# General Topics > Vivarium, Terrarium & Enclosure Discussion >  40b Dart tank - Natural style build Journal

## Paul

Ok - Several weeks ago I acquired a 4b aquarium 36" long x 18" Deep x 16" Tall. Through the inspiration of Geo and his M. Betsileo tank I have decided that this tank will be my first attempt at doing an all Natural Vivarium. 

This will be a slow process. Some of the items I am wanting to use I will have to order in and they are not as cheap as spray foam and wood glue lol.

I braved the snow and wind today and purchased some rocks to start test fitting into the tank. 

I will start taking pictures this weekend and documenting the steps and the general idea behind it all.

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## Carlos

Have fun Paul  :Smile:  !  Build projects are great entertainment when the outside is stormy and cold  :EEK!:  !

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## Paul

Ok soooo 230ish pounds of rock was a bit over kill lol, but it did allow for us to pick through the selection I brought home and find the layout we liked best. 

I took about 21 pictures that we kept of the final setup. All the rocks have since been removed from the tank to be cleaned and baked in the over for about an hour each at 225. Going to do a picture over load here as I want this build journal to be useful as a guide down the rode. Please if you have any questions or comments post a reply  :Smile: 

The Tank


The predetermined water line using extreme levels of math and randomness :P Actually its set to be just above what the sponge filter will need in order to work


First layer in the tank. This layer is designed to spread the weight out over the bottom of the tank and to allow the creatures that will inhabit the water to move freely around the tank


1st second layer rock


1st rock in tank


2nd second layer rock


2nd rock in tank - This layer is just used to get the main land mass up above the waterline and provide a 2nd layer path for the aquatic critters


Third layer rock


In Tank


Medium size river rock - Used to support the edges of the top layer


River rock in back right corner


1st top layer rock


1st top layer rock in tank


2nd river rock


This was placed as a filer. The water at this point was going to be deep and wanter something to give any frogs that fall in something they can get on to help climb out


Not sure the type of rock this is, but it is another support for the top layer


Rock in front right


2nd top layer rock


Rock in tank. This rock is meant to be just above the waterline so the frogs can use it to soak on


Last support rock


In tank on the left side


Last and final top layer rock


In tank - This is the final layout of the rocks


As I said I have removed all the rocks and chronicled their position in the tank with the pictures. They will be cleaned and baked. The tank will be very heavy so before we continue we have to decide where we will place it and do the rest of the build there.

Again this will be a slow build. Once we have the water in place and the critters added we will let it run like that for 2 weeks or so before we start on the substrate and plants. Once the plants and everything is in we will let it run for a month or longer before we order the frogs and introduce them into it.

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## Paul

All the rocks have been cleaned and backed in the over accept the biggest one. It wouldn't fit so I baked it twice as long and then dried if for 5 days in front of a heating duct. 

The supply gathering process has been slow. I spent all my money on the rocks. I will be returning the excess rocks on Monday and will hopefully be able to order some additional supplies with the money I get back.

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## Carlos

The rock arrangement looks great Paul  :Smile:  .  However; those are lot's of big heavy slabs and regular 40B tanks have a regular, not tempered glass bottom  :EEK!:  .  Would recommend you place a sheet of plastic egg crate cut to fill the whole bottom of tank.  The egg crate will protect bottom and help spread out the weight.  Then can use a layer of very fine Caribsea aragonite sand to fill egg crate holes to their top edge.  That will prevent food and dirt getting caught in egg crate holes.  Just an idea and good luck  :Big Grin:  !

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## Paul

Carlos,

Yeah we have been thinking of the weight and wondering if it will hold. However the bottom of this breeder is tempered surprisingly enough  :Smile: . The idea with the small rocks on the bottom and building up to the top is to help spread the load out as much as possible. We won't be adding the rocks back in until we have the tank set in place and won't be moving it again after that. 

The egg create and sand idea sounds like it might work if we start to suspect any problems, but I think the tempered glass will hold up. We will be weighing all the rocks to see what the total weight of the rocks are and then go from there. 

Thank you for the advice!

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## bill

Actually, you thought process is backwards. Placing the small rocks on the bottom concentrates the weight to a smaller footprint. Instead of going with egg crate on the bottom, you can cut up a cheapie yoga mat from A dept store and place it under the glass portion of the tank, not the rim. That way it will cushion the bottom pane of glass and will allow some flex without breaking. It's an old time trick planted tankers use because of the weight of all the hardscape we use. 

Otherwise, the build looks like it is going to be very cool looking. Nice job!

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## Paul

Nice tip with the Yoga mat! Will Def look into that. 

As I said earlier. The weight of the rocks in the tank is a big concern for us on this build. I really do appreciate the tips on how to best distribute the weight across the bottom glass as evenly as possible.

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## bill

the yoga mat works very well you just need to make sure it is slightly thicker than the rim that way when the tank is set on it and the weight is in it, it will compress so the rim sits flat. i've done this with rimmed and rimless tanks and i know it saved more than one tank.

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## Paul

Will Def be looking into the Yoga mat trick. Really don't like the idea of using egg crate in the natural setup  :Smile: 


So I am testing out heating the terrarium using an underwater heater in a 10 Gallon tank. it appears to be working on a much smaller scale than this tank will end up being but it has brought out something I have not tried to address yet, and that is the Fog. I covered the top of the 10 gallon in Plastic wrap to log in the moisture and trap some heat to simulate the dart tank when it is finished. I assume the fag is due to lack of ventilation, but I am wondering what others do to combat it. I was considering putting 1/2 section of screen along the front glass to promote air flow over the front glass to help keep it down, but I also know due to the high humidity needs the dart tank needs to have little to no air circulation. 


