# General Topics > Vivarium, Terrarium & Enclosure Discussion >  RETF Custom Terrarium background - Advice and tips needed/welcomed

## Paul

Hey all,

The frog bug has hit me full swing. I never thought getting my wife RETF for Christmas this year would have such an impact on me and pull me into a new interest and hobby. I recently posted pics of the 18 x 18 x 24 Terrarium we setup for them once we realized the 10 gallon fish tank was less than ideal for our new babies. Well we had an issue with our automatic mister (learning curve on keeping the humidity at the right point) and swamped the Terrarium out. We were able to clean it out and get it roughed back in with the leftover ABG mix we had. We also noticed signs of mold on the wood feature, we boiled it, scrubbed it, and then baked it in the oven for a couple hours. While it was cooling i read around and discovered that the awesome grapevine we bought for the terrarium is completely wrong and will continue to mold and rot in the humid terrarium. 

So this sent me onto a shopping spree. Living in a rural area we do all of our shopping online. With a mix of Amazon, Josh's Frogs, LLL Reptile, and Mist King we bought some additional supplies for the terrarium to correct our noob mistakes and attempt to setup an more stable home for our RETF. With the holidays we have a longer wait on things than I would like.... couple that with my incessant reading about RETF and Terrariums/Vivariums I have decided to buy a 2nd 18 x 18 x 24 terrarium and do a custom background. I have also started to look into ways to keep the substrate from getting water logged so easily in the future. So with that long winded opening done I thought I would share my idea and hope I get some feed back, advise, and ideas.


Idea - 

I bought some cork bark from LLL Reptile and plan on spray foaming, using Great stuff, it into the back ground. I also have 2 Pothos that I will be planing in the top corners of the back ground in pots. I will use straws in the bottom of the pots to allow ager to drain out and not remain stagnant in the pot. I bought a Nworegelia 'Annick' to plant in the back ground as well. I'll use silicon on the spray foam to stick coco fiber to it to make it look more natural. I also bought some egg crate light defuser, and PCV couplings to make a false bottom. I also bought a pump to place in the false bottom. I haven't decided if I will use the pump to pump water out of the tank periodically to keep it clean and also do a water feature or just use it to keep the water level down. I will build a channel using the same egg crate into the back ground to allow the pump to be removed if it has any problems or needs to be replaced. I also bought 2 pieces of Manzanita for the new wood features.  

I have never done anything like this before and have watched as many videos as I could find (which sadly isn't a lot). I have never made a water feature before so any tips on how to make a waterfall. My thought is to do a waterfall down the back that empties into a little pool in the base (the pool would empty into the void I would use egg crate to make walls for the bottom of the pool to keep the frogs from getting int he void) I would also fill the pool with smooth rocks to keep the frogs from drowning in it. Just need to come up with a way to guide the water down the wall to the pool without swamping the substrate. 

Anyways. Any tips or advice would be greatly appreciated.

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## irishanaconda

> Hey all,
> 
> The frog bug has hit me full swing. I never thought getting my wife RETF for Christmas this year would have such an impact on me and pull me into a new interest and hobby. I recently posted pics of the 18 x 18 x 24 Terrarium we setup for them once we realized the 10 gallon fish tank was less than ideal for our new babies. Well we had an issue with our automatic mister (learning curve on keeping the humidity at the right point) and swamped the Terrarium out. We were able to clean it out and get it roughed back in with the leftover ABG mix we had. We also noticed signs of mold on the wood feature, we boiled it, scrubbed it, and then baked it in the oven for a couple hours. While it was cooling i read around and discovered that the awesome grapevine we bought for the terrarium is completely wrong and will continue to mold and rot in the humid terrarium. 
> 
> So this sent me onto a shopping spree. Living in a rural area we do all of our shopping online. With a mix of Amazon, Josh's Frogs, LLL Reptile, and Mist King we bought some additional supplies for the terrarium to correct our noob mistakes and attempt to setup an more stable home for our RETF. With the holidays we have a longer wait on things than I would like.... couple that with my incessant reading about RETF and Terrariums/Vivariums I have decided to buy a 2nd 18 x 18 x 24 terrarium and do a custom background. I have also started to look into ways to keep the substrate from getting water logged so easily in the future. So with that long winded opening done I thought I would share my idea and hope I get some feed back, advise, and ideas.
> 
> 
> Idea - 
> 
> ...


I dont mean to stir people away from this site, but www.dendroboard.com has a few more write ups on doing a false bottom. There are quite a few ways to do it as well.

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## Carlos

I would use Titebond III (waterproof) instead of silicone glue to adhere the coco fiber to background.  Read this thread for info:  http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...aludarium.html.  Also, if having draining issues you can go two ways.  One is to provide access to bottom area for draining using a tube reaching into bottom inserted into a foam block to prevent it from clogging.  Then you can insert into tube a flexible small hose and drain excess water out.

Another option is to have a glass shop drill a hole into the enclosure side (at least one in. away from edges) and install a plastic bulkhead.  Lot's of info and videos on net and YouTube, specially in reef aquarium set-ups.  Then you can just open valve and drain any excess water out.  Can see one here and here.  Good luck  :Smile:  !

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## Lynn

Hello

Think outside the box. I threw the towel in. Literally !  :Big Grin: 

There are so, so many opinions. Likely, too many. It is difficult to sort through all of it. 

In a relatively short period of time (meaning 5-6 years), I believe I have tried every conceivable idea to best house my tree frogs. I keep Agalychnis callidryas and Agalychnis moreletii. In comparison to dart frogs, I believe they are challenging. I believe neither to be a ‘beginner’ species.  Presently, each of my tree frog species is housed separately in exo-terra 36”H enclosures. 

