Let's talk substrates

[Jerah Teoh Yong Qiang]

So I was having a discussion with a frog breeder and substrates came up.

Cocopeat, paper towel, bark, moss mat, you name it, we've talked about it.

So, I want to get the forumer's point of view, what are the drawbacks and strong-points of the substrate and its alternatives of your choice with regards to your vivaria and its occupants?

For example:

• My pacman uses cocofiber as its substrate; good part is that it's cheap, retains humidity, minimal risk of impaction, easy to burrow in. Bad part is that it can occasionally contain fine sharp particles that can break frog skin and cause infections, and also cocopeat is great media at bacterial growth (good and bad).
• An alternative would be sphagnum; good is that it's soft and retains humidity very well. Bad is that impaction is an issue if you do not tong feed or do not feed in a separate tub.

What are your thoughts concerning your pet frog and its substrate? Would love to learn the rationale behind your choice!

[Lija]

well, not sure how in depth you wanna go, I'll just skim the surface as well don't know what frogs are we talking about, but say for a fat frogs:
1. cocofiber:
I don't see any negatives, as long as you change it every month and take out occasional strings before you place a new one in.
positives you listed yourself, it holds humidity well, it doesn't mold, bacterial growth is under control, frog can burrow, that is the most natural substrate for these frogs.
the only negative here is that it is dark colored and frogs tend to blend in, so the colors of a frog will darken as well it is gonna be all dirty ( and happy) all the time. i've never found any sharp particles in there, but you just always have a look and run through your fingers before putting it in just in case.
2. foam filters.
time consuming to clean, you need to do it every day, frogs can't borrow, not natural, but the frogs will be very clean and their colors will be visible very nicely.
3. paper towels.
the most hygienic substrate, is being used for hospital set ups, pros and cons same as foam, but it is better then foam because you don't rinse papertowels thus absolutely no bacteria will transfer from old to a new.
4. rocks, bark, moss.... NO! even if you feed in a separate enclosure it might ingest while shedding.
5. water - these are not aquatic species, no need to keep them like that, back legs atrophy will happen after a few months in that environment and the longer the worse it is gonna be.

all above apply for a fat frogs that burrow. for darts, tree frogs, etc, etc, etc different rules apply. say for waxies cocofiber is not suitable substrate, papertowels or plain felt carpet is a way to go.

[poison]

I use bioactive substrate and only bioactive substrate. Its the best way to go If you are using lots of soil for an animal or making a nice viv that you don't want to destroy everytime you cleen the enclosure. Bio-active substrate is the soils natural bacteria that breaks down waste matter and mold. For frogs I prefer to use bioactive soil and for reptiles I use bioactive sand/soil. A good way to introduce helpful bacteria into your enclosures is go out side and pick up leaf litter.

[Jerah Teoh Yong Qiang]

Thanks for the input fellow froggers! Really do appreciate it.

I use bioactive substrate and only bioactive substrate. Its the best way to go If you are using lots of soil for an animal or making a nice viv that you don't want to destroy everytime you cleen the enclosure. Bio-active substrate is the soils natural bacteria that breaks down waste matter and mold. For frogs I prefer to use bioactive soil and for reptiles I use bioactive sand/soil. A good way to introduce helpful bacteria into your enclosures is go out side and pick up leaf litter.

On bioactive soil, what exactly is that? I've never actually heard of it before, can you please enlighten me?

[DartEd]

Being a dart frog hobbyist, I use ABG or similar derivative under a solid layer of sand oak and magnolia leaf litter. It's a precise mix of orchid bark, peat moss, charcoal, sphagnum moss and tree fern fiber. The reasons are ABG is excellent at supporting microfauna and excellent drainage with enough water retention to support tropical plants. The variation in leaves is due to magnolia leaves breaking down faster than sand oak providing both long and short term food for the 4 different isopods and 3 different populations of springtails in my tanks.

heres the recipe for it but it can be bought premade. It's only cost effective to mix yourself if you're going to fill a lot of tanks. Otherwise, Josh's, ne herp and lots of other retailers sell it in one gallon premade bags.

2 parts Ground Tree Fern Root
2 parts milled Sphagnum Moss
2 part orchid bark
1 part sphagnum peat moss
1 part charcoal

[Dj Quik]

On bioactive soil, what exactly is that? I've never actually heard of it before, can you please enlighten me?

bio-active substrate is pretty much living dirt, the reason its so great is because you never have to deal with things like picking up poop, or changing out old substrate. a great benefit for frogs or reptiles that like to burrow is that in order for it to successfully clean your tank it has to be several inches deep, so not only does it hold beneficial bacteria and bugs that clean the enclosure it also holds the humidity at depth for a strong burrow

[Jerah Teoh Yong Qiang]

Being a dart frog hobbyist, I use ABG or similar derivative under a solid layer of sand oak and magnolia leaf litter. It's a precise mix of orchid bark, peat moss, charcoal, sphagnum moss and tree fern fiber. The reasons are ABG is excellent at supporting microfauna and excellent drainage with enough water retention to support tropical plants. The variation in leaves is due to magnolia leaves breaking down faster than sand oak providing both long and short term food for the 4 different isopods and 3 different populations of springtails in my tanks.

heres the recipe for it but it can be bought premade. It's only cost effective to mix yourself if you're going to fill a lot of tanks. Otherwise, Josh's, ne herp and lots of other retailers sell it in one gallon premade bags.

2 parts Ground Tree Fern Root
2 parts milled Sphagnum Moss
2 part orchid bark
1 part sphagnum peat moss
1 part charcoal

Thanks for the leaf litter mix tip. I made my own ABG as well but I don't have tree fern fiber, so I replace that with tree fern root chips.