Soo at the risk of repeating myself in this post. What are some good tricks to limit fog.

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## Paul

Another Brief update - I returned the excess rocks I purchased (136 pounds worth of excess). I took the money to Home Depot and bought some Blocks and MDF and set up a cheap stand for it. I decided to set it up low to allow the vertically challenged peoples in the house access to feed and trim and such without any difficulty. I decided to set this one up down in the basement of my 1850 era home. It looks rough, but it is heated and stays daily humid on its own which will be nice during the winter months. As time progresses I will clean this space up more and make it into a proper frog room. I have access to the water lines to the outside faucets from here and plan to "T" one off to a faucet in the basement for the tanks (so i don't have to haul water form upstairs down here to dechlorinate. 





Decided to go ahead and get a sheet of egg crate while I was there and cut it to fit. This will help with spreading the load out. I opted for this route over the yoga matt because it was cheaper  :Smile: 



I have begun pricing and planning on the purchases for the Aquatic section. Once I have that all setup and running I will turn my focus onto the land masses.


PS - Hauling the blocks, rocks, and tank down into the basement today sucked. lol

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## Paul

Big order placed this week for supplies.

Aquatic heater
Small water filter
Ultra Sonic Fogger
Moss
Drift wood
A large cork round
Aquatic soil
Sprintails (starting a breeding culture)
Isopods (starting a breeding culture)
Hinge for the glass top
Handle for the glass top
Glass top

Will ultimately try to heat the tank using the Aquatic heater, but won't know if that will work until I try it out. It was working in a 10Gallon tank. If this doesn't work I will either use a CHE or Heat cord.

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## bill

Aquarium heaters work excellent once you get them dialed in. Just an FYI on the ultrasonic fogger, they shoot a water spout about 2" high, so plan ahead for it.

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## Paul

> Aquarium heaters work excellent once you get them dialed in. Just an FYI on the ultrasonic fogger, they shoot a water spout about 2" high, so plan ahead for it.


I have a plastic container of sorts with a lid I will be altering to house the fogger and hide the water spout. Not 100% sure what I will do to it yet, but the plan is to cut a hole near the top of the container to insert a hose and then route the fog to where I want it. I will of course be testing this out prior to installing it in the terrarium. 

Glad to hear you have had success with the Aquarium heater. In theory it seems like it will work wonderfully and all my testing leads me to think it will work great, but I am reserving my final opinion until I test it in the tank lol. 



The Aquatic soil is running late on the shipping so their won't be any progress on the tank until late next week. This weekend will be full of testing and working on the final design of the tank with all the pieces in hand finally.

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## ndame88

Paul,
What species of PDF are you planning on putting in the viv?

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## Paul

Not entirely sure yet. The wife really likes the Dendrobate Auratus so we will most likely end up with one of those morphs.

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## ndame88

D. Auratus will be a good choice, do you already keep PDFs?

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## Paul

No these will be our first ones. My Son is also in the middle of a tank build for some Darts. I absolutely love Dart though and plan to have many many tanks of them in the future  :Smile:

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## ndame88

Great welcome to the hobby, not sure if you spend any time over on Dendroboard or Dart Den, but a lot of information on builds and care.  If you need any advice, let me know, by no means am I an expert, only have 3 PDF vivs, but have been involved with PDFs for the past 3 years, I live near Springfield IL, so not that far away.

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## Paul

Awesome thank you  :Smile: 

I have done a painful amount of research over the last 3 months on Darts and the care and enclosure requirements. Hopefully all the research pays off. We are still several months away from getting frogs. I want the tank to be up and running for at least one month before we even think about adding frogs to it.

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## ndame88

Great, can't wait to see how you put in the substrate around the rocks for plants, isos, and springtails. 

Best of luck

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## Paul

Ok soil was added to cover the egg crate on the bottom of the tank We used Unfertilized and organic top soil and covered that with Flourite <Back>. I then added in the proper amount of de chlorinated water and put the heater in the tank and the small filter. I will let it run like this for several days and let the water settle before doing anything else. 

When I added the soil I removed the bulk of the rocks to make sure I got the soil in most of the bottom. But now all of it to keep the weight of the tank down some. I took a picture but it looks like a hot mess right now. 

I also got some glass cut for the lid at a local glass shop for around $14. Much cheaper than buying some kind of plastic to cut to size. 

The order for the rest of the materials has been delayed due to the weather. Should be shipped tomorrow.

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## Paul

Here a re a few pics of the progress tonight. I forgot to take pics of the Aquatic substrate being added. When the Flourite came in I realized that it was not going to be enough to accomplish what I was looking for. So I went to HD and bought some regular old topsoil. I added about 1.5 inches of it across the bottom. Then covered that in a .5 to .75 inch layer of the Flourite. 

I then filled the tank to the desired depth with De Chlorinated tap water. 



I previously had gathered some Leaves and sticks from the yard (We have an ancient Oak and Pecan tree in the yard). I had to dig them out from under 12 inches of snow so I did this in advance so they could dry out and be picked through. I then boiled the sticks and the leaves for 1 hour. After that everything was rinsed several times with de chlorinated tap water and then left in a tub to soak in the same type of water for 24 hours. 




