# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  Need some help....Impaction

## DeeDub

My little ornate has an impaction.  His left side is bigger than his right and there are two distinguishable hard spots that I can palpate.

Please Help.

Heading to the store for pedialite right now.  I dont know what to do other than a warm soak with Pedialite.

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## Maharg

How warm is your water for the warm bath?

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## DeeDub

Just got back, didnt make it yet was hoping there was a reply when I got returned home.

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## DeeDub

Soaking in the second warm bath.  Passed a little fecal matter, the lump has moved to the right side as you can see

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## DeeDub

BTW, this is Rhino. Hope s/he makes it. You can see the two lumps on the left side. Big one on the right side. Three in all. All of them are pretty firm.

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## MatthewM1

You can also try a warm soaks with a couple drops of honey in it

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## DeeDub

Bump...no change this morning. He's soaking in His water dish.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Deedub you need to make a bath of luke warm de-chlorinated water with 4 drops of honey dissolved in the water. Make sure the bath is no deeper than up to his chin. Pour some of the water over his back and onto his vent. When the water cools have another warm bath ready that is the same depth, but only dechlorinated water no honey in this bath. Soak again until the water cools. Gently massage the right side where the bulge is in small circles from the shoulder where it begins and move back to his hip. Do this until he goes.

This can take a couple days, but most will go right after the baths. When the second bath is cool make sure you put warm de-chlorinated water in his water dish and place him back into his home in the water dish and leave him be.

Keep me posted.

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## Pluke

Grif is always my go to guy with impactions concerns, it's always just a huge turd though, haha. I just wanted to add that the Lukewarm water temperate that I use is roughly 85-90 degrees. I do that temp with honey and my frogs will usually go, if they don't go during the first bath, they'll almost ALWAYS go during the second non-honey soak. This is a very good technique and it WORKS. 

Good luck I hope your frog passes that log, I'm sure it's just a big poop she's been holding. I've seen some MASSIVE pacman poops.

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## DeeDub

LOL, I have never been so excited to see something ****.  She ate a big dubia from tongs. Thats when I noticed the lumps on the left side.  The big one on the right is probably the roach.

How many times per day should I soak?

Thanks for your help.

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## Pluke

The bump on it's left side is food. Especially if it ate a big dubia you'll definitely feel a lump on the left side. It's right side is poop. I'd just do the honey soak once every other day, you could probably do it every day but I wouldn't, that's just me. You can do a normal lukewarm water soak every day. Once the frog poops though you don't have to worry about soaking. 

I give my frogs a normal non-honey lukewarm water soak every 2 weeks if I don't see them poop, just because I have one frog that only poops if I give him a bath. He always goes too.

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## DeeDub

Ok, off to bathe her in honey....lol

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## DeeDub

Just got done with the first soak.  She passed a little bit of turd, but not really worth mentioning.  She is trying though.  I think she will pass it with this second soak.  I just put the warm water in her dish and put her back in her cage. Ill repeat tonight.

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## ejh805

> Just got done with the first soak.  She passed a little bit of turd, but not really worth mentioning.  She is trying though.  I think she will pass it with this second soak.  I just put the warm water in her dish and put her back in her cage. Ill repeat tonight.


Best of luck!
Don't forget to try the massage technique that Grif posted. I've done something similar before, and within a minute or so my frog was passing something massive.

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## Maharg

I asked how warm the water was because from experience I have found this critical. I went into further detail in another post, I will try to link it later but data on my phone is running low. 
Somewhat briefly, I believe frogs naturally regulate their bowels in nature by hopping into warm puddles since obviously nobody is there to do it for them. small puddles they would jump into in nature (small cause they could drown in large bodies of water) move in temperature almost exactly on time with the air temperature. As we all know water equalizes to the same temperature as air. Warm tropical days are easily 90+ degrees and so is the water. I spent two weeks in Costa Rica last year and every day was above 100. A 95 degree bath isn't dangerous and it's not even all that much warmer than a swimming pool. Bare in mind most tanks are kept at 80 to 85 degrees during the day anyway. 
With my frogs a "lukewarm" 85 degree bath has proved pointless. I make the water quite warm and they always poop almost instantly. They can easily hop out if they choose, but they always end up staying in for hours. Til the water drops back down to normal tank temperature. 
Don't be afraid to make a 95 degree bath. It's always proved successful for me.

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## DeeDub

Thanks. I started Luke warm and pretty shallow. I slowly added warmer water (100ish) until the waterline was mid body. I'm gu shy with hot water and frogs.  When I was a kid I was cleaning a water dish and stuck a little grass frog in the sink where the water was running. Where it was just warm when I felt it, taking the frog from its 75-80 degree water straight into the warmer water shocked his system so bad that he died a few minutes later (I know, the water was chlorinated, shouldn't put the frog in the sink...etc, gimme a break, I was 10 or 11)

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I asked how warm the water was because from experience I have found this critical. I went into further detail in another post, I will try to link it later but data on my phone is running low. 
> Somewhat briefly, I believe frogs naturally regulate their bowels in nature by hopping into warm puddles since obviously nobody is there to do it for them. small puddles they would jump into in nature (small cause they could drown in large bodies of water) move in temperature almost exactly on time with the air temperature. As we all know water equalizes to the same temperature as air. Warm tropical days are easily 90+ degrees and so is the water. I spent two weeks in Costa Rica last year and every day was above 100. A 95 degree bath isn't dangerous and it's not even all that much warmer than a swimming pool. Bare in mind most tanks are kept at 80 to 85 degrees during the day anyway.
> With my frogs a "lukewarm" 85 degree bath has proved pointless. I make the water quite warm and they always poop almost instantly. They can easily hop out if they choose, but they always end up staying in for hours. Til the water drops back down to normal tank temperature. 
> Don't be afraid to make a 95 degree bath. It's always proved successful for me.


Recommended temp is 78° to 80° and yes a sudden rise in their body temp is very bad for them. Their body doesnt work
 instantly in the wild and puddle temp is most likely near 80° not 100° or even 90°. A gradule temp change is what is best which is partially the reason for two soaks involved in the first place. Do not expose the frog to those high water temps. What would posses you to place the frog in 100° water? Are you trying to cause it to go into shock? Water is ressistant to heat and natural water sources even in the sun seldom reach high temps such as 85° to 90 otherwise they would be near useless for animals to cool off in.

Luke warm or tepid water is only around 75° to 78°. It should feel warm to the touch and cool slightly. Use better judgement before you harm the frog. They never seek high temps like that so wouldnt be exposed to any water source that is that warm.

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## Maharg

Temperature is measured in the shade. Also, if you are keeping your tank at 80 to 85 as most do, replacing the water with 78 degree water is giving them a relatively cold bath.

Also, frogs dig to cool off. Water for hydration and performing bowel movements.

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## Maharg

I dont want to go into a heated debate here again but ill also add that a frog living in a 85 degree tank placed in 90 degree or even 95 degree water is only small deferential. Its a couple degrees celcius. Its nothing. In fact, any time you place a frog in a water dish without specifically measuring the temp first you are probably subjecting it to a 10 degree change in farrenheit anyway. Thats why we canadians use celcius lol. Farrenheit seems so much more drastic than it really is.

