# Frogs & Toads > Pacman Frogs >  What am i doing wrong?

## bowser

so i just bought a approximately 1 year old from a doctor whose kid had it 
we assume that the frog is male and his name is bowser 
i got him about 3 days ago and he hasn't ate, hes temperature is  around 78 degrees and i keep him and his environment moist
his flooring is coconut shavings that you buy at a petstore i tried feeding him crickets and he ate one dead mealworm (which i know is not good for his diet) i had to force feed him that
he doesn't move much i took him out of his cage to feed him today in a plastic bucket shape container (its a foot soak-er) and i put paper towels down and sprayed them with water 
but when i picked him up (with wet hands) he opened his mouth and closed his eyes and one leg looked kind of messed up and i genitally put him down and he was shaking and kept his mouth open and eyes closed for about 10 seconds, that is what really scared me i let him relax for a couple minutes and then tried feeding him a worm and he did attemp to eat it as all
he doesnt hiss or croak which is well behavior and all but maybe that means somethings wrong with him
im really worried and i have to idea what to do please help!!!

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## Jack

Could you copy this and write the answers next to each question please. I just want to get the full picture of how he is being kept. Could you also take some pics of setup and the frog?

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## bowser

Could you copy this and write the answers next to each question please. I just want to get the full picture of how he is being kept. Could you also take some pics of setup and the frog?

(like this???)


 sure here it is he has a fake and a real fern hes water is a bit dirty

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## Jack

Sorry I meant to post the trouble in the enclosure questions in my last post. Here they are. I bet you were wondering what questions I was on about lol.

1. Size of enclosure
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
3. Humidity
4. Temperature
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6. Materials used for substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
10. Lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate
13. Have you found poop lately
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. How old is the frog
16. How long have you owned him/her
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
19. How often the frog is handled
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

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## Jack

I will have to respond tomorrow because I have to go now but someone else will probably help you in the meantime. Sorry.

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## bowser

1. Size of enclosure-* about 20 gallon tank*
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences -* just the one frog*
3. Humidity-* i spray it about 3 times a day*
4. Temperature - *78 mostly*
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish- *spring water for both*
6. Materials used for substrate - *coconut shavings*
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials. -
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.- *a live fern and a fake plant and  put into the corner he prefers to bury himself in*
8. Main food source- *the man before fed him medium crickets and dead mealworms* 
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)-*the crickets eat calcium food i put into their cage but he still hasnt tried eating mine yet*
10. Lighting-* a heat lamp that dims and sunlight*
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure- *i have a heating pad for underneith but i dont use it much, i mainly use the heat lamp*
12. When is the last time he/she ate- y*esterday but only a meal worm* 
13. Have you found poop lately-* i havent but the owner said he had gone the day i got him iv seen his urine* 
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)*(posted in last post)*
15. How old is the frog -* he said about a year old*
16. How long have you owned him/her-*3 days man before had him since march*
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred - *the man got him a reptile expo so i dont know* 
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats- *the frog hasn't ate since iv had it besides a snack meal worm the guy feed him a cricket a day he said* 
19. How often the frog is handled -* just to clean his cage and to put him in another place to try and feed him* 
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area  -* its pretty high because its easier to get to his water bowl that way* 
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)-* i clean the water after he goes in it and the man  before changed the cage every 3 months i dont believe that is enough changing..*

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## Hypnotic

Boost his temps, 78 is too low, he should be around 83-84 atleast, 78 is ok for night time. Don't feed him anymore mealworms, the shell of those is pretty hard and could lead to impaction. 
Attach your heating pad to one of the sides (preffered, a side not near the waterdish), don't use it underneath. You need to tape off 3 sides of the terrarium with a background, only leave open the viewing side, this will provide Bowser with a secure feeling.
Your absolutely right, these frogs should be spot cleaned and fully cleaned every 3 weeks to 1 month.
The best diet for these frogs is nightcrawlers, try to avoid hardshelled prey like mealworms and other worms of this kind. Would you happen to know his svl (snout to vent length)?
The prey I personally use are, dubias, nightcrawlers and locusts.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

Enclosure may be too large. You may need to switch to a 10 gallon, but the frog is most likeluly adjusting to its new surroundings.

