# Frogs & Toads > Tree Frogs >  Red eyed tree frog housing+ lighting

## stat

Hello, I'm brand new to this forum, I wanted to see if maybe I could get a more educated opinion of tank sizes for 2-3 RETF's. I have an 18x18x18 live planted tank that I'm planning to let grow in for a couple months before getting any frogs, but my issue with this is with the drainage and soil layer and diy background I made, the tank volume is more like 17 gallons rather than the 23 gallons it would be empty. I had been hoping to get a trio as they supposedly do better in groups, but I'm not sure if this is enough room for 3 of them. If the tank is heavily planted, would there be enough room for 3 of them? What are some concerns with keeping 3 of them in a tank this size (are they prone to aggressive behavior if they don't have the full 25 gallons for 3 of them etc.) I'm a bit confused, when some websites say 10 gallons for a pair plus 5 gallons per extra frog is enough, where others say 10 gallons per frog is needed, or if these sizes refer to empty tank sizes and that starting out with a empty 23 is okay. If it's unsafe to put three in there I'll only get 2 though.

Also, there seems to be a lot of debate on UVB lighting for these guys. I know they're nocturnal, but many seem to believe UVB is still beneficial or even a necessity. Right now the tank is just lit up with two 26 watt 6500k CFL for the plants. The compact top they're in takes up an entire half of the screen lid, so I worry about putting another light on top of the open screen, that it will cut off too much air circulation for the frogs.

Any help would be appreciated, this will be my first time caring for frogs long term in my own home.

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## deniserothfus

I can tell you the uva and uvb are critical.  Otherwise they get MBD look that up. Mites and mold may be a problem with your set up. Red leg is a disease they can also get from environment issues. And be very aware of what may be able to get into their mouths along with their food.I just had 4 rocks removed from my mrs. Bighead yesterday. Oversights can be catastrophic and expensive.  It was 800 to get them out. And she's sore as hell. Your doing the right thing with educating yourself before you bring them home. Best of luck with your new guys

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## deniserothfus

One of the lights let's them digest food and the other one let's the body absorb the food that's what I was taught 

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## deniserothfus

They need calcium to avoid MBD as well. I lost a chameleon to that. That's when I got vet help to save my male and this where I was educated about all that.

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## deniserothfus

LLL reptile supply all of the best brands half the prices than at pet co. And better selections of everything. 

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## Amy

> Hello, I'm brand new to this forum, I wanted to see if maybe I could get a more educated opinion of tank sizes for 2-3 RETF's. I have an 18x18x18 live planted tank that I'm planning to let grow in for a couple months before getting any frogs, but my issue with this is with the drainage and soil layer and diy background I made, the tank volume is more like 17 gallons rather than the 23 gallons it would be empty. I had been hoping to get a trio as they supposedly do better in groups, but I'm not sure if this is enough room for 3 of them. If the tank is heavily planted, would there be enough room for 3 of them? What are some concerns with keeping 3 of them in a tank this size (are they prone to aggressive behavior if they don't have the full 25 gallons for 3 of them etc.) I'm a bit confused, when some websites say 10 gallons for a pair plus 5 gallons per extra frog is enough, where others say 10 gallons per frog is needed, or if these sizes refer to empty tank sizes and that starting out with a empty 23 is okay. If it's unsafe to put three in there I'll only get 2 though.
> 
> Also, there seems to be a lot of debate on UVB lighting for these guys. I know they're nocturnal, but many seem to believe UVB is still beneficial or even a necessity. Right now the tank is just lit up with two 26 watt 6500k CFL for the plants. The compact top they're in takes up an entire half of the screen lid, so I worry about putting another light on top of the open screen, that it will cut off too much air circulation for the frogs.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated, this will be my first time caring for frogs long term in my own home.


Firstly, I would only do 2 in that size tank.  An 18x18x24 would have been a much better option, as they like height, but with what you have...I'd only do 2.  They don't necessarily prefer to live in groups, they do just fine on their own, but they do just fine in a group also.  So don't worry about that if you only have 2.

UVB will always be a debate.  I do not use UVB, I use rep-cal + vitamin D supplement with all of my frogs.  I used to use UVB and have seen no changes in the health of my frogs or their behavior in the year since I stopped using UVB lighting.  There is no reason you cannot switch out your 6500k CFL's for UVB CFL's though if you're concerned.  Just keep in mind that they need to be replaced approximately every 6 months to remain effective.  