Tonight I ripped the leaves into smaller pieces and started lining the bottom of the tank with leaves and dropping a few sticks in the water. Once I was done and I sat back to look at it I realized the water was not deep enough for the look I was going for. So I reworked the bottom and middle layer of rocks and raised the whole top landmass by 2 inches or so. I added 2 more gallons of water and then added some more leaves in. 






I don't have the hinge or handle for the glass top yet but I placed the 2 pieces on top of the tank after I placed the aquatic heater where left space for it and setup the sponge filter. I placed a crappy analog Thermometer and Hydrometer in the tank so I can test out heating the tank with the water heater. It took it all of 2 mins to fog the glass up so I can't see into it. So now I will let it sit and let the water do it's thing for 24 hours or so. I might go buy some shrimp tomorrow and place them in the water to see how they do. I am not going to do anything to treat the water further and will the the nitrogen cycle start on it's own when it is ready.

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## bill

That's looking great Paul! Nice build!

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## Paul

Thanks Bill. I am loving this one. It is going very slowly, but I am enjoying it a lot!


Well the pet store had a whole mess of shrimp in stock so I bought 28 Ghost shrimp and then decided to get 2 Piecostomus (they are babies and about the size of the shrimp at this point.

Here is a really awful picture of a shrimp saying Hi to one of the piecostomus. 




And here is a top view of the tank while the shrimp and Sucker fish were waiting to be added



I also bought a sponge insert for the filter. I let the carbon filter do its thing over night and it pulled a lot of debris front he water over night. 

Hopefully the next round of supplies arrives this week...

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## bill

I really hope you bought bristle nose plecos. Anything else will need to be removed soon. You could have went with otocinclus, they are shrimp friendly and only grow to about 2".

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## Paul

They are Bristle Nose. They did not have any Otocinclus that looks healthy unfortunately. Right now I will be happy if the dead loss on this first round of shrimp and Bristle nose is low...

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## bill

Bn's are awesome. I have a few friends who breed them. I figured you knew to get them, but other's reading might not have

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## Paul

Good Point. Yeah the employee at Petco was no help. You def have to do your own research before going to the store to purchase anything. I am not planning on adding any more aquatic life. I will be getting some plants for the water at some point, but first I need to save up for the LED lights.

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## Paul

I should add that I also bought some algae wafers and Frozen bloodworms to supplement the shrimp and BN's diet while the algae in the tank takes off to feed them. I will most likely restrict the Wafers and Bloodworms to being a treat once a week or less after the algae has taken off in the tank.

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## bill

I'll give ya a tip.... Both bristle nose and shrimp love boiled zucchini.

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## bill

And most employees at petsmart don't have a clue. The last time I bought fish from them was a few years ago. I was stocking my 125 (it was heavily planted at the time) and it was during the $1 cardinal tetra sale should have seen the girl's face when I told her I wanted all of them lol it ended up being 75 or so. Told the girl they were going in a 55 but I had a huge filter hooked up to handle the bio load, she said "oh, they should be fine then" dummy!! Lol

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## Paul

lol that is hilarious. There is this one lady at the local Petco who is a planted tank nut and is fun to talk to. She is forever showing pictures of her tanks and custom stands, but yes they are largely idiots when it comes to caring for the animals they sale.

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## bill

Yes they are!!

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## Paul

So 28 shrimp in the bottom of a 40B tank are hard to find when you can only see the edges of the tank lol. 



I am not prepared to admit that I spent 15 mins looking at the tank trying to find one of the sucker fish, but here is a pic of one of them  :Smile: 



I also picked up 3 plants at Home Depot tonight. I will get some pics up later. They are not anything special, but will help fill the tank  :Smile: 

I should also add that Josh's Frogs showed me today that they have the absolute best customer service. I emailed them to let them know that the plants I bought 3 or so weeks ago to let them know they arrived frozen, but I went ahead and planted them to try and save them. They have all since died. I am way outside of their live arrival window and I ordered during the coldest part of winter around here. I sent them the email this afternoon. The email was more of a informational email and was not asking for replacement plants. Well a couple hours later I got an email from them and they are sending me out all the plants again free of charge. That level of service is just unheard of. I love those guys and gals!

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## Paul

Well in usually fashion I am looking at the frogs I want to get for this tank, even though it will be months before I am ready to order any. I won't go into to many details, but I have sunk a chunk of my money into the tank and the wife has been less involved finically with this tank. Today she gave me the green light to get whatever frog I wanted for the tank and not the Turquoise and Bronze Aratus she wants. So I started browsing to see if there was anything I wanted more and I was wondering who are some good Dart frog breeders. I am know of LLL Reptile and Josh's Frogs... LLL Reptile doesn't haven anything I am interested in other than the Bronze Mantellas and Josh's frogs has a lot of things out of stock right now. So If there are any other reputable breeders I would love to hear about them.

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## Paul

Replacement plans are in from Josh's frogs. I put all the plants (the replacement from Josh and the 3 from Home Depot) into a tub with some ABG mix to grow in till the tank is ready to be planted. Not all of these plants till make it into this tank.

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## Paul

Shipment came in today from NEHERP. We got the Cork Round, 2 pieces of Drift wood, Isopod, Springtails, moss, Handles for the glass top, and Hinges for the glass top. 

I didn't get a picture of the cork round before I cut on it sorry, but it was roughly 24inchs long and between 5 and 7 inches in diameter. It was a real beauty. Was a shame to cut it down for my use. 

