# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  Pacman looking very round.

## Ferretdragon

New frog owner here, we've not had our pacman very long but it has grown a lot since we first got it. 
Recently we had someone look after it and they fed it some morios which we were told is fine. Since coming back and checking on it it looks like it's full of air or water, it's basically really round looking. I sprayed it (with treated water) and it did pass some water at the time but has stayed the same size. Not sure what to do.

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## smokinsam

> New frog owner here, we've not had our pacman very long but it has grown a lot since we first got it. 
> Recently we had someone look after it and they fed it some morios which we were told is fine. Since coming back and checking on it it looks like it's full of air or water, it's basically really round looking. I sprayed it (with treated water) and it did pass some water at the time but has stayed the same size. Not sure what to do.


No idea v what morios are but try soaking him in warm treated water


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## smokinsam

Wait maybe not!
I may have given you bad info if this sounds like your situation....
Water Edema Syndrome
The frog will start to swell up because of water retention. In very extreme cases, the frog may feel like a squishy water bag. A damaged lymph heart and kidney disease are common causes of water edema, and to date, there is no information as to prevention for the disorder. You can limit the amount of water that is available, or a vet can release retained water via small incisions at swell sites; but, this can be tedious, and you'll find the end result will be the same.


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## Lija

What is with these worms lately lol 

We call them superworms in North America, they have a high chitin component, less then in mealworms though, still feding them =impaction risk. They are also very fattening, that also doesn't help much.

so the questions are - what are your temps? Humidity? Substrate?, when your frog pooped last?
please post a pic of your frog ( you need to host it somewhere like photobucket and then post url here.)

what you describe sounds like impaction and associated with it bloating, if so you should start with warm bath ( water level no higher then frogs chin) every day for 20 min for at least 3 days, but let's make sure there is nothing else going on.
while you do that look for a vet in your area that treat frogs to have it on hand if bath doesn't help.

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## Lija

> Wait maybe not!
> I may have given you bad info if this sounds like your situation....
> Water Edema Syndrome
> The frog will start to swell up because of water retention. In very extreme cases, the frog may feel like a squishy water bag. A damaged lymph heart and kidney disease are common causes of water edema, and to date, there is no information as to prevention for the disorder. You can limit the amount of water that is available, or a vet can release retained water via small incisions at swell sites; but, this can be tedious, and you'll find the end result will be the same.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 That is not correct.  :Smile:  water edema is direct symptom of kindey failure, its irreversible, the cause in most cases keeping a frog in low temps for prolonged time. Doesn't sound it applicable to the situation on hand

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## smokinsam

That's what it says.



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## Ferretdragon

I'll have to get some pics in the morning, he's in a 30x30x30cm exo and has the canopy that goes with it. Temps are usually 23c sometimes a bit higher again we were told this is fine by the shop owner  :Frown:  The person looking after the house said it had been cold at night but I'm not sure what it might have been dropping to. There is exo soil and moss in there, I'm taking the Moss out tomorrow.

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## Ferretdragon

His Temps are 22c with no heating on currently. They're about 24-26c during the day sorry.
I tried to get pic as I can't sleep from worrying. 
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/x...pss2hydm8f.jpg

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## Ferretdragon

He's not pooped for over a week. Which is around when it started getting colder at night and when he got fed the worms. Not sure on exact humidity. But we mist him a few times in the day

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## Lija

22C is about 72F,  24-26 are about 75-79F. These are too low, but not critically low. You need to raise them, but make sure you do up gradually!  I'm for 25-26 C day, 27-28 night.
 Next - soaks in warm water 80F (26-27C), 20 min a day, tomorrow ( it's probably today across the pond from us) when you do it, very gently massage the sides and try to feel a big hard mass on the left or right of both sides. Please tell us if you feel it or it all feels like a gelly. 

What kind of water are you using?

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## Ferretdragon

Did the picture work?
We use Reptisafe with the water. How would you recommend raising the Temps? The canopy currently has it at 23c (it's day time now) during the night the canopy is off

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## Ferretdragon

He's had a soak, lots of wee, felt like he's of air.

