# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  I'm scared to force feed my pac man frog

## LIZZIE82

I don't know what to do.... My sister, who is a reptile breeder and has a lot of experience with amphibians as well.... Gave me her pac man frog about 2 months ago. He's over a year old. He's about the size of a golf ball. He's also albino if that means anything. Anyways, that is his background. When I first got him he was fine and ate just fine. I don't think he's been eating for a couple of weeks now. I have brought his temp up in his viv and noticed that he perked up a little bit. I noticed within the last week that he's not looking so good. I had to change his substrate because I didn't like the the moss I had in there and I haven't changed it since I got him. When I was cleaning it I noticed how much he has NOT been eating. The crickets and roaches had all burrowed when I thought that he was eating some of them. I soaked him in some warm water and I know he needs to eat. I'm scared to force feed him. He's generally got a bad attitude and I'm pretty sure he hates me as it is.  :Wink:  There isn't much of herp vets in my area. I took my red eyes to one and generally he tends to think they are goners by the time they get to him.  :Frown:  I do have some leftover baytril that I can give but I don't think there is an infection or parasite. I really think it's stress. He needs to eat to overcome this. So, please, someone help and tell me what to do! Or, if you live in Nebraska...come over and do it for me!!!

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## dsmalex97

Well, the fact that you haven't changed the substrate in that long is no bueno...

You should be changing the substrate every month to every other month at the most.  You need to give us more information.  What are the temps of his enclosure?  If it's too hot, or too cold you could be running into problems.  Buy a thermometer and hygrometer.  You  need to verify that all your conditions are correct.  78-83 degree's, and humidity should be up around 70%.  I have never had to fore feed, but I have watched a lot of video's on it.  It seems pretty easy.  If I did it I would back the frog up into the corner of the enclosure, take a credit card, slide it very gently on the side of his mouth and give a small push.  His jaw should crack open.  Have an earth worm ready and, when he opens put the worm in.  Just make sure to be very gentle and not press hard.  It shouldn't take much.  

Your frog definitely sounds too small.  At a year old it should be the size of a softball or so.  If he hasn't been eating for that long there could be some kind of issue inside, especially if the conditions haven't been clean.  When you feed you should also make sure to watch and see what happens.  If you keep it on moss, then that's even MORE of a reason to be VERY observant when you feed.  Moss is a tough substrate to digest, and can impact their digestive tract.  This could very well be what your problem is right now.  I'm not tring to frighten you, but make sure your temp/humidity is perfect.  Force feed it some earthworms and give it sometime.  If the frog still looks weird bring it to the vet asap.  Get it on coco fiber, or maybe even wet paper towel to ensure that your not impacting the frog even more.  Again, I don't know this for sure at all because I'm not there, but even coco fiber could cause issues.  I'm just trying to come up with a sureshot way of preventing it from happening any more if that is your issue ya know?    Please give us more information on your setup, take pictures, do you what you gotta do so we can help you with this better.

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## LIZZIE82

I have spot cleaned for sure. The temps are well within the range and I have recently gotten them a little higher. It runs between 75-80 during the day and drops to maybe 70 at night. I have a side heater. I use coco fiber on the bottom and cover with some moss to help with the humidity. I AM struggling with humidity in all of my vivs now that I have my heater kicking on. I have two humidifiers going in the house, cover half the screen with saran wrap but I can't get it much higher than 60 consistantly. I do have a hygometer as well as thermostat in there. I don't think he's impacted. I know he seems small. My sister thinks he's got failure to thrive and maybe was just doing really well where he was familiar with her.... then, I come along and turn his little world upside down.  :Frown:  I feel terrible. Also, I see people say to feed earthworms.... Where do I get those? Like, from the convenience store for bait?? Should I gave him the whole one, cut it up? I feel sooo bad. I don't want to hurt him or make things worse. Right now, he's still pouting and soaking in his dish.

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## LIZZIE82

To be clear, I have spot cleaned the viv in the last 2 months that I have had him.... I just haven't purged it all in the two months that I have had him..... Mainly, I didn't want to stress him and make him throw his lovely tantrums like he did when I got him a bigger, shallower dish. I'm really trying my best with the little guy.  :Frown:

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## Capojames

Has it ever ate?  Try to get the heat up to 85

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## Sublime

To add to dsm's post: Dust the food with calcium with d3 and a multivitamin (1:1 ratio).  Start from the bottom to the top to see where the problem is.  Disinfect tank, change out substrate, and add plants or other hides back into the enclosure.  Don't use moss anymore - coconut fiber already holds in moisture really well.

