# General Topics > General Discussion & News >  Hybrids?

## Animalnstinct

This has been on my mind for a bit and I figured I would just go ahead and ask. I know that placing two different species together is highly not recommended from people both in the frog and non frog community. 

However, I have noticed that it seems a bit more accepted in the frog community like with the fantasy pacman being a hybrid. I was just wondering why that is and if I'm maybe missing something?

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## poison beauties

Hybridization is actually frowned upon by most of the amphibian community though more so outspokenly by dart frog hobbyists. I see it this way, we are in a hobby that has so many shapes, colors and varieties of amphibians why do we need to create an unnatural one? 
By the way I am a very out spoken Dart Frog Hobbyists so my opinion is one sided.

Michael

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## ARMS87

Hybridisation is a method of evolution, non african humans are about 4% neanderthal according to new evidence. The way I see it, it's adding to the variety of this world and amphibians are a declining group..

More philosphical than practical help, my opinions are essentially if you can without causing suffering, go for it, just get as much help as possible, and of course you'd have to be realistic is the choices for mixing.

Ever saw a Tigon? Liger? Half Zebra Horses? Mixed Cats and Dogs.. etc etc

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## wesleybrouwer

A mix between cat and dog ?  :EEK!:  How? 

Personally i am not for hybrids.
Some hybrids don't show they are....untill a few generations later.
The frogs that are in the hobby, won't necesseraly be introduced from the wild again.
So polluting the bloodlines may cause losing a pure species in captivity all together.

Why pacmans are crossbred? No idea, maybe just because a new color will get more money or something?
The Fantasy frogs are invertile as well, so why bother anyway?

I think crossbreeding isn't always in the best interest of the animal,
more for human enjoyment or economical purpose.
Why breeding snakes with the weirdest colors that can't even move properly anymore,
or bearded dragond, so called "leather backs".
They miss the scales on the back, not a wise choice for a species that need to sunbath.

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## Eric Walker

> By the way I am a very out spoken Dart Frog Hobbyists so my opinion is one sided.
> 
> Michael


ha ha , thats an understatement michael. :Stick Out Tongue: 

I totally agree though. and no clue what they are thinking with those fat frogs.

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## ARMS87

> A mix between cat and dog ?  How? 
> 
> Personally i am not for hybrids.
> Some hybrids don't show they are....untill a few generations later.
> The frogs that are in the hobby, won't necesseraly be introduced from the wild again.
> So polluting the bloodlines may cause losing a pure species in captivity all together.
> 
> Why pacmans are crossbred? No idea, maybe just because a new color will get more money or something?
> The Fantasy frogs are invertile as well, so why bother anyway?
> ...



Mixed breeds of dog, and mixed breeds of cat, not cat and dog together!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

The word polluting implies that one of the species is inferior  :Frog Surprise: 

Did you mean infertile? Odds are there will be a pair that are fertile born at some point..

Mixing can create an animal with superior traits than it's parents.
In humans trying to keep bloodlines free from novel traits creates disease and insanity :P  something the royalty of europe and the nazis never thought about. I personally think the most beautiful women are the offspring of an asian and a caucasian  :Wink: 

Again not giving practical help, just an argument for the principle of mixed breeding  :Cool:

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## smashtoad

> I think crossbreeding isn't always in the best interest of the animal...


This subject always ends in the same way...an argument.

If animals can successfully breed and produce fertile young, they are usually a stronger animal overall, and obviously, God or Mother Nature (however you swing) is cool with it too. Line breeding is much more detrimental in the long run, but you can't convince some people of that, even though pure bred dogs and their line bred issues are well known.

Some folks seem to think that keeping two varieties of D. tinctorious (for example) from different sides of a river seperate, because one has leg stripes and the other has leg spots, has some significance in this life and should be observed at all cost. 

Personally, I find the whole thing silly. It is as if someday we're gonna have this huge reintroduction party and turn everything loose, and they all have to go back exactly where they are from, and if you turn them loose somewhere else, Al Gore gets to publicly flog you on a special live edition of Sixty Minutes.

If someone wants to keep their animal line pure, great. But if someone else wants to hybridize something, that should be fine too. The good thing is that they can whine and moan all they want...and that's about it.

If I could have a ten inch toad colored like a bumblebee toad, I wouldn't give a **** how it was produced, or where it came from.

To the mods:  When you censor the word c - r - a - p, it makes people think I used another word, which I didn't.

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## Tony

> Mixed breeds of dog, and mixed breeds of cat, not cat and dog together!


You are comparing man-made varieties to wild forms that have evolved over many thousands of years or more in response to the unique selective pressures of their environments. It is an apples and oranges argument. 




> Some folks seem to think that keeping two varieties of D. tinctorious (for example) from different sides of a river seperate, because one has leg stripes and the other has leg spots, has some significance in this life and should be observed at all cost.