Edit: And just to clarify, I in no way condone reckless frog care. My decisions are based on sound logic. I've put this logic into practice before many many times with no I'll effects. And as I said I can guarantee frogs encounter water temperatures in excess of 90 degrees on a daily basis in the wild. It's the nature of the tropics. I've been in Thailand where the temperature has been at high as 117 degrees. It happens. If a frog is uncomfortable, it will jump out. That being said, I obviously don't recommend warm baths nearly that high. But 90 is safe.

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## Herpguy

Unless your frog somehow swallowed a large chunk of gravel, whatever it is WILL pass.  These frogs have amazing digestive systems.  Even small gravel can pass easily, though it's still not good.  I wouldn't worry at all as long as the frog is at the proper temperature and has access to water.
As far as the bulge, if you look at frog anatomy you will see that the stomach is on the righ.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I dont want to go into a heated debate here again but ill also add that a frog living in a 85 degree tank placed in 90 degree or even 95 degree water is only small deferential. Its a couple degrees celcius. Its nothing. In fact, any time you place a frog in a water dish without specifically measuring the temp first you are probably subjecting it to a 10 degree change in farrenheit anyway. Thats why we canadians use celcius lol. Farrenheit seems so much more drastic than it really is.
> 
> Edit: And just to clarify, I in no way condone reckless frog care. My decisions are based on sound logic. I've put this logic into practice before many many times with no I'll effects. And as I said I can guarantee frogs encounter water temperatures in excess of 90 degrees on a daily basis in the wild. It's the nature of the tropics. I've been in Thailand where the temperature has been at high as 117 degrees. It happens. If a frog is uncomfortable, it will jump out. That being said, I obviously don't recommend warm baths nearly that high. But 90 is safe.


There is no argument. These frogs burrow to escape heat. Therefore the temp that their body is exposed to is less than 80° to 85°. Nowhere near 90°. They do not seek water for warmth and thus a sudden exposure to high temp water can shock the frog and possibly cause death. 100° water is obsurd and if i were you would never suggest that its acceptable for another member to do so. 

They thermoregulate by burrowing and cooling off in water. Check the water temp within your enclosure. Even to the touch it is cool. That is with 80° to 85°air temps. Even the substrate will be in the 70°s. They NEVER enter 90° to 100° water. Not even 85° water because not only does the water not reach these temps it may even be much less due to the fact that these frogs are nocturnal and thus come out when the heat of the day has passed. This treatment is to be followed as i have advised. There is absolutely no need for such high water temps even for tropical frogs.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Unless your frog somehow swallowed a large chunk of gravel, whatever it is WILL pass.  These frogs have amazing digestive systems.  Even small gravel can pass easily, though it's still not good.  I wouldn't worry at all as long as the frog is at the proper temperature and has access to water.
> As far as the bulge, if you look at frog anatomy you will see that the stomach is on the righ.



This is true. The stomach is on the right, but when they are due for a bowel movement the right side will bulge where the instestine is near the righy side of the belly

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## Maharg

> There is no argument. These frogs burrow to escape heat. Therefore the temp that their body is exposed to is less than 80° to 85°. Nowhere near 90°. They do not seek water for warmth and thus a sudden exposure to high temp water can shock the frog and possibly cause death. 100° water is obsurd and if i were you would never suggest that its acceptable for another member to do so. 
> 
> They thermoregulate by burrowing and cooling off in water. Check the water temp within your enclosure. Even to the touch it is cool. That is with 80° to 85°air temps. Even the substrate will be in the 70°s. They NEVER enter 90° to 100° water. Not even 85° water because not only does the water not reach these temps it may even be much less due to the fact that these frogs are nocturnal and thus come out when the heat of the day has passed. This treatment is to be followed as i have advised. There is absolutely no need for such high water temps even for tropical frogs.


Well how about this. Someone will berate and condescend me for feeding my toad a crayfish or giving my frogs warm baths. Someone will do the same to mike, a proven breeder for keeping his pixies on woodchips. I'll so the same to someone who recommends distilled water for their frogs. But all our frogs are still alive and thriving. 
So maybe our frogs are just laughing at us while they enjoy a life of ultra luxury that we wouldn't even treat ourselves to because we act like they are 100 times more sensitive then humans when meanwhile they live in conditions 100 times harsher than us.

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## DVirginiana

While your frog is in the bath, you can gently touch the area just above the vent and push up/forward (GENTLY!).  The frog will probably try to resist moving forward, and the muscle movements are very similar to those they use when going to the bathroom.  A lot of times this will get them started.  I've had this work with Trevor multiple times when I give her a preventative bath (she has a serious tendency to get impacted, so I give her unmedicated warm soaks about once a week if I feel lumps to keep things from reaching a crisis point).  Don't know how much it'll help with more severe impaction, but it won't hurt anything.

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## DVirginiana

> So maybe out frogs are just laughing at us while they enjoy a life of ultra luxury that we wouldn't even treat ourselves to because we act like they are 100 times more sensitive then humans when meanwhile they live in conditions 100 times harsher than us.


They also have hundreds and hundreds of babies every year because so many of them will die  :P

Just because some people haven't had a problem with something doesn't mean it's a great idea for everyone.  Especially if you are talking to someone who doesn't necessarily have a lot of experience with reptiles/amphibians.  A first-time owner wouldn't know all the little things to avoid potential problems and probably wouldn't catch an issue until it's too late.  A long-term breeder would.  There's a reason most people don't recommend feeding crayfish or putting 100 degree water on your frog: They might live through it, but there's also a chance it could harm them.  Why take a risk when just a little more time or effort could avoid it?

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## DeeDub

Thanks for all the replies...lol.

I estimated 100 degrees based on my body temp being roughly 98ish.  It felt warm to me so I figured 100 ish....I see the flaw, my hands might be cooler than 98. Either way, the "100" degree water I used was slowly mixed with cooler water the frog was soaking in for the exact reason you and I stated. I see where your concern lies and you are right, shouldn't shock their system. I made sure I didn't. She passed a little more poo in her water dish while I was gone. I'll honey soak her again in a couple hours.  I did the massage, but didn't dare push too hard and I'm pretty sure the big bump on the right side is the roach. It doesn't feel rounded like the ones on the left.

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## DVirginiana

> Thanks for all the replies...lol.
> 
> I estimated 100 degrees based on my body temp being roughly 98ish.  It felt warm to me so I figured 100 ish....I see the flaw, my hands might be cooler than 98. Either way, the "100" degree water I used was slowly mixed with cooler water the frog was soaking in for the exact reason you and I stated. I see where your concern lies and you are right, shouldn't shock their system. I made sure I didn't. She passed a little more poo in her water dish while I was gone. I'll honey soak her again in a couple hours.  I did the massage, but didn't dare push too hard and I'm pretty sure the big bump on the right side is the roach. It doesn't feel rounded like the ones on the left.


Sometimes it takes them awhile to fully pass a bad impaction.  Even afterward, they can still act a little off for a few days depending on how bad it was.

I was actually wondering how you got 100 degree water unless you boiled it or used the microwave lol.  I think there is a rule about how often you can do honey soaks?  Grif will probably be able to tell you more about that.  No limit that I'm aware of with the pedialyte though.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Well how about this. Someone will berate and condescend me for feeding my toad a crayfish or giving my frogs warm baths. Someone will do the same to mike, a proven breeder for keeping his pixies on woodchips. I'll so the same to someone who recommends distilled water for their frogs. But all our frogs are still alive and thriving. 
> So maybe our frogs are just laughing at us while they enjoy a life of ultra luxury that we wouldn't even treat ourselves to because we act like they are 100 times more sensitive then humans when meanwhile they live in conditions 100 times harsher than us.


