Tadpole Metmorphosing and Died?

[Sugar]

Hi,

I have a trio of Red Eyed Tree frogs (A. callidryas) who are several years old. They have started reproducing without any effort on my part. We're on clutch three. The first tadpole from clutch one climbed had out of the water today before I went to work, and seemed to be working on tail absorption. I came home to find it has died and was dead in the water with most of its tail absorbed. I am really not sure how to figure out what's wrong.

I've tried searching for an explanation without success.

Does this tadpole look normal to you?


Please help, I really don't want to lose the others.

Thanks in advance!

[flybyferns]

Hi,
Congratulations.

The water could be too deep ?
Make a ramp/beach/really easy access out of the water.

You could even make the water all the tads are in more shallow.

Once they are 'out' - with a wet gloved hand , I would move the tad into another tank with VERY( soppy) dampened paper towel substrate.
( de-chlorinated water only )

It's a tough time for them.

Have pin head crickets or hydei fruit flies ....ready to go.

So cute ! I'm so sorry he didn't make it Hang in there !

Let me know how you make out.
Give Cory a shout? PM him ( View Profile: CJ PELCHER - Frog Forum )
If he is not on really soon - got to his web-site and contact or call him !

Lynn

[UncleChester]

Drowning does seem likely. When they have 4 legs, it is best for them to be in extremely shallow water.

You should always give a 'drowned' froglet a chance to recover. It is very possible for them to appear completely lifeless and still make it. Weak vital signs on a tiny froglet are nearly impossible to detect.

[CJ PELCHER]

Hey Sugar, this thread was brought to my attention.

I have some advice, Once a tadpole has 4 legs and has merged himself out of water you no longer need to keep him/her in an water environment. Put the little guy(s) in a 10 gallon vertical tank with lots of green leafy plants for him to jump on. I actually pull my froglets out of water as soon as they have 4 legs even if they havnt climbed out yet. (you will notice they GULP air to take their first breath like a baby. (this is normal) Unfortunatly based on the tail being in the state its in he will no longer be able to swim to a rescue point. A froglet stage is the weekest point in a frogs life. (This is when they die the easiest) They do not swim as well as juvenile/adult frogs and will drown MUCH faster.

***They will not need WATER for about 1 week other than a small dish that has 1/4 inches of water in it. They will not even step foot in the water bowl for about a week after coming out of the water if you mist the environment enough. (2-4 TIMES a day)****

As far as feeding I know im volunteering information you didnt ask for but I'd like to prevent another problem from arrising.
FEEDING: Froglets will not eat until the tail is completely absorbed. For feeding little guys you can start putting flightless fruitflies dusted with calcium as soon as you see the tail is absorbed. I would also put dusted pinhead crickets as well on the 3-4th day. (DO NOT BE AFRAID to but a large amount of pinheads in there 15-25/frog) They will eat EVERY NIGHT once they start feeding. Pinheads also wont harm your little guys either by biting them. After 1-2 weeks you will no longer need fruitflies. Just pinheads. Once you start seeing RED eye development its getting to that time to increase cricket size (smalls). I hope I was able to help you. =/ Im sorry for your first froglet loss. Feel free to call me about any questions you may have. My number is on my website: www.cjsfrogs.com
Best of luck with your other soon to be froglets =)

-Corey

[Sugar]

Thank you all SO SO much for replying and so quickly.

Hi,
Congratulations.

The water could be too deep ?
Make a ramp/beach/really easy access out of the water.

You could even make the water all the tads are in more shallow.

Once they are 'out' - with a wet gloved hand , I would move the tad into another tank with VERY( soppy) dampened paper towel substrate.
( de-chlorinated water only )

It's a tough time for them.

Have pin head crickets or hydei fruit flies ....ready to go.

So cute ! I'm so sorry he didn't make it Hang in there !

Let me know how you make out.
Give Cory a shout? PM him ( View Profile: CJ PELCHER - Frog Forum )
If he is not on really soon - got to his web-site and contact or call him !

Lynn

Hey Lynn!
Thank you for the congratulations, I feel really lucky to be experiencing this. I made the water the tads are in more shallow. I think it may still be a little too deep (~6 inches deep) but I have quite a few tadpoles in it and don't want to decrease the water volume too much with gravel, especially considering the three clutches that should be dropping at the end of the week. However, they now have several places from which they can crawl out instead of just one large area.

Apparently, I was going about this the wrong way. I made the assumption that the tadpoles would find the climbing out spots when the need arose and that they would not fall back in, and additionally, that they would be able to climb out onto the glass. Apparently not. After reading what you folks have posted I'm pretty positive this tadpole drowned and that is just devastating because it could have been prevented. I feel just awful. This is the first tadpole I've lost.

Here's the tank. It's a 90 gallon with about 50 gallons of water. The water level as it's pictured is after I reduced the depth to about six inches.

