Low UVB bulb recommendation?

[elly]

I know this is controversial, but I would like to provide my frogs with low UVB light. (And I'll be sure to have it shining through the screen top, not the glass.) Honestly the huge array out there of grow-lights, heat lights, full spectrum and so on is confusing.

I already have Josh Frogs LED gro light in the top, but I think those don't have UVB? At least there would probably be some indication if they did.

I'd just like a small lightbulb sized bulb that gives the smallest possible output of UVB. Under 100 Watts would be good but under 150W would be acceptable.

[privet01]

IMO.....It's not really a question of UVA/UVB. Neither is of any use for growing any live plants you have in your viv. So my considerations for lighting are these:

1. Does the light and/or its fixture add too much heat to the viv? If it does, can I mitigate that someway?

2. What spectrum light works best for the plant you have? Buy the light that keeps your plants growing! Don't use more lighting than the plants need.

3. Do my frogs/toads normally live in a brightly lit environment? If not then pick low light plants. For either, you should have shady areas for them anyway.

4. Flourescent tubes still are the cheaper way to go.... again, IMO. They are so cheap, you can try the different spectrum bulbs out to see which you like better. Though LED's are getting cheaper and run cooler, they tend to be low quality and quit working sooner. But part of the last statement is based on some I tried years ago, no recent experience. Probably all your lighting will be cheaper at the big box home centers or a big discount store. You can just by the bare fixture and bulbs and make your own mount.

Oh.... getting back to the UVA/UVB thing..... The Sun puts out plenty. Their ancestors lived in a natural environment which included the UVA/UVB from the Sun. But if you have a choice, get the light that puts out the lower amounts of either, if it meets your other needs for growing plants. But as I said originally, UVA/UVB is of no value IMO.

[elly]

I'm happy with my LED growing lights, I'd just like to try UVB. Specifically, a bulb with the lowest UVB possible. I was just asking for any specific recommendations for low light UVB bulbs of normal lightbulb size.


Once again, I know the issue is controversial, and "frogs shouldn't need UVB" is a reasonable conclusion, I'd just like to try a little light supplementation.

[privet01]

Most all lights that are intended for normal lighting are low UV. Sure some are lower than others, but the difference is very little when you look at what the scale of too much vs none is. Fluorescent lights which I use probably put out the most, but it's still negligible IMO. Normal LED lights are typically lower to almost none.

The hard part about trying to provide a light recommendation is that simply saying you want a low uvb bulb doesn't really let us know anything. We really need to know what the purpose is for the light. Is it for basking, overall lighting, to provide warmth or do you need something that produces little heat, etc, etc, etc.

I still don't really understand your question though. Are you wanting to try out fluorescent grow lights and the color rating and UV stuff is concerning you?

[tgampper]

Actually UVB may be a vital consideration in maintaining the good health of certain species of frogs and toads. I have learned during my time as an amphibian keeper at the Omaha Zoo that many species of amphibians require UVB basking areas. I use a 50 watt UVB bulb for my frogs and toads and they are thriving especially my fire-belly toads. Here are the links to a couple of articles that I highly recommend:
‎www.amphibianark.org/pdf/Husbandry/Amphibian%20diet%20nutrition.pdf
‎www.amphibianark.org/pdf/Husbandry/Amphibian%20UV-B%20and%20Vitamin%20D3.pdf

[Krispy]

Turtle lights work awsome. Coil type. They put off the same uvb(supposedly) but do not get as bright(or hot) as your typical lighting options. We have always used them for our heap o firebellies.

Grow lights come in a variety of options/prices. Be warned: theyre usually UVA heavy, and produce almost no UVB. Ive got mountains of hydrofarm equipment laying around we used to use till discovering this. Now, its just a pile of stainless steel and expensive bulbs collecting dust. A big pile...

[privet01]

Actually UVB may be a vital consideration in....................

Here are the links to a couple of articles that I highly recommend:
‎www.amphibianark.org/pdf/Husbandry/Amphibian%20diet%20nutrition.pdf
‎www.amphibianark.org/pdf/Husbandry/Amphibian%20UV-B%20and%20Vitamin%20D3.pdf

Thx for the links. There was some pretty good information in there and food for thought. The really interesting thing to me is that to a varying degree, some frogs/toads might see down into the uv spectrum. This begs the question for FBT's which typically are considered as having poor quality eyesight...... will UV light help them see crickets and other feeders better?