The earthworms (Night crawlers or red wigglers) can be found at: Sporting goods section of Walmart or other Sports Department stores, petco/petsmart, and reptile shops.  Just make sure if you buy from Walmart or another non-related pet store, that the worms don't have additives on them.

Glass, plexiglass, or a damp towel works well.   Try covering more of an area on your screen lid and leaving 1/4 of it open for airflow where the light fixture is.  Dropping to 70 at night isn't horrible, but that is on the low side and need to bring his appetite back up with the heat.

Just let him soak in a shallow-warm tote box or other tank while you're cleaning his main one out for like 20-30 minutes.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

You are getting good advice here. It is always hard to diagnose over the internet though. Golf-ball size is definitely small for a one year old pacman. They can grow at very different rates, but that is way behind normal growth. Lack of calcium/vitamin supplements, too much stress, not eating enough, and not having a varied diet can all contribute to that. We are not trying to point fingers by asking all these questions. We need as much info on your frog's situation as possible so we can help.

First, are you using dechlorinated water? Are there any other physical symptoms or strange behavior? If he has been eating in with the moss, then impaction is a definite possibility. Most people who use moss feed their frogs in a separate container. When was the last time he had a bowel movement? How frequent are his bowel movements and do you notice anything unusual in them (ie, moss, too much substrate, undigested food)?

Pacmans also get stressed out easily and when they do they often stop eating. You need to cause as little stress as possible. Is the room he is in too noisy? Are there any drafts from windows or air vents? Try to give him as much warmth and quiet as possible. Definitely keep the temps at 80-85 during the day. If you haven't already, you can cover 3 sides of the tank with some sort of background to minimize visual distraction/stress. Try offering worms; they are easier to digest. I know this is stressful, but you need to remain calm. Your frog will pick up on your stress. It's hard to say if it is time to force feed since you don't know exactly how long it has been since he ate. But it may be. Offer food first to see if he takes it. If you force feed, take him out of the inclosure (if you do this in the enclosure he will most likely try to burrow. Also, it is very awkward to try to reach in with your arms). Place him on some damp paper towels (sprayed with decholinated water). Keep the lights dim; bright light or too much noise will stress them out more. It is easiest if you have two people (one to hold the frog steady and the other to feed). Have one person cup the frog; he will try to back away and swat at the card most likely. The other person will gently insert a credit card or shopper card into the corner of the frog's mouth and push down a little. If he does not open his mouth, gradually increase the pressure. In your other hand have the food item ready and pressed against the frog's mouth. When he does open, it will only be for a second; you have to be quick. I've been though this; trust me it takes a few tries and it is stressful for frog and owner but it is better than watching your frog starve to death. Keep us updated.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Oh, you don't need to get the entire food item in his mouth. He may try to spit it out, but generally once you get it at least partially in their mouth they will swallow it. Good luck!

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## IvoryReptiles

Just going to add this note folks :

Spot cleaning is good for the month, month 1/2.....but after that the substrate needs to be replaced. You are only picking up feces when spot cleaning, NOT the urine. They urinate alot!! If the urine build up in the substrate, the frog will tox-out and become ill & could expire. Are you using de-chlorinated water on the frog & in the enclosure?

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## LIZZIE82

Yes, he has declorinated water. The more I look at him and the other pacman frogs on here - the more I realize mine doesn't look right. Never has. I think there is a genetic abnormality in him. My sister says that he has never thrived. Has been offered a lot of different types of food and was always content until he came to live with me. I do think he is stressed and I have tried to keep him in a quieter and darker area. The Vet told me to force feed and see if that helps. I didn't completely remove all substrate before to avoid stressing him more.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

What Ivory said above is absolutely right. They will tox out because of the amonia within their urin. It will settle in the bottom of the substrate and within it. Making the substrate poison earth. You should change the substrate no less than once a month. Any longer is putting your frog at risk. Also after you change it you should toss it once or twice a week and what I mean by toss is take the frog out and soak him for a bit while you reach in with clean washed hands and mix the substrate up. You can mist it while you toss it as well to add some fresh moisture to it and help with humidity for a while. Definetly no more moss and change the substrate no less than once a month. Ivory is a breeder so she can really give you insight on how to keep your frog as can most of us.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Yes, he has declorinated water. The more I look at him and the other pacman frogs on here - the more I realize mine doesn't look right. Never has. I think there is a genetic abnormality in him. My sister says that he has never thrived. Has been offered a lot of different types of food and was always content until he came to live with me. I do think he is stressed and I have tried to keep him in a quieter and darker area. The Vet told me to force feed and see if that helps. I didn't completely remove all substrate before to avoid stressing him more.