Drowning does seem likely. When they have 4 legs, it is best for them to be in extremely shallow water.

You should always give a 'drowned' froglet a chance to recover. It is very possible for them to appear completely lifeless and still make it. Weak vital signs on a tiny froglet are nearly impossible to detect.

My drowned froglet is still in the same spot I left it after pulling it out. I'm pretty sure it didn't make it. This is incredibly frustrating.

Hey Sugar, this thread was brought to my attention.

I have some advice, Once a tadpole has 4 legs and has merged himself out of water you no longer need to keep him/her in an water environment. Put the little guy(s) in a 10 gallon vertical tank with lots of green leafy plants for him to jump on. I actually pull my froglets out of water as soon as they have 4 legs even if they havent climbed out yet. (you will notice they GULP air to take their first breath like a baby. (this is normal) Unfortunatly based on the tail being in the state its in he will no longer be able to swim to a rescue point. A froglet stage is the weekest point in a frogs life. (This is when they die the easiest) They do not swim as well as juvenile/adult frogs and will drown MUCH faster.

***They will not need WATER for about 1 week other than a small dish that has 1/4 inches of water in it. They will not even step foot in the water bowl for about a week after coming out of the water if you mist the environment enough. (2-4 TIMES a day)****

As far as feeding I know im volunteering information you didnt ask for but I'd like to prevent another problem from arrising.
FEEDING: Froglets will not eat until the tail is completely absorbed. For feeding little guys you can start putting flightless fruitflies dusted with calcium as soon as you see the tail is absorbed. I would also put dusted pinhead crickets as well on the 3-4th day. (DO NOT BE AFRAID to but a large amount of pinheads in there 15-25/frog) They will eat EVERY NIGHT once they start feeding. Pinheads also wont harm your little guys either by biting them. After 1-2 weeks you will no longer need fruitflies. Just pinheads. Once you start seeing RED eye development its getting to that time to increase cricket size (smalls). I hope I was able to help you. =/ Im sorry for your first froglet loss. Feel free to call me about any questions you may have. My number is on my website: www.cjsfrogs.com
Best of luck with your other soon to be froglets =)

-Corey

Hi Corey,

Thank you SO much for your information. Just to be clear, if these tadpoles have all four legs, I can pull them out? That is such a relief. I think I almost lost the second tadpole to drowning too. I walked in after reading all of the replies to find it gasping for air underwater, and rushed to pull it out. I already had the first froglet tank set up, so I netted him and moved him in. He wasn't exactly responsive at first, but he's moving around now thank goodness. He's still quite brown, but I'm assuming this is normal.

To be clear, the froglet tank need not be partially submerged right? I have a layer of substrate with a nice drainage layer in it, and am keeping the humidity high--- misting 3 to 4 times per day with minimized ventilation. The ambient temperature in the room is about 75 to 80*F and about 30% to 40% humidity.

Please volunteer any information you think is important! I really don't want to kill the other frogs. Thank you for the info about feeding. I decided to offer fruit flies prior to posting and am really glad to hear that's the way to go. Initially I was going to just offer pinheads.

I have three more froglets that should be budding arms today, so I'll move them as soon as I see the arms are complete.

Do you add vitamin and mineral supplements to the water? I haven't been but was planning to start doing so today. I feed spirulina/algae tabs, there's plentiful algae in the water, and I offer tropical fish food everyday.

Thank you so much!

Some photos of number two in the ten gallon froglet tank.
Yellow toe pads, but brown otherwise. Initially where I set it on the tadpole-tank-water drenched paper towel.


Then it moved! Ah this is stressful and not as easy as it seems like it should be.




Here's clutch three--- three egg masses laid on a leaf, and one laid on the glass. I'm seeing tads in almost all of the eggs today and these were laid two days ago I think.

As you can imagine, I've been struggling with weird yellow mold. It's been killing my eggs. I read that Tetra Black Water extract is helpful in preventing mold. What do you think I should do? Can I use the black water extract concentrated to spray the eggs? I'm getting some today. Also, I have methylene blue too, if you think that would be better.

How can I protect the health of my females through the egg-laying? I have a two females and one male and feed 100 to 200 large crickets per week, two meals are dusted in calcium plus d3 and the third meal is dusted in Repashy's Supervite (multivitamin supplement).








~Aja

[flybyferns]

Hi,
If most of the tads have backs and or noticeably developed fronts; I believe the water is still too deep.
They need more areas tho get out of the water onto land and plants.
Make it really easy for them.

If you see all four .....physically remove them as mentioned so thy can not accidentally get back into the water.

Lynn

[Sugar]

Hi Lynn,

Most of the tadpoles are lacking all four limbs. It's just the five that aren't. I've been watching them closely and will be removing the last two well-developed tads today.