Oh i have no doubt that they're living the life of luxury. I spoil mine completely. They're all fat and never have to hunt for their food, but could if necessary. Anyway back to the bath right  :Smile:

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Thanks for all the replies...lol.
> 
> I estimated 100 degrees based on my body temp being roughly 98ish.  It felt warm to me so I figured 100 ish....I see the flaw, my hands might be cooler than 98. Either way, the "100" degree water I used was slowly mixed with cooler water the frog was soaking in for the exact reason you and I stated. I see where your concern lies and you are right, shouldn't shock their system. I made sure I didn't. She passed a little more poo in her water dish while I was gone. I'll honey soak her again in a couple hours.  I did the massage, but didn't dare push too hard and I'm pretty sure the big bump on the right side is the roach. It doesn't feel rounded like the ones on the left.


There is some room for error on the feeling with your hand. If it feels warm then just cool it to the point of barely warm.

You can do the honey bath two days in a row. I've never seen any ill effects from even 3 baths this way so you can repeat it up to three times if necessary.

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## Maharg

> Sometimes it takes them awhile to fully pass a bad impaction.  Even afterward, they can still act a little off for a few days depending on how bad it was.
> 
> I was actually wondering how you got 100 degree water unless you boiled it or used the microwave lol.  I think there is a rule about how often you can do honey soaks?  Grif will probably be able to tell you more about that.  No limit that I'm aware of with the pedialyte though.


We are talking fahrenheit lol. If I was talking celsius id be one sick puppy. Or really a fan of frog legs. Lol.

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## Pluke

DeeDub, not sure if you have one.. but I use a temp gun to test the temperature of my water. Just shoot the surface of the water and it'll give you a pretty good idea.

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## Maharg

> DeeDub, not sure if you have one.. but I use a temp gun to test the temperature of my water. Just shoot the surface of the water and it'll give you a pretty good idea.


That's exactly what I use. The laser gun. Or light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation gun for all the nerds out there. 
Anyways, not to beat a dead horse but that's another reason I feel 90 degree water is safe. I used to keep the water dish below the heat lamp like many people recommend for humidity. (I don't any more) The water was frequently in the 90 range and never posed a problem.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> That's exactly what I use. The laser gun. Or light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation gun for all the nerds out there. 
> Anyways, not to beat a dead horse but that's another reason I feel 90 degree water is safe. I used to keep the water dish below the heat lamp like many people recommend for humidity. (I don't any more) The water was frequently in the 90 range and never posed a problem.


You're actually not supposed to place the water dish directly under the light other wise it defeats the purpose of the water dish. Its used incase they need to cool off and hydrate, but most use it as a toilet. If you place the dish under the light then have multiple dishes of water so that there is at least one for the frog to use as a extra cooling source. 

This also goes for the UTH.

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## Maharg

Yes I stopped doing that almost immediately. Every time I was testing it with the gun it was in the 90s range which I knew was much to hot for constant water temperature.

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## DeeDub

> DeeDub, not sure if you have one.. but I use a temp gun to test the temperature of my water. Just shoot the surface of the water and it'll give you a pretty good idea.




I do have one. Great idea, im dumber than **** sometimes...lol.  So 80ish for the temps for soaking?

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## Pluke

Haha, it happens to the best of us. The day I got that gun I was using it on everything... well, not EVERYTHING.. but yah. I've got my use out of it. 

Apparently everyone has varied opinions about temperatures. I personally go for about 85. Grif recommends 78. I try to keep my tubs at 80ish so I don't really think a 5 degree temp difference will be too much of a shock and the little bit of extra heat I think works as a stimulant itself. As I stated before, I have a frog that I think PREFERS when I bath him and he goes like clockwork every 2 weeks in a 80-85 degree bath. He has never pooped out of the water.. he's a strange little fella.

Lol! He has you trained.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I do have one. Great idea, im dumber than **** sometimes...lol.  So 80ish for the temps for soaking?


Yes, 78° is exact, but 80° is fine.

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## Maharg

Since we've gone this far we might as well clear this up. I still can't comprehend how 78 degrees or even 80 can be considered a warm bath. What temperature do you keep your tank? If it's at 80, would you not consider a warm bath 5 to 10 degrees warmer? Otherwise, what's the point on calling it a warm bath? Really, I'm not trying to stir the pot here. I'm genuinely curious.

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## Pluke

You know I kind of agree with you Maharg, but I think it's all a matter of being careful. I try to keep all my frogs at 80ish in their enclosures (tub rack). The ambient air for them is about 78 at all times and they don't have anywhere to burrow since they're on filter so that's the temperature they stay at. I bath them in 85, which is only 5 degrees warmer, but it's a sudden warmth not a gradual build up. Now... for people who use substrate for them to burrow, you may be pulling a frog out of substrate that's 70 degrees in a tank thats air is 80, throw them into a 15-20 degree different water may shock them. This is just how I think of it.. I haven't had any ill effect and I am happy with the results. 

Grif is the first one to tell me to use lukewarm water but I didn't get a exact temp from him at first, so I assumed 85ish. I tried it and it worked. I've been using that temp since, I didn't find out what he considered lukewarm until months after.. I just haven't changed my ways because it's worked and I've had no hinderance to my frogs.

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## Maharg

I certainly don't disagree that shocking a frog is bad for their health. Potentially fatal. Recommending water at 90 is under the assumption that people keep their tank between 80 and 85. So it's really not that big of a jump. And like pluke said, and I mentioned earlier lukewarm is highly debatable. It depends on peoples judgment and even hand sensitivity. Baring in mind 99% of people won't test the temperature of the water before a bath, most people are probably using 90 degree water and not even knowing it.

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## Pluke

The first time I used a lukewarm soak, I didn't have the heat gun, I went took the heat test with my finger and guessed. I had no idea what the actual temp was, I just new it wasn't warmer than me and that's what I perceived as lukewarm, lol. When I got the heat gun, I did my normal way of heating up water then shot the water to find it was 85 degrees.

I also wanted to add that if I was here asking for advice on something, I would definitely take Grif's advice over mine. He's been caring for them a heck of a lot longer than I have, lol.  :Frog Smile:

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## DeeDub

Update:  I put her in 120 degree water and she crapped alot....I mean it looks like she crapped her guts out, literally......I pushed them back in with a pencil eraser, and I think she is fine.  She's not moving at all and has her eyes closed.  I think she's really relaxed....Thanks for all the great advice folks.  I'm glad she'll be alright.

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## Pluke

Yeah... that's a little disturbing. No one said to put her in 120 degree water so I'm not sure if you're serious. If you did and thats what happened, hopefully she will be alright.

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## DVirginiana

I'm immune to sarcasm... That was sarcasm, right?

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## DeeDub

ok, sorry.  Couldn't help myself.....

Anyway,  here's the real update (The sad thing is I've seen people post stuff almost as bad as that before).

