# General Topics > Food, Feeders, Live, Frozen, Culturing, etc >  Dermestids / Cleaner Crews

## Crystal

I was sold (and given) cups of these under the name of cleaner crews.  They say they're_dermestids_ and meal worms, but I've never seen a hairy looking bug, or a full-grown meal worm, just beetles and tiny worms.  It kept my cricket bin from getting stinky, so when I used up last of crickets a while ago, I transferred cleaner bugs and their larvae into baby roach bin, where I already had a cleaner crew.  Lately, as I'm using up roaches, the beetles were outnumbering them, and I bought more crickets and transferred some back to that bin.  Put some into roach breeding bin, too, where I also already had a cleaner crew.  Earlier today I used up the baby roaches and was aghast at how many little worms were in roach bin.  That was just what I could see.  In the corner with debris, there were more, and more beetles.  I put some, with beetles, into roach breeding bin, and some (including "furniture") into cricket bin), then the rest with remaining debris, I poured into a deli cup, put a lid on it, and placed it inside of the small tote, inside 2 more totes, (almost as if I were afraid of them, but I just don't want any escapees).  

What the hell do i have here?  Are they worth saving?  to me, beetles are beetles, and altho the pics of dermestid beetles I looked up look like what I have, again, beetles just look like beetles to me.  Altho some were red a while back.  The worms just look like tiny meal worms.  The larger ones look darker, but none have ever gotten very big at all, and I've had them for months.  

Maybe they are flour beetles?  And why don't the mealworms grow?

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## Gail

Can't help you with your questions, but I would love to know where to get some of these cleaners.  These bug bins can get pretty stinky and I HATE cleaning out their bins.  Would rather clean cat litter box with bare hands.

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## Crystal

> Can't help you with your questions, but I would love to know where to get some of these cleaners.  These bug bins can get pretty stinky and I HATE cleaning out their bins.  Would rather clean cat litter box with bare hands.


Hah!  They say that with these, you don't NEED to clean bug bins.  Poop gathers, but I think the bugs lay their eggs in it.  They sort of tear apart pieces of egg crate too, just little bits, like fluff.  I got them from my roach people, West Coast Roaches.  They're in NC (oh hey so are you!) so dunno why they call themselves west coast...  their old website with info is Live Dubia Roaches WestCoastRoaches Live Dubia Roach Reptile feeder insects and supplies  and weirdly there are still payment links there.  But their new storefront is Cleaner Crew.  The prices and selection are all wonky.  I thought they'd phased out the old site completely, and I know they're doing most of their business on facebook now, in the form of auctions.  Their main page is https://www.facebook.com/westcoastroaches but they're starting to do auctions in a group (starting all kinds of things lately) https://www.facebook.com/groups/West...rsandSupplies/  Some people who have bought them say they see nothing, that they must be dead, but mine have multiplied.  I left a post on their page asking about it.  If I knew what exactly I have, I'd send some to you.  I know they're harmless to the bugs.  But I'm not sure what they DO exactly.  I don't see anything furry looking like a dermestid, just beetles and teeny meal worms.  Some of the beetles were red, so I'm wondering if they are flour beetles.  Neither the beetles nor the larva can climb out of containers, and none fly, so not worried about them getting everywhere.  

Regardless, my crickets have never had the offensive odor people talk about (but I never have hundreds or thousands at a time), and dubia roaches just plain don't smell very much.  

If I can figure out what they are and if they're actually doing some good, I'd be more than happy to send some to you.  Cuz right now, I just don't know what to do with them.

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## Gail

I have 2,000 red runner roaches right now, and they can get a little stinky if you don't keep the bin clean, but not like the crickets do.  I'll have to check out their site when I get home from work tonite.  Thanks.

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## Jeff

Dermestid beetles and their larvae do exactly what you'd expect as 'cleaner' bugs. They're scavengers that feed on dead or decaying organic matter. They won't mess with the frass (poo) so much, but they will devour dead insects and exuvium/molted skins. They shouldn't touch living insects.