If those two forms of _tinctorius_ represent distinct populations in the wild, then they absolutely should be kept separate in captivity. It has nothing to do with the phenotype, some populations are polymorphic but interbreed freely like Bastimentos Island _pumilio_, and some populations that are widely separated in nature express similar phenotypes like the various green and black _auratus_. What is important is maintaining the genetic integrity of our captive populations, if they don't interbreed in nature then they should not be interbred in captivity. It doesn't matter if YOU think a particular barrier to gene flow appears significant or not, if that barrier is enough to segregate two distinct wild populations it doesn't matter how small it seems.

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## Whistly

Not really about frogs but I hybridize my Bengalese and Zebra finches and they turn out fine and I've had no problems and if anything they look better than the pure bred finches, so if you can try and get two frogs with beautiful markings they should turn out quite good also ARMS87 a zebra x horse is called a zorse and another cross breed is the polar bear x grizzly bear so if it happens in nature I'm sure it can happen in captivity.

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## poison beauties

My question is why? If you cant find a natural variation or color bird, fish, frog or dog you probably are in the wrong hobby as we have about the biggest selection available next to plants and insects.
9 out of 10 times its all about the $$$.   If our hobby wasn't 90% of small business's we really wouldnt have this issue. Up until a couple years ago it was a much rarer occurrence, now the new generation of ''hobbyists'' want to breed for the money. Otherwise we wouldn't see nothing but ''Proven Pairs or Sexed Pairs or Groups Wanted''

There is nothing in this hobby that a hybrid can fix, we are losing many of them in the wild and I'd like to think a few people would like to hold onto whats left, not alter it.

Michael

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## smashtoad

> If those two forms of _tinctorius_ represent distinct populations in the wild, then they absolutely should be kept separate in captivity. It has nothing to do with the phenotype, some populations are polymorphic but interbreed freely like Bastimentos Island _pumilio_, and some populations that are widely separated in nature express similar phenotypes like the various green and black _auratus_. What is important is maintaining the genetic integrity of our captive populations, if they don't interbreed in nature then they should not be interbred in captivity.


WHY must they be kept seperate? WHY is it important? You "purists" love to announce, proclaim, and / or decree what should be, but you can't come within Pluto of a coherent WHY. Give it a shot. If you can't tell...I don't like it when people use caps at me and insult me as if I'm a lesser zoological entity.




> It doesn't matter if YOU think a particular barrier to gene flow appears significant or not, if that barrier is enough to segregate two distinct wild populations it doesn't matter how small it seems.


Sure does...matters a lot. They're in my house, see. I'm the one breeding them  :Cool: . I am aware there are those who would love nothing more than the ability to call Brady Bahr on me, so he could kick my door down and rescue my frogs from the horrible prospect of a stronger gene pool...but the thing is, I would destroy that tail grabbing wimp...man I can't stand that guy...king of the Irwin wannabes.

Besides, next week a rockslide bridges the river and voila! *Natural hybrids!* Whooda thunk it??? So you're saying we should not, ever, do something that occurs naturally all the time? Nah...thanks anyway.




> Not really about frogs but I hybridize my Bengalese and Zebra finches and they turn out fine and I've had no problems and if anything they look better than the pure bred finches, so if you can try and get two frogs with beautiful markings they should turn out quite good also ARMS87 a zebra x horse is called a zorse and another cross breed is the polar bear x grizzly bear so if it happens in nature I'm sure it can happen in captivity.


Dude...you are puttin some panties in a wad...back away slowly before they turn into that kid in school who had to be crying before he could fight, but when he started, look the heck out, cause he's coming like a feline berserker...kickin, bitin, pullin hair, and screamin in a language only Chris Crocker understands.

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## poison beauties

like you said NATURAL HYBRIDS, not idiot produced outcrossed Tinctorious Morphs. They are infact  sperated by natural barriers and yes natural hybrids do occur, but to say you want to cross them purposely here maes no since. Why? Do you not have enough options as to color and pattern in this hobby? Do you really want to end up on the list that floats around the dart frog hobby on known hybridizers and be considered an outcast to which people will not accept frogs from you or sell you any? Think I'm joking? I bet if anyone else knows me they know I'm not, you seem to just want to start **** but go over to DB or DF and announce you liking of Hybridizing Dart Frogs, Even feel free to mention your practicing it. I will be waiting.  Either way you name is known.