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## Jason

Those 30cm tanks are not really good for pacmans IMO. They're difficult to heat and too small for a thermal gradient, the frog will also grow out it fast. They need temps between 26-29C at day and not below 21C at night. You'd be best with a starter kit like this http://www.globalgeckos.co.uk/public...roduct_id=1160

It's a bit expensive, but has almost everything you"ll need to save yourself a headache and will house an adult, but the 30cm tank won't.

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Lija

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## Lija

Good catch Jason! 

Ferretdragon - great news! Hopefully it will stay this way

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jasonm96

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## Ferretdragon

It won't let me edit my other post for some reason but I meant to say he feels full of air. Will bathe again tomorrow. He didn't really change size either. Just did a few wees
Thank you for the link, unfortunately I trusted a petshop owners advice  :Frown:

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## Jason

It's unfortunate that  some pet shops are not the best for advice, been there and wasted money. If you're stuck for money after convinced to buying that then zoomed do an 10-gallon amphibian starter kit which is perfect and all you've need is a dome and a moonlight bulb, I think all together this would set you at a £100. In a heated room the tank you have would be fine for raising a juvenile, but you just can't heat a tank that small properly. Heats the most important thing, which allows them to grow well, feed and digest their food properly.

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## Lija

Pet stores... my favourite topic .....

yes, you should give him a bath for a few days, hopefully it'll help

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## Ferretdragon

Been keeping up baths, his skin isn't as taught now but hes still big, but he's just sat on top of his mud constantly - his eyes aren't cloudy or anything, he's just sat there. Probably waiting for more food -_-

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## Ferretdragon

Unfortunately it seems that at some point during the day today he passed away. I've been keeping everything up, heatmat was added to up night temps, he was peeing and was not as bloated as he'd started, he was still bright eyed and had been moving around the tank. I check on him nightly and in the morning and this afternoon whilst tidying my sons room we noticed that his eyes were flat and shrivelled, his sides are completely sucked in bar whatever he was blocked up with, he's entirely hard now with no softness left to him. We tried getting him wet (He gets misted daily anyway) and no response. We tried turning him over etc and he is just stiff and unresponsive. Very upset. My son is going to be absolutely heartbroken. I do want to get another frog but now I'm really worried that even if I buy a better setup etc this can happen all over again  :Frown:

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## Jason

so sorry to hear

but

are you sure it's dead? as the temps were cool it could have decided to go into aestivation and they do look innamate ??

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## Ferretdragon

I'd improved the temperatures by adding a heat mat - he'd already done the whole crispy thing on me once before when we first got him, spraying him etc brought him out of it and he ate his skin and started being active again but this is different, Currently got him sat on moist tissue just in case but he's discoloured, his bloating has vanished entirely but you can still see he was full of whatever it was - I'm assuming it was the morios and his sides are now hard and mishapen, eyes are flat, sunken and mishapen, which I know happens when they do go dormant but the rest of him doesn't look right at all  - he was fine in the early hours of this morning, as in 3-4am.  :Frown: 
I've googled pics of pacmans doing it but they're still round, he's really not anymore  :Frown:

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## Jason

Heat mats are not the best. Heat lamps are better as they give you some ambient heat. 

Again, sorry for your loss. Don't let it put you off, though. Honestly, if you get the kit I posted above and read a good book like horned frogs by ray huzniker then you should be good!

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## Ferretdragon

Yeah it was just to tide over until we got the new setup, I think it must have been a combination of cooler temps and morios that did it in the end. Doesn't help that other places I went to get help either made keeping them sound horrendously complicated - I had read up on keeping them before going to get one but apparently not enough! Or they'd just say "Pacmans are meant to look round"  :Frown:  
I've found somewhere I can order lobworms from - would they be a good food for pacmans if I try again?

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## Cory

So sorry to hear about your loss, it may have been something prior to you purchaseing him and the stress of the move just made the problem kick in to overdrive. And as jason said dont let this discourage you from getting another, lots of people have lost frogs there first time around.