Fresh substrate/a soak/and force feeding him is the right track to be on now. You don't know how long its been since he has eaten so you should try and get som vitamin and calcium with D3 dusted food in him right away. Also feel his belly and right side gently. If its hard he may be impacted. Check to be sure he isn't.

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## dsmalex97

Good adivice!

Also, would it be possible for you to show us a picture of your setup?  Visuals are the best way to see what could be wrong.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Good adivice!
> 
> Also, would it be possible for you to show us a picture of your setup?  Visuals are the best way to see what could be wrong.


Definetly! If you can provide photos of you frog from different angles so we can give him a good looking over would help.

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## LIZZIE82

I'm about to force feed. He is sitting in his water still. After feeding I'm going to give him a soak in some warm water. Oh,, I bought him some repta boost from the pet store. I will give that to him for a few days. I will take some pics then.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I'm about to force feed. He is sitting in his water still. After feeding I'm going to give him a soak in some warm water. Oh,, I bought him some repta boost from the pet store. I will give that to him for a few days. I will take some pics then.


Ok remember to be gentle. Keep us posted.

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## LIZZIE82

He did really well! Actually he even opened his mouth for us when he felt the syringe the 2nd time we came at him. :-) he was hungry and ate. I then gave him some fresh water that was warmer, removed the moss, spritzed his tank with water and returned him to Viv. I placed a damp towel 3/4 over the screen, put the heating pad by zoo Med on the end of the tank by where he is in his water dish. I Have a regular heating pad kind of wrapped around It and trying to get the viv to 85 degrees. I forgot to take pics. I removed his plant and just have everything very plain in there until his health improves. He is enjoying the water it seems. I took him out and he quickly threw a fit and got right back in the water. I hope he will improve.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> He did really well! Actually he even opened his mouth for us when he felt the syringe the 2nd time we came at him. :-) he was hungry and ate. I then gave him some fresh water that was warmer, removed the moss, spritzed his tank with water and returned him to Viv. I placed a damp towel 3/4 over the screen, put the heating pad by zoo Med on the end of the tank by where he is in his water dish. I Have a regular heating pad kind of wrapped around It and trying to get the viv to 85 degrees. I forgot to take pics. I removed his plant and just have everything very plain in there until his health improves. He is enjoying the water it seems. I took him out and he quickly threw a fit and got right back in the water. I hope he will improve.


Very good job. Now you must force feed daily, but offer food first to see if hell try on his own. When or if he doesn't eat force feed him again. The water dish needs to be oposite the heat pad so he can cool off in the water if he gets too hot. They need a temperature gradient. Keep us posted. Careful not to go over 85. 85 is the day time temp. Night should be 75 to 78. Keep him at 80 tonight though. Again, well done.

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## dsmalex97

Good job!!

Keep us posted on his progress please :]

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## BG

Why is the moss still in the tank. The top screen should be switched to a glass top. Start fresh with new coco fiber. Keep him in the warmest room. The temps should be at what was said. This frog size was frozen due to bad husbandry.  Put a water dish so he can soak. Get him the earth worms and sprinkle calcium with D3 on the worms and give it to him. Try to drop it in front and see if he will go for it. Frogs love worms.

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## LIZZIE82

I got it a little over 80 degrees, removed the side heater and put it on the opposite end. He moved more towards the wall without heat but is staying in his bowl. How long can he be in his bowl?

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## BG

Let him rest a little .Theres a reason he is in the bowl. Let him be for know.


> I got it a little over 80 degrees, removed the side heater and put it on the opposite end. He moved more towards the wall without heat but is staying in his bowl. How long can he be in his bowl?

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## LIZZIE82

The moss was REMOVED. If I use a glass top then how am I supposed to get air circulation? I put in fresh coco fiber last night and sanitized the tank. I have only had the frog 2 months. If everything improves and he likes his new enclosure and everything is perfect.... will he get big?

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## BG

If you use the glass top its good. The glass top is three pieces. Two glass panels,and a plastic panel. the plastic panel is drill able. Drill holes to that piece. Or make a screen panel and replace the plastic one. This way you don't have to mist too much. Drill enough holes so mildew wont grow.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

As BG mentioned your frog is in the water dish because he wants to be in there. He may be detoxing himself/be thirsty/or have to poop. He will get out when he feels he is done. The glass top is a great idea and advice that should be fallowed. Keep the enclosre clean. Change substrate once a month. Toss the soil once a week and change the water every day and every time your frog enters the water. It must be kept clean after each time he enters it. Keep us posted.