I keep a few around... they come with the territory. If you keep feeder insects long enough eventually a random fuzzy larva will turn up in one of your cricket, roach, mealworm or other feeder orders. The adults are often capable of flight as well, and may randomly enter your bins if they've set up residence in your home from the outdoors. They're used pretty frequently by commercial suppliers to keep the colonies cleaner and more sanitary. Most of the smell that perpetuates in roach bins is from death and not so much frass for most species (your lats Gail will always have a little funk with them, but far better than crickets), so they do keep the smell down to some extent in large enough numbers. You don't want want them utterly swarming everything in there, however. A small population is adequate.

Edit:  Also. Roach frass only needs tending too when you feel it is necessary. I usually let my bins go for a year or more and allow a couple on inches of frass accumulation. Frass is OK (for roaches)- tons of dead bodies aren't okay, and generally justify a thorough bin cleaning.

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## Crystal

I knew this guy would know!!  Maybe I should get a pic of what I have to find out if there're still dermistids in there, or just teeny meal worm bugs.  From their original site, about their cleaner crews: "Using science to naturally clean your feeder colony bins is far easier than daily death removals, gnats and weekend cleanings. Our cleaner crews use two species of insects that naturally remove all you uneaten excess chows and consumes any dead you may acquire within your colonies. Our cleaner crews will colonize safely within your Dubia bins and keep them clean and efficient.Each cleaner crew cup contains Dermistid (taxidermy beetles) beetles, larvae and eggs combined with mealworms. The dermistid beetles consume dead insects and small particles of fruit and vegetables. The mealworms consume fragments of ground chows. Our cleaner crews offer maximum cleaning agents to ensure all the waste from your colonies are consumed naturally. Packed with with their natural food in sealed plastic cups."
Too many baby worms for me to look too closely at the excess ones, for what the beetles looked like.  Last thing I'd want is to drop them, cuz then I'd NEVER find all the baby worms.  I guess I could have just left them in empty baby roach bin, but when I get new roaches, I'd still have to remove them to control how many little bugs I had in there.
The red beetles, were they flour beetles?  Silly people never answered my query.  I might assume I could have some dermistids left, since I've never found dead anything (except crickets in 1st colony, but they looked like they'd been mummified).

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## Jeff

Sorry about that Crystal - pictures would be great! = )

I'd say the red beetles were likely adult mealworm beetles (Tenebrio molitor); it isn't that uncommon to see the occasional red specimen that is hypopigmented. So yes, most likely your adult flour/darkling beetles. If you can get pictures up, we can definitely be confident.

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## Crystal

> Sorry about that Crystal - pictures would be great! = )
> 
> I'd say the red beetles were likely adult mealworm beetles (Tenebrio molitor); it isn't that uncommon to see the occasional red specimen that is hypopigmented. So yes, most likely your adult flour/darkling beetles. If you can get pictures up, we can definitely be confident.


Was tough to get good pics at 1st as they kept running around on cardboard trying to hide.  Some of them were a darker red, like a burgundy  maybe offspring of the tomato red ones, dunno.    So I gathered them and some worms from cricket bin and roach bin plus my surplus cup and put them in this tiny plastic cup.  It used to hold jack daniel's bbq sauce from sat night's leftovers.  


One of the beetles decided to use his wings so I whacked him back down into cup with camera lens.  You can see he still had them out and was buzzing around for a bit:  He's since put them back but I can see that he has them overhanging his bum.  The only one old enough to be able to use his wings, I guess.  

So if these are mini meal worm beetles, (those worms never get much bigger than pictured), aren't they basically useless?  All they'd do is eat the food meant for bugs and procreate.  I gave them an exoskeleton and a half and they're just trying to burrow into it for cover, plus a cricket orange cube and some oats.  Plan to watch and see what they do.  Creepy little buggers.  

Would they be a safe feeder for my toad, to get rid of them?  I know their shells are hard, but I'd think outside, he (or she) would be eating things like this.  So I'm wondering if I can offer them to him.  Or her.  

