Tongue Sticking Out

[dpcsquid]

1. Size of enclosure-- 10 Gallon
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences-- 1 Pacman Frog (Cranwelli)
3. Humidity-- 85% on the "dryer" side
4. Temperature-- 81 daytime, 76 at night
5. Water - Tap water treated with Repti-Safe
6. Materials used for substrate-- Coconut Fiber expanded with Repti-safe or straight from the bag
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
One water dish, 2 fake plans. Plants are treated with scalding water for each cleaning and water bowl is scrubbed with a reptile/Ampibian safe cleaner. Then both are rinsed with treated water before putting in tank
8. Main food source- Crickets--can't get him to eat anything else
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)-- Calcium dusted 2-3 times a week. Dusted with multi-vitamin every 2 weeks
10. Lighting-- Regular house-lighting during the day
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure-- I use an infra-red heat bulb and a hygro-therm to keep the heat and humidity stable
12. When is the last time he/she ate-- Not sure--hopefully tonight
13. Have you found poop lately-- Negative
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. How old is the frog-- About 7 months, although hasn't grown much
16. How long have you owned him/her-- Since about June this year
17. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred-- Captive Bred, bought from Petsmart
18. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
19. How often the frog is handled-- Mostly to take out of the tank to clean or bathe, so maybe once a week
20. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area-- Low traffic
21. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)-- Water changes when he uses it, which is almost never; otherwise every 2-3 days. Clean about once a month, spot-clean when I find waste

Picard has never been...quite right. He seemed to grow just fine when I first got him, and then things tapered off and he hasn't grown much since. I recently moved him to a new tank (he was in a split 20 gallon for a while, but the other inhabitant on the other side died). He has seemed to be doing fine in this new enclosure for the past couple of weeks.

Picard's from right leg never seemed to work quite right. While he can get his left arm up and over his eyes when bathing, he can't with his right. He can mostly just touch his mouth. Alright, this will make sense in a minute.

About twice in the past week I've found him flipped over in the tank, struggling to right himself. Once it was right after I put him back in the tank; I figured that with his bum leg he took a wrong step and kind of tumbled into a hole. Righted him. Great. All good. I walked past his tank tonight and found him flipped over again, struggling to right himself. Flipped him over and he seemed to be clicking at me. Alright, buddy. Bath time.

Once I put him in the bath his tongue started to stick out of the side. I gently touched it and he opened his mouth a bit and then closed it, but it didn't seem to go anywhere. He got a bit of substrate in his mouth after I righted him, so I'm hoping that that's the case.

However, the other odd thing I've noticed is that he swallows more often than the average pacman. He'll just be sitting in his tank, or in the bath, and he squeezes his eyes shut/stretches like he's just eaten something, when he obviously hasn't.

He seems a bit on the lethargic side, watching him in the bath right now. He's never been one for bathtime, but last time he actively bathed himself.

I'm posting some pictures of him and his tongue. Does anyone have any idea what's wrong? Any help would be really appreciated.

[GrifTheGreat]

Ok flipping over is a sign of severe stress. Have you felt his right and left side to check for impaction?

A diet of only crickets can cause them to have issues because crickets are not very nutritious alone so they must be gutloaded 24 hours prior to being offered to your frog.

Vitamin dusting should be once a week not once every two weeks.

Are 3 sides of the enclosure covered with some sort of natural or dark background?

It's hard to pinpoint an exact cause of these symptoms. More than likely he has developement issues caused from malnutrition prior to you purchasing him. Does your calcium have Vitamin D3?

[Lija]

your conditions are excellent, expect humidity is little too high if it is 85 on a dryer side and multivitamins you should do every week.

it seems to be neurodamage likely in his brain. who lived in the other side of split tank and why did it die?


edit - and Grif was faster again lol

[dpcsquid]

Yes, the Calcium I give him has D3 in it, and the tank is covered on 3 sides. The crickets are always given a gutload diet and water gel in their tank. I'm not sure what the other little guy died of, but something seemed to not be quite right with him from the beginning either.