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## LIZZIE82

He seemed OK this morning. I think he got out of the water in the middle of the night and then got back in because there was substrate in the water. He was back in there when I got up though. I cleaned the bowl, gave fresh water but didn't put him back in. I kept him on the substrate next to the bowl. It's up to him what he wants to do now. :-) I really hope he pulls through. Also, I did put a cricket in there and I couldn't find it. Hopefully he ate it. It's been raining here and I've been seeing a lot of night crawlers outside. Can I give him one? What if the ground they've been has been fertilized? Is it safe?

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> He seemed OK this morning. I think he got out of the water in the middle of the night and then got back in because there was substrate in the water. He was back in there when I got up though. I cleaned the bowl, gave fresh water but didn't put him back in. I kept him on the substrate next to the bowl. It's up to him what he wants to do now. :-) I really hope he pulls through. Also, I did put a cricket in there and I couldn't find it. Hopefully he ate it. It's been raining here and I've been seeing a lot of night crawlers outside. Can I give him one? What if the ground they've been has been fertilized? Is it safe?


Nope. Do not feed him wild caught insects and night crawlers as they might have toxins like fertilizer in them and this will harm your frog and even kill it. Its much safer to go to a pet store and buy your frogs food. If you have a Petsmart or Petco near you go there and ask for night crawlers and red wigglers. Has your frog burrowed at all and is the substrate moist not mud? On the cricket. It probably burrowed into the substrate. It is hard to say whether it was eaten unless you witnessed it.

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## LIZZIE82

I have both in my town. All they have for live food is crickets. What else can I give him? I plan on force feeding the repta boost for the next three days and then giving 3 crickets forcefully for about a week. Then, I'm going to start feeding in a feeding tank and hopefully he Will hunt/eat on his own.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I have both in my town. All they have for live food is crickets. What else can I give him? I plan on force feeding the repta boost for the next three days and then giving 3 crickets forcefully for about a week. Then, I'm going to start feeding in a feeding tank and hopefully he Will hunt/eat on his own.


Sounds like a good plan. Usually at these pet stores you have to ask for night crawlers and red wigglers. They do not have them on display. You could go t Wal-mart and see if they have night crawlers or red wigglers. You can give him meal worms and wax worms as a treat once every week or 2.

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## LIZZIE82

Force feeding of the repta boost is a success! He is actually cooperating and opening his mouth. He's still very unimpressed with all of this, though. Kinda hope he stays small because he'll get me back! ;-) I took him out of the water and moved him close to the bowl. He stayed out of it and didn't look good. I put him back in the water after feeding and he looks better. I'm going yo keep him in the water until he doesn't want to stay in, I guess. The temp is still up and I have hope he'll get better!

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## Colleen/Jerrod

If he is malnurished and under weight which he is. He will look bad and very thin. As long as you force feed him he may recover. This will take time. He needs solids too so try and force feed him crickets while using the booster too. Give him the boost and then 2 or 3 crickets. Keep it up and keep us posted.

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## LIZZIE82

Dumb question:  should I wait for him to swallow the booster and then give him crickets?  Crickets one at a time or all together? And, where exactly is his tooth?

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## IvoryReptiles

> Dumb question:  should I wait for him to swallow the booster and then give him crickets?  Crickets one at a time or all together? And, where exactly is his tooth?


Let him swallow the booster then feed the crickets one at a time. You could also try a spritz of liquid calcium in his water. He is soaking to re-hydrate and de-toxify. It will take time to bounce back and I'm sure he will grow, but he may not be as large as he should have been in the end.

The "Fangs" are on the top jaw in the very middle......the teeth are all along both top & bottom jaws, they are tiny and extremely sharp!

Pics are in this post :
http://www.frogforum.net/pacman-frogs/11109-teeth.html

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## LIZZIE82

Yikes! I feel totally comfortable messing with his mouth to force feed him after seeing those pics! ;-)

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## Colleen/Jerrod

They have some chompers on them huh Lol! Don't worry as long as your frog isn't very aggressive and you're gentle with him/her you won't be bitten unless by accident.

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## Lynn

I'm just going to follow 'Grif' around the forum and learn as much as possible !

I don't keep Pacs but this is really great information.
Thanks everyone.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I'm just going to follow 'Grif' around the forum and learn as much as possible !
> 
> I don't keep Pacs but this is really great information.
> Thanks everyone.


Lol! Thanks. I don't know whether to be flattered or stalked :Big Grin:  I'm no expert I have experience in this situation and others. I try to get as much info as possible and use my knowlege to help others if I can.

