# Frogs & Toads > Tree Frogs >  Giant Waxy Monkey Frog help.

## Diver

Hi everyone, I wonder if I could ask for some advice? 
 I managed to purchase three Phyllomedusa bicolor from Hamm on 14th of March (quite a rarity over here!)
 I bought them from a Czech dealer who said that they were wild-caught (of course) and he had them since before last Christmas and had treated them with antibiotics and they were feeding on crickets. (Obviously only his word for this). They appear in good condition with no visible wounds or lesions and apparently in good health.
 The issue is since I got them home, they haven't moved or even opened their eyes with almost no exception. There's 2 large (probable female) and one smaller (probable male). I would ordinarily put this behaviour down to the stress of relocating, but there comes a point when you think they are going to starve themselves to death if it continues much longer.
 The smaller individual was on the floor of the vivarium the other morning, eyes open and covered in substrate (eco-earth). I took him over to the water bowl and cleaned him off and let him sit in there (in case it was water he was looking for). He climbed out after a minute or two but is very unsteady and weak looking. I held a cricket in front of him but of course he showed to interest. He was then moving around in this unsteady fashion looking distressed and like he might fall at any minute. He died later that day. In desperation (and against the advice of care sheets as to correct humidity) that night I heavily misted the vivarium, absolutely soaked it (as if a tropical storm had passed through) to my surprise the remaining two woke up and started waxing themselves. They then moved around the vivarium and quite possibly fed although I didn't see this (crickets and locusts are present at all times). Since then they have gone back to this apparently dormant state but seem to be getting thinner. I've been varying the humidity and have tried soaking again but this has had no further effect.
 Not sure what to do for the best, I considered a vet, but it would be considerable extra stress (which might the problem in the first place) and there isn't anything obviously medically wrong. That and the only herp vet anywhere near I have my doubts about (but I'll start another thread on that!)
 They are in a 200cm x 70cm x 70cm vivarium with humidity at 60% and a temperature gradient of 30C and the top to 22C at the bottom. The room they are in is not used and very quiet at all times.
 Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!


Many thanks,


Jason.

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## Lija

Need more info, based on what you said so far - you need basking spot at about 32-34C during a day. Humidity is a bit too high as well, however bicolors can tolerate a bit higher humidity then waxies, you will need to keep it under 50, 60 is ok occasionally. 

Do you have uvb? If so how strong?

pics of the frogs are needed, not getting exactly what antibiotics were used and why. You need to get their poop tested. WC will always have a heavy parasite load, it's needs to be fixed asap in captivity.

vivarium - can't see, it's it glass or mesh?

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## Diver

Hi Lija,

 Thanks for the response. The vivarium is glass except for the top which is mesh. There's a basking light and a 2ft 5% tube up there along with a ceramic heater and moonlight bulbs on a thermostat. There are also heat mats attached to the outside of the rear wall low down, again thermostatically controlled.
 Humidity is controlled by a repti-fogger on a humidistat. I set it at 60% after referring to these care sheets: 

How to Care for the Giant Waxy Monkey Tree Frog
Phyllomedusa bicolor care sheet - talk to the frog
MonkeyFrogs.com - Phyllomedusine Species List
Giant Bicolor Monkey Tree Frog Care - JABBERWOCK REPTILESJABBERWOCK REPTILES

I've turned the fogger off for tonight so I'll see how low the humidity goes. What do you think would be the correct level to aim for would be?
I'll get some photos of the actual animals in the morning. 
Poop might be a problem - I haven't seen any yet!

Thanks again for taking the time to help!

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## Diver

Here's some photos of the guys themselves:























Having turned off the humidifier and added a fan blowing gently downward last night, the humidity has dropped below 50%. There was movement, the frog near the top of the cage has moved down to half way where the other one has been sitting for days. Maybe to get away from the breeze? Unfortunately it seems I didn't switch my camera on to record last night so I don't know how much activity there was apart from this relocation. I'll make sure to set it tonight.

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## Lija

The biggest concern here is your cage, it doesn't provide enough air flow. Stagnant air will kill them even if everything else is fine, but I think for your smaller one, the one that died, that was an cause. I think he was already sick and stressed out. Bigger females sometimes bully poor guys too, especially if kept in not exactly oroperly conditions and you don't know how the seller kept them before. My point is I don't think anything you did or didn't do could have changed the outcome. 

it is a modified fish tank , right? If so, you can substitute one side with all mesh? 

skip the fogger all together, no need for it. A spray once a week or a few days a week is sufficient, have a water bowl, they will go soak up they feel the need. 