Michael

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## smashtoad

> My question is why? If you cant find a natural variation or color bird, fish, frog or dog you probably are in the wrong hobby as we have about the biggest selection available next to plants and insects.
> 9 out of 10 times its all about the $$$. If our hobby wasn't 90% of small business's we really wouldnt have this issue. Up until a couple years ago it was a much rarer occurrence, now the new generation of ''hobbyists'' want to breed for the money. Otherwise we wouldn't see nothing but ''Proven Pairs or Sexed Pairs or Groups Wanted''
> 
> There is nothing in this hobby that a hybrid can fix, we are losing many of them in the wild and I'd like to think a few people would like to hold onto whats left, not alter it.
> 
> Michael


C'mon...why?  Beauty, mystery, imagination, creativity, the wonders of nature and all the things we have yet to find out.  You wouldn't want a fantasticus the size of a female mint if it were possible?  Bullcrap.

Nothing in the hobby hybrids can fix?  I have a trio of yellow terribilus that I have had for over two years.  One is perfect, one has a "goiter" the size of a jelly belly on one side of it's throat, and the third has a crooked back and a slightly gimpy leg.  No one, including the well respected breeder I bought them from, has any clue why...they just do.  So, now my $300 trio that I spent two years raising is essentially worthless because I cannot in good conscience breed them. 

So I'd say there are things that hybrids can do...starting with healthy frogs.  So guess what?  Enter the mints...stay tuned.

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## smashtoad

> like you said NATURAL HYBRIDS, not idiot produced outcrossed Tinctorious Morphs. They are infact sperated by natural barriers and yes natural hybrids do occur, but to say you want to cross them purposely here maes no since. Why? Do you not have enough options as to color and pattern in this hobby? Do you really want to end up on the list that floats around the dart frog hobby on known hybridizers and be considered an outcast to which people will not accept frogs from you or sell you any? Think I'm joking? I bet if anyone else knows me they know I'm not, you seem to just want to start **** but go over to DB or DF and announce you liking of Hybridizing Dart Frogs, Even feel free to mention your practicing it. I will be waiting. Either way you name is known.
> 
> Michael


Wow...enter Chris Crocker.

Told ya...didn't even take 5 minutes. Hey Skippy...take your dendroclique and shove it.  If I produced terribilus that were grass green...you think I would have trouble selling them?  If so you are a moron.

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## wesleybrouwer

Come on, it doesn't have to do with improving a species.
What improves a leatherback bearded dragon apart from it being "worth more"?
Or a snake with lovely colors, it just can't crawl straight forward anymore.

So we can go on.

Hybrids, are just man desciding that they don't have to respect nature,
they just do whatever they feel like.

Not in the interest of the animal, no just to please themselfs.

Like already said before, there are so many species, why do you possibly think you have to alter them?
This is what takes the world down, altering everything in nature, if that was supposed, nature would have taken action long before you even opened you're eyes.

I can tell you why you got yourself crooked animals,
nowadays, everyone like to get everything ashore.
Even if the froglet isn't doing so well, they just seperate it to let it grow some more.
I also have some bad froglets sometimes, buy they never make it to adulthood,
i am not going to overthrow them with food in a small viv just to let it survive.

As the say, money is the root of all evil.
And they are kinda right.

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Ebony

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## poison beauties

> C'mon...why?  Beauty, mystery, imagination, creativity, the wonders of nature and all the things we have yet to find out.  You wouldn't want a fantasticus the size of a female mint if it were possible?  Bullcrap.
> 
> Nothing in the hobby hybrids can fix?  I have a trio of yellow terribilus that I have had for over two years.  One is perfect, one has a "goiter" the size of a jelly belly on one side of it's throat, and the third has a crooked back and a slightly gimpy leg.  No one, including the well respected breeder I bought them from, has any clue why...they just do.  So, now my $300 trio that I spent two years raising is essentially worthless because I cannot in good conscience breed them. 
> 
> So I'd say there are things that hybrids can do...starting with healthy frogs.  So guess what?  Enter the mints...stay tuned.


I have no interest in making Fants the size of terribs. I have favored the ranitomeya for years and have been working with them since 2003, If I wanted anything it would be for better husbandry all around. Id like to see better management and tracking of all lines, and locales here. There are too many unknowns still in this hobby to go off and create more.

Sorry to hear about your terribs but **** happens. Well respected breeders or not it happens and I dont see any reason you cant seek out another for the pairing of your healthy yellow terrib. I know many Breeders that could help you out there depending on the sex but juvies arent hard to get. 

Your not going to fair well in the hobby with that opinion, Its been proven time and time again that its undesired by the hobby, Crossing terribs or whatever is just stupid knowing we have many unrelated lines to open up the genetics pathways with. Crossing locales is not needed.

Michael

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## poison beauties

> Wow...enter Chris Crocker.
> 
> Told ya...didn't even take 5 minutes. Hey Skippy...take your dendroclique and shove it.  If I produced terribilus that were grass green...you think I would have trouble selling them?  If so you are a moron.