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Ferretdragon

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## Jason

Cooler temps definitely, it can cause improper digestion so the food basically rots inside. But morios are not bad in moderation. It's best to feed a varied diet to large frogs anyway. Their just high in fat and have a bad Ca:P ratio but it can be corrected by gutloading and supplementation. Lob worms or nightcrawlers, have a better Ca:P ratio and are healthy, so you can feed these more. You don't need to supplement the lob worms but other food such as crickets, roaches and pink mice should also be used to make sure the frog is getting all the nutrition it needs. 

Frogs are complicated to care for, not saying they're hard to care for but they have many needs that have to be met. A good pet shop will tell you so, rather than making them sound as easy as throwing a few crickets in now and then, change the water dish, etc. as so many wrongly do. The good thing is that the information to successfully keep them is out there and it's easy enough to care for most frogs when you have a good few books on them.

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monster

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## Ferretdragon

What I got told when I got him was that room temperature was fine - I went back several times to voice my concerns over the temps his tank was at and was told he was fine as he keeps loads of frogs. I was told to dust everything with calcium supplement, change the water in the bowl daily with treated water, spray him daily with treated water to keep him moist - change the soil every few weeks and not mix it up.

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## Cory

They always say the room temp thing, i swear they think people keep there house at 80f all year round. The spraying directly also stresses them out, if they get hit by the mist the odd the time its not to bad but not to directly spray them. They stay moist by absorbing the moisture in the substrate, and if they feel dehydrated they will usually go to there water bowl. 80f and up to about 85f is were you want the heat to be, i find around 82f is nice comfortable temp for my guys. Darn pet stores.

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Ferretdragon, jasonm96

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## Jason

Most pet shops I've been to know nothing about frogs and apparently yours doesn't know anything either, if they think room temperature in the UK is suitable for a horned frog. I think it is shocking that a pet shop can give out advice like that when it is well known that horned frogs, one of the most popular frogs in the trade, need a absolute minimum temperature of 24C, although this is not ideal and it should be warmer during day, especially for juveniles. The temps Cory mentioned are the correct ones. You also need a multivitamin supplement. I relied on pet shop advice when I started out and ended up in the same place as you.

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Ferretdragon

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## Ferretdragon

Well I've ordered that book you mentioned, I'll get that other kit and sell this little exo terra on. Hoping I can get a frog that looks similar, though not sure where exactly to get one from now, really don't want to use that shop ever again.

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## Jason

There's some pyxies (giant African bullfrogs) going and I highly recommend them!! Marc staniszewski (legend) that owns dart frog.co.uk is selling grown on juveniles for £90. Yes this is steep, but the amount of money for feeding you'll have saved makes them worthwhile and they can live up to 40 years and reach a large size. They're also more active hunters. Otherwise, reptilecentre are a good shop and should sell some horned frogs or exotic pets also are good. The pyxies will require similar but larger housing but I can advise you to my knowledge and what I've done, in what to get. Their care is otherwise the same and featured in that book

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## Cory

I would agree that if you don't have a lot of mouths to feed animal wise that the GAFB would be better then the horned frog. Horned frogs literally don't do anything once they are older were as Jason said the GABF will still be active. I have said it before and will say it again that if I didn't already have to many pets I would have one, I like to keep myself at a limit. I love the big frogs and one day I will own one of these tanks. Its all the darn nice looking morphs of pacmans that always get me, theres just so many.

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jasonm96

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## Jason

Can understand with the D&M's fantasy horned frog and Kim thomas's abilno, beautiful! But they're like a fashion accessory rather than a display of activity, unfortunately. Although I suppose they're active at night if you use LEDS to view them, especially the cranwellis. Giant African bullfrogs though! Or Colorado river toads if you're into big frogs. If you've seen them in flesh Cory you would be amazed. Massive, rhino-like toad means awesome! Dart frog also sells them but a bit different in care. Definitely a good idea to resist the temptation and keep it to a limit, easier to pamper those select individuals, I have gave a few away myself.