Dont expect much of movement lol these are waxies, well , the giant ones, but they all are the same. They take a word lazy to the whole new level lol sometimes they are too lazy to even open their eyes... Later when they get used to the environment, try very gently to move sleeping frog to your finger.... I bet it won't notice, and if it would it'll be too lazy to wake up lol very funny.

they look healthy, the 4th pic from the top is a female. Keep looking for a poop  :Smile:  unfortunately you put them in naturalistic tank.... Is there any way to change soil to papertowels? It will help with see the poop.... And you will need to remove everything anyway when you are going to treat them. Unless the seller meant antiparasitic treatment, not antibiotics. 

Are they eating?

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## irThumper

Just wondering, as I have no Waxie experience, but is it normal for Waxies to sit hunched like that?

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## The Frog Keeper

> Just wondering, as I have no Waxie experience, but is it normal for Waxies to sit hunched like that?


yes lol

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## irThumper

Good to know that's normal!  :Wink:  I was reading about, I think it was Chytrid, recently (might have been red leg, but don't think so) and the article mentioned a constant "hunched position" as a sign.  :EEK!:

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## Diver

This morning's update:  I've removed the fogger and the fan has been set to switch on and off at random times to improve airflow. The cage is actually a shower enclosure with double glazed sides and a mesh roof. I can easily replace the front door with a screen door if this is the way to go although the humidity is now at 45%. My only concern is that pretty much all the care sheets I've looked at seem to recommend 60% (with one I just found relating to a zoo where they are kept at 65%). While they are waxies, unlike sauvagii they are not from the dry Chacoan region, and the waxy adaptation in bicolor may be more to do with being able to withstand the breezy conditions in the upper rainforest canopy. An area where the frog can move in and out of at will and tolerate these dryer conditions for longer while still able to move back to the more humid conditions lower down.
 Anyway, that's just a thought and clearly these frogs can be kept in dry conditions without harm either way but presumably only if they are descending to a water source at night to hydrate. The two I have do NOT appear to be doing this or eating at present.
 I've been using a video camera at night to monitor their behaviour, but a tape only lasts for 90 mins so nothing was certain, however I bought yesterday a ccty system with hard drive so I can now record a full night and watch it on fast forward to see what's happening. I've just done this and can confirm that last night they did not use the water bowl and they did not feed. There was some slight, brief movement, but this seemed to be relocation to possibly being nibbled by crickets (I keep a bowl of cricket food in there to help prevent this).
 Just to stress, I am not concerned that as a species they don't move around much, this may or may not be the case naturally. My concern is that mine don't move at all to hydrate or feed. 
 I'll remove the substrate today and replace with paper towels to see if any pop shows up.
 The slight movement last night enabled me to get some slightly better photos, they do appear dryer to me and one of them seems to have some skin partially sloughed and stuck:



















 Incidentally Lija, what is the give away that makes the one in that fourth photo down female? And what do you think about the other one gender-wise?

 Thanks again for all input!

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## Lija

> Good to know that's normal!  I was reading about, I think it was Chytrid, recently (might have been red leg, but don't think so) and the article mentioned a constant "hunched position" as a sign.



That is definitely normal lol

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## Lija

Need pic that would show the profile of the frog, the line from the nose down the chin, not sideways or the angle, but like 4th pic. Be back on that. In females that line goes straight down like in that pic, in males it goes on an angle, chin is visibly more out.

dont like the excess shredded skin on one of them.

ok, can you the following , do electrolyte bath, 10 parts of water: 1 part of unflavoured pedyalite or whatever else you have in stores. Any pediatric unflavoured electrolyte solution would do. Keep in a bath no higher then frogs chin for 20 min. Warning.... They will hate every second of it! 
The bath will help them with water exchange and will make them feel better after they're past the fact of a bath itself lol but do up at night, when the lights are off.

humidity, yes they need higher humidity then waxies, but it has to go with excellent airflow. Very similar to chameleons.

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## irThumper

Diver... a converted shower stall and a froggy surveillance system?? Man, you are hard core... I love it!  :Big Grin:

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## Diver

> Diver... a converted shower stall and a froggy surveillance system?? Man, you are hard core... I love it!


Well I knew these were going to be difficult and I'm prepared to do absolutely anything to give them the best chance possible. From the research I'd done I knew a large enclosure was needed, I wasn't prepared for the complete lack of movement or any apparent will to live hence the surveillance system to remove and question or assumption about their activities.
Unfortunately last night's footage reveals that one didn't move a muscle and the other moved about 6 inches from the stalk she was sitting on to a piece of moss on the tree trunk at 6 this morning. Not good. Still no water or food being taken.
I have turned the fogger back on this morning to get the humidity back up to 60% as they're clearly not hydrating themselves. I've also changed the timer on the fan to come on less frequently. I'm heading to the pharmacy this morning to see what I can buy for an electrolyte bath (we don't have Pedyalite over here).