Maybe not but it would NOT be respected breeders/ hobbyists that bought them which again proves my point that all the hybridization and  selective breeding for new traits is all about the money. How long have you been in the Dart Frog hobby and what well respected hobbyists agree with your views on this? I can name plenty that share my views both seasoned hobbyists and new. Ive been in this hobby since 1999 and EVERY hobbyist that shares those views are looked down on if not completely shunned.
Before 1999 I was breeding other herps and yes I know hybridizing and selective breeding is all they are about now. That is where many new amphibian hobbyists come from with those views.

Michael

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## bshmerlie

The thing with darts is that they body shapes all look alike. So sometimes its just the color or certain markings that separate different lines. If we start cross breeding it muddies the water.  Now someone could unknowingly buy a frog thinking its one thing and it might not be.  Yes I know everyone loves their mutt dog ....you've seen them...the german Shepard poodle mix. But when you look at them you know its a mutt.  There is no confussion about it.  But with darts that's not the case. It can be hard to tell. So keep them separate so that the original colors and markings will still be there for future generations of frog nerds.  Please keep the conversation civil this does not have to be an argument.

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## clownonfire

I got myself some popcorn. This is more entertaining than the last season of Dexter.

I am with the hobbyists, on this one. It's this pompous humankind desire to temper with everything that confuses me. It doesn't matter if we're able to create a brand new set of morphs. It's not our place. If it happens out there, in nature, then let it take its natural course. There's no need for us to change or add or to modify. It serves no purpose. If anything, with the decreasing population of frogs, why not put our efforts into preserving the endangered existing species? 

Now my keyboard is all buttery.

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## Tony

> WHY must they be kept seperate? WHY is it important? You "purists" love to announce, proclaim, and / or decree what should be, but you can't come within Pluto of a coherent WHY. Give it a shot. If you can't tell...I don't like it when people use caps at me and insult me as if I'm a lesser zoological entity.


Why? Because that is how they evolved and exist in nature. This hobby is about recreating, preserving, and appreciating a small slice of the natural world in our homes. Creating hybrids is an act of arrogant disrespect toward the product of millions of years of natural selection, it destroys nature instead of preserving it. If you want to be that guy there is nothing I can do about it, but don't expect to be able to sell many of your hybrid froglets. If you want to play mad scientist why not breed leopard geckos, corn snakes, or another species that has already been screwed with beyond recognition and spare frogs that fate?

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## poison beauties

> Why? Because that is how they evolved and exist in nature. This hobby is about recreating, preserving, and appreciating a small slice of the natural world in our homes. Creating hybrids is an act of arrogant disrespect toward the product of millions of years of natural selection, it destroys nature instead of preserving it. If you want to be that guy there is nothing I can do about it, but don't expect to be able to sell many of your hybrid froglets. If you want to play mad scientist why not breed leopard geckos, corn snakes, or another species that has already been screwed with beyond recognition and spare frogs that fate?



There it is, the second person telling you your ways of thought are wrong. Go ahead and hybridize or outcross your frogs, Still waiting for you to post up your plans or ideas on DB or DF. Why not go ahead and seal your fait in this hobby as an idiot outcast. Your really must not know the hobby all that well because had you told the respected breeder you bought those yellow terribs from your ideas or plans chances are you wouldn't have them. Then again you may have meant respected hybridizers among your own friends.

Michael

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## John Clare

I don't have a problem with people discussing this controversial topic here.  However, I see far too much use of words like "idiot", "bullcrap", multiple ****, etc.  Please, have some respect to each other, and to the reader.

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## smashtoad

> Hybrids, are just man desciding that they don't have to respect nature,
> they just do whatever they feel like.
> 
> This is what takes the world down, altering everything in nature, if that was supposed, nature would have taken action long before you even opened you're eyes.
> 
> As the say, money is the root of all evil.
> And they are kinda right.


I agree with you on the money...my motivation is not money.  Nature already did take action...where do you think all the different tincs came from?




> Sorry to hear about your terribs but **** happens.


Yes it surely does...$300 and two years worth, and I have absolutely no recourse.  These frogs are inbred, but the "respected breeder" can just say, "Mine are all fine..." and that's it.  Ain't good enough for me.




> How long have you been in the Dart Frog hobby and what well respected hobbyists agree with your views on this? I can name plenty that share my views both seasoned hobbyists and new. Ive been in this hobby since 1999 and EVERY hobbyist that shares those views are looked down on if not completely shunned.


I bought my first green anole from Boy's Life magazine in 1975 when I was 8.  I've learned a lot in my years, and one of the biggest lessons is that "scientists" value one thing above any other: Having a crisis to solve to legitimize their funding.

Shunned? You are determined to convince me, aren't you, that there is some all knowing body of hobbyists that can prevent me from enjoying, buying, breeding, and maybe even selling frogs. I am too old to be intimidated by the clique thing...so you can save that.  I don't require the approval of a clique to geek out over the wonders of nature.  I usually do that alone. Give it up, dude...it's weak.