My personal conclusion is, unlike the enclosures  constructed for PDFs, these 2 species do not need ANY substrate at all ! IMO those set-ups typically use in the hobby such as a traditional layer base or false bottom are not needed......... or may I, not necessary.  

I believe it’s all about keeping them as clean as possible since, sadly, the most common reason for their demise in unsanitary enclosures. The walls and floor of their enclosures need to be cleaned (wiped down) weekly.

I use mist king supplies in all my enclosures---- otherwise I would have arthritis  :Big Grin:   Mist King ,was by far, the best investment I have made. 



 :Butterfly:

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Heatheranne

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## Paul

Thanks irishanaconda I will add that site to me reading list!

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## Paul

Lynn,

Thanks! I agree they are not for beginners for sure. I started work on some features of the new terrarium tonight. The rest of the supplies need to hurry up and get here!!  :Smile:

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## Paul

Most of the parts have arrived and the setup is in the very very early stages. I have a free pics to sharif the progress so far.

I decided (out of sheer anticipation for the build to come and sick of waiting) to try my hand at making a custom vine. 

I wanted to use rope, but we didn't have any and my terrarium budget is in the Red lol. soooo. I searched the house and found some things I thought would work. 
First i took a piece of coax cable (because it can be bent and somewhat hold its shape) and an old computer power cable. I twisted them together into roughly the shape I was going for. Then I wrapped is all in twine to give it some texture and bulk it up a bit more. 



Then thanks to the tips from Carlos I mixed up some Titebone III <pic upside down..... odd> and covered the makeshift vine in it


I pressed Coco fiber into the slurry mix as I went along. I did the top side and pressed fiber into it all then laid it in a bed of coco fiber and did the under side. I let that all dry for 24 hours then turned it so I could do the sides, pressed coco fiber all over it and burried it in coco fiber to dry... I am going to let all this dry for 5 - 7 days then clean it off and fill in any spots. Here is hoping the Titebond III won't crack when I bend it some to get the look I want in the terrarium. 



After looking at the vine today it is WAY to long so I will have to cut it down some, but the loop I put in it turned out real nice. Want to make sure that part makes the cut  :Smile: 


Got restless after that and decided it was time to work on the false bottom. 

I cut notches in the supports to make sure water didn't get trapped in them


Staged them in the terrarium and cute the Egg Crate to fit. 




I then cut out a space to allow access to the water pump and built a channel for it up the back. Hoping that down the road it can be removed from this channel to be replaced if needed. Will have to test this out before it is all spray foamed into place. Also cut out a spot and walled the hole in for a small soaking pool for the Red Eyed Tree Frogs. I will fill it with smith rocks so only a shallow pool is available for the RETF to get to. I 




The Cork flats and pump will both be here Sat and then I will have all the pieces. I am holding off on any Great Stuff work until I can test fit the pump. Hoping to have it foamed in Sat night so it can be cured sunday or monday and I can start sculpting it and Titebonding it. 

Still trying to decide how to hide the foam on the sides of the terrarium. Thinking of just getting some black paper to tape to the outside of the terrarium to add privacy and conceal the foam backing.... Not sure though, want it to look good and not just thrown together.. have to think on it more. 

Updates to follow as the project progresses.

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## Paul

Not sure why all the pictures are sideways or upside down.... hmmm

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## Lisa

Looking good so far! Keep us posted please.

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## Paul

Will do! I have a tendency to try and rush to the finish on projects. I am practicing a remarkable level of self restraint with this project. Will be posting more pics shortly for the work that was done last night and this morning.

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## Paul

Last night we finally decided we (much to our sadness but probably the best thing for our frogs) decided to black out the tank. We almost did back paper on the outside, but ultimately decided it wouldn't look as nice as it could. So off to Lowes I went to get some back silicone..... Lowes sucks and didn't have any so off I went to Home Depot. With 2 tubes in hand I returned to the house only to realize half way through the first tube I was about 2 tubes short. So my wife (who has been very involved in this whole process) jumps in the car and races to Home Depot to get 2 more tubes. 

It looks awful now, but I am hoping it looks better once we are finished. 



When the light hits it you can see through it. I put another thin coat on some of the worse spots, but the entire inside will either have spray foam or Titebond III slurry covering it so this shouldn't ben an issue.

We assembled the channel and zip locked it in place. We also put the pump in and attached the hose. My Wife was nice enough to use her smaller sized hands to wrestle the zip ties at the bottom. You can also see th T we put in to allow us to drain the water off too... It was only after it was all in place and spray foamed in that I thought.... if the valve is after the T there is no way for us to force the water up higher and out of the tank... will have to test it to see if my new concerns hold water.




This morning the Cork Bark came it. It was a little smaller than I had envisioned but I think It will ultimately be nice that it is smaller. We spent a good 20 mins trying them in different positions... Honestly the best part so far  :Smile:  we found a setup that we both liked and broke out the GreatStuff. We are using the red can for this tank.




Now we wait. Going to give it 2 hours or so then turn the tank and start working on placing the sticks in. Here are the ones we selected. We bought them from Josh's Frogs. One nice thing about buying them from Josh is they had a picture of each stick up so you could pick the one you wanted by site. They sticks were laid next to a ruler so you could see how long it was, how curved it was and how thick it was. Very nice setup on their site!



More to come later today.

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tinkgirl77

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## Paul

Small Update. The back wall has cured to the touch but is still mushy. Turned the tank on its side and positioned the first stick into place and spray foamed it in. We used a very technical and complicated method to hold it in place. If you need instructions they can be provided for a small fee  :Smile:  lol



and still no clue why all the pictures are showing up sideways... anyone have any tips?