I've got her soaking now.  She is trying like the dickens to shake something loose, but no luck thus far.  It seems like the hanger on is just inside the poopshoot.  I have been pouring the water on her back and it seems to stimulate pushing.  As soon as I put her in the bath she started pushing.

I used the temp gun and the water feels cold to the touch, but is 83 degrees F.  I had to have had it way hotter earlier....my bad but she seems ok.  Still wants to eat by the way.  When I came in, she turned in her water dish towards me when the door opened.  She does this when she is hungry usually.  

Her water in her enclosure is 83 degrees as well.  I will be moving it out from under the black light as she never gets into her water on her own in her cage.  I'll see if that changes.  I thought it intuitive that if she wanted to ****, she would go to the warm water basking spot.  That's what my pyxies do, but thier water feature is large and the water is always cool (82 degrees...just found out..lol).

Tried the rubbing and massaging.  Don't really know what someone meant when they said to push gently above the vent.  Seems like thats her tailbone (some kind of bone).  Her poopshoot is ever so slightly open.  As I've been typing this I think the turd has moved toward the opening a little.  

Stand by for further reports of expected fecal terrorism.

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## Pluke

Haha, alright. I knew deep down inside that you were screwing with us, I swear! It wouldn't surprise me though.. I've seen people say some strange things, even after advice given. I never heard of massaging the vent, I've heard of running water over it with a cup or some kind of baster.. lol, think of it as basting a turkey. I've massaged the lumps on the right side of the frog though, very gently. I had a frog that held in a turd for over three weeks and I needed her to go, this was just recently. I did what Grif said and rubbed her side gently while she soaked and when I put her in the non-honey she pushed out something bigger than a cat turd.

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## DVirginiana

It's more just nudging that area to get them to resist moving forward.  It causes the same muscle movements they use when they poop.  If she's already trying to go, there's probably no point in that.  Sometimes Trevor just decides she's going to hang out in the bath and never do anything, and if I do that it's like she suddenly remembers she needs to go  :P

Any idea what caused the impaction?

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## Sherry

Ok, I know this is gross, and I may be sick in the head, but can you post a pic of the turd when she goes? I bet it is HUGE!

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## DeeDub

> Any idea what caused the impaction?


No Idea.  I have had her about three weeks to a month I think.  After the first time I got her to feed, I noticed the odd lopsidedness to her body and just figured it was because she just ate.

I have her on plain old eco earth and nothing in her cage except a water dish and an analog thermometer (I know they usually suck, but this one works good.  I checked it with my digital probe).  

If anything I've been feeding her too much.  I don't think she ate roaches before I got her.  I have been giving her at least one a day (she usually will eat two 1 inchers), as well as a night crawler.  I use calcium and vitamin supplements (Miner-all, Repashy plus) every other feeding.

I just put her in the second bath w/o honey and she's not doing anything.  I tried the push on her b-hole and you are 100% right.  It's the exact same movement as when she's pushing.  Good work and thanks!!!!  She's not going to go though.  She thinks I'm going to feed her.  She is tracking me as I move around the room...lol.  Probably ought to hold off though you guys think?

Thanks again for all the advice.

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## DeeDub

> Ok, I know this is gross, and I may be sick in the head, but can you post a pic of the turd when she goes? I bet it is HUGE!


If it happens when I'm watching you better expect some close up, explicit, wide angle, narrow angle, inside shots, scratch and sniffs, video, 3D video,  you name it type pictures!!!!  haha.  Ya, I am going to need to document this bad boy.  Hopefully she just ****s it out and is ok though.  I am real worried still about her.  Shes a bad *** frog and has alot of character.  I'm going to take her to the vet if she shows any signs of septisemia (probably spelled wrong) or unhealthyness.  She is still a wiley little bugger.  She seems really hungry, tries to bite me when I massage her, jumps away when I go to get her out etc.

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## Sherry

L M A O!!! Scratch n sniff

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## DeeDub

Alright, last update tonight.  No poo yet.  Her bulge on the right has gotten a little smaller.  The lumps on the left have moved a little closer to the vent.
Night folks.

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## DeeDub

> L M A O!!! Scratch n sniff



haha....yep

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## Sherry

Go get some sleep and give me a poop update tomorrow :Biggrin:

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## DVirginiana

If she's getting annoyed at you that's a good sign.  Especially in a fairly sedentary animal like a Pac.

After she goes, try feeding just nightcrawlers for a little while.  They digest better than any other prey, and are good for frogs prone to impaction.  Do you tong-feed?  When mine was still hunting her own roaches, she would end up missing and eating a LOT of cocofiber.  It ended up with her being very impacted.  Check the poo and see what the cocofiber-to-roach ratio looks like.  That might be your problem.

It might be good to continue doing unmedicated soaks daily for a little while after she passes the impaction.  If it has gotten to a point that they are starting to go septic from the backup, this will keep them urinating and passing the toxins.  Watch for bloating as that's a sign of toxins building up in the system.

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## DeeDub

Alright, just got home from work and Rhino seems a little more symmetrical today. I'm gonna get a warm bath ready and search through her substrate while she's soaking to see if she did the deed.

She didn't stay in the water since I moved it out from under the light.

She does tong feed.  She eats earth worms in her water dish.

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## DeeDub

Ta Dahhh!!
Thanks people!  She laid this egg last night after I put her back in her dish.

Thanks again.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Congratulation!!! You have a frog turd. I'd pass cigars around, but something tells me that this occation doesn't call for that kind of celebration  :Big Grin: .

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## Sherry

Woohoo! That's a good one!  :Boogie:

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## Pluke

> Ta Dahhh!!
> Thanks people!  She laid this egg last night after I put her back in her dish.


So are you going to try and hatch it or what?

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## trkyhntr

looks like he punched out a Grumpy

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## DeeDub

All I know is in the middle of the night I heard "Whooop....Whooop {siren sound}...We've reached DEFCON 5, NEGOTIATIONS HAVE BEGUN, SHES ABOUT TO RELEASE A CHOCOLATE HOSTAGE"....  Then I woke up and found that little beauty.

She actually pushed out two about that size.

Minimal coco fiber in it, I think maybe I over fed on the roaches.  I'm going to change to 1 earth worm a day, and a roach with worm every third.  Pinky once a month.

FYI, I could see the lumps move down the left side of the frog (left side from frogs perspective) into the pelvis and back to the vent. This morning I couldn't see the large bulge (roach like I thought) on the right.  So the last tract of intestine before the vent is on the left side of this frog.

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## Hoppity100

What did he eat and how much? Can you give him fiber powder mixed with drop of water in eye dropper? Also let him soak in warm water. I hope he is ok. That reminds me, I need to buy an eye dropper, have small syringe minus needle. Eye dropper would be for emergencies. Yeah, I'd try this for my frog. OOne reason why I don't give mine too large a cricket.

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## Hoppity100

I don't think feeding roaches is obviously a good idea since they must have a shell. Sprinkle fiber powder on their food, don't feed roaches. Then frog would not have to suffer with ANY impaction or bowel obstruction. I don't see good judgement here. Can't help but get my 2 cents worth about something that could have been prevented.

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## Hoppity100

I have the same frogs and mine adapted to tank temp fine. I would NEVER make their temp over 80 degrees. Are you trying to cook them? Mine arrived at the store in lower temp, they have the ability to adapt. Store does not keep them at 80 degrees either.

