# General Topics > General Discussion & News > Comments >  Frogs and Pet Stores

## clownonfire

Hi,

I've been pondering about the following post since last weekend. Here's the situation: last weekend, my wife and I were taking a walk and we stopped in a pet store. We usually try and avoid these places, but we indulged in a bit of curiosity. They were carrying darts, *Cobalts* and *Azureus*. At an extravagant price (x2.5 what they paid to the breeder - who is one I know). These froglets were housed together (4 of them) in a mini Exo-Terra with one plastic Exo-Terra bromeliad. As if this was not enough to turn your stomach around, the tank didn't seem wet enough, and there were no hiding place for any of them.

Now you will tell me that this is custom and it's what to be expected from pet stores... But somehow I can't stay silent about this... I know these froglets are still too young to be territorial and to breed, but the whole setup stressed me, so I can just imagine how it stresses these frogs. I contacted the staff and asked to talk to the manager. But I have been told she wouldn't give a rat's a**. Any suggestions?

The other aspect that bothers me is why did the breeder sell these to a pet supplier, knowing these froglets were going to be housed together. Now in his defense, I do not know if he even is aware about the state of things. So breeders, my question is for you: Is it common practice? Do you guys inquire or inform the pet supplier about the conditions in which these frogs should be kept? And if so, and these tips are ignored, do you continue selling to these stores? Is it money VS integrity?

I spoke to another pet supplier closer to our house, they built a new viv, a large one, one for darts, and he was telling me they are waiting for all sorts of darts to populate this viv.... 

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Eric

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## Michael

Eric,

Some thoughts on this issue in no particularly order.

First off the pet store owners are in the business of making a dollar to live by, pay their staffs and rent/utilities. So that is probably going to cause prices to be higher then through a dealer. 

Most don't have the floor space to provide the encloses we keep are frogs in. That is really the same for any animal/fish/reptile sold in stores. In our homes we give them much better living environments. 

They are in the business of turning over the merchandise just as any store. So the small cages might or might not be a issue. ( All pet owners despise this issue, There is no simple answer for that )

Building a large vivarium and displaying a wide variety of frogs in it makes for the WOW factor to the average customer. Even those who know better then to keep different species in one habitat have that momentary aw feeling when seeing them that way.

As for breeders allowing this I would imagine that some may or may not care.  They really can't do anything about what happens after they sell to a store other then refuse to do so in the future.  That is a personal decision each must make.  

Maybe the store owners are not really educated enough on the proper care of frog housing.

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## clownonfire

On a retail perspective, I understand. When I’m not busy obsessing about frogs, I make a living in marketing; web marketing. It’s my job to make you want something. I understand that pet shop owners have the bottom line in mind. But in this day in age, equitable/greener businesses are striving. As a web consultant, I will also chose to promote a brand in which I believe, and will not work for a product I do not believe in, nor one in which I do not respect its values.

We as  consumers have a choice of encouraging or not such a store. We have stores in my neighbourhood that will chose to house species without mixing them, even if it might not cater to the general public from a visual stand. And these stores opt for education as their sales tool: they preach what they teach by displaying their animals the way they will tell you they should be housed once acquired by you. As a consumer (in this case a very aware consumer), I will not support a store if they purposely and knowingly display/house animals in ways that could be harmful to them. Why would I anyway? And unfortunately, beyond the business aspect of it, they promote and encourage “species mixing” unbeknownst to them as the everyday consumer will not know any better when it comes to frogs, and we will read a thread on this very forum by a very excited new frog owner, proud of his mini Exo-Terra tank, with 4 dart frogs of two different species with a heat lamp... 

I am still curious to read the opinion of a breeder when it comes to selling to pet store owners (and I’m not talking about reputable and careful stores like Josh Frogs or Black Jungle). Is it the bottom line, or the hobby that comes first?

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## Michael

I agree about not supporting a business that either mistreats their animals, fails to follow proper practices or educates the potential buyer on proper care.  