You do need space on your screen top for a good heater.  Being in Canada, and having cold winters.  This is a MUST.  On my 18x18x24, I use a 50 watt ceramic heat emitter connected to a thermostat so that they do not overheat.  Under tank heaters are not going to cut it.

A planted tank is definitely a good choice for these guys  :Smile: 

Here is a good care article - http://www.frogforum.net/content.php...nis-callidryas

Thanks for doing the research before buying these guys, that will save you a lot of hassle in the long run!

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stat

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## stat

Darn, I was hoping I wouldn't hear that the bigger tank would have been a better option  :Stick Out Tongue: . I got the tank for free when someone dumped their leopard gecko in the store I work at, since bought the gecko a more appropriate tank, and frogs have always been interesting to me. Do you think this tank will negatively effect a pair of them if its well planted? I don't like keeping animals in homes that are "good enough". Also, I keep the room they will be in at 75-77 degrees Fahrenheit year round with a plug in oil heater, is it okay if their temp is maintained through the ambient room temperature, or do they need that direct heat source? Worst case scenario I can rethink the critters that will go in here, but I really would like red eyes  :Smile:

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## deniserothfus

Please speak to a vet about your lighting. I've used uva and uvb the whole time I've had my frogs. If you look at mrs. Bighead xray you'll see how tiny their bones are and hers are straight and perfect. It's not sitting well  with me that that one person said he quit uvb and they look fine to him. Their bones twist and curve you can't see that till its too late. Reptiles look fine until they don't and it can be too late. Call a vet and ask for yourself please . 


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## deniserothfus

MBD can be stopped NOT CURED so however twisted the bones are how it's going to live for the rest of its life

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## acpart

I'm not a frog expert and don't want to start a controversy.  However, I do maintain a large number of species of geckos including many nocturnal geckos and day geckos.  All of my geckos are maintained without UV.  The nocturnal ones who don't live in planted enclosures have no lighting except the ambient lighting in the room.  Those in planted enclosures have grow-lights for the plants.  The nocturnal geckos' D3 needs are low and are met with regular dusting of feeders with Repashy Calcium Plus. Even the day geckos are maintained without UVB and with adequate amounts of Repashy dusted feeders and powdered nectar (which is, obviously rehydrated for them) which contains both calcium and vitamin D3.  This is done according to the instructions of Lean and Greg Christenson  who  are day  gecko breeders.  My day geckos are 7 and 8 years old.  I would assume that what I do for the geckos will be adequate for nocturnal tree frogs.

Aliza

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## Krispy

Wether my snakes, wtf's, retf's, firebellies(i call em bombers), beardies, or the rest of my long list of tank babies; they all have 1 65k full spectrum(grow) and 1uvb. Recently weve slowly been replacing the 65k's with led's. Take alot less power and last oh so long, but theyre mostly for the plants. The uvb is more preferance to how you keep your critters. I noticed brighter colors and better growth rates with my snakes. Im not brave enough to keep the frogs without uvb(and the wife would KILL me if anything happened to the frogs). Still, with the right supplements, it could be possible to nix the uvb. 

More preferance then anything i guess.

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## deniserothfus

I'm not gonna take a chance. I lost a female chameleon to MBD and I haven't heard 1 good reason to risk it. And if they're your wife's frogs they're not yours to risk. Sorry that was for your wife. I choose to have all  my reptiles  and my 2 frogs to have the lighting cuz MBD SUCKS

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## deniserothfus

What is the gain from not using the uvb? I'm trying to understand why people are so against them 

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## Krispy

> I'm not gonna take a chance. I lost a female chameleon to MBD and I haven't heard 1 good reason to risk it. And if they're your wife's frogs they're not yours to risk. Sorry that was for your wife. I choose to have all  my reptiles  and my 2 frogs to have the lighting cuz MBD SUCKS
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Lmao thats funny. No no i maintain every aspect and paid for every last frog. She just looks at them and talks to them like toddlers.

