# General Topics > Vivarium, Terrarium & Enclosure Discussion >  60 Gallon Cubed Dart Frog Sanctuary

## John

I just finished laying the drainage layer for my new 60 gallon viv.  I want to thank Bill and Paul for their help in my getting to this point.  I am using 3/8 inch tubing to facilitate draining if there is too much water.  I am using the sponge to ensure the tubing won't get blocked.

John


Put into two 3/8 inch tubing for siphoning off excess water. This picture is from the back side of the tank


From the front of the tank.  Only the 3/8 inch can be seen.

Thank you guys for the idea.  I used 20 quarts of Josh's Frog's false bottom.  Debating on whether to add one more bag.  I have a bunch of mulching clothe I will add tomorrow and then 30 or so quarts of ABG mix.  I also baked a bunch of wood at 250 degrees for 2 hours.  Making progress!  Stay tuned. 

Let me know what you all think so far.

John

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## bill

That's a good start!  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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EMCookjb

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## John

I have about 2 to 2.5 inches of drainage layer.  Will that be enough?

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## bill

Yup. You're good to go. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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EMCookjb

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## Paul

Great start! A proper drainage layer is strongest foundation you can build a Vivarium on  :Smile:  it will help your tank last a long long time.

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EMCookjb

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## bill

John, are you doing a background on this tank? or just going with heavy planting?

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## John

I was planning on doing "heavy planting".  I am thinking of vines and driftwood to help draw people's attention and hide the tubing.

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## bill

That works  :Smile:  I have a tank that uses just planting versus background. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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EMCookjb

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## Lynn

> I was planning on doing "heavy planting".  I am thinking of vines and driftwood to help draw people's attention and hide the tubing.


Enjoy your build....looking forward to more photos

Have you decided on which plants your going to use?
Have any favs ?

 :Butterfly:

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EMCookjb

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## John

I know generally that I am looking to get bromelaids, mosses and maybe ferns.  I am starting to research for specific species.  I know that I want bromelaids that will grow on some of the drift wood I plan on putting into the viv.  I do want to some taller plants for the back area. I was just going to order package plant deals from Josh Frogs, unless someone has some suggestions.

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## bill

My suggestion would be black jungle for plants. They not only have your common plants, but more rare and different plants as well. The bundles from Josh's are ok. But you get what they want to send you, and that may not necessarily be what you wanted to put in your tank. Plan ahead, choose your plants individually and you'll be much happier in the long run.  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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EMCookjb

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## John

Thanks Bill.  The website is great.  I really like that they have a section for dart frog habitats.  Now I can focus on the types of plants and then decide on species.

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## Paul

John,

I will throw one of Bill's line out to add to the discussion. "In the wild you will never see just ONE of a plant in an area. To make your tank look more natural plant multiples of the same around the tank" or something like that. Sounds better when he says it.

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EMCookjb

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## bill

yup, i tell paul that all the time. i try to plant in groups, because that's how plants normally grow in situ. but not all my plants are planted in groups. normally just the ones i want to make an impact.

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EMCookjb

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## John

That's a great point and will make things both a lot easier and harder.  Sounds like I need to only pick a few plants out of the hundreds available.  At least it makes sense to me.  Thank you again for everything.

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## John

Next phase started ... landscaping.  I put down a bunch of ABG, a bunch of driftwood, and rearranged the tubing.  I also added some fake vines to help hide the tubing.  I am hoping to get some real vine plants to attach themselves to the tubing and fake vines to really hide and secure the tubing.  Tomorrow I am hoping to add several bags of leaf litter.  I am thinking of getting another bag of ABG to help hide the right "hut" some more.

Thoughts and comments are welcomed.   :Smile:

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## bill

She's getting there. Instead of worrying about using all kinds of stuff to hide the tubing, consider just planting a nice tall plant in front of it. Height will be your challenge since you aren't using a background. It will take a while to fill all that in. Choose your plants wisely. They will make or break a no background tank. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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EMCookjb

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## John

Thank you for the feedback.  I have been doing research regarding some plants.  I am thinking of Ficux pumila "Creeping fig" or Golden pothos, "Rabbit's Foot Fern", and moss.  The fern in the background with the creeping vine as both vertical and ground cover.  The moss would be definite ground cover.  What do you think?