Substrate should be Coconut Fiber not Coconut Husk.

Water should be treated even if its spring water just incase. Water needs to be chamged every 2 days if the frog has jot entered it otherwise any time the frog enters the water.

UTH should be on the side of the tank opposite the water dish not on the bottom of the tank.

Temp should be 80° to 82° during the day and 76° to 78° at night.

Try offering Night Crawlers instead of medium crickets. For an adult frog large crickets should be used and Mealworms shoul be offered sparingly because the chitin in their exoskeleton does not digest and can cause impation.
Definitely cover 3 sides of the tank with some kind of natural background.

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## bowser

alright i can rise the temperature and i wont feed him those anymore i knew they weren't god but i got desperate ill get some backround tomorrow when i  go to the pet store and  i  thought he cleaned it not enough at all i felt really bad for him and i tried feeding him night crawlers today but he didnt react and hes about 3 and a half inches he is really small for some reason 
im worried because his back legs re always twisted and one arm is always under him and the man didnt mention dusting any of his food with calcium im scared he is getting MBD but his mouth is fine

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## danfrog

Take some pictures please.

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## bowser



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## Hypnotic

I honestly believe it's bad MBD, his legs should not look like that.  I personally think it's amazing he survived this long.  I assume the reason for his shaking and eye closing is heavy pain related to his MBD.
I'l tell you this honestly, I don't have much experience with MBD, but I know a horned frogs backlegs should not look like that. 
I'm sure someone with more experience will tell you what you can do, but honestly, from what I've read and seen, it's not looking good.

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## bowser

i got him 3 days ago from a man before, will a vet help?

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## ajpersona123

Im not an expert on pacmans but from what I know about MBD Id say that its a pretty bad case and as far as a vet trip I dont it would be worth it. It looks like its to a point where even a vet couldnt help. Ive seen some pretty bad reptiles with mbd and at one point even found a home for a bearded dragon who had pretty bad MBD. Im very sorry you recieved him like that. Even if you start dusting his food I dont believe it will help your Bowser much. And again Im sorry that you recieved him like that. Poor guy

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## bowser

Will he surivive? What should i do?

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## ajpersona123

Well like I said before Im not an expert on pacman frogs but again with what I know about MBD. He should survive as long as he starts eating again. You should still dust with calcium with each feeding as it will help strengthn the bones some and reduce some pain. But again it does look like a pretty bad cause of MBD and MBD is a disease to which after a certain point it will but even with dusting the effects will never fully be healed. Hopefully someone else will be of more help. I only know so much

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## bowser

Ill try force feeding him more

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## ajpersona123

Id wait till the last possible option before force feeding. Im in a stump with my frog right now and Im trying many different things. Before you force feed you should see what others with more experiece have to say. I understand that youre paniced but youll only stress your frog out and possible could cause him pain. Make sure to check your temps and your humidity. Hes also in a new home so you should give him some time to adjust

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## Hypnotic

Honestly, you shouldn't be force feeding at all. Make sure your new home is right and Bowser will eat, he has before even in the condition he's in. Force feeding is something that is stressfull for the animal and should be avoided unless REALLY needed. I agree with aj, give him some time. Your going to be taking better care of him then his last owner did, so Bowser will eat in time, especially if his temperatures and humidity stay right.

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## bowser

Alright i wont force him too eat how long untill i should be really worried about his hunger he seems really bad
I feel so bad if I knew he was in pain I would never have moved him

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## ajpersona123

well mine hasnt eaten in three weeks. Make sure you listen to what these guys have to say. And you dont want to have to force feed unless you absolutly have to

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## bowser

Alright i just really hope he makes it through this
And im going to have to call this guy to inform him what he did to this poor little guy

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## Carlos

Hello and sorry your frog is sick  :Frown:  ; at least you did not get it that way.  Did you changed substrate to shredded coco (Plantation Soil or EcoEarth).  That is important because if this sick frog gets impacted... it could end up bad.  When you get it (usually in bricks) do use dechlorinated tap to mix into a slightly damp soil that will clump in fist without dripping water.  Keep trying with the earthworms, sometimes brushing it against frog nose will get it to grab it.  Only use plastic tweezers (Zoomed yellow ones) or plastic tipped ones.  Night crawlers should be around the frog length and you can cut them from pointy end.  How big is Bowser from snout to vent?

