# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > Beginner Discussion >  Thinking about Dart's

## sleepingwolf1772

Hello all new to the forum and somewhat new to amphibians.  I have been thinking about buying my first frog for a while now and am considering Darts as a first, Dendrobates Auratus to be specific. Now I have been doing a ton of research on Dart's and many other frogs so that I will know how to take care of them.      

 I just have a few questions about Darts.  As of now I have a 20 gallon tank I will house them in if I get them.  I plan on making the Terrarium for what ever frog I purchase before I actually get them so that I will know if it will be right for them. I will be checking the humidity and temp levels for a while before I make a purchase as well as stocking up on what I will need to create the Terrarium and take care of the frog. I am fairly certain that I would be able to properly care for them but I dont want to get in over my head, hence why I am doing tons of research.

As for the questions, Is what I stated above a good Idea to do before  getting the frogs?
Also I know that Dart's are mainly fed wingless fruit flys however I have seen people feeding them spring tails. Is this a good food source for them?  As for the species Dendrobates Auratus I am under the assumption that you can keep multiple unsexed frog's in one Terrarium? If so would 2 to 3 maybe even 4 be alright in a 20 gallon tank?

Also even though this will be my first amphibian I have helped care for them before and know a little about what they require to live and be healthy. Also keep in mind that I am still doing tons of research before I purchase any frog.

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## JimO

> Hello all new to the forum and somewhat new to amphibians. I have been thinking about buying my first frog for a while now and am considering Darts as a first, Dendrobates Auratus to be specific. Now I have been doing a ton of research on Dart's and many other frogs so that I will know how to take care of them. 
> 
> I just have a few questions about Darts. As of now I have a 20 gallon tank I will house them in if I get them. I plan on making the Terrarium for what ever frog I purchase before I actually get them so that I will know if it will be right for them. I will be checking the humidity and temp levels for a while before I make a purchase as well as stocking up on what I will need to create the Terrarium and take care of the frog. I am fairly certain that I would be able to properly care for them but I dont want to get in over my head, hence why I am doing tons of research.
> 
> As for the questions, Is what I stated above a good Idea to do before getting the frogs?
> Also I know that Dart's are mainly fed wingless fruit flys however I have seen people feeding them spring tails. Is this a good food source for them? As for the species Dendrobates Auratus I am under the assumption that you can keep multiple unsexed frog's in one Terrarium? If so would 2 to 3 maybe even 4 be alright in a 20 gallon tank?
> 
> Also even though this will be my first amphibian I have helped care for them before and know a little about what they require to live and be healthy. Also keep in mind that I am still doing tons of research before I purchase any frog.


I've kept dart frogs for a number of years, including auratus. I have a breeding pair in a 29-gal viv. Although any dart frog will gladly eat springtails, the staple food is fruit flies, supplemented with the occasional termite, pinhead (very tiny) cricket and even tiny meal worms. Springtails are tiny and it would be tough to keep them adequately fed with springtails.  A lot of folks keep leaf litter over the substrate and seed the substrate with springtails to build up a population within the viv, but they aren't necessary to keep auratus or other larger darts.

You'll need to dust the food with calcium and vitamin supplements. I use Repashy Calcium (can't remember the precise name). A 20-gal is okay for several juvenile frogs, but I would keep no more than one pair of auratus in a 20-gal when they are adults.

Auratus and other larger ground-dwelling darts are territorial, so keeping more than a single pair in a smaller tank can result in aggression and the loss of one or more of the frogs as they grow to adult size. I've never kept Leucomelas, but understand that they can be kept in small groups of 3 or 4, but again you would need a larger tank. 

I have no doubt that you can easily care for them and even get them to breed if you have a pair. You might consider spending more money on fewer frogs and either buy a sexed pair or three sub-adults (in the hopes of getting a pair), rather than buying 5 or 6 small froglets. The froglets are more fragile and if you get, say, five and they all survive, you will be faced with setting up at least a second vivarium.  Be sure to get good quality frogs from a reliable source.  Most folks try to avoid hybrids of different forms of a given species from a given location.  There are a lot of reputable breeders you can deal with, but be careful buying from a pet store unless you can find out some info on the supplier/breeder.

There are many good caresheets and instructions for all imagineable vivarium designs available here and on other sites.

If you have any other specific questions, let me know. I'd be happy to share what I know. Good luck.

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## John Clare

Jim gave you sound advice but here's my spin on it.




> I will be checking the humidity and temp levels for a while before I make a purchase as well as stocking up on what I will need to create the Terrarium and take care of the frog. I am fairly certain that I would be able to properly care for them but I dont want to get in over my head, hence why I am doing tons of research.


I applaud you for doing your research.  In my opinion, humidity gauges are of limited value because they are notoriously inaccurate.  It's easiest to start with no ventilation or close to it, and then see how you do.  Darts are one of the few groups of frogs that don't require good ventilation.