If enough people refuse to give their business to such places either they will change or go out of business.

Poor customer service equals going out of business.

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## poison beauties

Eric there are 100 times as many shops like that down here. The way I deal with it is to offer my services for free and tell them what could be advanced and bettered. Sometimes they act like they are the top of the latter and the best of the best how dare you question my skills and the others are interested in getting help. 
To the ones who want help I help them. To the others I let them know quickly I know more about the one or two darts in their shop than they know about all amphibians and make them aware that our hobby keeps track of what shops are good and bad and we spread the word and it wont be long before they cant get those little frogs at such a low price as no one wants to sell to the equivalent of a puppy farm.
I have a list of herp shops Ive sold darts to by the hundreds over the years and I can guarantee the frogs I ship out will be kept properly until sold. Here is a tip to all. The hobby as far as darts go is small, the only way we will expand to a point that will equal the rest of the herp hobby is to spread the cb frogs out to where new comers will see them. The boards dont draw much attention. The herp shops and KS do. So offering the herpshops/ petshops a deal on the frog on the grounds they care for them properly is a plus for us all. Otherwise we are just trading and selling dartfrogs back and forth to one another. 
I find that most of the time if you walk in and directly confront them about what needs to be fixed or bettered they are happy to atleast hear you out......that is about all we can do.

Michael

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## Eric Walker

I have sold some of my asperum froglets to my local reptile store only because I had plenty and didnt want to pay out of pocket for feeder rodents.  some sold right away but the remaining was being housed with a bumble bee toad.  I was not too happy.  after talking to one of the ownes she tell me that they are fine :EEK!: .  she even tried keeping the toad with an ''inexpensive treefrog'' first to make sure the toxins would not affect them. again :EEK!: .    to date, they still have one left and now it is being housed with a reed frog of some sort.   I will never give them the privalage of getting my frogs again after this and by no means would I ever buy one from them.  

something has to be done with a surplus of frogs and this can help aleviate some of the need for buying wc frogs in some cases but i will not be the one doing it unless there are strict procedures followed. 

now at this same shop they have some SI anthonyi being housed and they are the only specie in this cage.  Notice I did not use the word viv,  it is far from that.  the sphag moss in the bottom looks dry as hell and it has a full screen top :Confused: .  the frogs
"look" fine but I am blown away at how they are not frog jerky.

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## Eric Walker

michael, I got the type of response you talked about from the pet shop i refered to when I tried to help out.  I also tried to explain why the SI's they had where not tricolor like they had them labled and was just ignored.

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## poison beauties

I hear you, when they irritate me bad enough I just walk through the entire herp section pointing out all their mistakes loud enough to where others hear. They really like it when that happens. One time a petco pissed me off just enough that the guy on the other side of the displays was talking to another employee about purchasing an albino burm for the $400 they charge and on my way out from calling the herp dept manager an idiot for keeping their cal kings all together in one viv I walked up to him and told him Id give him one free or the adult male I was selling if hed just spread the word that the people in this shop are idiots and not to buy here. He agreed, followed me to the house and picked up the snake and took it back up there to show off as they told him I was a liar and and banned me from there on my way out.

Not like there arent a dozen more of the stores in the ATL area.

Michael

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## bshmerlie

Michael...I'm beginning to think you like being banned.  LOL :Big Grin:   Although if you think about it beyond the $1 tank sale it really isn't such a big deal to be banned from PetCo. You're not missing out on a whole lot Mike.   :Smile:

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## clownonfire

@Eric and Mike: I'm not surprised by either one of you. You walk by integrity. I really want to inquire about the breeder in question...

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## Don

You would think that if they created small separated vivs with some decor, fake planted or real, they would promote selling that decor along with the inhabitant. 

When you view just a reptile or frog in an almost empty tank, you take home the animal and a tank.  When you see a fully planted display, and sell the products inside, you have a better chance of having the customer want that to show that off in their home.  You sell the plants, the decor and get the customer more interested in the living situation of the critter instead of just having a frog.

