# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Beginner Discussion >  Darts for the dedicated beginner?

## Baelari

So, after realizing dart frogs can be kept as pets, and seeing your beautiful vivariums, I've decided that I'd like to set up one of my own. I've read a little on vivarium building and dart frog care, and plan on doing a lot more, but I think I need to have a frog in mind to design the vivarium for. (I haven't even picked up a tank yet, the possibilities!)

I'd like a bold species that's brightly colored, preferably in red if possible. I haven't been able to find much on color morphs or behaviors of commonly kept species, but I know I've seen pictures of little red frogs before. Any suggestions? I would be a very attentive caregiver to these guys, I just need to know what their specific requirements are before I start building and planting. I'm not in a rush; I want to do this right.

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## Michael

Well I can't recommend a bold red frog as I don't know of any, not that there are not some.  I can however recommend the _Dendrobates tinctorius_ 'Azureus' which is a blue with black spots.  It is easy to keep if you follow the proper requirements and is very bold.  Keep  researching and I'm sure you will find something that fits your needs.

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## bshmerlie

There are a lot of red Pumilios.  Check out the website www.sndartfrogs.com
He has some great pictures of all the different ones.

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## clownonfire

Would you be talking about the strawberry poison frog (_Oophaga pumilio_)? 



You can find some _O. pumilio "El Dorado"_ in the hobby (reddish/orange). An amazing one. They are a bit pricey, not extremely bold though.

I would suggest something easier to start off with. The _Phyllobates terribilis "Orange"_ would make the perfect choice. Hardy, extremely bold, and grows larger than other dart frogs. It's also easier to care for as they will eat crickets as adults, and not just fruit flies and microfauna. Again, you'll find some in the hobby at around $100-$125.



Eric

PS: Images are from Google.

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## bshmerlie

Well...he didn't specify  "cheap" red frogs  :Big Grin: 
I just like Simply Natural Dart Frogs website because they show great pictures of all the color morphs on the same page.

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## Baelari

(I'm a she  :Frog Smile: )

Yep. It was pumilios I saw, one of the Cristobal morphs. Maybe I'll wait on them for my second or third vivarium. I'm sure I won't be satisfied with just one. 

Pricey indeed, sometimes I think I'm cursed for everything I like to turn expensive. At least if I stop eating out so dang much, I can save up for them while I build.

I do like the orange terribilis, and they do well in groups. Would they eat baby dubias too?

The azureus and the turquoise auratus have also made the shortlist. I'm afraid I'm going to have a frog-buying problem eventually, so if you see me on an A&E documentary show, you'll know what happened. (Well, some of you will probably be on there with me.)

Also, is it difficult to find people to take baby frogs off your hands? I won't have the space for an ever-multiplying colony of frogs if they decide to have lots of tadpoles.

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## clownonfire

> (I'm a she )
> 
> Yep. It was pumilios I saw, one of the Cristobal morphs. Maybe I'll wait on them for my second or third vivarium. I'm sure I won't be satisfied with just one. 
> 
> Pricey indeed, sometimes I think I'm cursed for everything I like to turn expensive. At least if I stop eating out so dang much, I can save up for them while I build.
> 
> I do like the orange terribilis, and they do well in groups. Would they eat baby dubias too?
> 
> The azureus and the turquoise auratus have also made the shortlist. I'm afraid I'm going to have a frog-buying problem eventually, so if you see me on an A&E documentary show, you'll know what happened. (Well, some of you will probably be on there with me.)
> ...


Terribs are voracious eaters and will try and eat basically anything of the right size handed to them. I have conferred with a hobbyist friend of mine (hi again, Corey) and she said that baby dubias could be used as feeders for terribs. And: "_...bowl feed them for your sanity of having less running around the tank..._". 

As for finding people to take your froglets, my dear friend... That should be the least of your concerns.... Although I personally would not hand out my frogs to just anyone.... 

Eric

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## Baelari

The terribs sound like a good match for me, especially since my dubias would be a supplementary/backup food source for when my flies inevitably crash.

And I wouldn't hand them out to just anyone, which is why I worry about hypothetically finding people to give them good homes.