> As for the questions, Is what I stated above a good Idea to do before  getting the frogs?


Definitely.




> Also I know that Dart's are mainly fed wingless fruit flys however I have seen people feeding them spring tails. Is this a good food source for them?


Not wingless necessarily, but unable to fly.  Have a look at our fruit fly care article (linked on every page of the forum on the left and in the Care Info menu at the top).

As for springtails, I only use them for very young frogs.  However, I do populate the terrarium of adults with springs and these generally breed well and provide extra food for the frogs.




> As for the species Dendrobates Auratus I am under the assumption that you can keep multiple unsexed frog's in one Terrarium? If so would 2 to 3 maybe even 4 be alright in a 20 gallon tank?


I wouldn't keep more than 3 in a 20 high.  4 would probably be alright if it's landscaped well.  As for them getting along, auratus aren't completely unterritorial but they get on much better than tinctorius.  Males do like to wrestle though, and females may eat each other's eggs.

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## sleepingwolf1772

Thank you all for the help!  I am thinking about buying three sub adults since I will be building a larger Terrarium in the future.  I was already planning on culturing fruit flys before I even got any Frog. I was also planning on populating the Terrarium with springtails just for extra food.  I have also been looking at Leucomela, so more research it is!  I have been looking at all of the caresheets for them and I must say they are very helpful.

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## JimO

You seem to be far better prepared than I was when I got my first dart frogs about 10 years ago (a group of juvenile azureus), but, sadly, I made a lot of mistakes and ended up losing them over time.  A few years later I did my homework and have had great success.

I'm sure you'll do great with whatever species you choose.  I wish I knew more about Leucs so I could point you in the right direction, but I've never kept them.  However, I'm going to a local get together and swapping five of my green&black auratus tads for five leuc tads.  I'm pretty excited.

There are some great folks here who know a lot more than I do.  I'm sure you can get specific info on Leucs from someone.

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## sleepingwolf1772

Thank you once again for the info. You will have to let me know how it goes with the Leucs. Right now Im still reading alot about them. I found out that a very good reptile and amphibian store near me sells Darts so I am planning on going there tomorrow to see all the frogs and do more research
I have one more question, its more of a Terrarium question but I was hoping you all could help out. I have heard alot about .drainage with the tanks. My Terrarium will of course have a false bottom. I have been wondering if people put a drain plug in the bottom of the tank? I dont know if it is something that needs to be done or people just do.

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## John Clare

What part of TN are you in?  Knoxville is home to the tinc lady (nx2ured on here).

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## sleepingwolf1772

I live just outside of Nashville.

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## Alpha Pro Breeders

Be Careful, Dart frogs are very addicting. Auratus are one of my favorites, but I hate to see people get them as their first dart frog. They are on average much shier than most darts and I have seen many times people loose interest for this reason. When I'm asked I personally recommend Galacts as the best first frog, always out and very entertaining.

www.alphaprobreeders.com

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## Kurt

I think most people start out with _Dendrobates auratus_ because they are generally cheaper than a lot of other dart frogs.

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## sleepingwolf1772

The price for me was going to be an added bonus. I started looking into Auratus because of their coloration and I wanted a group that I wouldnt have to worry about 2 females hurting each other.

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## John Clare

I'll see your galactanotus and raise you some terribilis.  If you want a very visible frog, terribilis wins in my opinion.  However, they are not as active as tincs - terribs tend to stay stock still most of the time.  If you're game, look through the morphs/races of tincs and see what one you like in particular, and try those.  The only downside to tincs is you can't keep them in groups - 1 male and 1 female is about the only safe option.  At least with terribs you can keep as many as your space will allow.

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## sleepingwolf1772

Thanks for all the recommendations everyone! I will look into Tincs and Terribillis, and if I do go with Tincs I will be going with a male and female for sure.Im starting to Look more into the Leucs like I said. I have fallen in love with there calls and colors.  Im going to be buying another Terrarium in the future for sure so Im sure I will own some Tincs or Terribillis eventually.

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## JimO

Regarding the false bottom and drain, all five of my vivs have false bottoms and some kind of water circulation feature, but I never wanted to risk drilling a drain hole in glass.  However, I have rarely had to change out the water and when I do, I just use a simple syphoning device.  My water is pretty dark tea/coffee colored, but it's clear and that's how I like it.  Those who want a clear underwater feature should probably install a convenient drain.

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## sleepingwolf1772

After looking at a few others designs I think I will be going with the syphoning system as well. I dont really want to risk breaking my tanks drilling them out.