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monster

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## deniserothfus

Baby talk is very important too. Lol

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## Amy

Deniserothfus - It may not sit well with you that I do not use UV lighting, but trust me, I care about my frogs very much.  I have never had a frog with mbd because I supplement appropriately.  There are MANY frog owners out there that do not use uv lighting and have no problems with MBD.  Reptiles are a different animal, and I wouldn't keep a reptile without UV lighting, apples and oranges.  I would say only about 50% of frog keepers use UV lighting, and only about 50% of those use it correctly.  We do not see many cases of MBD except in those that do not supplement properly.  I use repashy + calcium, as well as repcal +Vit D.  I think this will forever be a controversy among frog owners, but my frogs are in perfect health.  Also, please do not post 4 posts in a row, it gets hard to follow you, you can click "edit" if you need to add to your post within a certain time.

Back to the original poster -- Yes, a taller tank would be better, but 2 would do well in the 18" cube.  The ambient temp being correct will work just fine for them, in fact, that's better so their dries out less quickly.  Well planted is a fantastic idea, especially for red eyes.  It helps to maintain humidity and gives them places to sleep and hide if need be.  Just keep in mind that red eyes are strictly nocturnal, mine do not wake until lights out, no matter whether I feed them or what is going on.  They also go to sleep if I try to put any red or blue "observation" lighting on the tank.  I just have to peek in with a flashlight at night and be satisfied hearing their trills  :Smile:

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deranged chipmunk, stat

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## bill

> Wether my snakes, wtf's, retf's, firebellies(i call em bombers), beardies, or the rest of my long list of tank babies; they all have 1 65k full spectrum(grow) and 1uvb. Recently weve slowly been replacing the 65k's with led's. Take alot less power and last oh so long, but theyre mostly for the plants. The uvb is more preferance to how you keep your critters. I noticed brighter colors and better growth rates with my snakes. Im not brave enough to keep the frogs without uvb(and the wife would KILL me if anything happened to the frogs). Still, with the right supplements, it could be possible to nix the uvb. 
> 
> More preferance then anything i guess.


There was a study done on the use of UV lighting on fbt's that mentioned that UV 'may' cause brighter coloration in them, but as far as UV lighting helping metabolize calcium, the study was inconclusive. The same was done with some species of darts. Although, the study on darts was more related to breeding and SLS. It was found that supplementing vitamin a was much more effective because the results from using UV were, you guessed it, inconclusive. 

Of course, you'll get those folk that say 'I use UV lighting and don't have any issues.' Of course, as long as you supplement with calcium, you shouldn't. It's the old question, is lack of evidence, evidence? But that is a philosophical question, not a scientific one. 


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Krispy, stat

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## deniserothfus

Thanks for the new info. We had an experience with MBD in 2 chameleons  our female had to be put down because her limbs were so curved she never would have been able to move correctly. The male we were able to save and stop the progression. That's when we went over all the tanks and their set ups with the vet. I know chameleons are way different than frogs . There was definitely an MBD tone to the visit because that's what was happening at the time He looked  at pics of all my tanks and said they were correct . I never want to see MBD again. It was horrific. 

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## deniserothfus

I do supplements too regularly 

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## deniserothfus

The growth rate in your snakes seems to be good evidence to me to have them . And my xray of Mrs Bighead s perfectly straight bones gives me peace of mind to keep up what I'm doing. Minus the rocks in the xray of course. My daughter put in the rocks and learned a lesson and then some. We are Soooo lucky to still have her. She just crossed her last milestone after the rock removal procedure and pooped all on her own on Saturday.  I think she saw 2 more medicine bottles and said hell no I'll do it myself. 

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## deniserothfus

We should call the study people with your faster growing snake conclusion and my straight boned frog conclusion . Maybe they need a hint.  Lol

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## Amy

> We should call the study people with your faster growing snake conclusion and my straight boned frog conclusion . Maybe they need a hint.  Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


What?  The "study" people?  Snakes grow quickly based on their diet and nutrition.  And...as I said before, reptiles and nocturnal amphibs are like comparing apples and oranges.  Different species with very different behaviors.  You might as well compare a frog to a bird.  My frogs...all 9 of them, have perfectly straight bones, no signs of MBD at all and some of them have been with me, and UV-less, since they were juveniles.  Similar results were found in the studies that were done, hence leading to the whole "inconclusive" part.  Clearly, your experience in the hobby is not that extensive, so I would ask that you, please, actually take the time and do research and fact check before offering advice and "facts" to others.

Also, just to add so people understand clearly, if you have a frog with albinism, which is fairly popular, UV WILL harm your animal and cannot be used.