The two I removed yesterday seemed to be doing well last night, and now I can't find the spunky one, and the other is no longer green but brown and seems to be struggling.

I am assuming the green spunky individual is holed up sleeping on one of the plants. The other tad who was turning green but is now brown is in the same spot I saw him in last night and seems to be having a hard time moving around. He's gasping and doesn't seem to be able to control his back legs well.

Any ideas?

[Sugar]

Well it's too late, they both died. I just moved the fourth froglet out of the tad tank to the terrestrial tank. I'm using coconut fiber as a substrate. Could this be the cause of their demise?

[CJ PELCHER]

Sugar called me and i gave her a few suggestions.
After talking to her for about 20 minutes and learning her procedures I am led to an educated guess she has a bad batch.
For her last 3 remaining I mentioned a hospital tank standard with tap water /brita filter and REPTI-SAFE from ZOOMED which she carried on hand- OR- Bottled water with electrolytes. To be very honest her procedures are all followed well and her responses were above standard and were at the intermediate levels of frog keeping. She will be getting in touch with me on the remaining 3 tadpoles she has left and their progress.

[Sugar]

Thanks Corey!

I transferred froglet 04 to the hospital tank as per your recommendations. I didn't have a critter keeper so I used a small glass 5 gallon tank. I disinfected the tank with a dilute bleach solution (2 cap fulls per gallon) and effectively removed any traces of bleach with hot water. I filtered the froglet's water with a new Brita filter and added Reptisafe a little over the label dilution rate. I used 1/2 teaspoon for 1 gallon instead of 1/4 teaspoon per 1.25 gallons to wet the clean paper towels. The paper towels were plain, lacking any design. I then used the label dilution rate to make up the water I used to mist the tank (14 drops per 1.5 liters).

Here are some photos:

Froglet 04 (from clutch one) just after netting from the tadpole tank. He was netted and removed within two hours of budding limb 04 completely.




Hospital tank:


It appears to be turning green.


It's lying in kind of a weird position, but he had just moved.


I was getting readings on my Acurite (digital hygrometer) of about 83*F inside of the tank and 84*F outside in the room, so I moved the tank into the room with the tadpole tank to keep the temp down. Given these readings, there is a possibility the other tadpoles may have been too warm. I took ambient air temp readings in the room in which the first froglets were contained throughout each day and never got a reading over 80*F, but who knows.

Adults:
Female who laid the eggs


Male


***WARNING!!! SAD PICS!!! ****

Does anything about these froglets look abnormal?
Froglets 02 and 03 alive and starting to turn green.




Dead froglets 02 and 03

[CJ PELCHER]

Try to get the temp down to higher 70s ... but i don't see it being a problem in the low 80s. Froglet 2 -3 look fine actually. Still unsure of the Cause of death. Keep us posted daily please.

[Sugar]

oh also, this is the first clutch produced by the male and female. Initially, it looked like only the lower half of one of the two egg masses was fertile. Most of the fertile egg mass was lost to mold, and only 6 tadpoles dropped. One of the 6 was derpy and didn't make it, and these metamorphosing froglets are the 5 that survived initially. Of the five: 01 drown, 02 and 03 died in the tail absorption tank, 04 is in the hospital tank, and 05 should be budding arms today.

Clutch 02 (three eggs masses) seemed almost entirely fertile but was infected by the same devastating mold. Of the 100+ eggs, 10 tadpoles dropped and none have died. They should be budding legs next week.

I am currently on clutch 03 (four egg masses - three on a leaf, one on the glass). Virtually all but maybe a dozen or so eggs are fertile. These tadpoles (in eggs) are significantly more active than those in the other clutches. I am treating the eggs twice a day with a dilute solution of Tetra Black Water extract. No mold so far. I am going to be so mad if these become infected too!

Rearing tadpoles is a lot more complicated in action than it is in theory.

[Sugar]

Try to get the temp down to higher 70s ... but i don't see it being a problem in the low 80s. Froglet 2 -3 look fine actually. Still unsure of the Cause of death. Keep us posted daily please.

The temperature is currently 79*F and the humidity is reading at 88%. I'll keep everyone posted. And thank you everyone for all of your help!

[Sugar]

Update:

Froglet 04 has died. One tadpole remains from clutch one, and he hasn't yet budded arms. I was expecting him to do so today, but I'm not so sure now.

I'm looking into having some tests done for chytrid and ranavirus, as per Corey's recommendations.

The tadpoles from clutch two all seem to be doing very well.

Here are some photos of clutch 03. The eggs laid on the glass in the adults' tank didn't survive the adults. They've all been knocked into the pond. Most of the eggs laid on the leaf seem fertile and all of the fertile eggs contain tadpoles who have just sprouted external gills!

I'm still treating with black water extract and I'm not seeing any mold yet.