2 new builds, primary is 12x12x18

p51mustang23 · March 14th, 2014

So, I've been out of the game for a while. About 5 years. I've owned Bufo Americanus, green tree frogs, and green anoles in the past. Mundane, but good animals. In the last few years I've gotten involved in the Landscape and Horticulture industries, so I want to create a vivarium with some absolutely excellent planting selections. As far as plants go I have an excellent grasp on how to make just about anything grow, although I'm not familiar with most of the plants that go into a vivarium specifically (I can name most plants native to New England, but outside of NE I can't name a damn thing).

Now, I have no idea how to do the hardscape work that goes into a vivarium, although I've browsed a few threads and I see that there seems to be an accepted standard way of doing this. This is what I need the most help with. At the moment I'm interested in how to build the bottom of the tank to hold water, and how to set up filtration, pumps, etc.

My Goal: I want to have a 12x12x18 exoterra vivarium on my desk with a couple dart frogs. I know it's a small space, but I also know that something small built perfectly can compensate for lack of size. I also imagine that some subspecies will do just fine in this space. I would like to have a mini water feature. It will be my first custom build, but not my first time owning an amphibian. This build will be put together slowly so that I have time to think my way through each phase of construction.

This setup will be of reasonably high quality, I think I can invest up to $200 -$250 into it, but if I get it into my head that I want to spend more then I will

. I think this is a lot considering it is a small tank. Right off the bat water & lighting needs to be automated. I used to do both manually and it was hard to do at the right time. Over time I can add more to it, ie. a heating solution for winter (spring will be in full swing before any frogs get into here).

The intention is not just to make a place that can keep frogs alive, but to make a wholesome piece which is both awesome to look at and awesome to live in (you know, for a frog). I need some help picking up the fundamentals of how to build a good custom setup before I start buying things.

Finally, I should say that I'm really into permaculture. With regard to gardening and food production, that means that a system is able to produce with little to no outside outside input / maintenance. For the vivarium, i think that means a system that can produce most of it's food from within. I want a system where food insects will reproduce in a sustainable or close to sustainable fashion. I will also try to implement organic soil into the terrarium in order to help break down waste and nurture plants, although I suppose some de-pooping will always be necessary.

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#2 I might also build a plant-only terrarium with one of the 10G aquarium tanks I have lying around. I'm not sure what direction i will go with this yet exactly, but this tank will focus on super exotic and interesting plants. This project, if i undertake it, will not begin until the first is completed.

There's so much more I could say, but no one wants to read a book. Ask me for what info you need. *edit* also, whats the deal with PDF's and their poison and handling them

lol Yes, I know, some personal research is on the way don't worry...

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p51mustang23 · March 15th, 2014

The concept of what I want to do is starting to come together. I'm starting to look into species selection, and I'm leaning towards arboreal darts as they can make better use of the vertical space in a small tank, but there are still some terrestrials I'm looking at. I don't want tiny thumbnails, but I can't accomadate large frogs in an 11 gallon either. Looking for a medium species that is small tank OK.

As for the tank, I went out and saw it in person. I don't think the water feature can be anything more than a constant background drip or a mister. I'd like to have water in the false bottom circulating, but I'm not sure how to do that without an internal pump which will take up space I don't have.

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**deranged chipmunk** · March 15th, 2014

Sorry, came in a bit late here. Seems like you answered your own questions. A 12x12, regardless of height, doesn't allow much room for equipment. There are small pumps you can use that only require a few inches of water, you just need to shop around on it.

Honestly, thumbnails are the best bet for that small of a tank, darts may be small, but they like a lot of territory. Forget any terrestrial species, the tank is just too small.

p51mustang23 · March 15th, 2014

Originally Posted by deranged chipmunk

Sorry, came in a bit late here. Seems like you answered your own questions. A 12x12, regardless of height, doesn't allow much room for equipment. There are small pumps you can use that only require a few inches of water, you just need to shop around on it.

Honestly, thumbnails are the best bet for that small of a tank, darts may be small, but they like a lot of territory. Forget any terrestrial species, the tank is just too small.

Thanks for the input. The facts seem to point to thumbnails as the best choice. I have my eyes on d. amazonica as they are beautiful frogs. Anyone know how big they are? It can be hard to find specific info on the many species.