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## bill

The problem you will have with the ficus or pothos will be giving them something to climb up besides the wood. Their roots will stick to glass, but only temporarily. The rabbit's foot will be fine. It will take a long time to mature into a large, large plant, so plan ahead. And don't bury the fuzzy rhizomes of the fern. You'll kill it that way. Also, look into plants that grow larger in stature for your background. Alocasia, calathea, aglaonema are a few to look into. Diffenbachia is also a nice large statured plant that may suit your needs. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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EMCookjb

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## John

Bill,

Thank you for the information suggestions.  I will take a look at them.

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## bill

I need to retract my statement about the ficus now being adept at climbing glass. Apparently, some species of ficus doesn't care about glass. 
I took that of one of my tanks where ficus 'lance leaf' is allowed to grow freely. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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EMCookjb

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## John

I was looking around and saw a cork background that would fit my tank.  Any thoughts?

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## bill

Paul is a big fan of cork. I like the look of it. It holds up well and epiphytes love growing on it.  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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EMCookjb

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## John

I have an 18x24 inch piece coming.  I got some aquarium safe silicone to attach it to the back.  Thank you for support, its been fun going through the research and making this project happen.  I am going to look locally for some of the plants and maybe get some suggestions.   :Smile:

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## John

Update:  I got an 18 in by 24 in background on Friday.  I applied a couple of 3/8 inch scrap strips to the back of the cork.  This will allow me to run 3/8 inch tubing up the back unseen.  I unfortunately wasn't paying attention and the cork shifted at some point.  Best laid plans of mice and men.  Oh well, can't be perfect.  I took the opportunity to strip the tank and redo things.  Here are the pictures of the new look to the tank and how I installed the background.

Back of background picture:




Top down picture of new tank design:




View from the Front



View from the left:



View from the right:


























































I was trying to figure out how to install Mistiking mist heads.  I don't want to drill through glass.  While walking through the hardware store for inspiration, I found the "locking" suction cups.  The question then become how to "attach" the head to the to the hook, that narrows.  Then the answer came to me.  Hose washers.  They can be compressed in some ways while still maintaining rigidity to withstand tensions and pressures.  The cost for 2 packs of 2 medium suction cups and a pack of 10 washers was about $5.00 USD.

The Mistkind head attached to a locking suction cup using two garden hose washers:



Let me know what you think.  I am hoping to get the misting system up and running by the end of Monday.  Later this week I will add one or two bags of ABG.

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## bill

I love the mist head idea! The background looks excellent.  If you are feeling frisky, a drop of super glue on the mist head suction cups will keep them from coming off unless you remove them  :Wink: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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EMCookjb

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## John

Update:  I got most of the water/misting system done.  I even used the pump to prime the 3/8 inch drainage tubing.  Now to figure out to program the system to keep the humidity in the tank in the 90%+ range and aim the heads correctly.

Next phase is to look at lighting.  I have an Elive LED single track lighting system that can hold up to 14 LED pods.  There are "plant growing" pods available.  But I need to know if I need UVA/UVB for the frogs.  

Here is the system I have up and running.

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## bill

No uv light is needed for them. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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EMCookjb

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## John

Thank you for the information regarding the UV.  Makes things a lot easier.  I am looking at programing the Mistking.  What time of day is the best for it to "rain" in my vivarium?

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## bill

That's going to be up to you. I hand mist, so I can't really tell you when to most. I know many people most for a few seconds at a time, several times/day. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Vivariums In The Mist

Time is really up to you and depends when you have day/night cycle set up as far as the lights being on. However, don't mist too close to when the lights go off. You want to give time for the plants to dry off a bit.




> Thank you for the information regarding the UV.  Makes things a lot easier.  I am looking at programing the Mistking.  What time of day is the best for it to "rain" in my vivarium?

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EMCookjb

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## John

I have been able to maintain 91% humidity in the tank.  Is that high enough for dart frogs?

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## bill

That will work. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## bill

how are things going John? make any progress?

