# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  Sudden death syndrome

## Khon Salcedo

Hey guys... I met up with my friends who keep exotic pets and when they found out I have Pacman Frogs they warned me about this "SUDDEN DEATH SYNDROME" like what the name says, the frog just dies with no apparent reason... Is this a real thing? I'm kinda worried for my pets

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## Jack

I have never heard of it. They can tox out and just die with sometimes no symptoms apparent. Hopefully someone else will know something about it.

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## Carlos

Unless an unstable hybrid (i.e. Green Apples); healthy Pacman frogs do not die suddenly for no apparent reason  :Smile:  .

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Yes this is a real happening. Most of the time there is something that attributes to the frogs death. Cancer, liver failure, kidney disease, bacterial infections, poor husbandry, toxing out syndrome, neurological disorders (including seizures and strokes) and overall poor health.

Now there are cases where the frog dies and there are no signs at all of any problem. This is where the syndrome originates from and how it got its name. Even after having a Necropsy done on the deceased frog and he results come up inconclusive. Now this is probably due to something that cannot be found during the procedure like a heart arrhythmia or even something similar to Sleep Apnea where the frog could just stop breathing in their sleep and yes they do sleep or "rest" as some people call it.

Sudden Death Syndrome is still a mystery and it is most likely similar to SIDS with infants. Everything I've mentioned above can happen because just like us they have a brain, heart, lungs, liver, and kidneys so similar diseases and disorders can occur.

There is no sense in panicing over this disorder because it doesn't happen as often as you might think and it involves all frogs not just Pacman Frogs. Don't worry. All the perfect care in the world cannot stop or prevent SDS because there is no way in knowing whether it will heppen or not.

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## Carlos

I've first heard of the term "Sudden Death Syndrome" (SDS) in relation to large Central American cichlid hybrids.  Sometimes when you mix and match different species, the same unfavorable gene combination safeguards that keep species true will prevent successful hybridizing.  Those "bad genes" or "deadly genes" will sometimes allow gestation and birth to happen; but will trigger death on an apparent healthy individual at some young stage in it's life.  To me, it makes more sense the use of SDS in those cases, such as with unstable "Green Apple" Pacman hybrids.  Maybe it's just a case of semantics; but will try to explain my point.

Internal organs on young organisms work usually fine, unless they don't.  Today's incredible advances in human medicine show that many "sudden death" of the past are attributable to Heart or neurological issues.  In those cases the organisms (humans) did not die a sudden death; they died because of a life threatening health issue.

Pet medicine has made great advances, but when it comes to frogs, we are still struggling along.  Our frogs can die of acute Heart or neurological issues, same as we can. And when they sadly do; we can't say they were healthy.  Unless in a research labs, no frogs get echocardiograms to check their Hearts or circulatory system and they do not get MRI's to check out their brain functions either. And even when conducting a necropsy; a veterinary could miss some stroke or cardiac symptoms.  

When an apparently healthy frog suddenly dies, it's not SDS, it was unhealthy and we just did not knew it  :Frown:  !

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## Colleen/Jerrod

> I've first heard of the term "Sudden Death Syndrome" (SDS) in relation to large Central American cichlid hybrids.  Sometimes when you mix and match different species, the same unfavorable gene combination safeguards that keep species true will prevent successful hybridizing.  Those "bad genes" or "deadly genes" will sometimes allow gestation and birth to happen; but will trigger death on an apparent healthy individual at some young stage in it's life.  To me, it makes more sense the use of SDS in those cases, such as with unstable "Green Apple" Pacman hybrids.  Maybe it's just a case of semantics; but will try to explain my point.
> 
> Internal organs on young organisms work usually fine, unless they don't.  Today's incredible advances in human medicine show that many "sudden death" of the past are attributable to Heart or neurological issues.  In those cases the organisms (humans) did not die a sudden death; they died because of a life threatening health issue.
> 
> Pet medicine has made great advances, but when it comes to frogs, we are still struggling along.  Our frogs can die of acute Heart or neurological issues, same as we can. And when they sadly do; we can't say they were healthy.  Unless in a research labs, no frogs get echocardiograms to check their Hearts or circulatory system and they do not get MRI's to check out their brain functions either. And even when conducting a necropsy; a veterinary could miss some stroke or cardiac symptoms.  
> 
> When an apparently healthy frog suddenly dies, it's not SDS, it was unhealthy and we just did not knew it  !


I never said you were wrong. There is more to SDS than just Hybrids because they are not the only animals that suffer from this. In truth this occurence being labled as a "Syndrome" which usually refers to a disease is being misused and essentially incorrect. People die of heart failure in which the heart stops beating, but no actual damage has occurred and the body basically asphyxiates from lack of oxygenated blood but with no way to explain why the heart stopped.

You cannot say nor can I that a healthy animal will not suddenly drop dead. It happens all the time. Every frog that Ive lost the necropsy showed a conclusive cause of death and if bad genes are the problem then it will physically manifest itself. Hense why Green Apples show physical signs of being unstable and a necropsy can show what caused them to die or fail to thrive. Organs will show damage or distress and human error is always a possibility, but to happen enough times to actually cause a new disorder to be created is a little far fetched. There are still many things about these animals and ourselves that still cannot be explained. This is why we come up with disorders like SDS so that we can try and put a name to something we cannot fully understand.

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## COOCOpUcHoo

This happened to my green tree frog once. I picked it up and it had a seizure looking thing and just died just my hand. He was completely healthy and calling at night too.

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## DVirginiana

I try not to worry about 'sudden death' type illnesses for any of my animals (it seems like there's a similar 'syndrome' for almost every species).  If your husbandry is correct, then you're doing the correct preventative care, and if you notice something wrong and treat it then it isn't 'sudden death'.  Otherwise, there's nothing you can do to avoid or treat whatever causes the problem.

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## Maxinelg

I had an African bullfrog who died just yesterday... I wasn't there when he died, but the way the dirt was arranged near the edge of the tank, he wanted to escape for one reason or another. When I found him, he had his head propped on top of some dry-ish moss and his eyes were sunken in. Even though it was really warm in the tank- and the house- he was colder than ice and he was extremely stiff as if he had been frozen solid. :'( One a year old too...

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