The small store by me separatsd things, they also have a breeder stop in and rearrange the tanks to make them function better with mister and drip systems so I applaud them

The other shop I go to has complete vivs built and its nice, but they are breeders themselves.

As for Petcos and such, I point out issues when I can but they are more interested in the plain empty tank so customers can see the critters inside.  My local Petco isn't too bad and separates the animals and also puts in some decor, but I doubt humidity levels are ever observed which sucks.
I rarely go there unless its a last ditch effort to find something I need.

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## Whistly

Not that it's frogs but my Zebra x Bengalese finch babies I would like to sell to pet shops but don't for the fact that when I look at the birds there's either 30 finches crammed into the smallest cages I have ever seen only about 30cm long and 20cm high or the aviary's which have quails and chickens on the floor with budgies finches lorakeets love birds and othet birds all in poor condition with no baths or places to sit so they cling to the wire. I walked out of that one and the other 2 pet shops were the same so I'm unable to sell them because I want a clear conscience and to know they're being looked after unfortunately I can't do that so I'm getting swamped down with finches.

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## TheBambooGoanna

I typed up a whole long rant about pet stores but I decided to spare you all  :Big Grin: 

I'll just say this: I hate pet stores. I think they have a responsibility to properly maintain their livestock until a suitable buyer comes along, not only for the animal's comfort but as a role model for the buyer and general public. They have not lived up to this responsibility at all. Yes, people should research the animal they wish to purchase beforehand...that is still their responsibility. However, under no circumstances, should pet stores give out false/inaccurate information, either directly or by example. Especially not if said false/inaccurate information is being conveyed purely for profit (to save the store money etc.) 

I hardly ever go into pet stores anymore, just because I find it really hard to see animals being kept in pathetic conditions. But the times I do go in, I make sure the people know _exactly_ what they're doing wrong lol

Dang, I kind went off in a rant again...sorry! At least this version is much shorter  :Cool: 

Anyways, that's just my 2 cents :Smile:

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## Brit

You may have seen my postings about pet shops and how they treat their animals, especially one in particular down near my house. I purchased my Blue Phase WTF from them a few months ago just to save it from the agony of having to live in a terrible place like that, I'd like to think I've made his life better by purchasing him, even though I was supporting the store in a way.

I went into this particular shop today as a matter of fact and saw a full size adult crested gecko (A beautiful creature. If I had had the money and the space I would have rescued him too...) in an Exo Terra nano, sitting on a branch. His body length filled the tank, I doubt if he could even have laid long ways in the tank as the branch he was lying on was diagonal inside the set up. I'm not sure if typing it out has the same effect as the visual I got today when I saw him, my eyes watered out of pity and anger at the fact that they were housing such a beautiful animal this way. But it did not surprise me, they sell RETFs for $80 and pack all their animals in cages too small to be long term housing. They're always over stocked and out of room, keeping turtles in cages so small that the poor things can't even turn around. It is sickening to see, and if I was bolder I could give them an earful about the way their treating their animals. Not to mention the staff are a bunch of stuck up pricks who think they know everything about herps, when obviously, by the state of things, they do NOT. 

I was in this shop and saw a small baby tortoise wedged between some decor and the glass of his tank, he was struggling to get out, kicking his legs and wiggling his body. I don't know if the thing would have survived if I hadn't gotten someone to come and help him, and when she did I thanked her and she looked at me like I was nothing but a bother. That poor turtle was kicking for at least fifteen minutes before I went and got her, it took her three seconds to move him, and she gave me the dirtiest look I have ever seen in my life.

That's just my brief splurge, but I agree in part with what everyone has to say. If only regulations were up to code at places like this and if the owners/managers actually cared, maybe we wouldn't have so much to complain about.

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## clownonfire

Thank you all for your comments. And I agree with the consensus: pet shops have a responsibility in promoting the wellbeing of the animals they carry. If they can't even do this themselves, imagine the consumer's perception and preconceived ideas when he brings back one of these home. It's basically giving him/her all the wrong tools to cater to his animal. 