Any ideas on how to ensure getting a breeding pair? I'll set up a larger palludarium if I can get them to breed. That's on the long range radar though...

Also are all thumbnails arboreal/ semi arboreal?
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p51mustang23 · March 18th, 2014

Well, I've had a ton of time to do research and research each individual aspect of this build. So, I'm going to put down my thoughts and allow everyone to tell me what they think. Also i promise this will become a right proper build thread including pics soon enough!

So here's my thoughts:
-I'm going to go with a layer of LECA, covered with screen. In the front 1-2" there will be no LECA, maybe just some aquarium rocks. This will allow for a small pond, which more importantly serves as access for draining water. Possible site for tank raised tads too.
-I'm going to use a standard exo-terra hood with a Jungle Dawn LED (9w,11w,or13w). Anyone have an opinion on these? Is 9w plenty for an 11G tank? Price is the same for all wattages.
-I will use the Great Stuff method for a background and partially cover the sides, perhaps 3-4" forward. Lots of little broms for the little guys.
-I'd like to use a basic MistKing mister. I know its pretty hardcore for one 11g, but it looks high quality and will allow for future expansion as necessary. The cheaper alternatives looks questionable.
-I'm thinking I'd like R. Imitator "Varedero" at this point. R. Amazonica's look nice too, but I hear they are more shy. There is a reptile / amphibian show on May 18 in Boston, and I may try to get 2 young adult frogs (1.1) there.

My remaining questions:
-Where should I source some nice wood from? What kinds are best?
-My house can get cold in the winter. Heating is the one thing I have yet to research. What is the best method for this? Getting a heating pad + thermostat looks real pricey.

**DigitalPunk** · March 19th, 2014

Hey, late to this thread. Been lurking but have failed to respond.

- Leca - Be sure to hide a tube (PVC works great) in the spray foam background so you can syphon water out of the drainage layer. It will make your life a lot easier as time goes on. You can then stick a small tube down the PVC pipe with a sponge on the end of it and syphon the water out. Leca is usually recommended to be 1 - 2in, but you need to be careful with the small tank height that you don't chew up 4 or 5 inches of space with the substrate. You will also need to keep in mind that if you are going to do a small pond the Leca layer will need to be a bit higher than the top of the waterline to keep the water from swamping the soil. I would recommend against a water feature in the tank to conserver space, but that is just my 2 cents.

- Lighting - 9W for a 12x12 should be plenty.

- Spray Foam - Keep in mind it will expand so be careful how thick you lay it on. Anything you do will shrink the usable floor space for your little frogs. Keep in mind if you add 1 to 2 inches to the back wall you have reduced the floor to a 10x12 square. If you then do a 1 to 2 inch water feature then you will be left with a 8x12 square. If you add foam to the sides you could end up with a 8x8 square which is to small for even thumbnail frogs. You could consider doing a planted terrarium and using some wood to create hight and tie bromeliads to them.

- The Mistking will be a huge overkill to the tank. I love my mistaking, but in a true dart frog tank with near 0% ventilation the humidity will stay high and you will really only be misting to keep the plants growing. I use a hand mister on my Dart tank and my Mantella tank. The humidity in both stays very high all the time so misting them once in the morning and once right before lights out is perfect.

- Wood - I love the wood selection at NEHERP Give them a look. Ghost Wood, Manzanati, Malaysian Driftwood, and Cork Bark all hold up in high humidity. Grapevine is awful and should be avoided in humid tanks. They will mold very quickly. Cork bark will develop white mold nearly instantly, but it is normal and will clear up after a few days. The Driftwood is by far my favorite.

- Heating - There are a lot of options out there. My Favorite is now using Aquatic heaters, but in your setup a Ceramic Heat emitter will work great. It doesn't dry out the air, provides 24/7 heat without generating any light, and are cost efficient to use. You can use them in conjunction with Zoo Med Hydrotherm.

Sorry for the information overload. I'll answer any questions you have that I can and can't wait to see how the build turns out!

Paul

p51mustang23 · March 19th, 2014

First of all, thanks for the response. I'm going to chop your quote up in order to respond. Everything I write is just me trying to give you my thought process.