What Makes Thumbnails "Intermediate"

[Helios]

In continuing to look into keeping dart frogs, the feedback I've got on my enclosure size suggests thumbnails are likely the best choice. I'm curious though, what aspect of their care leads them to being considered intermediate? Is it simply that they require a smaller gradient of humidity and are more delicate? I have plenty of experience keeping reptiles, but not as much with amphibians, so this is something I was very curious about with this species. Thanks!

[flybyferns]

Hello,
What species of thumbnail are you referring to?

I have R imitator 'Varadero'.
Yes, It is very important to maintain proper temp and humidity settings for all PDFs. ( as for any frog )
However, I wold have to say (I think ) my imitators are easier to care for then my tree frogs !

Thoughts?

Lynn

[Helios]

Hi Lynn,

At this point I hadn't pinned down a specific species yet but I've been looking the morphs that tend toward the yellow/black with the speckled legs. Haha I don't remember the names off hand. Still, everything I've read on care sheets classifies the thumbnails as intermediate- thus is mostly on sites selling them, but then there's no details about what they're gauging that by.
my thoughts were that if it's purely the environmental factors in the enclosure that's not as intimidating.

[Mentat]

Hello Helios! Was going to answer your thread earlier but then got sidetracked for a while. I've not kept Thumbnails but have researched them for a while before deciding on one and building a vivarium for them.

More than their specific temperature and humidity requirements, think the "intermediate" care classification is related to their stressful nature. From what I read; Thumbnail Dart frogs are easily stressed and will die from it in a matter of days. Reading about it reminded me of some delicate salt water fish that when handled improperly will die immediately of an acute stress attack. Also, they are very territorial and if one in a group is ostracized and hobbyist does not notice; that frog is doomed in a few days. Hope this helps !

[Helios]

Ah ok makes sense. I'm planning to do a pretty thorough build in a 12" x 12" x 18" and spend a great deal of time establishing the microclimate before I get the frogs themselves. I looked at John Clare's step by step and that gave me some ideas as to what I'm wanting to do. ie 4 to 6 months.
While I don't have as much experience with amphibians I do keep cresteds and while hardy they do have sensitivity to temps and humidity, so I feel like if that's the basis with thumbnail's being intermediate I'd be all right. Are you in the process of getting your vivarium going?

[Mentat]

... Are you in the process of getting your vivarium going?

No, just researching and observing the economy right now . Will hopefully build it early next year and get frogs in Spring .

[Helios]

No, just researching and observing the economy right now . Will hopefully build it early next year and get frogs in Spring .

Cool! Since the timeline I'm on is similar I'd be interested in seeing/hearing how it's gong for you. That similar to what I'm thinking, although I may start the build within the next month or so.

[tylototriton]

They're considered "intermediate" for a few reasons; but like Lynn said, I think darts are easier than tree frogs in sooo many ways.

For the purpose of my response i'll only consider why thumbnails (typically in the genus Ranitomeya) are different than larger dart frogs.
~They require smaller food sources. All will at the very biggest probably only eat D. melanogaster. Some may really only ever be able to eat springtails and young isopods. Fortunately, D. melanogaster are easier to culture than any other fruit flies.
~They should eat slightly more often. Because of their small size they can't store much in the way of energy reserves. They also tend to be highly active. This means that despite their small size, they eat quite a bit and should be fed often.
~They benefit from a dynamic vivarium; you should have lots of leaf litter and plant life at all levels. Many thumbnails will use the entire tank. Larger species may not need much in the way of variety in height.
~They can be incredibly skittish. I keep several species. Some are quite active and always visible, others I may only see once every 10 days (that sucks).
~Breeding can be slightly more difficult. Many thumbnails won't be breeding in coco huts with petri dishes. Some will use film cans, others may need deep leaf litter or bromeliads.
~Raising young can be tricky. Like many darts, springtails are a must for young animals. If you're buying from a good breeder they should already be eating full sized melanos. Be very careful, recently I have seen many for sale from less reputable people that are still eating springtails.

All that being said, I really don't think they're more difficult. They have some quirks, mostly depending on species. It sounds like you're talking about R. vanzolini. They are beautiful and I think they make great captives, but they can also be very secretive. Of my 3, only my dominant male will stay out when i'm near the tank. He and the other male will call at all times of day, particularly heavily at dawn and dusk though, so that's nice.

Cheers,
Alex

[Helios]

Thanks Alex,

That pretty well breaks down the logistics I was wondering about. The two outlets I've been looking closely at are Josh's Frogs and the Dart Frog Connection. Do you know much about either?

[Helios]

Also: I'm beginning to lean toward R. Imitator (nominant or veradero), R. Ventrimiculata, or something along those lines in terms of the general appearance of the patterning and color.

[tylototriton]

Imitators are great frogs! I loved mine. I would recommend them over Vents. Frankly however, either are a good choice. And as for a source, feel free to PM me. Overall, check out testimonials. Also, consider finding a small scale breeder. The founder of this website occasionally sells his offspring here. Smaller breeders can give you lots of personalized attention and often have great stock.

[Helios]

Imitators are great frogs! I loved mine. I would recommend them over Vents. Frankly however, either are a good choice. And as for a source, feel free to PM me. Overall, check out testimonials. Also, consider finding a small scale breeder. The founder of this website occasionally sells his offspring here. Smaller breeders can give you lots of personalized attention and often have great stock.

Just curious: Why imitators over vents?

[tylototriton]

In general I think that Imitators are bolder than Vents. I think adult Imitators are larger as well. They're both fine choices though.

~Alex

[frogfreaks]

They're considered "intermediate" for a few reasons; but like Lynn said, I think darts are easier than tree frogs in sooo many ways.

For the purpose of my response i'll only consider why thumbnails (typically in the genus Ranitomeya) are different than larger dart frogs.
~They require smaller food sources. All will at the very biggest probably only eat D. melanogaster. Some may really only ever be able to eat springtails and young isopods. Fortunately, D. melanogaster are easier to culture than any other fruit flies.
~They should eat slightly more often. Because of their small size they can't store much in the way of energy reserves. They also tend to be highly active. This means that despite their small size, they eat quite a bit and should be fed often.
~They benefit from a dynamic vivarium; you should have lots of leaf litter and plant life at all levels. Many thumbnails will use the entire tank. Larger species may not need much in the way of variety in height.
~They can be incredibly skittish. I keep several species. Some are quite active and always visible, others I may only see once every 10 days (that sucks).
~Breeding can be slightly more difficult. Many thumbnails won't be breeding in coco huts with petri dishes. Some will use film cans, others may need deep leaf litter or bromeliads.
~Raising young can be tricky. Like many darts, springtails are a must for young animals. If you're buying from a good breeder they should already be eating full sized melanos. Be very careful, recently I have seen many for sale from less reputable people that are still eating springtails.

All that being said, I really don't think they're more difficult. They have some quirks, mostly depending on species. It sounds like you're talking about R. vanzolini. They are beautiful and I think they make great captives, but they can also be very secretive. Of my 3, only my dominant male will stay out when i'm near the tank. He and the other male will call at all times of day, particularly heavily at dawn and dusk though, so that's nice.

Cheers,
Alex

Alex, you really nailed it with this post! I would like to add a couple of things. They are lightning fast and if they start to go down hill, there's not much you can do about it.

That said, I agree tree frogs are more difficult.