This forum isn't as fully infiltrated as some others by the hobby snobs...there are people here I can help...so here I am.  Dendroboard is VERY informative...and I can milk it of all the info I need without commenting.  I used it for terrarium design knowledge...and eventually modified Patrick Nabors' method to my own.  

Dendroboard is as cliquey as they get (chameleonforums.com may be worse). Science is good!  People are bad! All life came from primordial goo...you know what I mean.




> I got myself some popcorn. This is more entertaining than the last season of Dexter.


Dexter is freakin awesome...very, very sad to see Luna go...or did she?  I forget now...nice shot of stelzneri on your avatar...I love mine (I have 7).  I am planning to immediately hybridize them with roccoco toads... :Wink: 

Wait...no one would want a 12 inch, four pound, jet black and sun yellow toad to display in their home in a fully vivved-out 200 gallon cube, would they?  How silly of me.  I am evil.




> Why? Creating hybrids is an act of arrogant disrespect toward the product of millions of years of natural selection, it destroys nature instead of preserving it.


The first part is simply opinion (which we all have, right?)...the last part just makes no sense to me.  Hybridization destroys nature?  Whether we do it or a big windstorm does it...it is and always has been part of nature.  It's real simple:  If they can produce fertile young, that is God's stamp of approval (in my opinion) to breed them.




> If you want to be that guy there is nothing I can do about it, but don't expect to be able to sell many of your hybrid froglets. If you want to play mad scientist why not breed leopard geckos, corn snakes, or another species that has already been screwed with beyond recognition and spare frogs that fate?


If I want to be "that guy"...nice.  Your vision of nature isn't the only one.  That fate?  What fate?  These are pets, man...just pets.

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## smashtoad

> There it is, the second person telling you your ways of thought are wrong. Go ahead and hybridize or outcross your frogs, Still waiting for you to post up your plans or ideas on DB or DF. Why not go ahead and seal your fait in this hobby as an idiot outcast. Your really must not know the hobby all that well because had you told the respected breeder you bought those yellow terribs from your ideas or plans chances are you wouldn't have them. Then again you may have meant respected hybridizers among your own friends.
> 
> Michael


Wow...are you gonna tell on me, Michael?  I figured you for 19, maybe 22 or 23...but 30?  Jeez...grow a set, dude.

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## smashtoad

> I don't have a problem with people discussing this controversial topic here. However, I see far too much use of words like "idiot", "bullcrap", multiple ****, etc. Please, have some respect to each other, and to the reader.


John, 

I am trying to present my opinions in an entertaining way that is respectful as possible to those determined to prove me wrong with their unproveable Algorian opinions.  My prediction of a Chris Crocker appearance has manifested itself in Michael, who I can write under the table with one hand while talking to my wife on the phone with the other.  If he persists in throwing a cyber fit in my direction...I will continue to spank him with the written word.

Please know that I am trying to help him with his dendrocliquey idol worship.  He can think for himself...I know he has it in him.

This subject always sinks to this...but I enjoy trying to show posters (and readers) that what they think they know about the natural world...they don't...and they do not like it...at all.  Hence the Chriscrockerian fit-throwing.

I will not name call...but I would love for this to continue.  My guess is Michael will fold similarly to a cheap lawn chair for one reason: his opinions are just that...opinions.  Opinions cannot be proven, regardless of how many Al Gore followers stomp their feet until their "Michael Moore is a Stud" tee shirts are drenched with petuli smelling sweat.

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## bshmerlie

> Wow...are you gonna tell on me, Michael?  I figured you for 19, maybe 22 or 23...but 30?  Jeez...grow a set, dude.


Comments like this show your level of maturity and not called for. Hopefully Mike is the better man and avoids rolling in the mud with you.

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## poison beauties

> Wow...are you gonna tell on me, Michael?  I figured you for 19, maybe 22 or 23...but 30?  Jeez...grow a set, dude.


HaHa, grow a set? You really have no clue why I'm even here but I will tell you this there is no hiding behind a computer here and there is no fear of confritation so why not show up at Frog Day and we can debate this in person with a couple hundred other froggers and get to the point that I'm pushing. Your ideals are not helping this hobby and they are not favored by any one respected member of this hobby. Ive bred more dart frogs than you have had herps I guarentee you that. I have nothing but the interest in helping others as our hobby needs it so keep up the idiocy and send me your addy and I will send you a Don't Be A Hybridiot Tshirt. I bet you will look nice in the xsmall pink one.

I have offered you plenty of points on this subject. This hobby is gearing towards advancement and we will call your BS when we see it. You are free to continue the debate but calling me out will not make you look good. Everyone who knows me knows Ive gone to shows for no other reason that to meet people like you.