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## bshmerlie

Trust me with dart frogs thats not going to be a problem. This is an addictive hobby and there is always someone looking to aquire new frogs.  I'll take any and all dart frogs you wish to donate.   :Big Grin:

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## Baelari

That's good. I've always loved seeing tadpoles in the spring, and would love to have them at home too. Do they raise their tadpoles in the tank, or do you need to raise them yourself?

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## Tony

> You can find some _O. pumilio "El Dorado"_ in the hobby (reddish/orange). An amazing one. They are a bit pricey, not extremely bold though.


Mine are as bold as any of my tincs. Pumilio are not the best starter darts, but if that's what you really want then El Dorado are a good choice, easily one of the largest and boldest of the commonly available morphs.

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## Tony

> That's good. I've always loved seeing tadpoles in the spring, and would love to have them at home too. Do they raise their tadpoles in the tank, or do you need to raise them yourself?


Depends on the species. _Oophaga_ species must be allowed to raise their own tads, _Ranitomeya_ may be raised by the parents or artificially, _Dendrobates_, _Phyllobates_, _Epipedobates_ and their relatives will transport tads but provide no further care, you can pull them out or design the tank with water features that allow the tads to grow on their own, feeding on algae, detritus, drowned feeders, etc.

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## Baelari

I'm leaning toward the _P. terribilis_, so a water feature may be appropriate. 

Other than John's Dart Frog Terrarium Building article over there, do you know of any good links to good care or vivarium articles?

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## Tony

Eric is our local expert on _P. terribilis_, I'm sure he'll be happy to help you get started.

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## bshmerlie

Eric was even working on writing a care sheet for them.  He may have already gathered enough information already to give you a jump start.  PM him I'm sure he would glad to help you out.  I'm also very glad you are going with the boldest frog you can get.  I think people often overlook the importance of that and go with beauty instead.  But then they have a frog that hides from them instead of entertaining them.

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## clownonfire

Tony, for some reasons, I was told that Pums were not extremely bold. Now perhaps this when compared to terribs which will stand all day in front of my viv rarely hiding...

As for a caresheet, I didn't have the time. I will with time... 

I can definitely help you start with terribs... I knew of one great breeder in the state but he has closed shop.... I will gather a few more names, but anyone who would like to help out with this one, by all means. As for the rest, I'll write back later on with more...

Eric

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## Tony

> Tony, for some reasons, I was told that Pums were not extremely bold. Now perhaps this when compared to terribs which will stand all day in front of my viv rarely hiding...


Some are, some aren't, there is a lot of variability between morphs. My El Dorado are very bold, my Cauchero are a bit shy, and my Almirante and San Cristobals are somewhere in between.





> I can definitely help you start with terribs... I knew of one great breeder in the state but he has closed shop.... I will gather a few more names, but anyone who would like to help out with this one, by all means. As for the rest, I'll write back later on with more...


Ask Mike, he'll know where Aaron's frogs went.

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## clownonfire

> Ask Mike, he'll know where Aaron's frogs went.


It's exactly who I was thinking of. I know Mark Pepper is working now with _P. terribilis "Mint"_ from Aaron's line, but his "Orange" ones are from the Netherlands. But he doesn't haver any froglets but "Yellow" ones right now anyway...

I'll ask Mike tonight...

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## clownonfire

Baelari, _Phyllobates terribilis_, the golden poison frog, is a frog from Columbia. In the wild, they are extremely lethal, and loose their toxicity in captivity as their poison is from their diet (here's a fun fact... according to AmphibiaWeb.com: "_Phyllobates terribilis is the most highly toxic of all frogs_").  They are also the largest species of the dart frogs (my juveniles right now are as big as some _Dendrobates tinctorius azureus_ adults I have seen). You will find _Phyllobates terribilis_ in three morphs:  "Yelllow", "Mint" and "Orange" (_Phyllobates terribilis_ and _Phyllobates bicolor_ are two different species). 

One of the reasons they are often suggested for new frog enthusiasts is that terribs are extremely voracious, and because of their larger size, they can eat a wider variety of feeders: from fruit flies to 3/8 crickets (I personally did not see them eat springtails even when these were gathered close to the water from my waterfall, nor were they very interested in D. melanogaster - microfauna in general). D. hydei is my staple food of choice, and right now as I'm feeding an excited bunch of 6 juvies, 2 weeks old crickets, dusted. 