This Picture is like a modern art advertisement for Josh's Frogs lol

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## Paul

Last work done for the day on the Terrarium. Tomorrow starts the long process of covering the whole thing in Titebond III and Cocoanut fiber. I have opted not to mix moss with it for the health and safety of our froggies. 

We got the 2nd stick in place. Not where we originally had planned for it to go but I think I like the look it is giving. We mounted it to one side so it over hangs the cage like a tree branch. As you can see we again used our superior skills to hold it in place while the foam hardened. 



We put some extra foam hear and there on the sides to give the terrarium a bit more rugged texture. We let that sit and harden for an hour or 2.. not sure exactly how long. I surfed the web some and watched the rest of Bourne Ultimatum. 

Next we started to foam in a path for the water to make it from the wall to the hole. It was about now that I wished we just made the hole up against the wall. The foam kept collapsing on itself. We also ran out of foam halfway through this and had to run out to HD to buy another can. We also got some small stiff bristle brushes to try and use with the Titebond III tomorrow. 

Here is a pic of the Terrarium upright and one of the hole leading back into the false bottom.  For a depth of view reference there is about 6 - 8 inches between the back stick and the back of the terrarium.



Tomorrow we will begin caving on the foam and the Titebond III. Later tonight I will lay it on its side and put some more around that lone stick it is looking pretty weak. 

It is all starting to come together. The hard part is not rushing it now.

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## Paul

Pretty Major issue with the build this evening. I went in to look at it one last time before bed tonight (That was 3 hours ago) and saw that the spray foam application on the bottom was a half baked bad idea at best. I realized that the foam "collapsing on itself" as I mentioned earlier was actually the foam oozing through the egg crate and filling in the false bottom space.  So I made a command decision (wife was in bed asleep) to remove the false bottom and start cleaning up the mess I made.

Using rubber gloves I pulled all the spray foam off the top of the egg crate and surveyed the crime scene. I decided my only option was to cut the egg crate along the back wall and remove the section most heavily effected. After the egg crate was removed I spent the next hour and a half scrapping the glass on the bottom of the Terrarium to remove foam and foam residue. It was less than awesome. But I got it mostly done tonight. Here is what it looked like midway through the scrapping. Oh and a picture of the pile of stuff I pulled out with the discarded egg crate.



I measured the piece I removed and cut a replacement piece from what I had left over. I tried to test fit it and realized the best way to get it back in without risking any further damage was to cut it in half so I could more easily re install it. 

I needed to wait for more of the residue to dry so I went and checked on my "Custom Vine" to see how it was doing. The glue is completely dry which was at least some good news for tonight. I measured the vine and then measured the terrarium. I had a vine long enough for 2 or 3 of my terrariums so I cut a section of it out and then spent the next 30 mins holding it in various spots. I came real close to not putting it in at all, but decided that Roy and June could use one more thing up in the top of the Terrarium to monkey around on.. At the very least it would give June a higher perch to poop from and try to hit the water bowl.. I am not sure she has pooped anywhere but in the water bowl so far lol. (just a note: when she does poop I remove the water immediately, clean the bowl, and replace it with fresh water).

So I set about spray foaming the vine in. I won't have pictures of it in the tank till the morning. I am just killing time now waiting for the one side I secured with foam to cure enough so I can turn the tank and lock the other side in. Then I am off to bed.

Nearly didn't share my failure in this thread, but Hey I figure it is all part of the Terrarium customization experience.    More updates tomorrow.

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## Lynn

Paul,
It looks wonderful! Enjoy your build. I bet there will more  :Big Grin: 
Thanks for a great thread! 

May I :
2 little tips
live vine idea--- if you purchase a dark color poly rope ( say 1/2" or less in diameter)...pull the inner cotton out of it.
Boil it.  Using a crochet hook...you can pull the moss and wet sphagnum moss through the weave.
It's work beautifully ! Once they fill in the vine is beautiful and strong! You might even get the sphagnum to start to grow.
There are some photos of these in my albums. 

instructions ( sort of ) 
http://www.frogforum.net/dart-frogs-...moss-vine.html

recent photo of one growing:
http://www.frogforum.net/beginner-di...tml#post209924

Your wood: I would sand those sharp edges and points.  Red eyes are not the sharpest _tool in the shed_  :Big Grin: 
There *will  be* an uncontrolled leap from a startle - you don't want any injuries   :Frog Surprise:  Ouch

Best, Lynn

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Heatheranne

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## bill

Looks good so far. Failures are part of learning and I am glad you showed them. Just remember, you need to be patient with spray foam and allow it to cure for at least 24 hours before moving the tank. If it is a heavy applications, 72 hours. You wouldn't believe how long it can take to cure all the way through when it is very thick. This prevents it from shrinking as you go along. 

As far as the outside if the tank covering the foam and such, I use black contact "shelf paper" I get from Home Depot to cover my tanks, so you cannot see the foam from the outside. 

The vine you made was pretty inventive, except, unless you removed the copper core from the coax cable, with the humidity inside the tank, the copper is going to slowly corrode and poison the tank, no matter what you do. Water vapor has a tendency to get in places you wouldn't believe. 

Otherwise, keep up the great work, it's looking great!

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## Paul

Lynn,

That is a really good idea! I will have to play around with that and see if I can't make it work! 

Thank you!

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## Paul

Bill,

I had thought of that bit about the coper and used a piece of Coax with Aluminum in the middle as well as power cords with Aluminum wiring. 

I started Painting on the glue today. I have pictures I will post after this.  I tested the glue on the Silicone and I don't think it is going to stick. The backup plan incase I am right is to use a thin layer of spray foam on the sides to give me a surface to apply the Titebond III

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## Paul

The recovery form last nights mistakes is complete. 