Ive got plenty of ties in this hobby and I invite you to post this stuff up on any other dart board and continue and see how well you fair, I will even send you an invite to a board we are building so you can post in private so the rest of the hobby doesnt have to see you run off with your tail between your legs because it will happen. You can shove your ideals of me folding like a lawn chair up your ***. 

And just who is the respected breeder that offered you no more info that ''My frogs are fine''? I know most of them and the ones I do not I guarentee you they offered more info that that. Your lack of knowledge as to how this hobby flows tells me you likely messed up with your terribs. Inbred or not we have proven we can breed them to f5 and beyond without issue. You cant blame yourfailed project on anyone but your self. You want a real challenge and yes Im saying terribs are beginner level frogs try taking on Reticulata and give me a call when youve produced a couple hundred froglets.

There is plenty of posted info on the boards about proper care anything from Quarantine and testing to husbandry and breeding. You lost a very hardy species. Chances are you did it yourself.

Michael

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## Tony

> God's stamp of approval


I didn't realize you were a creationist, I'll stop wasting my time providing rational, fact-based arguments for you.

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## Geofrog707

> I didn't realize you were a creationist, I'll stop wasting my time providing rational, fact-based arguments for you.


  Sorry but I had to say that this comment made me laugh HARD.  Funniest comment I have seen on frogforum.net I think so far lol.   :Big Applause:  :Big Applause:  :Big Applause:  


  And so this comment doesn't look like spam or a way to get more post, I will say that I think breeding hybrids is ok, but with a lot of restrictions.  For one, I don't think you should breed the hybrids together that come out of the original frogs.  Two, I think you should do a lot of research first to see if that hybrid was already created and what deformities or etc. it had wrong with it.  If it even had the slightest thing wrong with it, I don't think you should make the animal suffer just for your curiosity.  I understand however that this information might not always be readily available so you want to try and test the experiment out yourself.  I am not saying this is bad, because after all if we didn't take chances how could science progress, but I do see it as very, very pointless.  There are many, many, many different colorations and even sizes of Dart Frogs.  Why would you want to risk making a deformed animal and causing it to suffer rather than just pick one of the hundreds of poison dart frog patterns and colors?     

P.S. : I would appreciate it if you stopped using the term "Algorian" or anything that relates to an insult to Al gore.  He wanted the environment to prosper and continue to exist for the future, and I think that was very big of him to make that one of his priorities if he got in office.  So I would like it if you stopped referring to that term.

P.S.S. : I also am in NO way a "respectable breeder" of frogs at ALL.  So please don't think I have overstepped my bounds by even commenting on this, as I just thought I would share my opinion since I wanted to throw out there that I laughed pretty hard at Tony's comment.  I have never bred frogs in my life and I don't plan to soon.  If I do I doubt it will ever be for selling as well, unless I just needed to get rid of them so they could have better lives other than what I could offer.  So yeah.  :Big Grin:

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## smashtoad

> ...so why not show up at Frog Day and we can debate this in person with a couple hundred other froggers and get to the point that I'm pushing...I bet you will look nice in the xsmall pink one...I have offered you plenty of points on this subject. Everyone who knows me knows Ive gone to shows for no other reason that to meet people like you.


Michael, Michael...we should slow down just a bit. You are now assuming and stating things that could end up with you looking really foolish. Let's stick to the subject, shall we? The points you gave me that hybridization is inherently bad...where were those, exactly? I mean besides those that exist solely in the minds of you and your peers?

The fact that you seem to think I should be intimidated by you is kinda weird, actually. Meet people like me at swaps and do what? Surround them and...do what? Offer up opinions in a forceful manner while frowning?




> And just who is the respected breeder that offered you no more info that ''My frogs are fine''? I know most of them and the ones I do not I guarentee you they offered more info that that. Your lack of knowledge as to how this hobby flows tells me you likely messed up with your terribs. Inbred or not we have proven we can breed them to f5 and beyond without issue. You cant blame yourfailed project on anyone but your self. You want a real challenge and yes Im saying terribs are beginner level frogs try taking on Reticulata and give me a call when youve produced a couple hundred froglets.
> 
> There is plenty of posted info on the boards about proper care anything from Quarantine and testing to husbandry and breeding. You lost a very hardy species. Chances are you did it yourself.
> 
> Michael


So...what could I have done wrong to cause the things I've detailed? Please enlighten me, Michael. Let me guess...there are so many things you couldn't possibly offer any details about how I could have, out of three seemingly perfect froglets, end up with one good, one bad, and one ugly. I know terribilis is a hardy species, Michael. Congratulations on your greatness. So they've been bred to F5...and?...beyond, no doubt? Then what?




> I didn't realize you were a creationist, I'll stop wasting my time providing rational, fact-based arguments for you.