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## Hoppity100

I feel bad for your frog, he is suffering from eating a roach. Roaches with any shell are TOO BIG for getting thru intestines. Why can't anyone figure this out?

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## Hoppity100

Gee, pushing and adding frog more pain does not sound good either. Stop feeding roaches...switch to worms. Then frog won't have to have a near death painful experience! AKA bowel obstruction

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> All I know is in the middle of the night I heard "Whooop....Whooop {siren sound}...We've reached DEFCON 5, NEGOTIATIONS HAVE BEGUN, SHES ABOUT TO RELEASE A CHOCOLATE HOSTAGE"....  Then I woke up and found that little beauty.
> 
> She actually pushed out two about that size.
> 
> Minimal coco fiber in it, I think maybe I over fed on the roaches.  I'm going to change to 1 earth worm a day, and a roach with worm every third.  Pinky once a month.
> 
> FYI, I could see the lumps move down the left side of the frog (left side from frogs perspective) into the pelvis and back to the vent. This morning I couldn't see the large bulge (roach like I thought) on the right.  So the last tract of intestine before the vent is on the left side of this frog.


Yep, it's a loop. Swings out past the stomach on the right and then loops to their left. You will always notice though that when they need to have a bowel movement the feces will begin on the right side.  :Smile:   You can actually feel it move when you massage the lump on the right side and then it will move to the left just before the release it. Its actually kind of cool how you can see their intestines at work.

FYI, Deedub if you're feeding adult roaches to the frog then that is why he became impacted. They take a while to digest as adults because their exoskeleton is fully developed. Anytime I've fed adult roaches to mine they took alot longer to have a bowel movement.

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## Hoppity100

How big is the roach? How big are the frog's intestines? That's what I thought...roach is bigger. Good grief....

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> Gee, pushing and adding frog more pain does not sound good either. Stop feeding roaches...switch to worms. Then frog won't have to have a near death painful experience! AKA bowel obstruction


Lol! Hoppity, You can't place fiber powder on their food, but Fluker's Repta-Aid(Repta-Boost) for dehydrated and malnourished reptiles and amphibians can be used to assist in keeping the frog regular with it's bowel movements. This emergency supplement contains alot of fiber and thus can provide what is needed to help the frog, but like all supplements can be overdosed on so it is best to only use it occasionally or only in an emergency.

There is no need to keep posting negative comments. Deedub has done nothing wrong and is not causing his frog pain. When they are impacted to the point in which it will cause death the frog will swell up before the intestines burst. It's time to leave it be and he has already stated that he is going to switch to worms.

Let it be. Thank you.

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## Pluke

I thought it was OK to feed dubias? That big brown I got back LOVES them.. finally, I have a frog that will chow them down without question. Of course, she hasn't ate any adult roaches, but the big ones before adult stage. Should I refrain? She only gets like 1 or 2 a feeding with a couple big nightcrawlers and pacman food.. this girl will eat as much as I give her, it's nice not having a picky eater for once, lol.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I thought it was OK to feed dubias? That big brown I got back LOVES them.. finally, I have a frog that will chow them down without question. Of course, she hasn't ate any adult roaches, but the big ones before adult stage. Should I refrain? She only gets like 1 or 2 a feeding with a couple big nightcrawlers and pacman food.. this girl will eat as much as I give her, it's nice not having a picky eater for once, lol.


Its ok, but sometimes the adult roaches kind of constipate the frog.

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## Hoppity100

Please don't feed roaches. Think of the size of the frog's intestines. What are the digestive enzymes a frog has?

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## Hoppity100

You don't see my point:  why wait until the frog has swelled up and is in pain in the first place? It does not make sense to me to feed roaches, an impaction from insects could be prevented. I think of my frogs alot and will never give them roaches. If I am negative it is because this could have been prevented, same as a frog death. I don't think its nice to cause a frog to be impacted then notice it later after frog has been hurting. I know impactions then bowel obstruction do not feel good. I know there is not a small enough NG tube out there or a vet to do surgery. I am thankful he switched to worms, mine basically get worms with small crickets as an occasional treat. I even wonder about those! Thanks for writing.

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## DVirginiana

> You don't see my point:  why wait until the frog has swelled up and is in pain in the first place? It does not make sense to me to feed roaches, an impaction from insects could be prevented. I think of my frogs alot and will never give them roaches. If I am negative it is because this could have been prevented, same as a frog death. I don't think its nice to cause a frog to be impacted then notice it later after frog has been hurting. I know impactions then bowel obstruction do not feel good. I know there is not a small enough NG tube out there or a vet to do surgery. I am thankful he switched to worms, mine basically get worms with small crickets as an occasional treat. I even wonder about those! Thanks for writing.


Chill out.  This isn't a case of anyone being stupid or mistreating their pet.  Dubia roaches are some of the most common feeders people use for pacs.  Some frogs are just more sensitive to what is in their diet than others, with nightcrawlers being the best option for frogs prone to impaction.  DeeDub has been pretty much going by the book; his frog just had a problem.  Most of them face impaction at some point, and it's not necessarily anything the owner did.  It's just a very common problem in pacs.  




> I have the same frogs and mine adapted to tank temp fine. I would NEVER make their temp over 80 degrees. Are you trying to cook them? Mine arrived at the store in lower temp, they have the ability to adapt. Store does not keep them at 80 degrees either.


80-85 degrees is ideal for daytime temps.  Read the forum caresheet.  Petstores consistently under-heat and under-mist their tropical reptiles.




> Please don't feed roaches. Think of the size of the frog's intestines. What are the digestive enzymes a frog has?


It's not the size of the frog's intestines, it's the chitin content of the prey.  Chitin does not digest. Think about it; when was the last time your frog passed an entire cricket?  You typically see the chitinous parts of prey broken up in the poo.  If a frog gets too much of this, it doesn't matter if it is from a large roach or several small roaches at once, that is what causes the problem.  If it fits in the space between the eyes, that's a good rule of thumb for appropriately sized prey.

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Sunshine

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## Hoppity100

Then why feed them something that contains chitin? I'm sticking with worms, no roaches here. I'm trying to help any frog who has to go thru needless impaction. No, my frogs got small young crickets. Does this particular roach have a shell? How big is it? If wider than space between frog eyes and with shell, I view it as not a good idea regardless of who owns the frog. If impaction is that common and they're that sensitive, it would be better to feed them something else. Or, gee, remove shell from roach. This would be like me swallowing a whole ear of corn, with the husk. I'd get impacted then have a bowel obstruction, then die. Can't imagine the pain.  No one can determine which frog is sensitive, that's an easy answer to excuse feeding a roach. Sorry, but I don't get the roach idea at all. Thanks for writing though.

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## Pluke

Roaches don't have shells and have very little chitin.. impaction is rarely caused by them if ever. I have never heard of someones animal getting impacted from one. They're a huge staple in a ton of animals diets, frogs included, People use them because they're much healthier than crickets and a lot easier to breed/raise, making them cheaper than worms. Grif said an adult "can constipate" a frog, not impact it. Impactions are much much worse and can kill, I have never heard of a roach ever killing a frog because it couldn't digest it.