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## Diver

OK, tracked down some unflavoured electrolyte and the frogs had their 20 minute bath. They weren't energetic and fell back asleep without much of a struggle. I'll monitor them for the next couple of days but if no food is taken I'm think I'm going to have to consider force feeding  :Frown:

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## Diver

Time for an update! Overall, good news I think, they're both still alive in any case. Lija's suggestion of an electrolyte bath seemed to work well. The footage over the next few days showed activity - not a huge amount, but perhaps more like what I would expect. I haven't actually seen feeding, but it's possible as there are a number of places in the vivarium not covered by the camera so that's inconclusive.
The only small worry was yesterday morning after the lights came on I found the slightly smaller individual wondering around the floor looking emaciated and dehydrated. I went to grab the things I needed for another electrolyte bath but by the time I came back he/she had found the water bowl and was sitting in it so I poured the electrolyte solution in there instead. I didn't think he would last the day as he looked really unwell but to my surprise when I came home from work I found him sitting on the edge of the bowl looking really good again:



I didn't take a 'before' photo, but trust me, he looked really bad.
He hasn't moved a muscle since then and is still perched on the water bowl this morning 24 hours later. The other one also hasn't moved for a couple of nights:



Really hard to tell what's going on with these guys. When in the roosting position, they both look really well (and quite chubby), but when walking around they look very thin and under nourished. I think it's clear that they are struggling to stay hydrated so for the moment I've switched the fan off completely and maintaining the humidity at 60% with the fogger and misting to see how we go. Feeding-wise it's possible they are eating and then sleeping for extended periods afterwards which I believe is normal behaviour? I'm going to try and set further cameras up to see if I can shed some light on this.

Incidentally, as far as sexing is concerned. I was aware of the nose profile method with sauvagii, but I didn't know that applied to bicolor too. Here's a better shot of the profile of the slightly smaller one:



To my untrained eye, looks like maybe I have one of each?

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## Diver

Still struggling with these guys. They look constantly dehydrated to me. I gave them another electrolyte bath a few days ago after which the larger one sought out the higher of the two water bowls in the vivarium and soaked herself for a fair while afterwards. The smaller one just went back to sleep on the leaf I put him on until this morning when I found him on the floor looking unwell again and with partially sloughed skin. I gave him another electrolyte bath and put him back and this time this one sought out a water bowl and got in for a soak:











Currently the fogger is set at 60%, the fan comes on for 15 mins three times a day and the automatic mister comes on for 45 seconds three times a day. The vivarium is big and the screen area is large so it's pretty dry in there (never any condensation). Can I possibly be keeping them too dry? Is that even likely with this species under these conditions? Really open to suggestions!

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## Lija

They look perfectly happy and healthy to me and yep, the pic of the one on your hand is a boy  :Smile: 
 they don't look too skin either  :Smile: 
do they poop? You need to send it to do a fecal test and treat them after.

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Diver

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## Xavier

Also, you could make/buy an arboreal water dish

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## The Frog Keeper

They look fine. I have had my 4 for a year now and had a rough start with them also, it took 4 months before they settled in and acted normal. They wouldn't eat on their own I had to force feed then they wouldn't poop, I had to also give electrolyte baths, at least yours don't have any wounds, mine were covered in them so on top of everything I had to treat those as well. They aren't too skinny, they do look thinner when they move around, I have one female that looks skinny but eats the same as the other female that looks really fat, they both move around the same amount so I guess some can be slimmer than others. I also have a male who is the smallest length wise but he is really fat and you would think he was a gravid female!(he's definitely not as he has called before) about the humidity issue... you don't have to worry about them being too dry, I think I mentioned it in a PM to you, I don't mist mine hardly ever, They have 2 x 75w heat lamps (exo terra swamp glo) and 1 x 35W Sun glo exo terra spot light the perches are about 12 inches below these bulbs. I also have a heat cable running underneath the tank as well. It gets about 28-32 degrees C in there and would be dry about 30-40%. I have read a lot that links higher humidity to health issues in these frogs. Because your enclosure is very tall you should try and incorporate a pool of water of some sort in the middle section of the tank like it was suggested. Don't go over board on these electrolyte baths either, everytime you handle these guys their stress levels go up and it will take them even longer to settle in. I covered the sides and front of the tank too for a month or so so they couldn't see out to see if it helped them feel more secure I think it may have helped but I can't say for sure, so maybe try that and leave them to it.

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Cliygh and Mia 2, Diver, Lija

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## Diver

Thanks for the input guys, I'm glad you think they look healthy. My concern for them stems from the death of the third member of the group a week after I got them and their behaviour (not moving, not eating, not pooping, not hydrating). Well, they have both found a water bowl at least once or twice each now, so that last point may be improving.
 I do have two water bowls in there, one is on the floor and the other is half way up (about a meter off the ground on the tree trunk). The male has located the floor bowl twice now and the female the higher one once so this is progress.
 Since my last update two days ago, the male has crawled out of the water bowl and has stayed motionless on the floor. A tree frog on the ground is worrying to me.