If force feeding (last resort) get Flukers Repta Boost and use it for that.  It's much better as a two person operation and there is video linked in forum by member on how to do it (can't find now).  Still this one might give you an idea.




Once you get Bowser eating, you can start dusting his food (I rinse night crawlers in dechlorinated tap, pat dry in paper towel, then dust them in small bowl).  A lot sticks to them so only need to dust one.  Do CA/D3 2X and vitamins (1X) weekly on different days with skip day in between.  I use Repashy products but Rep-Cal is good too.  Stay with night crawlers once start eating them and can add crickets (sized same as distance between frogs eyes) or similar sized Dubia in a week or so.  

In regards to calling previous owner and giving them hell  :Mad:  ; it's really better for you and Bowser if you use your energies to help him and not blast out someone who was clueless about frog care.  Good luck  :Smile:  !

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## bowser

I changed his cage the day i got him im getting plastic tweezers today 
How mant times a day should i put the worm infront of him? 
Im sure he knew... he had them before and he didnt post a picture of him on the site and the frog himself was free but the cage was 30$

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## Hypnotic

You should feed Bowser 15 minutes per feeding day, prefferedly after his lights have been out for 30 minutes - 1 hour, don't try to feed him multiple times a day, it will only stress him out more. 
Bowser needs all the energy he can get, let him sleep during the day. Bowser is an adult frog, so can be fed once, twice or three times a week.
I feed my adult girl every wednesday and saturday, she is fed for 15 minutes and eats 4-5 prey items per feeding. Note, if Bowser doesn't eat much, you can feed him multiple times a week. 
You can feed Bowser every other day if he only eats small portions.
But try to avoid stress as much as possible, because the last thing Bowser needs is added stress in his condition.
Handle him as little as possible and bother him as little as possible, and he might be able to have a happy life.
Trust me, let the doctor and his son take an imaginary rocket to the sun and forget about them, the important thing is, your saving Bower's life.

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## Jack

You should try offering it at night about an hour after his lights go off. That's when my pacman gets hungry.

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## Carlos

> I changed his cage the day i got him im getting plastic tweezers today 
> How mant times a day should i put the worm infront of him? 
> Im sure he knew... he had them before and he didnt post a picture of him on the site and the frog himself was free but the cage was 30$


This is what I would do if Bowser was in my care.  First get some unflavored Pedialyte (in drugstores baby section), or similar product and mix a solution 10% Pedyalite and 90% dechlorinated tap water at 80F.  Prepare the bath (in a small critter box or similar you can cover in the rare case it jumps) so it gets to frogs chin and add couple drops of honey (maybe a drop per in. SVL).  Do this this evening or when frog wakes from day sleep.

Carefully place frog in bath and let it be for 15-20 minutes.  If frog poops in bath carefully move back into enclosure and place in it's water dish (80F dechlorinated tap water).  This bath should perk him up a bit and then we can try to feed a frog length sized night crawler.  Try first approaching from frogs side and rubbing worm on it's lips to try and incite a strike.  If you get one; dust a second worm or piece the same size with CA/D3 and try again.  If it gets it, we started winning this one.  If not, I'll leave it up to you, to decide if trying the technique on video is the way to go.  Do update thread and try feeding again tomorrow. Also, recommend get the Repta Boost because it can be used in bad shape animals by dusting lightly dusting food couple times the first week they start feeding, good luck  :Smile:  !.

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## bowser

I wish i knew when the last time he ate was because hes so small ill ,try an earth worm tonight , i havent seen him sleep yet at all though,
I am scared to pick him up because the last time i did he started shaking and hada his mouth open and eyes shut, but when i put him in water before he kepti trying to get out, it wasnt deep at all, but the first time i ever put him in at all he went pee i think

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## danfrog

You have probably seen him sleep and didn't know it. They will have really small pupils.  Sometimes they will close thier eyes half way or all the way. My frogs don't though.