I did what little trimming I wanted to do and vacuumed the inside of the terrarium out. I cut the wholes for the 3 pots I will put on the back wall and got them inserted. I am using a mesh pot normally used for a hydroponics setup.  the two pots in the top corner of the tank will be for Pothos plants and the one lower in the middle is for a Bromeliad. There will also be a Snake Plant planted in the substrate.



Next I laid the tank down on its back and began painting on the Titebond III + Cocoanut fiber. Once I covered a section I would press more coco fiber into it. Rinse and repeat until the whole thing was covered. Plan is to let the back dry for a day or 4 then check it. I also did a test patch on some silicone to see if it would adhere. If it does not than I will be cleaning off that patch and applying spray foam to all the remaining side and back glass of the terrarium.

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## bill

Looks good so far!!!

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## Paul

Thanks Bill!

Ok So a small update. Things are moving slowly with the TiteBond III portion. Remaining patient and giving the glue time to dry has been the hardest part of this whole thing. My test section of glue on Silicone was a success. I moved to applying glue on the Silicone on the sides of the tank. This ends up being a weird sort of race.... You have to apply a small section of glue and then immediately apply the coco fiber. The glue doesn't stay where you apply it and will start to separate but putting the coco fiber down before that starts seems to be the key. Another interesting aspect to this is that once you have some glue with Coco fiber on it and go to put more glue down beside it you can not get them to over lap. So I ended up with small lines all over the side that I will have to cover when I do my 2nd coat. This isn't a major issue as I was planning on doing 2 coats anyways.

I will have more pictures tonight. Last night I got the glue on the back of the Terrarium and both sides. I applied the glue to one side and let it dry for 2 - 3 hours then turned the tank and repeated this process for all the sides. I did not attempt to remove any loose fiber from the sides as I turned it and did not notice any negative impact from doing this. When I get home the tank will have had over 24 hours of drying time with this last coat. My plan is to very very carefully remove excess five from the tank without disturbing the glue that is drying. The purpose of this is to remove the thick layer of fiber to allow the air to get to the glue more quickly. 

I figure I have about 3 or 4 days of watching glue dry before I can access how much of a 2nd coat I need or not. Then we move onto testing the waterfall... I am not super excited about the water fall at the moment and have some additional planning to do on how i want to pull it off now that the small pond has been scrapped. 

Here is the single photo i took last night before I wrapped up the gluing for the evening.

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## bill

Looking good!! My one piece of advice on doing titebond, patience. It simply cannot be rushed. Give it more time that you originally planned on. 

You may have an issue with the titebond  permanently adhering to the silicone. It is most likely going to peel off eventually.

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## Paul

That is my big worry too. I may run out to HD and pick up one more can of spray foam and do a thin layer over the sides, but I am going to give the glue a chance to dry real good so I can see how it is looking. I plan on giving the Titebond around 7 days to fully dry before I start brushing all the excess fiber off. Only thing I had planned to do between now and then was to tilt the terrarium and let the excess fall out so the stuff that is actually stuck some can breath better. 


I will add that buying the big gallon thing of Titebond is the way to go. Initially i bought 2 little tubes and blew through that super fast. So I bought the gallon figuring I have many more tank builds in my future and will use it all eventually. I do think I like the Titebond more than I did the Silicon. I hated spreading the Silicon on the glass and how hard it was to get an even coating. I can only imagine how difficult it is to cover all the areas of a background with it good.



As for the waterfall. My current plan is to just let the water run down the back wall and then create a little barrier to block the water from the substrate as it goes down to the false bottom.  Not entirely sure how it is going to play out but I have a couple ideas I will try.

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## bill

i only buy titebond in the gallon size. it is much more cost effective. and i never run out that way. lol

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DigitalPunk

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## Paul

LoL, Sounds like I should of picked your brain more before I started my build lol.

Though one thing concerns me, its seems Bill must of been in my home today. I got home and all the glue had pulled free from the Silicone and fallen into the tank. I walked into the door and so Bill's prophecy come true and turned right around, walked through the -25 degree air to my car and drove to HD and bought more stay foam lol

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## Carlos

> ...The vine you made was pretty inventive, except, unless you removed the copper core from the coax cable, with the humidity inside the tank, the copper is going to slowly corrode and poison the tank, no matter what you do. Water vapor has a tendency to get in places you wouldn't believe...


Good tip Bill  :Smile:  !

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## Paul

Spray foam was applied to the exposed silicon on the sides last night. I'll stick it with a tooth pick when I get him to check for gooey parts. If everything goes good I will begin applying titebond 3 to it tonight. 


Also on the list tonight is getting quarantine ready for the two baby RETF that will be delivered on Friday and getting a container setup for the 500 crickets that will be delivered tomorrow morning.

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## Heather

Looking great so far...just take your time. I let my foam dry at least 3 days, especially if its chilly. 

Might want to sand down those wood areas that stick out. Red eyes will leap across the whole tank with one hop... Yikes! Just to be safe. 

FYI, I too use paper towel bottom. You can do a false bottom but you have to keep it very clean. They tend to get sicker and easier than many species. The goal with them is prevention  :Smile: .
Red eyes and most tree frogs don't like substrate on their feet. It makes it hard for them to cling onto things and climb. Large leaf litter might help. 

A glass feeding bowl is very helpful too  :Smile: . 

You're going to love them  :Smile: . They're so cute and silly  :Smile: .

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DigitalPunk

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## Paul

Thanks Heather! 