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## Diver

Well sadly the cctv died so it's back in the dark again regarding activity (new one on the way). They're both alive and well although they still alternate between looking emaciated and in the case of this one who's been in or around the upper water bowl for 5 days now, er not:





Found a poop in that water bowl this morning and another one here:



Guess they must be eating then!   :Big Grin:

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## Diver

Well I wasn't sure if the excessive plumpness of the frog in the photo above was a good thing or a bad thing. For many days now he's been sitting in or around one of the water bowls, usually in the water. Went in this morning and he was awake and moving on the edge of the bowl. Two hours later he's face down in it dead   :Frown: 







I thought we'd turned a corner with these guys, evidence of poop and therefore eating as well as hydrating themselves, thought they were going to be fine despite the complete lack of activity. Back to feeling at a complete loss again now.

Any thoughts at all anyone?

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## Xavier

To me, it feels like a parasite infection, but I could be wrong

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## Diver

Well it hasn't been eliminated I guess so next thing to look at. The first poops I found recently and actually took it as a sign that things were well so didn't them examined, I'll wait for another from the last remaining frog and get it checked out.  Thanks!

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## Diver

Just checked on the last remaining frog and saw this:







Not sure if it's coming from the cloaca or through the skin, but this is the first obvious sign that something is definitely wrong. Anyone seen this before? Any clue as to what might be killing these guys?

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## Xavier

Still thinking parasite, I would find an exotic vet and get its stool checked for parasites

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## Diver

Yeah, poop has always been like gold dust the whole time I've had them. Saw my first two about a week ago, kicking myself for not getting them checked out but the frogs seemed perfectly healthy by then. Damn it! I'll give the vet a call in the morning and see what he makes of it.

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## Xavier

Have you called the vet yet?

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## Diver

Yep, spoke to him today and showed him the photos. He's thinking viral, bacterial or maybe parasitical. If it's viral nothing can be done of course, so we've started with Baytril in case it's bacterial. Need fecal matter to ascertain if it's parasites, but can worm anyway just in case so will do that. He's thinking parasites are the least likely however. 
Unfortunately due the history and where they came from, Ranavirus is most likely and would explain everything else in this thread. Fortunately as they were wild caught they were kept in a different room to the rest of my collection which is quite extensive and would have been a complete disaster if infected.
I'll update with developments.    :Frown:

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## Xavier

That's horrible! I hope it can recover!  :Mad:  Dang exporters!

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## Diver

I hope so too, it's pretty upsetting, they're such a lovely frog and they get treated badly by the natives in their home country too    :Frown: 

I had hopes of getting them breeding over here (and I suppose all of our exotics were exported originally), but to have captive bred available would be terrific. The way things are in the wild that might be the only way that certain species will continue at all. I've started construction on a 8ft x 8ft x8ft with full environmental controls and I'm heading back over to Hamm next month with the hope of obtaining more for the project but I'm just not sure about the whole thing now.

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## Cory

Sorry to hear about all the problems and deaths of your frogs. Don't let it steer you away, this will be a big learning lesson for the future. I know your vet said he didn't think parasites but don't rule it out unless he says he knows for sure. From my understanding all wild caught frogs will carry some kind of parasite or bacteria that would do nothing to them in wild or take a lot longer to kill them or make them very sick. It is when we put them into a smaller controlled environment that these parasites and stuff just explode and take over the poor frog. Again i could be wrong but im pretty sure im correct and if not totally it is something down those lines. So if you choose to get a couple more of these i would just insinuate that they had these and treat them for the basics just to be safe and put your own mind at ease. Again so sorry to hear about your loses and continuing problems, hope this guy can pull through for you.

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## Diver

Thanks Cory, I do feel now that I've come this far it would be a shame to give up on the idea of trying to breed bicolor. I suppose the problem with treating for parasites is it appears to quite specific. He said he would need a positive identification in order to prescribe the correct drug and for that fecal matter is required. These guys didn't seem to produce any until about a week ago!
I doubt I'll give up even if I lose this one, as you say it's a learning curve but it's also a bit of a gamble. Coming from the wild they can apparently have rananvirus lying dormant and much in the same way as you say about parasites, not harmful until the immune system is affected by stress. The stress of being captured and then shipped must be considerable and guess it's the moral issue that I'm wrestling with. If I were looking at them just to keep as pets then I wouldn't want to encourage the trade, but as I'm looking at a no-expense spared breeding project I feel I can justify it. 
Anyway, there might not be any available at Hamm this time so I guess I can leave it up to fate!