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## deniserothfus

Oops that was a different person I was talking too. I'm not attacking you I promise. 

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## deniserothfus

I fact check with my vet not random people on line but  if something I learned my vet can help others that's good. Where are your facts coming other random people on line

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## deniserothfus

The last paragraph of your message is what I'm trying to understand Do people believe it to be harmful or just unnecessary.   I truly am open minded to new info. But it takes alot to override information from  my vet. 

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## Amy

> I fact check with my vet not random people on line but  if something I learned my vet can help others that's good. Where are your facts coming other random people on line
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Apparently you're not getting the whole part where we've read studies to determine whether it is necessary or not.  As stated before, many vets are not up to date on current practices...the amount of research that has been done to update our husbandry in the last 5 years alone is overwhelming.  I'm not saying not to trust your vet, but there are many more sources out there than just one person.  Instead of arguing your point as strictly fact, as you have been, you could do a little bit of your own research.  Reading studies done by researchers who have dedicated their life to learning about amphibians is not the same as talking to "other random people on the internet."  The exotic vet that I used to go to, knew less about frog care than I did.  Probably because most frog owners treat their frogs like a disposable pet and provide vets with little opportunity to learn.  I went to him simply to get prescriptions needed.  That is not uncommon.

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deranged chipmunk, Krispy, stat

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## Amy

> The last paragraph of your message is what I'm trying to understand Do people believe it to be harmful or just unnecessary.   I truly am open minded to new info. But it takes alot to override information from  my vet. 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


It IS harmful to albino frogs.  UV lighting absolutely cannot be used with them, it can cause blindness and skin issues.  I do not have any albino frogs, but I do see UV lighting as unnecessary so long as there is proper supplementation.  It will not harm a regular frog (although I have read that some bulbs can be too strong.)  Other people use the uv lights "just in case" there is a benefit.

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## deniserothfus

I'm just trying to understand the otherside . I've never had the conversation with him about not having them he said it was a good setup and after the shock of the rocks in the xray he said there's no signs of MBD and that she looked great other than the rocks. So you can imagine I felt like ok that's good I'm doing the right thing

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## deniserothfus

Thank you Lily pad that's what I was looking for . I fall into the just in case it helps. I supplement too .   I like to understand other people's decision making with their animals so I can learn new ways or learn that my ways are best for my animals. Never meant to be a jerk about any of this. I wish you and your animals the very best. And keep on teaching once you take off the edge your good at it

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## acpart

I do use UV lights with my bearded dragons, which are large diurnal reptiles.  I don't use UVB for my nocturnal geckos (or my nocturnal frogs) because the geckos, at least, are in their hides all day and would't benefit from the lights.  Also, since all the geckos are doing well, not using UBV keeps me from having to replace many UBV lights every 6 months (I have about 30 cages in total).  I would never do something harmful to my geckos (and frogs) just because I'm trying to save money, but my experiences with the day geckos over the course of a number of years convinces me that this system is working.  While I would agree that it's hard to compare amphibians and diurnal reptiles, it doesn't seem to me to be that off base to compare nocturnal amphibians and nocturnal reptiles.


Aliza

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## deniserothfus

I've been trying to understand other people's decision about the lights. Like do they believe it harmful or just unnecessary really to learn more about the topic. I never meant to get in the debate or offend or give wrong info. We all love our animals alot. No doubt. I'd die if I had to manage 30 tanks. GO YOU! 

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## acpart

Luckily for me I don't need that much sleep!  I don't think we're offending so far but having an interesting discussion.  As long as it stays that way, I'm enjoying it.

Aliza

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## deniserothfus

I'm so happy Mrs. Bigheads recovering I think it's hitting me now how grateful I am that she made it. Usually things don't have this ending. They're so fragile and resilient at the same time . This time our best efforts were enough. 

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## stat

Wow this post got busy while I was away, thank you for answering my questions though, I will probably veto the uvb in favor of more ventilation on top and stick to the two frogs  :Smile:

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## Diver

It's amazing how different the thinking about UVB seems to be on each side of the Atlantic. Over here denying almost ANY captive animal UVB is considered outdated and in some cases almost if not entirely abusive! There are very few serious keepers or breeders who don't use it here these days. When I first started out there was no such thing available to freely purchase, we're very lucky that that's not the case any more.
There's a huge amount of anecdotal evidence among keepers as well as a number of studies that demonstrate the benefits of UVB. We should be trying as closely as possible to recreate the natural environment for our charges and skimping on something as fundamentally important as sunlight for the sake of the cost of a bulb really is unnecessary and quite against the grain of modern husbandry techniques. 
With the exception of animals that genetically would be harmed by UVB (albinos for example), PLEASE provide it along with adequate cover and shelter for the animal to self-regulate. I can absolutely vouch for my own observations in the difference that it makes to the well-being of captive tree frogs.