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## bowser

Ohh okay iv seen him have half closed eyes i didnt know that was him sleeping i always thought they close their eyes all the way

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## bowser

ill update how the feeding goes in about 9 hours which is an hour after lights out

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## bowser

also i need to get this D3 im not sure what it is at all well i know its a vitamin but how do you feed them it? and where do you buy it?

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## danfrog

Look for calcium powder with d3 in it. It will say it on the front.

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## bowser

alright im going to get it today

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

Just about any pet co or pet smart will cary it,

I use the flukers calcium with D3.
you can dust the worms with it. 

But I would avoid dusting worms with multi vitamin since it contains mineral salts  and putting salt on a worm will 
make it go nuts and put out a lot of mucus and kill the worm and it won't be very appetizing to the frog.
I dust crickets and dubia roaches.

I have used another product for frogs that are in desperate need of nutrition.  It is really for fish but it has a good protein content
and has vitamin and minerals added. 
I am trying to get the nutritional data for it but can't find it on line. and I don't have the box any more.
It is called Tertra freshDelica brine shrimp.  it comes in packets like ketchup from fast food places.
and is easy to feed with out forcing the frogs mouth open. you can slide the open end of the packet into the mouth and squeeze the paste into 
the frogs mouth. 

This seems to be the least stressful way of force feeding a frog that will not eat. 
But please make sure you have the frog in the correct conditions first as mentioned before.

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## danfrog

Might as well get your vitamins also. I use this.

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## danfrog

I dust nightcrawlers with vitamins too now. I used to just dust crickets with vitamins but my frog won't got for crickets anymore. I either sprinkle the dust on the worm or dump some dust on a paper towel and dip the worm on the dust. Only covering about 15-20 percent of the worm. As soon as I dust I feed it to my frog because the worm will slime up.

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

I guess I'm just a little bit too slow or applied to much powder. but I like Danfrog's solution to the sliming

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## danfrog

If I offer anything smaller than a full grown nightcrawler now Mojo just looks at me like I'm stupid. That's why I dust as fast as possible. Oh I also offer the undusted end to the frog first due to the bad taste of the dust.

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## bowser

i dont think bowser will eat crickets at all ill see if anywhere near me has those shrimp packets anywhere 
thank you for all of these suggestions im sure they will help alot tonight

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## bowser

Unfortantly there was no calcium stuff at the petstore hopefully later i will go to another one

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## bowser

Also i went to check on him and his right eye wont open

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## Hypnotic

Well, I'l be really frank here, if his state is that bad and if he is deteriorating that fast and clearly suffers, I would personally opt for another choise. I can't see an animal suffer, quality of life is the most important factor to me.
I'm sure not everyone will agree with me on this, but from the second I saw the pictures, I had a gut feeling, also reading the description how he reacted when you put him down, it seems little Bowser is going through hell.
If I'm wrong, please point it out to me, but it seems to me that his deformations are beyond repair. Don't base your decision on my opinion alone, I would love for other people to voice their opinions on this.

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## Louis Charles Bruckner

I'll agree with hypnotic your frog is in a very bad state at the moment.I highly recommend taking him to a vet because clearly this frog is suffering and he needs help may be a little bit more help than you can provide.
I don't know where you are in New York but I'm pretty sure there are plenty exotic vets in that area, all you have to do is a Google search for them I'm sure you'll find one.

Good luck.

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## bowser

He isnt well at all... ill see if there is a vet near i live in the kingston/newpaltz area

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## bowser

Is it safe to get calcium powder put it in water a little and have him drink it???

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## bowser

His eye opened up and i got him some calcium but he still didnt eat im sure thats because he is stress were buying pacman frog food tomorrow from agway

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## Carlos

> He isnt well at all... ill see if there is a vet near i live in the kingston/newpaltz area


Here you go:  Herp Vet Connection  :Smile:  .

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## Hypnotic

Bowser, I realise you think he's doing better, but he's in really bad shape, please follow Carlos's link and find a vet, please. The frog is clearly in alot of pain, and needs medical attention.

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## bowser

I know he still hurts alot i found a vet near me that hopefully ill be able to go to..