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EMCookjb

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## John

Thank you for asking.  I have stabilized the humidity at 91%.  I added some leaf litter.  The top couple of inches are "moist" but not soaking wet.  I also don't see any water in the bottom of the tank.  I have the time to mist twice a day for 3 minutes.  I am thinking its time to get some plants and springtails.  I am trying to decide whether to get tinks, specifically patricias,  or leuks.  I am thinking of placing the order for plants within the next week or so.  I am reading up on how to "plant" those plants.  I am realizing this is not like outside landscaping.  Any suggestion will help.  I am hoping to make decisions on the type of plants by the weekend.

John

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## Paul

I am WAY late in responding on this build again, but wanted to chime in. It is looking really good!

As Bill said I am a HUGE fan of the cork Panels. I have one tank currently that has it on 3 sides and I love the look it gives the tank. Plants freely grown on it and the moisture it holds helps keep the humidity a bit more stable.

For an automatic misting system I do the following (I am not saying I am right, but this is what is working great for me.) My MistKing system comes on every 3 hours and runs for 20 seconds. It comes on right after the lights come on and mists the last time 30mins before the lights go out. It keeps the tanks humidity up without over watering my plants. During the summer months I might reduce the misting duration from 20 seconds down to 15 because the house air wont be as dry.

Substrate - If you haven't already (and it doesn't sound like you have unless I missed the post) you should pour some destilled water onto your substrate and fill your drainage layer up till it is 1"- 1/2" from your soil. The water in the drainage layer will help maintain the tanks humidity and will also be a breeding ground for your springtail colony you add in. When pouring the water in be sure to spread it around the substrate. It's good for the whole thing to stay moist but not soaking wet. 

I love the Mist Head mount you came up with! Very creative!

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EMCookjb

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## John

When ordering plants, how I do know how many to buy?  I am looking at getting creeping figs, calathea "medallion" and moss.

John

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## Paul

I am bad at this. I either order to many or not enough. I try to error on the side of to many so I don't end up having to pay shipping twice. If you are not familiar with the plant google it to see how big it can get to. Big plants work in Vivs but will require more trimming to keep it under control.

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## bill

I normally plant light and let stuff grow in. You can always add more plants later  :Smile: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## John

Paul,

Thank you for the advice regarding adding water to the drainage layer.  I was able to use the pump to fill the drainage layer from the bottom up.  I also poured some water into the top of the soil layer as well, using the idea from Bill about putting tubing into the drainage layer.  I have been using distilled and reverse osmosis water.  I altered the misting schedule as you have it.  I will alter it as needed so that the soil is moist but not soggy.  I hoping to make a decision over the weekend regarding plants.

John

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## Josh

Hey Bill, I have a question for you regarding misting, because I hand mist like you. What's your schedule for misting and about how much distilled water do you use on say, a daily or weekly basis? I couldn't imagine doing more than 2 or 3 with hand misting, you're crazy! :Wink:

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EMCookjb

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## bill

> Hey Bill, I have a question for you regarding misting, because I hand mist like you. What's your schedule for misting and about how much distilled water do you use on say, a daily or weekly basis? I couldn't imagine doing more than 2 or 3 with hand misting, you're crazy!


well, first off, i use a 2 gallon pump mister.i go through 8 gallons of tap water/week. we actually have slightly acidic water in my city(6.8 pH), so i do not get water spots. i mist every night when i get home from work. i start with the tanks, and then move onto the plants on my baker's rack. takes me about 15 minutes. then another 15 minutes or so to feed the animals lol

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EMCookjb

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## John

Josh,

Thank you for asking that question.  I had not thought to ask how much water use people normally use, especially when using a Mistking system.

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## John

After much research, I am going to place my order tomorrow night and hopefully they will be here for the weekend.  I have decided to get one Fibus pumila (aka Creeping Fig) to put in kind of the middle of the tank and let it grow where it wants.  I also  decided on getting one or two Dieffenbachia (aka Star Bright) to put in the back third of the tank.  I am also going to put moss along the wood and let it go.  I am also getting a culture of springtails.  I will put half in the tank this weekend and culture the other half.  The plan is to decide on whether to go with "Patricias" or Leuks.  I kind of like the larger size of the "Patricias" but also like the attitude of the lueks.  Hmm ... decisions decisions.