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## Cory

Ya he would need a positive fecal to determine which parasites to treat for. I get a fecal done on the first poop I see for all my frogs even if they are captive bred just to put my mind at ease. And yes stress is just brutal for frogs, I read a couple times that stress is one of the leading causes of death in captive reptiles and amphibians, it lowers there poor immune system so much. Again I hope this guy/girl makes it for ya, they are such an amazing species of frog.

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## Xavier

Do you have any updates on the last one?

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## Diver

Hi Xavier, nothing major or conclusive unfortunately. The prescription is 0.5ml Baytril in 100ml water as a bath for 6-8 hours a day for 10 days. The first day the frog did just sit in the bath for 8 hours asleep but I've been lucky to get him to sit in it for half an hour every time I've tried since. Could be a sign he's feeling better of course, he's certainly strong enough to make bathing or not his decision! The rest of the time he just sits in the same spot never moving night or day the same as they all have done ever since I've had them. There's no sign of any poop to take for a fecal exam either.
On the plus side his physical appearance seems normal (no bloody secretion as in the photos). Still all a bit of a mystery I think!

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## Diver

Had a win with this guy finally. Night before last I was giving him his Baytril bath and he started shedding behaviour so while his mouth was open I got the Panancur into him along with three locusts and four crickets all dusted with calcium and vitamins. He ate the whole lot down and rewarded me with an excellent fresh poo this morning which I can get to the vet tomorrow for an exam. He also seems stronger and actually jumped to get away from me last night for the first time ever   :Smile:

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earthtiger, monster

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## Cory

Hi Diver, that's awesome to hear hes getting better. I have been watching the thread to see if this last guy was going to make it for ya after the lose of the others and this is great news. :Smile:

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## Diver

I got the results of the fecal exam back and there's no parasites. I was actually hoping there would be so that a treatable issue had been been found but alas, no. It did turn up malamoeba though - a parasite of the livefood. While these are not harmful to the frogs as such, they do cause the feeders to be less nutritious as it affects their ability to absorb food. Apparently this is not uncommon in shop bought livefood though so therefore not the problem I'm looking for.
I'm going to have a further talk with the vet tomorrow to see if there are any other tests we can perform.
The frog remains in an apparently healthy state bar the continued dormancy.

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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## Xavier

The feeder problem _is_ treatable, just breed your own feeder, buy a roach, cricket, grasshopper, or other feeder insect colony, and breed them to have your own healthy stock

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## Diver

Yes, true and I do breed my own roaches, what I meant was that apparently the malamoeba issue is common and not anything that makes frogs sick. I'm told by the guy at one of the local stores I deal with that they test their animals very frequently and these malamoebas show up sporadically and it's just an accepted thing. It's not all the time and the effects are limited to the feeders being a bit less nutritious due to reduced gut loading.

 To summarise where I think I'm at with these frogs:

 Bought them knowing they were wild caught and therefore possibly issues. Being completely unfamiliar with this species have tried to provide best possible conditions and confirm whether exhibited behaviour was normal or not. Evidence appeared to show stressed but otherwise healthy bar first individual which died a few days after purchase. Second fatality and symptoms of remaining individual point to sickness/disease present. Remaining individual has been treated for bacterial infection and parasites and fecal exam has confirmed no parasites present.
 So, I think either there was a bacterial infection which has now cleared up due to the course of Baytril (there has been no recurrence of the nasty looking symptoms pictured above) OR there's a viral infection OR there's a fungal infection. 
 I'll talk to the vet tomorrow to see what tests are possible, I guess there's obviously Chytrid (but if Chytrid could he still be in relatively good shape after the three months he's been in my care?)
 Any other suggestions or anything I've missed as always very welcome!

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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## Xavier

I don't think it's Chytrid, it definitely would have died by now, so I do think it's a feeder issue

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## Diver

Spoke to the vet yesterday, he's adamant that the presence of malamoeba is harmless to the frog and not even entirely harmful to the livefood so I think it can be ruled out. It would also make sense as the issues with these frogs have been present ever since I bought them.
He also agrees that chytrid would have likely finished this animal off long ago if it came with it from the wild, although points out that anything could be lying dormant in the frog's system which can flare up under stress etc.
It seems we've reached the end of medical intervention so I guess it's up to the animal itself now.

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## irThumper

Chytrid is still being studied, so we don't know all of its mysteries yet. My Butter Bean died 29 days after I got him, and Pole Bean lingered 13 more days. Pole Bean was sick and lethargic looking from the day of unboxing while Butter looked and acted seemingly perfectly normal. Your pics LOOK like Chytrid to me, BUT other diseases can have the same symptoms. I would do some skin swabs of your frog to test for Chytrid and whatever other disease can be tested for topically. I'm sorry you've had so many problems with them, I know the feeling  :Frown:  

Oh, I would also take the remaining frog out of the big set up and get him into a basic QT tank, something you can manage to break down and disinfect with 10% blach solution every to every other day (clean and bleach food and water dishes daily).

