# Frogs & Toads > African Bullfrogs >  WOW...Something is weird.

## NialR35

I just found my frog half buried in this VERY weird VERTICAL  position, arms out and extended and he looked so stiff that I thought he  was dead. Scared the heck out of me.... I panicked and poked him a bit  with the rubber tongs to see if he was going to move and after like 3  seconds he did so I sprayed some water on him to see if he would do  something, then just sat there in a normal position but that was very  weird....Any thoughts on this? I have never seen him in such position,  he looked dead for a second...and I mean dead because when I opened the cover he did not even move at all.

He did not eat much last night compared to the past two weeks, he seemed scared and went under the plants and "hid" there after 2 pieces. Also last night when I lowered the temps and raised humidity he started jumping a little bit, hitting the glass like if he was trying to get out or something, weird. Just thought I'd mention this.

Another thing, I have no seen yet "big" poops like they normally do, I just have found small circular clunks of what appears to be poop in the water. Is it normal for these frogs to do small amounts every couple of days or they are supposed to have a bowel movements of once a week?

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## SCF

Did it's skin appear to be moist? Did you notice how it was breathing? How damp/dry is the substrate? Has it's water bowl been very messy on a constant basis? Is the water you are using in it's bowl dechlorinated? 

The scared part of it jumping at the glass would suggest stress. 

The little chunks of feces you notice are just because you are using earthworms, that is perfectly normal, big harder feces is normally when you are feeding something with an exoskeleton.

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## NialR35

Skin was moist because 10 mins before I found him like that he was in his water bowl. I did not notice his breathing, he wasn't moving at all because I observed him for about 20 seconds before I poked him and half his lower body was buried. 

Substrate is always misted on the side where the lamp hits, the "cold" side next to the water bowl has more moisture. I try to keep the substrate with more moisture on the bottom so when the frog buries it can cool off better. I clean his water bowl every night and I use dechlorinated water for everything.  

He did jump a couple of times last night after 2 weeks, I don't know if it was because I lowered the temps, turned out the lights and misted on the glass and he was trying to catch water drops thinking it was food? He didn't go crazy but I heard him headbutting the glass a couple of times. 

The chunks are very small....my ornate is also eating nightcrawlers and he goes once a week and does a big package. What really freaked me out was the half buried in a vertical position, with his arms extended out like if he was going to hug something, looking stiff but when I poked him he kinda like got out of that trance state.

He has been eating well except for last night  that his appetite seemed a lot less than the past two weeks; only ate two pieces and went under the plants "hiding". Then I offered two more pieces 10 mins later and he ate them under the plant..maybe it was the  calcium that he tasted first and turned him off.

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## SCF

One thing we have never discussed here (that I know of) and does not exactly pertain to this issue is playing dead. The very first time I saw a pyxie play dead, my girlfriend and I freaked. It's arms were extended out, but this was in the water dish. They do this often, and in a jokingly manner we just say "oh, so and so died." I've never observed this in the substrate though and this does not seem to be the case. It sounds like it is toxing out. That's why i'm asking some questions on water/setup etc. What have you primarily been feeding it as of last week? The jumping issue I do not think is a concern.

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## SCF

Also how wet do you think it is on the bottom of the substrate? The reason I ask is because if it's overly wet, it easily can breed bacteria and fungus, which will affect the frog.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Sounds like Toxing Out to me. Need more habitat information.

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## NialR35

I thought it could be toxing out as well....I changed his water last night after feeding so he can have fresh clean water for the night since he spends the majority of the night in there. I did notice the water a little dirty this morning but I did not pay much attention to it since I  change the water EVERY night no matter what. I scald his dish with HOT tap water, and rinse it with treated water prior to putting it back. 

The substrate is not really wet, just moist. There are no puddles or white mold anywhere. It does look dryer in some parts because that's where the lamp hits. I have been feeding night crawlers for the past two weeks to go easy on him since I just got him. Eating has been great until last night when I noticed him not as aggressive as other days and ate only around half of what he normally would. 

