My PDFs are in my basement. I still need to use heat cables in the winter. ( yes ... heat cables - _carefully !_ ) In the simmer - I keep a big circular fan on a thermostat. I had this set to come on when the area reached 78, but recently moved it to 76 after finding one tank (a few days) ago that reached 78 F. I keep ,at least, 2 the thermometers in each tank; including ones that are stuck in the substrate. 

Get your enclosure going ,at the very least ,a month in advance. 

Don't forget to QT your frogs. You know the routine. 

Black Jungle has great plants too ! 
Josh's Frogs has great supplies for fr fl , really good ABG. Especially recently, the spagnum is ground up better   :Smile: 
IMO NEHerp has the best ghost wood  :Smile:  pcs.

Repashy "Super Fly" is my favorite fr fl medium. I was making my own for a while. But ( no more) I worry about crashes and being without food for a lot of hungry babies  :Frog Surprise:  Too risky !

Buying frogs?  We all approach this differently.
Personally, like to buy at a show:
1) meet and speak to the person selling them to me
2) SEE what kind of conditions they are kept in 
3) and pick out my frogs........ myself  :Smile: 
4) avoid the addition stress of shipping ( but ...this is not always possible) 

There is a show in White Plains on 7/6/2014. There WILL b really good breeders there. If you would like names, throw me a PM  :Smile:  Happy to help!.  It would be worth the ride. Since you have to QT them for at least month anyway.... purchasing the frogs 1st is really not a problem as long as you have a QT tank ready. If you want to speak to a QT expert ...talk to Heatheranne. She can vouch for them being happy and health in QT for a 'very long time'   :Big Grin: 

Enjoy ! _I guess you are hooked now_  

Keep us posted !   :Butterfly:

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Frogman1031

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## Carlos

Hi Eli!  Just want to add that you will need an AC room to help maintain cool temps in Summer.  There is no other efficient and less expensive way to cool a high humidity vivarium  :Smile:  .

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## Eli

Thanks everyone for your very thorough and informative replies! I kinda figured it was too small. We already ordered a screen top just that size:/. But maybe i can use it for my toad when he gets bigger. My dad wants it done ASAP this is his project just as much as mine. Would a 40 gallon breeder be ok? I'm definitely going for a more terrestrial species. I know it only adds an inch of height but I'm hoping that the extra 6 inches of floor space can suffice. Hopefully petco will have that one dollar a gallon sale soon. I hope the exo terras are a part of it because they are so great to use. I haven't ordered any living things yet. Until the tank is decided. When the tank i set I'll monitor everything closely for a few weeks before getting the frogs. I have been planning on going to white plains for over two months now :Big Grin: !


The Frog chooses its owner. Treat your life-long friend with respect and care and it will never disappoint!

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## Lynn

> Thanks everyone for your very thorough and informative replies! I kinda figured it was too small. We already ordered a screen top just that size:/. But maybe i can use it for my toad when he gets bigger. My dad wants it done ASAP this is his project just as much as mine. Would a 40 gallon breeder be ok? I'm definitely going for a more terrestrial species. I know it only adds an inch of height but I'm hoping that the extra 6 inches of floor space can suffice. Hopefully petco will have that one dollar a gallon sale soon. I hope the exo terras are a part of it because they are so great to use. I haven't ordered any living things yet. Until the tank is decided. When the tank i set I'll monitor everything closely for a few weeks before getting the frogs. I have been planning on going to white plains for over two months now!
> 
> 
> The Frog chooses its owner. Treat your life-long friend with respect and care and it will never disappoint!


Hi,
By the time you spend the $$ converting a 40 gallon breeder...perhaps take a look at the 24 wide x  18 x 24H  or 36 wide  x18 x24 H exos.
Check the prices at pet smart or walmart? . Not PetCo usually too $$$ . The exos are not part of the $1 sale  :Frown: 

The 36 wide is a super tank for a terrestrial PDF species ( group ) 
The screen tops are very, very  simple to change out >  to glass .
If I can do it....anyone can  :Wink: 

You will not be sorry......promise

free shipping 
http://www.amazon.com/Exo-Terra-Glas...ords=exo+terra

RC Hagen PT2608 Exo Terra High Glass Terrarium, 24 inchx18 inchx36 inch: Reptiles & Amphibians : Walmart.com

This size  goes on sale there for 90.00 at times
Exo Terra® Reptile Terrarium & Background | Terrariums | PetSmart

 :Butterfly:

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Frogman1031

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## Paul

> Thanks everyone for your very thorough and informative replies! I kinda figured it was too small. Would a 40 gallon breeder be ok? I'm definitely going for a more terrestrial species.