The wood will get sanded for sure. A few of them are a tad to pointy. I have cuts on my hands to prove it  :Smile: 

The substrate will be covered by Sphagnum moss and that covered by leaf litter. I am also going to order some springtails to put in the ABG mix to help keep everything cleaner, but will continue to check daily for poop and clean it out.

We did a glass bowl for the last couple of days and it has been hit or miss. They don't seem to enjoy it as much as hunting so we might switch back to that. They very rarely if ever leave anything alive and on the off chance they miss one I have been collecting it and putting it back in the colony so it can tell stories of the 2 green giants that ate all his friends lol. 

We already do love them. My Wife is the frog over, We got them for her and I have fallen in love with them as well.

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## Riptide

One thing that might help with the Tightbond is to mix the coconut and/or peat into the glue then once you have a nice slurry apply it to the background. I found that this gives it a much more consistent and uniform look, at least it did for me.  This way might help you blend the sections together too.

The tank is looking great! :-)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

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DigitalPunk

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## Paul

Bought a new soaking bowl for terrarium last night from LLL Reptile. It is designed to be buried in the substrate and has a rim around the top edge. My idea (if I can pull it off) is to mold the bottom of it using spray foam and then attach the mold to the side of the tank so the water dish can sit down in the mold and be elevated off the bottom of the tank as well. This of course will depend on how small the bowl is when it gets delivered and how heavy it is. 

I covered one side of the tank in Titebond 3 last night at 5PM. I will let that all dry till Saturday days and then spot check it to see if it is cured. If it is I will clean off the excess coco fiber and then coat the other side and let it dry till Wednesday. Sorry for the lack of pictures, but it really hasn't changed since the last one. A bit more foam has been added and then seemingly endless Titebond lol. I'll add pictures on Sat before I put the next coat of Titebond 3 down. 


Trying to get it to a resting point by this Sunday. I am going out of town for 3 days and would like to have a fresh coat of Titebond setup to dry the night before so the project can keep "moving forward" while I am out of town lol. 

I am struggling with the waterfall concept right now. I am anxious to get the Titebond phase done so I can test the waterfall and see how it will function in reality. I am hoping no carving/shaping needs to be done to the back wall to get the water to flow properly. The only real question mark I have is if I am going to cut another pool into the floor of the terrarium for the water to flow down into or if I will just create a sort of false wall in the substrate and let the water run down between it and the wall into the false bottom.. I need to test it and see before I make up my mind. 

Riptide - Yeah that is what i have been doing. I have found the thicker I make it the better it sticks to the spray foam and doesn't slowly run off the peaks of the foam into the small valleys. Hopefully this is the last coat on this side of the tank.

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## Riptide

> Riptide - Yeah that is what i have been doing. I have found the thicker I make it the better it sticks to the spray foam and doesn't slowly run off the peaks of the foam into the small valleys. Hopefully this is the last coat on this side of the tank.


Oh cool, I misunderstood then. I thought you were applying the glue then just pushing coconut into it.

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## Paul

I do push more fiber into it. though hind site being what it is on my next tank will be applying several coats before I put more fiber on top of it. Noob mistake on my part I won't be repeating  :Smile: . I do appreciate your advice and willingness to offer it up. Love how involved everyone on this forum is!

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## Paul

Been a seemingly slow week on the build. I didn't see the point on posting updates about doing touchup coats of Titebond III + Coco Fiber. This weekend marked the last or next to last coats of Titebond III

I ordered a new water dish for the new terrarium. The idea I have in my head is to have it be removable but connected to the side of the tank and be easily removed for cleaning and refilling. It came in yesterday so I started in on seeing if I could make it work.

Here is the dish



Next I wrapped it in plastic sandwich wrap and then laid it top down on another piece of plastic wrap and then covered it in Great Stuff




I let it dry for 24 hours, but the plastic wrap was keeping the parts it was touching sticky still so I removed the plastic wrap to let the rest get some air. Here are several photos of it. 



Later tonight I will start shaving the mold down to a much be much slimmer. Then I will work on attaching it to the inside of the terrarium. Though I might titebond it all up first then attach it so I don't have to fight to get it in all the angles with the vine and sticks in place already.

Also I stood the tank up today and dusted most of the loose Coco fiber out. I saw a few more bare spots so I patched those with it standing up still. I also cut the hose back and disguised it with some titebond and coco fiber. Still need to test the waterfall, clean the tank, install the rest of the false bottom, plant the live plants, put in substrate, sand the points on the sticks down, and let it grow in for a few weeks. I would say I am a good 2 weeks away from planting this thing. Maybe 3 weeks.

Here it is as of this posting.

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## Paul

Oh and the new MistKing Nozzle arrived and has been installed into the tanks top.

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## bill

Looking good! I had one of those jacuzzis in my white's tank before I rebuilt it. They loved it, but seem to enjoy their more natural water feature they have now.

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DigitalPunk

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## Paul

Be interesting to see which the Reds prefer the Jacuzzi or the water feature  :Smile:

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## Paul

I was out of town on a business trip and got back last night. Before I left I covered the mold in glue and cocofiber and let it dry ( I only let it dry for about 6 hours) then I attached it to the side of the tank. The reason for the short dry period is I was only aiming to cover the hard to teach areas good before getting it in the tank and fighting to fill in all the cracks. Here is how it looked while the spray foam was setting up.



I went to bed and woke up before my flight out of town and covered the spray foam in glue and coco fiber so it could dry over the 3 days I would be out of town. I snapped a picture of it on my way out the door.



So last night when I got home (after kissing the wife and kids and saying high to the 4 RETF and the MinPin. I sat down and cleaned the tank out some. Got all the fiber off the bottom of the tank and used a paint brush to knock most of the loose coco fiber off the walls. I naturally uncovered a handful of spots that needed some touch up so I addressed those. I then filled the bottom of the tank with water and began testing the water feature.