One thing I did do was give him a bigger water bowl, its only the medium sized zoo med one. I washed it and treated it prior to using it and kept the water level to under his chin.

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## SCF

Simple question, but do you rinse off the earthworms before you feed? How are you storing them? Does their substrate smell "off" in any way? You can also mix the eco earth around into the dry stuff and help get rid of the overly wet.

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## NialR35

1. Size of enclosure? 10 gal

2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences? 1

3. Humidity? 73-80%

4. Temperature? 82-83F daytime; 78F nighttime

5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish? Dechlorinated water for everything. 

6. Materials used for substrate? Eco earth

7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and  other materials. - How were things prepared prior to being put into the  viv? Water bowl, plastic plant, tree log, covered on all sides and a small stripe in the bottom front of the tank.

8. Main food source? Night crawlers

9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often?) Ca+D3 x3/ Mul-vit x1 per week. 

10. Lighting? 50 watt tight beam bulb with dimming lamp.

11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure? UTH on side and lamp.  

12. When is the last time he/she ate? Last night, but about 45% less compared to the last two weeks.

13. Have you found poop lately? I always find small brown clunks in the water, seems to be small poops compared to the big weekly ones from the ornate. They both eat the same thing.

14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine) 

15. How old is the frog? I would say around 1 month and a half or less. I got him when he was a little over an inch SVL.

16. How long have you owned him/her? 2 weeks

17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred? CB

18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats? So far I have only fed Canadian night crawlers.

19. How often the frog is handled?  Never.

20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area? No traffic at all. 

21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc) Water changes are done on a daily basis every night after feeding. Have not done a monthly cleaning yet.

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## NialR35

> Simple question, but do you rinse off the earthworms before you feed? How are you storing them? Does their substrate smell "off" in any way? You can also mix the eco earth around into the dry stuff and help get rid of the overly wet.


Yea, I rinse the night crawlers with treated water prior to cutting. I keep them refrigerated too. Their substrate does not smell at all and the worms look healthy, nice and round without sores or bumps.

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## SCF

18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats? So far I have only fed Canadian night crawlers.

I believe the reason is this here.

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## SCF

Even giving some crickets will help diversify it's diet. Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.

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## NialR35

> 18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats? So far I have only fed Canadian night crawlers.
> 
> I believe the reason is this here.



You really think so? How could that cause it the weird position I found him in? Well I can get waxworms, hornworms, crickets and some florida keys broad head roach or something like that. I guess I could buy a pack of waxworms and use them as treats....but how often do you feed treats? Once per day along with the nightcrawlers? 

I always try to keep humidity at 80% but what is a good range? I think 60-80% is good right?

I just noticed him sitting there with his eyes kinda closed, like if he was squinting but when I get closer to take a look he opens them wide. Is this him/her trying to sleep or there is something wrong?

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## Colleen/Jerrod

I don't think its the lack of diversity because that is what the Vitamins are for.

What kind of dechlorinated water are you using? Tap, spring, distilled, R/O, or purified?

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## SCF

I really do think so. It's not getting enough of diverse nutrition that is vital to it's health. For example, I've had my newest baby a week longer than you, I've fed it earthworms, dubia, a pinky, morio worms, crickets, hornworms, and a few silks. 

You do not need to keep at it 80% humidity, lower is ok as well.

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## SCF

The vitamins in no way can replicate diverse insect nutrition, imo.

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## NialR35

> I don't think its the lack of diversity because that is what the Vitamins are for.
> 
> What kind of dechlorinated water are you using? Tap, spring, distilled, R/O, or purified?


I'm treating tap water with repti safe. 

What about the playing dead part that SCF mentioned?

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> The vitamins in no way can replicate diverse insect nutrition, imo.


True, but that is not the reason for the frog to act this way. It is most likely environmental or neurological. Spasms and paralysis are associated with toxig out as well as frantic behavior.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Mine doesn't play dead, but they will lay motionless for long periods of time with arms and legs slayed while sleeping in their water.