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## Lindsey

:Frown:   take the frog to the vet TOMORROW, no matter what...

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## Lija

sorry for not being here guys, have vet emergency myself, a very crappy one  :Frown: 
 anyhow 
Bowser, your frog possibly have MBD, but it might not, it is not really typical MBD case based on a pictures and a description of what's going on. truly i wouldn't waste time and money for any supplements, baths, etc right now, if it is not MBD you might not be helping with additional Ca, besides if it is MBD you need different dosage and form of Ca
 you can give him reptiboost to help him get him a bit more energy for now and please seek vet assistance immediately. 

 so sorry, you sound like you really care about this frog, i hope vet can help you.

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## bowser

I cant imagine what else could be wrong...my father said maybe hes inbreed but i dont know
I do care for him alot i put alot of money into him and hes to young and sweet to be in so much pain i feel horrible for him hes all thats on my mind right now

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## Hypnotic

If I can add some personal advice about the money, I'm assuming your a minor? Sorry if I'm incorrected, but have you talked to your parents about this? Personally, I would send one of my parents over to the doctor, but have the vet write down whatever is wrong with little Bowser and the exact costs of the treatment, and present the doctor with the bill. 
While others might think this is confrontational, this is what I would do. If your of legal age, you can do this yourself but if your a minor, I really advise an adult to atleast escort you inside with him, so you have someone to cover your back and he can't talk his way out.
Whatever is wrong with Bowser, he is responsible for, if he likes it or not. And lets be honest, it's worth a try to recuperate the vet bill.
Also, seeing as how he is a doctor, he might respect the opinion of the vet and realise this is the right thing to do.
I also advice you to let your dad read this entire topic you created, I'm sure as an adult, he will understand the seriousness of the illness little Bowser has.

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## bowser

My parents know my dad knew something was wrong before i did 
They know of this forum and they know i want them to call the previous owner see if he knew of bowsers condition 
They probably will call soon 
Hopefully they will help me and have going to the vet possible

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## Lija

> I cant imagine what else could be wrong...my father said maybe hes inbreed but i dont know
> I do care for him alot i put alot of money into him and hes to young and sweet to be in so much pain i feel horrible for him hes all thats on my mind right now


I'm sure it is not genetic, it is either MBD or neuro or combination of both, only vet can confirm this possibly after doing xrays.
 i can tell you this, i very much respect the way you care about a frog, not many people would do what you're already doing for him, especially not younger people. I would be very proud mom if my kids would try to save a live being as much as you do.
 i don't think previous owner cared at all, doctor or not and i don't think calling and asking  if he knew will help at all, technically you're frog owners now, thus you're responsible for all expenses occurring.  

 I'm so sorry he is so sick and hope it can be fixed. please keep us posted. good luck!

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## Hypnotic

Really sorry to do a thread hijack but Lija, "Lija has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."
and I just noticed I've been calling you Ilja for the past few days.  :Embarrassment:

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## Gabby

Hi there.

I have been caring for three frogs that also had severe MBD. They weren't eating, were very lethargic and were having seizures.
One died, but I managed to save the other two.

Here's what I did.

EVERY DAY, I gave the frogs (separately of course) a Pedialyte 1:10 soak- that is one part Pedialyte to ten parts de-chlorinated water. Make it blood temperature water so they don't get too cold. Let them soak for 20 minutes.

EVERY DAY, I gave the frogs a soak of LIQUID CALCIUM. Flukers makes it, it comes in a bottle with a dripper. The packaging is a blue box with Liquid Calcium written on it. The correct dosage for my frogs was one drop per 30mls of de-chlorinated blood temp water. I suspect that since your frog is larger, you should up the dose to perhaps 2 or 3 drops per 30mls. Leave the frog to soak for 20 mins. This will increase blood calcium levels and start you back on the right track. The liquid calcium does not have D3 added, so if you can expose the frog to some UVB light to aid absorption of the calcium that would be ideal.