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## Strider18

Sorry to hear about your froggies  :Frown:  I don't mean to go off topic here, but are you going to make a build thread for that 8 x 8 x 8 you mentioned? I really hope it gets healed and better, keep us updated!

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## Diver

Sounds sensible irThumper, I think I'll get a Reptibreeze this weekend and put him in that with a simple set up. It seems that bicolor can happily tolerate temperatures up to the mid 80s F but Chytrid does not so a rise in temperature would seem in order too. Can't see any harm in this course of action and obviously if Chytrid is present then it would certainly be helpful.
I can get him to the vet next week in the set up to keep things as low stress as possible for swabs.

Now, from your experience what is it about this frog that points to Chytrid in your opinion? If the evidence is strong enough I do have another potential course of action. As it will take a while to get a result from tests, I COULD start treatment with Itraconazole now (I have some here). The trade off is any possible side effects from administering Itraconazole to an animal that might have something else entirely. It seems you have recent experience and good advice from herp vet over there, what are your thoughts?

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## Diver

> Sorry to hear about your froggies  I don't mean to go off topic here, but are you going to make a build thread for that 8 x 8 x 8 you mentioned? I really hope it gets healed and better, keep us updated!


Hi Strider,

 The project is a little set back at the moment but if I'm able to go ahead I'll put a build thread on, yes.  My plan was/is to obtain a group of at least 6-8 bicolor, get them healthy and conditioned and then attempt a breeding project. Unfortunately the first hurdles are proving the most difficult! 
 This time next week I'll be at the Hamm show and if any are available I'll be bringing them home. My first actions will be to get them screened for Chytrid and get fecals done immediately. If things go well and they are healthy I'll continue the build and the project will go ahead.
 Only the base has been built so far, but the finished build is to be a room with controlled ventilation, temperature and humidity with a pond and sprinkler system. The idea of course is to simulate as closely as possible the natural environment with the ability to replicate the changing seasons to attempt the necessary stimulation.
 If we get to that stage all that's left is to keep fingers crossed!

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## Strider18

> Hi Strider,
> 
>  The project is a little set back at the moment but if I'm able to go ahead I'll put a build thread on, yes.  My plan was/is to obtain a group of at least 6-8 bicolor, get them healthy and conditioned and then attempt a breeding project. Unfortunately the first hurdles are proving the most difficult! 
>  This time next week I'll be at the Hamm show and if any are available I'll be bringing them home. My first actions will be to get them screened for Chytrid and get fecals done immediately. If things go well and they are healthy I'll continue the build and the project will go ahead.
>  Only the base has been built so far, but the finished build is to be a room with controlled ventilation, temperature and humidity with a pond and sprinkler system. The idea of course is to simulate as closely as possible the natural environment with the ability to replicate the changing seasons to attempt the necessary stimulation.
>  If we get to that stage all that's left is to keep fingers crossed!


*Crosses fingers* Hope everything goes well!

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## Diver

Well I had to make a judgement call so I went for the treating for Chytrid option. I did a 5 minute bath of 1ml Itraconazole in 100ml of water once a day for 7 days. Hopefully this means that Chytrid is no longer a possibility. Frog seems fine, I'm hopeful of a recovery from whatever it was!

Went to the Hamm show at the weekend and came back with these four poor souls  :Frown: 





















They are currently in a Reptibreeze Flexarium and the infected rubs are being treated with Flamazine. I've emptied the 'shower stall' vivarium and disinfected and bleached the hell out of it. After talking to the main guy at one of Europe's biggest frog dealers, I'm going with a different approach from the previous naturalistic set-up. More on that to follow....

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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## Cory

Hey diver, nice to see your last one from the previous group is feeling and looking better. To save yourself problems and more heart ache I would get these fecal tested as soon as you can and have them tested for chytrid. Maybe the vet you are seeing at the moment will cut you a deal or something, I know it can get expensive. Poor guys, they look like they are rough shape.

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irThumper

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## Xavier

How could someone even sell them in that condition? It's a shame. I hope that they get better for you!

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## Diver

He had 8 for sale, they've only been in captivity for 6 weeks. To be honest, I picked the worse looking two because I felt sorry for them and I think they stand a better chance with me (I was able to get them straight on to the Flamazine later that day), but also because all that rubbing shows that they are active at least! I was tempted to buy all 8 but my experience with these so far put me off the rather large financial investment (these were a fair bit more expensive than the last ones)
I'll put some photos of the new look enclosure up, it's spartan so will allow for easier collection of fecal samples   :Wink: 
I'd like to get Chytrid testing done, I just need to think about the timing. These guys have been stressed to the max and the vet is an hour away so I'm wondering if it would be better to wait a few days before taking one in for swabs. Fecal is easy enough providing they produce of course.