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## NialR35

Dang...I just hope my baby is okay. He has been doing awesome all this time, I really don't know what could have caused this. I doubt it was changing the water bowl, I noticed the tank has this silicone inside that holds together the pieces of glass on every edge...I don't think the frog rubbing/touching this silicone when he buries could be causing this right?

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## SCF

> One thing we have never discussed here (that I know of) and *does not exactly pertain to this issue* is playing dead. The very first time I saw a pyxie play dead, my girlfriend and I freaked. It's arms were extended out, but this was in the water dish. They do this often, and in a jokingly manner we just say "oh, so and so died." I've never observed this in the substrate though and this does not seem to be the case. *It sounds like it is toxing out.* That's why i'm asking some questions on water/setup etc. What have you primarily been feeding it as of last week? The jumping issue I do not think is a concern.


I'm agreeing with you Grif... Either of us cannot fully speculate from personal experience about feeding a pyxie 1 food item for 2 weeks though. I know you have not done this, so I do not think it can be fully ruled out. Even if it's not the cause for Nial's problems, it still should be changed.

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## SCF

> Dang...I just hope my baby is okay. He has been doing awesome all this time, I really don't know what could have caused this. I doubt it was changing the water bowl, I noticed the tank has this silicone inside that holds together the pieces of glass on every edge...I don't think the frog rubbing/touching this silicone when he buries could be causing this right?


No, it's toxic free and animal safe.

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## NialR35

Could it be that I'm dusting too much? I dust 3x Ca and 1x Multi vit but on dusting days I completely cover almost every single piece of worm I feed. Could this be too much maybe?

I honestly was thinking of feeding variety, but as of now since my frogs are still babies and don't really eat much it would be pointless to buy earthworms, crickets, roaches, waxworms and hornworms all at once because they will probably end up drying before my frogs are able to eat them. I will buy a pack of waxworms today to offer them as treats but how often should i feed these treats then?

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I'm agreeing with you Grif... Either of us cannot fully speculate from personal experience about feeding a pyxie 1 food item for 2 weeks though. I know you have not done this, so I do not think it can be fully ruled out. Even if it's not the cause for Nial's problems, it still should be changed.


I've given him Night Crawlers more than 2 weeks in a row as a baby. That is his main food source.

Lack of nutrition can also cause nurological disorders, but this is odd behavior and sounds like some kind of poisoning.

Edit; internal Bacterial Infections can also cause similar symptoms.

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## SCF

> Could it be that I'm dusting too much? I dust 3x Ca and 1x Multi vit but on dusting days I completely cover almost every single piece of worm I feed. Could this be too much maybe?
> 
> I honestly was thinking of feeding variety, but as of now since my frogs are still babies and don't really eat much it would be pointless to buy earthworms, crickets, roaches, waxworms and hornworms all at once because they will probably end up drying before my frogs are able to eat them. I will buy a pack of waxworms today to offer them as treats but how often should i feed these treats then?


I personally do not dust as much as everyone recommends. I feel diversity is the key, and have had no problems with my animals. I do agree with Grif though and like I said before it sounds like it's toxing out.

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## NialR35

Okay, so as of now what do you guys recommend? I will feed him tonight as of normal and keep you guys updated. I hope maybe it was him falling asleep into that position or something and nothing worse. 

And if he is toxing out what could it be then? I mean I have been doing the same thing since I got him and my other baby is doing great. I have not made any changes as far as my routine and the ONLY thing I can think of is him sitting in the dirty water for too long even though I changed his water last night.........Grif Remember that post from Justin talking about that cornuta being weak and poisoned from sitting in his water for too long? Oh my God..... I hope this did not happen to me yet it's one of the reasons I picked a bigger bowl that has more water all around and less chances of this happening. I'm worried, I really life my pyxie a lot and I hope this was just something easily fixed.

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## SCF

> I've given him Night Crawlers more than 2 weeks in a row as a baby. That is his main food source.
> 
> Lack of nutrition can also cause nurological disorders, but this is odd behavior and sounds like some kind of poisoning.
> 
> Edit; internal Bacterial Infections can also cause similar symptoms.