Now this is where I discovered the little pump i bought it more powerful than I gave it credit for. The pump made it look like the wall was peeing into the bottom of the terrarium. I adjusted the pump to the lowest flow setting and tested the valve to pump water out of the tank. Unfortunately I was right and I will need to plug the waterfall whole in order to force water to exit the tank. This isn't a huge issue, but a design flaw non the less. Next time I will put a valve on the waterfall so I can shut it off and force water out of the tank. To address the stream of water coming out of the wall I added a bit more spray foam around the whole and the plant pot to direct the water where I wanted it. This morning I tested the water again and it is looking much better. I took a short video of it, but will post a screen shot from the video here. 



Over all I am fairly happy with the waterfall. I may do some carving on the foam tonight to try and control the flow a bit better, but out of fear of making it worse I might just leave well enough alone lol. I drained the tank and covered the new foam in cocofiber and glue. If all goes well I will be doing a final cleaning of the terrarium and will start installing the last of the false bottom and planting the tank.

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## Paul

Ok So lots of progress tonight

First I cleaned the bottom of the tank. By clean I mean i vacuumed it clean and then wiped it down.

I put the supports in and then filled in around them with Josh's Frogs False bottom. I then fit the egg crates into place. Sorry no pictures of that. I fail.  I then put the Weed block down over the top of the egg crate.



To keep the waterfall water from coming into contact with the substrate I cut some of the Exo Terra foam back ground and siliconed it together to create a Dam of sorts. I then pined the Dam to the background using Tooth Pics. I found some at the local grocery store that were blunted on one end.



I then used silicone to attach some rocks to the top edge. The rocks server 2 purposes. 1. hide the top of the styrofoam 2. block off the top of the dam some to discourage the frogs from venturing down in the small void. and 3 It looks nice  :Smile:   or 3 purposes. 



I then tested the water flow to ensure the rocks didn't divert the water. Once that was done I put to bags of ABG mix into the bottom and spread it out. I then took some Sphagnum Moss and soaked it in dechlorinated water. squeezed the bulk of the water from the moss and covered the ABG Mix. I also attached the Bromeliad to the back wall just above the waterfall line using toothpicks.



Then covered it all in Leaf litter. Magnolia leaves mixed with Dwarf Magnolia leaves. 



Here is a shot of the waterfallish feature with the bromeliad. 




The rest will be waiting for a few days. One of the doors to the terrarium broke. The company i bought the terrarium from is sending a replacement door from the manufacturer. So we sit and wait. The Pothos and snake plants will be transplanted from the existing terrarium just before the frogs move in. I plan on letting the Bromeliad adjust to the new location for a few weeks and allow the roots to attach... assuming the toothpicks don't kill it.

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## Paul

New door will be here Monday. I discovered an issue with the waterfall and will be addressing it this weekend. The waterfall is slowly wicking water all over the background. I am going to do more carving and shaping of the waterfall and then cover that area in silicone... Not entirely sure how I will address this yet.

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## Paul

New door arrived today and has been installed. Not a picture worthy moment, but man what a classy move by Petsolutions (Amazon Seller) They jumped right on my problem and got the door here really quickly!

The waterfall ruined my weekend lol. I tried a few things to get it working the way I wanted. I made the tough call Sat night and put spray foam in the hose to seal it off and patched the background to remove it. I will leave the pump in the false bottom to use as a syphon. 

I did carve out a section of the foam on the top to hide the valve in (not that i need the valve anymore. I just decided I didn't want that thing hanging out of the tank when I didn't need it. 



The top was test fitted and it fits perfect. 

The plant order was placed this weekend. The wife OK'd me to order 6 more plants, due to weather this week the shipment has been delayed till Friday. Next update should be the planted Tank and a completed project. I am not 100% happy with it, but I don't feel it is bad for a first try at this. Learned a lot I will take with me to the next 2.

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## bill

Looks good. Water features are a pain. The number one rule to a water feature, try as you may, the water goes where it want to anyway. Lol that's not a bad thing in your case though, that brass valve would have been bad to have in the system. Even though they don't corrode as easily as copper, still not a good thing in the tank. 

What plants did you order?

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## Carlos

Glad you got door replaced!   Don't feel bad about waterfall; they are a challenging to get them right.  Ones I've liked the most are those were you barely get a drip coming out of a cork piece or similar without any tubes showing.  Think a very small pump working against gravity or a deposit that get's filled by misting system and then drips slowly is the way to go  :Smile:  .

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## Paul

> What plants did you order?



Nothing to exciting. We already have a couple Pothos for the tank and a snake plant. We ordered

1 - Wondering Jew (I think we got the tri color)
2 - Nematanthus 'Black Gold'
3 - Nematanthus 'Christmas Holly'


there are 2 or 3 others that are slipping my memory right now lol. We must of looked at 100s of plants to find ones the wife wanted to put in the terrarium.

Right now the plan is to pot the 2 pothos at the top to they hang down the back corners and pot the 2 goldfish in the top middle and let them grown through each other and down the wall.

The Wondering jew will go in the wall down by the substrate and allowed to grow out and cover the bottom. 

I think we got another Bromeliad, but can't remember if it made the cut. 

The tank is going to be covered in plants when it is all said and done. Once I have them in I will post pics for them before and after they are planted. 



----- the water feature was ill-conceived by me this go round. I will put a lot more thought into the next attempt at a water feature.

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## Paul

Got the ship notification on the plants and springtails. They will be here Saturday. The current plan is to get all the new plants in place put the springtails in the substrate and then in a week or 2 move the frogs in.

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## bill

Cool! Can't wait to see it planted!!