And we do see it here all the time. And of course the new frog owner is proud of his frog, and enclosure, and it's often heartbreaking to see the enclosure a White's will be in, for example. Yes, of course, the consumer has a role in researching before purchasing a frog. But you know as much as I do that a lot of these purchases are impulse buying, and they will only mimic what they have seen in store.

What also irritates me is that some owners, like the one I am speaking about, will not make any changes to her dart tank. Although giving her all the arguments, she insist in keeping two species together in a miniature enclosure. I say will all call her and harass her!  :Wink: 

Eric

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## Immortal

This is a good thread!

My heart breaks every time I go into a pet store. I hate seeing the puppies dying for attention in tiny cages (which they probably never get out to go for walks) and your not even allowed to touch them unless you are interested in them. I know they don't want them to get sick from anything, but come on, that is rediculous.

Probably one of the things that bothers me the most is pet stores trying to sell CATS!! ARE YOU BLEEPING KIDDING ME!?!?!?! I have 11 cats (had 16 a while ago) and every single one was a stray or a kitten of a stray. My family fixed every single one! That is thousands of dollars - and they are trying to sell a kitten for $50!?!?!?!!? .... I'm just going to stop there with the cats.

They also always think they know everything because they are a pet store.. I always tell them I've had basically every animal you could have as a pet and I know a lot about animals. I don't want to act like a "know it all" but compared to them I basically am lol. I've only just been introduced to the frog world (besides having a couple water frogs as a child) and I've already learned so much in the past couple weeks - a lot more than they know in the pet stores. If they'd just take the time to research every specific animal and train their employees it would do so much good. 

I too also like to point out things that are done wrong in pet stores - just loud enough for someone to over hear me. Some stores near us house tarantulas in horrible conditions.. I'll say "Well she hates her substrate she won't even touch it, it's too wet!" for example. I also like to say when I'm talking about T's in a pet store that I have 13 of them - yeah, I'd like to think my boyfriend and I know quite a bit about them lol. We've done a lot of research ever since we got our first T a couple years ago.

I wish they would listen to people and take advice if they don't really know about a species. I too have seen turtles that can't turn around in tanks, amongst many other animals who you feel so bad for. 

Here's the thing. We could rescue them all so they can be healthy and happy. But if we do, they'll just get more animals in that will be in crappy conditions. So what do we do? Rescue them so they can get more, or walk away and hope they can't sell what they have so they don't get anymore in? It's a hard decision. Sometimes I walk away, sometimes I save. 

We already had a bunch of Ts and saved an avic avic who was in what looked like an ant tunnel. She was at the very top trying to climb but had nothing to climb. Avic avics are tree spiders, they don't want to be in an ant tunnel! No matter what T they get they always put it in the same thing. 

And of course Haiku, the red eye I got yesterday. Doesn't know the difference in night and day, was dark green from stress being housed with other species of frogs and too much heat lamps above his head in his short enclosure. He's already a brighter green today!

I kind of can't believe all these pet stores can get away with doing what they do. Even animal welfare people don't know exactly how every single species should be kept properly. 

So I guess sometimes pet stores are a necessary evil. I have to buy crickets from them and accessories. Sometimes pets too if I can't find a breeder. 

If I do breed, I don't think I'd sell to pet stores. Even if they had good conditions for the frogs, how do I know they won't sell it to some idiot who won't take care of it and it'll end up suffering to death? =/

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## JSG

Dudes and Dudettes,
One word: LAW.
As far as i know there are laws governing the basic requirements for the housing of animals, these laws also apply to pet stores like everyone else. So, if you feel that voting with your wallet is not going to bring change around quickly enough - go to the law.
Here in South Africa we have a few very good animal anti cruelty associations. PAWS and the SPCA are just 2 that leaps to mind. And if they don't get involved quickly enough we have TV shows where people can phone in and lodge a complaint against certain stores / businesses. These TV shows then visit the business in question and thus everything is splashed out in the public eye.
Then I also know of people who have splashed cellphone footage on YOU TUBE which have destroyed a business.
So yeah, I do believe there are good pet stores, breeders, hobbyist etc, and I also believe in supporting them, as for the rest...I believe in shaming them as they deserve nothing less (or more LOL) after they have declined getting help to get on to the right track.

