Question about mice and frogs.

[Roman]

Hey Guys,
Everyone keeps saying that feeding mice to a frog is bad cuz of the fat content. I have a buddy that has had the same frog for 8 years now. Its a giant like you see in the pictures with a head the size of my fist. He feeds it 2 mice a week and has been feeding it rodents since he got it as a baby. His uncle stashed it in a bag coming back from a trip. His frog is active and doesn't bury itself all the time and sings with a big booming voice every night. ( except tuesdays, its Billy Bobs day off ) lol
My question is, why are mice bad? I know in the ball python world people are so worried about exact proper care that they go to great lengths to keep everything exact. They go by popular myths and "expert" advice about their balls rather than common sense and researching on their own to see what the animal really needs. Im not criticizing, ive done it to, just making a point.
Please give me some solid reasons why.

Stay Thirsty my friends.

[onedge30]

Quick and too the point. Frogs are not made to have a high fat diet. This usually leads to liver and kidney problems and early death.

All mouse diet also leads to a weakening of the bone structure. This is due to the lack of calcium in the diet. The frogs system then steals calcium from its bones to live.

[pixiefrogman]

Jeff is exactly right. Although the biggest male pyxie I've seen in person (11 inches SVL) was raised on mice.

[willtilian]

im doubling my mice feeding to 4 a week i want that 11 incher! jk

[Kevin1]

Stashed it in a bag from...??
It is without question frogs fed a rodent diet do grow to be bigger. Mice are far more nutritious than insects. It's just that frogs are not designed to eat mice. They don't deal well with mammalian tissue. I can't imagine a wild pyxie catching a field mouse..can you?

[willtilian]

actaully i could see a mouse at waters edge drinking in the wet season and then you hear jaws music *!BAM!* one happy frog

[Roman]

Ok. I am in agreement with the not feeding a full diet of only mammal meat. But, how did Billy Bob live to 8 then? Wouldn't he have had some kind of cardiac arrest or, adult onset diabetes?
He had it in a hard plastic container coming back from a business trip. I was there when BB was introduced to the family. My buddy was into exotic, hard to come by pets. What better for his appetite than a baby giant frog. I want to say it was indonesia but, who knows... I don't think Mr. ------ has ever been to africa.

[onedge30]

Ok. I agree that the more knowledge you have, the better you can judge optimum care.

BUT...... the one lady that lived to be 115 drinking and smoking everyday - does not mean that that 'diet' is optimum. When the lady down the street, that died at 30, being a complete vegetarian. Just saying....

Everyone is a unique system unto themselves. You have to use some reasoning.

[Kevin1]

actaully i could see a mouse at waters edge drinking in the wet season and then you hear jaws music *!BAM!* one happy frog

Well I don't know if you've ever witnessed wild rodents. I can tell you they're nothing like captive rodents. MUCH MUCH quicker and MUCH more alert/leery. Pyxies are far to slow.

[Kevin1]

Ok. I am in agreement with the not feeding a full diet of only mammal meat. But, how did Billy Bob live to 8 then? Wouldn't he have had some kind of cardiac arrest or, adult onset diabetes?
He had it in a hard plastic container coming back from a business trip. I was there when BB was introduced to the family. My buddy was into exotic, hard to come by pets. What better for his appetite than a baby giant frog. I want to say it was indonesia but, who knows... I don't think Mr. ------ has ever been to africa.

Like Jeff said there are always exceptions. But your right to question it. Maybe we(general pyxie hobbyists) don't have the husbandry down right. If you think about it, In nature these frogs have millions of choices. In captivity they live in a box, very little options there. Reptiles choose different temperatures for different purposes, like digesting, and digesting different food items, cycling, healing, or sleeping. Amphibians are different than reptiles we know this but they are cold blooded and need external heat too.
Just some food for thought.

[onedge30]

Hey, just remembered ..... DON'T forget the Giant Bullfrog that ate 17 baby cobras, for a snack!!

http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatre...ullfrog-meals/

[findiviglio]

Hi, Frank Indiviglio here.