Thanks, Al. Can't argue? Call them stupid. You guys should try a new strategy sometime...just a thought. 




> Sorry but I had to say that this comment made me laugh HARD. Funniest comment I have seen on frogforum.net I think so far lol.


That made you laugh HARD? Why? You guys do know, don't you, that Ben Stein sat down with Richard Dawkins, one of the most respected evolutionists in the world (this will delight Michael, no doubt...this guy is peer reviewed!!!), and talked him into a corner, right?

No? Give it a spin...it's awesome. You guys will not like it, though.
YouTube - Ben Stein vs Richard Dawkins

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## smashtoad

> Comments like this show your level of maturity and not called for. Hopefully Mike is the better man and avoids rolling in the mud with you.


Enter MSNBC...no matter what Michael screams about, no matter what he says to me or calls me...Cheri is gonna take his side and ignore mine...you folks could try to be a little less predictable.

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## bshmerlie

> Enter MSNBC...no matter what Michael screams about, no matter what he says to me or calls me...Cheri is gonna take his side and ignore mine...you folks could try to be a little less predictable.


Obviously you weren't around for the first time we had this argument before. I questioned Michael on his character for starting an argument for the sole purpose of starting an augment.  If you want to continue this argument all I ask is that we do so without the measuring of ones appendages. I noticed you never responded to my reasoning to why you shouldn't cross darts on page one of this thread. Does it make too much sense and you don't know what to say?  Believe it or not Im not the extreme anti morph person that Michael is. But when it comes to darts I agree with him 100% for the reason I gave on page one.  Not every issue is black or white. But when buying a frog it should be black or white...there should be no confussion as to what the persons buying.  When you buy an albino red eye ..there's no doubt.  When you buy a Fantasy pacman...people know what they're buying.  But with darts you can't say that with certainty. I like color morphs,  ex, red eyes and the blue phase whites. (I know the blues are found in nature just stay with me).  Colors add variety to a tank without people having to mix species. But with darts there are so many color options there really is no reason to mix beyond just a reason to keep this argument going. I am not choosing a side here...I just against those who argue for arguments sake.  This argument is not black and white but we can all be civil without threats or name calling.

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## poison beauties

> Michael, Michael...we should slow down just a bit. You are now assuming and stating things that could end up with you looking really foolish. Let's stick to the subject, shall we? The points you gave me that hybridization is inherently bad...where were those, exactly? I mean besides those that exist solely in the minds of you and your peers?


Im finished here. I probably should have stepped back when you first appeared but I couldnt help it. I really do have my own projects going on right now. I will be taking my time to contribute to them as I get nothing from coming here to help answer questions on the parts of the hobby I do know. Your always welcome to bring you statements to DB and see how it fairs there. Ive been rather nice here out of respect for the board. Over there I would be hoppy to pull up the old threads on this and site you plenty more reasons why your just ignorant. Its kind of like being the smartest special ed kid, you dont give them a metal you try and help them advance more. All I've done is try and help you.


Michael

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## Tony

> Thanks, Al. Can't argue? Call them stupid. You guys should try a new strategy sometime...just a thought.


And how exactly does one counter an argument that essentially boils down to "I can do whatever I want because they are my frogs, and my god says you are a doody-head!"? I'll discuss facts and figures all day long, but I have nothing to say to blind faith and childish rebellion.

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## smashtoad

> And how exactly does one counter an argument that essentially boils down to "I can do whatever I want because they are my frogs, and my god says you are a doody-head!"? I'll discuss facts and figures all day long, but I have nothing to say to blind faith and childish rebellion.


Facts? Figures? You have GOT to be kidding me...

All I am saying is this: In my opinion, if two species can produce fertile young, then in the big scheme of things, breeding them falls within nature's guidelines. What the guy who suggested documenting deformities was talking about I have no clue...mixing usually strengthens a species...not the opposite. Hybridizing every species I come into contact with is not my goal or love.

Keeping the species "pure" is a love of and faith in geographic consistency (a faith nature does not subscribe to) and nothing more. And striving to do so is fine...but striving to see what surprises nature has in store within the genes of two animals is fine too. We're keeping them in glass boxes, for the love of Pete.

I watch documentaries all the time, as I'm sure many of you folks do as well. These days I watch closely for claims that cannot possibly be proven, or blatant hypocrisy. 

On the series _Expedition Great White_, these guys were dragging huge white sharks out of the water (with giant hooks and line no less), drilling holes through their dorsal fins, and among other things, attaching (bolting) tracking devices to them...and for what? To find out if the sharks' reasons for traveling from Baja almost to the Hawaiian Islands was to breed. Well, they're breeding somewhere...that'd be my guess. Finding out exactly where is really not beneficial to mankind...but they use words like, "critical" and "valuable" data. It's absolutely valuable in one respect: securing funding for next year...and that's about it.

