# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  Two different sized pupils

## casslovesfrogs

Hello, i have an albino pacman, he's been living here for a few months now. I think the last time i saw his pupils so constricted was the first time i took him home. Since then his pupils have always been more dilated. For the past two days though, one of his pupils has been very constricted, and will not go back to normal. I myself have anisocoria and was wondering if frogs could just simply develop it, or if i should be concerned? Seems to be no dirt in his eyes. No major changes of any kind to his tank. Anyone ever experience this?

----------


## casslovesfrogs

Sorry the pic is such low quality, i figured it was good enough for people to see what was up.

----------


## Lija

hi and welcome to the forums!

 your frog has a neuro damage, depending on how long ago did it happen and why, it might be reversible and/or manageable. 
 please post your answers to the "trouble in the enclosure" questions here so we can help you better. ( Qs are in a sticky thread)

----------


## Colleen/Jerrod

Answer these questions http://www.frogforum.net/pacman-frog...enclosure.html and repost your answers here in your thread.

----------



----------


## DVirginiana

My frog had neuro damage that affected her pupils similarly about a year ago, and it turned out to be a tox issue from getting too cold with food in her system (someone else was caring for her, so that's my best guess).  In addition to posting the answers, I'd recommend doing a daily soak until you get more information.  If there is a tox problem, that should help with it.
It's been over a year, and she is still kind of 'special needs' but doing fine in general.  With neuro damage it may or may not ever get better.

----------


## casslovesfrogs

> hi and welcome to the forums!
> 
>  your frog has a neuro damage, depending on how long ago did it happen and why, it might be reversible and/or manageable. 
>  please post your answers to the "trouble in the enclosure" questions here so we can help you better. ( Qs are in a sticky thread)


Trouble in the Frog Enclosure
The following information will be very helpful if provided when requesting assistance with either your frog or enclosure. To help with your questions, please utilize the below list and post the information in the proper forum area to get advice from FF members that keep the same frog. This will allow for little confusion and a faster more informed response.


1. Size of enclosure- it hold 2 frogs with a divider, i'd say it's 15 gal. I think the other green one is a girl, so once she grows more i will leave that encolsure to her and keep my albino in a different reptile keeper.
2. # of inhabitants - sort of answered up there, like i said there is a divider, they never come in contact, neither does their food. Both are pacmans.
3. Humidity- i don't have something to measure humidity, i'm assuming it's decently high because of the warmth and spraying
4. Temperature-hovers around 75, substrate is probably 68-70ish, i keep it moisturized 2x daily.
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish- for both, i am VERY strict, i use spring or distilled water, never tap, even to rinse their dishes.
6. Materials used for substrate- my friend who is a reptile owner gave me a block of substrate that expands when you put water on it, i used half of that block, there is probably 2.5 inches so they can burrow. I made sure it was safe for them also.
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants etc.- there used to be fake plants on both sides, but i took them out, they just helped crickets escape their fate. They both just have a water dish.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv. (Does this mean their life before?) at their pet stores, albino was kept in a tiny reptile keeper with mossy stuff that i bought but i do not use because the dirt seems to suffice. They had little dixie cups for a soak. I think he upgraded coming here. As for the green baby, she had the same care as i give her, substrate, temp, and all.
8. Main food source- crickets. Every other feeding they have vitamins dusted onto them. Was thinking of trying hornworms soon.
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)- every other feeding, so every three ish days? Depends how long it takes them to eat. Typically i go to the pet store once a week and get 18 crickets, and put them in the enclosure twice a week.
10. Lighting- just natural, i've read they should have the same cycle as humans because they're up during the night.
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure- i dont use heaters, at their pet shops they had below 80 degree temps and i keep my room hot (everyone hates me for it in the house) so like i said it's a steady 75 year round. They also spend most of their time under the dirt unless they are eating. They don't soak a lot. Sometimes green baby poops in her water.
12. When is the last time he/she ate- green has no problem eating whenever. Albino seems very shy, he makes noise while hunting at night sometimes, but he definitely takes longer to eat than her. A few days. so maybe today or yesterday.
13. Have you found poop lately- definitely, i have to clean up after them more than my dogs
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. How old is the frog- i'd say albino is maybe six months? I got him in march/april as a baby. Green is a bit younger but i think it's a she because she isngrowing far more rapidly. 
16. How long have you owned him/her- 5-6 mo
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred- both captive bred
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats- i have been keeping them on large crickets for quite some time because they are both small still, like i said i wanted to diversify it with worms soon because i think they are still small for pinkie mice yet.
19. How often the frog is handled- hardly ever. And when they are, they dont hesitate to pee on me.
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area- low it's on my desk in my room, nothing goes on in there. I sleep. That's about it
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)- i clean up their poop and fluff up the soil regularly, i haven't changed it, wasn't sure if that was necessary. Dishes are rinsed and refilled every other day. 