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## IvoryReptiles

> Yikes! I feel totally comfortable messing with his mouth to force feed him after seeing those pics! ;-)


Aaaawww.....anything that has a mouth can bite....even if it's gumming! LOL
So far we have only been nailed by females (they tend to be easily ticked off!)
The most damage either of us has gotten is some scraped skin, nothing horrifically gouged or bleeding profusely.
Your frog will get used to being handled too, so the danger of being bitten hard diminishes with time.
I'm sure you will do fine!

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## LIZZIE82

Day 3 of the booster: Pocket (I did not name him!) ate a meal worm!! I had my tongs out and got a meal worm, I showed him and he opened his mouth, I shoved it in there and he ate! I then gave him the booster but I was kind of going in from the side and he has a BIG mouth, lol and a lot came out of the side. I opened him up and gave him 1/2 another dose. I tried with another meal worm and he spit it out and thrashed around... I tried one more time....he kept it in his mouth, spit it out, threw another fit and I decided that I needed to leave him alone.I gave him fresh water, upped his temperature and covered up the viv so he can de-stress again. He's currently sitting in his fresh water. If I look in there he turns around, lol. Tomorrow, I'm going to give him some crickets and the booster. I'm going to try to post some pics of him that I took before he ate today. He still doesn't look so hot. :-(

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## LIZZIE82

Meet Pocket!

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Awe, what a little cutie!! He is definitely undersized for his age. But it sounds like he packs quite the attitude in that little body! It can take them a long time to recover and rebuild their fat stores. A fat cell will never completely go away once it has been developed, but if it has been depleted it takes awhile to build it back up. When Grif was sick and we had to force feed her it was over two months before she looked "healthy" again (which in pacman terms means chubby). It can be hard to tell exactly how much of a frog's mass is fat and how much is water. Most of the time when you see a pac bloated looking it is due to water weight. Keep up what you are doing. Get those calories and vitamins in him. He needs the nourishment. Keep a close eye on him, but it sounds like he will be fine. Again, he is adorable!

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## LIZZIE82

Yes, he has an attitude! I fed him 1.5 doses of the booster this evening. I gave him three wax worms and I was thinking he was eating them.... then, He opened his mouth and spit them all out! SIGH. I ended up getting him to eat 1.5 and left him alone. I came back a few hours and got him to eat one more. I also switched around around his bowls and gave him one that might let him get in and out easier. He has a lot more energy. He has started to push my tongs and syringe away.... with his front arms and back legs! His eyes look brighter I'm hopeful. I'm still having problems keeping his temperature up. When I moved him from his feeding bowl to soaking bowl I used my bare hands since I was out of gloves and he was cold to the touch.  :Frown:  I have a sticky heater on the side and I have put a heating pad on the bottom and side and wrapped it in a towl to insulate. Any other ideas to help with the humidity and heat? Also, he has not pooped yet. He doesn't leave his bowl so I would know if he did... I started to force feed 4 days ago and he had a few solids yesterday and today. I should see that soon, right? 

Thanks again for all the help!

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## LIZZIE82

Here is Pocket's "hospital" tank. LoL I hope he gets better soon! I had to eat dinner the other day standing up since he's on my dining room chair! Ah, the things we do for our lil friends! Also, I'm attaching a pic of one of my American Green Frogs... That way you can see that I have at least ONE healthy frog, lol. That is my little Charlotte. She is the bully of my tank of greens.  :Smile:  She likes to steal favorite corners of the tank....and, forget walking AROUND one of the other frogs.... no way, she will just step on them! :Smile:  She's funny though!

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## Colleen/Jerrod

You shouldn't place a heat pad on the bottom incase he/she tries to burrow. They burrow to cool off and to sleep. If he/she felt too hot and burrowed over the pad he/she wouldn't understand why he/she couldn't cool off. Even though you have a sharp eye on him/her and don't see him leaving his dish doesn't mean he won't. When he is healthy it would be good to keep the pads on the sides. You're doing good with Pocket. He/she will take a little longer to fully digest and pass the food. The booster isn't a solid so it would take a lot to accumulate into a solid. The meal worms take a while because their exoskeleton cannot be digested by the frog and are natorious for causing impaction. Too many is bad. Crickets would be better or earth worms. Wax worms are very high in fat but have no nutritional value. Too many of those are bad as well. You can actually buy a cat/dog food that is canned and formulated for malnurished cats and dogs. You have to make sure is a solid not shredded or chopped. These kinds can be sucked up in a seringe and fed to your frog. If you want to go that route. This way you know he/she is getting plenty of solids. It could take your frog up to a week and a half to poop since he/she was pretty much completely empty. Keep up the good work. Getting a feeding responce from him/her is good. Also Charlotte looks very nice and yes very healthy.