We spent a long time figuring out how we wanted the wood to lay in the tank and how we wanted the cork round to look in the corner. Here are some pics of one of the wood layouts we almost stayed with.



and the same layout from the top.




What we were going for with the wood was to create some natural hides for the frogs between the wood and the rocks/substrate. 

We ended up moving them to make the wood look like branches that had fallen from a tree.... We hope the cork round in the corner will make it look like this environment is at the base of a tree.

Here is the final wood locations from the front and then the top.







We ended up moving the little rock down onto the lower piece of slate. Here is a picture of the filter behind the cork round.




Hard to see but the filter is hidden behind it. We then added a mix of ABG mix and a bit of top soil to the top of the rocks. Then added moss on top of that. We left some of the soil open and covered it with Sphagnum moss. 





Here are some pictures of the hides.





Still need to do a plant order. Some of the plants from Josh's frogs will make it into here, but not sure how many. 

The springtails and Isopods are setup to breed. In about a month or so we will seed the tank with both and let them populate the tank and reproduce in there for a month or so before we consider adding frogs. We are hoping the tank will have 2 or more months of growth before frogs get added.

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## Geo

Dude! Cool! 

Seriously Paul you have done a great start to the habitat. Keep up the updates as I am curious to see if your experiences are different then my own. 

The one difference in our tanks is that you are using a horizontal layering of the rocks where as I went with creating a crater effect with the rocks. The island is a cone of rock with everything else in the middle. I did this to allow for a wider perimeter of water to surround the rocks underneath. As was pointed out earlier if you do that though you need to keep in mind that the weight distribution isn't as widely dispersed as your present layout but more center oriented and that can be a factor. 

I am curious to see how your moss holds out as I find that the biggest challenge in regards to the plants in the habitat. They do well, then there is some die off, then some of it regrows and so on. BUT my issues are probably associated to the fact that I am presently not using tropical moss but temperate and they don't seem to like high humidity or consistent light.

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## Paul

Thanks Geo! I owe you and your tank for inspiring me to even try this. I wasn't happy with the depth of the water so I put the top big rock on top of 4 small rocks (Laid out on the corners like table legs). This gave me about 2 inches of space for additional water and has created a underwater cave that can be access from all sides of the tank. Its cool. If you put a light on one side of the tank and look through the other towards the light you can see everything under the water and watch the little shrimp go about their business in the dark. The sucker fish are near impossible to find, but every now and then I see them moving about. Not sure if 28 shrimp will be enough. Considering buying 20 more and adding them in in a few weeks. 

I might add a few of the plants I have on hand to the enclosure, but I have my eye on some plants online, just need to save some money first. 

Yeah I am curious to see what lives and dies in the tank as well I can't wait to see how things grow and change. 

The waiting to add frogs is going to kill me, I can already tell.

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## Geo

Bro you have more then enough shrimp to start a colony. They won't take long to breed once they are settled in. They can be quite indestructible to be honest as long as your water has no extremes in regard to contaminants and chemicals. You may end up having to give some away eventually. I would also limit the fish too as the idea is to let them go about living their lives, acquiring what they need from the water but not to allow them to consume everything in it. ie If the frogs breed and happen to do what mine did and deposit the tadpoles into the water you may want the natural biology of the water to supplement the new tadpoles' diet a bit (although you may need to add algae wafers and such to ensure everyone down there is eating). The waiting bit is torture. I am contemplating starting another tank upstairs in a few months that is going to be all visual eye candy and already I am getting the itchy frog purchaser finger lol

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## Geo

We have an inspirational dynasty starting here lol Bill's tank build inspired me, I inspired you and you will inspire someone else. Pass it on. That is what forums like this one should be all about. Very cool. Froggers Rule!

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## Paul

LoL yeah that is my sticking point with the shrimp I want enough to keep the water somewhat clean without having so many that it is robbed of all nutrients. I am hoping and trying to setup the tank so that they frogs can lay their eggs over the water or have access to deposit their tadpoles in the water. 

I bought some Algae wafers and some blood worms to help supplement their diet a bit very sparsely.

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## Paul

I have plans for a RETF tank that I hope to start on soon. I can't get enough of this!

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## Geo

There should be a forum for frogaholics lol.

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## Paul

Planted a Sansevieria Trifasciata 'Gold Hahnii', Davallia Trichomanoides 'Black Rabbit's Foot Fern', Neratanthus 'Christmas Holly' - Goldfish Plant, and then some sort of Dwarf Elephant ear isn plant. 

I took some pictures but they turned out crappy. I'll try to take more tomorrow. 

Also got the fogger put into place and tested. The ultra sonic fogger had a red light on it that ruined the effect when it was on. I covered the red light in about 8 layers of black paint and then topped that in clear silicon, tested it and took a short video of it in motion. I uploaded it to Photo Bucket, not sure how the streaming quality of it will be but here it is.

http://s79.photobucket.com/user/Dirg..._1290.mp4.html

I wanted it placed behind the cork round but that just wouldn't work out the way I wanted. I have the fogger placed in a small plastic container that has holes drilled in it to allow water into it and the top open above the waterline to let the fog out.

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## Paul

I am torn between doing a spices of Dart frog or getting some Mantellas for this viv. I have never really considered Mantellas before now, but I like that they are not super popular and if I could keep them and breed them I feel like it could be a big help to the hobby as a whole, but then I look at some of the PDFs and I want them too lol.

So what do y'all think Mantella or PDF?