Thanks for this thread Eric!

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## Immortal

I think it'd be better for pet stores to carry pet supplies and not animals. That people should get animals from breeders/rescuers. 

Problem is the law dosn't always give a rat's ****. I know a place where they have horses and lock a stallion in his stall 24/7 standing in the worst conditions of his fecies that mushrooms are growing in the stall. This amongst many other things at the same place, very gross, very wrong to have any animal living there. So many people know this place and nobody does anything about it. Sometimes I wonder if I should call the OSPCA but I don't even remember the address to the place, then I'd feel like if anything happened it'd be my fault lol. 

Yeah once the public sees that kinda thing, everything can change. I have mixed feelings on the pet stores I go to. They can be helpful, nice people in general, but they still don't know enough about a lot of their animals and I feel bad for most of the animals who have to be there. I don't think I could ever "do" anything about it. I wish if I said "Would you mind me giving you some pointers on how to house/care some animals?" And if they said "Oh yes sure that'd be great!" Chances are they think I know nothing about animals, and technically how can I prove I do? I don't have a degree in anything. And they'd probably want me to leave and not come back lol. I just wish people would be more open to learning.

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## clownonfire

Here's an update on the frogs that started this thread. I passed by the pet shop again to see if the dart frogs were still there. Out of 2 D. tinctorius Cobalt and 2 D. tinctorius Azureus, only one cobalt was left. So I wrote a friend of mine who I ended up befriending since I started this thread and she let me know that the three other frogs died. 

Although juvies, these frogs were fed 3/8 crickets, if not bigger, and were living in a mini Exo-Terra, barely misted, with a large fake Exo-Terra in the middle of the terra. I will take a picture next time I go. 

Anyway, the store is L'Animalerie Paul, 930 Mont-Royal East in Montreal. If you're ever in Montreal, do not shop there. I tries talking to the owner but she didn't care about what I had to say. 

Eric

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## TheBambooGoanna

:Frown:  Aw, that's so sad. At least the ones that died are no longer suffering...



> Although juvies, these frogs were fed 3/8 crickets


I actually saw something similar last weekend in a local Pet World. It was the first time I've been into a pet store all year, and the first thing I see is a tank of hatchling size Bearded Dragons  trying so hard to figure out how to eat the 1" crickets they were being fed. I've seen a lot of sad things but I was almost in tears. I can just imagine those poor frogs going through the same thing.



> Anyway, the store is L'Animalerie Paul, 930 Mont-Royal East in Montreal. If you're ever in Montreal, do not shop there. I tries talking to the owner but she didn't care about what I had to say.


Sort of OT but does anybody know if these people were at the April 09 expo in Ottawa?

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## clownonfire

I don't think the pet shop owners will be there. They won't be at the show on May 1st in Pointe-Claire either. The breeder will be. I already had a talk with him, and I don't think he will be selling to them anymore.

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## TheBambooGoanna

I only asked because I remember there being a sketchy place from Montreal there and I think they were actually barred from coming back to any expos (the had crammed tons animals into salad containers -like, they had over 15 juvenile Nile Monitors in one container) But this was over 2 years ago, so I don't remember the exact name of the place.

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## clownonfire

> I only asked because I remember there being a sketchy place from Montreal there and I think they were actually barred from coming back to any expos (the had crammed tons animals into salad containers -like, they had over 15 juvenile Nile Monitors in one container) But this was over 2 years ago, so I don't remember the exact name of the place.


There's another place in Montreal that have too many little containers of WC frogs and other herps. I wont name it, but it might be this one...

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