It's eyes being half shut as a baby would suggest nuro symptoms. In humans the occipital lobe of the brain controls eye functions. I do not know if this pertains to frogs.

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## NialR35

> It's eyes being half shut as a baby would suggest nuro symptoms. In humans the occipital lobe of the brain controls eye functions. I do not know if this pertains to frogs.


Any chance he was actually sleeping? I know they usually dilate their pupils when asleep but I have heard that sometimes they can also shut their eyes.

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## nirotorin

Could it be he just did this one odd thing, and he's not toxing out? The rest of his behavior doesn't seem that unusual.

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## SCF

> Could it be he just did this one odd thing, and he's not toxing out? The rest of his behavior doesn't seem that unusual.


It should not be "squinting it's eyes." I've only seen adults do this when trying to aestivate. Another thing to consider is in many animals, too much heat can and will cause neurological problems. How are you reading the temps? For me, I've stopped using UTH's (during the summer) because it makes the enclosures too hot.

Edit; How it's behaving is not normal.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Ah so you completely cover all feeders on supplement day?

This may very well be the problem. Vitamin toxicity is a form of toxing out. You only need a light coating of the supplement or coat only one end of each piece.

To much calcium though can cause edema and intestinal damage. To much multivitamin will attack the Liver an Kidneys. I believe we may have found the problem. Maybe.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Could it be he just did this one odd thing, and he's not toxing out? The rest of his behavior doesn't seem that unusual.


Possible, but unlikely.

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## SCF

Even if any of the other suggestions are not the reasons for your problems, they should be at least looked at. I'm sure some of this info will help many other people regardless.

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## NialR35

> It should not be "squinting it's eyes." I've only seen adults do this when trying to aestivate. Another thing to consider is in many animals, too much heat can and will cause neurological problems. How are you reading the temps? For me, I've stopped using UTH's (during the summer) because it makes the enclosures too hot.
> 
> Edit; How it's behaving is not normal.


I'm using a digital exo terra thermo/hygro meter. Sometimes temps do seem to spike up to 84F during the day but drop to 82.5F ish .At night they never seem to drop below 77F. My digital meter has a memory function that allows me to reset it every day/night to measure the highest and lowest temps during that day's readings. 

About the eyes squinting, he only did it with one of his eyes while he was sitting there. Another thing I just remembered was that after I poked him when I found him in that position, he started doing this "yawning" movements, opening and closing his mouth. Kinda like when they eat some eco earth.

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## NialR35

> Ah so you completely cover all feeders on supplement day?
> 
> This may very well be the problem. Vitamin toxicity is a form of toxing out. You only need a light coating of the supplement or coat only one end of each piece.
> 
> To much calcium though can cause edema and intestinal damage. To much multivitamin will attack the Liver an Kidneys. I believe we may have found the problem. Maybe.


Yea I figured I was dusting too much on dusting days which could result in something similar as overdoing it. So either I should lightly coat each piece OR just one end? I hope this is the problem and I noticed how on dusting days, as soon as they tried to go for the piece of worm and got that powder in their mouths, it really turned them off.

So that's how you dust Grif?

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## SCF

That would be it attempting to or shedding.

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## SCF

> I'm using a digital exo terra thermo/hygro meter. Sometimes temps do seem to spike up to 84F during the day but drop to 82.5F ish .At night they never seem to drop below 77F. My digital meter has a memory function that allows me to reset it every day/night to measure the highest and lowest temps during that day's readings. 
> 
> About the eyes squinting, he only did it with one of his eyes while he was sitting there. Another thing I just remembered was that after I poked him when I found him in that position, he started doing this "yawning" movements, opening and closing his mouth. Kinda like when they eat some eco earth.


sounds like you are right on there.