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## Hoppity100

Roaches have shells and with chitin...I may have two different stories about what roaches contain and whether they're digestible or not. Gee, does size have anything to do with it? Maybe people use them because they're cheaper to breed and house. I am concerned about crickets, my FB's only get small crickets and not all the time. The stores don't sell roaches and I would not buy them anyway. My frogs eat worms fine so I will rotate them. What is the difference between constipation and impaction to you? They're actually so similar that one is not better or easier than the other. I'd be dusting roaches with vitamin/calcium powder plus fiber powder. Either that, or dangle a piece of a prune in front of frog. Frogs eat insects when they are presented, frogs can't talk or complain (like my husband) they eat when food is offered, they don't know they have a choice if one is offered. My stray cats eat what I offer, they don't know when their next meal is. I feed them canned food with chicken or tuna. No wonder they keep coming every night. But, it seems like worms are safest for frogs/toads. Anything soft in the bug family.  Forgot to mention: constipation can and often does lead to impaction easily, impaction is painful and can lead to bowel obstruction or potential perforation. Combine this with inactivity and well, it just gets worse. Just looking out for the frog.

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## DVirginiana

> Roaches have shells and with chitin...I may have two different stories about what roaches contain and whether they're digestible or not. Gee, does size have anything to do with it? Maybe people use them because they're cheaper to breed and house. I am concerned about crickets, my FB's only get small crickets and not all the time. The stores don't sell roaches and I would not buy them anyway. My frogs eat worms fine so I will rotate them. What is the difference between constipation and impaction to you? They're actually so similar that one is not better or easier than the other. I'd be dusting roaches with vitamin/calcium powder plus fiber powder. Either that, or dangle a piece of a prune in front of frog. Frogs eat insects when they are presented, frogs can't talk or complain (like my husband) they eat when food is offered, they don't know they have a choice if one is offered. My stray cats eat what I offer, they don't know when their next meal is. I feed them canned food with chicken or tuna. No wonder they keep coming every night. But, it seems like worms are safest for frogs/toads. Anything soft in the bug family.  Forgot to mention: constipation can and often does lead to impaction easily, impaction is painful and can lead to bowel obstruction or potential perforation. Combine this with inactivity and well, it just gets worse. Just looking out for the frog.


What do you think pacs eat in the wild?  Mostly insects, occasionally small mammals or other frogs.  Rarely worms.  Their systems are evolved to eat this sort of prey.  ALL insects have a chitinous exoskeleton (not a shell), even your crickets.  With the exception of removing wings or legs, this cannot be removed.  The roaches are not cheaper or easier to house than nightcrawlers; people use them because they are safe feeders, especially if the owner is watching for problems like this one.  A frog should be watched for signs of impaction even if it's on the safest possible diet.

The difference between constipation and impaction is the same as it is in a human.  One is an inconvenience and the other is a serious medical condition.  

Saying that someone is being irresponsible by feeding roaches because they don't know how sensitive their frogs digestive system is is like saying that everyone should eat gluten free products because they don't know if they are allergic or not.  Frogs that are too sensitive to eat roaches are the abnormality; most are fine.  In fact, this frog is probably not that sensitive.  Like I said, this is a very common problem for pacs.
Your feeding style is not wrong, but that doesn't mean that everyone else's is incorrect.  There are some dietary red flags to watch out for, but dubia roaches aren't one of them.

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deranged chipmunk, Sunshine

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## Hoppity100

True, they eat insects in the wild because animals don't know when next meal is coming. Yes, constipation is slowed and difficult movement. Impaction can be life threatening if its not moved properly thru GI tract, especially made worse with type/size of food and inactivity. How does someone conclude a frog is "sensitive?" If I eat tons of popcorn, have severe LLQ pain for several days and can't move, am I just sensitive or could I have diverticulosis? or an impaction? what if I had a localized mass with infection/abscess? gangrene? perforation? You can't tell exactly how frog feels nor should frog suffer ( can tell if it dies and autopsy is done). What I am saying is, why take the risk when owners have a choice that won't even come close to causing an impaction?  Many people are sensitive to foods and they have the option of choosing different food. A frog in captivity doesn't. I'm not crazy about giving mine crickets, but they gobble the small ones which look much better than the large boney ones. Its like giving a dog rawhide made in China. This causes all kinds of havoc. Dogs don't know any better, people should though.

Gluten and allergy are not the same thing as impaction.  I am not trying to make someone feel bad, but felt an impaction and a sick or ill frog warrant talking about what it is fed. I understand your point and I hope that person can offer different food. I can't imagine certain insects getting thru a frog's GI tract safely. Some do die in the wild from eating the wrong bug. But, as pets it makes sense to me to give food that is as safe as possible. I'm speaking on behalf of frogs since they cannot speak. I've got to go to bed, otherwise I'll be up typing all night. Tomorrow I can try to read about frog digestive systems and enzymes they have. I have fiber powder in case mine look bloated or have signs of not feeling well. Hope what I wrote helped.

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## DVirginiana

Hoppity, I am well aware that gluten allergy is not the same thing as an impaction.  I was making an analogy that something that is a problem for a very small percentage of the population is no reason for the majority to avoid it out of paranoia.  If this person had been feeding mealworms or excessive amounts of pinkies, then diet would have been a major discussion point.  People on this forum (in my experience) are not the type to tiptoe around someone's feelings when tough advice can help the frogs.  The reason no one else was talking about that is because dubias HAVE NOT been documented to cause impaction.

I think popcorn is a good analogy here.  Corn is a common human staple food.  Yes, some people (my father for instance, who has had major surgery for diverticulitis and cannot eat small grains) may suffer severe infection, pain, or death from eating it.  For these people, there are specialized diets.  However, saying that it is bad parenting for someone to buy their child popcorn at a movie because of this is a bit ridiculous.  

Roaches have low risk and the reward of a safe, home-bred food supply and added variety to the diet (which nearly everyone will agree is beneficial).  If you can find any information that dubia roaches are an unsafe feeder, rather than just personal opinion, I will gladly revise my stance.  My frog has neurological issues that seem to affect her GI tract.  However, I wouldn't recommend my restrictive and paranoid care routine to others, because it would be completely unnecessary for most frogs.

It is both unfair and inaccurate to compare feeding roaches to sub-par or uncaring husbandry, especially without any hard facts to back it up.  Most of the people on this forum do not need someone to speak for their frogs, as they are already providing good care, and are willing to listen to others to keep improving it.  Again, I am NOT criticizing your care routine. Just saying, there is no call for accusing everyone who feeds roaches of giving their animals sub-par food, when you have no actual evidence to support this.

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## DeeDub

Lol...isn't that the guy wanting to feed spaghetti to his frog?  

Anyway, just feed nymphs to Rhino. She's just a little one still. The last roach I fed was about an inch. It didn't cause the impaction. I noticed the impaction as soon as she ate the roach. 

BTW, she's doing well. Fed her a couple earth worm I cut in half. She was a hungry little monster too.

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## DeeDub

Just FYI hop, roaches are one of the most nutritious inverts you can feed.  Anything you had to say lost all credibility when I read that you would give your frog a prune. Not to mentioned the spaghetti....lol

I dust with Miner-all and Vit-all.  Some of the best supplements you can give to your pets.

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## Sherry

> Just FYI hop, roaches are one of the most nutritious inverts you can feed.  Anything you had to say lost all credibility when I read that you would give your frog a prune. Not to mentioned the spaghetti....lol


LOL!!!