_Phyllobates terribilis_ are social frogs and will do very well in groups. Actually, if you are going this route, I would advise you to get a trio minimum. The rule of thumbs with these frogs is one frog per 10 gallons. You will hear 1 frog per 5 gallons, but I think that's bullocks. Currently, I have 6 juvies in a 50-gallon tank. Once adult, I will move them to a larger tank, even though they are not as territorial as other dart frogs. 

Terribs are terrestrial frogs, so when you will work on your tank, work mostly on floor space (as juvies though, they will be climbing everywhere, so just be warned - I had one frog escaping a few months back and mauled by one of our cats, but that is a different story). Your tanks should be maintained at 80%+ humidity, and don't be afraid to go as high as 90%. Being from rainforest, terribs will enjoy a "wetter" tank, as opposed to _D. tinctorius_ frogs who like it humid but not necessarily wet. Lots of plants. Temperature wise, keep your tank lower than 80°F. These frogs are more sensitive to higher temperatures.

Now if you want to create a real biotope, I'll have to write you back with a list of plants that come from 
Columbia, and specifically from La Brea and Rio Saija. Personally, I use bromeliads (mine will often sleep in the broms at night in group), Alocasia, Hypoestes, Ficus pumila and I tried baby's tears but it did not survive although I know some which planted these with success.

I do have a waterfall, but I have disabled it for the moment. _Phyllobates terribilis_ get sexually mature later than other dart frogs... it can anywhere between 12-18 months. Once they are ready to breed, I will activate the waterfall again as has been shown to help during the breeding season. I'll write you later about the breeding part as this is getting lengthy (for breeding, I have heard that a higher ratio of male will help as it will promote competition amongst males).

If you need help on how to build a tank from scratch, let me know. John Clare owns a few terribs himself... Here's his thread. 

Terribs are great frogs. They are active, they look fierce. My wife likes to say they look evil, or intense like a Bald Eagle look intense. It's true. And they won't go hiding if you approach the tank, they will just hop away. 

Hope this help!

Eric

PS French is my first language. I didn't take time to revise my syntax, etc... So please bear with my bad English.

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## dtfleming

Sean Stewart is a good source for terribilis and alphaprobreeders

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## clownonfire

> Sean Stewart is a good source for terribilis and alphaprobreeders


Thanks Don. You're right. 

Here's a link for you, Baelari: Frogs main. It's an older article though.

I will also write you back as to where you can find Aaron's line of terribs. You can then make your choice.

Eric

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## bshmerlie

I already checked with Alphapro breeders.  They are out of Oranges right now. Although they have some pretty cool looking strawberrys.   :Big Grin:

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## Baelari

Thanks for all the help  :Smile: 

It seems like petco is due for another 1$ per gallon sale if they do them about twice a year. I think I might wait for it and get a tank then. I think a 40 gallon breeder would be as big as I could fit into my apartment with a little rearranging. Do you think think this would be too ambitious to start with, or is it easier to plant and plan at this size?

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## Tony

Bigger is better. I am in the process of redoing my darts in either 33x17x20 (about 50 gallons) or 45x17x20 (65 gallons) custom tanks. Having a larger enclosure allows for more options in hardscaping and planting, increased surface for microfauna to colonize, and the creation of more stable microhabitats (areas of higher or lower temperature, humidity, light, etc.) than a small enclosure.

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## clownonfire

> Bigger is better. I am in the process of redoing my darts in either 33x17x20 (about 50 gallons) or 45x17x20 (65 gallons) custom tanks. Having a larger enclosure allows for more options in hardscaping and planting, increased surface for microfauna to colonize, and the creation of more stable microhabitats (areas of higher or lower temperature, humidity, light, etc.) than a small enclosure.


I agree with Tony. The bigger the better. Don't be afraid to try different settings with your tank before the frogs arrive. If you can play with it, plant it, rearrange it a few times if needed, and seed springtails a good month before the frogs arrive, you will have a good idea of how well the humidity is controled in it, and the temp, and springtails will have a bit of time to colonize... And it's better to do any adjustments before the arrival of the frogs.

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