On a tank update note - Its only been a few days and the moss has started on its standard browning phase after being introduced into the Paludarium. The plants seem to being doing good so far. I will be placing a final plant order this week and will be getting one more piece of wood and a temp/humidity probe.

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## bill

I think you know my vote without even stating it lol

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## Paul

lol Yeah  :Smile:  I figured your vote went without saying  :Smile: 

The more I read the more I am leaning towards Mantellas. I really like the thought of keeping a species that is not widely bred in captivity and hopefully adding to the CB population. Are there any reputable Mantella breeders out there? I see that LLL Reptiles has them on their site, but no one there can answer with 100% accuracy if they are CB or not.

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## Paul

Ok it is decided. I am going to get 6 M. Betsileo Hoping to get 4 males and 2 females. I just need to save up a little money first. We have Springtails Breeding and Spanish Orange Isopods in a breeding setup as well. We have fruit flies going, but will need to up the number of cultures we keep going to support the added mouths we will be feeding. 

I am attempting to breed crickets as well so we could also have some pinhead crickets for them to mix up their diet some. 


The tank is looking good. The plants seem to be adapting well to it. some of the moss has started to green up again, all in all I am very pleased with how this tank is progressing. The cork bark in the corner has a bit of white mold on the back of it. I am deputing on pulling some of the springs from my RETF terrarium and putting in this tank, the Spring Colony in there is massive now. The water has cleared up a lot and the Shrimp seem to be thriving. Hard to tell if any of them have died because they spend most of their time under the main rock in the darkness.

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## Paul

Final supply order placed for the tank. I ordered 4 plants (though I doubt they all make it into the tank), Another piece of driftwood, A couple of Split Seep pods (I got those just to see how they look, not sure if I will use them or not), 25 Insect cups and vented lids, Some Oak leaf litter, and a temp/humidity digital sensor. 

I also placed the order for 5 M. Betsileo, I wanted 5 and wanted to wait a bit longer before placing the order, but they only had 5 left and I couldn't find anywhere else with them in stock or even offered other than Understory in Canada and the shipping from their is crazy coming to the states. I will keep my eyes open and try to pick up some more for the tank as time goes on.

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## bill

I got a guy in jersey that has m. Betsileo available. He ships. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Rare...9826366512731/

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## Paul

Awesome, Thanks Bill!

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## bill

No problem!

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## Andrew exotics

Hey Paul where did you get that moss?!Love the look of it

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## Paul

> Hey Paul where did you get that moss?!Love the look of it


I got all the cork, wood, and moss from the below site. I love it! It took 2 of the large bags to cover what I did with a little left over. 

New England Herpetoculture LLC - Moss

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## Paul

5 M. Betsileo are in route from LLL Reptile as I type. They will be here first thing in the morning tomorrow. Hopefully they will be ok. It is freaking cold here...

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## Paul

They are here and all look healthy and are most def alive. Once they were all in the tank a couple ran off and hid and the others explored a bit and started calling. Its so Cool! lol I love them already!

I got the pictures I could before they all disappeared into the hides and leaf litter. They are stunning!





One of them hopped up on the glass to show off his/her belly markings.

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## bill

Awesome Paul!! LLL is where I got mine. Such a great company to deal with. I plan on getting more from them if I don't find anything at the show in white plains in April.

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## Paul

Thanks Bill! These are the 2nd frogs I have bought from them. Got 2 of the Reds from them back in Jan. 


Had a minor scare, One of them jumped off into the water and was on a rock under the main landmass. I spent 15 mins trying to figure out how I was going to stage a rescue. I decided to leave him alone and let him sort it out on his own (there is no way to access that rock without destroying the landmass and the other 4 frogs). I went back down a few minutes ago and watched him jump into the water and swim to the glass and climb out. I don't know what ratio of males to females I ended up with and will attempt to sex them when I feed them for the first time later today.

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## bill

Haha. Mine loved water. I had one that found a hiding spot only accessible by diving into the water first. It's why I get such a kick out of people who caution about water in a Viv to prevent drowning lol

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## Paul

LoL thats awesome! After seeing him save himself I am really excited to watch these little frogs lives. All the pictures online really do not do these little guys and gals justice. They are so very pretty! My wife came home to see them while I was putting in their home and loved them. From the pictures online she thought they would be plane looking. 

I need to save some money for a while, but I think I am going to add 2 - 4 more to the colony, but want to be sure of my male to female ratio. 

I placed an order for a few more items for the mantilla tank and all the items to do a Natural style tank for the RETF.

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## bill

Sounds cool!!  Keep in mind though with those guys, they may be small, but they like a lot of territory, so be careful not to over crowd them. 

I also found my males liked to climb and "survey" their territory, while the females stayed at ground level.

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## Paul

Yeah that is a concern of mine too. I want to see how many males are in the 5 I just got before I decide to get more or not. I am hoping it is 3 males and 2 females. Was wanting 6 with a 4 male to 2 female ratio

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## Paul

One of them has been hanging out by this tiny little cave in the rock base all day. Only left it to feed then it went right back.

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## Paul

I added a couple new plants today. I felt like the tank needed more filler to break up the tank some and give the Mantellas some more things to hide around or under. 

I put a fern in some sphagnum moss in a natural hole in the driftwood piece. 



And I put a... honestly forgot what it is called but it starts with an Hyac... or something. I put it in the front right corner. There was a mostly exposed rock over there. I built up some soil on top of the rock to hold the plant in place and placed some moss on the dirt 



The 3 Mantellas that have been out and visible everyday watched my every move while I was planting but they did not run and hide. It was the opposite of what I thought they would do.