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## LIZZIE82

I have a hard time catching the crickets. ... that's why I haven't given those. What dog/cat food would you suggest exactly?  That seems like a really good option with the booster, dog food and a few crickets. I moved the heating pad off the bottom and have it on the side now.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I have a hard time catching the crickets. ... that's why I haven't given those. What dog/cat food would you suggest exactly?  That seems like a really good option with the booster, dog food and a few crickets. I moved the heating pad off the bottom and have it on the side now.


I think its Royal canine or Royal Crown. I can't remember the name. I believe Petsmart carries it though. Its Royal something. Lol! I can't believe I forgot the name of that food. Anyway look for that brand. Its what my vet gave to me to use and it worked well.

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## LIZZIE82

Just another update: Pocket pooped! LoL... He's got a lot more energy, and while I'm relieved... he's just making life difficult. He fights me like crazy to eat, will NOT open his mouth, turns around, thrashes around, well you get the idea. He's still not interested in eating on his own and will SPIT OUT EVERYTHING solid I have given him. SIGH. I will try again with some crickets tomorrow. Wish me luck!

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## Colleen/Jerrod

That's is good that he pooped! As frustrating as it may be that he is resisting, it at least shows that he is gaining strength. Hopefully it is an indication that he will eat on his own soon. Grif got very resistent about force feeding right before she started eating on her own again. Keep offering food and try to keep hiw stress down. Good luck!

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## LIZZIE82

I'm SO frustrated. Pocket is doing better and has a lot more energy. He's now impossible to feed though. Tonight, he would NOT open his mouth. Period. End of story. Kept turning around and was just being awful. I poked him in the eye at least three times by accident. I got fed up, put him in a kritter keeper with a paper towel and 6 crickets to see if he would eat. I put him in a dark room... came to check on him about 30 mins later and he was on his back!! I think he was throwing one his famous tantrums and hit the side of the keeper and fliped himself over and couldn't get back over. I tried to feed him again by force and he refused again. I put him back in his tank, in a clean water dish, upped the temp and covered him up. I'm still pretty upset over this. I thought we were doing soo good. Last night, he ate his booster, 3 crickets and I put him in his tank and he was really looking good. He's starting to fill out and I looked back on pics of him a week ago compared to now.... You can really tell the difference. Now, he's being stubborn and I'm afraid this is what he is going to do every night. Not to mention, Im sure my neighbors could hear me... and are now wondering why I keep calling my pocket a brat!  :Wink:

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## Sublime

Actually, your frog being found on his or her back is a sign of them being stressed.  From the scenario you gave us, it seems like there is too much human contact and moving into another bin to eat.  Let him chill for a few days in his normal tank with a few crickets periodically and don't get yourself so stressed out.  Especially if you're yelling real loud, it could be bothersome to him and he'll refuse to eat.  They have ear drums too  :Smile: .

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I'm SO frustrated. Pocket is doing better and has a lot more energy. He's now impossible to feed though. Tonight, he would NOT open his mouth. Period. End of story. Kept turning around and was just being awful. I poked him in the eye at least three times by accident. I got fed up, put him in a kritter keeper with a paper towel and 6 crickets to see if he would eat. I put him in a dark room... came to check on him about 30 mins later and he was on his back!! I think he was throwing one his famous tantrums and hit the side of the keeper and fliped himself over and couldn't get back over. I tried to feed him again by force and he refused again. I put him back in his tank, in a clean water dish, upped the temp and covered him up. I'm still pretty upset over this. I thought we were doing soo good. Last night, he ate his booster, 3 crickets and I put him in his tank and he was really looking good. He's starting to fill out and I looked back on pics of him a week ago compared to now.... You can really tell the difference. Now, he's being stubborn and I'm afraid this is what he is going to do every night. Not to mention, Im sure my neighbors could hear me... and are now wondering why I keep calling my pocket a brat!


Remember what I said about staying calm and to be patient with Pocket? You are doing exactly what he doesn't need now. Too much stress is bad. If you yell and get aggrivated you're going to make things worse. Poking him in the eye is really going to stress him out. You yourself are making things more difficult than it actually is. Don't rush when trying to force feed. You're going to injure him. If he refuses to eat and acts stressed like flipping on his back then stop and place him in his home and let him be til the next night. Fighting with him will most definetly make things worse. Never yell. He can hear and your tone combined with him being able to sence your emotions will severly complicate his reaction to you and he will fight you more. He will fear you and not see you as helping anymore. CALM DOWN! Keep us posted.