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## Ferretdragon

They sound awesome! The only problem I have is the little one we just lost was my 6 year olds pride and joy  :Frown:

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## Ferretdragon

What are the Bull Frogs like for being held? (we didn't pester the other one just now and then when we were cleaning he'd sit on someones hands for a bit.)

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## Jason

I know the feeling, it's horrible. But no fault of your own. Pet shops shouldn't sell animals without giving correct advice and recommending books to you for further learning. In future though you will be fine and you're kid may well have the frog for years. Keeping frogs also teaches children to learn many things about animals and biology keeping frogs and appreciate for all life. If there's anything you need help with just give me a DM and I'm sure Cory would be happy as well, he's really nice and knowledgable.

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## Jason

Bullfrogs are not too good for handling, they'll tolerate it but that's it. But they're interactive during feeding and will calm down. If you want a frog to handle then whites tree frogs are your best bet. They look to appreciate company so a few of them is probably best. They're greedy just like the other two frogs

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## Ferretdragon

OK, well I'll have a look around and see whats what, I just want something my son will enjoy watching grow and that I don't feel like I'm failing miserably in looking after haha

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## Jason

That book I've recommended will tell you all you know in a beginner way for horned frogs, it's easy to read. A fairly simple frog to keep is a fire-bellied toad if that interests you, they're very tolerant of different housing and only need a little heating as they need temps between 22-25C. They're nocturnal but also active during the day, so a better display pet

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## Ferretdragon

I have a feeling I'm going to be looking for another small round squishy yellow pet pebble

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## Jason

An albino huh? Reptile centre have some I believe

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## Ferretdragon

That's what he was, didn't tell me the specifics but just that he was albino. They had a strawberry albino in there as well.

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## Cory

if your son wants something to watch and something to get laugh from I would agree a whites would be great. They have so much personality and are just so funny to watch while they interact with each other. And if bitten while handling these guys it will just gum your finger to death L.O.L, were as a pacman or a GABF have teeth and will give him a nice mark if they get him good. Theres just so many wonderful different kinds of frogs that's its so hard to pick and just have one, and once you have one they become addictive and you want them all.

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Ferretdragon, jasonm96

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## Jason

Cranwelli, surprised they have strawberries they're hard to come by here in the U.K. They're pretty nice. Got to be careful about light with them, probably best no UVB and just LEDS for a photoperiod

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## Jason

Pokemon comes to mind Cory! I have a scar from the pacman but my bullfrog is fairly tame

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## Ferretdragon

What are the tree frogs like for keeping? I'm obviously going to have to get a different setup entirely to the rubbish the other guy pawned off on me. And yeah - he only had the one up on the shop counter - likes to show it off, but it was a beautiful colour

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## Jason

They're fairly easy to heat since they're arboreal and can get closer to the light. Whites like to bask and benefit from UVB (about 5% in normal set ups). Sensitive to supplements but there's lower level ones made by repashy superfoods which are suitable. Whites tree frogs are popular and the care information is relatively consistent. The best reference is AVS popular tree frogs de Vosjoli, mailloux and ready, which is actually a very in depth book but compact. They're mostly nocturnal but will feed at day. You can view them with blue night time LEDS. The minimum tank size is a 18 x 18 x 24" tank the good thing is that it doesn't take up a lot of space since the most important thing is height. You can get creative with tree frogs set ups and provide plenty of plants and climbing areas.

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## Ferretdragon

Aha, we have a little waterproof blue LED in the other setup, was on timer to come on just before the other light went out. Typically the starter kit I was just looking at is too small (12"x12"x18" ) I think Tree Frogs might work out as I follow "Stickyfrogs" on facebook and my son adores her four frogs.  What about heating at night time?

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## Jason

It could house juveniles but not adults. Global geckos has a perfect tree frog kit on their website which will happily house whites tree frogs, so does exotic pets.co.uk

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Ferretdragon

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## Ferretdragon

Thank you! Looks like I'll be gathering bits over Xmas, little one is going to be very sad. I guess they prefer to be in pairs at least?

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