I'll lower the humidity some, up the multi-vitamin to once a week. I've felt his sides for impaction and he seems fine in that regard. I've tried feeding him worms from the get-go and he refuses.

Thank you both for your help and time!

[GrifTheGreat]

A neurological problem is a good possibility as Lija has mentioned. These can be caused from many things. From improper diet and Vitamin deficiencies to coming contact with chemicals causing Toxicosis(Toxing Out Syndrome).

The tongue sticking out could he from Neuroligical damage, infection, calcium/vitamin deficiency, or swelling from biting his own tongue.

I'm going to suggest that you seek a Herp Vet for assistance. Lija is right about the humidity too. 85% to 90% can cause the substrate to become overly saturated and muddy which is very unhealthy for you frog.

[dpcsquid]

Thank you both very much. I'll call the vet in the morning and hopefully they can see me tomorrow.

[Lija]

did you completely seal both sides of the tank when they lived in there?

neurological damage in almost all cases is not reversible, vet won't be able to help you much with that, but what you can do is to lower humidity, completely change the substrate and do soaks for now in case toxic out is cause. I would also give reptiboost too.

[dpcsquid]

I thought the sides were completely sealed, but that's not really something I can be confident about. Do you think I should take him to the vet right away or do these other things first?

[dpcsquid]

In addition, could you please walk me through it? The soaks and such? How often, and how to give the reptiboost, etc. I really appreciate everyone's help on this.

[GrifTheGreat]

In addition, could you please walk me through it? The soaks and such? How often, and how to give the reptiboost, etc. I really appreciate everyone's help on this.

Soaking is simple depending on what soak you are using. A regular de-chlorinated soak of luke warm water no deeper than up to his chin for 15 minutes and then return the frog home.

A honey bath should be luke warm and of the same depth. Dissolve 3 to 4 drops of honey in the bath and soak for 15 to 20 minutes. As the bath cools have a second bath of plain de-chlorinated water of the same depth and soak again until the water cools or the frog has a bowel movement. Honey soaks are to provide an energy boost and to assist in relieveing constipation in the frog. It can also reduce the swelling of a prolapsed intestine.

Unflavored Pedialyte baths are to provide electrolytes and energy to sick and dehydrated frogs. The bath should be prepared at a 10 to 1 ratio. So for every 10 ounces de-chlorinated water add 1 ounce UNFLAORED PEDIALYTE. It must be unflavored. Soak for 20 minutes or until bath cools.

The Repta-Aid(Repta-Boost) has instruction on dosing. You'll have to gently but firmly pry his mouth open and administer the dose orally for best results. Use a plastic spoon, shopper card, or popsicle stick to open his mouth. Just squirt it on his tongue and let him swallow it.

[dpcsquid]

D'oh! Sorry, Grif, I wasn't specific enough. >_< How often should I be doing the detox baths? Do you think I should take him to the vet first or try these things out first?

[GrifTheGreat]

D'oh! Sorry, Grif, I wasn't specific enough. >_< How often should I be doing the detox baths? Do you think I should take him to the vet first or try these things out first?

I believe a Vet's opinion is needed. They can provide medications and treatments that are not availible OTC(Over the Counter).

Baths should be performed once or twice a day. Like once in the very early morning hours before your frog goes to sleep and once at night after he wakes up. Feed him first at night before giving him the bath so the stress doesn't cause him not to eat.

Careing for sick or special needs frogs is a demanding task. More so than a healthy normal frog which is demanding only at certain times so be patient and try to keep your cool because they can sence your emotions and your stress can become theirs easily.

Keep us posted.

[dpcsquid]

Thanks, Grif and Lija, you're a huge help. I have an appointment with an exotics specialist a few towns over for 3:30 today. Just trying to figure out the best way to transport him at the moment, and keep him warm for the trip.

[GrifTheGreat]

Thanks, Grif and Lija, you're a huge help. I have an appointment with an exotics specialist a few towns over for 3:30 today. Just trying to figure out the best way to transport him at the moment, and keep him warm for the trip.