EVERY 2 DAYS, I gave the frog a Repta-Boost soak. They were too small to successfully force-feed. Add one scoop of Repta-Boost to 120mls blood temp de-chlorinated water . If you can force feed it, check out this video: Feeding Twigs - YouTube courtesy of Heather  :Smile:  Add a little  (small amount is crucial-- too much calcium at one time may cause bad complications) amount of calcium to the Repta-Boost mix. Be gentle.

Good luck. If this is MBD, there is still a possibility you can save him. I wasn't able to take my frogs to a vet, so this is what I did. You cannot substitute the liquid calcium for calcium powder mixed with water. The calcium powder is not water soluble, so the frog won't be able to absorb it easily.

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## Colleen/Jerrod

This is not MBD. Explain the frog's motor functions. How does the frog move around? This is an Ornate so posturing is normally in a very low to the ground stance like a pancake. 

Having one eye closed is not entirely a sign of pain. Pain is normally vocalized.


A vet trip is best, but i want some more information.

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## bowser

Well he doesnt move much at all but when he does its not well he doesnt go far and one time flipped himself over so i flipped him back onto his belly 
I put paper around the outside of his cage.to make him feel more comfortable 
I might give him a nice little soak 
Im scared to pick him up though 
And iv always had a big heart for animals all types and sizes

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## Lija

> Really sorry to do a thread hijack but Lija, "Lija has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."
> and I just noticed I've been calling you Ilja for the past few days.


 sorry  :Smile:  all good now

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## bowser

I talked to a specialist and he said to feed him the calcium cricket food mixed with water untill hes strong enough to open his.mouth and wait untill hes ready

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## danfrog

Which specialist?

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## bowser

Well he said he was he was in petco and he had pacman frogs before and he knew all about the mbd

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## danfrog

I don't know if a guy at petco is a specialist.  I would listen to Grifthegreat over anyone.

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## bowser

Yeah he seemed to know alot though

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## Lija

well...... i guess i need to say it again.... it doesn't look like MBD alone, the only way to diagnose it is to see bone density on  the xrays, but sometimes you can tell without it if symptoms are typical. that is not a case here.
 dusted crickets won't do much, if that is in fact atypical MBD you need to use different supplements with repashy rescue cal being the best. However you might achieve opposite effect if you use Ca without need and with neuro damage present. in the other words you might be using tons of Ca and a frog will get not better but worse. Frogs are very sensitive creatures to everything, so whatever you use it gotta be what they need.
 I really hope you will seek veterinary assistance asap.

P.S. while in a pet stores there might be people who know what they're talking about, I would estimate 99% of them have no clue. so specialist from petco... i better not to go there, too many threads here on pet stores and their advises :Mad:

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## Hypnotic

Reason why most of the people post here with problems is because of the people at petco.

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## Lija

> Reason why most of the people post here with problems is because of the people at petco.


 or similar stores :Mad:  :Mad:  :Mad:

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## Hypnotic

> or similar stores


Exactly, I've worked at 2 pet stores and I can tell you the following, the only reason why I use pet stores is to get feeders. Decoration, tanks and everything you can buy there is overpriced and can be bought cheaper online or at reptile conventions. 
It's better to buy captive bred versus the majority of wild caught animals in a store. They don't know what they are doing, and dish out halfassed advice.
 If I owned a pet store, I'd drop a computer in between the terrariums so I could google the care of each animal, that's how simple it is to take good care of an animal.  Stores thrive on impulse buys, and people often leave there with not everything that they need to take good care of a pet, because if one of those smooth sales guys informed you of everything you actually needed in a store, you'd leave with a bill amounting easely over 500$.
But let's face it, that's a number that kills impulse purchases.

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## bowser

Alright but then idk what to do about him...

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## Lija

oh wait a minute, i just re read your post bowser. he said to feed CRICKET FOOD  mixed with water to your frog???????  you mean to feed it directly to your frog? did i get it right??????
 :AR15: 

 please please tell me you didn't do it yet or i misunderstood

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## Lija

> Alright but then idk what to do about him...


 veterinarian!

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## Hypnotic

> veterinarian!


Seriously Bowser, go to a vet. It has been stated before, suspected MBD and even something neurological, no person from a petstore can help you. Not even people on this forum can help you at this point, you really need a vet!