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## Alpha Pro Breeders

> I'll see your galactanotus and raise you some terribilis.  If you want a very visible frog, terribilis wins in my opinion.  However, they are not as active as tincs - terribs tend to stay stock still most of the time.  If you're game, look through the morphs/races of tincs and see what one you like in particular, and try those.  The only downside to tincs is you can't keep them in groups - 1 male and 1 female is about the only safe option.  At least with terribs you can keep as many as your space will allow.


Terribilis are my hands down favorite frog, but their a little expensive for the first time dart frog buyer. When I check their hut for eggs and their sitting on top a lot of times they won't even hop off. I don't really agree with tincs having to be in pairs, if they are raised up from juveniles together (in my opinion)you will rarely see aggression. I usually see a problem when you try to add one later or put 2 older females together. I breed one set of my Galacts in a group, couple sets of my leucs, and I even have one male and 2 females Azureus breeding group.

www.alphaprobreeders.com

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## frogfreaks

Hi

We keep lots of Tincs, a group of Blue/Bronze Auratus and Leucs.

I agree that Auratus may not be the best first frog. They can be shy and skittish. You may not see them a whole lot at first. That can be nerve racking for your first frogs.

Tincs are a very bold frog. We love them and have lots of different morphs.  I think they do best in trios or pairs as well. 2 males to 1 female can work if brought up together. There are cases where they can be done in groups but you need to be prepared to seperate fast if troubles begin. We had to seperate two females quicky once. The larger female was trying to drown the smaller one. We just caught it in time. When they sexually mature they can be very aggresive. Especially females.

I think Leucs would be the best bet for your first frog. They're bold. They get along well and are very entertaining. They have a beautifull call. They use the whole viv and are very active too. I would still stick to a pair or trio though.  I think you would very happy with these guys as your first frogs.  :Smile:

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## John Clare

> I don't really agree with tincs having to be in pairs, if they are raised up from juveniles together (in my opinion)you will rarely see aggression.


I've found with tincs that everybody's experience on their aggression is different.  I've seen sibling froglets consistently jump on another to deny it food.  They were less than a month old.  Several people have never seen this.  It actually put me off getting too much into tincs.

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## Alpha Pro Breeders

> I've found with tincs that everybody's experience on their aggression is different.  I've seen sibling froglets consistently jump on another to deny it food.  They were less than a month old.  Several people have never seen this.  It actually put me off getting too much into tincs.


Their just like people all very different, but I would say that would be a rare instance. Some times you need to seperate, I alway keep a good supply of Sterlite tubs handy just in case.

www.alphaprobreeders.com

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## sleepingwolf1772

Well Im just getting back from the store I mentioned earlier. I did get to see some Darts! Leucs actually as well as some Terribillis and Tincs.  I was not impressed by the store however. I had read great reviews on it but it dissapointed me.  I was able to find the Darts  after some looking. The tank they were in had no info on them except they were Darts, and the price.  If I hadnt been doing research I would not have even know what species were in there. They were also housing Leucs, Tincs, and Terribillis all in the same tank! Granted it was a fairly large tank with plenty of cover but still. They also wanted $200 for one frog! As I said no information was given except that they were all Darts and that was the price.  I am happy however that I got to see them all In person! They are amazing creatures.

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## John Clare

I don't have a problem with them housing those frogs together for the time of them being in the store.  Those 3 species will be ok together like that.  Now, leucs and tincs can hybridize but they won't be able to develop the dynamic necessary to breed with all those other frogs around, so not an issue.

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## Deku

I know I may get chewed at for saying this.. But heck! I feel indifferent today! xD. 
I know you probably researched. But here is a general tip(of what I think):
1)Remember they are extremely fragile and scare easily as stated by john in another post.
2)They have very care specific needs. 
3)They are quite expensive, so if one dies then just figure a ton of money down the drain. 
4)Because of tip number 3 Id say you would need to be very careful, keep it in a quiet room, a room with no sprays or anything, and dont hold it more than it really needs to. 
5)Make sure you have a source of fruit flies. Sometimes petstores dont even carry them, or missed their shipments. This goes for online too. Make sure you have multiple places to check. Personally Id breed them on my own if I were you. 
6)Read, read, read, read, read some more. I know these frogs arent terribly difficult(as I was told), but nevertheless you dont want to take risks with them. 
7)I dont know much about their care, but if they need heat. make sure you have extra heat sources. So if one fails you can put the other one on. 
8)Id also keep pretty much an extra part of everything that is used for the terrarium. heck id keep an extra terrarium llaying about, just incase it broke(heck iam a clutz, I dont know about you but id keep one). 


Again these are all suggestions! Meaning they are opinions!