As for your mention of basking light, do you feel it was the UVB in the basking light that directly affected them in a positive way, or was it just the warmth provided by the light? Most any light that is intended to produce heat will typically produce UVA/B as well as infrared. Though there are very high dollar lights that can be had to produce what ever spectrum you want.

Still I would caution anyone that suddenly thinks they need to include a basking light in they viv to consider the size of their viv and ask themselves if their viv is large enough handle the extra heat. Particularly if they have frogs/toads from temperate climates such as the fire-belly. I don't think my ten-gallon viv can support the heat from a basking light. If I ever get motivated enough to build out the large exxo-terra habitat that has been sitting empty for well over six months, I will probably include a basking light in it as the size should be able to handle the extra heat.

[elly]

Thanks for the links.
I realize my question wasn't very clear. I was looking for a recommendation both for a heatless bulb and a heated one.

I wasn't able to figure out whether my gro-lights produced UVB or how much. After doing a little research I figured out they probably don't produce much or any UVB, so I was considering supplementing them with a UVB bulb. (Or else, replacing them with full spectrum bulbs that fit in an exo-terra hood. If they go in the hood instead of the heat-lamp they can't be heated though.)


A basking bulb sounds too intense for a small frog tank. (18x18x24 Exo-Terra)

[tgampper]

I really appreciate discussion on this topic. There isn't much research done on amphibian care and nutrition. For years, I was under the impression that amphibians did not need UVB or for that matter any type of lighting. My experiences at the zoo proved me wrong. Obviously, some species of frogs and toads are nocturnal and probably do not need special lighting. Others, like FBTs are diurnal and active during daylight hours. Any animal active during the day is going to receive some UVB from the sun. The right amount of UVB along with vitamins and minerals will protect the from from Metabolic Bone Disease and Short Tongue Syndrome, the inability to use the tongue to capture prey. Also, some frogs available in the pet trade may need basking or hot spots. Some species of Chironantis and Phyllomedusa have been known to bask in direct sunlight as air temperatures exceed 100 degrees(F). Frog keepers need to understand the natural behaviors of their frogs or toads and provide for them accordingly. I believe that UVB should be used in terrariums housing daylight active amphibians.

[tgampper]

Here is an interesting study concerning the mountain chicken frog and how UVB played a part in their survival.
http://www.amphibianark.org/pdf/Husb...quirements.pdf

[privet01]

Then I suppose I shouldn't feel bad about sticking to my "old fashioned" fluorescent lights. They do provide some UV-B for a very inexpensive price as opposed to purchasing the more modern and expensive LED lights that typically have little to no UV-A or UV-B and must have even more expense added to them to produce UV-B.

It was good to see that there has been some research that indicates FBT's and other frogs/toads apparently do synthesize vitamin D3 from exposure to UV-B. Also the mention that dietary supplementation of D3 and calcium may be inadequate on their own. And as I write this I see my FBT's are on top the big flat rock in the viv that probably puts them in the best location to get the strongest dose of light. Though typically they are in the water.

[Diver]

Elly, if you have the light canopy on your Exo Terra, you're looking for a 'compact flourescent E27' style of bulb. Companies like Exo Terra, Arcadia etc all do them in a range of wattage and UVB output. Something around 20w and 5% UVB would be ideal for that cage size in addition to your LED. Smallest are around 13w and 2%.

http://arcadia-reptile.com/fluorescent-compact-lamps/

If the bulb or tube doesn't specifically say 'UVB' and the percentage, than it doesn't output ANY. They are a specialist item made with special glass etc.

As far as the provision of UVB for frogs is concerned, I made a thread in the tree frog section here:

http://www.frogforum.net/showthread.php?t=35252

Now are now many scientific studies in addition to the one Terry mentions that demonstrate that UVB should be provided for frogs (especially nocturnal species!) unless they literally never see the sun in the wild And of course that D3 dietary supplementation is both ineffective and potentially dangerous.

It's a hugely important subject that sadly many are unaware of, feel free to contribute to the thread!

[privet01]

Elly, if you have the light canopy on your Exo Terra,............

Definitely "kudos" for the most direct answer to the OP's question. Have not gone through all the material you linked in the other thread. I'm wondering though how much of the UV-B studies were on developing frogs/toads as opposed to what I think most of us consider an adult frog/toad.