I had a 40b setup for some Mantellas and while I LOVED the floor space it provided for such a cheap price (i bought it during the $1 a gallon sale) I ended up hating how short the height was. I think It can be done, but I would advise you to do the same route that Lynn has suggested and go with an Exo terra unless you plan to convert an aquarium style tank into a vertical tank.

The Exo Terras are pricey and vary hard to find on sale, but they are so worth it when it comes to Dart frogs. 

I do the same thing for the lids that Lynn does, except I have had my glass pieces cut about an inch short for the top of the tank and then siliconed in some fiberglass screening to create air flow over the front of the tank to help keep the glass clear. It does very little to hurt the humidity in the tanks and the heat stays up nice and high as well. 

I think the overall point being repeated in many different ways here is to pick the frog you want to keep and then start to design a home for them specifically. Do as much pre planning on the tank as you can and get it all ordered and put to gather in advance. It is easy to get in a hurry when building a tank, but being patient and taking your time during this phase will almost always result in a better product that will last you and your frogs for years. 

Enjoy this part of the process. This is a slow walk towards a goal. Take in all the sights. Don't sprint to the finish line and miss all the fun little details  :Smile:

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Frogman1031

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## Eli

The project was put on hold for a little bit due to vacation and other things but it's back and in full swing. We have decided on the species, and here it is! *drumroll* dendrobates leucomelas! Was it bad that i was full of anticipation during that drumroll :Wink: ? I have ordered and received only the basic stuff. False bottom, substrate  barrier, abg mix, spaghnum moss, leaf litter, a reptile cave extra large, and a pretty much useless light bulb. Now here's the part that is bugging me. Expandable and fish safe foam is on the way. Is this stuff ok for making the 3D background? I have told my dad that we need a taller tank. I said that an 18x18x24 exo terra is roughly the same size but is taller. He said that i should build the tank we have then maybe in a few months we would get a different tank. 
There is just one problem with that. That being that i simply and utterly refuse to build two tanks unless there are more frogs involved. And besides the first one isn't tall enough anyway and i'm paying for everything. 
The first tank being with plants and everything! But i will cross that bridge when i come to it. For now how much of each layer of substrate should i use? And again, help me with the background  :Frown: .

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## Paul

Eli,

Luecs will want more height than a 40B horizontal will allow. I have 2 build threads up right now. One of them is a sticky in the vivarium section of the forum. In there is a video for converting a 40B into a vertical tank. This will give you a 18wx16DX36H tank and a couple to 3 Luecs would love it.

I also just finished a build with my son in a 40b where we left it vertical. It is in the build section as well. Look those over and watch the how to video for converting the 40B. It really wasnt that expensive to convert. I would have to sit down and do the math, but off the top of my head you will need to buy the following.

1/4 Glass cut to size ($25.00 roughly)
Screen frame kit (from a big box hardware store $13.00 roughly)
Window Screen (This can also be used to separate the drainage layer from the soil $15 for a big roll)
Window screen tool (get the cheapest one they have. I think I spent $4 on mine)
2 Part Clear Epoxy (I used Gorrila Glue epoxy. Woked great $6.00)
Acrylic piano hinges ( Got mine from joshsfrogs.com 2 x 12" hindges for $9.00 with shipping included)
Aquarium safe silicone ( used it on the bottom glass and the new bottom of the tank to make it water tight Big box store $6.00)

It took several minutes a day for about 4 days to get it done.

Anyways. Hope these help.

For soil you want to do a minimum of 3" of soil either way you build the tank. The Drainage layer needs to be 2 - 3 inches deep as well. The 40B is 16" tall so you will potentially loos 6 inches of that just on the substrate section.

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Frogman1031

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## Paul

Here are the links to the builds I mentioned.


http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...d-journal.html



http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...d-journal.html

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## Eli

Luckily i convinced my dad that we needed to get a taller tank. So we are waiting until the White Plains reptile expo on sept. 7 to buy an 18x18x24 exo terra. The expanding foam for the background came in. Still researching to come up with ideas. Unfortunately, my dad's "philosophy" is (exact words) "if we lose two, three, four, or five frogs then we'll just buy more" so ive pretty much been stalling to research more on the subject havent even unpackaged most of the stuff thats here already. But the build will start soon and i be posting my progress every day until its done :Smile:

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