# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) >  Dart frog species question

## AbranV

This will be an easy question compared to the plethora of questions I usually ask.

So yesterday I made it to my first reptile Expo. This trip was extra special because my lovely wife was by my side, and trying to convince her that she'll have a good time in a room full of snakes was no easy task.

What she didn't expect though, was the variety of dart frogs available  :Wink:  Which means.......I, sorry, we get to have darts!

My question is...what are the smaller, bolder species of darts?

The breeder had a 10gallon set up with three or four small darts, I believe they were yellow-black with blue legs. They were TINY and had tons of personality.  I may be off on my descriptions, I looked a so many frogs yesterday, they're all blended together.

Anyways, that's my question

Thanks!

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## bill

you are going to have to define smaller. thumbnails, like Ranitomeya genus? around 1", like Oophaga genus? or slightly larger? there are so many species available now, it's hard to narrow things down unless you can be a bit more specific.

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## bill

also, keep in mind, that you most likely saw froglets at the show. even my Phyllobates terribilis 'mint' are tiny, around 3/4", but will grow into about 2" killers.  :Smile:

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## AbranV

Thanks for the reply. Looking  back at what I wrote, I may not have been clear as I could. 

Chipmunk, you gave me what I was looking for, a general idea of smaller darts like the ones you had mentioned. 

I figured that most of the frogs were froglets, but I'm so new to darts that I can't tell a froglet from a thumbnail. 

I'm in the very first steps of all of this and have a lot of homework to do.

I'm sure I'll be asking quite a few more as I learn.

Thanks

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## FwoGiZ

If someone used to snakes come see me and says he saw tiny poison frogs with tons of personality, black and yellow with blue legs, I'd tell em to google "cobalt tinctorius" and tell me if that is what you've seen.
If that is the case, well these are considered large dart frogs  :Wink:  Good thing tho, is they're a GREAT "beginner" dart frog.  They're super bold and eat anything! Great colors, easy to find healthy frogs!
Read a lil bit about vivarium and self sustainability then when you feel confortable, cobalt tincts would be an awesome choice!!!

"advanced" frogs would be quite boring to avg people...  check out dendrobates azureus too, and definitely phyllobates terribilis (my fav  :Wink:

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## bill

The op is asking about smaller frogs. Tincs and terribilis are some of the largest darts. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## Ssyx

Epipedobates anthonyi are small but quite bold ones.  :Frog Smile:

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## AbranV

Thanks for all the help. I found this little guy at PETCO. 

Cobalt tinc?  He was less than an inch, awesome personality, very active.

PETCO had it listed as an azures. I asked the guy that worked there, and wasn't sure, nothing against him, he's not the normal reptile guy.

This little frog was the same that I was trying to explain in my OP

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## AbranV

oops, forgot the pic

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## Paul

I am not an expert at IDing frogs, but that looks like a Patricia to me and not a cobalt. That frog will get between 1.5 and 2" or so depending on if it is male or female. a 10g tank for the one will be ok for a while but you will want to look into a 20L tank at some point.

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## bill

I really hate to agree with Paul, but I do in the fact that that is not a cobalt. I mean, it's not a clear pic, but I would say it's either a patricia, or an oyapock. Both D. Tinctorius morphs, so care is the same. 

Here's a pic of one of my patricia froglets you can compare to



Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## FwoGiZ

Ya the frog in the picture isn't a cobalt.
Same care veryyy similar behavior too. Same colors. Different patterns and body shape.

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## AbranV

I just got an email back from the breeder that I met at the expo last weekend. He said that the darts he had on display were Dendrobates tinctorius “Green sip”. 

My next set of questions....

The green sip and Patricia were very active frogs, the Patricia was especially "playful" .  Is this a common trait among tincs? 

Also, there's a few more days left on petco's $1 per gallon sale. What would be a good size tank for 2-3 tincs? Let's say Patricia's or green sips.