Other comments- the green baby who i definitely think is a girl has a much easier time, she practically eats out of my hand before i can drop the crickets in. Albino is much more shy, like i said i think he eats at night, and less often than she does. Recently he has been spending his time completely under the dirt, which also concerns me because he usually is only halfway under. When food is present and noticed the green frog will come up for a long time until she thinks shes done eating, then she always buries herself deep. This does not concern me because shes done that since the beginning. Unless shes eating, she is very antisocial. It's unusual for the albino to be acting this way, though. Especially since nothing in their enclosure has changed, everything has been completely consistent since day one.
hopefully you guys can help me figure this out. Thanks very much for your responses. 


by Lynn(Flybyferns) and GrifTheGreat.

----------


## casslovesfrogs

> My frog had neuro damage that affected her pupils similarly about a year ago, and it turned out to be a tox issue from getting too cold with food in her system (someone else was caring for her, so that's my best guess).  In addition to posting the answers, I'd recommend doing a daily soak until you get more information.  If there is a tox problem, that should help with it.
> It's been over a year, and she is still kind of 'special needs' but doing fine in general.  With neuro damage it may or may not ever get better.


Thanks, so do you mean just to set him in there every day? Sorry im new to this forum thing. Does the water just help any toxicity exit through his skin?

----------


## DVirginiana

> Thanks, so do you mean just to set him in there every day? Sorry im new to this forum thing. Does the water just help any toxicity exit through his skin?


You can put 2-4 drops of honey in a dish of lukewarm water, and sit him in there for about 10 minutes.  It just helps cleanse the system.  Not sure if you're dealing with a tox issue, but it doesn't hurt.

Also, those temps are WAY too cold.  They need 75-80 degrees night temps, and 80-85 daytime temps.  You're going to need either a heat lamp (get a red bulb since you have an albino) or a heat pad (to put on the side, not on the bottom). Do you have an in-tank thermometer, or are you just going by what the room temp is?
You need to get a hygrometer as well.  They sell them at petstores.  You have to know what the humidity is.  

Right now, I'm thinking that this is probably a result of temps and humidity being off.  Fix those, and watch for any change or improvement, and keep us updated.

----------


## DVirginiana

Oh, I missed the distilled water bit.  Don't use distilled; the spring is okay.  You can also use tap water treated with a water treatment like Prime.  If his mineral balance got off enough due to the distilled water, that could cause neuro issues.

If you used distilled (or if you don't remember) to expand his substrate, dump it and replace it with new substrate expanded with either treated or spring water.