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## sleepingwolf1772

Thank you John for clarifying that for me. I didnt know if they would be okay like that or not. Kevin thank you very much for your advice. I will be breeding fruit flys before I even aquire any frogs so that they will have a constant food supply. I will not be handling them at all unless it is to transfer them to another Terrarium or If I have to remove them for another reason I am planning on having a back up home for them if need be.  It will be moths before I get any if I even do. I am going to start building the Terrarium very soon and It will take some time to make sure everything will be perfect for them. If I cant get the Terrarium to be perfect I will not be getting any because I would not want them to be stressed or sick just because I want them.  Also I am not mad at all for your advice, I welcome it! Please feel free to say more if you feel the need to!

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## Deku

> Thank you John for clarifying that for me. I didnt know if they would be okay like that or not. Kevin thank you very much for your advice. I will be breeding fruit flys before I even aquire any frogs so that they will have a constant food supply. I will not be handling them at all unless it is to transfer them to another Terrarium or If I have to remove them for another reason I am planning on having a back up home for them if need be.  It will be moths before I get any if I even do. I am going to start building the Terrarium very soon and It will take some time to make sure everything will be perfect for them. If I cant get the Terrarium to be perfect I will not be getting any because I would not want them to be stressed or sick just because I want them.  Also I am not mad at all for your advice, I welcome it! Please feel free to say more if you feel the need to!


Sounds like a plan. Hope this helps and good luck.

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## frogfreaks

> I know I may get chewed at for saying this.. But heck! I feel indifferent today! xD. 
> I know you probably researched. But here is a general tip(of what I think):
> 1)Remember they are extremely fragile and scare easily as stated by john in another post.
> 2)They have very care specific needs. 
> 3)They are quite expensive, so if one dies then just figure a ton of money down the drain. 
> 4)Because of tip number 3 Id say you would need to be very careful, keep it in a quiet room, a room with no sprays or anything, and dont hold it more than it really needs to. 
> 5)Make sure you have a source of fruit flies. Sometimes petstores dont even carry them, or missed their shipments. This goes for online too. Make sure you have multiple places to check. Personally Id breed them on my own if I were you. 
> 6)Read, read, read, read, read some more. I know these frogs arent terribly difficult(as I was told), but nevertheless you dont want to take risks with them. 
> 7)I dont know much about their care, but if they need heat. make sure you have extra heat sources. So if one fails you can put the other one on. 
> ...


This sounds a bit scary to me. lol

1) I wouldn't buy a dart frog untill they were at least three months old. Plenty of hides and lots of leaf litter will help them feel very comfy imo.

2) Compared to what Kevin? They're fairly easy to keep. Humidity, food, suppliments and a well planted viv.

3) Some of the beginner frogs can be bought for uner $50. Is that considered that expensive?

4) We keep ours in a room that see's lots of traffic. Depending on the species they can be very bold. Leucs and Tincs included. I wouldn't handle any frog.

5) !00% agreed. You need to get the hand of FF culturing first. IMO Humidity and cultures go hand in hand. Between 50-60% humidity is ideal for cultures. Too much and they don't produce well. To little and they dry out and don't produce at all. Pinheads are an alternative. Finding a frogger near you that keeps darts is a good idea as well.

6) Agreed. You can't know to much about any animal.

7) AC is more important than heat. They should be kept between the low 60's and the low 80's. We keep ours around 78F max.  Fast temperature fluctuations are more of a concern. EX. Ac failed and the temps. rose quickly.

8) That's always a good idea. A spare tank with leaf litter and some coco huts will do. A glass top as well.

We have over 100 Darts atm and have lost 1 froglet. We lost him within a week of putting him in the viv. We don't think they're difficult to keep at all. Maintaining a diverse food source is key imo. We feed FF's, Springtails, Isopods and lots of pinhead crickets. Depending on how many frogs you have, taking care of the food source can be more work than the frogs. You can imagine how much time we spend looking after feeders with all those mouths to feed.  :Frog Smile: 

Glenn

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## Alpha Pro Breeders

Very well said Glenn. I think a lot of people's opinion on dart frogs are that they are fragile, hard to feed, and extremely expensive.

I would feed and raise fruit flies any day over crickets. (I do both, but prefer Fruit Flies)

I have so many dart frogs, that I don't know how many I have. I also have only had a few losses, mostly my fault from escapees.

I have a friend that bought 2 imitators a year or two ago and has a really nice collection of frogs from trading their babies for other frogs. Dart frogs are in my opinion very easy to breed, and very easy to trade and sell to other froggers. This can keep your cost minimal, and might even pay for your hobby.

www.alphaprobreeders.com

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## frogfreaks

> Dart frogs are in my opinion very easy to breed, and very easy to trade and sell to other froggers. This can keep your cost minimal, and might even pay for your hobby.
> 
> www.alphaprobreeders.com


That's a very good point. We have 4 species laying this year. 100+ Tads in the water and 20+ on land. 

If we can breed them, anyone can.  :Big Grin:  It just takes a lil research is all...

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