I posted the article on thatreptileblog concerning the African Bullfrog consuming 17 young spitting cobras. Re the rodent discussion, during my many years at the Bronx Zoo, we found a number of problems in several species that seemed linked to a diet high in rodents. Usually involved animals that were largely insectivorous in the wild, but would consume a mammal on occasion...i.e. basilisks, White's treefrogs, tiger salamanders, frilled dragons (corneal opacities, liver/kidney problems).

Not many field studies, but one that ex. stomach contents of thousands of adult marine toads in Venezuela found that none had consumed vertebrates; I've worked in the area in which the study was conducted, and observed that there were ample small vertebrates available.

Fast growth rate, large size is not an indication that a diet is healthy, nor is ages of 8-10 years for species such as African Bullfrogs (record is 50+, 20's common). Most vertebrates do offer a good Calcium/phosphorus ratio, high calcium levels etc, but in general, whole FW fishes are a better choice than mice for most amphibians, insectivorous lizards. Pinkies can be used on occasion, but furred mice usually not a good idea.

Please see this article for more info, and also the article referenced there re high cholesterol in Cuban Treefrogs and please feel free to post comments/questions.

Enjoy, Frank

[onedge30]

Thanks for the reply Frank. Great info.

[Roman]

Thanks Frank,
I had pretty much decided to not feed a steady diet of mice, just roaches and worms. Now, Ill add in the fish you spoke of and see where that takes us. What kind of fish do you recommend?

Stay Thirsty

[onedge30]

Went out and bought some of Zoomeds jumbo Can o' Grasshoppers, to try. Nice size feeders. About 2 inches plus, but little can, only 1.2 oz or 16(?) grasshoppers. It lasted me two days with 3 juvenile frogs. I would need the bonus pounder pack to even get started!!

[Kevin1]

Did they like them Jeff? I thought about doing that with Chubbz. I remember John(Clare) saying something about them being less nutritious since they're cooked(in the can).

[onedge30]

Kevin, yea, they did like them. But again, unless I can get quantity - even cost is high. They are 'juicy' in the can!

Chubbz would eat the whole can for a snack!

[Leefrogs]

I'm going to try the fresh water fishes. I have to drive very far to get live crickets. But minnows, wax worms, and nightcrawlers are avalible year round since I live in a fishing vacation spot. I do drive 80 miles round trip to get 100 crix for month. Trying to breed them. We'll see bout that. But--these fish are bread for fishing purposes (but seem healthier that Petco's) and are clean of disease. So this article helped quite a bit-- I want my whites to be BIG

[onedge30]

I'm going to try the fresh water fishes. I have to drive very far to get live crickets. But minnows, wax worms, and nightcrawlers are avalible year round since I live in a fishing vacation spot. I do drive 80 miles round trip to get 100 crix for month. Trying to breed them. We'll see bout that. But--these fish are bread for fishing purposes (but seem healthier that Petco's) and are clean of disease. So this article helped quite a bit-- I want my whites to be BIG

Whites are tree frogs. Think what they would eat. I don't think fish would be very high on the list. I would think insects(roaches, crickets, mealworms) would be first. I would only use fish for less than 20% of the overall diet. What about ordering crickets or giant mealworms? They can be delivered to your door, cheaply. I can keep giant mealworms in a 5 gal bucket for months.

[Leefrogs]

all my friends want to buy my whites a pinkie. No way, too gross. If they wana see a rodent get eaten, they can buy my python a rat. And I worry bout impaction with the meal worms, looked at supperworms same thing. I wasn't going to go all fish. Most of all I was responding to franks comment. Whites were in his list of frogs he feeds fish. I think the bait shop as a great variety of sizes also, from 1/2 inch up to sturgeon size bait. I tried to get local bait distributer to order me some crix or roaches, but that's a southern fishing thing. He just looked at me funny and laughed. I wonder how much more he wouldve laughed if I told him what it's for.