Last night I watched a show on the Zambezi river, and they featured a lioness on the show that they seemed very familiar with who had been kicked out of her pride and was alone...they made no mention (not one word) of the giant leather tracking collar on her neck and what role it may have played in her ostracism...that is very funny to me. It was as if we were supposed to just know why it was there.

Two nights ago a guy was off the coast of Belize collecting boas, and trying to unravel the "mystery" of why the insular boas were smaller that their mainland counterparts...again, "critical" data...whatever.

Charles Darwin discovered nothing on Galapagos, nada, nix, nil, nothing that we hadn't been doing with the domestic dog ourselves for 4K years, yet people acted like the dude taught himself to fly...it's just dumb.

I'm curious to know how many of you so vehemently disagreeing with me are fine with human cloning? 

And to the lady who asked I not denegrate the name of Al Gore...ma'am, if you think that guy has done anything but line his pockets with your good intentions, I'm sorry, but you are fooling yourself. Al Gore is a charletain in the truest sense of the word, and if you weren't convinced of that two years ago, you don't want to know the truth, and I will not waste my time trying to convince you of it. Al Gore ran from nothing faster than any scientific debate he was ever challenged too, and much of his data has been trashed as manipulated.

You guys are right, though, this just needs to be done. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Take care.

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## bshmerlie

Smashtoad, finally the argument is over...yeah.  One side note for all those involved. Being on the internet we hide from who we are with a "screen name" or "avatar" or the anonymity of simply being on the internet.  We say things, we bash each other, or we argue just for the sake of arguing. Some say they don't care about how they are perceived in the community and I think they say that because of the anonymity. I post my name and my age next to my avatar picture. I am 41 years old. The other guy you've been arguing is Michael, he is 30 years old and finally there is Tony, he is 28 years old. When we go to a convention or Frog Day we introduce ourselves and say, "Hey, I'm Cheri from Frog Forum nice to meet you...Mike from Dendroboard". But we don't know your name or your age.  I stand behind what I say because I don't argue with irrational judgement.  I think about what I say before I write. Now...sometimes opinions can change. I'm not one of those who bashes the politian for "flip floppng" on something he said 30 years prior.  We educate ourselve. We have new experiences and we talk with people who have different views.  We argued this same subject a few months back. Back then I didn't really see why Michael was so upset if someone wanted a color morph of a tree frog because that was my perspective. I came from the tree frog world and he came from the dart world.  Not until I got into darts and did my own research did I realize the confussion that hybrid and morphs could cause in that community.  I now can place myself in his shoes and see it from the other side. Maybe one day I can bring Mike over to the tree frog side and then I'll mail him a pink pokadotted Red Eye Leaf frog and name it Lucy. :Smile:   Anyways you should care what people think of you because the reason we come onto Frog Forums is to have a sense of community with others who share our frog passion. You don't want to be afraid of someone at a convention saying "OHHH...you're SmashToad...well in that case...."  Be cautious of how you say things and don't always have such a flippent attitude.  Yes they are just pets but we do have a sense of responsibility to them and the frog community in general.  My two cents.

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## Tony

> Maybe one day I can bring Mike over to the tree frog side and then I'll mail him a pink pokadotted Red Eye Leaf frog and name it Lucy.


Working on that, I told him I would replicate Gray's experimental cross of _Agalychnis annae_ x _A. moreletii_ and name it in his honor. _Agalychnis michaellawrencei_ has such a nice ring to it.  :Big Grin:

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## clownonfire

Ive had the chance to work with Michael recently on some projects, and by doing so, to get to know him better. Michael is passionate about frogs, but his passion is  one that is beneficial for the hobby. He truly cares and he is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to amphibians. I, like Cheri and Michael, believe that we can only maintain integrity by being thorough in our ways, and teaching/sharing the knowledge is key. Ive also read threads where Michael did not hold back, and I want to thank you personally for respecting Frog Forums more general/community oriented board.

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## bshmerlie

> Ive also read threads where Michael did not hold back, and I want to thank you personally for respecting Frog Forums more general/community oriented board.


Yes...MSNBC....thanks you Michael.   :Big Grin:

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## bshmerlie

> Working on that, I told him I would replicate Gray's experimental cross of _Agalychnis annae_ x _A. moreletii_ and name it in his honor. _Agalychnis michaellawrencei_ has such a nice ring to it.


LOL... he is such a passionate hybrid guy if I ever come across something really freaky I am so getting for him. You know a frog with three eyes or six legs or something like that. That could be his anti-hybrid mascot. He could call it Igor. :Big Grin:

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## bshmerlie

sorry couldn't resist

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## John Clare

I've closed this thread to stop people further embarrassing themselves.

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