----------


## Lija

1,2. - you didn't specify if both sided are water proof or not, but if you want to keep them in a tank with a divider both sides have to be waterproof, meaning absolutely nothing can get from one side to another, not just food or frogs, but liquids as well.
3. Humidity- you need to get hydrometer, it is important to know exact readings, as anything more then 80 or less then 70 might cause big problems
4. Temperature- DV covered this one- you gotta fix it asap! and i agree with DV- that might be a reason.
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish-use only spring or dechlorinated tap water, distilled for misting only
6. Materials used for substrate- my friend who is a reptile owner gave me a block of substrate that expands when you put water on it, i used half of that block, there is probably 2.5 inches so they can burrow. I made sure it was safe for them also.
what kind of substrate? there are a  few expandable substrates out there and only one that you can safely use for frogs, usually reptile owners don't use that one  :Smile:  myself i use eco earth only for my BRB
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants etc.- there used to be fake plants on both sides, but i took them out, they just helped crickets escape their fate. They both just have a water dish.
 you need to have something that a frog might use as a hide( plants/rocks/similar)
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv. (Does this mean their life before?) at their pet stores, albino was kept in a tiny reptile keeper with mossy stuff that i bought but i do not use because the dirt seems to suffice. They had little dixie cups for a soak. I think he upgraded coming here. As for the green baby, she had the same care as i give her, substrate, temp, and all.
8. Main food source- crickets. Every other feeding they have vitamins dusted onto them. Was thinking of trying hornworms soon.
change that! crickets are ok, but def not the most nutritious food out there, as a staple use dubia and nightcrawlers with treats like hornworms/pac food and no more then once a month pinkies( hoppers, etc)
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)- every other feeding, so every three ish days? Depends how long it takes them to eat. Typically i go to the pet store once a week and get 18 crickets, and put them in the enclosure twice a week.
that doesn't sound right, first of all - what kind of supplements are you using? and you sure need to feed more often, babies - every day. and if you feed crickets you have to keep them for a few days and gut load before feeding them off.
10. Lighting- just natural, i've read they should have the same cycle as humans because they're up during the night.
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure- i dont use heaters, at their pet shops they had below 80 degree temps and i keep my room hot (everyone hates me for it in the house) so like i said it's a steady 75 year round. They also spend most of their time under the dirt unless they are eating. They don't soak a lot. Sometimes green baby poops in her water.
 as noted above- temps are too low, you need to heat the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate- green has no problem eating whenever. Albino seems very shy, he makes noise while hunting at night sometimes, but he definitely takes longer to eat than her. A few days. so maybe today or yesterday.
13. Have you found poop lately- definitely, i have to clean up after them more than my dogs
 lol
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. How old is the frog- i'd say albino is maybe six months? I got him in march/april as a baby. Green is a bit younger but i think it's a she because she isngrowing far more rapidly. 
16. How long have you owned him/her- 5-6 mo
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred- both captive bred
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats- i have been keeping them on large crickets for quite some time because they are both small still, like i said i wanted to diversify it with worms soon because i think they are still small for pinkie mice yet.
19. How often the frog is handled- hardly ever. And when they are, they dont hesitate to pee on me.
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area- low it's on my desk in my room, nothing goes on in there. I sleep. That's about it
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)- i clean up their poop and fluff up the soil regularly, i haven't changed it, wasn't sure if that was necessary. Dishes are rinsed and refilled every other day. 
that is bad! especially if the divider is not sealed. you HAVE to completely change the substrate once a month! that will def contributed to the problem as well.  as for albino being antisocial- lol frogs are not social creatures not in our sense

----------


## Carlos

You have received good advice and have lots of things to correct on your frogs enclosure.  Need to separate those 2 unless you make that divider waterproof as Lija mentioned. 

A 5-6 month old Pacman should be almost adult sized, if not.  From your description as babies, yours are far from that and it's not good.  Please get some night crawlers (Walmart's sport section) and add them to your frogs diet and do read this article as soon as you can: Frog Forum - Pacman and Horned Frogs - Ceratophrys - Care and Breeding .  Good luck  :Smile:  !

----------


## casslovesfrogs

Thanks everyone, i am really appreciative of all your responses because i couldnt find ANYTHING regarding this on the www. 
I have taken all of this into consideration.
I will change the substrate once a mo from now on, and i went to a pet store to be sure the kind i had was safe for frogs also. The divider WAS waterproofed so that nothing at all could move from side to side, but i have separated the frogs completely, the bigger green "girl" is now in the larger tank and i have quarantined little mister albino to a smaller but also suitable enclosure. Added moss to the mix because i figured theyd like to have both to chill out in. I have a heating pad between both tanks keeping them both warm. Getting a thermometer very soon, same for the hygrometer. Instead of going out and getting spring water i just bought that stuff that makes tap water safe.
Yes i will be using different worms that are safe more often. I use a calcium powder and i was urged not to use any others (and only do it every other feeding as i was advised before), but if there are more i should know about let me know. I am afraid of overfeeding them so i let them eat as much as they want to without overdoing it, but the only one who would overdo it is the green baby. These are also large crickets. Not the teeny little ones, so i dont think im starving them? Theyre plump frogs haha.
As for their sizes, the only one who seems stunted (or just a boy) is the albino. The girl one has grown probably 3x her size since i got her. She now has the larger tank to herself.
Let me clear these two things up lol: when i say "babies" i mean they are like my children, not actually baby sized. And when i said albino was anti-social, i was saying that how he has been acting lately is not "himself." I know they really dont do much at all.
Also did the honey detox, it was pretty cool. I had them in that water outside while i was redoing their tanks. 
If anyone else has any ideas i am open to them. I actually got all my info from a site that wasnt here. I shouldve come here first thing haha

----------


## Lija

i think i should have been more clear  :Smile: and yeah i hear you, there are so many information out there and a lot of people in a pet stores who pretend they know what they're doing.... we're getting here very angry once in a while after someone posting something what pet stores advised  :Frown: 
 anyhow
 look, you need to get eco earth by zoomed or plantation soil by exo terra, expand with treated tap or spring water, take out all bigger pieces and use it for substrate. don't mix any moss in it, moss if ingested can cause impaction that i don't think you want to risk. 
 supplements- you need to use ca/vitd3 powder 2xweek and once a week multivitamin powder, but not on a same day.
 would you have any pics of a frogs? what is their size exactly?