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## Paul

Long Post - Sorry  :Smile: 

Ok Plants arrived. Here they are with their common names


'Black Gold' GoldFish Plant



'Christmas Holly' Goldfish Plant




Mo Peppa Please - Bromeliad



Rabbits foot Fern




'Smithii' Bromeliad


Wondering Jew - This one was in rough shape. We hope it makes it without dying off to much. 



We transplanted the plants from the current terrarium along with the new ones into Roy, June, Mal, and Rivers new home


Full View


Right Side


Left Side



A couple of the plants are not in line with the misters. We will spray those "manually" lol


One of the snake plants is shooting off a new plant. It has 3 or 4 little points coming off it. 






Spring Tails were added to the substrate and mixed in. Sphagnum moss and leaf litter added back in 




We went ahead and moved Roy and June into the new space after we soaked the plants and let the temperature rebound. Originally we planned to wait a few weeks, but the temp home they have been in needed to be cleaned out and have new substrate put in and we didn't want to add that expense so moving day for them!


Roy went and hid to go back to sleep. June walked around for a few showing off her pretty Blue legs. Here are the last 2 pics




Thanks everyone for viewing this and giving me tips and ideas. I had a blast and can't wait to get started on the next one. It will be for PDFs. Working on a small 29 Gallon project with my son. Might start a thread for his tank as well. We started work on it last night.

Again Thank you everyone! Enjoy!

Paul

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## bill

Nice job! It looks great!

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## dbizal

Been lurking on this build for a while now and just thought I would pop out from the darkness to tell you it looks amazing! Great job!  :Smile:

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## Paul

Thanks Bill and db  :Smile:

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## Paul

Wife and I didn't like the way the lighting looked in the new setup. We went out to Petco and picked up a Fluval Ultra Bright LED Strip for 18' tank. It was on sale for $53 and with the luck of finding an open box we took it home for $45. It has blue LED lights for artificial moon and is 7500K So I am pretty excited about it  :Smile: 

Here are a couple pics of the Viv with the new light installed.

The Blue is not as bright as the picture makes it. We plan on using it very rarely, but like having it as an option.

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## Riptide

The tank looks great!  I love the contrast in the light and dark that the LEDs create. IMO it gives the tank a feeling of being much taller. 

I'm sure your frogs are loving their new home! Great job!

Sent from my GS3 using Tapatalk

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## bill

Looking good. Led's are starting to be the way to go. As soon as they make a system with a more complete spectrum, I am probably going to convert all my tanks to led's

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## Paul

> Looking good. Led's are starting to be the way to go. As soon as they make a system with a more complete spectrum, I am probably going to convert all my tanks to led's


I was pretty impressed with this LED strip. For one I like that the LED lights are not zapping the humidity out of my terrarium during the day. I am actually going to have to reprogram my Mistking timer and reduce the frequency of mistings now. 

I love the look it give the tank as well. Thanks everyone for the comments! 

I am knock deep in my Sons Dart frog tank at the moment. Still debating on starting a thread for that one.

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## bill

I just wish my led fixture had one or two more red lenses. Around 4000k or so. But otherwise, I've been please with it. 

You so have to do the journal for the dart tank. Can't build a retf tank and then a dart tank and not do a journal. Just remember, your next build should always be bigger and better!! :-)

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## dbizal

Is there any benefits from using LED lights to standard? If so I would love to know as I haven't bought lights for my build yet. 

Would love it to look like your tank though, it is stunning with those lights.

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## Paul

> Is there any benefits from using LED lights to standard? If so I would love to know as I haven't bought lights for my build yet. 
> 
> Would love it to look like your tank though, it is stunning with those lights.



I am no lighting expert, but the lights I was using would slowly beat the humidity out of the terrarium over several hours. They produced little to no heat, but whatever it was about them was drink the air out quick.

The LED lights cost more up front, but the cost savings in Electricity/Energy makes up for it. The LED lights can cause the colors in the terrarium to appear my natural and not as washed out as well. 

But like I said they are costly. I was lucky in finding these for the price i did. Joshs Frogs has them for sale on their website but for $89. In my opinion it is worth it. 


Bill,

I will get a build thread going for his tank. His is a small 29 Gallon Aquarium so it won't be bigger, but I am using his build to test out a new method I want to try on the background. Once I am done with his I will start on My Dart tank. It is a 40 Gallon long tank.. I think it is 36 inches long, 18 Inches Deep, and 16 Inches tall.

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## Riptide

I agree that you need to do another build thread for the PDF tank  :Smile:

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## bill

Well, one benefit is you'll probably never need to replace bulbs. I replace my t5's annually. And with 8 36" and 4 48" bulbs all costing about $20 per, that adds up quick. They also do not throw off heat into the tank. But the housings do tend to generate quite a bit of heat. They also do not lose intensity through a tank like florescents do. The downside being is their par value isn't quite as equal as a florescent light. But for terrestrials, that's not as much of a concern as it is for an aquatic tank.

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## bill

> I am no lighting expert, but the lights I was using would slowly beat the humidity out of the terrarium over several hours. They produced little to no heat, but whatever it was about them was drink the air out quick.
> 
> The LED lights cost more up front, but the cost savings in Electricity/Energy makes up for it. The LED lights can cause the colors in the terrarium to appear my natural and not as washed out as well. 
> 
> But like I said they are costly. I was lucky in finding these for the price i did. Joshs Frogs has them for sale on their website but for $89. In my opinion it is worth it. 
> 
> 
> Bill,
> 
> I will get a build thread going for his tank. His is a small 29 Gallon Aquarium so it won't be bigger, but I am using his build to test out a new method I want to try on the background. Once I am done with his I will start on My Dart tank. It is a 40 Gallon long tank.. I think it is 36 inches long, 18 Inches Deep, and 16 Inches tall.