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## FwoGiZ

Yes tincts are quite bold and like to hangout in the open.  Auratus are much shyer frogs while pumilios are interesting because of their breeding and mating behavior while not as bold as tincts.  Terribilis are even better at this than tincts and bigger sized and much more voracious but I guess their patterbless uni color (mint, yellow or orange) goes against them.

All in all, I think you are marking a very good choice of frog!
Tank wise, they're terrestrial frogs so 2-3 would be good in a 24x12  but i'd try and get at least 30x12 if I was you.
Height depends what false bottom and plants you wanna use.
30x12x18 is what I'd get. Make sure you get the good female/male ratio.. it's important for tincts else they'll fight.
Don't remember what it is tho :/

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## Paul

I would get a 40b from the $1 a gallon sale. They measure in at 36 Long, 18 Deep, and 16ish tall. 

Tincs are all in all a very bold. They do great in groups until they reach sexual maturity. Males will fight over females and territory. The females can eat other females eggs. They are just big jerks like that. You can combat this by designing your tank with some "line of sight" breaks along the substrate. This will allow competing frogs to stay out of each others view. With frogs it seems that the old saying is true "Out of Site, out of mind"

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## bill

I agree with Paul on the size. That's the size I keep my 4 Patricias in. 


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## AbranV

I really appreciate all of the help and sharing of your knowledge with all of my questions. Everyone has been a huge help. 

But I do have TWO more....

If I go with the darts, would it be OK to start with one, then add another? Or best to get a pair?

And the toughest, most difficult, bang-my-head against the wall, sleep losing question of them all....

Darts or Pacmans?

Seriously, this is the most difficult one of them all

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## Paul

1 is fine and then adding more as you go. Nothing wrong with that. 

I can't help you with the Darts or Pacmans. 2 totally different frogs with very different care needs you will need to keep. I can say that housing a dart and a Pacman together would be a bad idea ( i know you didn't mean it like that I am just being silly :P )

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## Lynn

> I just got an email back from the breeder that I met at the expo last weekend. He said that the darts he had on display were Dendrobates tinctorius “Green sip”. 
> 
> My next set of questions....
> 
> The green sip and Patricia were very active frogs, the Patricia was especially "playful" .  Is this a common trait among tincs? 
> 
> Also, there's a few more days left on petco's $1 per gallon sale. What would be a good size tank for 2-3 tincs? Let's say Patricia's or green sips.




I think you might send a photo to the breeder for an accurate identification?
This is especially true if you plan to add another frog as species should not be mixed.
??? I'm questioning the light blue legs?

Here is a pair of Dendrobates tinctorius 'Green Sipaliwini'


sorry - blurry 
better photo  - young adult:
http://www.frogforum.net/members/fly...ipaliwini.html

additional photos:

green sip
Dendrobates tinctorius 'Green Sipaliwini' - Dendrobates tinctorius | Josh's Frogs

oyapok
Dendrobates tinctorius 'Oyapok' - Dendrobates tinctorius | Josh's Frogs

patricia
Dendrobates tinctorius 'Patricia' - Dendrobates tinctorius | Josh's Frogs

There can be differences in appearances from one import year to another.
Some species have more differences than others.

 :Butterfly:

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## AbranV

> I think you might send a photo to the breeder for an accurate identification?
> This is especially true if you plan to add another frog as species should not be mixed.
> ??? I'm questioning the light blue legs?
> 
> Here is a pair of Dendrobates tinctorius 'Green Sipaliwini'
> 
> 
> sorry - blurry 
> better photo  - young adult:
> ...


Sorry about the confusion on the darts, the pic I posted was from PETCO. In the OP I mentioned that I met a breeder, and at the time I had not heard back from him.

From this post alone I've learned more about darts and their subtle  differences, than I had by randomly surfing the forum.

Thanks again everyone!