Here are some pics of my roaches, just because.  I guess it's true that 1st time pregnancies can take 6 weeks, cuz yesterday was 28 days after I spotted 1st ootheca.  Oh well. 
She's like "are you kidding me?"  But Mouse was just watching the others and she doesn't eat bugs anyway, just mews at me and paws them:Good looking fella: 
This is a toilet paper tube, and a community meeting spot, I guess: and the other side.

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## Jeff

These all look like darkling beetles to me, either Tenebrio molitor or Tenebrio obscurus. The easier way for you to make a quick reference to tell if you have dermestid beetles is by the tips of the antennae; your dermestids will have what appear to be little clubs while darkling beetles have very thin uniform antennae. 

Personally, I've never heard of using mealworms as a cleanup crew. I'd imagine they'd simply use the same resources as the roaches like you suggest. Dermestids may nibble on old scraps and moisture sources, but mealworms will be feeding almost exclusively on the same stuff as the roaches. I could maybe see them being useful in bins that have a lot of food debris scattered throughout the entire bin, making things smellier and increasing the odds of flies and whatnot setting up residence, but I've never actually used them. I think Dermestids, isopods, and springtails are the best cleaner crews you'll ever find for most purposes.

The beetles are "okay" to feed to some herps - and beetles have an important role as a food source in nature for many species, but they are very heavily scleritized and can be a burden on the animal as a result of all of that armor. I would only feed them to a larger herp who could readily crush them up; they are certainly an impaction risk in smaller frog species who will fare better feeding on the larvae.

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yoshimi

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## Crystal

Dunno why I only sometimes get email notifications.  Anyhow, that's what I figured.  I worry enough about him eating meal worms, not comfortable feeding him a beetle, even if it's little.  
Have a total of 3 regular darkling beetles in beetle bin as of today.  Woke up and one was already out and I watched one break free of it's casing.  So neat.  Then a few hours later, another was out and wiggling it's legs.  They're stupid and keep flipping onto their backs.  Hope they get the hang of it so they mate.  Hard to mate or eat when you can't even turn yourself over.  Or so I've found.  
Thanks for your help!

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## Treesniffer

I have had success calming down odor by using FeederSource's Odor Control, a synthetic soil consisting mostly of very finely ground charcoal and vermiculite; about the size of ground coffee. Substance is spread on the bottom of the roach bin. It also makes the Pill Bugs happy while they scurry to eat the frass. I believe the Derestids will thrive in this environment and work with the Pill Bugs to eliminate stink.  Feeder Source

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## Insects By Ready Reptile Feeders

I know this thread is a bit old but I saw a few unanswered questions and of course I cultivate and offer For Sale Roach Bin Cleaner Crews.  In these "Cleaner Crews"  I offer two forms of larvae and two types of beetles from two species.  The first species is indeed dermistidae.  The second species are a special form of mealworm that is tinier than common ones and hard to Find.  Now, the Dermestid Beetles & Larvae Eat Flesh from only the dead roaches or crickets.  The mealworm larvae and their adult stage beetles will eat the excess grains before they turn moldy and become a danger to your roach or cricket colony. They do not compete or take food away from your roaches as they are mainly out of the way and eating stray foodstuffs  Because of the life cycle of these larvae and beetles there will always be more larvae than adult beetles as the beetles only live a few weeks and lay eggs.  It is the larval form that does most of the eating flesh and excess grain.  You will notice between 10-15 times more wriggling larvae than beetles.

My stock of Dermestid and  Roach Bin Cleaner Crews are free from invasive species such as mites, red flour beetles or red leg ham beetles which can cause your cleaner crews or dermestids especially to falter as they are outcompeted and eggs are destroyed.

The beetles are safe to use as occasional feeders and as Jeff said not as much for smaller species.  However as stated prior these species most often exist iun their larval form which is either a tiny mealworm or a tiny soft larvae, that is useful for stimulating frogs to prey on future live feeders.

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