[Jerah Teoh Yong Qiang]

I just discovered that a keeper here uses ADA soil as substrate for his vampire crabs in a semi-aquatic viv setup. Does anyone here know if ADA is frog-safe?

[nirotorin]

That ABG substrate sounds pretty interesting. I may have to make my own version using materials I can find locally.

[deranged chipmunk]

ADA soils are in fact safe to use in a frog tank, BUT, they release a ridiculous amount of ammonia while the tank cycles. You should cycle it in an aquarium, monitoring levels and doing constant water changes until the tank cycles then i would transfer it to a viv.

For what it is worth, i use a soiless soil mix used for hydroponics growing and a layer of cocofiber in all my tanks and my plants love me for it. Also, all soil becomes "bio-active" over time.Like an aquarium denitrifying bacteria are present in soil. It's how soil breaks down nitrogen so plants can use it. Bio-active soils are just seeded with bacteria, nothing more.

[never quit]

ADA soils are in fact safe to use in a frog tank, BUT, they release a ridiculous amount of ammonia while the tank cycles. You should cycle it in an aquarium, monitoring levels and doing constant water changes until the tank cycles then i would transfer it to a viv.

For what it is worth, i use a soiless soil mix used for hydroponics growing and a layer of cocofiber in all my tanks and my plants love me for it. Also, all soil becomes "bio-active" over time.Like an aquarium denitrifying bacteria are present in soil. It's how soil breaks down nitrogen so plants can use it. Bio-active soils are just seeded with bacteria, nothing more.

That bioactive soil sounds interesting......Currently I use Eco Earth....My take on reading the replies is it's more natural, and will decompose the frog feces, thus you have a stable environment?.....Much like a fish tank with all live plants compared to all plastic plants....I have ONLY live plants in my tanks. But anyway, you say you have to cycle this?....The same way as cycling a fish tank?
If someone will tell me how to set this up, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks
Lloyd

[deranged chipmunk]

no, you need to cycle ADA Aquasoil prior to using it in a vivarium due to the amount of ammonia it releases.

Eco-earth is nothing more than ground up and processed coconut fibers. It in no way will just decompose feces. Bacteria needs to build up in a vivarium in order for that to happen. And it's not like it will magically disappear overnight. That is why we recommend microfauna (isopods and springtails) that actually feed on feces and decaying plant matter.

[poison]

ADA soils are in fact safe to use in a frog tank, BUT, they release a ridiculous amount of ammonia while the tank cycles. You should cycle it in an aquarium, monitoring levels and doing constant water changes until the tank cycles then i would transfer it to a viv.

For what it is worth, i use a soiless soil mix used for hydroponics growing and a layer of cocofiber in all my tanks and my plants love me for it. Also, all soil becomes "bio-active" over time.Like an aquarium denitrifying bacteria are present in soil. It's how soil breaks down nitrogen so plants can use it. Bio-active soils are just seeded with bacteria, nothing more.

Though bacteria is the main part of bioactive substrate they're are also other critters crawling around in it. Microbes, substrate mites and if you choose too add them in then earth worms, isopods and spring tail (though there is a species thast usually makes its way into my enclosures withot me adding them).

My cornsnake enclosure has been up and running for over a year, never once cleaned (other then spot cleaning obvious waste matter). It smells nice and fresh to this day. Heres a nice read http://www.geckotime.com/bio-active-reptile-substrate/ You can also read more about in "The art of keeping snakes" book.

[poison]

A great way of building up helpful bacteria in your enclosure is to go out and get leaf litter from the woods.

[never quit]

no, you need to cycle ADA Aquasoil prior to using it in a vivarium due to the amount of ammonia it releases.

Eco-earth is nothing more than ground up and processed coconut fibers. It in no way will just decompose feces. Bacteria needs to build up in a vivarium in order for that to happen. And it's not like it will magically disappear overnight. That is why we recommend microfauna (isopods and springtails) that actually feed on feces and decaying plant matter.

Bill: So can you give me a procedure for cycling the ADA soil....And, if the isopods and springtails handle the solid waste, what about the urine?.....While this seems very interesting, I have NO idea about this, so if you can be a litlte detailed, I'd appreciate it.

From reading this thread, the bioactive soil seems to be THE way to go, more natural, less maintenance once it's setup....If that's true, why aren't more pacman and african bullfrog keepers using it?......Well, maybe they are, I just haven't been paying attention, but from my readings, the Eco earth coco fiber seems to be the standard substrate.

Thanks for you help
Lloyd

[deranged chipmunk]

Lloyd, i can link you to a site that has discussed using Aquasoil heavily, but why go through all of that when there are so many other substrates that are safer? remember, ADA Aquasoil is designed to be used in planted aquariums,not necessarily vivariums. the cycling process is essentially that of cycling a new aquarium, but could take up to six weeks before it's ready for use.

[never quit]

Lloyd, i can link you to a site that has discussed using Aquasoil heavily, but why go through all of that when there are so many other substrates that are safer? remember, ADA Aquasoil is designed to be used in planted aquariums,not necessarily vivariums. the cycling process is essentially that of cycling a new aquarium, but could take up to six weeks before it's ready for use.

Bill: Good point....I was just thinking with the bioactivity, it would be more natural for the frog, and after the initial setup, less maintenance.......But I wasn't aware of the cycling process. Thanks for changing my mind!

[Scottyhorse]

Besides, ADA substrate is SOOO expensive. I also have planted aquariums, and I think it's way overpriced for what it's worth.

[deranged chipmunk]

agreed. but for those who like to be "trendy", more power to them. personally, i prefer to go cheap on substrates, kitty litter, blasting sand, pond gravel, dirt.....lol