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## DeeDub

I like your avatar Sherry.  I was telling a gal I work with about my frogs and mentioned I hadn't named any of my Pyxies yet. I forget that frogs name but she said it, then sang the song he sings....it was really creepy. Haha.

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## Sherry

Lol! Thank you! I love those old cartoons! His name is Michigan J. Frog. And I like his song! It's funny! :Highly Amused:

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## Hoppity100

Thanks for writing with your viewpoints. No, I'm not paranoid, never was. I'm writing about giving frogs food that contributes to the impaction process. No, just because popcorn bothers people with diverticulitis or osis does not mean you withhold it from children at the theatre. You're talking about it in a different way. Corn being a staple food may be true but it can be avoided and replaced with something else. It means that if you have that condition and you know this food has the potential to cause you distress, you avoid it. I take my own snacks to the theatre. Corn is eaten and digested thru chewing kernals. But I chew my food, frogs don't, they gulp food whole. I had a dog that died from eating food whole, ended up with an obstruction, had abd exploratory, suffered post-op, had long recovery, died from complications, long story.  There is a difference between eating kernals of corn or an entire ear. Like I mentioned, what would happen to me if I ate an entire ear? With all the curves in our intestines and how they are tightly packed in our bellies, that ear of corn doesn't have a chance of passing.

I'm happy to read about these roaches, and what is the neurological problem with your frog? How did you discover it? After reading posts, I can see the people on the forum care about their pets. It shows interest and enthusiasm. The descriptions of set ups tell me what effort they put into their frogs' care. I have done the same. But, even though frogs need a variety of food, I consider things like: size of food, hard or soft, freshness, calcium dust or vitamin supplements, amount, type of insect, etc. I'm thinking these frogs would love flies except they would be difficult to house and catch.

As for husbandry: my frogs and husband have a different diet, husband chews his food and frogs don't. Husband complains and frogs don't. Husband gets softer food than frogs that eat roaches and crickets. Humans can judge before they eat, frogs can't. Frogs eat without too much thinking first, they don't debate their diet ahead of time. They eat when they see food. My stray cats do the same thing. No, I don't know why you thought I was paranoid. I guess I like things that are logical and reasonable. Roaches may have beneficial nutrients, that's not my debate, frogs do eat insects in the wild and some digest ok while others don't. If you read my collection of data/facts about my husband, you'd need to lie down. Well, you'd need a pitcher of maragritas first. Long story here, too.

I did not mean to be overly critical or demanding. I meant to bring this topic to the attention of other owners. Maybe they'd consider a different type of food or vitamin supplement. Especially the person who asked if they should keep their new frog in a cage or tank. This person should not have a frog if they have to ask that question. And, by looking at pictures of set ups: the tank or terrariums are decorated just fine, its the size of water dishes I see. I wonder if those pets have enough water, moisture, and humidity. A fogger is a great idea and anyone who goes to that trouble really cares. My tank will never need one. A terrarium should not need one if it is properly set up. A fogger I can see is especially beneficial in a household without a humidifier during winter months. Winter here can be so harsh that I already have a plan on what to do with my tank. I did not mean to elaborate so much. I tend to want to prevent accidents/hazards from happening. Oh, I have someone here who does not recognize himself in dangerous and risky situations. I have to for him. But, if you want, I am interested in knowing about your frog and his neurological problem and how you take precautions for him. Thanks for writing back with your ideas, both of our viewpoints can actually help people reading all this. Often things don't change unless someone speaks up. I tend to speak for all types of animals, it is the nature of me doing this, had pets all my life and helped other people save their pets. Have rescued pets too many times.

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## Heather

Dubia roaches are actually really nutritious and much more than crickets. Crickets also pose impaction risks. The best thing to do is to vary their diet. A balanced diet will help to keep things moving through normally. Monitoring your frog, their feces, and their belly fullness can prevent many problems. 

If your baby has a right sided belly lump, then he is full and needs to poop. It would be wise to not feed that day and wait for him to go. When we have full bellies we get bloated and crampy in which our body warns us we need to have a bowel movement. Not too many people would want to eat until resolved. Our pacs do the same, most of the time. Bad thing is, as predatory amphibians, movement of their food is when they strike so they may occasionally eat even when they're too full. I'm sure everyone already knows this, just thought I'd mention.

Roaches are fine to feed. Their "meat" to shell ratio is much higher than a cricket. Do dubias pose an impaction risk? Yep, but no more than a cricket. And if you're worried about constipation, then you can feed the freshly molted ones. They are soft and squishy  :Smile: . 

My frogs' diets are rotated with crickets, dubias, and night crawlers. I gut load both the crickets and the dubias, and of course use mvi and calcium/vita D supplements. I also do weekly to biweekly honey soaks and regular soaks every couple days. I just set them in their water bowls. They often stay in for a bit and seem to like it.

You should start a random post about what people feed their pacs just to get some comparisons  :Smile: .

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## Hoppity100

Thanks for writing with your viewpoint. Yeah, the cricket thing is bothersome when I see the large boney ones with those folded up legs that resemble sticks. That is just as bad. I am not fond of giving mine crickets unless they are small and young. Whether roaches and crickets have nutrients is not what I question so much, its their size and structure. I would not offer someone peanut brittle if they had no teeth, likewise a ribeye steak. I don't see what's wrong with dusting roaches in fiber powder first, maybe that would help the frog. I'm still trying to help frogs/toads when they can't. Maybe their meat is good, no question, its their size, frogs can't chew like we can, shells would be slower to digest and have a better chance of impacting, constipating, blockage. 

I don't eat food that is too big, too hard, or if I can't chew it first. People chew then swallow. Frogs just gulp and swallow. Even flies bred indoors seem more reasonable to give. I like your honey and soaking idea. When you have inactivity, curled up intestines like they are in our bellies, and something too big to fit, its like trying to squueze an idaho potato down your kitchen drain. I've had digestive complaints same as frogs and its not painful. I know to avoid it next time I eat. I still feel for a frog/toad that has to experience several days of cramping, pain, buldging abdomen. This is not fun.

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## MatthewM1

They may not chew or completely digest the chitin but it does get broken down in their digestive tract to an extent. It's not like they are passing a whole shell that looks like a roach with the insides sucked out of it

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## Hoppity100

Thanks for explaining, ...any parts of a shell I question though. I mean, I can't picture one being digested with any ease. Gosh, it must hurt to an extent being passed. Next time I swallow an eggplant or avocado whole, I'll let you know how I'm doing. Before I do that, I'll write first. I'm looking out for frogs, not telling anyone what to do, but to reconsider feeding these roaches. Roaches are normally so hard the only way to kill them is with a hammer,.. that's if you can catch them first. I ran over a roach once with my car and that thing kept crawling! I think they are the last bugs to survive a nuclear tragedy. They also resemble peanuts, actually too much. I still eat peanuts, but now that I think about it, a roach with salt would be too easy to mistake for a peanut. Gotta sign off and visit the pet store..I need a new gravel vac for my fish tank. Later...