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## LIZZIE82

I know, I feel really bad. I lost my cool due to all the other stress I'm under. He was doing well this morning. I think he will probably eat tonight. He probably felt my stress and responded. Poor Guy. :-(

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I know, I feel really bad. I lost my cool due to all the other stress I'm under. He was doing well this morning. I think he will probably eat tonight. He probably felt my stress and responded. Poor Guy. :-(


Don't lose your cool. You have to be patient and yes I'm sure that he responded accordingly to your frustration. They ars stubborn animals and if they don't want something they aren't going to take it. You have to be focused when force feeding because you have to be quick. And if you're stressing yourself then you're stressing him and your not going to be able to get the food in his mouth because you're trying too hard and he's going to move away and refuse. This time around be extremely gentle and when you speak to him do it with a soft voice. Be caring and show him that you're not trying to harm him and are trying to help. I always would show Grif the food before I would try to force feed to prepare he so she knew what I was going to do. You should do the same. Even with the seringe of booster. They are much more responcive if they already know what it is you're trying to do.

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## LIZZIE82

Update: I came home from work this afternoon and I tried again with Pocket. I apoligized to the little guy and I think he forgave me. He ate hs booster, 2 crickets and a wax worm. I've got a lot of stress in my own personal life right now.... I think he has been feeling that. I still feel really bad.

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## LIZZIE82

I'm wondering if it's normal for my frog to smell? Or, does he maybe Have an infection? I smell something that I would describe as fishy smelling. His water is changed at least daily. His substrate is clean. I smell it When I have him out for feedings. I normally rinse him after he's done eating and then place him back in his fresh water.... thanks!

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I'm wondering if it's normal for my frog to smell? Or, does he maybe Have an infection? I smell something that I would describe as fishy smelling. His water is changed at least daily. His substrate is clean. I smell it When I have him out for feedings. I normally rinse him after he's done eating and then place him back in his fresh water.... thanks!


Does he urinate when you get him out? You could be smelling amonia if he does. Signs of an infection on the dermal tissue or skin would be apparent and show. Really reddish areas on the skin also sores and dry flakes of skin. Red leg is a bacterial infection in which the thighs will appear severly red from the bacteria bursting blood vessles. Other syptoms to red leg are loss of appetite/bloating/listlessness/and lythargy. It could also be from the booster. You have to give the correct dosage to weight. Most of them tell you how much to give your frog based on its weight. Too much can be harmful as these supplements contain lots of vitamins which could build up in your frogs system and harm of kill him. It is possible that this is where the smell is coming from.

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## LIZZIE82

> Does he urinate when you get him out? You could be smelling amonia if he does. Signs of an infection on the dermal tissue or skin would be apparent and show. Really reddish areas on the skin also sores and dry flakes of skin. Red leg is a bacterial infection in which the thighs will appear severly red from the bacteria bursting blood vessles. Other syptoms to red leg are loss of appetite/bloating/listlessness/and lythargy. It could also be from the booster. You have to give the correct dosage to weight. Most of them tell you how much to give your frog based on its weight. Too much can be harmful as these supplements contain lots of vitamins which could build up in your frogs system and harm of kill him. It is possible that this is where the smell is coming from.


I don't know if he urinates when I take him out.... What I normally do is soak up the water in his dish (he still hangs out in his dish) with paper towels, put him on a bench to feed him in that dish and after he's done eating, I put him in a new (sanitized dish.) I do rinse him with water before I trans him though. There aren't any visible signs of infection. In fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't have one. I really think it's the booster that is making the smell. I'm giving him the proper dosage. He doesn't have red leg.

He is doing REALLY well! He ate three crickets last night and tonight. He had his booster, too. Still won't eat on his own. He looks really good compared to how he looked when I started to to feed the booster. His color is much better and his belly is really getting big (no, he's not impacted.) His attitude is getting worse, lol, and his cooperation is next to nothing  :Smile:  I'll take it, though! I just want him to be healthy.

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## LIZZIE82

Well, he is out of his water dish. He got out of it earlier and he was kind of pressed against the glass on the wrong side...I put him back in the dish and I just went to check on him.....he's out again, sitting on his substrate. He pooped again, I cleaned his water dish, gave him fresh water and made sure his dish was flush against the substrate so it's easy to get in and out of. I'M NERVOUS!! We've got a cold front coming through and the heater is coming on and I'm struggling with humidity in all my vivs. I'm misting all tanks and I have TWO humidifiers going and the humidity drops so quick! I hope he gets back in the water. I guess I will have my neighbor come up and mist him if he doesn't burrow by morning. Wish us luck....I knew he was feeling better but I wish he'd stay where I know he's safe!