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## deniserothfus

I use uvb I will continue to use uvb I have tree frogs good luck to all the frogs who's owners only have inconclusive studies for their info. I found alot of studies that say yes to uvb even one Dr. accidently learned this with frogs he was using in a lab that had no sunlight or uvb and was surprised to see severe mbd. I don't know what people are thinking I'm not changing . Good luck to all

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## deniserothfus

Thank you for info it's a crazy topic with no supporting data but people on here ferociously fight against uvb beyond stupid and an inconclusive study is called a waste of time. And that's all they have these bs studies I have an xray of my frogs bones and they're good .  Call me crazy but I listen to my vet who's a doctor maybe they save the studies with conclusions for the people paying for their educations . I would think the inconclusive studies are a dime a dozen online to a bunch of people at home on their couch. I utilize my vet. Regardless of the money.

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## deniserothfus

Message deleted.

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## deniserothfus

I hope everybody can see our conversation  I was attacked right away on here for using uvb and never even figured out how to navigate this forum. 

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## Lija

Sorry everybody, have been away, life was a bit crazy. 

now regarding UVB. while it might be beneficial for red eye tree frogs to have in on, it is not needed. Like most tree frogs they are are adapted to live in low to no sun light conditions in a wild and do not need additional source of UVB for their metabolism, however they will be just fine if you have it on. 
Beaded dragons, some tree frogs are different and do need UVB, and high spectrum at that. Different species have different requirements. OP asked about red eyes, and I believe he got his questions answered. 


There is no need to argue, but if you do want to prove your point you are welcome to do so in respectful manner in a separate thread. You are welcome to share your scientific data, nobody knows everything ( even vets  :Smile:  and personally I would love to hear new data I might not be aware yet.

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Krispy, LilyPad, stat

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## deniserothfus

Thank you I about gave up on this forum . Hearing intelligence was much needed. I'm not chiming in on lights anymore but you definitely need to innocent animals can be hurt if the owners are getting less than proper advice. You have good info and you use it well. Thanks again. Sorry to any kids on the forum for being rude to a member. 

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## Diver

I must have missed the arguments, but no bad thing. Forums are a great place to exchange views, opinions and information, but it doesn't need to descend to bad feeling. I'm happy to share the thinking from over here in the UK and Europe for discussion because like it or not it seems to be us keepers who are at the cutting edge of animal husbandry. If we wait for peer reviewed scientific articles to tell us how to care for our frogs, we'll be waiting a long time, there isn't a large amount of funding being given to scientists in that particular field!
Red Eyed Tree Frogs actually do receive a lot of sunlight. Despite being well adapted to low light conditions (they are nocturnal after all!), they don't retreat to caves during the day and receive UVB from where they get their D3 (they don't receive it from their diet). There is also more to it than just D3, it's accepted that colours are more vibrant, behaviour is more active and breeding more readily achieved when UVB is provided. As I said, over here this thinking is the norm.
While it's true that it's possible to keep Red Eyes without UVB, it's also possible to keep them in a foot cubed box with no leaves or branches and just a paper towel for substrate, but it's this kind of meeting bare minimum requirements that we should be leaving in the distant past.
Modern husbandry should mean providing absolutely everything in our power to recreate the most natural and enriched habitats for our charges, not merely letting them just survive.
To this end, whenever anyone asks the question 'Should I provide UVB?', the correct response should always be an unequivocal 'Yes!'