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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## Diver

Here's the new look enclosure taking shape. PVC piping of various thicknesses and nice smooth willow canes. Although I didn't see it on the other frogs, apparently wounds on hands from rough wood is one of the biggest problems in captivity so this type of set up is the preferred choice. Makes monitoring food intake and fecal production a lot easier of course and I'll be setting up the CCTV system again to see what these guys get up to.
 The frog from the original group is being kept separately in a Reptibreeze but with a similar set up.

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Cliygh and Mia 2, irThumper, Strider18

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## irThumper

Hi Diver, sorry I didn't get to your post to me, I was totally busy medication my own guys and bleaching the hell out of everything here as well  :Frown:  I actually don't have a herp vet, he's a companion pet (dogs and cats primarily) but I know he was a Beardie owner so figured he was my best shot locally. He at least is willing to work with me and do the research and tests and everything that is needed, so that's a relief! 

I was just going with a gut feeling on the Chytrid from the sound of your frogs, the posture (though I know it's supposed to be normal for these guys) the not moving or eating, and the difficulty shedding and then hanging out in the water and the way your one frog looked in his death picture  :Frown:  The only conclusive way to know is to test, though. I treated my guys with Itraconazole bath solution (made up by the vet) 5 min a day for 10-11 days (they showed absolutely no signs of sickness, so this was preventative measures) and will be getting them tested this week to see where we are at. 

I'm crossing my fingers for the poor guys you brought home. I sure hope you can fix them up and they will survive and thrive for you. I am definitely in agreeance about the testing and medicating of the new guys right from the get go. The sooner you can get a head start on any potential problems (other than the obvious ones they already have) the better. Good luck and keep us updated!

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## Diver

No worries Thump, by the sounds of things you'd have probably made the same call? I can't honestly say that there's been any change in the frog's behaviour for having had the treatment, but there has been no recurrence of that nasty blood-looking seepage since the day it happened so that's good whatever the reason.

So the new ones have moved in to their new home, I gave each an electrolyte bath as I moved them in and the cctv is running:



Here's everyone's profile for anyone who wants to play the sexing game!

Number 1:



Number 2:



Number 3:



Number 4:



And the one I've now had for three months, number 5:

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Cliygh and Mia 2, irThumper

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## Lija

The last pic is a female. Sry not able to go through the thread now, will hopefully do so tomorrow. Are you testing/treating guys for parasites? I also suggest to do full on quarantine for everybody separately until tests are negative and you are sure everybody are ok, eating/pooping. Cover the sides or think of something so they won't see much around, it will minimize their stress levels and help them heal better. It's especially the case with recent imports like yours. Also watch for the nose rubs, if flamazine not helping much, get some systemic antibiotics. I found combination of both is the best, but it's doesn't look too bad to use a heavy stuff yet.

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## Diver

Hi Lija, yes the last pic is the female from the first ones I bought. It looks like all four new ones are male to me. A trip to the vet yesterday has swabs taken for chytrid and ranavirus, but I won't get the test results back for ten days or more. 
 Much faster was a fecal exam (there was a sample in the box one of them came in and also a new one in the cage yesterday morning) which was done immediately by Gary at Cambridge Reptiles for me. Both were positive for small amounts of worm eggs and protozoan.
 As far as separate quarantine is concerned, I housed the new ones together as they were shipped together and have been kept in the same enclosure together for the last 6 weeks, I assumed that if one has chytrid of ranavirus then they all would? Or might this not be the case? (They are being kept separate from my original of course)
 I've ordered some Metronidazole (Flagyl 250mg tabs) and some Panancur (_100ml bottle with 1 ml of suspension containing 100 mg active ingredient fenbendazole),_ 
but I'm finding contradictory information about doseage. The frogs weigh around 100g, any suggestions from anyone who has used these medications with frogs successfully before? 
 The frogs have also been started on Baytril baths (10% oral solution dissolved at 0.5ml to 100ml water) due to the amount of infected abrasions (hands/feet as well as noses/mouths). The instructions are for 6-8 hours over 5 days but the frogs aren't keen to sit in it that long. I'm sure I read on here 15 min baths were the normal recommendation but I can't find it now. Again, can anyone suggest what the tried and tested method for bathing frogs in Baytril is?