----------


## casslovesfrogs

I hear d3 is not safe to use unless they are in the sun? Or else they get too much? Ill go measure them. And the moss i use is fluker's sphagnum moss. This isnt good for them? If not i will take it out but i have seen it in many a pacman house before. I did use treated tap to expand the substrate this time around.

----------


## casslovesfrogs

He is 2.5 inches front to back, 2 in side to side. He was quite a bit teenier when i first got him, he was pretty much 75% mouth. Same with the girl but she was even smaller. I made a mistake in telling you guys that they were that old, i went back on instagram tothe first day i had popcorn(albino) and it was three months ago....boy was i off. To me this means green girl has definitely surpassed albino growth wise so far. So seeing as i got them each about 3mo ago(idk why it feels like longer), they might not be any older than four months.

----------


## Lija

treated tap - that is what you need, good job on that.
 take moss out, 
 2.5" is too small at 5-6month  and is an a smaller side for a 4month old male. 
  you need to get ca/vitd3 combo and separate multivitamins. 

to summarize - for a start- change environment, get gauges ( digital are more accurate). that would be a first step. the next would be to feed them more often, for 2.5" frog go every day and at this age I'd say as much as it can eat at a time, better food and with proper supplements. 
 i suggest to get reptiboost and give it to both according to the instructions.

----------


## casslovesfrogs

Moss taken out. Tomorrow i will purchase meters and more supplements. Do you have any suggestions as to how to get him to eat more? Like i said he takes a few days just to eat 5-6 crickets. Green frog eats that in 2 mins.

----------


## Lija

what do you mean by 5-6 days to eat them? try tong feeding, this way you can stuff them with nightcrawlers  coated with reptiboost or anything. for a green one, give him as much as it can eat in 15ish min, repeat the next day and the day after that and after that  :Smile:

----------


## casslovesfrogs

No i said it takes him a few days to eat five or six lol, like he is really shy or something, my friend who babysat him a while ago said he ate off my tweezers for her but ive tried countless times and it's like he hates me o.o but i will def. try that with a nitcrawler, ive been wanting to use those for a while. Thanks :Smile: 
oh and what exactly i mean is- say i put six crickets in his house expecting him to eat them all like the green one does, he only eats maybe two a day, they dwindle down very slowly.

just tried to tweezer feed this not so big hornworm to green frog. I swear it looked delicious as all hell and put up a fight just like she likes,i set in in front of her, two mins later i drop a cricket in and she goes right for it -.-

----------


## Carlos

> No i said it takes him a few days to eat five or six lol, like he is really shy or something, my friend who babysat him a while ago said he ate off my tweezers for her but ive tried countless times and it's like he hates me o.o but i will def. try that with a nitcrawler, ive been wanting to use those for a while. Thanks
> oh and what exactly i mean is- say i put six crickets in his house expecting him to eat them all like the green one does, he only eats maybe two a day, they dwindle down very slowly.


Crickets have little nourishment in their bodies and need to be gut loaded.  Any crickets not eaten within 30 minutes should be removed from enclosure for 2 reasons.  First they will stress out and even bite a frog when hungry.  Second they will lose their "gut load" and be of little nitrient value to your frog if eaten couple days after you introduce them.

----------


## casslovesfrogs

Ahh i didnt know that. I "gut-load" my crickets with fresh fruits before i feed them to the frogs. I also keep an apple slice in the tank to avoid the crickets biting the frog or each other. BUt ill just take them out from now on.

----------


## Lija

the other thing to consider is time of a day you feed them, you'll get the best response at about 30 min after lights are off and temp drop, that is when they hunt in a wild. try to tong feed with nightcrawler and rub his lips a little to annoy him if he won't go for it.

----------



----------


## casslovesfrogs

I Never even thought of that. Thanks i will definitely do that

----------