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## SCF

> Ah so you completely cover all feeders on supplement day?
> 
> This may very well be the problem. Vitamin toxicity is a form of toxing out. You only need a light coating of the supplement or coat only one end of each piece.
> 
> To much calcium though can cause edema and intestinal damage. To much multivitamin will attack the Liver an Kidneys. I believe we may have found the problem. Maybe.


I think Grif hit it right here...

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## NialR35

Now he has been under the tree log which is a place he barely goes to....I'm scared to look  :Frown: ....I will wait until feeding time and hope he eats back like a champ. Man this sucks....it's crazy how fast you get attached to these babies....

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## Colleen/Jerrod

I will also suggest changing his water multiple times per day. Small bodies of water can easily breed bacteria and carry high levels of ammonia from the frog's urine. I changed my Pyxi's water at least 3 times a day.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Now he has been under the tree log which is a place he barely goes to....I'm scared to look ....I will wait until feeding time and hope he eats back like a champ. Man this sucks....it's crazy how fast you get attached to these babies....


Don't panic. When they're stressed they hide. Sometimes they just decide to use the hides you provide for them.

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## NialR35

> I will also suggest changing his water multiple times per day. Small bodies of water can easily breed bacteria and carry high levels of ammonia from the frog's urine. I changed my Pyxi's water at least 3 times a day.


Do you still change it this often now that he is bigger?

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Do you still change it this often now that he is bigger?


Not unless he soils the water. Normaly i change it once per day now.

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## NialR35

> Not unless he soils the water. Normaly i change it once per day now.



Wow, thanks for this tip Grif. I was only changing it once per day and it does make sense to change it more often while the bowl is smaller. I will change it every night after feeding to provide clean water for the night and most likely change it again in the morning before going to work....I just hope he is okay.

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

No the sealant shouldn't be a problem unless it is really new and still smells of vinegar. (acetic acid) 
But I don't think that is your problem. 

When I first got my Pepito I fed him mostly crickets and Dubia roach nymphs. 
Then for a week or so nothing but Night crawlers  and man his poo stunk to high heaven. 
and his appetite dropped off a bit. Defiantly wasn't himself. 
So I alternate crickets , roaches, and night crawlers.  Only dusting the roaches and crickets with D3 
and gut loading the roaches and crickets.  Can't really gut load the worms. 

Since then his poo is no where as stinky. and he is much more active. 
But still haven't  croaked yet. 

I highly recommend starting a Dubia colony, very easy to start and keep.

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## SCF

> No the sealant shouldn't be a problem unless it is really new and still smells of vinegar. (acetic acid) 
> But I don't think that is your problem. 
> 
> When I first got my Pepito I fed him mostly crickets and Dubia roach nymphs. 
> Then for a week or so nothing but Night crawlers  and man his poo stunk to high heaven. 
> and his appetite dropped off a bit. Defiantly wasn't himself. 
> So I alternate crickets , roaches, and night crawlers.  Only dusting the roaches and crickets with D3 
> and gut loading the roaches and crickets.  Can't really gut load the worms. 
> 
> ...


Unfortunately he lives in Florida.

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

I won't tell if you don't

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## NialR35

Big emphasis on *"UNFORTUNATELY"* . I'm looking into discoids, just trying to find a reputable breeder to buy a mixed kit to start one.

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## SCF

> I won't tell if you don't


rofl Louis!

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## NialR35

The BEAST IS BACK!!!

WOW! I'm so relieved to see him eating like this again. He showed his aggresiveness and appetite once again after last night's suspense. I think he should be fine now, I will FOR SURE coat less in dusting days; I also believe I was overdusting by coating too much. 

I also will replace his medium water bowl 2-3 times a day like Grif suggested, being a smaller water bowl, it does get dirtier faster. I will post you guys if I noticed something weird again, but he ate one large night crawler in total and I'm pleased.

So apparently it could have been an overdusting problem that messed up with his body or maybe toxing out from sitting in soiled water for too long. I noticed this spider-web looking thing in his water today, probably skin.

Thank you friends!

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## nirotorin

Awesomeness!!! Glad he's doing well again.

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