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## MatthewM1

Frogs digestive tracks have adapted and evolved over thousands of years to digest whole prey, and ours have not. a human eating a whole avocado is nothing like a frog eating a whole roach. And from my understanding dubia exoskeletons are softer than many other species of roach

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## DeeDub

> Thanks for explaining, ...any parts of a shell I question though. I mean, I can't picture one being digested with any ease. Gosh, it must hurt to an extent being passed. Next time I swallow an eggplant or avocado whole, I'll let you know how I'm doing. Before I do that, I'll write first. I'm looking out for frogs, not telling anyone what to do, but to reconsider feeding these roaches. Roaches are normally so hard the only way to kill them is with a hammer,.. that's if you can catch them first. I ran over a roach once with my car and that thing kept crawling! I think they are the last bugs to survive a nuclear tragedy. They also resemble peanuts, actually too much. I still eat peanuts, but now that I think about it, a roach with salt would be too easy to mistake for a peanut. Gotta sign off and visit the pet store..I need a new gravel vac for my fish tank. Later...


The whole idea of roaches or crickets being detrimental is moronic.  Why are we even having this debate?  These frogs are not fragile little creatures.  They are super hearty and can deal with alot.  That doesn't mean we test thier limits.  I am all for babying them.  I enjoy doing it.  All of your "imagine me swallowing a water mellon, eggplant, corn cob" analogies have nothing to do with these frogs.  Read what someone else is telling you.  Maybe you will learn something.  They are designed to eat prey that is large; they are designed to eat chitinous insects; they don't eat spagetti or prunes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  BTW, who the h e l l kills roaches with a hammer?  Have you ever seen a roach you idiot?

Hoppity, you are not qualified to give anyone advice.  That is clearly evident in almost everything you post on any thread on this forum.  You say you want to help other people.  Stop giving subjective, nonobjective, illogical advice.  I can't beleive the c r a p that I read on this forum that you have posted (that goes for the most part unanswered by those in the know).  Your "Help" is one of the most detrimental things a new owner or potential owner could read.  I don't know if you intentionally post things to be controversial (trolling) or are really just not very smart.  

Bad husbandry practices getting propagated by blow hard, psuedo expert, internet cowboys like you are the biggest health risk to our captive frogs.  Stop passing your B.S. conjecture to others.  Why haven't the Mods taught this guy/girl some sense?  Isn't that your role here?  I know we need to be civil, cooperative, supportive, nice etc.  but to what extent?  If we are going to pick our battles to remain civil, then lets start with this issue.  STOP LETTING PEOPLE GIVE OUT RETARDED ADVICE!!!  You can't limit what people can say, just don't let them go on and on without a reply from you. PLEASE KEEP US ON TRACK! CORRECT POOR HUSBANDRY ADVICE GIVEN OUT BY OTHERS!  I know that Husbandry practices vary, and that there will be some opinion related practices, but for the most part a little reminding nudge (slap) from the Mods in the right direction will solve most issues.

Now I digress....give me my punishment for injecting a little common sense into this 'debate' above...lol  Or don't and realize that a little tough love can go a long way to reaching much needed clarity  in a debate oriented, opinion riddled social media site such as this.

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deranged chipmunk

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## Heather

Okay guys... Understandable, but lets try and keep it polite. 

Hoppity, these frogs, like others, and even ourselves, produce enzymes and acids for digestion which break down parts of their food. Try dumping hydrochloride acid on foods and see what happens. The shells of roaches can easily be broken. Their backs are fairly soft except in the elder roaches, who have a bit tougher shell. The juveniles are quite squooshy in fact. Either way, roaches are actually not as hard to digest as you think and are quite healthy for them. 

Deedub, I understand your concerns and see that you do have good education of your frogs and their health. Please share your education pleasantly. I feel your frustrations, though we wish to keep our forum friendly. Teach vs. reprimand...

Thanks!

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## Hoppity100

Could be, yes frogs in the wild eat all sorts of insects. Its the impaction I've been concerned about and other people who agree about shell, chitin, boney parts from large crickets, too. Read about consequences of impaction and waiting around to see if frog poos. I think the owners are waiting around to see if frog lives.

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## DeeDub

> Okay guys... Understandable, but lets try and keep it polite. 
> 
> Hoppity, these frogs, like others, and even ourselves, produce enzymes and acids for digestion which break down parts of their food. Try dumping hydrochloride acid on foods and see what happens. The shells of roaches can easily be broken. Their backs are fairly soft except in the elder roaches, who have a bit tougher shell. The juveniles are quite squooshy in fact. Either way, roaches are actually not as hard to digest as you think and are quite healthy for them. 
> 
> Deedub, I understand your concerns and see that you do have good education of your frogs and their health. Please share your education pleasantly. I feel your frustrations, though we wish to keep our forum friendly. Teach vs. reprimand...
> 
> Thanks!


WILCO, thanks.

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## Hoppity100

I hope dubia skeletons are softer, apparently they are popular to feed. What about digesting the roach whole including chitin? That stuff is hard like our fingernails, ....I never would have thought this was so risky, until I read about people watching their frogs deal with an "impaction." Now I wonder if same people know about constipation vs impaction vs bowel obstruction vs proplapse vs perforation vs infection vs gangrene? Wanted to mention something this important. People have found these roaches are easy to maintain and breed, but, that's beside the point.

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## Hoppity100

Well, softer is better. What happens to the remains of this shell while in intestines? Yep, I'm making sure I have fiber powder here.

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## Hoppity100

Oh, forgot to mention how thin a bowel wall is and if its made thinner by repeated impactions then frog will die from that. He will have perforation, peritonitis, then death.

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## DeeDub

> Well, softer is better. What happens to the remains of this shell while in intestines? Yep, I'm making sure I have fiber powder here.



Any fiber powder you use will be incompatible with the digestive tract and further complicate any digestive issues.  A frog's digestive system is not made to break down vegetable matter i.e. spagetti<<<<<< Teaching

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## Heather

When the frog passes feces it is coated in a soft, slimy mucous like coating, like most animals. The excrement at that point is soft and any undigested particles are mixed within the soft stool, making it easy to pass. 

Yes....I am very aware as I am also a med/surg nurse and deal with similar human issues nearly everyday. 

Varying the diet creates the best 'consistency' of stool and provides the best nutrients.

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## DeeDub

> I hope dubia skeletons are softer, apparently they are popular to feed. What about digesting the roach whole including chitin? That stuff is hard like our fingernails, ....I never would have thought this was so risky, until I read about people watching their frogs deal with an "impaction." Now I wonder if same people know about constipation vs impaction vs bowel obstruction vs proplapse vs perforation vs infection vs gangrene? Wanted to mention something this important. People have found these roaches are easy to maintain and breed, but, that's beside the point.


Hey, on a serious note.

I can see you might actually be concerned about this. I feed primarily dubia roaches and earth worms to my Pyxies and Ornate. This impaction I have come to realize probably wasn't even an impaction. It was constipation. That is a good point. 

The only parts that don't digest that I regularly identify in feces is the one peice of large chitin that protects the head. Once in a while I will see a leg, or a head, but other than that it all turns into frog turd.

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## Heather

I only find the head cover as well, which, if concerned, easily comes off.

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## Heather

I am now going to close this thread. 

I'd like to add that the soaks should be no warmer than just a bit over luke warm or lightly warm to the touch and the water temps should not be rapidly cooled or warmed. It is safer to slowly warm or cool cold blooded animals as they lack the ability to adjust their own temps to compensate.

Have a great day guys! Please keep it polite....it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

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