I also had part of the top glass recut today and had 9 1" holes cut in it. I siliconed some fiberglass window screen over each hole to turn them into air vents. I will use cover them up or keep them open depending on the temp/humidity I am going for at that time. It is all curing tonight, I'll get pictures of it tomorrow. Only thing I don't like about it is the fact the silicone is white. I ran out of clear and decided to use what I had on hand instead of spending more money.

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## bill

I'm really starting to dig this tank. Can you get a full tank shot?

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## Paul

Yeah I will get one tomorrow. I will have to do a couple because it just doesn't do it justice to see if from top down without also seeing it from the sides lol. I am going to add another piece of wood or 2 to it and then I think it will be done. I have been contemplating using some of the left over Moss Mix from Folius in here somewhere, but don't know where I would put it.

I can't tell if the springtails are living on the land or the water right now. There must be hundreds of them in the water eating on drowned fruit flies lol. 


Bill,

How often did you feed your mantellas? I am doing a morning feeding and an evening feeding right now, but I am just winging it lol.

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## bill

My guys ate like pigs! About 50 each. I fed them nightly when I got home from work. When temps started dropping, I fed them less. You don't need to worry about that since you're maintaining a consistent tank. I was allowing mine to cycle naturally with the weather. I misted less, fed less. Then in spring I would have reversed, to promote breeding behaviors. I couldn't do it last year though because they were mere froglets when I got them.

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## Paul

Thats the one thing I don't know about these guys. I am not sure how old they are right now. They are eating like crazy right now. I have been putting between 30 and 50 in each feeding, but have reframed from doing more because not all of them come out each time food is out. I check the tank every couple hours and if I see them hunting and don't see any flies I add more. 

I am hoping to cycle the tank and induce breeding, but the over site of not including vents to begin with have the tank holding steady, but I'd like the humidity to fluctuate a bit and right now it is steady at 81%.

I will simulate wet and dry conditions with misting. I am hand misting the tank now and the Mantellas don't seem to mind me doing it. I would like to add some MistKing nozzles to the tank in the future.

I currently haven them in an 11 hour day 13 hour night cycle since it is winter time and will increase that to 12/12 once spring decides it is here to stay.

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## Paul

Not sure what happened to my photo bucket links and I can't edit the posts to fix them. Here is a link to the photo bucket album.

Natural Mantella Tank Photos by Dirganion | Photobucket

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## bill

Sounds like you are doing everything correctly.  :Smile:

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## Paul

As Promised here are some whole tank shots from this morning. It you look close you can see a couple of the M. Betsileos standing post  :Smile: 


Top Down view - 


Front of Tank View -




Looking across to the left of tank from front right corner -




Looking across to the right of the tank from front left corner - 





And a couple of the frogs




This guy LOVES the fern. He is always under it or near it. I think this is the same one who has claimed the new plant and land mass. 



Saw a couple of the frogs fighting first thing this morning. One of them chased the other out of his spot. It was pretty cool to watch.

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## bill

Looks very cool Paul!! Not a lot of height for the plants to grow, but it's gonna fill in nicely.  :Smile:  I foresee a lot of trimming in your future lol

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## Paul

Yeah Lots and lots of trimming. I wish the tank was 3 or 4 inches taller, but I like the way it turned out. I lost 5 inches due to the water depth, but I am very pleased with the Aquatic section. I will be putting some plants in the water in the future. Mostly grasses to create some cover on the back of the wood area.

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## Paul

The last pieces for this tank arrived today. The Driftwood piece was simply amazing! NEHERP Rocks! Sorry the picture sucks. I will try to get a better shot tomorrow. This is down the right side of the tank, bridging the gap over the water between the 2 land masses.







Also bought a couple of these split seed pods. The other one was about 1/2 as much bigger than this one so it won't be going in the tank. But I set this one up to see if the Mantellas will use it at all. 



One of the Mantellas on the top of the new piece of wood. 



And a plant starts blooming  :Smile:  This thing is WAY to big for the tank. I will most likely be removing it and putting in something shorter.

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## Paul

The lid for this tank has been a struggle to find a way to do it right. I first bought 2 pieces of 1/8 thick glass. I bought a hinge for them and everything was working great until I realized I had no vents for even a little air flow. I watched as the tanks ambient temp rises slowly past 75 and after a couple days was 78 and heading to 80. I decided I needed to get some holes cut for vents. The local glass company could not get the 1/8" glass to drill properly without breaking. So they did it in 1/8" plexiglass... this was a horrible fail. I didn't even take the piece out of the store. They redid the work on 1/4 plexi at no charge. This worked great! Below is a pick of it after the screen was siliconed over the holes. 




Problem Solved!!! .... Nope. after 12 hours the plexi was already starting to bow in the middle down into the tank. After 18 hours it looked like it was going to fall into the tank. So I started thinking of other options. 

Today I located a screen top for 40b tanks at a local pet store. The screen was all dorked up, but the frame was still in perfect condition. I bought the top for $15 off the retail price... I failed to get a before pic, but picture the below thing with screen instead of glass. I took the top to the local glass company and had them cut me 2 more 1/8" pieces to cover the openings. I had them make the glass over sized for the gaps so I could lay them ontop and secure them with silicone. Now I have all sorts of white silicone at the house, but I am fresh out of clear and black so I decided to use what I had on hand and save the extra money. Here it is after the silicone was put on and the glass panels laid in place.