 I'm asking for a lot of help again it seems! Hopefully this thread will serve to help others considering this species. I'd love to think that it becomes possible to breed these in captivity, the availability of CB animals would reduce the demand for WC animals which from what I've seen to date can only be a good thing.   :Concern:

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## Lija

I'll pm you with the dosage a bit later, have very limited time now, pls remind me if I forget.
Thats great, you do everything right! you are also right that whatever one have, everybody will. The reason for separate qt is so you can monitor everybody separately, without anybody possibly bullying anyone.,you can clearly see who is eating, who is pooping and how. Also when you start treating and do control testing afterwards, you will be able to do so separately, because you know who's poop is where. It is possible, that someone needs more meds or longer treatment cycle, this way you don't need to repeatedly treat everybody, only those who need it as well you minimize the risk of possible reinfection between frogs.

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## Diver

Thank you Lija!  That's really helpful   :Smile:   Understood about separating for quarantine period now, I'll look at providing a set of smaller mesh cages. I've got an entire room solely devoted to this project so I can just heat the whole room accordingly to keep it simple.

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## Diver

Well this group is behaving in a similar way to the original frog. Almost never moving, not eating that I'm aware of. There is the odd poop appearing now and then though, and they do go to the water bowl to hydrate. The sores are clearing up nicely and don't appear infected any more. All movements are very lethargic even when picked up and this morning this guy was sitting on the floor with his mouth wide open and a very dark colour. I moved him to edge of the water bowl but he doesn't look in good shape to me:



For comparison to the 'normal' colour:



 On the other hand, I managed to pick up a further 4 yesterday which had come from the same Hamm show and were in a shop on the south coast about a 4 hour drive away:









This group is like chalk and cheese compared to the others, they were very active and climbing and leaping to get out of the travelling box both when we put them in and on arrival back home. Two were even in amplexus at the shop (where they were in a relatively small vivarium with moss, branches and plants and being kept moister than mine).
Much more what I would consider normal behaviour compared with mine which sit there and remain asleep even when picked up. More fuel for the mystery !

I'm still awaiting results of chytrid and ranavirus tests...

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## Xavier

So are there no reports of Captive Bred GWMFs? Or do they act in the same manner as adults and get nose rub anyways? Because if they were in amplexus, after they heal you should try to breed those ones

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## Sherry

I hope you end up with at least one breeding pair!  :Smile:

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## Diver

To my knowledge they've never been captive bred over here, the specimens we get are wild caught and who knows what they've been through to get here. They clearly hate being shoved in a box hence the nose rubs. I believe they get collected during breeding when they are easily accessible so they may or may not have had the opportunity to breed before capture. The more I learn about the process, the more I don't agree with it.

 The solution therefore is set up captive breeding programs thus reducing the demand on wild caught animals and ensuring large numbers of the species in existence in captive populations despite how their native habitat is being destroyed (such as in RETFs). The problem is there is so much contradictory information about how to keep them let alone breed them that the process is both difficult and expensive (my project is into thousands already). If there were a blueprint to follow, I'd be following it regardless of cost, but there doesn't even seem to be an accepted standard for vivarium size, structure, decor, temperatures, humidity etc. etc. as we have with other more commonly kept species.

 I have 36 years of herpetological experience and regularly breed a number of tree frog species, but all I can bring is some background knowledge. This species is entirely new to me as is dealing with the different potential diseases and ailments which are not frequently encountered when you deal with captive bred animals. But although I feel the chances of success are low, they are definitely higher than not trying at all of course and with some help and input from anyone willing I'm giving it my best shot.

 I know this species is successfully captive bred on your side of the Atlantic, but I can't find any published information relating to how these people are keeping and breeding them. I suppose this information is not made available in order to protect their financial interests, but it's not good for the species as a whole. Happy to proved wrong if anyone know where this information is available though!

 Anyway, the four new guys being in fine fettle bar a nose rub or two and two being in amplexus seemed like the best opportunity I might get so they are currently in a 5ft x 5ft x 5ft rain chamber:



 Two nights in and nothing so far and the couple who were together have not rejoined.

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Cliygh and Mia 2

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## Xavier

Hope it works! Keep us updated!

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## Diver

Well the new guys didn't spawn or re-enter into amplexus so I turned the rain off after four days as the humidity won't be helping their rubs to heal. I've left them in the chamber at low humidity to keep them separate from the others in the interests of quarantine and they seem healthy and happy.

Sadly the group of four I bought at Hamm are all dead, they obviously had something very nasty and all went down hill very quickly. Early symptoms looked like this:





They got a lot worse looking at the end turning all kinds of colours with very red bellies. I'm still waiting for the results of the chytrid and ranavirus swabs so I may at least find out what they died of eventually. I treated them for chytrid when I first saw symptoms (the skin on their backs also went very hard and shell like) but the treatment had no effect.

So of the 12 I bought, I now have 6 left. The 4 in the rain chamber, the remaining individual from the first group of 3, and a LTC that I managed to find in shop a couple of hours away who had been in their possession for 2 months. Fingers crossed I can at least get these guys to survive.

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Cliygh and Mia 2

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