I will post pictures this weekend.  I found a really nice piece of driftwood at Petco and will probably do some reorganizing over the next couple of nights.

I have read about having to "prepare" plants before planting them.  Since I am getting the plants from Josh's Frogs, do I still need to "process" them?

John

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## John

I got my plants today.  I ordered and planted one "Creeping fig", two Dieffenbachia or Star Brights, and some mood moss.  I also added about half a culture of springtails.  The other half, hopefully, was added to a box for culturing.  I also did some rearranging of the driftwood.  Now comes the hard part, patience.  I am having issues loading pictures.  I will load when I can.

Here is a link to my photobucket account with the some of the pictures.
http://s316.photobucket.com/user/jbc...og%20Sanctuary

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## John

> I got my plants today.  I ordered and planted one "Creeping fig", two Dieffenbachia or Star Brights, and some mood moss.  I also added about half a culture of springtails.  The other half, hopefully, was added to a box for culturing.  I also did some rearranging of the driftwood.  Now comes the hard part, patience.  I am having issues loading pictures.  I will load when I can.
> 
> Here is a link to my photobucket account with the some of the pictures.
> http://s316.photobucket.com/user/jbc...og%20Sanctuary

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## John

For some reason, I am having some trouble uploading pictures.  I have started developing a personal website for the vivarium.  Here is the link:

JBsfrogsanctuary

My vivarium is no LIVE.  Yeah.  Thank you everyone for getting me to this point.  I will continue to add to this thread with updates.

John

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## John

Do I need to tie the moss to the driftwood or will it attach itself?

John

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## bill

actually, both, kind of. you can tie it on at first, but eventually, it will attach itself. i normally just lay pieces in where i want them. if it doesn't stay, i either move it, or if it is a spot where i REALLY think it is needed, i use a few drops of super glue.

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EMCookjb

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## Paul

I do the same as bill. Lay it where I want it and it will attach itself in a few short months. If it is in a spot where it wont easily stay I will either put a few drops of super glue behind it or tie it in place with fishing line.

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EMCookjb

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## John

Thank you guys.  That helps a lot.   :Smile: 

John

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## John

I finally figured out how to post pictures on here.  Its been about 3 weeks since I planted the vivarium.  I have exchanged 4 LED plant growth pods for 4 more cool white LED pods for a total of 8 pods.  Its really starting to look good and the plants look like they are starting to settle in and get some real growth.  Specifically, both of the Dieffenbachias 'Star Bright' have new plant growth.  I have also added a bag of crushed leaves.  There are also a full culture of spingtails in the tank.  Thank you everyone for their advice.  I have thoroughly enjoyed building this vivarium.  

I am maintaining 75-80% humidity and 67 to 77 degrees in the vivarium.  I using about a gallon of distilled water per week.  I have two containers growing springtail cultures and waiting to get a culture of isopods from Josh's Frogs.  I still haven't quite made up my mind regarding getting "patricias" or leuks.  I am leaning toward the pats.

Got a question for the "veterans".  I don't really want to breed PDFs.  Are there ways to ensure that they don't breed and/or what can I do if they do breed?

John

Front view and Oh please don't mind my reflection.



Dieffenbachias 'Star Bright' 



Creeping Fig

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## Eli

It's looking really great! Pretty soon those plants will be huge! 

I would never consider myself a veteran, but ways that I can think of the prevent breeding are
-buying frogs that are already sexed
-I have heard that some darts (like Leucs) are seasonal breeders so if you keep conditions consistent (as in no "dry season") they will be less likely to breed
-you could cull any eggs but I don't really recommend it. 
-you could also sell the tads

those are just what I thought of but I'm sure there are better ways out there

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EMCookjb

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## bill

Cull eggs or get all the same gender.  I cull and I use 'biologic birth control', Otherwise known as snails. Snails are notorious for eating frog eggs. But it's not a 100% effective methods. 

You could always try froggie condoms  :Wink: 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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EMCookjb

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## John

I am doing my final bit of research regarding the type of PDF to get.  I am looking for one that is bold, will climb the wood, and relatively large.  My first thought was to get a Leucomela or a "patricia", but now I am wondering about getting an azeureus.  Any thoughts or insights would be helpful.

John

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