Have the car warmed up well. Use a critter keeper lined with moist paper towels. Go out and buy those thermal toe warming pads that are like hand warmers only they go in your shoe. They have an adhesive side that you can stick on the outside of the keeper. Place them on the bottom for best results. They will act like little UTHs. Make sure the lid of the critter keeper is covered with Saran Wrap/ plastic wrap to hold heat and moisture in. It will also assist in keeping drafts out.

When taking him outside in the cold just bring a towel with you and cover the keeper up with it. This will also keep drafts out. Hold him close to you as well so that his not accidentally dropped and you will act as a wind breaker. Make sure you the the vents on each end of the keeper excluding the front and back. Also cover the sides with some sort of background so he cannot see out to reduce stress.

Make sure the keeper is secured in the car and can't move around.

[dpcsquid]

Aye Aye, Grif! I feel like I should be putting on chain mail and war paint too.

[GrifTheGreat]

Aye Aye, Grif! I feel like I should be putting on chain mail and war paint too.

Chain mail and war paint are optional!

[dpcsquid]

Just got back from the vet. After a big scare (I pulled him out of his layers of tanks and he was belly-up) and an exam by a really awesome vet, he says he's hypo-calcemic, even with the calcium he's been getting. He told me to go get a Repti-Glo 5.0 UVB to help process the vitamins.

In addition, he gave Picard a one-time A and D vitamin boost in the office and sent me home with oral calcium to give him twice a day and a Protein-Enhanced Carnivore diet to syringe-feed him twice a week in the meantime.

Little guy has been moved to a 5 gallon tank with moist paper towels and a hidey-hole. He said that the guy may grow some or that he might be the product of inbreeding.

All in all a very productive visit and I'd like to thank everyone for all of your help. <3

[GrifTheGreat]

Just got back from the vet. After a big scare (I pulled him out of his layers of tanks and he was belly-up) and an exam by a really awesome vet, he says he's hypo-calcemic, even with the calcium he's been getting. He told me to go get a Repti-Glo 5.0 UVB to help process the vitamins.

In addition, he gave Picard a one-time A and D vitamin boost in the office and sent me home with oral calcium to give him twice a day and a Protein-Enhanced Carnivore diet to syringe-feed him twice a week in the meantime.

Little guy has been moved to a 5 gallon tank with moist paper towels and a hidey-hole. He said that the guy may grow some or that he might be the product of inbreeding.

All in all a very productive visit and I'd like to thank everyone for all of your help. <3

Well honestly the UVB light isn't needed, but he will benefit from 4 to 6 hours of UVB exposure per day. Horn Frogs need insane amounts of calcium because they grow so fast. They can reach adult size is less than a 3 months with proper nutrition and supplemetation.

Keep us posted on his progress make sure he has shelter because those CFLs can be really bright.

[dpcsquid]

So, it's been about 4 weeks, and although my little guy hasn't been eating crickets, I've been feeding him the rescue diet twice a week. Today I finally put him back in soil for the first time, came back 3 minutes later...and he had flipped himself over. Drama queen. I just put a bit of dirt on him and am walking away at the moment, hoping he just needs some adjusting time, because at the moment he looks like O___________________O

Any recommendations for moving a frog back to soil after it's been on paper towels for a month? Any way to wean them back into it?

[GrifTheGreat]

So, it's been about 4 weeks, and although my little guy hasn't been eating crickets, I've been feeding him the rescue diet twice a week. Today I finally put him back in soil for the first time, came back 3 minutes later...and he had flipped himself over. Drama queen. I just put a bit of dirt on him and am walking away at the moment, hoping he just needs some adjusting time, because at the moment he looks like O___________________O

Any recommendations for moving a frog back to soil after it's been on paper towels for a month? Any way to wean them back into it?

There is normally no need for weaning. Their instincts usually kick in and they burrow in. You could keep him on towels and just add a container full of substrate for him to burrow into. I've done this before.