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## bill

> From this post alone I've learned more about darts and their subtle  differences, than I had by randomly surfing the forum.
> 
> Thanks again everyone!


That's because we're a pretty brilliant group of people. Lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## AbranV

Seriously guys, your are a "pretty brilliant group of people" but what really sets you all apart from the rest is how overwhelmingly helpful everyone is, their willingness to share. Not to mention the clear cut, no BS answers that I ask for. 

I have many hobbies/interests, which nowadays means many forums. Frog Forum is one of the most member friendly and user respectful forum I've joined.

Your knowledge and willingness is even more important when dealing with the health and safety of somewhat fragile animals.

So thank you from me, Mija my bullfrog, Elway and Atwater my PCF's and the soon to be (fill in the blank frog) I will be adding soon.


Which brings me back to pac or dart? Dart or pac?

Still can't make up my mind

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deranged chipmunk

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## bill

Awwww, stop! You are going to make Paul blush!!

Darts all the way! But I am biased. I have only kept tree frogs, darts and mantellas. But pacs do carry a special appeal. Heather has 2 and her's are so cute!! Most pacs are. I know I am of no help, sorry lol I think you should get both!!


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## AbranV

I think going to an Expo was a bad idea. It's sooooo much harder when you finally get to see all of them in the flesh. A person needs to be careful I was thinking "I'll take that one, and that one, ooooh look at that one" During the whole freaking expo.

Which is why my wife has enrolled me into *A.A.(amphibians anonymous)

"Hello, my name is Abran, and I collect frogs" "I've been collecting frogs for three years" "its been one summer since my last frog"



*I mean no disrespect to the actual AA, and its members

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## FwoGiZ

Terribilis and pacman are my two favorite frogs of ALL frogs.
Lemme tell you what I think about them.
Pacman is a garbage can with 2 eyes and a huge mouth.. not even sure they have legs.  They'll burrow, sometimes you won't even see them, sometimes they'll just be half burrowed, usually when they're not stressed or have some kind of cover over their head.  They will eat ANYTHING they can, including your fingers so tongs are a must.  They will ignore small food items so I am not sure crickets is a good staple for them.. they might ingest too much coco fiber and that really isn't good as it can cause impaction.  Ultimately you wanna hand (or more like tong right?) feed em.  Roaches, earthworms, a pinky every couple months to show off with your friends... they can be picky eater too and that can be problematic. They require 80F and 80% humidity. It can be tricky to keep temp up because you can't use under tank heatmats.  They never move... but feeding em is exciting and quite a show.  They're nocturnal but you can wake em up during day time and they'll still eat but I guess that depends on the frog individual; you don't wanna do that with an already stressed frog! They don't require big tank either... lid optional! Only ONE frog can be kept in a tank... they're way too mean. Tank is vveeeryy easy to setup!
There are lotso different type of pacmans;
ornate; great colors and they'll keep it... along with cranwelli, I am finding em the most voracious and reach biggest size
cranwell; literally like an ornate except they'll loose their color as they get bigger, to turn into a dull brown yellowish color.. so if you like green and red, go for an ornate! cranwell is the only readily avail albino too so I'd go ornate but if you want cranwell, get an albino one! both frogs should be around 30-50$
cornuta; way different colors and patterns and shape. light green to light tan, pointy eyes. they're usually a bit more shy, harder to keep 60-90$
fantasy; they're prolly the only hybrid frog accepted (for some reason) on the frog market.. they're AWESOME frogs! Crazy colors.. similar shape to cornuta with cranwell behavior... prolly cause it's an hybrid of both  :Wink:  40-50$
samurai; those are pretty rare and I can't tell you much about them... I never had one but my friend did and it died within 2 years but I think the poor thing had a calcium overdose (mouse staple is very bad) price can range from 100-XXX$!!!