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## Sublime

Probably not a great idea to wash him down (stress and any frog being washed down would be irritated), unless what you're talking about is just putting him in a bowl?  The smell seems to me like some sort of bacterial disease (infectious) would be my guess.  I'm sorry if I missed one of your comments about you changing his tank regularly, but how often do you change it?  Just try to keep everything clean and sanitary in his tank for now.  Smell the booster content and then smell him - that's easy to determine.

Good that you notice signs of him being better.  Howcome you take him out of his water dish?  How often do you check up on him?  Do you place any type of screen covering to keep moisture from evaporating quickly?  Heaters will reduce some relative humidity, but not by much.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Probably not a great idea to wash him down (stress and any frog being washed down would be irritated), unless what you're talking about is just putting him in a bowl?  The smell seems to me like some sort of bacterial disease (infectious) would be my guess.  I'm sorry if I missed one of your comments about you changing his tank regularly, but how often do you change it?  Just try to keep everything clean and sanitary in his tank for now.  Smell the booster content and then smell him - that's easy to determine.
> 
> Good that you notice signs of him being better.  Howcome you take him out of his water dish?  How often do you check up on him?  Do you place any type of screen covering to keep moisture from evaporating quickly?  Heaters will reduce some relative humidity, but not by much.


Mark is right about washing the frog down. That would stress him. You shouldn't take him in and out of his water dish all the time. You already have to handle him while force feeding. If he gets out of the water then he doesn't want to be in there anymore and that is fine. Keep the substrate moist and he will not dehydrate. Definetly cover part of the top of the enclosure with a damp cloth to help maintain humidity levels within the enclosure. Try not to handle him more than is necissary otherwise you risk stressing him more and he will take longer to recover. Do as Mark said and smell the booster. If the smells are similar then it is more than likely the booster. I've noticed that Grif smells like the Hornworm food when she eats Hornworms so it is very possible that the frog is secreting some of the booster when producing mucus(the frogs slime layer).

Also as Mark said cleanliness is a huge factor in your frogs recovery. I would change the substrate every 2 weeks and disinfect the enclosure until he fully recovers.

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## LIZZIE82

I don't dunk him to rinse him off....I rinse him off with a little water b/c the booster normally gets spit out and I don't want it in the fresh water... it's just a squirt of water on the needed parts. I can't hold him and force feed him. I use a gift card with one hand, tongs in the other for crickets. I also don't like to handle my frogs. I check on him throughout the night, before I leave fir work and first thing when I get home. My neighbor will come up and check on him and text me with a report. He's doing really well now. He's out of his water dish again tonight and starting to burrow in the substrate. He ate well today, too. He's getting fatter! I really love my little guy... I want him to be healthy but I kind of hope he stays small (okay, smaller.)  :Smile:

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I don't dunk him to rinse him off....I rinse him off with a little water b/c the booster normally gets spit out and I don't want it in the fresh water... it's just a squirt of water on the needed parts. I can't hold him and force feed him. I use a gift card with one hand, tongs in the other for crickets. I also don't like to handle my frogs. I check on him throughout the night, before I leave fir work and first thing when I get home. My neighbor will come up and check on him and text me with a report. He's doing really well now. He's out of his water dish again tonight and starting to burrow in the substrate. He ate well today, too. He's getting fatter! I really love my little guy... I want him to be healthy but I kind of hope he stays small (okay, smaller.)


Keep up the good work and he'll be fine.

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## LIZZIE82

Thanks everyone for the help in this thread!! Pocket is looking really good! I was looking back on pics of him when I first started to force feed him..... Gosh, poor little guy. He looked really bad.  :Frown:  Now, he's fat, looks like he is growing is very animated and full of attitude! I think you all helped save his life!! I have started up a new thread with some questions so I can keep him healthy!

Thanks again! Pocket thanks you all, too! He wasn't thrilled with me and my gift card opening his mouth every day....but, I'm sure he appreciates feeling better!

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## Sherry

Yay! I have been following this thread every day and hoping he would get better.  I would have liked to help but I don't know anything about pac man frogs.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Thanks everyone for the help in this thread!! Pocket is looking really good! I was looking back on pics of him when I first started to force feed him..... Gosh, poor little guy. He looked really bad.  Now, he's fat, looks like he is growing is very animated and full of attitude! I think you all helped save his life!! I have started up a new thread with some questions so I can keep him healthy!
> 
> Thanks again! Pocket thanks you all, too! He wasn't thrilled with me and my gift card opening his mouth every day....but, I'm sure he appreciates feeling better!


You are very welcome and we enjoy helping whenever we can. I hate to hear people having trouble with their frogs and not knowing what to do. Its hard to see them in a state of pain or illness. I hope he recovers fully and becomes an eating machine.

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