# Frogs & Toads > Dart Frogs (Dendrobatidae) > General Discussion >  Help sexing my dart frogs

## bogalog

Hi all, I wasnt sure on the best place to post this, so i thought the general area would be the best bet.

Basically, I bought 2 Tinctorius (Patricia morph) recently, both the same age, but am unsure of their sex. They dont tend to spend much time close to each other, and it's only today I managed to get a good picture of both of them for comparison.

I think JimO said they were probably both males, but I'd appreciate it if someone would confirm that based on the pic below:



The one on the left is male for sure, the one on the right has large-ish pads, but a different body shape, which is why I'd like to make sure. I havent seen them fighting, and they both eat fine, but the one on the right is a lot more shy.

Thanks!

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## John Clare

I agree with Jim.  They don't need to fight to intimidate each other.  The fatter one is likely the dominant one.  I've got 2 males that are in the same situation - one is fatter than the other.

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## bogalog

Thanks John, 2 males it is, now I can name them!

From what I've seen the leaner one is more active, and first to get to the food, and more dominant (have seen him jump onto the others head once) but as a newbie I may not be able to spot the subtle intimidation of either.

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## wesleybrouwer

2 females will fight much quicker then 2 males for some reason.
In most frog species it's better having more males then females if you like more then a couple.

The shape of the body and size of the toepads are just indications,
looking at just that is proven wrong for a lot of people.
Females do tend to be somewhat bigger in most cases then males when fully grown.
Like already said, it could be a fat male.

Altough if i would guess i'd say male left, female right.
Since the right one is build more feminin like and got smaller nuptial pads as i see it in this picture.
Could be perspective ofcourse.

Having a male and female doesn't necessarily mean they tend to spend time together.
Just as with people, they must like eachother to become a good breeding couple.
Best way is to buy a group and check wich males and females are attracted to eachother, you can tell since they will actually spend time together by cuddling up in the same area.

Only guarantee you have is that males call and females lay eggs,
with paying close attention to you;re animals it will be more and more clear what females and males are.
Most will have a certain behaviour you will start to recognize more and more as you get more experience with them.

I would say, try an unisex name on the right one, like René.  :Wink: 

Good luck with them!

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## John Clare

> Thanks John, 2 males it is


Haha!  There are no guarantees, I'm afraid.

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## bogalog

Heh, I realise that, but everyone here is more experienced than me, so I'll go with the majority!

To be honest, if they get on fine then I'm happy. I'm attached to them now, and wouldn't be happy swapping one for a female.

I'm thinking of calling them Buddha and Pest, Buddha the fatter one and Pest the active one that seems to climb up on the walls to poo :|
I realise that the spelling is wrong, but it seems to suit them  :Smile:

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## Tony

Looks like two males to me as well. Male tinctorius can usually live together peacefully, I have two male New Rivers together who have never fought, and two male Cobalts who fought once when introduced then lived together without issue.

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## JimO

I like those names.  That's an hysterical play on words.  I didn't mean to sound at all negative in my earlier posts and others are right that even the most experienced Tinc breedes out there can end up scratching their head over a specimen with a medium sized body and medium toe pads.  I bought a sexed female azureus from a very experienced azureus breeder.  But, when I put "her" in with a lone male, they did some serious MMA fighting.  On closure inspection, the toepads on the "female" were somewhat in between.  What cinched it for me is when I put him/her in with a young female, they have been getting along great ever since.  She's a few months from being ready to lay, but they are inseparable and exhibit lots of breeding behaviors.

So, there are certainly no guarantees, but even if they are both males, they can co-exist peacefully if there is enough room and sufficient plant growth or strategically placed rocks to reduce the line of sight between them when they need some alone time.

Some folks have great luck with a 2.1 trio, so you might want to keep a look out for a sexed female.  If yours are both males and they get along, the introduction of a female will cause far more excitement than conflict.

The frustrating thing about Tincs is that their voice is so quiet, you generally can't hear it unless you open the lid and stick your ear inside.

You might try this little trick.  Get a recording of a male Patricia calling and play it into the viv.  Sometimes that will get the males calling.  But, concentrate more on their throats expanding rather than listening for a sound.  If one or both call, then that would confirm that they are males.  The converse isn't true unfortunately.  If you get no calling, that doesn't help much in sexing them.  I've gotten many clutches out of my azureus breeding pair (that developed into tads), so I knew I had a pair, but I've never heard the male call and only caught a glimpse of him calling once in three years.

By the way, your frogs are beautiful.  Unless you have a burning desire to breed dart frogs, just enjoy them.  My original female stopped laying eggs about a year ago, which is why I wanted another sexed female.  So, I was able to put the new male with one of the original pair's offspring.  As soon as I put the old female back in, it was like finding a long lost friend.  They hang out together most of the time and even sleep in the same little cave.  So, even if I never get another egg out of her, I just enjoy them.

Good luck to you.

Jim


> Heh, I realise that, but everyone here is more experienced than me, so I'll go with the majority!
> 
> To be honest, if they get on fine then I'm happy. I'm attached to them now, and wouldn't be happy swapping one for a female.
> 
> I'm thinking of calling them Buddha and Pest, Buddha the fatter one and Pest the active one that seems to climb up on the walls to poo :|
> I realise that the spelling is wrong, but it seems to suit them

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## Tony

> even the most experienced Tinc breedes out there can end up scratching their head over a specimen with a medium sized body and medium toe pads.


Like this guy? I thought for sure he was a she until I introduced my other male, he had everyone on DartFrogz stumped too.

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## JimO

Tony - that's an easy one.  It's a shemale - a recently discovered D. tinctorius morph referred to as the self ambulatory articulated hermaphroditic dying poisn dart frog.

Sorry, it's late and I can sleep or stop typing because of the painkillers I'm on after hernia surgery yesterday.  So, I cannot be blamed for anything I say, unless it's a really bad pun.

You know, two atoms wake up after a night on the town and one says to the other, "I think I've lost a couple of electrons.  His friend asks, "Are you sure?" and he responds "Yes, I'm positive".  His friend dismisses it and says, "I think you're just over-reacting.

HA - LMAO

I have a million of them and they never get old.  Sorry for the tangent off the thread topic.

As I said before, unless you (the OP) have a burning desire to breed some frogs, just enjoy them, keep an eye on them to make sure one doesn't start dropping weight, and look for a female at your leisure.

Oh, and one more thing as a precaution, I wouldn't leave any pools of water deep enough to cover the nostrils if one of there heads was resting on the bottom.  As a temporary fix you could add pebbles to any pools of water so that you don't have to lower the water level.  If a serious conflict erupts, one of the frogs could drown the other by holding its head under water.  It's more common than people think.

I better try to get some sleep.

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## bogalog

I didn't think you were overly pessimistic jimo, I appreciate all the help I get here. 

I don't have a pool in the tank, so drowning is not an issue, and there is a fair amount of hiding places in the tank out of view if one another. 

I will just keep an eye on them, they have lived together since they were tads, so fingers crossed they won't fight. 

Thanks for all the advice!  :Frog Smile: 

Edit: I have tried playing some tinc calling, but it didn't stimulate any calling of their own unfortunately

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## bogalog

Hi all, just wanted to say thanks for your help!

I caught the fatter frog (Buddha) calling today - though i didnt manage to get a video. Almost certain I have 2 males!

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## wesleybrouwer

Haha, so he is  :Big Grin: 
Little chubby for his sex, but well  :Big Grin: 

As already said before you can introduce a female with them when you like to breed them.
Better 2 males then 2 females in a tank.
Just as people, males go much better together then 2 females,
that's just a matter of time before they start a fight  :Wink:

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