Now for darts, there are too many to go into it but if we want to compare to pacmans pros n cons wise... well first off they're diurnal and can vary in how bold they are, sizes, and behavior. Colors are almost infinite... they're super easy to feed as fruitflies are sooo cheap and easy to culture... prices can range from 20-XXX$. Much more interesting if you have at least 2-3-4 frogs depending on species! They're way more entertaining than a pacman frog in the sense as they'll constantly be doing something during daytime, then again it depends on species, while a pacman frog is a one time "oh did you even see that? it ate that roach in like 1/16th of a sec!!!" and then frog go dormant again... Dart frogs will want a more elaborated vivarium than a pacman, because usually you'll wanna plant it so there is a bit more time involved but for most people, it's actually a blast! Or you can just have it made by another frogger... lots will be more than happy to help you out or even just build one for you!


If you tell us what you think is so kewl about frogs or what interest you, we can help you make a better choice but I am telling you, those tincts are great!! They're similar to some pretty tropical fishes! They look pretty, they basically just move around and kewl to watch eating... that's it!

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## bill

> I think going to an Expo was a bad idea. It's sooooo much harder when you finally get to see all of them in the flesh. A person needs to be careful I was thinking "I'll take that one, and that one, ooooh look at that one" During the whole freaking expo.
> 
> Which is why my wife has enrolled me into *A.A.(amphibians anonymous)
> 
> "Hello, my name is Abran, and I collect frogs" "I've been collecting frogs for three years" "its been one summer since my last frog"
> 
> 
> 
> *I mean no disrespect to the actual AA, and its members


Expos were created by the devil, I swear it to be true. If you thought it was bad just looking for frogs, think of us who keep other things. The last expo i went to, Mrs. chipmunk joined me. All things were going well until I got caught up at the tarantula tables. She was fine with all the frogs and all the snakes, it was the spiders she hated most, and of course, are one of my loves. 

And I agree, I walk through expos going, I'll take that frog and that frog and that frog and OOH! Geckos! I'll take him and her and her and him and LOOK! Snakes!! It's never ending!! Lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## AbranV

Funny you brought Mrs. Chipmunk up. It was my wife and I's  first expo. She fell in love with the pacs and darts that day, BUT the most surprising thing out of that trip was the mantids!

My wife was enthralled with all of the different types.  Which means we will eventually have one in our collection. I'll have questions about those later. Right now I need to strike while the irons hot and she changes her mind about another frog....

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## bill

Lucky you! I can never find mantids at the shows, and I so want an orchid mantis!! 

It was my wife and daughter's first show each. My daughter loved it. In fact, if daddy didn't spend all his money on frogs, she would have ended up with a hatchling King snake lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

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## AbranV

Chipmunk, I left you a little gift in your inbox. Let me know if you don't get it and I'll resend it.

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## Lynn

> Sorry about the confusion on the darts, the pic I posted was from PETCO. In the OP I mentioned that I met a breeder, and at the time I had not heard back from him.
> 
> From this post alone I've learned more about darts and their subtle  differences, than I had by randomly surfing the forum.
> 
> Thanks again everyone!


I'm so glad you were confused too!
Billy accused me of "needing more coffee".
 :Big Grin:  Something , although he is unaware of this, he will pay for......dearly !

 :Butterfly:

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## Lynn

> Seriously guys, your are a "pretty brilliant group of people" but what really sets you all apart from the rest is how overwhelmingly helpful everyone is, their willingness to share. Not to mention the clear cut, no BS answers that I ask for. 
> 
> I have many hobbies/interests, which nowadays means many forums. Frog Forum is one of the most member friendly and user respectful forum I've joined.
> 
> Your knowledge and willingness is even more important when dealing with the health and safety of somewhat fragile animals.
> 
> So thank you from me, Mija my bullfrog, Elway and Atwater my PCF's and the soon to be (fill in the blank frog) I will be adding soon.
> 
> 
> ...



Dart !!!!!!!   :Smile:

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## Vivariums In The Mist

Darts!!!!!

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