This thing is hinged down the middle. which is freaking perfect lol. The front piece of glass I had them cut 1" short on the width so I could put a vent along the front glass. I cute the fiberglass screen to size and siliconed it into place. On top of the silicone under the glass I also ran a bead of silicone down the sides of the glass to ensure it had a good hold on the lid and the glass. 

Admittedly it looks awful with the white silicone, but if this works I will have my solution for the next 40b I do lol. I'll clean up the excess silicone when it dries tomorrow and place this baby on the tank.

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## bill

You could have just saved a lot of time and energy by just getting a glass lid for a 40b. I think I paid $24 for mine for my 40b. Drilled a ton of smaller ventilation holes in the plastic spacer and it was perfect. May be a thought for next time.  :Smile:

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## Paul

Yeah I looked all over for a glass top for it and couldn't find them in stock anywhere.

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## Carlos

Sorry you had issues with top Paul; but if it helps you feel better, publishing them can help a fellow member avoid going that route  :Smile:  .

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## Paul

Yeah the top was a learning experience for sure. Trying to re invent the wheel does not always pay off, but like you said Carlos. Posting the failures as well as successes is a crucial part in sharing with the community. Helps others get ideas and learn from mistakes already made.

This really isn't the thread to update this, but Lynn once said to me when I first started posting about our first 2 frogs that once you make them move into Dart frogs you know the addiction has set in hard and all hope is lost.

Well The Mantella tank was setup in the basement to give them some privacy and now the space looks like this.



$4 light fixture holding the grow light for the mantilla tank  :Smile: 





The door against the shelf is a temp thing. I am looking to offload it as soon as possible lol.

The basement is slowly becoming a frog room. Complete with breeding racks, fruit fly shelves, and a 6 foot long, 6ft high, and 2 foot deep shelf to hold between 6 and 8 more tanks depending on the sizes. I am now hopelessly addicted to these little guys and gals. We now have 12 frogs in the house and the next frog purchases are already being discussed.

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## Paul

This tank suffered its first loss today. The Home Depot plant that was green with red markings passed away. It could not handle the high humidity and also disliked the Mantellas jumping on it to knock fruit flies off the leaves. 

RIP you cheap big box plant  :Smile:

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## bill

I am having a moment of silence for the big box plant  :Frown:

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## Paul

The M. Betsileos have been in the tank for a little over 3 weeks now. It seems like much longer than that to be honest with you. All 5 of them have been seen daily at feeding time. They do not like to hang out together so after a couple days of watching them try and tolerate each other to eat (I think the feeding spot I had set up now falls safely in the territory of one of them) I have switched the past to week to feeding them in 3 to 4 areas of the tank. I basically drop fruit flies at or near the entrance to the 4 hides they use in the tank. I still don't know how many males or females I have. It seems to me that I have at least 3 males, but there has been no calling and 3 of the frogs picked a hide and spend the day either sitting up on top of it or just inside it with their little heads poking out. 

Once of them has taken to climbing up the cork bark and sitting on top of it. The thing has caught me by surprise several times this past week. I think he is up there eating the fruit flies that run for high ground at feeding time, he hasn't tried to escape yet, but it scares me when I see him up there. It is a good 4 foot drop to the concrete floor in the basement and I hope I never find out if he can fall that far without injury. 


The temps and humidity seem to be stable in the tank right now. The temp stays around 75F constantly. I will open the front lid and watch them just before bed time allowing heat to escape and drop the temp down to 71 - 72. I have a HydroTherm not in use and have considered hooking it up to the Aquatic Heater and seeing if it can simulate a temp drop at night and be able to recover it in the day fast enough, but have not tested it out just yet. 

The humidity is will maintain a steady 70% between mistings and spike up to 80% after a misting. I am fine with 70% bottom line for now and will move into a wet cycle in a week of so and boost the humidity up into the 80% and hold it there. I have taken some cool videos of them eating and one of a Male (I think) going up to a female (I think) and puffing up over and over again and then moving on.

Here are a couple of videos I edited some shots together. 

This one is a video I made for fun - Its a fake movie trailer featuring the Mantellas.
This one is a compilation of the Mantellas eating. I added some slow motion sections to try and show off some of the faster moments better. 


Bill - On the swimming front I have seen them regularly just jump into the water and then swim (and they swim freaking fast) across the length of the tank (36in) and then race up the glass and jump off into a hide, It has been super cool to see!!  :Smile:

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## bill

Very cool Paul! Glad to hear they are behaving well for ya  :Wink: . 
The one that is climbing is most likely a male. They like to climb and "survey their kingdom" lol

That is so cool that yours go swimming as well. It's amazing the behaviors that you get to witness when they are given a more natural environment.  :Smile:

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## Paul

Man do they love to swim. Well at least 2 of them do it often. 

The water life itself has been fun to watch. The entire surface of the water is spotted with Springtails. They pounce on the fruit flies when they fall into the water. The shrimp will swim up to the water surface super fast and splash the surface causing flies or dead crickets to sink and then they enjoy their meal. 

I have started offering Small (very small crickets) to the Mantellas nightly. They seem to enjoy chasing those quick little buggers around the tank. I am recoding the cricket feedings that I can and will compile the best shots into a video and get that one up on youtube as soon as I can.

If there is any other video footage you would like to see let me know and I will do my best to get it added. 