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## danfrog

> Exactly, I've worked at 2 pet stores and I can tell you the following, the only reason why I use pet stores is to get feeders. Decoration, tanks and everything you can buy there is overpriced and can be bought cheaper online or at reptile conventions. 
> It's better to buy captive bred versus the majority of wild caught animals in a store. They don't know what they are doing, and dish out halfassed advice.
>  If I owned a pet store, I'd drop a computer in between the terrariums so I could google the care of each animal, that's how simple it is to take good care of an animal.  Stores thrive on impulse buys, and people often leave there with not everything that they need to take good care of a pet, because if one of those smooth sales guys informed you of everything you actually needed in a store, you'd leave with a bill amounting easely over 500$.
> But let's face it, that's a number that kills impulse purchases.


Youtube videos are another bad source. When I got my Mojo the pet store said keep him in a critter carrier with some tap water, and feed mice. I kept him like that for a week. Luckly I found these forums and was able to fix everything before damage was done.

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## bowser

I did not feed him that 
And im trying to convice my mother to take bowser to the vet she wants to wait a few more days because hes already freaked out from the move he just made already

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## bowser

I didnt think feeding that to him was so safe

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## DVirginiana

> I did not feed him that 
> And im trying to convice my mother to take bowser to the vet she wants to wait a few more days because hes already freaked out from the move he just made already


This is NOT going to get better on its own.  Get your mom to read this thread if she doesn't believe you.  Honestly, no one can give you any advice other than take the frog to a vet at this point.  The guy at Petco is not a specialist.  They may have owned frogs before, but they have absolutely no vet/medical training which is what your frog needs right now.  
Waiting will only make things worse.  Yes moving is stressful on frogs, but not nearly as stressful as the symptoms you've been describing.

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## danfrog

Yes! Im Sorry but its vet time. Make sure its a herp vet and not a dog vet.

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## bowser

Hey 
So i didnt get a chance to discuss the vet today but just now i turned off his light a while ago and he keeps opening and closing his mouth and moving out of his corner and sitting up instead of flat down he is sitting how most pacman frogs do 
What does this mean????

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## danfrog

Get a picture. He might be in a feeding posture. Or he might be shedding. Or both. Try offering some food.

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## bowser

I cant post a picture right now because im on mobil but i tried giving a cricket and he ate the head and the part that was sticking out he used his hand to take out of his mouth i wish i had a worm right now

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## Jack

Is he shedding? Is there skin moving up towards his mouth? Does he look cleaner?

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## danfrog

Was it dusted?

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## bowser

He looked shinny but i didnt see skin and i think his mouth was moving because had some of the flooring in his mouth and then i soaked him and got it out hes moving more and stuff it wasnt.dusted but then we tried feeding one that was dusted and he spat it out but.got some dust and its legs

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## Lija

yeah he was shedding, nothing to worry about.

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## bowser

But i didnt see any skin?? He looks so nice now after his soak i mean hes not moving right but he got calcium and hes been movinga bit about the right amounta pacman should just wish he would eat more but hes perked up more

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## Lija

you usually don't see it the way they shed and eat it right away.

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## bowser

Ohh is that healthy for them???

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## Hypnotic

Yes it is and completely natural.

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## bowser

Hes moving around a bit hes been moving around his cage he scared me at first because i couldnt find him but then i saw he was under a plant across to the otherside of the cage

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## bowser

So my dad force fed him because he was really worried and bowser took it well 
After he held him with wet hands he atete full powdered cricket well still i think it maybe have stressed him so i put him in some warm water and then he sat in his corner im glad he ate i hope we wont have to do that again...

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## Hypnotic

Bowser, we have told you 5 days ago, you should *NOT* be forcefeeding this frog. Especially not after such a short period of time. Force feeding is not going to help him, You have had him for 8 days and you allready forcefed him twice! It's clear you haven't taken him to a vet yet eventhough everyone here has recommended you take him there emediately. He is not going to get better on his own, are you going to force feed him for the rest of his life? Well, if you are, it won't help him at all. Even in his sick state, he managed to hold out this long, he needs help and he doesn't need food pushed in his mouth.  Do you have any idea howmuch stress forcefeeding puts on an animal? Force feeding is a last resort, something you do when absolutely needed, not when an animal needs a vet.