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## deniserothfus

Thank you 

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## stat

I think this thread may have turned too argumentative. No one has the exact answers on what way of keeping them is best, and everyone will say their way is the best, because everyone tries their best to give their critters the best care possible. It's clear though that both ways of keeping this species specifically *(*A. callidryas, irregardless of what works with other species), work successfully. I do believe its a bit much to compare lack of uvb for a nocturnal animal (when d3 supplementation is required no matter what) to keeping an animal that instinctively hides under leaves all day in a bare bones tank. I work in a pet store, and have seen how people will dump us with unwanted animals who were just surviving in their care, but I think the evidence is more compelling for them being perfectly healthy with or without uvb, and that putting funds into a live planted tank with a clean filtered water source and drainage layer is of greater importance for this particular frog (especially in my case, where screen space is limited already and lack of air flow can create a better environment for infection to set in). I certainly respect your opinion though, it's clear you care a great deal about animals and I do agree that uvb is safer than no uvb, but for me access to fresh circulating air is a big concern (I've seen red leg before, and am extremely cautious of it occurring).

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deranged chipmunk, Krispy, LilyPad

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## Diver

It's true that nobody has the exact answers, to just about anything in life unfortunately! I am however contributing to this thread to let people know the established thinking among the vast majority of keepers and breeders over here.
The UVB debate has been put to bed. It's available, it's necessary and is a standard part of husbandry.  UVB has no effect on air circulation, so that is not an issue. 
Where UVB is provided, D3 supplementation is NOT given. Part of the reason to not rely on supplements is that you can't dose them. For calcium that doesn't matter because you can't overdose on calcium. You can however overdose on D3, so how do you know you're giving the right amount?
Frogs are able to detect UVB and so are able to self regulate their intake. I have over 200 Red Eyes and when I look at them during the day some are on top of leaves, some are underneath. Millions of years of evolution is a wonderful thing   :Wink:   Don't confuse nocturnal activity for not having a relationship to the sun, these animals get their D3 in the wild from nowhere else.

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## deniserothfus

Diver your my favorite person. I think so many inconclusive studies have been done it's created alot of confusing information to be spread . Until there's a study with good results I think why take the chance. My frog swallowed 4 rocks and if she had Mbd they wouldn't have been able to palpate them out. She would have broke. I've looked up studies and can't find anything supporting no uvb. Frogs get uvb from the sun even if they sleep under leaves.  Side note my daughter put in the rocks.

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## stat

Again, thank you for your opinion (it is an opinion), but it is not "put to bed", it is your opinion, and you are starting to hit the point where you are dismissing other peoples experience, many with as much as you I'm sure. The air circulation is an issue for me as I only have half a screen top left, and classic dome fixtures would take up at least half of the remaining space, and bar lights that are available to me would cover even more. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but stagnant air and hygiene is a top priority for me, red leg is truly awful.
I'm asking you to understand that your opinion is not THE right way, it is one of multiple right ways. I'm going to be going to an expo in a couple months with breeders who use and who don't use uvb, testimonials and conditions of their animals does not vary based on lighting, if something is the norm in the UK and yields good results it doesn't mean North American norms result in sub par results.

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## deniserothfus

Thank you to . Maybe at the expo you'll get some info on it that you can bring back and share. My worry is mbd . Is red leg uvb related. I assumed it was a mold or fungi type problem. 

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## Diver

I mean that over here in Europe/UK the debate has been put to bed. The air circulation really isn't an issue, remove one of your 26 watt 6500k CFL bulbs and replace it with a 5% UVB bulb. Air circulation unaffected.   :Wink: 

With so many reasons to provide UVB that have now been shared, could you share your reasons why you think denying it is better for the animals?

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## stat

Replacing with a 13w 5% rated at 5000k will result in less plant growth is my primary reason, the room they are in is very poorly lit (dim at best during the day) and the plants are growing quite slowly as is, despite being in there for quite a while and having these plant species grow well in other well lit areas of my house. Maintaining the plants at a larger size (being able to give the frogs natural dense foliage, better humidity levels, absorbing nitrates from waste etc) is a priority for me, I'm already looking into 7500k and up bulbs to try to get the plants up to that dense cover. The main argument I've seen for why uvb is necessary is mbd and providing a more natural environment. Most other information sources I've consulted suggest supplementing with calcium, d3 and a multivitamin whether uvb is used or not. I am skeptical that a uvb bulb should be used in place of that, as they are in no way as strong as sunlight. Bearded dragon owners who use some of the strongest available uvb lights on the market still supplement with calcium and d3. This practice seems standard for animals with uvb requirements all across the spectrum. Due to this, and the success of many others, it seems reasonable to assume that calcium+d3 supplements is a reliable and safe way to keep red eyes healthy, whereas uvb done incorrectly (my tank wont be set up the same way yours are) with minimal/no supplements could cause issues. My current opinion is that calcium+d3 powder should be seen as the requirement, and uvb as the extra, rather than other way around. The powder seems a much more direct way to get those vitamins directly into the frog (assuming feeding is done correctly), uvb seems more difficult to determine if it is putting out enough until it is too late. But hey, maybe my opinion will change once I get them home, or I'll give the uvb a shot, notice a difference, and if so I am more than willing to admit I was wrong, but in the mean time calcium+d3 and a multivitamin will meet their needs, based on the experience of many.