-- The fogger that was placed in the tank has been removed. I did not need it for humidity control and one of the mantillas took up residence right next to its location and hated when I turned it on so I removed it while he was out eating the other day.

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## Paul

Interesting last week with the M. Betsileos. One of them has been seen in a different spot in the tank since they have been in there. Almost like he is trying to find a good home. Well for the past few days he has moved into the Split Seed Pod. Spends a lot of time in side it hiding, but I have also seen him/her On top of the stem just standing there. I will try to get a picture of Him/Her up there, but when I open the top He/She hops down with a quickness. 

It has been interesting watching them explore and get use to the new home. I can't be certain, but it appears like they are making small tunnels in the substrate around their hide. I know I have seen leaves shifted around to block off the view in the hides and I have seen them peaking out from down inside the moss, well more like under the moss. The all seem to be doing great! I am making sure to still spread the food around the enclosure so they don't have to fight for food. I have cut back on the cricket feedings, I see some crickets from time to time run for it when I do a heavy misting of the tank so I figure I will wait and see if they drown or get eaten before adding more.


edit: I am in need of a new/different temp/humidity gauge. The One I purchased originally kept bugging out and showing false readings. I finally tossed it and have been on the hunt for a replacement. I bought the same kind for my sons dart tank and his is doing the same thing. Anyone with any affordable options please let me know.

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## Paul

No new pictures of the frogs. I have been leaving them alone as much as possible. I still feel bad for having to disturb them so much to remove the fogger from the tank.

On a positive note I finally found a proper glass top for this tank on amazon. It was $30+  with $10 shipping added on at checkout. Got it in the mail today and it is nice. It is a solid lid (other i found were designed for a tank with a middle brace on the top and would not work for me). I will most likely modify it for more ventilation as time goes on, but here it is on the tank. I used a fork and melted a bunch of holes in the plastic part to see if that would be enough ventilation (I am assuming it won't be, but will let it run like that for now. 




The tank is steady now at 74.5F and 85 - 90% Humidity. The gauge in the tank is off by +5% so it is right in line with where I want it to be.

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## bill

Sweet!!

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## Paul

I don't even want to start trying to figure out how much money I wasted on this tank lid. Live and learn, though I did have to rush it because I found some M. Betsileos on sale and wanted to grab them before someone else die.. Ugh. Ok on to happier thoughts lol.

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## bill

Lol. I told you to go this route months ago buddy! But we all need to learn at our own pace. All that matters is you did get it sorted.  :Smile:

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## Paul

Yeah I know lol. My issue at the time was finding a top. The only place I found it for a reasonable price was sold out of them.

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## Josh

Haha, I got my glass lid for my hermit crabs from Petco for like $25. I just had to drill holes in the vinyl spacer like bill did. It keeps in humidity really well.  :Smile:

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## Paul

Here is a short video of a walkthrough of all my current tanks and the space I am setting up as a frog room in the basement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZUP5ShxCrc

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## Paul

Little premature to post this, but the plans have been set in motion to do a home upgrade for the M. Betsileo. I am saving up to purchase a 36x18x24 Exo terra and will design and build a new home for the 5 Mantellas I currently have. I am not at all unhappy with this tank and how it has preformed. I am however not happy with the vertical space (or lack there of) in the current home. 

My Plan is to buy the tank and build it out (again in the natural style) and let it grow in for a bit before moving the frogs into it. This 40b tank will then be converted into a vertical tank and I will be setup for future undetermined frogs. I figure a 18x16x36 tank would rock for either the 5 reds, or I might set it up with ledges and stuff for some Darts to give them some real height to explore.

Anyways, I only just made the final decision to start saving for the tank so I imagine I am a month or more away from even buying the tank to being this project. I will of course start a separate thread when that build begins. 


Tank update:

The frogs are doing great! Most of the plants are doing fantastic as well. Had a few plants fall victim to the high humidity level. I put a few plants in as a test to see how they would fair as well. The aquatic section and animals are doing good. I have no way of knowing how many shrimp are still alive in there. I put a bunch in at first and then added in about 10 more a few weeks ago to replace some of the possible dead loss. The two Picos are still alive and can be seen rarely swimming around.

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## Paul

Tank should be here in the next couple days. I went with a 24x18x24 Exo Terra for the M. Betsileo. All the supplies have been ordered as well (Wife decided she wanted to redo the red eye tank herself and approved fast track funds for both tanks lol).

I will create a separate build thread for this tank. Not going to do s true natural tank with this build, but I have high hopes for how it will turn out lol.

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## Josh

Awesome, can't wait to see! All your build journals are beautiful, and I love how you add so many pictures so that we can really see how progress goes. Hoping for more  :Smile:

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## Paul

Jarteta97,

Thank you! I have a blast build the tanks and sharing the progress on here for everyone to see how I do things and learn from my mistakes lol (and I make plenty of them). I will absolutely be starting a new thread once the build gets underway and will include a large amount of photos to show how things progress. 

I technically will be doing 2 tanks at once. My wife (who is the Red eye keeper) is upgrading them to a larger tank. We currently have 5 Reds in a 18x18x24 Exo terra. She is upgrading them to a 24x18x24 and changing the layout quite a bit. The natural style does not work well for the reds. They are much more messy that Darts or Mantellas and we are forever cleaning the water and the glass. I will go a thread for that one as well  :Smile: .

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## Josh

Between your builds and Bill's TARDIS build, I think I am going to be very​ entertained for the next few months

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