For instance, metabolic bone disease as I've understood it in the past is a result of poor nutrition and vitamin D production while in the developmental stages and is difficult for your average person to notice until it's too late and usually this is after adulthood is achieved. So if the frog/toad is already an adult with no metabolic bone disease or other vitD deficiancy, does the UV-B matter that much. Certainly we all want them to be as healthy as possible, but to what point do we over think this and ignore other issues?

[Diver]

It's certainly a valid point that calcium deficiencies are a bigger problem in growing frogs and it's fair to say that adult frogs who have had the correct exposure while growing up may be a lot healthier having laid down the correct foundation (which could be at least part of the reason that some people are convinced that UVB isn't necessary - they haven't had wide enough experience with raising frogs). However, as Dr Ivan Alfonso explains in this thread it is also important for adults for varying reasons including egg production:

http://www.frogforum.net/showthread.php?t=24225

I would suggest that calcium deficiencies therefore are less noticeable in adult frogs, but they can be deficient nevertheless. In addition though, the benefits of UVB are not of course just limited to the production of D3, the general health and well-being of pretty much every creature on the planet is improved by exposure to sunlight or at least as close as we can artificially re-create it.

[privet01]

Diver and tgampper...... you both have given quite a lot of material for me to digest. I never ran across anything so informative in my casual searches on the subject. I see I might have to re-adjust my thinking somewhat.

[tgampper]

I have been keeping frogs and toads for over 50 years and I never thought that amphibians needed special lighting. I learned so much working at the zoo. Some species that I worked with were the Puerto Rican crested toad, Wyoming toad (extinct in the wild), the Panamanian Golden toad, several species of Mantella, reed frogs and other Madagascar species, plus the awesome hellbenders and Japanese giant salamanders. All but the salamanders had UVB lighting or some sort of basking area.

Often times certain species of toads need a dose of vitamin A to prevent Short Tongue Syndrome. Crickets and food items were dusted alternately with calcium and minerals but not every day. Too much is more dangerous than not enough. All this and lighting keeps the amphibians very healthy. Fortunately there are now plenty of articles that will support the use of UVB for some species.

[Krispy]

I have been keeping frogs and toads for over 50 years and I never thought that amphibians needed special lighting. I learned so much working at the zoo. Some species that I worked with were the Puerto Rican crested toad, Wyoming toad (extinct in the wild), the Panamanian Golden toad, several species of Mantella, reed frogs and other Madagascar species, plus the awesome hellbenders and Japanese giant salamanders. All but the salamanders had UVB lighting or some sort of basking area.

Often times certain species of toads need a dose of vitamin A to prevent Short Tongue Syndrome. Crickets and food items were dusted alternately with calcium and minerals but not every day. Too much is more dangerous than not enough. All this and lighting keeps the amphibians very healthy. Fortunately there are now plenty of articles that will support the use of UVB for some species.

Any specific type/brand of lighting you guys use?

[tgampper]

I use a 50 watt. It provides enough light yet doesn't add much heat.

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[ericbrookey]

I know this is controversial, but I would like to provide my frogs with low UVB light. (And I'll be sure to have it shining through the screen top, not the glass.) Honestly the huge array out there of grow-lights, heat lights, full spectrum and so on is confusing.

I already have Josh Frogs LED gro light in the top, but I think those don't have UVB? At least there would probably be some indication if they did.

I'd just like a small lightbulb sized bulb that gives the smallest possible output of UVB. Under 100 Watts would be good but under 150W would be acceptable.

Not exactly what the OP had in mind but seemed relevant to the thread. I just picked this up at Petco today to replace my massive 36" LED over my 55g FBT tank which I love and I'm going to miss the ramp timer and other features but that will be much more useful on my new fish tank. After reading all this discussion, I decided it was a good idea.

The bulb is a T8 and what looks to be 17 watts and that should provide plenty of UVB without the added heat. The 30" hood doesn't cover the entire width of the tank and since I have plants across the entire width, I put a 20" Aqueon full spectrum aquarium light over the land portion. Will probably time it so the full spec comes on a couple hours first, then the UVB on for 8 hours, then full spec for last two. Not sure if this is going to be too much light for them so may return for the 18 inch version. The depth is about 14 inches so should be ok and they have plenty of hides.

Will I still need to supplement D3 or should I go with a calcium only powder so I don't overdose them? Did I read correctly that they will self regulate D3 directly from the UVB?




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[Diver]

Moderator Note - Post removed. Supplementation is necessary with captive animals. No further posts suggesting otherwise will be accepted.