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## Diver

I don't know where you have got that information from, but I can assure you it's quite untrue. Luckily there are scientific studies available for example:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20206712

Also, your plant growth won't be adversely affected by changing the bulb out.

Clearly despite being a novice keeper you have decided to ask for advice, then only hear what you want to hear. I can't force you to provide the best possible living conditions for your animals, but I would at least like your decisions to be based upon the correct information. The information is all out there, you obviously don't want to take my word for it, perhaps I could at least encourage you to do your own research?

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## stat

I am considering your information as well as others,* I'm not just hearing what I want, I want what is best for my animals and am doing my research months before even looking at buying*, I'm just not hearing information that indicates uvb is as necessary as you make it out to be. Your study is for bearded dragons, even most new owners know that uvb is a requirement for them, they are diurnal lizards from Australia, very different from a nocturnal frog from central america. But I do find it interesting that that little uvb lighting maintains a beardies d3 levels, but mind you they are basking animals, finding a nice high point to sit under the light, and are adapted to absorbing uvb and producing d3 that way. The abstract also doesn't indicate the uvb concentration used (unless I missed it, but I don't have access to the full study either). Again though, I asked for advice, got a good variety of opinions, have done my own research on both opinions presented in this forum post, I'm not sure what else to say other than that you seem to be in disbelief that someone could come to a researched conclusion other than your own, which again, it has been proven through practice as well as studies that RETF don't require supplemental uvb. I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge that a vast number of people have great success without it, including other posters on this topic, whose advice I have gone with over yours. That doesn't mean I haven't listened to you, I had to pick one or the other didn't I? It's insulting to the other forum posters as well as many successful breeders to say they are keeping their animals based on incorrect information.
Also, plants tend to slow down under 5000k, at least in my experience. The room is dim, and growth has been much slower than I'm used to, even at 26w 6500k. Even if I bought all new plants that were larger, I've killed many a plant by taking a well established plant and moving it into dimmer lighting.

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## deniserothfus

Mbd isn't easily seen in frogs it affects their jaws and palate it makes it spongy as well as the rest of the bones. So if you choose to just supplement check their jaw line regularly.  I'm super grateful that my Mrs Bighead had good bones because it made it possible to avoid an incision to remove the rocks. When I had to give her meds I felt her jaw line and it was strong and firm. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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## Krispy

This thread got ugly for a few lol. But alot of good points and info out there. As priorly mentioned, personal preferance is the big ticket. Like me, do i need uvb on every tank in our little zoo? No. Do i prefer and personally think it helps, yes. These are choices we must all make as owners. 

 No one likes a rebuttle that pops their bubble. How did lija, moster, and chipmunk put it when i joined.... ah yes, the proverbial 'grain of salt'. Never argued, just questioned and listened... 

Many people have success with just a supplement, alot of us like the additional safegaurd of the lights. There are so many sides of the uvb debate we may never really have 100% conclusive answers.

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stat

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## stat

I think that's a good conclusion to what was supposed to be a short Q&A  :Smile:  I think I'll leave it at that and remove myself from further discussion here. I appreciate all of your opinions and advice though.

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## Amy

Let's keep in mind that there are varying and ever changing opinions on what may be the "best possible care."  It comes as a result of personal experiences, reading studies and reports, and yes...even discussions with 'random people online.'   I used to run by a very strict guideline of what MUST be done when caring for frogs.  I understand now that there are many ways to create healthy and stress-free environments for our frogs.  I have only been in the hobby for around 5 years, and just the way care routines have changed in that time period is astounding.  In this hobby, we are all learning EVERY DAY in many different ways.  No one has the perfect care routine.  I do think that this would be a good thought line for everyone to follow.

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deranged chipmunk, Krispy, stat

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