Actually, the price of led lighting is coming down fast. I got my 18" strip for $50 shipped. 

I used bigger and better as a metaphor, sorry about that lol 

What method are you trying to cover the background with? 

And that 40 is a 40b (breeder)

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## Paul

I'll post some pics and explain it in the PDF thread. I am posting the start of it now and will get more pics added tonight. We have been working on it for about a week, but are scraping what we have done. I originally planned to keep the new method a secret from my son and Wife till I started on mine, but today decided I wanted to share it with him so I could get some practice with it before I started mine. Keep your eyes peeled for the new build thread in a few minutes  :Smile: 

why do you call it a Breeder?

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## bill

Cool! I'll be watching! 

I have no idea why they call that size a breeder. There are a few that have that designation, 30b,40 b and a few others. I assume they call it that because it is the most common size for breeding fish? Easier to maximize space? Dunno.

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## Paul

Hmm interesting. Well hopefully it promotes Dart Breeding lol

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## dbizal

Could you guys recommend a LED strip? I know nothing about them and wouldn't know what to look for haha. Carrying this on via PM would be great as I don't want to flood this thread with my questions.

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## Riptide

the only difference between regular tanks and the "breeder" tanks is the depth of the tank.  Breeders are ususally shorter but deeper front to back to allow for more surface area, whereas regular tanks tend to be shallower front to back but taller.

Other than that I have no idea why they are called breeders lol

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## Paul

Feel free to flood the thread. I feel the more information we can get into a thread maybe the more questions are answered for other people. I don't have any great insight on LEDs. I looked for some that were over 6500K (6500K is the minimum for plant growth). I found the Fluval brand when looking at lighting options on joshes frogs and then started searching abound for more information on them. I was at Petco buying a 40b for my next tank build and saw the lights on the shelf. I have no idea if they are the right ones for what I am doing, but they ticked all the boxes I knew I wanted. Day/Night mode, over 6500K. I also knew I wanted the light to penetrate the terrarium better than my traditional bulbs. This one has been great. I just wish I could put the Day/Night omn a timer. I am sure if I took the time to open it up I could isolate the wires that turn on the blue LEDs and fashion those to a timer, but who has the time for that lol.

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## dbizal

In that case I will carry on then :P

I am aiming at growing real plants so knowing that is great! It does look much more realistic than the standard bulbs, so for me it is certainly an option as I have bought nothing as of yet to do with the lighting (canopy, bulbs etc), so I think the initial expense wouldn't be too bad on the wallet haha :P

Would you be able to take a pic of the box of the light you use? Just so I know what to search for other than '6500k LED' lol. I am from the UK also so products will be different. Sorry if I am being a burden though, just I am the type to research everything before I dive in as I want my frogs to have the best possible living environment before I purchase them.

EDIT: Actually I just see it was the Fluval version. No need for a picture now >.<

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## Paul

Here is the link to the Petco Page for the Product. The box for mine is in the recycling already. Fluval Ultra Bright LED Aquarium Strip Light - LED Aquarium Light Fixture - petco.com

Others on here know more about lights and plants and what is best, I just gleaned enough from comments to know roughly what i was looking for.

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## Paul

Ok Bill the new thread is up and I am starting to try and explain the method I am going to test on my sons tank and then attempt to perfect in mine lol

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## bill

Yay!!

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## Carlos

Test on your son's tank... then build yours  :EEK!: . Breeder tank's dimensions were designed to raise large number of fish fry hence the designator. Most common are 30B and 40B because they fit nicely in rack systems  :Smile:  .

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deranged chipmunk

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## bill

I keep both of those sizes "in stock", or I'm my case, in storage lol

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## dbizal

Deciding to go with the LED route. I found some nice cheap LED floods of white produce the same amount of Colour Temperature as the Fluval one you bought (6000-6500k). They have different options of 10w ranging to 50w but for my Viv I would only need the smaller 10w version. Also I will be trying out a Blue LED strip for the moonlight, this way I can have them come on and off on different timers for a more consistent environment for my PDF when I get them. 

This is the LED Flood I bought: 10W/20W LED Floodlights Classic PIR RGB Garden SMD Waterproof flood light Sensor | eBay

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## Paul

This tank is nearing the end. I am growing less and less happy with it the more I look at it. I have started a replacement tank for this one and then the cleaning and scrapping begins to get it ready for a future project.

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## ticmike

> This tank is nearing the end. I am growing less and less happy with it the more I look at it. I have started a replacement tank for this one and then the cleaning and scrapping begins to get it ready for a future project.


WOW, Why are you unhappy with it, personally i think it looks fantastic and im pretty jealous right now  :Frog Smile:

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## ticmike

Are your plants on the floor planted into ant sort of pot or just directly into the substrate (ABG)?

Looks awsome by the way

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## Paul

> Are your plants on the floor planted into ant sort of pot or just directly into the substrate (ABG)?
> 
> Looks awsome by the way


They are panted straight into the soil.



I am unhappy with it from a design sort of way. The vine going across the top of the tank is blocking a lot of the misting water from making it to the back of the tank. We nearly lost the Pothos plants before we noticed it. The water bowl thing should of been water proofed on the inside. It slowly started to sag so I removed it from the tank before it fell while a frog was in it. Other than those 2 things the tank is fine. I just dislike the texture of the background and wish it were different. 

It was my first attempt at a custom background and I think I did pretty good, but I want to love it lol.

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## Paul

Scraping silicone off 3 sides of a 24" tall tank is Z E R O fun.


That it all.

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