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## bowser

My dad will not take him to a vet because how hes been moving more and seeming better 
I really didnt have my own choice i dont know whens the last time he actually ate something

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## bowser

Im sorry though....i did feel bad watching him be force fed....

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## Carlos

Bowser needs a veterinarian; that is plain and simple.  It's not a small problem; it's a chronic condition that has been ongoing for quite a while and even an expert would be challenged by it because frogs recover from maladies slowly.

Still; don't stress out if your parent's decision does not follow our recommendations.  It's hard to listen to some frog crazies in a forum when the local expert boy at PETCO or others tells them otherwise.  Also, doing a little bit of this advice and a little bit of that one, usually leads to bad results, with frogs and in life.  Recommend try not to worry about normal behavior like shedding and most important, pass that worry to parents.  

Maybe it's time to take a step back and if not going to veterinary; continue to offer (not force) frog nutritious food (night crawler body length pieces dusted with Repta Boost or CA/D3) and hope for the best.  Good luck  :Smile:  !

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## bowser

Yeah,they cant take him to the vet, if it were my choice and if i had that much money i would, iv tried giving him night crawlers but no reaction guess ill wait a while though

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## DVirginiana

Have your parents read this thread?  Even if the advice here won't convince them to take him to a vet it might confirm to them that they should not be forcefeeding.

You CAN rub the nightcrawlers on his lips to convince him to try and eat.  I often do that with my frog who has had neurological issues in the past and doesn't strike at food well/has horrible aim.  I apply a slight bit of pressure at the frog's lips:  If she turns to one side or swipes the food away that means she's not interested and I don't push it any further.  If she doesn't do that, it usually means she'll eat within a few seconds.
One thing to be careful with is just to angle the tongs in a way that the frog doesn't jab itself in the mouth going after the food.

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## bowser

I believe they have and iv tried that but he doesnt swipe away but he wont eat either im gunna go. Get better tongs soon because mine are short and maybe my hand scared him

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## DVirginiana

> I believe they have and iv tried that but he doesnt swipe away but he wont eat either im gunna go. Get better tongs soon because mine are short and maybe my hand scared him


It definitely took some time before I figured out how to get mine to take food that way after she got sick.  
Yeah, definitely pick up the longer tongs.  They have a pretty good sense of smell; he might be smelling your hands.

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## bowser

Sorry for not keeping up to date but today bowser ate on his own for the first time he ate alot and looked so much better he moved right and everything

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## danfrog

Man that is awesome! Got any pics? How much is a lot?

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## bowser

Ill take pics tonight he had 3 or 4 crickets and 3 grubs he has much more energy

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## bowser

Bowser died the other night (4-11-14) unfortantlly 
He wasng doing well at all that month so it was expected. Still very heartbreaking for everyone

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## Colleen/Jerrod

I'm sorry for you loss  :Frown:

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## taniaaust1

Im sorry about your loss but really hope you will not get another frog. An animal should NEVER be kept if you cant get it to a vet when needed.

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## bowser

Honestly iv had another frog named zeus even before bowsers death hes healthy and young 
my parent really didn't want to spend the money on bowser knowing he was already to far gone and that vet wouldnt do much at that point.

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## DVirginiana

Sorry for your loss.  :Frown: 




> Im sorry about your loss but really hope you will not get another frog. An animal should NEVER be kept if you cant get it to a vet when needed.


There's really no need for that.  This frog had either severe MBD, neurological problems, or both when they got him.  

Clearly there were some beginner's mistakes made with the force-feeding, but an unnecessary force-feeding seven months ago didn't kill this frog; a year of being kept improperly by someone else did (and honestly, those really weren't very bad for beginners' mistakes). There's a big difference between being ready to pay fifty bucks for antibiotics if they are needed and inheriting a hopeless case that would rack up medical bills and probably still end in death.

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## PEatMoSS101

i agree with grif ..follow his instructions will settle your frog down..i think its adjusting and high traffic area causes stress to your frog ..i dont feed my frogs mealworms and i think nightcrawlers are the better food item ..

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